Went to the premier tonight for season 3. It's terrific again...really great. The cast spoke, the writers, director, etc...another great year if you are a G.O.T. fan. The dragons are growing up.
Lucky man. Can't wait for #3.
Winter is coming......
I never knew Kahlisse is actually a brunette.
I can't quite figure out where season 3 will end. The red wedding seems like a good finale. Thoughts?
Excited for this season, looks like it could be great based on the trailer. Last season was painfully slow, though I heard it was kind of a set up for things to come.
I can't quite figure out where season 3 will end. The red wedding seems like a good finale. Thoughts?
I never knew Kahlisse is actually a brunette. http://hollywoodlife.com/pics/game-of-thrones-red-carpet-pics-season-3-premiere/#ref=/2013/03/19/game-of-thrones-red-carpet-premiere-season-3-pics/pos=
Love G.O.T. Psyched for the season.
Usually, I can talk my wife into watching "my" shows. She's even learned to love Sons of Anarchy, which is the opposite of a chick show. But for some reason I can't convince her to watch this. I do know she hates British accents, so maybe that's it. (But she likes James Bond, so maybe not.)
Oh well, her loss.
Guess I'll have to wait a few weeks and grab season 3 on bit torrent like the 1st two seasons
Seriously. If HBO would just create a way for me to give them money I would. I'm hoping that Netflix producing original content will make them realize that selling HBO GO as a standalone is a good idea.
Actually a horrible idea and they've said why on many occasions. They would lose their arse. Today, they don't deal with acquiring customers, servicing customers (call centers, etc, etc), infrastructure, etc
This is a simple math exercise and they come out losing if they do. If HBO could make more money, they would do it. They can't, which is why they don't.
Would it be that difficult to make HBOGo a pay site/app?
Yes because all of us doing the heavy lifting for HBO would scream bloody murder. We have to incur the 20,000 agents, the billing, the marketing, etc.
That's the dilemma for them. They have 29 million subscribers that they don't bill or service today. Tremendous cost they avoid
Or maybe it wouldn't be that difficult....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/21/hbo-go-without-cable_n_2926926.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
I never knew Kahlisse is actually a brunette. http://hollywoodlife.com/pics/game-of-thrones-red-carpet-pics-season-3-premiere/#ref=/2013/03/19/game-of-thrones-red-carpet-premiere-season-3-pics/pos=
The tall woman in season 2 (Gwen Christie), the knight...wow, real life she is every bit that tall. I would say 6'3" or so
Lena Headley is smoking hot in real life...also a brunette.. Stana Katic also there.
The one that surprised me the most is Michelle Fairley, who plays Catelyn Stark. She looks so haggard on the show with makeup. She is much more attractive in person than I would have gathered.
A lot of fun. I'm a geek for the show so I was like a kid in a candy store at the after party. Peter Dinklage (Tyrion) was there, Kit Harrington (Rob Snow) and a host of others. They had the iron throne on display along with some very cool props. Good times.
So, halfway through the season now. How's everyone liking it?
[no book spoilers or your typing hands will suffer the fate of Kingslayer's right hand]
So, halfway through the season now. How's everyone liking it?
[no book spoilers or your typing hands will suffer the fate of Kingslayer's right hand]
Chapman: No spoiler here, but I believe the finale (or close to) will be the "Red Wedding", which is a game changer, off the charts, holy sh*t moment. I have read the books, so do not, repeat do not, WIKI anything regarding the show.
There are actually two wikis, which is really cool. Game of Thrones Wiki only covers the show so it's very useful for getting background, the related A Song of Ice and Fire wiki covers the books so I avoid that one.
OK, but avoid that other one for sure.
Get back to this thread in a few weeks after the "Red Wedding" and your thoughts.
There are actually two wikis, which is really cool. Game of Thrones Wiki only covers the show so it's very useful for getting background, the related A Song of Ice and Fire wiki covers the books so I avoid that one.
The season has been a bit slower than past, but the writers are setting things up for some huge plot twists regarding all the characters. Things will change dramatically soon.
The acting is outstanding and last night's interaction between Jamie and Brienne in the baths was Emmy worthy acting as was Tryon telling Cersai and Tyrion that that have to marry Sansa and Lord Tyrell to gain control of the Seven Kingdoms. HBO's work effort in everything, including the actors, set design, costumes, etc. is first class and rivals bigtime movies.
Chapman: No spoiler here, but I believe the finale (or close to) will be the "Red Wedding", which is a game changer, off the charts, holy sh*t moment. I have read the books, so do not, repeat do not, WIKI anything regarding the show.
For those who have read the books, I understand they are splitting A Storm of Swords over this season and next (which actually makes sense to me). How do you think they'll handle A Feast for Crows? Will they let it stand alone or will they sort of blend it with A Dance With Dragons over a couple seasons of the show? Speak in general terms so as not to spoil. But seriously if you haven't read the books get off your unnatural carnal knowledgein lazy ass and ream em. Read em in the crapter if you have to.
I'm sure they will blend the stories. No one wants to see certain characters missing for a couple of seasons. Also, ADWD and AFFC take place during the same time. What we will probably see is 4-5 seasons from those two books. The timelines will be different from the books. And it could be 4 or 5 depending on how far GRRM is with TWOW.
Seriously, even speaking that name is a huge spoiler. Really dirty move. If you watch the shows you shouldn't even come to this thread.
I have especially enjoyed the last two episodes, especially the 4/21 show. Edge-of-my-seat stuff. Agree wholeheartedly that the bath scene and the Tryon-Cersai-Tyrion in this week's episode were outstanding.
A fun, addictive, typically fantastic HBO production.
Khaleesi is a badass. Admittedly not the greatest actor but her character intrigues me. I thought the Starks would be the characters I would be "rooting for" in this show but I have come to admire Khaleesi and hope she regains her throne. I also find myself aligning with Jaime Lannister.
Something I find very interesting is that people who watch the show only refer to her as Khaleesi. People who have read the books tend to call her Dany or Daneyrs
Khaleesi is a badass. Admittedly not the greatest actor but her character intrigues me. I thought the Starks would be the characters I would be "rooting for" in this show but I have come to admire Khaleesi and hope she regains her throne. I also find myself aligning with Jaime Lannister.
Even more of a badass in person. Brunette as well. She was quite stunning.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KrKFgYDxp04/UUhb9MwKt9I/AAAAAAAAqzk/6a3eZMsGTlQ/s1600/163975351.jpg)
weird shoulder bones
2/10 would not bang
Wow Chicos I was unaware she was a brunette. Stunning indeed.
Khaleesi (Emilia Clarke) was Seth MacFarlane's squeeze for a while. He dumped her a couple months ago, which just goes to show there's no accounting for taste.
He's lucky she doesn't sick her dragons on him.
I love saying "Khaleesi" and I haven't read the books. So, for me, Khaleesi it is!!
I love saying "Khaleesi" and I haven't read the books. So, for me, Khaleesi it is!!
Khaleesi is actually her title rather than her name. Khaleesi is the feminine form of Khol (as in Khol Drogo). Khol is effectively Khan or King, and Khaleesi is Queen.
Khaleesi is actually her title rather than her name. Khaleesi is the feminine form of Khol (as in Khol Drogo). Khol is effectively Khan or King, and Khaleesi is Queen.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uNfdJnKhdAg/T_SBGUdZ1rI/AAAAAAAAFCs/uQGjpl2YDMc/s1600/Nerd+alert.gif)
OK. I also sometimes call the president "President," my doctor "Doc," and the guy who captained our Maui adventure trip "Captain."
Anyone else watch last night? That was brutal.Should have suspected something like this. Ned Stark's beheading was a surprise when it happened. When does King Joffrey catch a bone up his arse?
I only read the first book. Last night's episode was brutal. Did not see it coming until just a couple of minutes before the fun started, and I usually spot plot twists a mile away.
D and DB did a really good job with it. They didn't throw it all over the previews last week which really helped. As someone who read the books, I think it was captured pretty perfectly, and I couldn't sit still (was watching with my SIL so I had to stay tight lipped).
All I can say is....just wait....more to come
Listen to Grantland podcast, two of their TV guys have only watched the series, and not read the books (like myself) theorized for the TV show to continue Benioff and Weiss may need to take more creative licensing to the story to make it more digestable for the TV viewer, which for folks like me, and probably 80% of the viewers (who have only watched the show and not read) would be fine by me.
In terms of what? Two more books of content? As far as the pinnacle of the series, the RW is the most jaw dropping, book throwing moment you will see. Nothing in the books has come close because once the RW happens, you realize that literally anyone can die at any time.
Its a great show, a better book series, but no one will ever be shocked like that again. Well, maybe in a few years.... maybe. ;)
Listen to Grantland podcast, two of their TV guys have only watched the series, and not read the books (like myself) theorized for the TV show to continue Benioff and Weiss may need to take more creative licensing to the story to make it more digestable for the TV viewer, which for folks like me, and probably 80% of the viewers (who have only watched the show and not read) would be fine by me.
Chicos. I agree with you, but I think the RW was the pinnacle... As rough as it was on TV, the book was far more brutal.
Agree. End of book 5 is going to get many folks riled up.
I still think the RW is the pinnacle. Not only does it signal that anyone can die, but it completely terminates the primary plot (Stark v Lannister) of the first three books.
Also, related to the books / show overlap, I read that the TV producers only plan on doing seven seasons worth of the show. Given that book three is two TV seasons with some additional character development (like Theon/Reek), I fully expect books four & five to get condensed down. I also expect parts of book four to start getting introduced into the next TV season.
Finally, D&B have been told how the series is supposed to end. Just keep that in mind
I'll just say that I disagree about the Stark vs. Lannister plot being dead.
What makes you say that?I think the obvious choice is Jon Snow, but this show has been anything but obvious. Let's say Bran and Tyrion end up ruling Westeros.
In the show:
Ned, Cat, and Robb are dead. Jon Snow is with the Wildlings. Arya is with the Hound. Sansa is useless. Bran is going north. Rickon is more useless than Sansa.
Which remaining Stark has the capabilities, resources, or commitment to take down the Lannisters?
What makes you say that?
In the show:
Ned, Cat, and Robb are dead. Jon Snow is with the Wildlings. Arya is with the Hound. Sansa is useless. Bran is going north. Rickon is more useless than Sansa.
Which remaining Stark has the capabilities, resources, or commitment to take down the Lannisters?
Arya's constant nightly hit list recital, also, Jon Snow is no longer with the Wildlings, and Bran seems destined for more than sitting up in the North.
I think the Starks position is stronger than most people think. Winterfell is still very valuable. If Bran can control animals, then that is a pretty useful power to have when dragons ultimately are thrown into the mix in Westeros at some point. I am interested to see if he can control the walkers.
Agree, the most powerful Starks are still very much alive, just young. In one of the only worthwhile scenes last night we saw what Arya could be capable of now that she's had every bad thing happen to her at least once. Bran might be able to win a war without getting out of bed. Rickon's young but has no fear, may not be a warg but has visions (roaming the crypts after Ned died).
Enjoyed the book vs. show interpretation of the wedding; starting with Robb meeting Jeyne/Talisa through to the wedding they really took two different approaches to telling the story, and both were well done.
Also interested in how they pace the remaining content in a total of 7-8 seasons. They covered over half of Storm of Swords page-wise, but what remains could definitely fill next season without going much/any further and still be better paced than this season.
I think they are going to have to combine the books into next season (Captain Obvious I know) but otherwise you are going to lose touch with some of the main characters because they don't have their viewpoints given in some of the books
Why does the show have to only be 7-8 seasons? Why can't it be 10? I think people will stay interested long enough. I'd rather see them do the books justice than try to squeeze 2-3 books into a season to fit some arbitrary deadline
A Feast For Crows/A Dance With Dragons will certainly run parallel, since the timeline is mostly the same in the books as well. Will be curious to see how much of either makes its way into season four.
I think they'll do a good job at consolidating some of the drawn out details of books 4-5 based on how they handled some of the lengthiness of plots so far. They've been dead set on drawing out the story and banking on maintaining success for six or seven more years. I think it's very doable to hack away at the fat in FFC and ADWD and get to 2 seasons or slightly less, but think it could be tough to fit in the last two books in 2 or less seasons and not make it seem rushed, if they're forecasted to be 1200+ pages each and with the amount of story that it seems they'll have to cover.
Why does the show have to only be 7-8 seasons? Why can't it be 10? I think people will stay interested long enough. I'd rather see them do the books justice than try to squeeze 2-3 books into a season to fit some arbitrary deadline
I'll just say that I disagree about the Stark vs. Lannister plot being dead.
GOT season was second highest watched program in HBO history, behind The Soprano's fifth season. No failure in this mini series.
Due to aging of actors, they may film final seasons all at once, just like Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings and what he did with The Hobbitt.
Many more twists/turns/characters/settings to come, so stay tuned.
BTW, the acting of almost every character is off the charts. Peter Dinklage won an Emmy/Golden Globe in 2012.
Which actor/actress do you believe should get a nomination next month, or your favorite?
My choice: Charles Dance who plays Tywin Lannister. Just unreal as the head Lannister.
Second: Nikolaj Coster-Waldau who plays Jaime Lannister. That scene with Brienne in the bath house was rivating.
Both are great, I think that Rose Leslie is perfect as Ygritte.
I think the problem really lies in that with such a large cast the amount of money they will eventually have to spend on salary to keep actors around will explode.
If they were smart, they did their deals so they are locked in with escalators based on whether the series continued beyond season 1. I'm going to the True Blood premiere tomorrow night in Hollywood with HBO....I'll ask the question.
If they were smart, they did their deals so they are locked in with escalators based on whether the series continued beyond season 1. I'm going to the True Blood premiere tomorrow night in Hollywood with HBO....I'll ask the question.
Second: Nikolaj Coster-Waldau who plays Jaime Lannister. That scene with Brienne in the bath house was rivating.
I don't get why those who have read the books enjoy watching the show knowing exactly what all the huge stunners are going to be.
Maybe it's just the sports fan in me, but I HATE knowing even what might happen. I want every episode to be like a blank canvas, the same way each athletic event is.
If I knew for certain that Tiger Woods or the Heat or the Patriots were going to win, I wouldn't bother watching the game, even to see how they do it. I refuse to watch the Olympics on tape delay. For me, it's all about getting to the stirring conclusion -- of the sporting event or of the show.
I mean, I LOVED that I had no clue that Ned Stark was going to get killed. Right up until one second before the blade cut his head off, I thought he was going to be spared. When he was killed, I was amazed/stunned/aghast/enthralled/hooked.
But hey, I guess that's just me.
It isn't a sport to me. It is more like reading all the Batman comics as a kid and then seeing them come to life on a movie screen. Its seeing something you loved on pages entertain people on a TV screen that wouldn't normally be into that genre.
I don't get why those who have read the books enjoy watching the show knowing exactly what all the huge stunners are going to be.
Maybe it's just the sports fan in me, but I HATE knowing even what might happen. I want every episode to be like a blank canvas, the same way each athletic event is.
If I knew for certain that Tiger Woods or the Heat or the Patriots were going to win, I wouldn't bother watching the game, even to see how they do it. I refuse to watch the Olympics on tape delay. For me, it's all about getting to the stirring conclusion -- of the sporting event or of the show.
I mean, I LOVED that I had no clue that Ned Stark was going to get killed. Right up until one second before the blade cut his head off, I thought he was going to be spared. When he was killed, I was amazed/stunned/aghast/enthralled/hooked.
But hey, I guess that's just me.
So I'm a hybrid on this one. I'm a voracious reader of many things and often read books that appear on tv or film. Tom Clancy novels I used to love seeing on film and felt they largely held their own on the screen. Jack Reacher...was pathetic on the screen vs the book(s). For GOT, I'm doing the reverse, watching the series and then going back and reading the books. That way I'm not spoiled by it. However, having to do business with HBO on a daily basis, I know enough about the plot lines for the next few series based on the books, scripts, etc that I pretty much know what happens without having read books 3, 4 or 5 yet...I'll have book 3 done this Summer I would guess. It also helps me to read later to fill in the gaps because the show has so many stories going on at one time and shifting from one to the next to the next that it's often difficult to follow the characters and who is who.
Jack Reacher books really that good? Looking for some summer reads, should I start at the beginning? Saw the movie, just eh, was unsure about the books.
Confirmed with HBO tonight that GOT actors are locked up under contract.
Including Dinklage? Read that he was a holdout.
Unless they were giving me wrong information, they said all the actors were locked up during season 2.
SPOILER: DON'T CLICK ON THE LINK UNLESS YOU'VE READ ALL OF THE BOOKS.
You've been warned.
http://squarelyrooted.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/narrative-structure-in-asoiaf/ (http://squarelyrooted.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/narrative-structure-in-asoiaf/)
The blog post breaks down ASOIAF books by looking at the character narrative and total content. Then he groups them into two Acts (Act one: books 1-3; Act two: books 4-5) and provides some additional commentary. His general argument is that the narrative structure of the book is a key part of the story as well.
Note: The Starks take up over 54% of the narrative structure in the first three books, and that is even after removing Jon Snow from that family for books two and three (since he is technically a member of the Night's Watch). Because the Starks dominate so much of the first three books, it's just a general reinforcement for the shock of Ned's death and the Red Wedding.
My take...
I'm not sure I agree with his approach on Tyrion, who he splits out from the Lannisters. I personally think that it makes more sense to have him as a Lannister regardless of how he may act differently from his family sometimes. And then it makes me question which family, if any, will dominate the third and final act.
Again, don't click if you haven't read all the books. But if you have, it's interesting.
SPOILER: DON'T CLICK ON THE LINK UNLESS YOU'VE READ ALL OF THE BOOKS.
You've been warned.
http://squarelyrooted.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/narrative-structure-in-asoiaf/ (http://squarelyrooted.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/narrative-structure-in-asoiaf/)
The blog post breaks down ASOIAF books by looking at the character narrative and total content. Then he groups them into two Acts (Act one: books 1-3; Act two: books 4-5) and provides some additional commentary. His general argument is that the narrative structure of the book is a key part of the story as well.
Note: The Starks take up over 54% of the narrative structure in the first three books, and that is even after removing Jon Snow from that family for books two and three (since he is technically a member of the Night's Watch). Because the Starks dominate so much of the first three books, it's just a general reinforcement for the shock of Ned's death and the Red Wedding.
My take...
I'm not sure I agree with his approach on Tyrion, who he splits out from the Lannisters. I personally think that it makes more sense to have him as a Lannister regardless of how he may act differently from his family sometimes. And then it makes me question which family, if any, will dominate the third and final act.
Again, don't click if you haven't read all the books. But if you have, it's interesting.
Bump. Can't wait for tomorrow night. There's a marathon on HBO right now, too.
Have been watching this weekend up until the games came on tonight. Pretty fired up.
Never seen it; hope I never do. Not a clue what it is about, yet I hate it.
Never seen it; hope I never do. Not a clue what it is about, yet I hate it.
Can't even get HBO GO to load right now!!!
What's the cheapest way to go about getting Game of Thrones? I've never seen it, so I'd like to watch in bulk sometime soon.
Can't even get HBO GO to load right now!!!
What's the cheapest way to go about getting Game of Thrones? I've never seen it, so I'd like to watch in bulk sometime soon.
What's the cheapest way to go about getting Game of Thrones? I've never seen it, so I'd like to watch in bulk sometime soon.
HBO picked up season 5 and 6
HBO picked up season 5 and 6
HBO picked up season 5 and 6
No comments on last night's episode yet?
The end was so satisfying. I can't wait to see where it goes from here
I'm giving it a 2 day moratorium before commenting since people may not be caught up
Loved the hell out of it.
I literally was on the edge of my seat during the final 15 minutes because I knew something big was going to happen. I just felt it, because I haven't read the books. I didn't expect that, though. Wow!
Agree with Bleu. I already am looking forward to next week's episode big-time.
Without spoiling anything this season...
Enjoy this season, the next couple might be a little slower. A lot of cool stuff will still happen, but the pace of this season will be unmatchable. I hope that people who haven't read the books will be patient with the rest of the series.
Too early to discuss specifics?
I don't think so. People have had 36 hours. If they don't want to get spoiled, they probably shouldn't be on the internet at all.
Agreed. But please don't say what happened next in the books.
I didn't read them. I have no imminent plan to read them. And I like to be surprised when I watch this kind of show.
I would have hated to know in advance how this episode ended, just as I would have hated to know how Red Wedding ended and would have hated to know that Ned Stark's life was ended.
I haven't read the books, but rewatching the past 2 episodes let me piece together who did what. But yes, I feel like this season is building into something big
Without spoiling anything this season...
Enjoy this season, the next couple might be a little slower. A lot of cool stuff will still happen, but the pace of this season will be unmatchable. I hope that people who haven't read the books will be patient with the rest of the series.
I think they'll be able to find action by integrating book 4 and 5 into season 5/6. My uneducated guess is that they hit the 4th/5th books chronological synchronization point somewhere around late season 5/early season 6. All the plot that's happening at the same time but split between books 4 and 5 will be shown side-by-side in season 5.
The show has the benefit of knowing where things are headed in Books 6/7 so they can accelerate/decelerate pace as necessary. My biggest concern is that late seasons of GOT will spoil Book 7 for readers.
I am holding out hope that they film the rest of the series and then shelf the last season or two if the books aren't out yet... and make a Robert's Rebellion season in the interim with other actors. It would be easily done, and could let GRRM finish the books up and save face. If the books are eclipsed by the TV show, that is a massive blunder for GRRM.
I have heard from friends who have read the books that they expected the events of the 2nd episode to happen in the 4th or 5th episode. So this season is already progressing at breakneck pace relative to the books.
Fun fact,
George RR Martin wrote the last television episode.
How about that episode, huh?
(http://i.imgur.com/34RtY8Z.gif)
What is the MU Scoop over / under on how many years George Martin Has left. He does kind of look like a coronary arrest on legs, after all.
I don't actually care that much if he finishes the books or not. Sure, reading them is enjoyable, but at this point I'm more interested in knowing how the story ends. The TV show will do a fine (and arguably tighter) job of doing that.
The show will likely be deviating from the plotlines that Martin has.
Decent start, as usual mostly setup. Really looking forward to the story at the Wall this season, and how they handle Tyrion's journey.
For those who don't binge watch previous season the weeks, days, hours leading up to the season premiere episodes like last night are necessary because of everything going on. Needs to re-establish characters and start rebuilding on them. Only thing that stinks is its 10% of the season. Oh well...its necessary.
Who else has the first four episodes on their laptop?
I had a friend who's a major fanboy and read the books before watching the show and he said 95% of the time the show improved things when they made changes from the books.
Does there come a point where Martin gets hamstrung by what the tv show presents versus the previous paradigm? Is this a totally stupid line of discussion?
I don't actually care that much if he finishes the books or not. Sure, reading them is enjoyable, but at this point I'm more interested in knowing how the story ends. The TV show will do a fine (and arguably tighter) job of doing that.
Watched the premiere using HBO Now. Ordered through Apple (will switch when Amazon gets it ~July), watched on a Windows laptop. No issues at all - well done, HBO.
When factoring what would be practical for the show versus books, I'd say it's about evenly divided between an improvement, worse, or the same either way. Some things are logical and well done - they combine characters from books into one show character very well without missing anything. Others suck - they have completely botched the Stannis character, one of the fan favorites from the books. This season should have more changes - Sansa seems to be on a path far more interesting than the books; Jaime on one that will cause them to forgo one of my favorite scenes in all the books.
The books won't lose their value. There are a ton of theories, hidden messages, and other things that unfold/will unfold in the books; even though the show has been pitched as believing people are smart and can follow it compared to most dumbed-down programming, it's still a drop in the water of the books.
absolutely. I think the previous quote of 95% of the time they improved is an overstatement. Having read the books, you notice so many more nuances, character development, more characters, and a lot of foreshadowing.
The books will always be canon to me, with the show being an abridged version (Readers Digest version).
I've been reading A Song of Ice and Fire for 15 years. He'd better finish the freaking books!and Vince Flynn too.
It was bad enough with Robert Jordan died without finishing the Wheel of Time series! Gah!
So what happens if the show has to move on without the books because they aren't done in time. Does that ruin the books or ruin the show or neither? Does that put Martin in a box or will it be ok with the show goes a completely different direction than the books to wrap it up?
Side note, how many books are there out now and how many left to finish the series?
absolutely. I think the previous quote of 95% of the time they improved is an overstatement. Having read the books, you notice so many more nuances, character development, more characters, and a lot of foreshadowing.
The books will always be canon to me, with the show being an abridged version (Readers Digest version).
I think that is pretty normal. I've never seen a movie/show that captures an entire book.
I've been reading A Song of Ice and Fire for 15 years. He'd better finish the freaking books!
It was bad enough with Robert Jordan died without finishing the Wheel of Time series! Gah!
I think that is pretty normal. I've never seen a movie/show that captures an entire book.
Am I the only one who stopped watching this show because they keep killing all the people I like?Most likely
Am I the only one who stopped watching this show because they keep killing all the people I like?
Meh - I still don't really care. There are plenty of othernerdfantasy books out there to read.
GRRM is like Three Floyds. It's pretty good beer, but there are lots of other really good beers out there that don't have the distribution issues or attitude. The TV show is a fine substitute for finishing the books.
Other authors I would recommend:
Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Peter V. Brett, Patrick Rothfuss, Scott Lynch, Anthony Ryan.
Thanks for the suggestions, I don't have many people to talk about this with.
My bookshelf is packed with RA Salvatore and Terry Goodkind.
I need to get back into reading for fun instead of just reading management books!
I haven't yet checked out Salvatore and Goodkind, but will give them a shot. Any specific recommendations?
If you are looking at the list of authors, start with Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. I also really liked the Night Angel trilogy from Weeks.
I liked-- but didn't love-- Game of Thrones. I sat down to watch the first episode of the new season and just felt overwhelmed. The two minutes of "Previously on GOT" was filled with some many story lines, I wondered why I would even try to watch anymore.
I know I'm pathetic, but I've become too lazy to care about everything going on in this series.
Anyone catch last nights EPIC episode. Highlight of the series for me up to this point.
Anyone catch last nights EPIC episode. Highlight of the series for me up to this point.
I thought the whitewalkers attacking Hardhome was more shocking. Burning the princess at the stake was horrible.
It was an OK episode...but they totally butchered Stannis' character. Not in the good "lets make this guy a villain way" but in the "lets just ruin this guy's character in the most pathetic way possible." It seems like the writers really didn't know what to do with his character arc and just copped out.
Completely agree. And putting it on GRRM in their after episode comments was lame. Yes, he told them Shireen is sacrificed in the next book (which was expected); but they went out of their way to do it in a way that completely misses the point from how Martin has set it up to happen.
As a non-book reader... Care to explain how it's setup in the books?
Shireen/Selyse/Mel are at the Wall and not with Stannis. Seems like it's heading to a point where Stannis won't witness it; perhaps not even sanction it. Nor is it setup to be believable that Selyse has last second remorse/regret as she was depicted to have last night.
Shireen/Selyse/Mel are at the Wall and not with Stannis. Seems like it's heading that Stannis won't witness it; perhaps not even sanction it. Nor is it setup to be believable that Selyse has last second remorse/regret as she was depicted to have last night.
Shireen/Selyse/Mel are at the Wall and not with Stannis. Seems like it's heading to a point where Stannis won't witness it; perhaps not even sanction it. Nor is it setup to be believable that Selyse has last second remorse/regret as she was depicted to have last night.
I'm lukewarm on this season. There are a lot of things I don't like. Last night's sacrifice of Shireen was certainly up there. I also didn't like the twist with Ramsey tormenting Sansa. Totally unnecessary twist. I mean...we know from the whole Reek thing that Ramsey is an awful human being. We also know that Sansa was tormented by Joffrey. Having her endure that again while reinforcing that Ramsey is awful is just unnecessary.
Sure, there have been some good moments this season, but there have also been some spectacular low points and not in a good way. This is why I didn't like it when they started deviating from the books in Season 2. I get it, a lot of people read the books and you want to spice it up for them, but GRRM is bloody enough with his main characters. You don't need to further kill/abuse/torture characters, especially ones like Shireen (one of the few innocents and already tormented by Greyscale) and Sansa (already been through this ringer before), just for the sake of "keeping it interesting."
I hate to be one of "those people" because I get creative license, but they are quite literally abusing it this season.
If it makes you feel better about Shireen, the idea to torch her came from Martin, who apparently told Weiss and Benioff that'll be her fate in the next book. As brutal as the scene was, I completely disagree with the complaint that it was for the sake of "keeping it interesting." To the contrary, it was essential to the character arc of Stannis, who we shouldn't forget not only is not a good guy, but someone who has burned people and sacrificed family before for the sake of his ambition.
The show character, at least. The book character is all about his duty. The total botch of the character has been the biggest miss in adaptation, IMO.
This season seems somewhat less focused to me. Before, they had the densely written source material. This year, they have the cliff's notes outlines. Maybe because I know it, I am looking for it.
Yea. Night's King > Dragon rider. The princess burning was absolutely coming since stannis left the wall, but it was still pretty terrible.
Cbb - I think I recall you're a big fan of the show. Why the change?
I'm lukewarm on this season. There are a lot of things I don't like. Last night's sacrifice of Shireen was certainly up there. I also didn't like the twist with Ramsey tormenting Sansa. Totally unnecessary twist. I mean...we know from the whole Reek thing that Ramsey is an awful human being. We also know that Sansa was tormented by Joffrey. Having her endure that again while reinforcing that Ramsey is awful is just unnecessary.
Sure, there have been some good moments this season, but there have also been some spectacular low points and not in a good way. This is why I didn't like it when they started deviating from the books in Season 2. I get it, a lot of people read the books and you want to spice it up for them, but GRRM is bloody enough with his main characters. You don't need to further kill/abuse/torture characters, especially ones like Shireen (one of the few innocents and already tormented by Greyscale) and Sansa (already been through this ringer before), just for the sake of "keeping it interesting."
I hate to be one of "those people" because I get creative license, but they are quite literally abusing it this season.
To be fair, I am pretty sure Ramsay tortured "Sansa" in the books as well, just turns out it wasn't really Sansa. So, it was kind of a confluence of two story lines into one, and they had to decide if it was going to follow more Ramsay or Sansa
There seems to be a lot more "tut-tut"ing about the show that has popped up this year. Shireen is just the latest example, but there was the Sansa rape episode before that.
It's like people forget that the very first episode had several beheadings, brother-sister incest, and the defenestration of a child.
"Game of Thrones" = Awful things happen to pretty much everyone
Who do you guys support for their claim to the throne? And what happened to the two stark boys? That story kinda disappeared.
Who do you guys support for their claim to the throne? And what happened to the two stark boys? That story kinda disappeared.
Bran and Rickon will return in season 6.
Nobody is really worthy of the throne, except perhaps Tyrion and Jon, neither of whom are claiming it.
I agree about who's worthy but neither of them have a legit claim to it. Daenarys and stannis have the most legit claims, I guess if robert's bastard is still alive he has one to. I'd like to see Jon on the throne but doubt that happens.
I think the Dragons clash with the white walkers the whole fire vs ice thing as a war. Somehow I think Jon and Daenarys end up together. It just seems like something that'd happen while fighting the walkers.
There's a pretty good, credible theory out there for why Jon has a very legitimate claim to it.
Yeah I think a buddy mentioned it to me once but it was after a few rounds so I can't recall it. It's based off the idea that his mother was robert's sister right?
No.
It's based on who might be his real father (not Ned) and mother.
I'd rather not detail any more, in case anyone doesn't (or doesn't want to) know, but you can find it out there in the interwebs pretty easily.
Who do you guys support for their claim to the throne?
There seems to be a lot more "tut-tut"ing about the show that has popped up this year. Shireen is just the latest example, but there was the Sansa rape episode before that.
It's like people forget that the very first episode had several beheadings, brother-sister incest, and the defenestration of a child.
"Game of Thrones" = Awful things happen to pretty much everyone
I'm lukewarm on this season. There are a lot of things I don't like. Last night's sacrifice of Shireen was certainly up there. I also didn't like the twist with Ramsey tormenting Sansa. Totally unnecessary twist. I mean...we know from the whole Reek thing that Ramsey is an awful human being. We also know that Sansa was tormented by Joffrey. Having her endure that again while reinforcing that Ramsey is awful is just unnecessary.
Sure, there have been some good moments this season, but there have also been some spectacular low points and not in a good way. This is why I didn't like it when they started deviating from the books in Season 2. I get it, a lot of people read the books and you want to spice it up for them, but GRRM is bloody enough with his main characters. You don't need to further kill/abuse/torture characters, especially ones like Shireen (one of the few innocents and already tormented by Greyscale) and Sansa (already been through this ringer before), just for the sake of "keeping it interesting."
I hate to be one of "those people" because I get creative license, but they are quite literally abusing it this season.
I feel like it is becoming too reliant on special effects, CGI and eye candy....less on the story and character development. Just my two cents.
Bran and Rickon will return in season 6.
Nobody is really worthy of the throne, except perhaps Tyrion and Jon, neither of whom are claiming it.
They went out of their way to let us know that Valyrian steel swords can take down white walkers. Curious to see how that develops. Is there enough Valyrian steel out there to equip a small army?
No, there are very few Valyrian steel swords remaining. Less than 20 I believe, and a good chunk of those are in general areas/families, not explicitly known, location wise.
Dragonglass, which is all over Stannis' castle, is a far more likely weapon.
No, there are very few Valyrian steel swords remaining. Less than 20 I believe, and a good chunk of those are in general areas/families, not explicitly known, location wise.
Dragonglass, which is all over Stannis' castle, is a far more likely weapon.
He doesn't remain dead, just my take. I haven't read the books, I have no spoiler insight. I just have a hunch, much like the guy in the Brotherhood from a few seasons ago that had died 6-7 times.
He doesn't remain dead, just my take. I haven't read the books, I have no spoiler insight. I just have a hunch, much like the guy in the Brotherhood from a few seasons ago that had died 6-7 times.
He doesn't remain dead, just my take. I haven't read the books, I have no spoiler insight. I just have a hunch, much like the guy in the Brotherhood from a few seasons ago that had died 6-7 times.
Some good commentary on the last episode from a guy who has not read the books at all
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-10-recap/
Henry, when you say there are some spoilers, I'm assuming you mean from the books that have not occurred yet? I watched last nights episode but have not read the books at all, so I am definitely trying to avoid spoilers of that nature.
Well, we're back. Of course, they saved the best for the end of the episode. Sad we didn't see Bran yet.
I've got some theories on Melisandre. Really, just two possibilities. 1. She gave her life/age/beauty so that Jon could live or, 2. She gave up on the "Lord of Light" and is just willing to die now.
Thoughts?
Well, we're back. Of course, they saved the best for the end of the episode. Sad we didn't see Bran yet.
I've got some theories on Melisandre. Really, just two possibilities. 1. She gave her life/age/beauty so that Jon could live or, 2. She gave up on the "Lord of Light" and is just willing to die now.
Thoughts?
Well, we're back. Of course, they saved the best for the end of the episode. Sad we didn't see Bran yet.
I've got some theories on Melisandre. Really, just two possibilities. 1. She gave her life/age/beauty so that Jon could live or, 2. She gave up on the "Lord of Light" and is just willing to die now.
Thoughts?
I thought her youth was tied to the necklace she took off
I thought her youth was tied to the necklace she took off
Is this what was going on courtesy of The Onion?
http://www.theonion.com/article/game-thrones-fan-rewatching-past-episodes-remind-s-52796
‘Game Of Thrones’ Fan Rewatching Past Episodes To Remind Self Of What Characters’ Breasts Look Like
NEWS IN BRIEF April 22, 2016
Vol 52 Issue 15 Entertainment · Television
FREMONT, CA—In an effort to refresh his memory ahead of the upcoming season of the popular fantasy series, local Game Of Thrones fan Bryan Parker reportedly rewatched past episodes of the show this week to remind himself of what all the characters’ breasts look like. “I remember most of the characters’ breasts, but there are just so many of them, and a lot of the time there’s a bunch on the screen at once, so I felt I really needed to brush up on them just to be safe,” said Parker, who explained that even after regularly watching the show for five seasons, he still often becomes confused trying to keep track of all the various nipples. “Sometimes I have a hard time following along with the storyline and I mistake Daenerys Targaryen’s breasts for Margaery Tyrell’s, since they’re so similar-looking. Honestly, I had to watch the nude scenes set in Littlefinger’s brothel a few times to remember which breasts were which.” Parker added that he was still upset the show killed off his favorite pair of breasts in season four.
If you want to know if John Snow is really dead, ask the President.
https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2016/04/18/journalists-response-to-obamas-game-of-thrones-privilege-foia/?utm_source=NakedPrivilegeSponsored300&utm_medium=HouseAds&utm_term=April2016&utm_content=NakedExecutivePrivilege&utm_campaign=PJLifestyleTextAds
Shocking no one, Jon Snow was only...mostly... dead. Mostly dead means partially alive. All dead... well, if he's all dead there's only one thing you can do.... go through his pockets and look for loose change.
He must have smelled pretty rank, lying on that table for days.
Most of us surmised that he would come back to life somehow, and at least this show has the magic in it to make it happen (unlike, say, Bobby Ewing on Dallas).
Still, the last 5 minutes was so anticlimactic and cliche.
Witch does magic. Seems to fail. One by one, those who want to believe file out of room, disappointed. Finally, witch leaves, crushed that magic doesn't work. Flash to Snow, flash to wolf, flash back to Snow, flash back to wolf. Wolf opens eyes. Snow, suddenly, opens eyes and gasps for air.
A 9-year-old could have written that.
Not that I have any bright ideas how they should have done it.
They are setting up a pretty nice war between that motherfu@%ing SOB Ramsey's people and Jon's people (including the wildlings). Sub-story: Will Sansa get to Jon in time to be protected?
One little "problem" they are having is with the time arc and the child actors. With the story lines - especially Jon Snow's - we're supposed to believe not much time has passed between last season's end and this season's start. But Sansa, Tommen and especially Arya and Bran look SOOOO much older now.
But hey, we're supposed to suspend reality when watching a show like this, right? I've mostly enjoyed this season's first two episodes. I loved Tyrion's interaction with the dragons.
So this past episode made me believe in the Tyrion is not a Lanister but a Targaryen theory. One question though, would you guys prefer the White Walkers obliviate the Ramsey or to see Jon Snow and his band of merrymen take down Ramsey?
I'm fine with how they brought Jon back. I don't really think there was a way to do it that would have not been cliche or predictable.
Wasn't particularly impressed last night. What did you guys think? On the bright side next week's episode seems like it should be great.
They advanced a few storylines significantly, had some cool scenes, and ended it with a GoT signature "oh sh**" moment.
I think Sansa pushing a hesitant Jon Snow, Baelish and the Vale coming back into the picture, as well as Dany, Tyrion, and Varys now joined by the Dothraki...all that made for a good episode to me. Can't wait. Suddenly the Ironborn and their ships look mighty important.
Also, anyone else think Jon Snow is clearly lying about seeing nothing when he was dead? Like maybe he saw things that terrified him, hence his subdued and somber demeanor?
They advanced a few storylines significantly, had some cool scenes, and ended it with a GoT signature "oh sh**" moment.daenerys targaryen for first women Pres of the US.
I think Sansa pushing a hesitant Jon Snow, Baelish and the Vale coming back into the picture, as well as Dany, Tyrion, and Varys now joined by the Dothraki...all that made for a good episode to me. Can't wait. Suddenly the Ironborn and their ships look mighty important.
Also, anyone else think Jon Snow is clearly lying about seeing nothing when he was dead? Like maybe he saw things that terrified him, hence his subdued and somber demeanor?
Wasn't particularly impressed last night. What did you guys think? On the bright side next week's episode seems like it should be great.
I swear I read somewhere that she was done doing nude scenes.
I swear I read somewhere that she was done doing nude scenes.
I loved that entire scene with Daenerys. All the talk about how everybody was going to f--- her, including the horses, and then she burns them all to a crisp, emerging from the flames in her birthday suit. A really incredible several minutes.
I thought a ton happened in the episode and enjoyed it immensely.
I loved that entire scene with Daenerys. All the talk about how everybody was going to f--- her, including the horses, and then she burns them all to a crisp, emerging from the flames in her birthday suit. A really incredible several minutes.
I thought a ton happened in the episode and enjoyed it immensely.
I swear I read somewhere that she was done doing nude scenes.
Pretty interesting chapter. This season has really moved the plot along. Do we really know Hodor is gone? Will Arya truly become a faceless person? Littlefinger is now in Sansa's dog house. Sad to see another wolf die. Where will the Ironborn civil war lead to. Will Dany be happy with a Red Priestess in charge of Mereen?
Plus, you will now have dueling Red Priestesses who believe they have found 'the one'. (Cue Gaelic Storm Song "Don't go for the one")
OK ... I'm missing something here.
I've seen every episode but something has slipped my mind, and it was such a big part of last night's episode that my lack of knowledge (or poor memory) affected my enjoyment of it.
Why do the white walkers so desperately want Bran dead? Is he now "infected" with something white-walker related? And who were all the little people trying to protect him (and why)?
I know, I know. Roseanne Roseannadanna would say I ask a lot of questions. I'm a big fan of GoT but not one who studies every nuance and, obviously, not one who remembers every detail!
Here's a pretty good explanation.
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/22/11740486/game-of-thrones-white-walker-other-wight
Pretty interesting chapter. This season has really moved the plot along. Do we really know Hodor is gone? Will Arya truly become a faceless person? Littlefinger is now in Sansa's dog house. Sad to see another wolf die. Where will the Ironborn civil war lead to. Will Dany be happy with a Red Priestess in charge of Mereen?
Plus, you will now have dueling Red Priestesses who believe they have found 'the one'. (Cue Gaelic Storm Song "Don't go for the one")Maybe, but not necessarily. Perhaps the one they are looking for is just one bloodline, which is the Targaryens. I'm working on the assumption that Dany (as we know) is daughter of Aerys II and Jon is her nephew, being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen (Dany's eldest brother) and Lyanna Stark. Perhaps the ones the Red Priests are looking for are simply the Targaryen descendants.
OK ... I'm missing something here.Good article shared by brand. A few personal thoughts...the Three-Eyed Raven clearly had power that he could use against the White Walkers. He mentioned in this past episode that he was going to pass his lineage on to Bran. Now Bran has that power (though probably not as powerful or effective yet) and responsibility. The impression I get is that Bran is basically the most powerful of the skinchangers.
I've seen every episode but something has slipped my mind, and it was such a big part of last night's episode that my lack of knowledge (or poor memory) affected my enjoyment of it.
Why do the white walkers so desperately want Bran dead? Is he now "infected" with something white-walker related? And who were all the little people trying to protect him (and why)?
I know, I know. Roseanne Roseannadanna would say I ask a lot of questions. I'm a big fan of GoT but not one who studies every nuance and, obviously, not one who remembers every detail!
Thoughts...Very good post, Brew. The only thing I would disagree with is the bolded statement. As we have seen, several characters that we thought were very important no longer exist.[/list]
.
- Figure Hodor is really gone. Pretty traumatic way to go, and while an interesting character, not one important enough to keep around. Loved the twist that it was Bran's visits to the past that triggered Hodor's seizure and mental trauma that took away his speech, so that Bran essentially created the circumstance that made Hodor so tragic, while all along Hodor dedicated his life (and death) to protecting Bran and keeping him safe.
Very good post, Brew. The only thing I would disagree with is the bolded statement. As we have seen, several characters that we thought were very important no longer exist.
I haven't watched any of this season yet but have been following this thread. I read this review of the latest episode and am curious if this is accurate:
This past week's show is a perfect example of how GOT is still brought down to typical television quality. After last week's great ending, this week they end it on another stupid repetitive Xena: Warrior Princess troop speech acting like anyone gives a crap about a giant obviously fake CG dragon flying in. The shots of the troops getting riled up were unnatural carnal knowledgeing awful. Put that crap in half way through, but to end the show like that is unforgivable. They did that crap a few seasons ago with her freeing the slaves. It's cheesy as crap, made only worse by her speaking in some made up language so you are having to read subtitles. It's like watching Xena, Hercules, or Army of Darkness attempt to not be cheesy or campy but failing.
All the plot holes and continuity errors throughout the past few episodes is a sign of the show struggling to keep the storylines straight. So the queen has been ousted for another heir by her troops... oh look she escaped with all the ships, her brother, and thousands of other troops who apparently ignored the other troops that decided against her with no explanation of how or why. Now her cousin that ousted her is going to have a few dozen troops build a thousand ships on an island with no trees in sight. And instead of her using the thousands of troops to just overthrow and kill the few dozen that revolted against her, she instead sails away to fight them later on once they've grown stronger in ships, men, and arms.
Oh, and by queen I mean the sister of the guy who got his d!ck cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing, not the queen that's the sister of the guy who got his hand cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing.
I haven't watched any of this season yet but have been following this thread. I read this review of the latest episode and am curious if this is accurate:
This past week's show is a perfect example of how GOT is still brought down to typical television quality. After last week's great ending, this week they end it on another stupid repetitive Xena: Warrior Princess troop speech acting like anyone gives a crap about a giant obviously fake CG dragon flying in. The shots of the troops getting riled up were unnatural carnal knowledgeing awful. Put that crap in half way through, but to end the show like that is unforgivable. They did that crap a few seasons ago with her freeing the slaves. It's cheesy as crap, made only worse by her speaking in some made up language so you are having to read subtitles. It's like watching Xena, Hercules, or Army of Darkness attempt to not be cheesy or campy but failing.
All the plot holes and continuity errors throughout the past few episodes is a sign of the show struggling to keep the storylines straight. So the queen has been ousted for another heir by her troops... oh look she escaped with all the ships, her brother, and thousands of other troops who apparently ignored the other troops that decided against her with no explanation of how or why. Now her cousin that ousted her is going to have a few dozen troops build a thousand ships on an island with no trees in sight. And instead of her using the thousands of troops to just overthrow and kill the few dozen that revolted against her, she instead sails away to fight them later on once they've grown stronger in ships, men, and arms.
Oh, and by queen I mean the sister of the guy who got his d!ck cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing, not the queen that's the sister of the guy who got his hand cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing.
I haven't watched any of this season yet but have been following this thread. I read this review of the latest episode and am curious if this is accurate:
This past week's show is a perfect example of how GOT is still brought down to typical television quality. After last week's great ending, this week they end it on another stupid repetitive Xena: Warrior Princess troop speech acting like anyone gives a crap about a giant obviously fake CG dragon flying in. The shots of the troops getting riled up were unnatural carnal knowledgeing awful. Put that crap in half way through, but to end the show like that is unforgivable. They did that crap a few seasons ago with her freeing the slaves. It's cheesy as crap, made only worse by her speaking in some made up language so you are having to read subtitles. It's like watching Xena, Hercules, or Army of Darkness attempt to not be cheesy or campy but failing.
All the plot holes and continuity errors throughout the past few episodes is a sign of the show struggling to keep the storylines straight. So the queen has been ousted for another heir by her troops... oh look she escaped with all the ships, her brother, and thousands of other troops who apparently ignored the other troops that decided against her with no explanation of how or why. Now her cousin that ousted her is going to have a few dozen troops build a thousand ships on an island with no trees in sight. And instead of her using the thousands of troops to just overthrow and kill the few dozen that revolted against her, she instead sails away to fight them later on once they've grown stronger in ships, men, and arms.
Oh, and by queen I mean the sister of the guy who got his d!ck cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing, not the queen that's the sister of the guy who got his hand cut off that she was unnatural carnal knowledgeing.
Although I could have done with one less pep rally from the Khaleesi, I enjoyed the episode and have enjoyed the season.
You, on the other hand, have been spared the horrors of this season because you haven't watched it. But you nonetheless have formed an opinion of what you haven't watched.
Sounds like you should not watch this season, give up on GoT and find something you prefer.
Hopefully that something isn't drawing more conclusions on shows/movies/plays/concerts you haven't seen.
Where did I "form an opinion/draw any conclusions"?
Maybe you should fix your OP. It currently reads like the quote you're referencing is your opinion.
I thought it was pretty clear but maybe now brandy etc. will find it clearer. I don't like using the quote box for that long of a quote because of the small text used.
Oh...one more interesting thing I read this week. Because of the death of Myrcella, there is now no clear heir to the Iron Throne were Tommen to die. As all of Cersei's offsprings' deaths have been foretold, have to figure this spineless one isn't long for this world either. Anyway...Myrcella's death leaves no heir, which means kicking back up the family tree. As Stannis and Renly have both died, there are no Baratheons at all who could claim the Iron Throne legitimately, so the claim falls to the Lannisters. Because Jamie is Kingsguard, he has forsaken his claim to the Throne, and Tyrion's crimes would likely discount him as well.
All this means the current lawful heir to the Iron Throne is...Cersei Lannister! Kind of makes you wonder if she might figure it out and off Tommen herself for the power. If there's anyone who could outdo the Mad King, Cersei might be it...
Great stuff. Didn't copy all of it, but wanted to comment on the last of this. Particularly the prophesy and Cersei taking over the throne. I don't think she survives to.
I think Tommen's prophesized death was symbolic; he has now chosen to align with the Church, who punished his mother. I think that is his symbolic death.
I think Cersei will now see her own demise at the hands of the church. I am a proponent for an epic battle between "the mountain" and "the hound". For reasons I won't go into, I don't think the hound is actually dead, but is aligned now with the Church. I think the Church, choses "the hound" as its champion, who finally gets to get revenge against his brother. Cersei then loses her trial by combat and is put to death...ironically because of her own child.
I can't remember the exact details/protocol behind the trial by combat, but I think it'd be a great decision if the Church could choose Jamie.
Return of the Hound. Ian McShane is great in whatever he does. His death clearly starts what will end up being a showdown between the Hound and the Mountain. Lady Mormont is one bad-ass 10 year old. House Tyrell is forever. I knew she was playing the zealot. She's good. Seeing Jamie Lannister get punked after punking those incompetents made me laugh.
Thought we'd never get to see the Jaime / Blackfish Siege of Riverrun, being three years since the Blackfish was last seen and after that horrible Dorne excursion last season. They did it well. I need to hear one more epic quote, and I'll be thrilled with the entire thing.
Return of the Hound. Ian McShane is great in whatever he does. His death clearly starts what will end up being a showdown between the Hound and the Mountain. Lady Mormont is one bad-ass 10 year old. House Tyrell is forever. I knew she was playing the zealot. She's good. Seeing Jamie Lannister get punked after punking those incompetents made me laugh.
Lady Mormont is my biggest complaint about last night's episode. It wasn't believable for a kid.
I rather enjoyed her, but I know a lot of very precocious little kids.
And I literally laughed out loud when, after all that back-and-forth, she said she only had 62 troops to offer.
I also guess I found Lady Mormont every bit as believable as dragons. Or White Walkers. Or Snow coming back to life. Or Tyrion being a bad-ass warrior. Or any number of other things that one finds in a fantasy series.
That's all fair. Just didn't hit home with me. If the actor was a few years older....15 or 16, I would have bought it
That's all fair. Just didn't hit home with me. If the actor was a few years older....15 or 16, I would have bought it
That's all fair. Just didn't hit home with me. If the actor was a few years older....15 or 16, I would have bought it
I can understand this. A lot of the way I look at it is to remember it was a different age. At 12-13 you married and started a family. Kids like here were groomed from birth to be rulers/leaders. They were used to tragedy death etc.
It is tough for us to believe, but she was actually probably an actual portrayal of good child leaders then. To us though, it looks like a kid pretending to be an adult and is unbelievable.
Overall though. Awesome episode. Not a ton of action, but one of the best episodes.
I can understand this. A lot of the way I look at it is to remember it was a different age. At 12-13 you married and started a family. Kids like here were groomed from birth to be rulers/leaders. They were used to tragedy death etc.
It is tough for us to believe, but she was actually probably an actual portrayal of good child leaders then. To us though, it looks like a kid pretending to be an adult and is unbelievable.
Overall though. Awesome episode. Not a ton of action, but one of the best episodes.
Haha, You know this is fiction, right? It was not a different age. It never happened.
I just find it unbelievable (in the literal sense of the word) that a child would have such confidence and intelligence. Yeah, dragons and magic and all that...none of it is real..I get it...I guess I just have some weird arbitrary limits on fantasy, and this one crossed it. Carry on.
Haha, You know this is fiction, right? It was not a different age. It never happened.
I just find it unbelievable (in the literal sense of the word) that a child would have such confidence and intelligence. Yeah, dragons and magic and all that...none of it is real..I get it...I guess I just have some weird arbitrary limits on fantasy, and this one crossed it. Carry on.
So who's dying in the next two episodes? Any guesses?
Don't watch the show or read the books....casually follow online and social media so I'm at least familiar.....any feel if the Lady Stoneheart storyline is going to happen on the show?
Don't watch the show or read the books....casually follow online and social media so I'm at least familiar.....any feel if the Lady Stoneheart storyline is going to happen on the show?
Don't watch the show or read the books....casually follow online and social media so I'm at least familiar.....any feel if the Lady Stoneheart storyline is going to happen on the show?
Maybe it's just me, but have things become predictable? At least when it comes to overarching storylines. Seems like the writers (in having to go their own way) are making decisions to please fans. We're less doom and gloom and surprise deaths and negative events for "good" characters, etc.
Also, how dumb is Rickon? Try running in a zig zag. Or turn around to see when he's releasing an arrow then change directions once it's released.
Ha ha. My wife and I were thinking the same thing.
Maybe it's just me, but have things become predictable? At least when it comes to overarching storylines. Seems like the writers (in having to go their own way) are making decisions to please fans. We're less doom and gloom and surprise deaths and negative events for "good" characters, etc.
Game of Thrones is no longer a show where anything can happen
It's more predictable now — but that's a good thing.
Y'all think daenerys is starting to go a bit mad? Or was it just a quick homage to her father?
Did I get this right that Jon is Robert Baratheon's son and Ned Stark's nephew? Looks like all the women are going to rule Westeros.
Lyanna said "If Robert finds out, he'll kill him". Lyanna was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar Targaryen. So Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, which is why the Kingsguard were defending the Tower in the earlier vision. Given that Robert would certainly have killed him, Ned had to raise Jon as his bastard.
That's the way I took it as well. Technically makes him the nephew of Daenarys too.
That's the way I took it as well. Technically makes him the nephew of Daenarys too.
That's the way I took it as well. Technically makes him the nephew of Daenarys too.
Which I suppose would eliminate the possibility of a Jon-Dany marriage, no?
On Game of Thrones? Nah.
Dany's parents were brother and sister, after all.
Which I suppose would eliminate the possibility of a Jon-Dany marriage, no?
When they reigned, Targaryens were legally allowed to 1) intermarry, and 2) take two wives (though the Faith pressured them into avoiding it). So #1 is possible, and #2 explains how Jon could be true born and not just Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's.
Anyone know if George RRRRRR Martin had any siblings or hot cousins or something?
Let the bloodletting begin!
It's almost here people!
You talkin' about the show ... or about winter?!?!?
It's impossible for Jon to be the mad king's son right? Like this isn't going to be a "gotcha" moment next season...
I realize this is ancient, but Jon is the Mad King's grandson, and nephew to Dany.
As for the rest of this thread. Can't wait til Sunday. Been discussing random GOT theories with coworkers for the last month.
A girl takes her revenge.
Also, so much diarrhea
The perfect beginning to the season
Also, so much diarrhea
Fun, enjoyable season opener.
A few observations ...
I'm really getting a kick out of Lyanna Mormont. What a brassy little girl - reminds me of my daughter at that age!
As Arya approaches those singing men in the forest, I'm thinking: "Man, that guy has a great voice!" And then - boom! - it's Ed Sheeran!
I couldn't believe Sansa argued so vociferously with Jon in front of everybody. Jon's reaction was perfect, including his private conversation later.
Arya, Sansa, Lyanna, Cersei, Daenerys, Yara, Brienne ... that's one bad-ass group of ladies, as strong a group as has ever been on TV, IMHO.
Looks like Sam and the Hound will have expanded roles this season.
Not enough Tyrion, especially after he was featured so prominently in "previously on." I'd have rather seen a lot more Tyrion and a lot less diarrhea!!!
I'm hoping Littlefinger is unable to turn Sansa and Jon against each other. It seems too obvious so I hope they don't go in that direction.
Great episode all around. The opening was brilliant and I love that they're paying it off from three seasons ago. Amazing that this is the same little Arya that was chasing cats in the castle.
I also hope Sam takes a backseat this season. It was somewhat amusing, but probably could've been accomplished in half the time.
Figure Euron is going straight after Tyrion. Part of me was waiting to see his ships in the background as Dany and Tyrion settled into Dragonstone.
Be interested to see if the surviving Stark children ever all come together. A bit surprising the remaining kids have survived this long.
Also amazing Cersei has survived. Sansa made a good point about how everyone who has ever come after her has died. Who would have pegged her lasting this long and sitting on the Iron Throne? Yet The North Remembers...
Other than the intro, mostly just setup, but a great episode in that they really gave a nice precursor to the season to come. Lots to be excited about.
Yeah, between the shuffling of books and the cleaning of crap, Sam was on screen way too much and doing way too little. I actually like the Sam character, but we could have gotten the gist in about 4 minutes.
How many episodes will this season have? Is it going to be one of those deals like the Sopranos' "final" season, where they split it?
Only 7 episodes, unfortunately. The finale is supposedly 80 minutes.
And 6 episodes for season 8, but I've read that the episodes could be 80 minutes long.
Thanks. I wish they would just do it in one 13-episode season, but I guess I understand why they don't.
Anyone notice the dagger that was drawn in Sams book is the dagger used to try to assasinate Bran? Had to be a reason they did that
Great way to start the season. Can't believe 2018 no Game of Thrones and we have to wait until 2019 for the final season. BOO.
Great way to start the season. Can't believe 2018 no Game of Thrones and we have to wait until 2019 for the final season. BOO.
Great way to start the season. Can't believe 2018 no Game of Thrones and we have to wait until 2019 for the final season. BOO.
So we get 13 episodes total in a 3 year span. Ugh.
So that's one interesting way to get rid of grayscale
Ugh everything about that storyline is dumb. So you're saying this ancient, banishment worthy disease can just be cured by... cutting it off? And we know about this but don't try it because the maester can get sick? And why does Sam care that much? Because he knew Jorah's old man? Even though Jorah more or less tells him he was disowned? Seems kind of insufficient considering Sam's other self-identified goal is saving the world through his study of a how to defeat an undead army. And Sam also has his own family. But you know, Jorah, you seem like a good enough guy that he'll risk all that for this stupid, dangerous treatment.
Ugh everything about that storyline is dumb. So you're saying this ancient, banishment worthy disease can just be cured by... cutting it off? And we know about this but don't try it because the maester can get sick? And why does Sam care that much? Because he knew Jorah's old man? Even though Jorah more or less tells him he was disowned? Seems kind of insufficient considering Sam's other self-identified goal is saving the world through his study of a how to defeat an undead army. And Sam also has his own family. But you know, Jorah, you seem like a good enough guy that he'll risk all that for this stupid, dangerous treatment.
Loved how they did the sea battle. Euron is a little more mad than I pictured from the books but I kind of love it. The stare down at the end where Theon eventually crumbles was filmed beautifully and the crazy laugh from Euron sealed it.
Just gotta say, from a strategy standpoint, I think you should have at least one dragon flying escort when the brunt of your fleet is transportting your most valuable ally home to lead her armies. One dragon and that entire battle goes the other direction.
Euron seems way too strong right now. Handles the sand snakes with ease? If I'm remembering correctly, these were the same girls who dominated bronn and Jaime. And what happened to their weapons being laced with poison?They were the worst developed characters on the show and were unbearable (even to their last scene in the hammocks). I'm fine seeing them go.
They were the worst developed characters on the show and were unbearable (even to their last scene in the hammocks). I'm fine seeing them go.
Euron seems way too strong right now. Handles the sand snakes with ease? If I'm remembering correctly, these were the same girls who dominated bronn and Jaime. And what happened to their weapons being laced with poison?
They were the worst developed characters on the show and were unbearable (even to their last scene in the hammocks). I'm fine seeing them go.
They were the worst developed characters on the show and were unbearable (even to their last scene in the hammocks). I'm fine seeing them go.
Its been three years since I read the books, but I seem to recall something in the books about Euron claiming to be immortal or gaining some otherworldly power from his time overseas. Maybe this has something to do with that? There also is significant difference to fighting on a boat vs fighting on land. Euron would have the advantage. He did seem to take some shots to the legs though that should have hamstrung him.
I do agree though, I think the Sand Snakes and their mother were the worst adaptations from the books. Loved Oberon but the rest of Dorne has been a let down.
So does anyone think sam discovers jons heritage in one of those old rotting books? Or discovers anything interesting?
Well, he did discover a cure for Jorah's creepin' crud!
Don't overthink it.
Don't overthink it.
My exact thoughts as I read brew's post.
Also, good call on the dragonglass, too. Those two events already have justified Sam being sent to the dusty library from hell. And yet I STILL hated them wasting so much time on Sam in the first episode; could have given at least 10 minutes to something more interesting without sacrificing the story line, IMHO.
Next episode should be interesting. It will be the shortest GOT episode ever (50 minute runtime), but will likely have the largest and longest battle in GOT history.
It's poor storytelling. If they spread it out so it takes a few weeks, fine. Instead, we go from Euron capturing the Sand Snakes to his parade through King's Landing to the other side of Westeros (the long way, by ship) in under an hour of screen time.
And meanwhile, it seems like a day or two has passed for Dany. How long did it take for Ned and Robert to ride to King's Landing the first season? Seemed like it was weeks if not months.
I don't know, it's just a frustration as they go further and further away from published canon they seem to leave more plot holes and time discrepancies.
You must have missed how long it took varys to cross the sea, twice. Or Dany and her army. Or Jon snow from Winterfell to Dany. Or Arya.
Etc etc
The writers have stated that episodes aren't in a "next day" timeline. Whether between episodes or even during them
I'm good with Euron being better in combat than we'd think, since he seems to be the combination of Euron and Victarion, who was really the one that would crush some skulls for fun.
Do we know if Euron was actually at Casterly Rock? If he sent most of the fleet ahead while he stopped at King's Landing it would make more sense from a timing standpoint.
Think the Robert trips to/from Winterfell were supposed to be about a month each. But they were traveling with the King's procession, which would seem to be turtle pace.
Glad the Sand Snakes are done. Not sure why they decided to expand upon them in the series and either minimize or not include the actual interesting Dornish characters. Kind of makes sense to do it in order to start to consolidate the plot, but a little disappointing that we may never hear from Dorne or the Stormlands again. Or the Reach, unless you could Randyll Tarly, who is pretty awesome.
I don't remember seeing any hints of a battle in the preview. What makes you say there'll be a battle?
You must have missed how long it took varys to cross the sea, twice. Or Dany and her army. Or Jon snow from Winterfell to Dany. Or Arya.
Etc etc
The writers have stated that episodes aren't in a "next day" timeline. Whether between episodes or even during them
It's poor storytelling. If they spread it out so it takes a few weeks, fine. Instead, we go from Euron capturing the Sand Snakes to his parade through King's Landing to the other side of Westeros (the long way, by ship) in under an hour of screen time.
And meanwhile, it seems like a day or two has passed for Dany. How long did it take for Ned and Robert to ride to King's Landing the first season? Seemed like it was weeks if not months.
I don't know, it's just a frustration as they go further and further away from published canon they seem to leave more plot holes and time discrepancies.
OK, all that time has passed, so home Cersei's hair hasn't grown back?
Many of those are since they went ahead of book, but the problem here is that Euron was following Grey Worm. If it's one traveler, it's easier to suspend disbelief or accept their timeline didn't exactly match up.
This is different. Grey Worm sailed to Casterly Rock. In that time, Euron met with Cersei, intercepted the Sand Snakes, destroyed half of Dany's fleet, sailed back to King's Landing, paraded through the streets, met again with Cersei, then sailed to Casterly Rock from an even further distance than GW, and arrived almost simultaneously.
Perhaps there was supposed to be an implication that they laid siege to the rock for a bit? That or euron wasn't kidding when he proclaimed himself "the storm" and can create winds to make his boats faster
Saw a clip of brienne and arya fighting. Sansa was watching and did not look too pleased
Saw a clip of brienne and arya fighting. Sansa was watching and did not look too pleased
I wonder if Pod getting slammed to the ground is in losing to Arya.
Sunday's ep has leaked and is on the torrent sites.
You watch it yet? It's taking a lot of restraint not to
You watch it yet? It's taking a lot of restraint not to
People who have read the leaked Season 7 scripts say episode 6 will blow this away and might be at the top of the list of best eps when all is said and done.
Don't get how people can be that impatient to read the leaks.
That being said, and I'm no expert and will need to rewatch the series, but I think Hardhome may be my favorite.
Breaking Bad is my favorite drama. This has a chance when all is said and done.
I have zero interest in "cheating" and looking ahead. I enjoy not knowing what I'm about to watch - kind of like with sports.
How is Jaime going to get out of the water? I doubt he can swim with a gold hand and a suit full of armor. All I can think is Bronn saves him, again. Unless Tyrion looking from afar is able to send some of his men after him to the bottom of the lake.
How is Jaime going to get out of the water? I doubt he can swim with a gold hand and a suit full of armor.
How is Jaime going to get out of the water? I doubt he can swim with a gold hand and a suit full of armor. All I can think is Bronn saves him, again. Unless Tyrion looking from afar is able to send some of his men after him to the bottom of the lake.
The question becomes if Jamie lives does tyrion help him escape the way Jamie did or will he show his loyalty to Danny?
Anyone notice the dagger that was drawn in Sams book is the dagger used to try to assasinate Bran? Had to be a reason they did that
Excellent question.
Of course, Jaime can live (somehow) and escape (somehow) without being Dany's prisoner.
Can't wait for episode 5!
One thing I'm fairly certain of: As much as GoT likes to kill off major characters, I'm pretty sure they aren't killing off Jaime. Women fans wouldn't like that! (But notice how I only said "fairly" certain.)
Possible but on the trailer it looked like they were still on the battlefield so I imagine it'd be hard to escape but stranger things have happened
Possible but on the trailer it looked like they were still on the battlefield so I imagine it'd be hard to escape but stranger things have happened
I am surprised they had no disclaimer stating that no animals were harmed in the filming of this episode.
It's poor storytelling. If they spread it out so it takes a few weeks, fine. Instead, we go from Euron capturing the Sand Snakes to his parade through King's Landing to the other side of Westeros (the long way, by ship) in under an hour of screen time.
They never showed Euron at Castley Rock. Just Greyjoy ships. if Dany can split her fleet and send it two places I'm sure Euron can too.
They showed his ship though and made a point to zoom in/focus on it, doubt that he just gives up command of that...
Loved the last scene of the last episode. Thought it was done in a very realistic way...meaning if dragons were real, that's exactly how id imagine one would use one in combat.
So many important things happened in that battle. Iron bank likely won't side with Cersei. Dragons introduced to Westeros in a very terrifying way. Tyrions loyalty to Dany is now in question. We now know that the scorpions can work against dragons and so does Dany. Dany will be a lot more hesitant with her dragons from now on methinks.
I think Jaimie gets rescued and captured in the next episode. How will Dany handle having an important prisoner... Who also literally stabbed her father in the back.
What I liked the most is that I wasnt cheering for anybody during the battle. I wanted both sides to win and neither side to lose. That's how well this show has developed all of these characters. I'm invested in most of them. I have no idea who I want to see sitting on the iron throne when this is over.
Loved the last scene of the last episode. Thought it was done in a very realistic way...meaning if dragons were real, that's exactly how id imagine one would use one in combat.
So many important things happened in that battle. Iron bank likely won't side with Cersei. Dragons introduced to Westeros in a very terrifying way. Tyrions loyalty to Dany is now in question. We now know that the scorpions can work against dragons and so does Dany. Dany will be a lot more hesitant with her dragons from now on methinks.
I think Jaimie gets rescued and captured in the next episode. How will Dany handle having an important prisoner... Who also literally stabbed her father in the back.
What I liked the most is that I wasnt cheering for anybody during the battle. I wanted both sides to win and neither side to lose. That's how well this show has developed all of these characters. I'm invested in most of them. I have no idea who I want to see sitting on the iron throne when this is over.
What I liked the most is that I wasnt cheering for anybody during the battle. I wanted both sides to win and neither side to lose.
Loved the last scene of the last episode. Thought it was done in a very realistic way...meaning if dragons were real, that's exactly how id imagine one would use one in combat.
Almost positive the iron bank will side with cersei. They've made too many hints about the gold company for them not to be hired and make a big impact
Was anyone else thinking that Dany and the dragon should have made the second pass at Bronn from behind? She saw the huge arrow that just missed them the first time. That was the first thing I thought of when she was making her second her second pass. (Of course its easier to think from your couch than in the middle of a battle). I don't think he could have got that thing turned around in time, and there was nothing else threatening the dragon.
I am always thing stuff like that when watching movies. Like why did Luke go miles down that long tunnel where he was a sitting duck and then take a shot that had to miraculously take a 90 degree turn to drop straight down at the precise right moment instead of just shooting at the opening from above it?
Yeah, they are going to get a ton of hate mail from those wacky "Save the Dragons" folks.
Actually during the battle scene a Dothraki horse was poked by a spear, Bronn's horse had his leg cut off by a Dothraki warrior and Jamie's horse was barbecued by Drogon. I lost count on how may humans were killed though.
Thank you! I always thought that about a new hope. But I'm pretty sure they showed Bronn rotating the scorpion so he could have kept it trained on Dany. Plus, I don't think Dany really controls the flying. Drogon is probably used to being the baddest thing in the sky. He's just going to charge something head on.
Was anyone else thinking that Dany and the dragon should have made the second pass at Bronn from behind? She saw the huge arrow that just missed them the first time. That was the first thing I thought of when she was making her second her second pass. (Of course its easier to think from your couch than in the middle of a battle). I don't think he could have got that thing turned around in time, and there was nothing else threatening the dragon.
I am always thing stuff like that when watching movies. Like why did Luke go miles down that long tunnel where he was a sitting duck and then take a shot that had to miraculously take a 90 degree turn to drop straight down at the precise right moment instead of just shooting at the opening from above it?
Dany did go from a different angle/approach. Bron spun it around
They went through the trench to avoid the surface/tower lasers and to force any enemy fighters to come at them from one direction (behind). I think that was stated
Dany did go from a different angle/approach. Bron spun it aroundh
They went through the trench to avoid the surface/tower lasers and to force any enemy fighters to come at them from one direction (behind). I think that was stated
The banker also repeated "when the gold gets here" like 12 times. That gold ain't getting anywhere
Randyll Tarly explicitly stated the last of the gold was through the gates of King's Landing.
My son wanted to know why the wagons that the dragons set ablaze exploded, saying, "It's not like they were full of dynamite or gasoline or anything."
Maybe they had some of the stuff that Cersei used to blow up all of her enemies?
I think it was more just rapid combustion. It appears the fire has some thrust behind it. So I think its a combination of very combustible wood objects being incinerated and them being demolished like if a large rock hit them. I imagine if a catapult threw a flaming boulder, it would be similar, and the fire from Drogon might be even more concentrated.
Lady Stoneheart sighting??
http://time.com/4895235/game-of-thrones-lady-stoneheart-arya-brienne-scene/
1:14 in this video walking in the background
Plus, did know know much about Littlefinger's family background from Braavos, and why he recognized the fighting style of Arya.
https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Littlefinger-Braavos-Connection-Game-Thrones-43858266
(https://realradreads.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/john-green-gif.gif)
That article about littlefinger is seriously intriguing. Not sure if there's enough time for that much back story in littlefinger though. I think it's more likely that it'll be a book thing
This is a recap of Leslie Jones's running commentary through the last episode. It's a little long, but it is spectacularly funny all the way through. Going forward, I want to watch all new GoT episodes at Leslie's place.
https://www.youtube.com/v/tvcrwTcA5iw
The only backstory you need on littlefinger is that, in a previous life, he was Baltimore mayor Tommy Carcetti!
This is a recap of Leslie Jones's running commentary through the last episode. It's a little long, but it is spectacularly funny all the way through. Going forward, I want to watch all new GoT episodes at Leslie's place.
https://www.youtube.com/v/tvcrwTcA5iw
Usually not a big fan of her schtick on SNL, its a bit trite, but this was far more natural and really funny.
Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/v/SQ44aQWnH4I
Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/v/SQ44aQWnH4I
Usually not a big fan of her schtick on SNL, its a bit trite, but this was far more natural and really funny.
Littlefinger and Arya are headed for a showdown. Way to pull the bastard son of Robert Baratheon out of a hat. I'm not sure that the plan to go capture a single white walker is the best. And am I the only one who thinks (1) The Baratheon bastard looks like a young Christian Bale, (2) The crew going out past the wall is reminiscent of the Magnificent 7?
Absolutely looks like Bale.
A great episode.
The biggest revelation being that Jon Snow - rather than Dani - is the rightful heir to the iron throne.
I used to be in the pro Danny Jon romance camp but it's getting played up like an Disney channel Jr high romance at this point. I'd honestly prefer it almost to be a begrudging political marriage over the doe eyed goodbyes and candle light cave art dates
And totally glossed over by Sam. As soon as Gilly was cut off I started screaming "No, that's huge, that's huge!" Rhaegar marrying Lyanna means Jon isn't a bastard and is the legitimate Targaryean heir, since Rhaegar would've been first in line after the Mad King.
At this point, I just want to see Arya go on a killing spree. Kill Littlefinger, Cersei, the Mountain, and anyone else left on the list. I keep feeling like somehow, when all is said and done, Cersei or her child will still be sitting on the Iron Throne.
Jamie has already killed one mad king for the good of the realm. Just sayin'.You're quite prophetic (wink wink).
Jamie has already killed one mad king for the good of the realm. Just sayin'.
And totally glossed over by Sam. As soon as Gilly was cut off I started screaming "No, that's huge, that's huge!" Rhaegar marrying Lyanna means Jon isn't a bastard and is the legitimate Targaryean heir, since Rhaegar would've been first in line after the Mad King.
At this point, I just want to see Arya go on a killing spree. Kill Littlefinger, Cersei, the Mountain, and anyone else left on the list. I keep feeling like somehow, when all is said and done, Cersei or her child will still be sitting on the Iron Throne.
But to be fair to Sam, that really wouldn't be that big of a deal to him, right? Since he has no inclination other than Jon Snow is Ned Stark's bastard.
Additionally, and I won't pretend to know this, especially in fictional realms, but would the son of a king's firstborn be further ahead in line rather than the king's daughter? I'm guessing so, as why else would they drop that bit of knowledge in the episode.
Jamie has already killed one mad king for the good of the realm. Just sayin'.
If I'm reading it right, once the Mad King died, it would first go to Rhaegar. As he was dead, the lineage would follow him first, so any legitimate surviving children of Rhaegar would be the first heir. His line was exhausted because the Mountain killed Rhaegar's known wife, Elia Martell, and her children. Then it would go to Viserys (second born) and any of his children, then Dany (third born) and any of her children.
However, last night we learned that Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was annulled and he was presumably married to Lyanna Stark. That means the line of succession goes back to Rhaegar and any legitimate children he had. Because Jon is now a legitimate heir to Rhaegar, his claim would supersede any Dany has.
Gotcha, I haven't read any of the books and don't read a ton of other stuff about it, so I was unsure on the timing of deaths.
I thought Rhaegar was killed prior to the Mad King dying, so then it would go to Viserys and then Dany, instead of going down Rhaegar's line.
If I'm reading it right, once the Mad King died, it would first go to Rhaegar. As he was dead, the lineage would follow him first, so any legitimate surviving children of Rhaegar would be the first heir. His line was exhausted because the Mountain killed Rhaegar's known wife, Elia Martell, and her children. Then it would go to Viserys (second born) and any of his children, then Dany (third born) and any of her children.
However, last night we learned that Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was annulled and he was presumably married to Lyanna Stark. That means the line of succession goes back to Rhaegar and any legitimate children he had. Because Jon is now a legitimate heir to Rhaegar, his claim would supersede any Dany has.
So how did Jamie and Bronn get from (while underwater) one side of the lake to the other with his set of armor and huge sword weighing him down?
And when they get out of the water, they barely seem tired? C'mon.
So random thought about the Fellowship/Suicide Squad. The majority of these guys are essentially undead in some way or another. The hound was essentially dead before a miracle, John and Berrick were actually dead, Jorah was a dead man walking for all intensive purposes, Gendry was a similar case when he was sold to the red priestess and Stannis. I don't recall anything with Tormund or Thoros being "born again" but I don't think that this is a coincidence that this much of the group has died/been essentially dead and is about to face a massive army of the dead.
New episode was leaked
Found this pretty hilarious as it pertains to the geographic and timeline discrepancies in Thrones
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHTfFRnUIAAQ45u.jpg)
Wow.
Leaked episode?
Yes, it lives up to the hype, and then some. I'm leaving for a vacation, so I wasn't going to be able to see it on Sunday, and didn't want anything spoiled, so I watched.
I would advise to stay off of youtube. People are posting all the important scenes with the spoilers in the title, just to be jerks.
The picture quality is really good, btw.
Yes, it lives up to the hype, and then some. I'm leaving for a vacation, so I wasn't going to be able to see it on Sunday, and didn't want anything spoiled, so I watched.
I would advise to stay off of youtube. People are posting all the important scenes with the spoilers in the title, just to be jerks.
The picture quality is really good, btw.
Yeah I watched it. My haw was on the floor pretty much the whole time. I'd honestly watch that episode over 5 of the lord of the rings movies
Okay, knock it off. I am respectfully requesting an end to these comments as I would like to watch it in a legitimate manner - with my HBO subscription.
Also, why do you think it is okay to take delivery of stolen goods here? Is it any different than buying a TV that "fell off the truck"?
Well these are HBO subscribers I'm guessing so stealing is a reach, more like people watching on Sunday had it on layaway all week?
Okay, knock it off. I am respectfully requesting an end to these comments as I would like to watch it in a legitimate manner - with my HBO subscription.
Also, why do you think it is okay to take delivery of stolen goods here? Is it any different than buying a TV that "fell off the truck"?
A) I said nothing that gave away anything. Outside of it being a great episode. I'd never post a spoiler, respect everyone's wishes to watch at their own pace. What I said was no different than my roommate telling me to go see Dunkirk because it was a fantastic movie and better than saving private Ryan.
B) I pay for HBO, thus it's not stolen. It'd be like me buying something and going to the warehouse to take it before it comes out officially. I did pay for it, just didn't wait for the shipment.
C) is the reason you're singling me out because you know I'm in my mid 20s whereas the other individual is an unknown age and thus you can't "mom them"?
It was a general comment. Not a big fan of any non-authorized streaming of music, video, etc.
The only things I non authorize download are original EPs that aren't available anymore which amounts to roughly 5 songs and that band has gotten loads of money from me with tshirts, tickets, cds and Spotify. Beyond that I pay for Spotify pay for Amazing prime pay for Netflix etc.
Quite the nutty episode. Did not expect a dragon to go down and be turned...but really good that they got the dragon/army of the dead interaction in. Was not expecting that until the very end of the series, and really ups the stakes now.
As far as the accelerated timing, it put Euron's teleportation to shame...apparently "send a Raven" now means a text message and dragons are equipped with hyperdrive.
This was my thought as well. I had heard rumors awhile back of a dragon dying. Entering this episode I pretty much had decided it was impossible to happen. It would take an extreme employment of suspension of disbelief to think that a raven would be able to make it to dragon stone, and then the dragons make it to the battle, before the ice froze on a lake, or the people died of starvation/hypothermia.
Well, apparently they went there and time frame wise this one was a bit too absurd.
Quite the nutty episode. Did not expect a dragon to go down and be turned...but really good that they got the dragon/army of the dead interaction in. Was not expecting that until the very end of the series, and really ups the stakes now.
As far as the accelerated timing, it put Euron's teleportation to shame...apparently "send a Raven" now means a text message and dragons are equipped with hyperdrive.
Oh, my. So what will the zombie ice dragon shoot out of its mouth?
Worse than that is the arya/Sansa stuff
Worse than that is the arya/Sansa stuff
Yeah, also not a fan of that.
Seems pretty clear at this point that when they are out of GRRM source material and having to go their own way entirely that they struggle a bit with the story telling/realism.
I actually liked that. They didn't like each other before they got separated and with all the both of them have been through they must have PTSD ten times over by now. Its natural that they would be suspicious and paranoid of each other.
This is a show about dragons and an army of the dead and people are complaining about realism in terms of travel time.
Has anyone plotted out the distance in miles and how fast ravens and dragons fly?
FFS, the show is amazing - enjoy it.
While I really appreciated the action, I hated this episode in a lot of ways. Mostly because I'd come to expect a level of "difference" from GoT as it compares to other fantasy or dramas.
-There was tons of talk of a dragon being killed. Once the scorpion didn't get the job done, I figured it would be the Walkers. It seemed simple to predict.
-The sequence of the PERFECTLY timed Deus Ex Machina with the dragons, then the Night King having a spear that naturally he throws in a perfect rocket arc. The Scorpion hurt Drogon and forced him to land. Yet this spear hit Viserion like a Sidewinder missile? Come on. And then the ending was ATROCIOUS. They magically have huge thick chains to pull him out of the depths of a lake. And then from the second you saw the pull crew, I said out loud "the Night King is going to turn Drogon, his eye will open blue, and that will be the end of the episode"...ta da! It all played out like lazy fan fiction.
Tormund was fantastic this episode at least. His dialogue continues to be some of the best in the show. When he nearly was dragged into the water by the Walkers, I was going to be very upset, but at least thats the type of HOLY S*** moment you expect from GoT. Instead everything was too clean.
I see this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense. There is a fantasy world that contains dragons and an army of the dead. The fantasy world includes medieval travel methods and times. The distance between Dragonstone and North of the wall is roughly the same distance as LA to NYC.
It would roughly take a week for a raven to fly (non-stop) to deliver the message.
If they had placed teleportation or supersonic dragon flight as part of the fantasy world, it would be fine. They did not, which makes it poorly constructed from a story standpoint.
I love GOT, but this episode was terribly done from both a technical standpoint and writing standpoint. The CGI was well done though.
The nitpicking is absurd.
You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water?
Get a grip.
For my money, one of the best episodes of the entire series so far. What I really loved about it was that it tied together so many disparate storylines. Suddenly we have Jon Snow talking to Jorah Mormont, the Hound and Tormund Giantsbane firing back and forth, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, and Gendry all back together at the same time. I loved how they finally wove those stories together and brought together these badasses from the furthest reaches of the storyline into the same place at the same time.
I liked the Arya/Sansa stuff as well. I like that Arya seems fully disconnected from the world. This discussion showed just how far removed she is from the little girl that went South in the first season. While Sansa has grown up, Arya has grown apart. Her time with the Faceless has made her something wholly different.
I also loved the battle and the felling of the dragon. I felt like it really made the Night King into a badass. In the past, he's just been this oppressive shadow that had his minions do all his work, now we see that he can fell a dragon with a single blow and now has a zombie dragon to ride himself. It also fixes that pesky Reddit debate of "who will ride the third dragon".
The nitpicking is absurd.
You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water?
Get a grip.
It's less about the chains and more that some braindead zombie army who only know how to overwhelm and kill while being lead by the Night King, are now executing complex engineering projects. It would be like a hoard of Zombies from the Walking Dead suddenly creating a pulley to lift and ferry large numbers of themselves over an obstruction.
It's less about the chains and more that some braindead zombie army who only know how to overwhelm and kill while being lead by the Night King, are now executing complex engineering projects. It would be like a hoard of Zombies from the Walking Dead suddenly creating a pulley to lift and ferry large numbers of themselves over an obstruction.
And of all my complaints, that's what you zero'd in on? My whole annoyance was that the storytelling and script got too neat, clean, and cute. That was just another example of it.
For my money, one of the best episodes of the entire series so far. What I really loved about it was that it tied together so many disparate storylines. Suddenly we have Jon Snow talking to Jorah Mormont, the Hound and Tormund Giantsbane firing back and forth, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, and Gendry all back together at the same time. I loved how they finally wove those stories together and brought together these badasses from the furthest reaches of the storyline into the same place at the same time.
I liked the Arya/Sansa stuff as well. I like that Arya seems fully disconnected from the world. This discussion showed just how far removed she is from the little girl that went South in the first season. While Sansa has grown up, Arya has grown apart. Her time with the Faceless has made her something wholly different.
I also loved the battle and the felling of the dragon. I felt like it really made the Night King into a badass. In the past, he's just been this oppressive shadow that had his minions do all his work, now we see that he can fell a dragon with a single blow and now has a zombie dragon to ride himself. It also fixes that pesky Reddit debate of "who will ride the third dragon".
I've complained about the timing before, but watching this, two thoughts. First, Pakuni's timeline seems perfectly plausible. Even if you stretch it out to 48 or 72 hours, that's a perfectly rational timeline. Also, I'm sure that once Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring come out (if they ever do) we'll get even better dialogue and a more fully realized plot mixture as all this comes together. No interpretation is perfect and it's even harder when the source material isn't fully available. But for entertainment value, this was about as good as it gets.
No, it wouldn't be like that at all.
The Walking Dead zombies have no intelligent creator or leader. They're entirely mindless beings who follow no purpose other than a basic desire to feed.
To the contrary, the GoT wights were created to serve the walkers, and have always been shown to follow the commands of the walkers. Think about the attack on Hardhome. The wights clearly attacked on the orders of the Night's King (such as when he ordered them over the cliff, or later when he commanded the newly created wights to rise).
Even last night, the first batch of zombies were clearly marching in sync with the White Walker.
There are some fair criticisms of last night's episode - namely that they writers often are tying things neatly in order to speed things through the final episodes - but some of these gripes are silly (and dareisay simplistic) nitpicking in the place of thoughtful criticism.
Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.
This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.
The nitpicking is absurd.
You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water?
Get a grip.
Nah, this just isn't a valid counterpoint. I get that there's a lot of GoT fans that don't consume a lot of sci-fi or fantasy. But internal consistency about where to suspend reality one hand, and where art is imitating life one the other, is the central tenet of the genre. Its not fair to say "Hey! This isn't a documentary, so you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling." I get that if you're deciding whether to watch GoT or Oz, the timelines, etc. may not be that important to you. But GoT is at its core, a tv adaptation of what is a pretty tightly woven anthology narrative. Its a perfectly fair criticism of the adaptation for not holding itself to the same standards of internal consistency of the source material. Given that consumers of all things GoT have spent 5 books and 7 seasons invested in this, and that this has just recently started to become a major problem as the series is hurriedly rushing to its conclusion, its perfectly understandable to feel let down.
Edit - sorry, I'm seeing that this is all getting distilled down now before i posted. I'm a dumb.
I don't think anyone has said 'you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling.' Rather, I'm saying it's nitpicking and inconsistent to eagerly accept some fantastical elements of a story while railing other minor details over their supposed lack of realism.
But setting aside the argument over what is and isn't acceptable suspension of disbelief in a fantasy story, some of the plot elements being called unrealistic/incredible simply are not.
As pointed out above, it's not unrealistic in the GoT universe to deploy ravens to get a message to Daenerys from beyond the wall within an acceptable 48-hour (roughly) time frame.
It's not unrealistic that the White Walkers would possess and be capable of using a magical spear that could take down a dragon. They're magical beings that have been around for 12,000 years and been plotting an attack for millennia. Certainly they're aware of dragons' place in the world and would have prepared for them.
It's entirely within the narrative that the wights follow the commands of the White Walkers, and that would include commands to drag a dragon out of a frozen lake with chains (though it is fair to question where the chains came from ... Hardhome, perhaps?).
so, even setting aside a debate over suspension of disbelief, some of the complaints when scrutinized just don't hold up.
Game of Thrones has also been a fantasy show, but not reallllly. It was more of a show about the complex web of politics and relationships within Westeros. Things like magic and the supernatural were occasionally sprinkled in to spice it up, but there were stretches, sometimes weeks long, where Game of Thrones could have just as easily been set in 1400’s Scotland as it could have been in Westeros if the names were less bizarre and people less attractive.
Now, Game of Thrones is a full-blown fantasy show. Dragons, White Walkers, Bran Stark, concepts like predestination, God, magic, they’re all going to not just be elements in the show. They’re going to be the driving force. The emphasis on the realism/fantasy blend has completely flipped. If you’re someone who grew up loving Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, The Eragon series or any other fantasy novel, this is all going to be very familiar and welcome to you. But for the people who have been justifying their Game of Thrones fandam with “Yeah it’s about ice zombies and dragons but NOT REALLY, it isn’t like all that other nerd crap” you might find yourself not liking the show as much. I don’t know how much of the Game of Thrones audience is going to lose a little bit of interest in the show now that’s fantasy instead of historical fiction about a world which doesn’t exist (there’s a subtle difference). Certainly not enough to make anyone stop watching, especially with only a season left. But the reaction of the American pop culture audience being forced to embrace nerd-wet-dream straight-cut unfiltered fantasy is going to be fascinating.
Here's a good reflection on my POV following the last episode:
http://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/game-of-thrones-episode-6-recap-daenerys-ex-machina
Thanks for sharing.
One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen raven?
Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.
This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.
Anyhow ... here's a solid argument for why it's all possible:
When the new episode drops tomorrow, I'm anticipating that there's gonna be a fair bit of bitching and moaning about how quickly Gendry relayed the Just Ice League's message to Dany. Like a lot of people in this sub, I think that too many showwatchers have a pretty fragile ability to suspend disbelief, but I thought I'd offer a semi-plausible rationalization anyway:
The whole concept of messenger ravens is fantastical. To my knowledge, the only widespread "avian messenger systems" used homing pigeons because of their unique ability to navigate with the Earth's magnetic field. Ravens are smart birds, but they're nonmigratory. The sheer size of the maesters' raven network is also preposterously large and complex for a medieval society. In other words, we're already far beyond the realm of realism before anything involving this specific message.
On this map it appears that the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone is 1800-2000 miles, about the same distance as Seattle to Chicago. From my 5 minutes of internet research, it seems like this scale is based entirely on a single description of the Wall as being 100 leagues long, and one statement from GRRM that 1 league = 3 miles. GRRM has mentioned that he regrets making the Wall so large, so I'm gonna call this an exaggeration and cut all the distances in half (also because my math doesn't work otherwise).
The Wikipedia article on homing pigeons claims that the top speed of a pigeon over short distances is 90 mph and 50 mph for moderate distances. 900-1000 miles is pushing the limits of how far pigeons can travel (certainly over one day) but idgaf because this world already has dragons and ice zombies, so we're gonna make this hypothetical messenger bird a super raven that can cruise at 90 mph forever.
I can't find the post, but yesterday someone noted that one of the first landscape shots in the episode is at the same location that Jon & Co. lay the ambush to capture a wight. It's obviously just a filming shortcut because HBO doesn't have infinite money to scout locations in the Icelandic wilderness (but some kneelers are probably calling it a unnatural carnal knowledge-up that breaks their immersion). For our purposes, it's very convenient to presume that they were walking in circles on the zombie hunt, and so we'll say that Gendry only had to run 26.2 miles back to the Wall. The fastest marathon time is about 2 hours, but we'll cut Gendry some slack since he was wearing some pretty bulky clothes and say it took him 3 hours.
What can we conclude from all this ironclad evidence?
Gendry's marathon: 3 hours
Super raven's 900-mile flight to Dragonstone: 10 hours
Dany getting her crap together/arguing with Tyrion: 1 hour
Dragon-flight back to zombie island: 10 hours
Therefore, if you squint your eyes (and remember that we're talking about a sword-and-sorcery TV show and not a Ken Burns documentary), the whole sequence took 24 hours. This comports with the Just Ice League's overnight standoff with the Army of the Dead.
Even if you take away some of this person's favorable assumptions, it can still realistically be accomplished in some 48 hours or so, which fits fine with the narrative (and nothing close to a full week).
And questioning the spear-throwing capabilities of a 12,000-year-old zombie king with magical powers.
Like, him being created by magical children wielding a magical dagger and then surviving many millennia in the wilderness while turning the dead into a zombie army is totally acceptable, but NO WAY could he be skilled at throwing a magical spear. That's just not credible.
I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand. First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can. Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds. Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field.
None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc. Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself). So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed.
Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing. According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down. That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina. It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created.
This episode was pure fan-service. Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy. Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world. And a gross overuse of deus ex machina.
From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool. From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen. They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.
A class of film students didn't care for it? Check and mate.
Also, I wholeheartedly disagree on the ravens. Frankly, there is nothing in GRRM cannon or real-life science/biology to suggest what occurred time wise in the last episode.
Regarding deus ex machina. The last episode was fraught with it: Dany magically showing up just in time, in unnatural time frames, at the exact right place (note, Gendry didn't know where they were and there was a massive snowstorm...Dany and the dragons have never been north). Benjen showing up at precisely the right time. Magic dragon killing spears. Massive chains that would take the army years to build, or even transport immediately available. Not to mention they would have to swim down to wrap the chains around the dragon, and it has been well documented in canon that the wights cannot swim...cannot survive entering water...and on and on.
Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!
Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!
One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.
I have contented myself with the belief that the standoff was a couple of days and this was actually a trap by the Night King to get himself a dragon. We already know he has some magical ability of foresight given his ability to "see" Bran when he is spying. So if he knew the dragons would come to rescue John it would make sense that he would wait them out.
I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand. First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can. Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds. Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field.+100
None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc. Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself). So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed.
Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing. According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down. That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina. It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created.
This episode was pure fan-service. Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy. Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world. And a gross overuse of deus ex machina.
From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool. From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen. They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.
The writing this season is sub par, and the entire story is rushed.
You don't have to like this season just because its GOT.
You could literally drive a mac truck through some of these plot holes.
The entire IDEA behind GRRM's series to subvert fantasy tropes, yet this entire season is wrought with them.
I think this article does a pretty good job summarizing the plot issues. Primarily, that the whole "catch an individual wight" is a ridiculously stupid hare-brained scheme with no logical reason to attempt or think will succeed for a myriad of reasons. (Wights tend to hang out in groups of thousands, Cersei already has her own giant zombie and is not interested at all in problems outside her own walls so why would she care if you brought her one. So besides the difficulty of the task, it is necessarily going to fail anyway and Tyrion, if he's 10% as smaert as he is supposed to be, would know that for sure)
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-eastwatch/#!
On one other note, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but I thought the Lannisters were planning to pay back the bank with the money taken from the Tyrells. I assumed the dragon destroyed the wagon with the gold when Dany attacked the returning army. Do they still have the money to pay back the bank?
Tarly told Jamie all the gold was safely behind the walls of King's Landing.Thanks, I obviously missed that.
Right, and that is really the problem.
Did Sansa forget who Littlefinger is and what he does ALL THE TIME?
Catch a wight is a stupid plot on its face. Why not just find a criminal and execute him... toss him in a cell and wait for him to turn? Why doesn't Drogon turn his head and nuke the Night's King with Dragonfire after he sees Viserion get hit... better yet, why do none of the dragons nuke the Night's King?
Littlefinger has been an advisor to Sansa. She does not see all of the devious stuff that we do while watching.
This isn't The Walking Dead - everyone who dies does not "turn".
I, too wondered why the dragons didn't nuke him.
No, Sansa has been showing LF that she is wise to the game. She has been trained for it every season, and for her to become so apparently stupid to his machinations this season is against her character development.
No, not everyone turns, but most people around the wall and North of it do turn. The wights that attack Jeor Mormont back in S1 turned while in Castle Black. It would follow logic that the army of the dead wants as many wights as possible.
The writing this season is sub par, and the entire story is rushed.
You don't have to like this season just because its GOT.
You could literally drive a mac truck through some of these plot holes.
The entire IDEA behind GRRM's series to subvert fantasy tropes, yet this entire season is wrought with them.
Right, and that is really the problem.
Did Sansa forget who Littlefinger is and what he does ALL THE TIME? Did Arya totally forget her past where she served Tywin Lannister wine as his cupbearer? How did Tyrion go from the smartest guy in the books to being wrong about pretty much everything? Catch a wight is a stupid plot on its face. Why not just find a criminal and execute him... toss him in a cell and wait for him to turn? Why doesn't Drogon turn his head and nuke the Night's King with Dragonfire after he sees Viserion get hit... better yet, why do none of the dragons nuke the Night's King? Why don't our heroes chop the ice around them to prevent the wights from just waiting for it to freeze? This was just off the top of my head this morning.
I can totally forgive the time travelling since its a TV show and the story must move forward, but there are just so many logical inconsistencies that are very off putting.
And the gold had already arrived in King's Landing. I think either Jamie or Randyll Tarly mentions it in the episode that the battle took place.
I like this season because it has been awesome.
Why don't our heroes chop the ice around them to prevent the wights from just waiting for it to freeze? Fair point. I'd have to watch again to see if I was missing something. As has been pointed out, the Night King could likely have just froze it again but may have been waiting for the dragons to arrive.
I think it's very likely that it was a trap to capture a dragon.
Check out this screenshot of the Walkers waiting for the lake to freeze (i.e. the dragons to show up). Is it coincidence that they brought three large spears with them?
(https://i.redditmedia.com/jYdpFxAcbsytxHLqCFz8C15S_Z6G2bx-6vFQe_o51DQ.png?w=812&s=ac168abc548462a73b92e79899e80917)
I think it's very likely that it was a trap to capture a dragon.
Check out this screenshot of the Walkers waiting for the lake to freeze (i.e. the dragons to show up). Is it coincidence that they brought three large spears with them?
(https://i.redditmedia.com/jYdpFxAcbsytxHLqCFz8C15S_Z6G2bx-6vFQe_o51DQ.png?w=812&s=ac168abc548462a73b92e79899e80917)
It's pretty obvious that Arya, quite likely with Sansa, is setting up Littlefinger.
The wights that attacked Jeor Mormont were members of the Nght's Watch killed beyond the wall and then returned to Castle Black. So, becoming a wight seems to at the very least require being killed beyond the wall, and almost certainly by another wight or a walker. I don't recall any of the people killed at Craster's Keep or Battle of Castle Black turning into wights. That being the case, executing a prisoner and waiting for him to turn into a wight seems an impossibility.
(p.s. Going to capture a wight was a terrible idea ... but GoT is full of people acting on terrible ideas. Sort of a central theme of the stories, no?)
Very nice catch. Of course, I can't say I recall if it is different than normal but it seems to be unlikely to be coincidence.
In the books the dudes turn while in the black cells at castle black. The story line doesn't fit within the narrative and it's sloppy hero trope quest BS. And that no one important dies on the lake is even more absurd.
If/when Martin finishes the books, I firmly believe the story won't be close to this bungled mess.
In the books the dudes turn while in the black cells at castle black.
Why do you watch a show that you think is so bad?
Except the first time we see the army of the dead headed south (seasons ago) the only white walker we see has an ice lance/spear.
Oh horsecrap. If you don't think this season has strayed from the core of the series you are either not paying attention, don't know good writing, or are easily tricked by stupid fan service dialogue and flashy battle scenes.
I'm enjoying it for what it is, but the quality drop off is enormous.
Why do you watch a show that you think is so bad?
I'm asking seriously - not just to be snarky. It is fantasy and there is no way the show could encompass the detail of many thousands of pages. Shortcuts are necessary and storylines need to be completed in a timely manner.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
I loved the first season of True Detective. When I got 2 episodes into the second season and didn't like it, I stopped watching it. It was easy. When NYPD Blue got stupid, I stopped watching it. When MASH got awful, I stopped watching it. ER. That stupid effen Seattle medical show. Etc, etc, etc.
I confess that I did watch the entire season of John From Cincinnati. I was a glutton for punishment!
Your examples aren't exactly apples to apples. True Detective had a compeltely different cast and storyline. And network TV dramas have 20+ episode seasons and meandering plots.
There are ebbs and flows to series. Some people hated certain seasons of the Wire. There was a season of Friday Night Lights that was absolutely laughable. But they are still great shows with great characters that keep you coming back. GoT is no exception. Its not infallible, especially when you have a very defined point of comparison in writing.
Complaining about certain episodes or writing themes doesn't make it a bad show all of a sudden or one that has no interest in watching.
It's not a bad show, it's just a poorly done season.
I love the show, I just don't want to see it end on a sour note. Especially, for how good it has been in seasons past. I'm an enormous fan of the show and books. I just think that they deserve the criticism that they're getting.
Im over here asking why the army of dead dont have arrows.
In the books the dudes turn while in the black cells at castle black.
And that no one important dies on the lake is even more absurd.
And that no one important dies on the lake is even more absurd.
I suppose my issue with some of the criticism is that I get the impression (and I could be wrong) that some people go into watching an episode actually looking for things to nitpick, ridicule, or complain about.
The White Walkers having chains to pull out the dragon is one example, which can be explained very easily.
It's fine if some don't think the writing is as good or don't like the pacing - that's subjective. But saying if someone disagrees then they don't know good writing is ridiculous.
I think this is the bigger point that justifies the criticism and its not even HBO's fault necessarily. The show was nearly unassailable in its quality on all fronts for three or so seasons. Then, IMO, it seemed to start spinning it's wheels a bit as it kept introducing new story threads from the books that don't actually move the overarching story forward. That also seemed to be a direct result of waiting on Martin to write more, which hasn't happened, and I think ultimately led to a pivot from the showrunners and the rushed pacing we see now as HBO trues to close out the series before it fades to obscurity waiting on the books to finish.
Once all is said and done, I'd be curious to see someone's reaction to binging the entire series. I think that's type of viewing would show the issues being poin ted out more glaringly - similar to rewatching The Wire now and realizing that Season 5 really failed to pales in comparison to earlier seasons.
It's still one of the best shows on TV. It has just gotten formulaic in a way that I've gotten spoiled in the golden age of television not to expect from prestogie drama. I wish there was more time to let these major events breathe and develop this season as I think that would have helped with the suspension of disbelief issues people - including myself - are having. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing the series resolve though.
Edit: Haha. I guess The Wire was a pretty good example since two other people brought it up while I typed. Also, even though I feel that way about The Wire, I still think it is one of the greatest TV shows ever. I would guess most critics in this thread feel the same way about GoT.
Yes, exactly this.
The chains could have been, like many things on this show in the past, been quietly alluded to. Chains in the distance with wights carrying them, for instance, in a wide shot. I'm not saying we need Chekov's gun situations every time, but the implication that the ambush was planned ahead of time would have been better... rather than being happenstance. Its all just a little less clever and more ham fisted than we should expect from this show.
For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.
Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?
Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.
I think its more when you overall don't enjoy the episode, you start thinking of things about it. This is the first episode in awhile where I was like "for F*** sake". And yes, I was one of those who complained about the chains, not in a nitpicky sense, but because it all seemed so easy and convenient.
And I totally get your point about complaining about someone not knowing good writing, but the flip side are those who act like anyone who doesn't gleefully lap up everything GoT throws out, then they are some TV snob who is never happy.
And for the record, for all of my "negativity" in this thread, I'm still very much looking forward to Sunday.
For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.
Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?
Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.
For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.
Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?
Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.
There is a theory going around that Jon will become the Night King in order to lead the wights etc. back beyond the wall. It goes further to speculate that the Night King used to be Azor Ahai. It claims that Azor is the original Night King, took up the job in a moment of sacrifice (like Jon Snow will), and even helped build the wall:
"Someone has to 'pull out' the dragonglass in his chest which was used to create him in the first place. By doing this the Night King would 'die,' but unlike what happens when someone kills a 'normal' white walker, none of the creatures the Night king 'created' or turned would die. Instead they would lose the mind controlling effect the Night King has on them, and they would start doing whatever the f*ck they want, i.e. rampaging around the country. To prevent this scenario from happening someone has to take the place of the Night King by stabbing himself with the previously extracted dragonglass-dagger. By doing this the person (in our mind Jon Snow) would sacrifice himself for the greater good, gaining control over all of the wights and walkers. He then would lead them back over the wall back into the north where they would stay like it has been before since the last long night (like a beast in a cage)."
"After that the Night King secluded himself far in the North where no one else could survive. Now over time (in the many years since the Long Night) the personality of the former Azor Ahai slowly began to decay and he finally turned into what we see now in the series as the Night King. At some point the vanishing personality of Azor Ahai could no longer hold in check the 'evil' that was lingering inside him. At that point the Night King started moving again, returning from the far North and slowly started creating new white walkers / wights as he had before.
I'm still loving the show, but I really wish they hadn't got ahead of the books. When they started to diverge from the book storyline in Season 2, most notably with the House of the Undying storyline, it was a disappointment. Now it's quite a ways from the beaten track. Stannis, Barristan Selmy, and so many others will still be alive whenever Martin gets back to writing. The Battle of the Bastards hasn't happened, Cersei's bombing of the Great Sept of Baelor, having watched the episodes without any books in 6 years will likely have me completely confused by the time TWOW finally comes out.
Curious, as I've never watched the show nor read the books (I'm weird because I consume space based sci-fi by IV but HATE fantasy sci-fi), but what percentage of show watchers are actually book readers? I get the impression that the majority of watchers have at best a passing awareness of the books. How much concern did HBO have with staying with the book if the audience wasn't majority into the books.
Plus, didn't this show start like 8 years ago and there hasn't been a new book in that whole time? Seems pretty reasonable for HBO to think they would have had new source material to work off of by now and so has now had to audible.
Show started in April 2011, the fifth book came out later that same year. Book 6 was originally slated for 2015, but has been repeatedly pushed back. I think we'll see it next year, but who knows when the seventh (and final) book will be released. I honestly think 2024-2028 is a reasonable window.
Show started in April 2011, the fifth book came out later that same year. Book 6 was originally slated for 2015, but has been repeatedly pushed back. I think we'll see it next year, but who knows when the seventh (and final) book will be released. I honestly think 2024-2028 is a reasonable window.
Curious, as I've never watched the show nor read the books (I'm weird because I consume space based sci-fi by IV but HATE fantasy sci-fi), but what percentage of show watchers are actually book readers? I get the impression that the majority of watchers have at best a passing awareness of the books. How much concern did HBO have with staying with the book if the audience wasn't majority into the books.
And the Walls,
Come tumbling down
Mellencamp.
See you in a couple of years.
Ayria still has The Hound and Cersai on her list. Should be interesting if she actually makes it.
Yeah, that was Eastwatch, next stop the big wall.
Was that fire or ice coming from its mouth?
Is Jaime enroute to Winterfell by himself to alert them Cersai has gone back on word?
Ayria still has The Hound and Cersai on her list. Should be interesting if she actually makes it.
One year to go, filming starts in October for last season with a September/October finale start date. Read that today.
One year to go, filming starts in October for last season with a September/October finale start date. Read that today.
Source?
I think the last two sequences lends a lot of credence to the notion that Brann is at minimum connected to a white walker and probably the king.
You can't call it a trap or a plan for the NK to get a dragon because he has no known knowledge of dragons even existing anymore!http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Comet (http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Comet)
Overall, this was a much better episode than last week's. The main problem that I had was: What was the Night King's plan to get past the wall if the Band of Bros didn't go North to capture a wight, and then somehow they got word to get Dany to come with her dragons. WHAT WAS THE PLAN THEN? Just chill at the wall? Climb it like the wildlings did?I'm not sure I understand your argument here.
You can't call it a trap or a plan for the NK to get a dragon because he has no known knowledge of dragons even existing anymore!
I think the last two sequences lends a lot of credence to the notion that Brann is at minimum connected to a white walker and probably the king.
Overall, this was a much better episode than last week's. The main problem that I had was: What was the Night King's plan to get past the wall if the Band of Bros didn't go North to capture a wight, and then somehow they got word to get Dany to come with her dragons. WHAT WAS THE PLAN THEN? Just chill at the wall? Climb it like the wildlings did?
You can't call it a trap or a plan for the NK to get a dragon because he has no known knowledge of dragons even existing anymore!
Now that I've got that out of my system, this season at Winterfell was a mess, but it ended well. The scenes with Sansa and Arya earlier this year could have gone differently and I know they were just trying to build suspense... but it was sloppy.
I thought the scene at the Dragon Pit and everything surrounding Jamie and Cersei was great. Well written, well acted, and individual character reactions and explanations all made sense... That said, I didn't love the fan service for CLEGANEBOWL.
Jon and Dany scenes were well done as well. Really good episode 8/10
. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .
My only disappointment was thinking of Ned and how the person that passes the sentence should swing the blade.
.
As far as the Cersei/Euron plot, I think maybe Cersei DID know what was in the box. I think Tyrion may have fed her information and already betrayed Dany to his family before they even arrived at the Dragon Pit. It would allow Cersei and Euron time to hatch a reason for him to bail immediately to acquire the Golden Company. If Tyrion is the traitor, it explains a lot as far as how Cersei and Euron would be able to run roughshod over Dany's army and navy as they arrived, how they had the knowledge they did, and how they could plan contingencies for the impending Great War.
You can't call it a trap or a plan for the NK to get a dragon because he has no known knowledge of dragons even existing anymore!
Agree with all of this.
As for the plan if they didn't get a dragon. The intro to the show has clearly indicated that the ocean next to East Watch has completely frozen over so there is a land bridge around the wall. The other is the narrative regarding Cersei/Euron. There was no way for them to predict them bringing a wight that would scare Euron into leaving, and no discussion between the two before he asks if they can swim and he runs. So they couldn't have planned him sneaking off. Again a minor detail that doesn't affect anything.
So if Sansa and Arya had hatched this plan and were playing and setting up Littlefinger, why were they so antagonistic in their scenes together that only the audience could see?
Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.
As far as the Cersei/Euron plot, I think maybe Cersei DID know what was in the box. I think Tyrion may have fed her information and already betrayed Dany to his family before they even arrived at the Dragon Pit. It would allow Cersei and Euron time to hatch a reason for him to bail immediately to acquire the Golden Company. If Tyrion is the traitor, it explains a lot as far as how Cersei and Euron would be able to run roughshod over Dany's army and navy as they arrived, how they had the knowledge they did, and how they could plan contingencies for the impending Great War.
Also, the only time Dany has really been able to successfully combat Cersei's armies were when she went against Tyrion's advice and took Drogon to destroy Jamie's armies on the Rose Road. Tyrion's advice for Dany has worked out in spectacularly disastrous fashion since their return to Westeros.
So just to get the lineage right ...
Dany is Jon's aunt?
I agree with others that it wasn't the "Stark way" when Sansa handed down the sentence and Arya swung the sword. But I think the scene was supposed to emphasize that both characters had reached the pinnacle of their roles. Sansa as the lady and Arya as the warrior.
This is a repost from Reddit, but it is exactly how I feel about the entire Winterfell subplot.
"Ok, so I guess the Stark girls were just acting like they had turned against one another in order to fool Littlefinger. What I don't understand is why. Why did they have to fool Littlefinger in the first place? What purpose did that serve? They had Bran and, presumably, all the evidence they needed against Littlefinger already, so why not just drag him out, expose his crimes, and execute him? Why did they have to do all that acting in front of him? In the end, all they did was accuse him of a bunch of stuff, which he simply denies. Then they just killed him anyway without actually producing any evidence to prove him wrong. I don't get the point of any of this. Someone please explain."
I would imagine you don't want to give someone that devious any kind of inkling of what may be coming. And I imagine the appearance of how it went down matters in terms of the Lords of the Vale.
This is a repost from Reddit, but it is exactly how I feel about the entire Winterfell subplot.
"Ok, so I guess the Stark girls were just acting like they had turned against one another in order to fool Littlefinger. What I don't understand is why. Why did they have to fool Littlefinger in the first place? What purpose did that serve? They had Bran and, presumably, all the evidence they needed against Littlefinger already, so why not just drag him out, expose his crimes, and execute him? Why did they have to do all that acting in front of him? In the end, all they did was accuse him of a bunch of stuff, which he simply denies. Then they just killed him anyway without actually producing any evidence to prove him wrong. I don't get the point of any of this. Someone please explain."
I think this is overthinking it. I think the scene involving Arya/Sansa was just incredibly poorly scripted. I think that is how it was supposed to be viewed, them turning on each other, because they were turning on each other (even though it isn't very logical).
I think the big turning point in the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger battle royale came this episode when Littlefinger was playing his game. In the middle of it Littlefinger asks the question of "Why she would have the letter". At that point, the only ones who knew of the letter emerging were Sansa and Arya. By asking that question he kind of tips her off that he was behind all of it, as the only way he could know of the letter is if he unearthed it.
Also, by posing the answer that Arya wants to kill her to become her, he actually defeats his own story. If Arya wanted to kill Sansa to become her, she had her opportunity when they were in the room together. She could have killed Sansa there, took her face and ruled as Sansa. She didn't, she actually handed the dagger to Sansa, which meant that wasn't her purpose. Arya didn't want to kill her.
I think this is overthinking it. I think the scene involving Arya/Sansa was just incredibly poorly scripted. I think that is how it was supposed to be viewed, them turning on each other, because they were turning on each other (even though it isn't very logical).
I think this is overthinking it. I think the scene involving Arya/Sansa was just incredibly poorly scripted. I think that is how it was supposed to be viewed, them turning on each other, because they were turning on each other (even though it isn't very logical).
I think the big turning point in the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger battle royale came this episode when Littlefinger was playing his game. In the middle of it Littlefinger asks the question of "Why she would have the letter". At that point, the only ones who knew of the letter emerging were Sansa and Arya. By asking that question he kind of tips her off that he was behind all of it, as the only way he could know of the letter is if he unearthed it.
Also, by posing the answer that Arya wants to kill her to become her, he actually defeats his own story. If Arya wanted to kill Sansa to become her, she had her opportunity when they were in the room together. She could have killed Sansa there, took her face and ruled as Sansa. She didn't, she actually handed the dagger to Sansa, which meant that wasn't her purpose. Arya didn't want to kill her.
Very good point
I think this is overthinking it. I think the scene involving Arya/Sansa was just incredibly poorly scripted. I think that is how it was supposed to be viewed, them turning on each other, because they were turning on each other (even though it isn't very logical).
I think the big turning point in the Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger battle royale came this episode when Littlefinger was playing his game. In the middle of it Littlefinger asks the question of "Why she would have the letter". At that point, the only ones who knew of the letter emerging were Sansa and Arya. By asking that question he kind of tips her off that he was behind all of it, as the only way he could know of the letter is if he unearthed it.
Also, by posing the answer that Arya wants to kill her to become her, he actually defeats his own story. If Arya wanted to kill Sansa to become her, she had her opportunity when they were in the room together. She could have killed Sansa there, took her face and ruled as Sansa. She didn't, she actually handed the dagger to Sansa, which meant that wasn't her purpose. Arya didn't want to kill her.
I very much agree with this take:
This season of Game Of Thrones was illogical, dumb, and fun as hell
This season of Game Of Thrones was a fast-paced, wildly fun ride filled with huge battle sequences, long-awaited reunions, thrilling team-ups, and some of the most memorable deaths in the series’ history.
This season of Game Of Thrones was a knowingly rushed, ludicrously implausible bit of fan service, filled with improbable character alliances that seemed like they were lifted from some multiplayer video game, romances that felt like direct pandering to “shippers,” and some of the least surprising ends for the most relatively disposable characters left in a show that’s rapidly running out of major players to kill.
These statements sum up the general sentiments on either side of the drama’s polarizing seventh season—and I agree with both of them. This season was breakneck, sloppy, and occasionally downright stupid. It was also a lot of fun.
http://www.avclub.com/this-season-of-game-of-thrones-was-illogical-dumb-and-1798505721?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=tuesdayAM
For the book folks, what is your honest gut thinking Martin will do to wrap this thing up?
I very much agree with this take:
This season of Game Of Thrones was illogical, dumb, and fun as hell
This season of Game Of Thrones was a fast-paced, wildly fun ride filled with huge battle sequences, long-awaited reunions, thrilling team-ups, and some of the most memorable deaths in the series’ history.
This season of Game Of Thrones was a knowingly rushed, ludicrously implausible bit of fan service, filled with improbable character alliances that seemed like they were lifted from some multiplayer video game, romances that felt like direct pandering to “shippers,” and some of the least surprising ends for the most relatively disposable characters left in a show that’s rapidly running out of major players to kill.
These statements sum up the general sentiments on either side of the drama’s polarizing seventh season—and I agree with both of them. This season was breakneck, sloppy, and occasionally downright stupid. It was also a lot of fun.
http://www.avclub.com/this-season-of-game-of-thrones-was-illogical-dumb-and-1798505721?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=tuesdayAM
So just to get the lineage right ...
Dany is Jon's aunt?
I just started AGOT again this morning and plan to read all five again. Hopefully when I'm wrapping up, we get The Winds of Winter so I can just keep going. As far as expectations...
1) Valonqar Prophecy comes true: Cersei will die before her child is born. The Prophecy said her husband would have 16 children and she would have 3. She already had Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, so #4 never gets born. It will either be the guise of Tyrion or Jamie that kills her. I strongly suspect it will be Arya using Jamie's face. I think Tyrion is too obvious from the start and Jamie is the one she would allow to get close enough to her to kill her. That will leave the Iron Throne vacant for...
2) Tyrion turns traitor: I believe Tyrion is Daenaerys' third treason. I think he is setting Dany and Jon up, and secretly loves Dany and feels jealousy now that Jon is in the picture. I think he betrays them, but before he can deliver them to Cersei, she dies, which opens up the Iron Throne for the next Lannister in line, which just happens to be Tyrion.
3) King Tyrion Targaryean: Tyrion turns out to be the bastard of King Aerys II Targaryean. This not only allows him to claim the Iron Throne as the next Lannister, but solidify his claim by stating he is the eldest surviving Targaryean. I do think he will initially help in the Great War against the Night King, but will oppose Jon and Dany after the Night King is defeated.
4) Bran is the Night King: The penultimate battle will be the Great War with Jon riding Rhaegal and Dany astride Drogon. At some point, it will be revealed that Bran's consciousness has been in the Night King all along. Just too much evidence, and the show has certainly pointed to it. Jon will learn this before his final battle with the Night King. I do think Lady Stoneheart and Gregor Clegane will both have major parts to play in the Great War.
5) Someone will replace the Night King: I don't think it will be Jon or Dany, but I do think the Army of the Dead will march back North to rest for 8,000 more years. Maybe one of the already undead, like Stoneheart or the Mountain, maybe the current body of young Bran Stark, maybe Arya, I'm not sure. The Jon theory makes the most sense, but I think he ends up in King's Landing.
6) The last "Big Bad" will be King Tyrion: After the Great War, I think Jon and Dany (married by then) will go to war with King Tyrion for the Iron Throne. Ultimately, I do think Jon sits on the Iron Throne, fulfilling Dany's vision from the House of the Undying.
So you plan to finish your reread of A Dance With Dragons somewhere in 2025?
I think we'll see ADWD by next year at the latest. But I think 2025 is about right for A Dream of Spring. And I'll probably re-read it all again before that one comes out.
They gonna invent a cure for heart disease by 2025, Martin ain't looking too good these days.
As for the books/show... I'm curious, if or how these last two seasons of the show will impact Martin and his writing. I'm not all that familiar with the writing side of things, but has Martin stated he has a framework or outline of how the story ends, or more open ended based on where his brain takes him?
On the Ringer podcast, they had stated and I found interesting that when started GoT, he was partly motivated by making sooooo in depth that it could not get adapted for the screen.
Has he been generally supportive of Benioff and Weiss?
I just started AGOT again this morning and plan to read all five again. Hopefully when I'm wrapping up, we get The Winds of Winter so I can just keep going. As far as expectations...
1) Valonqar Prophecy comes true: Cersei will die before her child is born. The Prophecy said her husband would have 16 children and she would have 3. She already had Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, so #4 never gets born. It will either be the guise of Tyrion or Jamie that kills her. I strongly suspect it will be Arya using Jamie's face. I think Tyrion is too obvious from the start and Jamie is the one she would allow to get close enough to her to kill her. That will leave the Iron Throne vacant for...
2) Tyrion turns traitor: I believe Tyrion is Daenaerys' third treason. I think he is setting Dany and Jon up, and secretly loves Dany and feels jealousy now that Jon is in the picture. I think he betrays them, but before he can deliver them to Cersei, she dies, which opens up the Iron Throne for the next Lannister in line, which just happens to be Tyrion.
3) King Tyrion Targaryean: Tyrion turns out to be the bastard of King Aerys II Targaryean. This not only allows him to claim the Iron Throne as the next Lannister, but solidify his claim by stating he is the eldest surviving Targaryean. I do think he will initially help in the Great War against the Night King, but will oppose Jon and Dany after the Night King is defeated.
4) Bran is the Night King: The penultimate battle will be the Great War with Jon riding Rhaegal and Dany astride Drogon. At some point, it will be revealed that Bran's consciousness has been in the Night King all along. Just too much evidence, and the show has certainly pointed to it. Jon will learn this before his final battle with the Night King. I do think Lady Stoneheart and Gregor Clegane will both have major parts to play in the Great War.
5) Someone will replace the Night King: I don't think it will be Jon or Dany, but I do think the Army of the Dead will march back North to rest for 8,000 more years. Maybe one of the already undead, like Stoneheart or the Mountain, maybe the current body of young Bran Stark, maybe Arya, I'm not sure. The Jon theory makes the most sense, but I think he ends up in King's Landing.
6) The last "Big Bad" will be King Tyrion: After the Great War, I think Jon and Dany (married by then) will go to war with King Tyrion for the Iron Throne. Ultimately, I do think Jon sits on the Iron Throne, fulfilling Dany's vision from the House of the Undying.
To tie it all together:
Daenerys older brother was Rhaegar, Jon's father. Rhaegar had already been killed by Robert Baratheon when Jon was born in Dorne.
After Rhaegar was killed, Mad King Aerys' pregnant wife (Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenery's mother) was evacuated to Dragonstone with Viserys. After Robert took the Iron Throne, he sent Stannis to take Dragonstone. Shortly before this, the queen had died giving birth to Daenerys. A Targaryen loyalist had gotten Viserys and Daenerys across the Narrow Sea by the time Stannis got to Dragonstone.
So Jon - born in Dorne to Rhaegar (already dead) and Lyanna (died in childbirth), Daenerys born on Dragonstone to Aerys (already dead) and Queen Rhaella (died in childbirth). Making Daenerys aunt, Jon nephew, though unlike most nephews, Jon is a few months older.
4) Bran is the Night King: The penultimate battle will be the Great War with Jon riding Rhaegal and Dany astride Drogon. At some point, it will be revealed that Bran's consciousness has been in the Night King all along. Just too much evidence, and the show has certainly pointed to it. Jon will learn this before his final battle with the Night King. I do think Lady Stoneheart and Gregor Clegane will both have major parts to play in the Great War.
I'm not a book reader, can you elaborate on Lady Stoneheart? From Google it appears she is the reincarnated Catelyn Stark? From what I remember this isn't in the shows at all. And also do you think these characters will have major roles because they are possibly already "undead" themselves? I sure hope Gregor Clegane has some big role because I've been waiting for him to be unleashed ever since he was turned by Qyburn. Every time I think he is going to lay waste to a few people, he gets pulled back. One of these times he has to actually pull his sword instead of just stepping in front of people.
2) Tyrion turns traitor: I believe Tyrion is Daenaerys' third treason. I think he is setting Dany and Jon up, and secretly loves Dany and feels jealousy now that Jon is in the picture. I think he betrays them, but before he can deliver them to Cersei, she dies, which opens up the Iron Throne for the next Lannister in line, which just happens to be Tyrion.
If Bran is the Night King:
So whose consciousness was in the Night King before Bran became the 3-eyed raven?
Was not Bran after becoming the 3-eyed raven pursued by the army of the dead only to be saved by Hodor holding the door?
What motivation does Bran have to allow the army of the dead to kill off all the living including his siblings.
Is it Bran or the 3-eyed-raven who is the Night King?
Just trying to make sense of all this.
If Bran is the Night King:
So whose consciousness was in the Night King before Bran became the 3-eyed raven?
Was not Bran after becoming the 3-eyed raven pursued by the army of the dead only to be saved by Hodor holding the door?
What motivation does Bran have to allow the army of the dead to kill off all the living including his siblings.
Is it Bran or the 3-eyed-raven who is the Night King?
Just trying to make sense of all this.
If Bran is the Night King:
So whose consciousness was in the Night King before Bran became the 3-eyed raven?
Was not Bran after becoming the 3-eyed raven pursued by the army of the dead only to be saved by Hodor holding the door?
What motivation does Bran have to allow the army of the dead to kill off all the living including his siblings.
Is it Bran or the 3-eyed-raven who is the Night King?
Just trying to make sense of all this.
I'm certainly not smart enough to track all the ins and outs, but Bran's ability to go back in time and interact (yelling to Ned during the first Lyanna flashback) could explain a lot here. I do think that there's a disconnect between the Night King's origin story in the books vs the show.
In the show, the Children create the first Walker (who is also the Night King?) with magic and dragonglass to defend them against the First Men. That first Walker could have some connection to a time-traveling Bran, or at least the Stark family (maybe a Stark ancestor that had similar powers to Bran's, which enables them to interact?).
In the books, as I understand it, the Night King is a fallen Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with a White Walker woman. So presumably in the book canon, the Night King and the first Walker are two different individuals? I do think there's a connection between Bran and the Night King, but I think its born out of a connection between the origin relationship between the White Walkers (and specifically the Night King) and the humans, and the show just hasn't given us enough info on that yet. That's why I hope the last season slows down a bit now that all that pesky plot is behind us, and focuses on the Walkers as another faction in the GoT universe, with their own rational goals and intentionality. Not only would it clear up what is a really interesting plotline, but it makes them a lot more interesting than if they're just a bloodthirsty zombie horde - e.g., what does the Night King actually want?
I mean, who knows, but the director of the season finale seems to think that's unlikely. Also, wouldn't Jamie be next in the Lannister line?
Not if Arya killed him and took his face. I'm thinking that's how the Valonqar prophecy is fulfilled, Cersei murdered by younger brother Jamie, except it's actually Arya wearing dead Jamie's face.
But if's it's Arya in disguise, then it's not really Jamie .... and thus doesn't fulfill the prophecy that Cerseii would be killed by a younger brother.
Also, doesn't the prophecy say Cersei would be strangled to death? Arya doesn't seem the strangling type, and strangling is a passionate, inmate act not in character with her distant, calm assassin demeanor.
Re-reading the first book...man there are some moments that really are just making me chuckle. Watching how Littlefinger essentially started the entire War of the Five Kings by blaming Tyrion for owning the dagger used in the assassination attempt on Bran, followed by the moment Cat stands up and calls to all her bannermen in the inn before Tyrion's arrest. Or Jamie throwing Bran out the window. Listening to whiny Viserys as he goes on and on about how Khal Drogo owes him an army.
GRRM is really a great writer. Fascinating stuff to re-read, and so well planned out.
Avid show watcher and fantasy fan in general. Should I read the books even though the show is this far along?
Avid show watcher and fantasy fan in general. Should I read the books even though the show is this far along?absolutely
November 2018. Season 8 will be here.
November 2018. Season 8 will be here.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/2-major-laws-fiction-that-are-screwing-game-thrones/
I think I agree with this
I am predicting that one of the Bran reveals next year is that he was in King Aerys II's head and was the reason he went mad.
Heard that theory quite a few times, but there's two holes I see. First, the White Walkers weren't there during Robert's Rebellion, so who is Bran telling him to burn. Second, Aerys II Targaryean had no dragons, so what would he be expected to burn them with?
Wildfire
There were white walkers in the north, just far fewer at that time
Wildfire
Bump.
I FINALLY convinced my wife to watch Game of Thrones from the beginning, and we are 7 episodes into Season 1 -- we watched 6 over the weekend as the rain fell on Charlotte.
She is really enjoying it, despite having to wince a few times because of all the gore. She has a pretty high threshold for TV violence -- actually liked Sons of Anarchy, The Shield, Walking Dead, Sopranos, etc -- but the graphic depiction of blood everywhere on GoT even has made her say, "Ewww!"a few times. Beyond that, though, she has liked the story and the character development so far.
The bonus for me is that I get to watch it again. I had only seen it once through, and now watching it again with the perspective of knowing what the story arc here is quite eye-opening. Characters I hadn't recalled seeing way back in the first few episodes (Theon, Bronn, Lorus) are there, and I'm going, "Oh yeah ... that's where he started ... " I've also noticed many subtleties I missed the first time, when I was just trying to follow the story.
I was pleased to see that GoT won the Emmy last night. Truly deserving, as Season 7 was amazing. Same for Peter Dinklage. Lena Headley no doubt was a strong contender, too. I LOVE hating Cersei, and watching the series again from the start has reinforced that. What a conniving beyotch!!!
HBO confirmed that Season 8 won't air until 2019, and the latest speculative reports I've seen say April. The good news is that gives us plenty of time to watch the first seven seasons!
I just want GRRM to stop f*cking around with every project under the sun and finish the damn books.
The spinoffs that HBO are working on will be awesome too, can't wait for those.
Plenty of time. A healthy guy like him could live forever.
(http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/117/photos/662000/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-516662.jpg)
Someone get that man's zipper a raise it's working harder than GRRM is working on The Winds of Winter.
Trailer dropped a couple hours ago
What are the odds on the Night King?
What are the odds on the Night King?
Bovada currently has the Night King's money line at +1000.
Other notables:
Bran Stark: -150
Jon Snow: +600
Sansa Stark: +800
Jon and Daenerys’ Child: +1000
Tyrion Lannister: +1000
Daenerys: +1200
Gendry: +1500
Arya Stark: +1800
Cersei Lannister: +2500
Samwell Tarly: +3300
Jaime Lannister: +4000
Davos: +8000
Euron Greyjoy: +10000
Varys: +10000
Beric Dondarrion: +10000
Brienne of Tarth: +10000
Bronn: +10000
Daario Naharis: +10000
Jaqun H’ghar: +10000
Jorah Mormont: +10000
Melisandre: +10000
Petyr Baelish: +10000
The Hound: +10000
Theon Greyjoy: +10000
Yara Greyjoy +10000
Tormund Giantsbane: +12500
Gilly: +15000
The Mountain: +15000
Bovada currently has the Night King's money line at +1000.I see Bovada doesn't subscribe to the Dog Army theory.
Other notables:
Bran Stark: -150
Jon Snow: +600
Sansa Stark: +800
Jon and Daenerys’ Child: +1000
Tyrion Lannister: +1000
Daenerys: +1200
Gendry: +1500
Arya Stark: +1800
Cersei Lannister: +2500
Samwell Tarly: +3300
Jaime Lannister: +4000
Davos: +8000
Euron Greyjoy: +10000
Varys: +10000
Beric Dondarrion: +10000
Brienne of Tarth: +10000
Bronn: +10000
Daario Naharis: +10000
Jaqun H’ghar: +10000
Jorah Mormont: +10000
Melisandre: +10000
Petyr Baelish: +10000
The Hound: +10000
Theon Greyjoy: +10000
Yara Greyjoy +10000
Tormund Giantsbane: +12500
Gilly: +15000
The Mountain: +15000
I see Bovada doesn't subscribe to the Dog Army theory.
Currently in S6 of my rewatch. So many instances of foreshadowing and hindsight is fun. Forgot about some pretty epic moments.
Personally, my vote is for anyone BUT Shae.
Bovada currently has the Night King's money line at +1000.
Other notables:
Bran Stark: -150
Jon Snow: +600
Sansa Stark: +800
Jon and Daenerys’ Child: +1000
Tyrion Lannister: +1000
Daenerys: +1200
Gendry: +1500
Arya Stark: +1800
Cersei Lannister: +2500
Samwell Tarly: +3300
Jaime Lannister: +4000
Davos: +8000
Euron Greyjoy: +10000
Varys: +10000
Beric Dondarrion: +10000
Brienne of Tarth: +10000
Bronn: +10000
Daario Naharis: +10000
Jaqun H’ghar: +10000
Jorah Mormont: +10000
Melisandre: +10000
Petyr Baelish: +10000
The Hound: +10000
Theon Greyjoy: +10000
Yara Greyjoy +10000
Tormund Giantsbane: +12500
Gilly: +15000
The Mountain: +15000
What happens if Sansa and Tyrion rule as Wife and Husband? Do people betting on either win?
My current bet is for Sansa and Tyrion sharing the throne. Unifies the two competing lineages. Not to different from the War of the Roses which inspired GRRM.
You believe there's only TWO competing lineages?
No, but I think Tyrion is 1/2 Targaryen. So he has both Lannister and Targaryen blood. Sansa is a Stark, but is close to the Baratheon lineage because of the close relationship of her father to Robert.
Would unify the main competitors.
I could see Tyrion being 1/2 Targaryen in the books but not in the show.
On a different note. A recent interview of the actor who plays the Night King indicated that the Night King is on a mission to kill a specific person. Can that be anyone other than Bran?
Agreed, on big differences between the books and show.
In the books I expect that the third dragon will be ridden by another Targaryen (not the Night King). I think that will likely be Tyrion.
On a different note. A recent interview of the actor who plays the Night King indicated that the Night King is on a mission to kill a specific person. Can that be anyone other than Bran?
It's pretty clearly Jon or Bran. There's nobody else that's had significant interactions with the Nigh King. I read a theory about him being after baby Sam because he feels cheated out of a kid that was offered to him but that seems like a stupid motivation.
Wow ... this is some deep stuff!
Just finished watching Season 7, so I've now seen the entire series twice. Loved it more the second time, and Mrs. 82 couldn't believe how good it was. She's mad at herself that she didn't watch it the first time around when I did! We're both looking forward to next month.
Interesting remark. Reminds me of something my wife and I talked about when True Detective Season 3 came on. We discussed whether to watch it each week or wait two months to watch it all at once.
I think one reason that GoT seemed better the second time through is that when bingeing, you remember way more detail from show to show. So much of the detail of what has happened is lost when you have to wait 7 days for the next hour. Netflix has spoiled all of us, I guess.
Chances are we will watch every Sunday night, but that decision is based mostly on being able to talk to people about the show on a weekly basis.
The Night King can't win, can he? Can he?
We only semi-binge-watched it. My wife has to wake up early every morning to work (Sugar Mamas have a tough life). So we only have about an hour in the evenings to watch TV. So it's not as if we would watch multiple episodes at a sitting. And we have other stuff we want to watch. Plus, we took about a month break between watching the end of Season 5 and the start of Season 6. So it took us many months to watch all 7 seasons.
Having watched it once before, I knew the arc of the series. I had a vague memory of the first few seasons, a better memory of the more recent ones. Watching it again led to many, "Oh yeah, THAT'S what happened to so-and-so" moments. Also, watching with a person who hadn't seen it before made me the "authority." Helping explain some of the more complex stuff to my wife actually made it more enjoyable to me. There were a few times we had to rewind to make sure we heard what we thought we heard or saw what we thought we saw. I did a good job of not "spoiling" some of the more shocking scenes. Like I didn't say, "Oh, wait till you see the Red Wedding in the next episode."
All in all, it was a very enjoyable experience, and we're looking forward to Season 8.
The Night King can't win, can he? Can he?
Happily, I was wrong about not being able to watch it live on HBO GO.
Enjoyed the episode very much. Moved the story forward nicely. A couple of nits, but nothing major.
Was Arya's drawn weapon one to take out the ice dragon, the night king, or both? Looks like a ranged dragon class weapon.
Was Arya's drawn weapon one to take out the ice dragon, the night king, or both? Looks like a ranged dragon class weapon.
Depends what comes up on the 20 sided die when you roll it.
Pity, she'll be dead within the year from the pox.
Which one?
Maybe it was just sky high expectations and hype, but I found the first episode to be pretty slow and boring. I'm sure it will pick up, but with only 6 episodes in the season I expected more.
The first episode of the season is always a bit slow in order to reset the pieces in the right place. Even in a 6 episode season I think it was necessary. On the flip side, I felt the reveal of Jon's parentage came out rather abrupt.
My main nit from last night was why would the Night King bother to "send a message"? Why wouldn't he just lay waste to everybody and everything? He doesn't seem like the subtle (or even not-so-subtle) message-sending type.
The first episode of the season is always a bit slow in order to reset the pieces in the right place. Even in a 6 episode season I think it was necessary. On the flip side, I felt the reveal of Jon's parentage came out rather abrupt.Initial reaction was it was slow but that's a fair point.
Maybe this is overly optimistic, especially with only a handful of episodes left, but I'm hoping this is the introduction of the white walkers as "just another house" in the sense that they have their own motivations and traditions and even sentimentality. I get that their supernatural origin will always mean they're very different from the human houses, but I think a more "I Am Legend" type of zombie (the book not the movie) vs a Romero brain stem only type of zombie would add a lot to a story that is in danger of disintegrating into chaotic plot development where I don't really care about any of the major characters. Between the Night King actor's slip about killing a specific person, the swirl sigil, etc., it seems we might be moving that direction.
Maybe it was just sky high expectations and hype, but I found the first episode to be pretty slow and boring. I'm sure it will pick up, but with only 6 episodes in the season I expected more.
The episode was 54 minutes, 5 minutes of which was watching Jon and Daenerys ride around on Dragons. 30 seconds of this would have been cool, but this just felt like filler.
Sure, there was some semi-interesting dialogue and set up, but nothing really happened. I give the episode a C-
One comment I'll make about the Arya thing w/ her weapon. I hope this isn't too spoilery (I dont' think it is because this is just rehashing old info), but remember all the prophecies about the prince that was promised, azhor Azai and the flaming sword and all that jazz. This fancy weapon really doesn't fit the bill and as awesome of a character Arya is, she doesn't have that prophecy fulfilling feel to her.
That being said, I think that foreshadows her being the one to take down the ice dragon so that Jon or whoever can ultimately take out the Night King.
No context summary
(https://preview.redd.it/lleeb6k15pt21.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=72c6850056036d0812d2a706acac6e5c1bf0e33c)
No context summary
(https://preview.redd.it/lleeb6k15pt21.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=72c6850056036d0812d2a706acac6e5c1bf0e33c)
Brilliant!!
Really liked this episode. Great cinematography, great scenes, strong dialogue.
And so it begins. Winter is most definitely here.
Just guessing on some deaths here.
Theon full circle. He dies protecting Bram.
Brianne knighted, everyone happy. She dies.
A lot of Jaime tonight, telling stories, songs. He dies.
A lot of Sam tonight. He dies.
Grey Worm saying goodbye. He dies.
No context summary
(https://preview.redd.it/lleeb6k15pt21.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=72c6850056036d0812d2a706acac6e5c1bf0e33c)
Well done!
Sorry at the length of this... I just want to make my new prediction internet permanent so I can go back after the show and brag about how right I was (or hide the thread forever if I'm totally off base).
First, my thoughts on the episode though.
I don’t think any of this is spoilery, but don’t read if you’re extremely cautious.
*******************************
As much as episode one was a reset for the season and putting the pieces in place, this one was all about connecting people who’ve long been due to connect, closure, and starting to wrap up old storylines. Arya/Gendry, the Mormonts, Ghost showing up again (barely), Theon/Sansa, Bran/Jamie, Arya/Hound, Brienne, Podrick becoming quite the figher to name a few. Not to mention beginning to address Jon’s parentage.
Overall, it really was a great “calm before the storm” feeling to the entire episode. They really all gave that sense of finality, that everyone expects to die. I liked the little light hearted moment when Tyrion said he thought he was going to live and they all chuckled. It was fun in the moment and after a sense of palpable dread feeling the whole time it gave me a shot of hope that some of them really will.
I still do not think Arya kills the Night King, but she is for sure going to do something very badass. I also think she dies a horrible death too but she’s going to be badass about her death too and welcome it like an old friend.
Also, does anyone else think the plan is kinda weak? Theon and his men are all that’s going to stand in the way? I think not. There will be more to that part. Perhaps this is where Arya will shine.
Even deeper spoilery stuff below. This are just my own guesses, but has minor spoilers from last nights episode:
************************************
Final rough guess at what happens…
Big battle obviously will happen. Theon and his men are no match for Night King a few of the others and maybe a small group of undead coming for Bran. Arya comes in as a badass killing a bunch of the others.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Someone with a Valyrian Steel sword tries attacking the Night King, perhaps Jorah w/ Heartsbane (I guess this because they really focused on the sword when Sam gave it to him) in order to save Daenarys that is hurt after a dragon fight between her/Drogon vs Night King/Ice Dragon. Jorah dies, the sword is taken by the Night King and kills Daenarys with it through the heart. Danny’s soul or whatever is imbued onto the sword when Jon pulls it out of her.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Jon kills the Night King with the nValyrian steel sword. This would fulfill several prophesies and connects a lot of clues such as Rhaegars son being the Prince that was Promised, the flaming sword of Azhor Azai (that was thrust through his wife’s heart), and the Last Hero (who was the original leader and founder of the Nights watch). All three of those I think are the same person written about in different histories across the world. Jon is the only one that fits the bill for all of them.
After that Jon wraps up taking the iron throne. Jamie, who sees his true love die (Brienne, not Cercei!) will be the one to kill his sister. Aegon Targaryen takes the throne. Perhaps a dragon survives, but probably not… Dragons and the Night king are forever gone from the world and a new age is born.
The only problem with this is that because of prophecies from the warlocks in Quarth and other stuff, I always thought Daenarys would take the throne. Perhaps she does indeed live and her and Jon rule together? Seems not to be Martin's style.
Sorry at the length of this... I just want to make my new prediction internet permanent so I can go back after the show and brag about how right I was (or hide the thread forever if I'm totally off base).
First, my thoughts on the episode though.
I don’t think any of this is spoilery, but don’t read if you’re extremely cautious.
*******************************
As much as episode one was a reset for the season and putting the pieces in place, this one was all about connecting people who’ve long been due to connect, closure, and starting to wrap up old storylines. Arya/Gendry, the Mormonts, Ghost showing up again (barely), Theon/Sansa, Bran/Jamie, Arya/Hound, Brienne, Podrick becoming quite the figher to name a few. Not to mention beginning to address Jon’s parentage.
Overall, it really was a great “calm before the storm” feeling to the entire episode. They really all gave that sense of finality, that everyone expects to die. I liked the little light hearted moment when Tyrion said he thought he was going to live and they all chuckled. It was fun in the moment and after a sense of palpable dread feeling the whole time it gave me a shot of hope that some of them really will.
I still do not think Arya kills the Night King, but she is for sure going to do something very badass. I also think she dies a horrible death too but she’s going to be badass about her death too and welcome it like an old friend.
Also, does anyone else think the plan is kinda weak? Theon and his men are all that’s going to stand in the way? I think not. There will be more to that part. Perhaps this is where Arya will shine.
Even deeper spoilery stuff below. This are just my own guesses, but has minor spoilers from last nights episode:
************************************
Final rough guess at what happens…
Big battle obviously will happen. Theon and his men are no match for Night King a few of the others and maybe a small group of undead coming for Bran. Arya comes in as a badass killing a bunch of the others.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Someone with a Valyrian Steel sword tries attacking the Night King, perhaps Jorah w/ Heartsbane (I guess this because they really focused on the sword when Sam gave it to him) in order to save Daenarys that is hurt after a dragon fight between her/Drogon vs Night King/Ice Dragon. Jorah dies, the sword is taken by the Night King and kills Daenarys with it through the heart. Danny’s soul or whatever is imbued onto the sword when Jon pulls it out of her.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Jon kills the Night King with the nValyrian steel sword. This would fulfill several prophesies and connects a lot of clues such as Rhaegars son being the Prince that was Promised, the flaming sword of Azhor Azai (that was thrust through his wife’s heart), and the Last Hero (who was the original leader and founder of the Nights watch). All three of those I think are the same person written about in different histories across the world. Jon is the only one that fits the bill for all of them.
After that Jon wraps up taking the iron throne. Jamie, who sees his true love die (Brienne, not Cercei!) will be the one to kill his sister. Aegon Targaryen takes the throne. Perhaps a dragon survives, but probably not… Dragons and the Night king are forever gone from the world and a new age is born.
The only problem with this is that because of prophecies from the warlocks in Quarth and other stuff, I always thought Daenarys would take the throne. Perhaps she does indeed live and her and Jon rule together? Seems not to be Martin's style.
Night King isn't in Winterfell. He rode the ice dragon south to King's Landing to create a second army. GRRM loves the LOTR series, and my guess is that the dead Starks in the Winterfell crypt have a large part to play in episode 3... You know, the dead coming back to life to save the day... but GRRM is a tad different... they may not save the day, but may indeed make it much much worse for the living.
Bran will likely agree to go North with the Night's King... who we will find out isn't just some mindless monster bent on destruction of the living.
To me there's still two or three maybe even four armies out there to capture Kings landing.
Main Greyjoy army
Fully army
Melisandre and her massive group
Howland Reed's army.
The last one may not come into play but I think he does because Danny said nobody around can vouch for Jon's lineage and she's wrong.
If the living prevail I expect those armies to be the next round of reinforcements to beat Cersei
I forgot all about Melisandre! She's going to come into play obviously, I just don't know how.
I've discounted an older Howland Reed showing up. For awhile I thought he'd come out to prove Jon is who is he, but the way Jon and Daenarys left it this week with "I know it to be true" made me feel like that wasn't going to happen.
Watched the episode early via a European leak on amazon.
Definitely was uncomfortable watching a certain scene when I was watching season 1, with everyone a lot younger just the other day...
Watched the episode early via a European leak on amazon.
Definitely was uncomfortable watching a certain scene when I was watching season 1, with everyone a lot younger just the other day...
One other question, as a non-watcher but a very aware pop culture person.....I know Maise Williams is 22, but what age is her character supposed to be? That makes a big difference to me whether someone should freak out or not.
One other question, as a non-watcher but a very aware pop culture person.....I know Maise Williams is 22, but what age is her character supposed to be? That makes a big difference to me whether someone should freak out or not.
Meh, a stron female character decided she wasn't going to die a virgin. Over thinking this.
Sorry at the length of this... I just want to make my new prediction internet permanent so I can go back after the show and brag about how right I was (or hide the thread forever if I'm totally off base).
First, my thoughts on the episode though.
I don’t think any of this is spoilery, but don’t read if you’re extremely cautious.
*******************************
As much as episode one was a reset for the season and putting the pieces in place, this one was all about connecting people who’ve long been due to connect, closure, and starting to wrap up old storylines. Arya/Gendry, the Mormonts, Ghost showing up again (barely), Theon/Sansa, Bran/Jamie, Arya/Hound, Brienne, Podrick becoming quite the figher to name a few. Not to mention beginning to address Jon’s parentage.
Overall, it really was a great “calm before the storm” feeling to the entire episode. They really all gave that sense of finality, that everyone expects to die. I liked the little light hearted moment when Tyrion said he thought he was going to live and they all chuckled. It was fun in the moment and after a sense of palpable dread feeling the whole time it gave me a shot of hope that some of them really will.
I still do not think Arya kills the Night King, but she is for sure going to do something very badass. I also think she dies a horrible death too but she’s going to be badass about her death too and welcome it like an old friend.
Also, does anyone else think the plan is kinda weak? Theon and his men are all that’s going to stand in the way? I think not. There will be more to that part. Perhaps this is where Arya will shine.
Even deeper spoilery stuff below. This are just my own guesses, but has minor spoilers from last nights episode:
************************************
Final rough guess at what happens…
Big battle obviously will happen. Theon and his men are no match for Night King a few of the others and maybe a small group of undead coming for Bran. Arya comes in as a badass killing a bunch of the others.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Someone with a Valyrian Steel sword tries attacking the Night King, perhaps Jorah w/ Heartsbane (I guess this because they really focused on the sword when Sam gave it to him) in order to save Daenarys that is hurt after a dragon fight between her/Drogon vs Night King/Ice Dragon. Jorah dies, the sword is taken by the Night King and kills Daenarys with it through the heart. Danny’s soul or whatever is imbued onto the sword when Jon pulls it out of her.
Arya kills the ice dragon. Night King kills her.
Jon kills the Night King with the nValyrian steel sword. This would fulfill several prophesies and connects a lot of clues such as Rhaegars son being the Prince that was Promised, the flaming sword of Azhor Azai (that was thrust through his wife’s heart), and the Last Hero (who was the original leader and founder of the Nights watch). All three of those I think are the same person written about in different histories across the world. Jon is the only one that fits the bill for all of them.
After that Jon wraps up taking the iron throne. Jamie, who sees his true love die (Brienne, not Cercei!) will be the one to kill his sister. Aegon Targaryen takes the throne. Perhaps a dragon survives, but probably not… Dragons and the Night king are forever gone from the world and a new age is born.
The only problem with this is that because of prophecies from the warlocks in Quarth and other stuff, I always thought Daenarys would take the throne. Perhaps she does indeed live and her and Jon rule together? Seems not to be Martin's style.
Meh, a strong female character decided she wasn't going to die a virgin. Over thinking this.
That's where I am on it, too.
Arya is a total bad-arse. I didn't think to be even a little uncomfortable about the scene. It made sense to me, especially after the way she flirted with Gendry the previous week.
And the line "I'm not the red woman, take your own damn pants off" was 100% bad-arse and in character.
Literally laughed out loud.
If Arya isn't my favorite GOT character, she's in my top 3!
Let's hear who the top 3 are! Personally I would say Jaime Lannister is my favorite. His character and personality have changed so much from season 1 it's hard to believe it's the same person. I think he is one of the truly good people left and his series of unfortunate events throughout his captivity probably molded him this way. Wouldn't be surprised if he has a hand in killing Cersei.
Never thought about who my top 3 are. But when I read this the there that came to mind were.
Arya
Brienne
Tyrion
Sad that it is a legitimate chance all three die in the next episode.
Let's hear who the top 3 are! Personally I would say Jaime Lannister is my favorite. His character and personality have changed so much from season 1 it's hard to believe it's the same person. I think he is one of the truly good people left and his series of unfortunate events throughout his captivity probably molded him this way. Wouldn't be surprised if he has a hand in killing Cersei.
Anyone think Tyrion betrays Dany/Jon and becomes an antagonist? That has been my running theory for about 2 seasons but it might be too late to pull that off.
Well he certainly can't have more than one hand in it.
Anyone think Tyrion betrays Dany/Jon and becomes an antagonist? That has been my running theory for about 2 seasons but it might be too late to pull that off.
Let's hear who the top 3 are! Personally I would say Jaime Lannister is my favorite. His character and personality have changed so much from season 1 it's hard to believe it's the same person. I think he is one of the truly good people left and his series of unfortunate events throughout his captivity probably molded him this way. Wouldn't be surprised if he has a hand in killing Cersei.
I'm digging this theory:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bdwuse/spoilers_extended_my_night_king_is_not_stupid/?depth=2
I still think the final battle happens at the Vale. In season 1 they make a huge deal of it being impregnable
Another theory out there:
But wait, there is one more piece to the prophecy in George R.R. Martin's books that did not make it into that scene in the show. The witch also tells Cersei: "And when your tears have drowned you, the Valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." "Valonqar" means "little brother" in Valyrian — and if we are taking that literally, that means Tyrion . . . or Jaime, who is her twin, but could technically be her "little brother" since he was born after her. (That really makes the incest somehow even grosser, right?) But it's also been theorized that her killer could be someone else entirely.
So, there's still a piece of the prophecy the witch predicted that we can look forward to: Cersei's murder!
https://www.popsugar.com/entertainme...rones-41057434
My slightly wild theories of GRRM's story, particularly the larger meaning and endgame (not who dies/who lives). An important thing is that I'm not sure the book and the show will have remotely the same final end game results/emphasis. Much of this stems from ideas in the books, and the fact that GRRM said he wanted to break the traditional fantasy genre of Good vs. Evil (Living vs. Dead).(https://media1.giphy.com/media/byYvc9meProt2/giphy.gif)
1. The meaning of the spiral is time. The world of Westeros is stuck in a spiral always wrapping back onto itself. So the people, and the Night King, are destined to be stuck into the same death spiral unable to escape. That is why the Night King and the 3-eyed raven can see both the past and future, they spiral back onto themselves.
2. The Night King's goal is to destroy the spiral, so that the world can be free and new. Similar goal to Dany's of destroying the Wheel, so that Westeros can be free.
3. Killing the 3-eyed raven is not to erase man, or its memories. It is simply to break the loop, so that the Night King can finally escape.
4. This relates back to Jenny's song, which is about a person unable to let go of their past, their ghosts, and instead dances with them for all eternity, because she never wants to leave. In order for rebirth to occur, we have to let go of the past and begin anew. The 3-eyed raven is stuck on the past, and all of mankind then is never free.
So it is a battle between life and death, but with the side aspect of rebirth and growth requires death. Just like the cycle of seasons.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/byYvc9meProt2/giphy.gif)
My slightly wild theories of GRRM's story, particularly the larger meaning and endgame (not who dies/who lives). An important thing is that I'm not sure the book and the show will have remotely the same final end game results/emphasis. Much of this stems from ideas in the books, and the fact that GRRM said he wanted to break the traditional fantasy genre of Good vs. Evil (Living vs. Dead).
1. The meaning of the spiral is time. The world of Westeros is stuck in a spiral always wrapping back onto itself. So the people, and the Night King, are destined to be stuck into the same death spiral unable to escape. That is why the Night King and the 3-eyed raven can see both the past and future, they spiral back onto themselves.
2. The Night King's goal is to destroy the spiral, so that the world can be free and new. Similar goal to Dany's of destroying the Wheel, so that Westeros can be free.
3. Killing the 3-eyed raven is not to erase man, or its memories. It is simply to break the loop, so that the Night King can finally escape.
4. This relates back to Jenny's song, which is about a person unable to let go of their past, their ghosts, and instead dances with them for all eternity, because she never wants to leave. In order for rebirth to occur, we have to let go of the past and begin anew. The 3-eyed raven is stuck on the past, and all of mankind then is never free.
So it is a battle between life and death, but with the side aspect of rebirth and growth requires death. Just like the cycle of seasons.
Unless George Martin let a little bit too much Wheel of Time series influence his writing, I just don't see this happening.
That said, sounds like you might enjoy the Wheel of Time series!
We'll, that is an ass kicking. I am going have to go to Endgame just to cheer up.
Not today.
Was great when the Dothrakis went in and only the horses returned. Outstanding. After that, cinematography was way, way, too dark. They made the lens as if it was frozen with arrival of Night King force and distracted from the battle scenes. Especially the dragons going after each other, I was clueless of what was going on.
Least I got it right Arya gets the King. Was she hiding in the tree?
Limited deaths of characters, sort of surprised.
Both dragons live?
Yeah, HBO getting ripped pretty good for the cinematography right now on social media. Not sure who died, couldn’t see a lot of it. May have to rewatch.
Great question on the dragons.
Yep, it was dark, but that was OK with me. It magnified the terror, the predicament, the mood. Even in the few scenes where I couldn't quite tell who was who, it didn't change the feeling I had watching it. Literally, on the edge of my seat.
I thought Arya would kill the Night King with her weapon, and was wrong about that ... but glad I got the "who" right. (I immediately rewound it to get another look at exactly how it happened. He got her to drop the knife, but she caught it with her other hand and stabbed that m-f'er!) One could say, "Oh, wasn't that convenient?" But we all knew that the Night King wasn't going to win. I mean, there are still 3 episodes left! I thought Arya doing it was pretty cool.
I was happy to see many of the more crazy theories espoused all over the interwebs not come true. I also was happy to see most of my favorite characters live on. And, as my wife noted, women ended being the biggest heroes -- Arya, Lady Mormont and, surprisingly for me, Melisandre.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all ends against Cersei's army. Maybe Arya gets her, too!
Agreed on nearly all fronts. The only thing is that the ending for the Night King, lacked meaning. We don't know his real goal, who created him, etc.
I think there are two reasons for that. The explanations are rooted in magic, which is ample in the books, but the show has shied away from a lot of the magic, and prophecy. It wouldn't make sense to introduce a lot of the magic/prophecy that is present in the books, at this last minute and still have it make sense.
Also, one of the prequel series rumored to be being planned by HBO revolves around the age of heroes, the Starks and the creation of the Night King.
But holy crap was this inexplicably bad storytelling.
Also, one of the prequel series rumored to be being planned by HBO revolves around the age of heroes, the Starks and the creation of the Night King.
How does she get past the wights to pull of the assassination? I have no problem with her as the killer, but the how part seemed cheap and unsatisfyingly easy.
How does she get past the wights to pull of the assassination? I have no problem with her as the killer, but the how part seemed cheap and unsatisfyingly easy.
Agreed on nearly all fronts. The only thing is that the ending for the Night King, lacked meaning. We don't know his real goal, who created him, etc.
How does she get past the wights to pull of the assassination? I have no problem with her as the killer, but the how part seemed cheap and unsatisfyingly easy.
According to an earlier episode, the Night King was created by the Children of the Forest for protection from the arrival of the first men to Westeros.
How does she get past the wights to pull of the assassination? I have no problem with her as the killer, but the how part seemed cheap and unsatisfyingly easy.
A couple different ways. She knows her way around the castle. The books have Bran in the first couple chapters explaining how one that can climb can get anywhere without anyone knowing. Arya also knows the castle that well.
Now in the final scene. It's actually kind of simple. GRRM emphasizes that the characters always make the wrong decision. The Night King, being prideful, needed to be the one to kill Bran. He had all his focus on Bran, so they had to focus there too (he controls them). His pride, led to his death. He could have just let the wights kill them all...but he had to be the one to do it, and it cost him his life.
Now in the end. I don't think any of this reflects the real Night King story. I think this will end up being a "the victors get to tell the story" type of thing. We will find out that the real story regarding the Night King and his goals are much much different. But we have to watch a whole new HBO series to find all that out.
In the books, there is no Night King as we know him in the show. He was a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch from thousands of years ago. He wasn't the first White Walker either.
Agreed. I think the prequel will link the two ideas. Where the Night King, was the first Lord Commander, and his 12 White Walkers, the 12 Lord Commanders before him.
If you'll notice they always have 12 White Walkers. The Night King in the books, was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's watch.
Perhaps. I was pretty sure the prequel dealt with Robert's Rebellion though... I know there are more *planned*, but isn't this the first one being made?
So a few nice circular plot points that I noticed from last night...
1) Theon Greyjoy: Raised in Winterfell, left with the intent of finding aid for the Starks in their coming war. Instead, he returned to take the castle from Bran, left again, then returned to defend Bran & Winterfell from the Night King.
2) Jorah Mormont: Once he was sentenced & exiled by Ned Stark. That was the same Ned Stark that tried to talk Robert Baratheon out of killing Daenerys Targaryean. Mormont returns to Westeros, and specifically to Winterfell, then dies protecting Daenerys, as Ned tried to do, in Ned's home.
3) Sandor Clegane, "The Hound": Scarred by fire, once froze up at the Battle King's Landing. This time, when he sees Arya facing the thing that Clegane fears, he steps up to save the girl that once robbed him and left him for dead.
4) Melisandre: She told us she would die in Westeros. In the final battle for Light, she was the one to reveal Arya as Azor Ahai reborn by asking "what do we say to death?", bringing full circle what Syrio Forel, who was from Essos like Melisandre, said to Arya in S1. Then, as promised, Melisandre died.
5) Littlefinger's Dagger: The Valyrian Steel dagger that was once intended to kill Bran Stark in S1 was used to save him. Instead of killing a Stark, it was wielded by a Stark to kill the Night King. The final lesson from Lord Baelish.
6) Arya Stark: The girl from Winterfell traveled to Essos to train, where the Lord of Light is worshiped. Then she fulfilled the Azor Ahai prophecy while coming home. Not only that, but to start the show, Bran was supposed to be a knight and Arya was supposed to grow to be a lady. Those tables turned at the end of the Battle of Winterfell as Arya was the warrior that protected Bran.
it was good but it's definitely become another generic hollywood show. There should've been a lot more deaths in the episode. It was dark, I had to brighten my screen to watch but I get the realistic sense they were going for. Getting annoyed that they promised us all this direworlf action and we've so far seen two split second scenes. Also disappointed that not a single White Walker fought in the battle dispite having all the valyrian steel swords in one place to set those battles up.
Didn't mind the Arya killing the NK but sort've annoyed that they built up the whole lightbringer prophecy with stannis and just tossed it out the window for the actual battle. And on that topic why did Melissandre even head to Volantis? No Fiery Hand, not even the other two casted red priestesses?
Last complaint, the NK is supposed to be unbelievably badass, but we saw him move to fight once in the entire series. All his actions are as follows
1) Touches baby's forehead
2) Raises arms
3) Throws spear
4) Falls off dragon
5) Raises arms
6) Badass killing of Theon
7) Catch Arya
Just sort of underwhelming, for all we know now the NK was never a real threat himself beyond magic.
Hmm....not sure about this episode.
It was so dark and difficult to see what was going on much of the time. Seemed a little to easy there at the end after the complete ass kicking for 99% of the episode.
I will be curious to see what the fans think.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because while I was watching it I wasn't thinking, "This is inexplicably bad storytelling."
How does she get past the wights to pull of the assassination? I have no problem with her as the killer, but the how part seemed cheap and unsatisfyingly easy.
Raising a massive army of the undead to do your bidding is sort of badass.
Agree agree agree +1000Well, they spent an entire season showing her being trained as an elite assassin capable to slipping past any defense to kill an intended target. Should we be so surprised the slipped past some distracted wights?
The only possible way I can think of is if she wore the face of a wight, but they gave no hint of that happening.
Raising a massive army of the undead to do your bidding is sort of badass.
I'm not sure the Night King story is done. His role is done, but I think we may learn that Bran was controlling, or at least communicating with, the Night King during the battle. Once the Iron Throne is settled, I think Bran will go back north of the Wall to become the new Night King, albeit to rest for years until his army is strong enough to march south.
I may be proven wrong, but I'd never bought the "Bran is the Night King" theory, and I'm buying it even less after last night's episode.
The problem is we are then led to believe Bran spent the entire battle controlling a few ravens. That seems unlikely when he could've been doing so much more.I think we’ll find out more from him later but perhaps he already knew how this was going down (he almost had a smirk on his face when NK approached) so he was busy doing other things. I also wouldn’t have put it passed him to be goading NK to the tree using the ravens.
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/29/18522174/r-i-p-night-king-we-wish-we-learned-your-secrets
I may be proven wrong, but I'd never bought the "Bran is the Night King" theory, and I'm buying it even less after last night's episode.
Also, given that the Night King was created involuntarily by the Children of the Forest, is the theory that Bran will go sacrifice himself to the Children (if any remain)? Why would he do that?
I think we’ll find out more from him later but perhaps he already knew how this was going down (he almost had a smirk on his face when NK approached) so he was busy doing other things. I also wouldn’t have put it passed him to be goading NK to the tree using the ravens.
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/29/18522174/r-i-p-night-king-we-wish-we-learned-your-secrets
But if you're a books/online theory person, the NK was a character who represented a lot of what makes the book's universe richer than the TV show's - and accordingly a lot of expectation was heaped onto him. From that perspective, last night was very dissatisfying, and I think there's a great argument to be had about whether that's fair or unfair to Benioff and Weiss, given the chasm between what the NK actually did on the show vs what those actions were expanded to mean by people with broader awareness of the universe as constructed in the books.
I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.
I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.
Edit: not that it's happening here, but Game of Thrones may be the only series in history that gets criticized by its fans for not killing off enough of their favorite characters.
What show are you watching? Its utter garbage, and is pandering to stupid people who can't think critically.
Edit: I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, Pakuni, but towards people in general that enjoyed that mess of an episode.
8 seasons of buildup of how scary the NK is, and how he seemed to be a step ahead of the living, and he gets nicked by ninja Arya out of nowhere? Also, the NK is basically a head vampire? AND YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT? What show are you watching? Its utter garbage, and is pandering to stupid people who can't think critically.
You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion.
But the whole "Anyone who enjoyed something I didn't enjoy is stupid" bit is lame.
It's OK for people to see the same piece of art and have different reactions to it. Your opinion of a TV show doesn't make you smart, and definitely not smarter than anyone else.
Oh, and I was fine with how Lost ended. In fact, I see a ton of parallels to the criticisms of GoT and Lost. Basically, some viewers are BIG MAD that the writers didn't give them the ending they wanted and failed to thoroughly explain every minute plot detail. Which is ironic given your claim that anyone who disagrees with your take is incapable of critical thought.
Dexter ended poorly.
Please keep Endgame talk to the other thread.
You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion.
But the whole "Anyone who enjoyed something I didn't enjoy is stupid" bit is lame.
It's OK for people to see the same piece of art and have different reactions to it. Your opinion of a TV show doesn't make you smart, and definitely not smarter than anyone else.
Oh, and I was fine with how Lost ended. In fact, I see a ton of parallels to the criticisms of GoT and Lost. Basically, some viewers are BIG MAD that the writers didn't give them the ending they wanted and failed to thoroughly explain every minute plot detail. Which is ironic given your claim that anyone who disagrees with your take is incapable of critical thought.
Dexter ended poorly.
Gah! His post got deleted but your quote of his lived on and ruined end game for me!Good call, fixed.
Luckily I don't care much but delete for others who might.
Why did Arya scream in the attack....the term is silent assassin, not screaming assassin.
I think we will see the dead appear again in the last episode as they appeared in the first....whether a new spawn or something completely different, but this isn’t over.
Umm Jon and the Mountain are still around so the dead are still around.
Well, they spent an entire season showing her being trained as an elite assassin capable to slipping past any defense to kill an intended target. Should we be so surprised the slipped past some distracted wights?
Viewing party......eruption
https://twitter.com/kitneka/status/1122857108762873859
Last night increased my belief that GRR Martin has no pages, and that Benioff and Weiss are pissing in the wind and felt written into a corner on the whole NK arc. Accordingly, I don't think we'll see the NK or wights again, other than maybe some sort of disconnected glowing blue eyes cliffhanger at the end of the last ep (especially in light of the prequel series forgetful referenced).
I've tried to reconcile how dissatisfied I feel and felt immediately after last night's episode vs '82's comments, and those by many others I know, that they feel good about how the NK's storyline wrapped up. And I think the difference is that if you're a "show only" person, the NK and wights are a device. They're an instrument for bringing things out of the other characters, and the exposition of their story (and consistency thereof) is not that important. They're essentially zombies who were brought to life by the Children of the Forest, got out of control, and needed to be stopped. So a Clue-like "Arya, under the weirwood tree, with Littlefinger's dagger" ending is sufficient because you only really cared about Arya anyway.
But if you're a books/online theory person, the NK was a character who represented a lot of what makes the book's universe richer than the TV show's - and accordingly a lot of expectation was heaped onto him. From that perspective, last night was very dissatisfying, and I think there's a great argument to be had about whether that's fair or unfair to Benioff and Weiss, given the chasm between what the NK actually did on the show vs what those actions were expanded to mean by people with broader awareness of the universe as constructed in the books.
Spot on. First off, some are never satisfied no matter what. They have an outcome in their own mind and anything that doesn't match up means the show is garbage.
Second, their is such a sprawl to the entire series that there is no way every thread can be wrapped up to perfection. So many storylines - going back thousands of years. So many houses. So many characters. There simply is no perfect ending.
Last night was not a huge surprise. We all knew the NK was going to utterly dominate in the battle. And we all knew that somehow he was going to be defeated. I had little doubt that it would be Arya - otherwise most of her storyline would have made no sense.
Now waiting for the personal attack from Hards - since he already called me (and many others) stupid. At least I now know that I am unable to think critically ;D ;D
Spot on. First off, some are never satisfied no matter what. They have an outcome in their own mind and anything that doesn't match up means the show is garbage.
I had no outcome in mind. My beef wasn't with the outcome, but how it was told. And yesterday's episode certainly wasn't garbage. But it did not live up to the prior 7 seasons we have enjoyed. It was poor storytelling and a disappointment.
I didn't mean it as a personal attack on anyone.
So, it had to be Arya? If her story mattered, why did they bother with the ENTIRE faceless man, face stealing part? Why didn't she just find a Bravosi water dancer like Syrio to complete her training? Wouldn't something more interesting (say her stealing the face of a wight, and then stabbing the NK) be a bit more of a call back to her story arc in Essos? Instead, we got a minor callback to her sparring with Brienne. Like, that's neat, but it ignores so much of her character.
Why couldn't it be Jon that kills the NK? That seemed like the most obvious outcome. They have been going at it for seasons now. Why isn't Dany a better foil to the NK? She is fire, and he is ice.
I didn't have any expectations last night going in but to be wowed. And I was, wowed. Just not with the lack luster story telling. Once Jorah rode back from the Dothraki death scene I was worried. When Greyworm was standing at the front of the assault and then somehow survived, I shook my head. And when we got Lyanna Mormont's death I knew what we were getting from here on out was lazy fan fic.
I'm not upset that every plot didn't get wrapped up, after all, there are still three episodes left. But at the same time, I doubt there was any point to some of the plots at all... we are just supposed to accept them as filler? That's fine, but then why write them in at all? I didn't say I was smarter than anyone, or that they were dumb for enjoying something that I didn't. I said they lacked critical thinking. I'm just surprised that after all the quality we got for years, that people are okay with what happened.
If that is the case fine, but then show us what she did. To spend 80 minutes on an episode and gloss over something so important is stupid.
Why does everything have to be spelled out? She knew her home inside and out. It's not difficult to imagine she could have navigated her way to where Bran was without being noticed. Not to mention doing so would have ruined the moment when she attacked the Night King. Sometimes it's ok not to show and explain everything.
But what if the whole point is that the humans were the biggest threat all along? Sure they banded together to defeat the obvious villain (who will show up in a prequel series I'm sure) but now they have nothing to do but turn on each other and what if the moral of this particular story is that humans only rise above their petty squabbling and lust for power when faced with a non-human existential threat?
Also, seems like the books rely heavily on magic at the core and the show doesn't so it's hard to explain magical things within the TV show.
There's a difference between spelling something out, and providing a believable explanation for one person to navigate between literally thousands of wights that decimated a Dothraki horde.
Also, seems like the books rely heavily on magic at the core and the show doesn't so it's hard to explain magical things within the TV show.
I didn't mean it as a personal attack on anyone.
So, it had to be Arya? If her story mattered, why did they bother with the ENTIRE faceless man, face stealing part? Why didn't she just find a Bravosi water dancer like Syrio to complete her training? Wouldn't something more interesting (say her stealing the face of a wight, and then stabbing the NK) be a bit more of a call back to her story arc in Essos? Instead, we got a minor callback to her sparring with Brienne. Like, that's neat, but it ignores so much of her character.
Why couldn't it be Jon that kills the NK? That seemed like the most obvious outcome. They have been going at it for seasons now. Why isn't Dany a better foil to the NK? She is fire, and he is ice.
I didn't have any expectations last night going in but to be wowed. And I was, wowed. Just not with the lack luster story telling. Once Jorah rode back from the Dothraki death scene I was worried. When Greyworm was standing at the front of the assault and then somehow survived, I shook my head. And when we got Lyanna Mormont's death I knew what we were getting from here on out was lazy fan fic.
I'm not upset that every plot didn't get wrapped up, after all, there are still three episodes left. But at the same time, I doubt there was any point to some of the plots at all... we are just supposed to accept them as filler? That's fine, but then why write them in at all? I didn't say I was smarter than anyone, or that they were dumb for enjoying something that I didn't. I said they lacked critical thinking. I'm just surprised that after all the quality we got for years, that people are okay with what happened.
There's a difference between spelling something out, and providing a believable explanation for one person to navigate between literally thousands of wights that decimated a Dothraki horde.
I think this is one of the biggest challenges. Magic is a lot more downplayed in the show than the books. Maybe they were right to do that. All us nerds are dying to know the hows and whys of bran, the night king, and the faceless men, but there's a reason why fantasy shows often struggle with larger audiences. The successful ones focus more on the human elements
I think you're giving GRRM (and humanity) far too much credit.
I didn't mean it as a personal attack on anyone.
So, it had to be Arya? If her story mattered, why did they bother with the ENTIRE faceless man, face stealing part? Why didn't she just find a Bravosi water dancer like Syrio to complete her training? Wouldn't something more interesting (say her stealing the face of a wight, and then stabbing the NK) be a bit more of a call back to her story arc in Essos? Instead, we got a minor callback to her sparring with Brienne. Like, that's neat, but it ignores so much of her character.
Why couldn't it be Jon that kills the NK? That seemed like the most obvious outcome. They have been going at it for seasons now. Why isn't Dany a better foil to the NK? She is fire, and he is ice.
I probably did over exaggerate when I said it was garbage. I should have probably said that it wasn't up to the standards we are used to for this show.
There's a difference between spelling something out, and providing a believable explanation for one person to navigate between literally thousands of wights that decimated a Dothraki horde.
As I said, you're wholly entitled to your opinion, and because I mean that, I won't argue over the details of the plot, etc.
That said, you complain of fan service in the choices the writers made, and yet demand fan service for the way you think it should have played out. See:
- "Wouldn't something more interesting (say her stealing the face of a wight, and then stabbing the NK) be a bit more of a call back to her story arc in Essos?"
- "Why couldn't it be Jon that kills the NK? That seemed like the most obvious outcome. They have been going at it for seasons now."
- "Why isn't Dany a better foil to the NK? She is fire, and he is ice."
As for the deaths/lack thereof for Jorah, Greyworm, Lyanna, etc., main characters' deaths need to serve the narrative of the story, not just rack up the body count. While you accurately note that GoT has willingly killed off popular characters, it always has been in furtherance of the story. Jorah dying offscreen with the Dothraki doesn't do that. Lyanna or Greyworm dying in at the hands (or teeth) of a random wight doesn't do that.
If your issue is that main characters sometimes escaping seemingly impossible situations (not to mention continuity and logic), then perhaps fantasy fiction isn't the thing for you.
You want a "believable explanation" in a show that has dragons, witches, bringing dead people back to life, etc.? The show is Fantasy - not day-to-day reality.
Right there is the problem. It started back with Arya getting stabbed a ton in the stomach in Bravos.
Its the consistency of it all. Robert Baratheon got gored by a warthog, and died bedridden a few days later after being cared for by a Maester. Arya gets stabbed multiple times in the stomach, and shakes that right off. Its stupid. Period. I'm fine with SOME things being unbelievable, but when we are beaten over the head with it ten times in an episode, its just lazy.
That isn't what he is saying, you're just being disingenuous. There is a world that has been created, and there seem to be some rules. Ignoring the rules or changing them this late in the game is objectively terrible.
I think this show/world DID change quite a bit when it moved beyond being a literary adaptation and became a TV show.
I really enjoyed this podcast today: https://www.theringer.com/2019/4/29/18523065/breaking-down-game-of-thrones-s8e3
Right there is the problem. It started back with Arya getting stabbed a ton in the stomach in Bravos.
Its the consistency of it all. Robert Baratheon got gored by a warthog, and died bedridden a few days later after being cared for by a Maester. Arya gets stabbed multiple times in the stomach, and shakes that right off. Its stupid. Period. I'm fine with SOME things being unbelievable, but when we are beaten over the head with it ten times in an episode, its just lazy.
That isn't what he is saying, you're just being disingenuous. There is a world that has been created, and there seem to be some rules. Ignoring the rules or changing them this late in the game is objectively terrible.
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/arya-gets-stabbed.gif?w=1000)
Point is, brew, that no one survies catching a ton of stabs to the gut in those days.
Pretty solid evidence that she's Azor Ahai reborn, and you don't think R'hllor might have been able to look out for Arya considering he resurrected Jon Snow & Beric Dondarrion multiple times? Suspension of disbelief isn't just recommended in fantasy, it's required.
Oh you got internet'd bro. Thats a video from England during the 2016 Euros. They've been superimposing videos for memes into it for almost 3 years.
Many of my issues were explained by others here. I just particularly hated the main "warriors". Jamie, Brienne, Tormund, etc... being absolutely OVERRUN by the wights for a few hours and somehow surviving. Hell, even Sam's worthless azz survived. That was just the kind of lazy storytelling you expect out of a cliche war movie, not ruthless GoT.
Also interesting, though not critical to the plot, one of the only times we've ever truly seen Varys show emotion or fear. He was clearly terrified.
Maisie Williams on finding out she kills the Night King (as reported by Entertainment Weekly):
"I immediately thought that everybody would hate it; that Arya doesn't deserve it. The hardest thing is in any series is when you build up a villain that's so impossible to defeat and then you defeat them...it had to be intelligently done because otherwise people are like, "well, [the villain] couldn't have been that bad when some 100-pound girl comes in and stabs him.'"
Well said.
I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.
Edit: not that it's happening here, but Game of Thrones may be the only series in history that gets criticized by its fans for not killing off enough of their favorite characters.
At least for me, my small problems with GoT, has nothing to do with theories spun online.
It has to do with the world and stories GRRM created in the books, and how the show violated core tenets of the actual world. Most of this deals with the Night King's story arc.
I really don't have a preference on how it ends, it just needs to be internally consistent with the world of Ice and Fire. The story of wanting to kill Bran to end the "memories of man" just isn't consistent. That's a bit disappointing from a World of GRRM standpoint. It really has nothing to do with online theories.
I personally wouldn't be surprised (as I mentioned before), if this whole story becomes false in the prequel. I also wouldn't be surprised if Bran ends up bad at the end of this. Melisandre suggest Bran is one of the Night King's generals in the books, and everything around the 3-eyed crow/Bloodraven suggest they are part of the God of Darkness (e.g. the Great Other).
That said, I understand why they did that from a show standpoint. I love the show. Think it is well done. Personally, I think there could be some improvements, like having an extra season, like I suggested before, but also understand why that is not the case. I said it last season and this, the issues with plot points are because they are a little rushed timeline wise and need to tie up a lot of lose ends, too much gets left unanswered.
Like what happened to Crastors babies that were turned to others without dying? Are they still around? Where are they? What is their purpose? and so many more.
"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
What? Based on what evidence at all?
She led the people against the darkness, Beric was brought back 6 times so he could save Arya, prophecies aren't always literal.
They just threw prophecy out the window. There's no rationale, even if you're using symbolism, for Arya based off the prophecy. Nothing wrong, but the writers should've said in the post interviews they decided to go a different direction or they felt the prophecy didn't necessarily mean defeating the night king personally but bringing everyone together
The problem is that novels and TV shows are two very different story telling mediums so you can't really compare the two. I mean if you want Bran to go into severe narrator voice and explain the NK motivations and origins for an episode or 3, you could get there but that seems boring as hell to me.
Exactly. I have no problem with Arya being AA or any of the three prophecies fulfilled. I have a problem with how lazy the writing was to get us there.
Harry Potter did the Deathly Hallows story in under three minutes, and it was brilliant. Bran doesn't have to narrate anything either. Sam went to the Citadel to forge his chain, but also to learn as much as he could about the Others. Bran and Sam and Tyrion as a group could have put their three knowledge bases together to discuss something about them for 3 minutes, and it would have been just fine.
At least for me, my small problems with GoT, has nothing to do with theories spun online.
It has to do with the world and stories GRRM created in the books, and how the show violated core tenets of the actual world. Most of this deals with the Night King's story arc.
I really don't have a preference on how it ends, it just needs to be internally consistent with the world of Ice and Fire. The story of wanting to kill Bran to end the "memories of man" just isn't consistent. That's a bit disappointing from a World of GRRM standpoint. It really has nothing to do with online theories.
I personally wouldn't be surprised (as I mentioned before), if this whole story becomes false in the prequel. I also wouldn't be surprised if Bran ends up bad at the end of this. Melisandre suggest Bran is one of the Night King's generals in the books, and everything around the 3-eyed crow/Bloodraven suggest they are part of the God of Darkness (e.g. the Great Other).
That said, I understand why they did that from a show standpoint. I love the show. Think it is well done. Personally, I think there could be some improvements, like having an extra season, like I suggested before, but also understand why that is not the case. I said it last season and this, the issues with plot points are because they are a little rushed timeline wise and need to tie up a lot of lose ends, too much gets left unanswered.
Like what happened to Crastors babies that were turned to others without dying? Are they still around? Where are they? What is their purpose? and so many more.
This is all fine and your points are well taken. But keep in mind that most of us show viewers didn't first read the books and it really doesn't matter to us whether the TV show aligns perfectly with what Martin created in the novels. While some of you mock the "Fan service" of the TV show, you're demanding your own type of fan service from the showrunners. That matters not at all to most viewers. And that doesn't, as some would have you believe, make us stupid or incapable of critical thought.
Re: The Crastor babies became white walkers, and hence would have been killed when the Night King died. This, like Arya's exact movements leading up to her leaping out at the NK, is not something I felt I needed to have my hand held through.
Right but you became a fan of the show because of the publicity it got for staying true to the books. Unless you started watching randomly and continued to watch and not like it until they brought Jon back and then thought it got good from there?
I only read the books since I moved to Galway so it's not like I've been hounding them to stick to the books since the beginning but there's a point where you have to admit they backtracked on a lot of what was set up even if you aren't a book reader. They could have not added those elements from the books but they did and should be held accountable to them tie up the loose ends
Nope. I've watched the show from the first episode, having never heard of the books at that point.
Why would someone start watching a TV show because it stayed true to books they've never read? That would be weird.
I guess this is where we differ. I'm just not seeing this great schism you speak of, or how they've "backtracked" on a lot of what was set up. Could you cite some specific examples of how the showrunners have backtracked? And by that I mean, I don't want examples of where you disagree with their narrative choices ... actual examples of backtracking.
Not to mention this was an 83 minute episode. And there is no cap on how long they are. If they wanted to go 100 minutes, HBO would let them. There is plenty of time to tell whatever story they want in whatever way they can think of. The "TV shows are different" doesn't really hold up. This is not a standard 42 minute network cable TV show with commercials. These could be full length films for each episode if they wanted (that's actually what we were promised a year or two ago, so much for that). There's really no excuse.
Lowest rated episode on rotten tomatoes since season 5 with 78% average is 94%
This is all fine and your points are well taken. But keep in mind that most of us show viewers didn't first read the books and it really doesn't matter to us whether the TV show aligns perfectly with what Martin created in the novels. While some of you mock the "Fan service" of the TV show, you're demanding your own type of fan service from the showrunners. That matters not at all to most viewers. And that doesn't, as some would have you believe, make us stupid or incapable of critical thought.
Re: The Crastor babies became white walkers, and hence would have been killed when the Night King died. This, like Arya's exact movements leading up to her leaping out at the NK, is not something I felt I needed to have my hand held through.
Showrunners have a tough path to walk.
I love the "characters in rooms talking" episodes and scenes. Other viewers want all action. Other viewers want strict Canon (even with parts unyet written by Martin). Others want the prophecy/story to play out based on whatever theory they like best
Tough situation.
Love the show. Possibly the last epic show that no one will binge watch
This is all fine and your points are well taken. But keep in mind that most of us show viewers didn't first read the books and it really doesn't matter to us whether the TV show aligns perfectly with what Martin created in the novels. While some of you mock the "Fan service" of the TV show, you're demanding your own type of fan service from the showrunners. That matters not at all to most viewers. And that doesn't, as some would have you believe, make us stupid or incapable of critical thought.
Re: The Crastor babies became white walkers, and hence would have been killed when the Night King died. This, like Arya's exact movements leading up to her leaping out at the NK, is not something I felt I needed to have my hand held through.
Re. Castor babies. That doesn't fit the narrative of the show or the book. If that is the real explanation, it is sloppy writing for the sake of a cool seen where a babies eyes turn blue.
An exposition, even a short one, would not have fit well in that episode. And how do we know there's wont be more explanation before the series ends?
You're not listening to me at all. I don't expect the show to be faithful to the books at all. If that were the case, I would not have watched the show at all! What I do expect is that the narrative is consistent with the world that had been created over the last decade. If the writers introduce plots and prophecies and then just disregard them because they are difficult to wrap up, then its fair to call out their bad writing. If a character who is surrounded by enemies would have died in seasons 1-6, but is somehow immune to death at this point... we get to call out bad writing as well... Right?
It definitely fits in the narrative of the show, maybe both. In fact, don't Craster's wives refer to the White Walkers as "Craster's sons."
From a GoT wiki:
In the episode "Oathkeeper" the fate of Craster's sons is revealed when a White Walker riding an undead horse takes the last son of Craster and carries him towards a shattered mountain in the Lands of Always Winter.
Once inside, the White Walker approaches an icy altar ringed by large icy spikes and places the baby upon the altar. In the distance, a group of thirteen black-garbed White Walkers are revealed to be viewing the proceedings from afar. One of them breaks from the middle of their number and approaches the altar, stopping to regard the human child for a moment before gently gathering him in its arms. The baby immediately calms, staring into the face of the White Walker. It places its index finger upon the baby's cheek, causing the child's eyes to slow turn to icy, depthless blue and his skin to grow pale, transforming him into another White Walker.
As for the books, I haven't read them, but according to the GoT wiki:
In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, Craster's wives are convinced that the baby boys given by Craster to the Others are, in turn, transformed into new Others. However, no such event has ever been witnessed in the books so far.
Craster's wives do say that they believe that the infant sons that Craster gave the Others as sacrifices were turned into new White Walkers - but it wasn't clear if this is what actually happens, or if it was just the wild suspicion of Craster's frightened, isolated wives. When Samwell is told to flee with Gilly and her newborn son, Gilly urges that if he doesn't "they" will come for him. When he asks who "they" are, another wife says: "The boy's brothers...Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."
Confirmation of what exactly happens to Craster's sons has not occurred in the books yet.
So, while we can't say for certain that's what happens in the books, it's appears to be the only possibility mentioned so far. Unless the wiki is wrong, which is always possible.
So you're suggesting no one got out of an improbable situation in the first six seasons.
Tywin showing up just in the nick of time to save the day in Blackwater doesn't ring familiar?
Sansa somehow gets the Knights of the Vale to the Battle of the Bastards just as all seemed lost for Jon and his men?
Sorry, but heroes escaping improbable odds is not an invention of the showrunners, or something that goes against the tenents of the novels.
So you're suggesting no one got out of an improbable situation in the first six seasons.
Tywin showing up just in the nick of time to save the day in Blackwater doesn't ring familiar?
Sansa somehow gets the Knights of the Vale to the Battle of the Bastards just as all seemed lost for Jon and his men?
Sorry, but heroes escaping improbable odds is not an invention of the showrunners, or something that goes against the tenents of the novels.
So you're suggesting no one got out of an improbable situation in the first six seasons.
Tywin showing up just in the nick of time to save the day in Blackwater doesn't ring familiar?
Sansa somehow gets the Knights of the Vale to the Battle of the Bastards just as all seemed lost for Jon and his men?
Sorry, but heroes escaping improbable odds is not an invention of the showrunners, or something that goes against the tenents of the novels.
I'm just not seeing this great schism you speak of, or how they've "backtracked" on a lot of what was set up. Could you cite some specific examples of how the showrunners have backtracked? And by that I mean, I don't want examples of where you disagree with their narrative choices ... actual examples of backtracking.
I think I agree with you here Pakuni - I actually don't see a ton of inconsistencies since Benioff and Weiss ran out of source material, but instead a pronounced shift in narrative focus. But I also think that they have been skating on the reputation that the show earned by staying pretty faithful to the books through its first, what, six years or so? So from that standpoint, I do think there is a valid expectation that the character of the show would remain faithful to that, and criticism is valid when it doesn't.
The Ringer podcast that Hards linked yesterday made the very good point - what was the last gut punch, shocking death that actually affected the audience? Maybe Oberon? At any rate, it was a death that was pulled from the books. And this isn't a criticism based on body count or bloodlust or just wanting shock purely for shock's sake. Its the confident writing that is willing to do that because it knows where its going. And to me that's whats missing since Benioff and Weiss outpaced the books - they strike me as playing it much safer, and to the extent they're taking risks, they're doing it with battle scenes and visual spectacle. And for folks that thought they had a more personal connection or fidelity to GRRM's material, that's disappointing. Is that a fair expectation to put on them? Reasonable minds can certainly disagree on that.
After reading every comment here, I feel so silly to be enjoying this season. I should be screaming about how very, very disappointed and disillusioned I am.
Anyhoo, I haven't read this theory about who ascends to the crown after Sersei meets her doom (though it probably has been espoused by somebody either here or elsewhere):
What if it's Gendry, with Arya as his bad-arse queen? He is Robert's rightful heir, and haven't folks been talking about a royal Baratheon/Stark union forever?
Maybe that can only happen if either Jon/Dany both die or if Jon/Dany agree to it for some reason, or (more likely because I'm not a super-deep-overthinker when it comes to GoT) maybe I'm missing something that would make it impossible.
If you want to compare those situations that's fine. Those are entire armies that were on the move. I can easily get past that. Its realistic. The undead crashing through the armies, and then totally surrounding singled out main characters and being unable to kill them? Ridiculous.
I think I agree with you here Pakuni - I actually don't see a ton of inconsistencies since Benioff and Weiss ran out of source material, but instead a pronounced shift in narrative focus. But I also think that they have been skating on the reputation that the show earned by staying pretty faithful to the books through its first, what, six years or so? So from that standpoint, I do think there is a valid expectation that the character of the show would remain faithful to that, and criticism is valid when it doesn't.
The Ringer podcast that Hards linked yesterday made the very good point - what was the last gut punch, shocking death that actually affected the audience? Maybe Oberon? At any rate, it was a death that was pulled from the books. And this isn't a criticism based on body count or bloodlust or just wanting shock purely for shock's sake. Its the confident writing that is willing to do that because it knows where its going. And to me that's whats missing since Benioff and Weiss outpaced the books - they strike me as playing it much safer, and to the extent they're taking risks, they're doing it with battle scenes and visual spectacle. And for folks that thought they had a more personal connection or fidelity to GRRM's material, that's disappointing. Is that a fair expectation to put on them? Reasonable minds can certainly disagree on that.
Everything you write here is fair and I agree with a bunch of it (though not necessarily that the character of the show has shifted as dramatically as some seem to think).
My main contention here is not that the showrunners are above reproach or criticism, but that much - not all - of the criticism revolves around the same kind of fan service that critics decry, they just want a different kind of fan service. And, also of course, that it's silly to call someone stupid because they enjoyed an episode you didn't.
One point about "gut punch" deaths ... I think outside perhaps Arya and maybe Daenys, there are no eligible candidates for gut punch deaths by this point in the series. Would anyone have been shocked if Jon or Tyrion or Jamie or Brienne died Sunday night? Saddened, sure, but not shocked. The show has trained its viewers to accept and except such deaths that they can no longer be truly shocking. To the contrary, viewers speculate endlessly and craft theories and scenarios about who's next, depriving any element of real surprise, and some actually get mad or disappointed or decry the lack of realism when main characters aren't killed off. Hard to feel a gut punch in those circumstances.
People seem to take the stance that:
The show runners handled everything perfectly because I enjoy the show (yeah not mutually exclusive concepts), so criticisms of the show creation are totally unfounded.
It is both possible to love the show, and the books, but find criticism in how it was filmed/written etc.
After reading every comment here, I feel so silly to be enjoying this season. I should be screaming about how very, very disappointed and disillusioned I am.
There is a difference between fan service (pandering to desires of fans) and being true to the universe created by the author.
But I wholly agree with you regarding the show vs. the book. That's why I really enjoy the show; I do my best to separate them.
Re. Castor babies. That doesn't fit the narrative of the show or the book. If that is the real explanation, it is sloppy writing for the sake of a cool seen where a babies eyes turn blue.
I think that we will still see white walkers/night king. There is an emphasis on balance in the world GRRM created. That applies to balance between the Great Other, and R'hllor. Winter and Summer, Darkness and Light, and Death and Life. Destroying one completely, would suggest there is no longer a balance.
I am arguing nothing different.
Nor have I claimed anybody handled anything "perfectly."
And, while we watched it, my wife and I discussed some of the less believable stuff -- a discussion that was possible because there was so little dialogue in this episode. For example, we thought it ridiculous that the Dothraki were immediately decimated while a zillion zombies couldn't kill Jorah and Dany.
But we also were highly entertained.
Then again, we were/are entertained by "24" and "Stranger Things" and "Ozark" and "Friday Night Lights" and many other quality shows of yesteryear and today that take some leaps of faith.
And, of course, it cracks me up that folks demand "realism" from a show that features good dragons, a bad dragon, people being brought back to life to do good, zombies being brought back to life to do bad, a woman who can survive a fire that burns everybody else to a crisp, a ton of magic, etc.
Hey, I would never say somebody else isn't entitled to his or her view on any of this. All I say is that I'm entertained.
That it apparently bugs more than a few people (not you) that I have the temerity to be entertained by this season also cracks me up.
Its as if you just type whatever you're thinking without reading anything anyone else has said.
I know you are using sarcasm, but honestly, don't be. That is what I find weird about arguments on here. People seem to take the stance that:
The show runners handled everything perfectly because I enjoy the show (yeah not mutually exclusive concepts), so criticisms of the show creation are totally unfounded.
It is both possible to love the show, and the books, but find criticism in how it was filmed/written etc. I'm a film buff from the standpoint of the art of filming, writing, scene selection, and music. I also love books from the standpoint of the art of writing.
There are some films I watch, and books I read, for pure entertainment value. I don't care if they have crappy cinematography etc. It is just plain fun. There are other books I read/films I watch, for the pure art of it.
Game of thrones was unique. It was so brilliantly done from an art standpoint, and brilliantly enjoyable from a just plain fun standpoint. And, the aspects were brilliantly intertwined (not easy to do). Usually when you try to intertwine them it does not work well, either the "plain fun" crowd doesn't get the art, or the "plain fun" aspects dilute the scene/art quality. The show has suffered a bit with the latter. A few examples (aided by rewatching).
1. After rewatching, the darkness of this episode was brilliant from an art standpoint. The use of shadows and lighting was very well done, and created a unique and eerie feeling. From a "plain fun" standpoint, it made it harder for a casual audience to follow along.
2. Episode 3 had some of the most amazing use of music in the shows history. Maybe outdoes the use of music in Westworld (where it is also brilliantly used).
3. For the plain fun crowd, Jorah magically showing up, the Winterfell crypt scenes, an army of undead decimating and entire army, but being unable to kill a few isolated and surrounded people, and others distracted from the art aspects. This episode didn't have too much that disrupted from the art, but many previous episodes have.
I continue to love GoT from a great show standpoint, but it has lost some its art value over the past two seasons. Some aspects like the music, still are going strong. The closing music was so brilliant in the last episode (as was the last shot of Melisandre dying). It doesn't make it less enjoyable, but it could still be better. I criticize the elements that could be improved.
BRAVO. Spot on.
Part of what made GoT so amazing and "different" was GRRM is a crazy, twisted old loon. So many of the happy ever after or standard fantasy constructs were gone. Your fav character in the lead credits of the show could be killed at any moment. Not even at the end of an episode or season or epic sequence.
The show once it got past the books lost a lot of that. "Evil" characters vanquished, heroes surviving against all odds. It got too serving of the viewer IMO.
I still love the show, its appointment viewing for me every week. Its just different
BRAVO. Spot on.I'm in the minority, as someone who likes good people to come out OK and bad people to get their comeuppance in my entertainment. (I'm still pissed 40 or 50 years after first seeing It's a Wonderful Life that Potter didn't get his, SNL notwithstanding). So I like it better like this. When Ned Stark died, my first thought was, "Why am I watching this if they're gonna kill all the people I like?" I really liked Jorah and Lyanna Mormont.
Part of what made GoT so amazing and "different" was GRRM is a crazy, twisted old loon. So many of the happy ever after or standard fantasy constructs were gone. Your fav character in the lead credits of the show could be killed at any moment. Not even at the end of an episode or season or epic sequence.
The show once it got past the books lost a lot of that. "Evil" characters vanquished, heroes surviving against all odds. It got too serving of the viewer IMO.
I still love the show, its appointment viewing for me every week. Its just different
I'm in the minority, as someone who likes good people to come out OK and bad people to get their comeuppance in my entertainment. (I'm still pissed 40 or 50 years after first seeing It's a Wonderful Life that Potter didn't get his, SNL notwithstanding). So I like it better like this. When Ned Stark died, my first thought was, "Why am I watching this if they're gonna kill all the people I like?" I really liked Jorah and Lyanna Mormont.
Unrelated quick question. I thought the Night King could only raise from the dead those whose death he was responsible for. By that I mean the people/animals he killed himself, or the Whitewalkers he turned killed or any people the Wights killed. Was that wrong, since he raised long dead Starks? Or was he or his "killing lineage" responsible for the death of the Starks that did rise?
As it began moving toward the end of the show don't you start expecting some comeuppance for the bad guys? For example, Ramsey's fate was completely earned. As much as viewers loved the fact that anyone could die at any time, continuing to lose characters people care about can become tiresome and also begin to lose some of its impact.
I haven't read the books but from what I understand the most recent ones paled in comparison to his earlier work. That's just based on what I've read about them, though.
I'm in the minority, as someone who likes good people to come out OK and bad people to get their comeuppance in my entertainment. (I'm still pissed 40 or 50 years after first seeing It's a Wonderful Life that Potter didn't get his, SNL notwithstanding). So I like it better like this. When Ned Stark died, my first thought was, "Why am I watching this if they're gonna kill all the people I like?" I really liked Jorah and Lyanna Mormont.
Final note: I thought the darkness was good choice in terms of cinematography. It’s not their fault people don’t have their TVs set up properly! If nothing else, viewers could just jack up the contrast/brightness. But let this be a lesson next time you buy a tv and get razzle dazzled by the bright shiny tv’s in the store without actually researching what makes a tv good.
Also, Melisandre ended up being pretty pointless along the way, except to bring Jon back. I actually wish she wasn’t the source of Jon came back because then you can say she was a severely flawed character (flawed person, not flawed in the writing) the whole time. But this would fall into the “fan service” category, which I have no expectations that a show should make decisions based on how I think the story should, so I can easily overlook this part. The only parts I have trouble overlooking are those that do a 180 on common themes that have held for the last near-decade of shows.
I can just picture some of you in a book club... whenever someone questions why a writer made a decision that they made, suddenly you would bark at them asking why they'd dare question anything about the writing!
::)
You can enjoy entertainment while also discussing what you liked/didn't like.
I can just picture some of you in a book club... whenever someone questions why a writer made a decision that they made, suddenly you would bark at them asking why they'd dare question anything about the writing!
::)
You can enjoy entertainment while also discussing what you liked/didn't like.
I can just picture some of you in a book club... whenever someone questions why a writer made a decision that they made, suddenly you would bark at them asking why they'd dare question anything about the writing!
::)
You can enjoy entertainment while also discussing what you liked/didn't like.
Agreed. Sometimes it feels like people watch with the sole focus of nitpicking and complaining, especially if things didn't happen the way they wanted or expected. Not necessarily referring to anyone here but that just feels so common now.
Melisandre was mostly an exposition character, but she had a great final episode. If you couldn't figure it out on your own, you now know why Beric kept getting brought back from the dead, and she let everyone know that Arya is the one who was going to take care of NK, which actually was counterproductive for the episode. However, she was the impetus for Arya going after the Night King. Plus she got the Dothraki sword fire going, and later got the fire moat (or whatever they called it) started when it appeared it would not happen. Both times she gave the defenders of Winterfell (and the audience) hope, and both times the hope was dashed by two of the best visuals of the episode, the powerful Dothraki army being snuffed out so quickly and the wights lying over the fire to build a passageway through the fire.
Probably a better final episode than she deserved after what she did to Stannis' daughter.
FWIW, the cinematographer has put some of the blame on HBO for the way it compressed the images.
Also, my TV handles blacks well, so I didn't find the episode too dark for my liking.
Here is a good article that laments some of what I'm referring to. It speaks of the changes to some of the most cunning and plot driving characters once the show writers no longer had Martin for source material.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/30/18522060/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-melisandre-tyrion-lannister-long-night-prophecies-tactics
lmao. Whatever dude, I know where you're going with this. At least your writing isn't as bad as the GOT staff on ep 3. ;D
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bjjjjj/actual_footage_of_the_writers_after_episode_3/
I know that Ghost survived the long night. Although highly unlikely I wonder if Ghost and/or Nymeria kills Cersei as she was the one who ordered their sibling, Summer, executed by Ned Stark. Now that would be justice.
One can fantasize about a fantasy series.
https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bjjjjj/actual_footage_of_the_writers_after_episode_3/
Re-watched the episode last night. A common complaint that I had read was people wondering how Ayra made it from where she was to attack the night king (which I didn't think was that hard to believe considering her skills and that she knew Winterfell inside and out). Another was why did Jon try to take on Viserion at the end, as he obviously would have had no chance.
Upon watching it again it sounds and looks like Jon is yelling "Go!!!". At that point I believe Viserion was guarding the NK. Jon catches sight of Ayra and yells "go" while he distracts the dragon. You can tell Ayra wasn't already hiding because a wisp of hair of one of the NK's commanders blows in the air as she runs by him to attack the NK.
If this in fact what happen it makes more sense to me.
I've seen this theory. Not sure I believe it.
Is it the whole thing or a portion you don't believe? Have you rewatched that specific part I'm referring to?
Is it the whole thing or a portion you don't believe? Have you rewatched that specific part I'm referring to?
I'm also in the camp of he wasn't yelling go. I think it's just fans trying to make sense of a ridiculously stupid scene.
I don't think the theory was necessary. Arya was in the Great Hall, it is close to the Godswood and multiple ways to get there, that wouldn't necessarily be difficult to navigate through. Especially since the Night King and his Wights attention were all on Bran.
It unnecessarily invokes Jon as the hero. Not to mention it would have been impossible for Jon to know that Arya was even there. That would be more ridiculous than Arya making it to the Godswood.
The one scene that makes no sense, is why was Jorah a quarter mile outside Winterfell, away from the fight, to magically save Dany.
The only rational way to explain some of those aspects, and it would have been cooler if they showed it, would have been if Bran was Warging into specific people to put them in the right places. Way cleaner, and give Bran purposes besides using some crows.
I'm also in the camp of he wasn't yelling go. I think it's just fans trying to make sense of a ridiculously stupid scene.
stupid twitter leaks :'(
This is why I avoid the twitterverse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqI4AJLmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7m6HP95EDM&feature=youtu.be
Rewrite of episode 3. In general way better. I don't think you need to do the Bran is the Night King angle to improve the story line. It could still end the same way with Bran alive, and him failing to figure out what happened in the past.
Also, Green Eyes...Lannisters...Cersei?
I think somehow Jamie is going to die enroute to Cersei, Arya will get his face, and then she will kill Cersei.
Anybody else notice the Starkbucks cup in the background?
The Hound and Arya riding on horseback. He's headed to Kings Landing and she joins him.
Arya: You going to Kings Landing?
Hound: I have some unfinished business
Arya: Me too
The Hound means he wants revenge on his brother, The Mountain
Arya means Cersei.
I believe Arya uses the faceless man thing and is the one who kills Cersei. Who's face is up for grabs at this point.
As far as who gets the Throne, my new guess is Sansa, if possible. Dragon Lady has had a rough week, losing Jormant, another dragon, her best friend, men of the north calling Jon the King, Jon Snow's devotion, Sansa's dislike, Varys wanting her out and now she wants to burn down Kings Landing in revenge. The look on her face at the end says it all.
Uhhhh Sansa has zero claim. If Jon and Dany don't take it or make it, and Cersei dies, rightfully, the crown goes to Gendry Baratheon.
Uhhhh Sansa has zero claim. If Jon and Dany don't take it or make it, and Cersei dies, rightfully, the crown goes to Gendry Baratheon.
Decent episode. It still is getting to play out too much like fan fiction. The Jamie/Brienne path, the cheesy Sam/Gilly scene with Jon.
REALLY didn't like them cutting away from Bran revealing the truth about Jon to Sansa and Arya. Starks are so close and tight, that revelation has been building for the entire series, so not see the reaction was disappointing.
So Bronn just teleports to the North and sneaks past EVERYONE to kick in the door on Tyrion and Jamie? Ok.
There were no scouting ships? Just Dany and the Dragons, who again are flying stupidly low and taking any advantage of being high in the sky? Also, these magical ships of Euron are getting a bit much. Neither Dragon or Dany noticed A WHOLE FLEET of ships until they shoot a perfect laser into a moving target. I get they are developing dragon-killing crossbows, but the first two shots were laser guided missiles, come on. And how come every Navy in the kingdom isn't using them if they explode ships like that?
Jon and Ghost also made no sense. In the books Ghost is his shadow. Literally never leaves his side. But he goes off into the wilderness with just a Jerimiah Johnson head nod?
That being said. The ending 15-20 minutes was fantastic. The dialogue and acting between Tyrion and Ceresi was fantastic. Seeing her nearly break before returning to ruthlessness is always enjoyable to watch. Episode 5 is supposed to be HEAVY.
(and yes, I enjoyed the episode. Its just frustrating how lazy the writing has been at times)
There were no scouting ships? Just Dany and the Dragons, who again are flying stupidly low and taking any advantage of being high in the sky? Also, these magical ships of Euron are getting a bit much. Neither Dragon or Dany noticed A WHOLE FLEET of ships until they shoot a perfect laser into a moving target. I get they are developing dragon-killing crossbows, but the first two shots were laser guided missiles, come on. And how come every Navy in the kingdom isn't using them if they explode ships like that?
All of your comments are valid, but particularly this one. Not scouting is really strange. How about just having Bran roll his eyes back in his head and send a raven or 10 to see what they are doing in King's Landing to prepare? Maybe he won't do it and all, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.
Hate what sansas become. The starks are about honor and Loyalty and then boom she breaks her path to Jon like 10min later. She does nothing to indicate she cares about her people "were down here because were useless" they've turned her into a mini northern littlefinger scheming to get all the power.
I hope she ends up stuck in the vale nursing her cousin/husband lamenting life
Decent episode. It still is getting to play out too much like fan fiction. The Jamie/Brienne path, the cheesy Sam/Gilly scene with Jon.
REALLY didn't like them cutting away from Bran revealing the truth about Jon to Sansa and Arya. Starks are so close and tight, that revelation has been building for the entire series, so not see the reaction was disappointing.
So Bronn just teleports to the North and sneaks past EVERYONE to kick in the door on Tyrion and Jamie? Ok.
There were no scouting ships? Just Dany and the Dragons, who again are flying stupidly low and not taking any advantage of being high in the sky? Also, these magical ships of Euron are getting a bit much. Neither Dragon or Dany noticed A WHOLE FLEET of ships until they shoot a perfect laser into a moving target. I get they are developing dragon-killing crossbows, but the first two shots were laser guided missiles, come on. And how come every Navy in the kingdom isn't using them if they explode ships like that?
Jon and Ghost also made no sense. In the books Ghost is his shadow. Literally never leaves his side. But he goes off into the wilderness with just a Jerimiah Johnson head nod?
That being said. The ending 15-20 minutes was fantastic. The dialogue and acting between Tyrion and Ceresi was fantastic. Seeing her nearly break before returning to ruthlessness is always enjoyable to watch. Episode 5 is supposed to be HEAVY.
(and yes, I enjoyed the episode. Its just frustrating how lazy the writing has been at times)
I think Sansa is the most interesting character left. More moral ambiguity plays out in her scenes and decisions than the rest of the characters combined, and Sophie Turner has really improved as an actress as the show has worn on. You could argue that any disloyalty she shows toward Jon shows increased loyalty to the North and her people.
Decent episode. It still is getting to play out too much like fan fiction. The Jamie/Brienne path, the cheesy Sam/Gilly scene with Jon.
REALLY didn't like them cutting away from Bran revealing the truth about Jon to Sansa and Arya. Starks are so close and tight, that revelation has been building for the entire series, so not see the reaction was disappointing.
So Bronn just teleports to the North and sneaks past EVERYONE to kick in the door on Tyrion and Jamie? Ok.
There were no scouting ships? Just Dany and the Dragons, who again are flying stupidly low and not taking any advantage of being high in the sky? Also, these magical ships of Euron are getting a bit much. Neither Dragon or Dany noticed A WHOLE FLEET of ships until they shoot a perfect laser into a moving target. I get they are developing dragon-killing crossbows, but the first two shots were laser guided missiles, come on. And how come every Navy in the kingdom isn't using them if they explode ships like that?
Jon and Ghost also made no sense. In the books Ghost is his shadow. Literally never leaves his side. But he goes off into the wilderness with just a Jerimiah Johnson head nod?
That being said. The ending 15-20 minutes was fantastic. The dialogue and acting between Tyrion and Ceresi was fantastic. Seeing her nearly break before returning to ruthlessness is always enjoyable to watch. Episode 5 is supposed to be HEAVY.
(and yes, I enjoyed the episode. Its just frustrating how lazy the writing has been at times)
ayyyyy it was really really bad again! Love the people throwing in their two cents that they liked it. I bet you guys like fireworks and glitter too.
I think somehow Jamie is going to die enroute to Cersei, Arya will get his face, and then she will kill Cersei.
Hate what sansas become. The starks are about honor and Loyalty and then boom she breaks her path to Jon like 10min later. She does nothing to indicate she cares about her people "were down here because were useless" they've turned her into a mini northern littlefinger scheming to get all the power.
I hope she ends up stuck in the vale nursing her cousin/husband lamenting life
Decent episode. It still is getting to play out too much like fan fiction. The Jamie/Brienne path, the cheesy Sam/Gilly scene with Jon.
REALLY didn't like them cutting away from Bran revealing the truth about Jon to Sansa and Arya. Starks are so close and tight, that revelation has been building for the entire series, so not see the reaction was disappointing.
So Bronn just teleports to the North and sneaks past EVERYONE to kick in the door on Tyrion and Jamie? Ok.
There were no scouting ships? Just Dany and the Dragons, who again are flying stupidly low and not taking any advantage of being high in the sky? Also, these magical ships of Euron are getting a bit much. Neither Dragon or Dany noticed A WHOLE FLEET of ships until they shoot a perfect laser into a moving target. I get they are developing dragon-killing crossbows, but the first two shots were laser guided missiles, come on. And how come every Navy in the kingdom isn't using them if they explode ships like that?
Jon and Ghost also made no sense. In the books Ghost is his shadow. Literally never leaves his side. But he goes off into the wilderness with just a Jerimiah Johnson head nod?
That being said. The ending 15-20 minutes was fantastic. The dialogue and acting between Tyrion and Ceresi was fantastic. Seeing her nearly break before returning to ruthlessness is always enjoyable to watch. Episode 5 is supposed to be HEAVY.
(and yes, I enjoyed the episode. Its just frustrating how lazy the writing has been at times)
Cersei has absolutely no decency. Why wouldn't she have just had her minions rain arrows down on Tyrion, Dany, Jon, etc.? They were sitting ducks. Would have ended the war before it began (which of course is why she didn't).
Many reasonable points here. I'll add something that I thought while watching:
Cersei has absolutely no decency. Why wouldn't she have just had her minions rain arrows down on Tyrion, Dany, Jon, etc.? They were sitting ducks. Would have ended the war before it began (which of course is why she didn't).
Like you, despite some warts, I nevertheless enjoyed the episode. Others who didn't, that's cool. Not sure why they don't watch something "good" instead.
As for who kills Cersei, I really like the Arya with Jaime's face idea. Still, part of me thinks, "Arya killed the Night King and now she's gonna kill Cersei, too? What is this, Game of Arya?"
And I've been saying Gendry is my darkhorse candidate for the throne.
Tyrion came into range of the arrows. The rest of the party didn't.....though those scorpions on the wall....
Tyrion came into range of the arrows. The rest of the party didn't.....though those scorpions on the wall....
Don't you remember the battle of the bastards. A good bowman can hit a running individual from ~100 yards, with a single kill shot.
Because you can't unwatch something. Episode two was amazing. I'm not going to just say screw it after this long. I'm riding this crap wave right into Malibu baby.
ayyyyy it was really really bad again! Love the people throwing in their two cents that they liked it. I bet you guys like fireworks and glitter too.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/giphy.gif)
Whether or not they were out of range of arrows, they were in range of the Scorpions, and we saw what they could do.
Simple fact is Cersei didn't kill them for the same reasons why the Evil Villain didn't kill 007 the zillion times he could have, or why Jack Bauer didn't die 1,000 times or why the Joker didn't just shoot Batman in the head, or ...
Because if you do that, the show ceases to exist.
Fair enough, Hards. I hope you keep "enjoying" it.
ayyyyy it was really really bad again! Love the people throwing in their two cents that they liked it. I bet you guys like fireworks and glitter too.
ayyyyy it was really really bad again! Love the people throwing in their two cents that they liked it. I bet you guys like fireworks and glitter too.
Another low effort comment. Not surprising that you seem to like the writer's low effort as well!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/37cc293b1667d8ce6cf2ac96a204492b/tenor.gif)
I didn't say I was a big fan of the episode, did I? The fact that you think you're the arbiter of what is good and what isn't is amusing to me. Ultimately, it makes you sound like a douche.
Ah, so everyone's but my opinion matters.
Got it.
Ah, so everyone's but my opinion matters.
Got it.
Not at all. You're perfectly free to think most of this season has sucked and share that opinion. But you've been a condescending turd when it comes to your comments on people who don't share your views on the quality of some of the episodes or regarding some of the specific criticisms (see fireworks and glitter comment above).
Ah, so again, your opinion matters, but mine doesn't because its mean spirited.
Got it.
Incorrect.
Are you incapable of expressing your opinion without being a d-bag about it?
Dude, its okay to continue to watch a program that you find major problems with. I don't watch TV to shut down my brain. If I did, then I'd be watching reality TV, karaoke TV, et al.
Dude, I have never seen one second of any reality TV show ever.
I happen to like GoT this season. And, if you have read any of my posts, you see that I do realize there are plot holes, silly situations, etc. But I still like the story, still like most characters, and still get enjoyment out of the series. Is it as good as previous seasons? Some episodes yes, some no. Then again, previous seasons had episodes one could say the same about.
And I do know how it is to feel one has to keep watching just to see what happens. I might be the only person in America who watched the entire season of John From Cincinnati. And I forced myself to watch the final season of House of Cards, too. I'll never get that time back.
Having said that, GoT at its worst, worst, worst, worst, worst, worst, worst moments is 1,000 times better than John From Cincinnati and the final season of House of Cards.
It's OK if you disagree, but everybody who disagrees with you isn't automatically "wrong." You're just another dude or dudette with an opinion, as the rest of us are.
Second, there are actually three people who watched the entirety of John From Cincinnati - you, me, and my wife.
Make that four.
Though, I confess, I was hate-watching it by the end.
Agree completely, Mike.
I, too, have never watched a second of reality TV. Even though I know a contestant on The Voice this year, I still couldn't stoop that low.
Second, there are actually three people who watched the entirety of John From Cincinnati - you, me, and my wife.
Dude, I have never seen one second of any reality TV show ever.
I happen to like GoT this season. And, if you have read any of my posts, you see that I do realize there are plot holes, silly situations, etc. But I still like the story, still like most characters, and still get enjoyment out of the series. Is it as good as previous seasons? Some episodes yes, some no. Then again, previous seasons had episodes one could say the same about.
And I do know how it is to feel one has to keep watching just to see what happens. I might be the only person in America who watched the entire season of John From Cincinnati. And I forced myself to watch the final season of House of Cards, too. I'll never get that time back.
Having said that, GoT at its worst, worst, worst, worst, worst, worst, worst moments is 1,000 times better than John From Cincinnati and the final season of House of Cards.
It's OK if you disagree, but everybody who disagrees with you isn't automatically "wrong." You're just another dude or dudette with an opinion, as the rest of us are.
I don't disagree with you here. And I enjoy it for what it is. But its a far cry from being good.
fwiw, I never watched the final season of HoC, that show fell off a cliff for me. ASOIAF is my favorite book series, and is probably my favorite TV show. But to watch the hack job that is this season is and then see people call it good? It makes me question if we were watching the same show. Because I assume that anyone who can think critically would see this for what it is. An utter disappointment.
I don't disagree with you here. And I enjoy it for what it is. But its a far cry from being good.
fwiw, I never watched the final season of HoC, that show fell off a cliff for me. ASOIAF is my favorite book series, and is probably my favorite TV show. But to watch the hack job that is this season is and then see people call it good? It makes me question if we were watching the same show. Because I assume that anyone who can think critically would see this for what it is. An utter disappointment.
Never read one word in the books, so they are as irrelevant to me as a book about housebreaking a rhino would be. I'd submit that you and other readers of the books are significantly influenced by them as you judge the show, but that's only my opinion.
I also enjoy it for what it is: entertainment. I am entertained, and I like the show. You are free to be not entertained, although you must be at least somewhat entertained if you "enjoy" it at all.
I don't disagree with you here. And I enjoy it for what it is. But its a far cry from being good.
fwiw, I never watched the final season of HoC, that show fell off a cliff for me. ASOIAF is my favorite book series, and is probably my favorite TV show. But to watch the hack job that is this season is and then see people call it good? It makes me question if we were watching the same show. Because I assume that anyone who can think critically would see this for what it is. An utter disappointment.
Actuallllllllllly, it's factually correct.
Apparently you are more intelligent than others here. You obviously subscribe to that notion.
Although, for you to call someone a "weird dude" because they don't agree with your nauseatingly repeated opinion on a TV show, your ignorance is on full display.
I have a lot of similar feelings about the episode. I hate how quickly and clumsily they are wrapping up some of the pieces. But I loved that last scene, easily my favorite of this season
Never read one word in the books, so they are as irrelevant to me as a book about housebreaking a rhino would be. I'd submit that you and other readers of the books are significantly influenced by them as you judge the show, but that's only my opinion.
I also enjoy it for what it is: entertainment. I am entertained, and I like the show. You are free to be not entertained, although you must be at least somewhat entertained if you "enjoy" it at all.
I think Hards' point is that this show was so much more than just entertainment for its first 4+ seasons. The fact that that this season is merely entertainment says a lot about how far it has fallen.
I think Hards' point is that this show was so much more than just entertainment for its first 4+ seasons. The fact that that this season is merely entertainment says a lot about how far it has fallen.
Apparently you are more intelligent than others here. You obviously subscribe to that notion.
Although, for you to call someone a "weird dude" because they don't agree with your nauseatingly repeated opinion on a TV show, your ignorance is on full display.
The show is not as good this season as it was in prior seasons. That happens in TV all the time, including most of the best shows ever to grace the screen.
Some shows really fall into an abyss and are not worth watching, and I stop watching most of those (but, as I said, I continued watching some, much to my regret). I happen to think GoT has not fallen anywhere near that level; indeed, I still like it for what it is.
It's a freaking TV show. Entertainment is exactly what it is, all it ever was and all it ever will be.
The novels? Same.
We can argue until we're blue in the face about the value and quality of said entertainment, but it's still just entertainment.
Scripts of 5 and 6 leaked. People are freaking out saying the ending is absolutely terrible. Haven't read them and don't plan to.
Has there ever been a popular and/or critically acclaimed TV series that's had an ending that hasn't provoked that kind of a response.
People are still big mad about The Sopranos and Seinfeld (and Dexter and MASH and Lost and Roseanne and ....)
I think the problem is that when you have a hot TV show, its in everyone's best interests (writers, network, etc...) to keep the money train rolling. And too often it leads to running out of ideas/stretching things thin. If you have a definitive end to the story, it usually works out. But if you dont, or you're made to write past it, you get an issue.
Sopranos ending was fine and made sense, people just didn't like the ambiguity. Seinfeld was just weird. Dexter's final season was horrible leading up to that nonsense. I think endings can get plenty of buffer of opinion if it makes sense/fits the tenor of the narrative or show. Its when it doesn't that people get upset. People were fine with The Wire, with Sons of Anarchy, Boardwalk Empire
All my opinion of course.
Has there ever been a popular and/or critically acclaimed TV series that's had an ending that hasn't provoked that kind of a response.
People are still big mad about The Sopranos and Seinfeld (and Dexter and MASH and Lost and Roseanne and ....)
The office salvaged their last god awful seasons with an incredible ending. I liked the sopranos ending. And as mentioned breaking bad seems to be the gold standard for everything.
And yet some people were not at all happy with the ending of Breaking Bad.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-closure-happy-breaking-bad-finale
My point being, no matter how GoT ends, plenty will be unhappy because ti's not the ending they wanted. And that's fine, too.
I have to say, I actually liked dexter's ending, probably the only person who does. Last season was terrible and the way they ended things with the sister was awful but the very ending is exactly how I thought the show needed to end.
Breaking Bads ending, like most of breaking bad IMHO, is overrated.
Best ending to a network show that I can think of is House. Show quality dipped terribly in the last season but they wrapped it up perfectly.
I wont be reading spoilers for th last episodes but I will leave this here. Its absolutely not a spoiler, but an indication of how the actors seem to feel.
https://streamable.com/tanow
I have to say, I actually liked dexter's ending, probably the only person who does. Last season was terrible and the way they ended things with the sister was awful but the very ending is exactly how I thought the show needed to end.
Breaking Bads ending, like most of breaking bad IMHO, is overrated.
Best ending to a network show that I can think of is House. Show quality dipped terribly in the last season but they wrapped it up perfectly.
I’m with you TAMU, never could get into Breaking Bad.
I gave it many, many attempts but after watching like one or two episodes at a time I stopped and didn’t come back to it for another 6 months. Rinse and repeat and I finally gave up in the middle of season two.
Point being, you’re never going to make everyone happy with a TV show. It’s just never gonna happen.
I have such a hard time understanding how anyone could be dissatisfied with Breaking Bad's ending. It was outstanding.
As mentioned earlier, Parks & Rec did a really nice job as well.
I feel like Cheers did a good job too but it's been so long since I watched it I could just not be remembering correctly.
The Scrubs main ending was great as well. Before they destroyed it with that awful medical school spinoff
Agreed on all points.
And yet some people were not at all happy with the ending of Breaking Bad.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-closure-happy-breaking-bad-finale
My point being, no matter how GoT ends, plenty will be unhappy because ti's not the ending they wanted. And that's fine, too.
I don’t want to nerd out too much here… but a show that is similar to GoT in that the drama, politics, and character building supersedes the sci-fi/fantasy aspect and is very watchable by people who are not into sci-fi/fantasy, is Battlestar Galactica. Not only that, but the epic story line built throughout the seasons is not only nearly as good as GoT, but it wrapped up and concluded in a very satisfying way. If GoT seasons 1-6 were a 10 out of 10, I’d give that show a 8.5 or 9 out of 10 and recommend it to anyone who isn’t overly deterred by the sci-fi aspects.
I don’t want to nerd out too much here… but a show that is similar to GoT in that the drama, politics, and character building supersedes the sci-fi/fantasy aspect and is very watchable by people who are not into sci-fi/fantasy, is Battlestar Galactica. Not only that, but the epic story line built throughout the seasons is not only nearly as good as GoT, but it wrapped up and concluded in a very satisfying way. If GoT seasons 1-6 were a 10 out of 10, I’d give that show a 8.5 or 9 out of 10 and recommend it to anyone who isn’t overly deterred by the sci-fi aspects.
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/9/18537794/game-of-thrones-ending-too-quickly-pacing
This sums up where I'm at.
Also, Jaime and cersei's ending? Gtfo
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/9/18537794/game-of-thrones-ending-too-quickly-pacing
This sums up where I'm at.
Also, Jaime and cersei's ending? Gtfo
Best episode so far but some gripes:
Euron and his fleet are expert marksmen from miles away but can't hit the dragon right next to them?
Jamie's entire character development is out the window?
The golden company just sort of seems like a waste, they're the most expert sell swords more than the unsullied, second sons etc and have all the targ connections and they just die like that?
My problem is with Euron's previous success with the scorpions. This episode was much more realistic in that regard.
Agreed on Jaime. Makes sense with original character. Throw out the Brienne scene and this could be reasonable.
Agreed on the golden company. They should have had them switch sides, because the Iron bank betrayed Cersei to support the legitimate heir, Jon.
All that is problems with previous episodes this season, this one, in a vacuum was very well done.
Best episode so far but some gripes:
Euron and his fleet are expert marksmen from miles away but can't hit the dragon right next to them?
Jamie's entire character development is out the window?
The golden company just sort of seems like a waste, they're the most expert sell swords more than the unsullied, second sons etc and have all the targ connections and they just die like that?
D+ episode, and I think that is being generous. Par for the course this season.
First, the positive: Visually there were some interesting/fun things: Drogon coming out of the night to execute Varys. The battle/dragon fire had some visually stunning work. The Clegane battle was cool (although meaningless from a storytelling perspective).
The Negative: Just about everything else. The whole Dany "mad queen" evolution was rushed, from a storytelling perspective. I know what they were trying to do, but it just wasn't believable. The war was won. There was no reason to destroy HER capital city. Sure, toast Cersei and the Red Keep, but nothing else made sense.
It was out of character for Varys to get caught so easily. This felt rushed.
Jamie acted completely opposite to his character development.
Also out of character for Arya to go all that way and then just turn around without killing Cersei.
The outcome was completely predictable, but how we got there made no sense. Worst of both worlds from a storytelling perspective.
The only positive is that GRRM has a huge opportunity to tell this story in a much more satisfying way.
Forgot about this. I'm just done with Arya in general, she keeps going from super badass to terrified and desperate for help. Either make her Brienne level brave or just show it all to be a front. Back in bravos she's running and terrified of the Waif, then turns into a badass. During the battle for winterfell, she's kicking ass then suddenly hits her head and is terrified of everything. Then is a ninja, then suddenly need the hound to save her. Last night she's all calm and sneaks into the red keep, then shes terrified and cowering during the battle.
Just done very poorly
I think this all keeps very consistant. She never did quite become a faceless "man" like she was being trained to become. If she had, she would no longer care about anything having to do with Arya Stark's life and she would have no name.
But also, the reason she snapped to is because of The Hound saying to her "You don't want to be like me" that made her realize that the badass Arya she had become was going to ultimately destroy her. She snaps out of it and wants to live again... not to mention have feelings again (thus wanting to help the mom and her girl and being so emotional at the devastation).
She has her skills, she'll use them when needed... she's just learning how to be this new Arya/Faceless combination person. Hopefully without the need for a peptalk from The Hound, the Red Woman, or anyone else going forward.
OH! Forgot a major part!
The Mad Queen:
People have been speculating that Dany would become the mad Queen like her father. I think last night proved it... in her rage against Cercei and Jon making her choose the "feared" leader path instead of loved, she fulfill that role that people feared she'd become. If you doubt it, look as the city burned and the random hidden cache's of wildfire left from the Mad King days... as the city burned it set off the wildfire exactly how the Mad King tried to do before Jamie killed him to stop it.
Regarding Jamie...
Some of you are saying Jamie's story arc was undone, but I actually feel like this was the completion-come-full-circle for him. This basically shows us that maybe he never "changed" during the series, he was ALWAYS an honorable man who did the right thing except when it involved his sister.
Its not that the mad queen thing wasn't foreshadowed or that even the result is so preposterous...its just how lazy and bad the storytelling was that got us thereI don't know if lazy is the right word. More like rushed.
I don't know if lazy is the right word. More like rushed.
It seems Danaerys went from zero to completely mad in just two/two and a half episodes. When the bells rang and she realized the fulfillment of her dream with almost no civilian casualties, she decides to kill everyone and everything in her own kingdom, including endangering her own soldiers? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just saying she went from point A to point B too fast in the arc of the story, solely because of the show runners decision to get the season over so quickly. Don't know why they couldn't have had a regular 10 episode season and flesh everything out a little more.
Minor quibble when you think about it. No matter what they did a big chunk of the fan base wasn't going to like it. It's just that they unnecessarily boxed themselves into a corner by making the last season so short.
I don't know if lazy is the right word. More like rushed.
It seems Danaerys went from zero to completely mad in just two/two and a half episodes. When the bells rang and she realized the fulfillment of her dream with almost no civilian casualties, she decides to kill everyone and everything in her own kingdom, including endangering her own soldiers? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just saying she went from point A to point B too fast in the arc of the story, solely because of the show runners decision to get the season over so quickly. Don't know why they couldn't have had a regular 10 episode season and flesh everything out a little more.t.
Agreed. They didn’t need 15 episodes to ruin all this. Just 10 seems like it would have sufficed, and saved us all a bunch of time.
It was out of character for Varys to get caught so easily. This felt rushed.
FWIW HBO offered the Double D's 10 episodes for season 8. After seeing how rushed everything has been, it is especially weird they turned it down in favor of 6.
This, there's no conceivable reason I can think of that anyone would turn down the practically unlimited budget and chance to make a full season for this and last season. They should've handed the show off if they felt that they weren't able to devote their full attention to it.
They wanted to move on to make their stupid Confederate show that nobody is clamoring for
Sucks that you're being forced to watch.
Are they going to be handling the spin offs?
Arya: I have to go see a man about a horse.
While I agree the season seems rushed (well, because it is), if you really think Danaerys becoming a mad queen was sudden, you haven't been paying attention. The GIF I posted above is, I believe, from season 2.
- also in season 2, she promised to "lay waste to our enemies and burn their cities to the ground" (Sound familiar?)
- she torched the Khals
- she fed some leaders of Mereen to her dragons and had to be talked out of doing worse
- she torched the Tarlys
- and the show has hit us over the head to make sure we understand there's at least a 50-50 chance any Targaryen would be mad
I'm sure there are other examples, but the point is this was not a sudden or unexpected transformation.
This. 7.5 seasons of a full character arc/change, undone in 10 minutes
The difference for me is that this was mass innocents. Torching the Khals, the leaders of Mereen, and the Tarlys, even Varys, those were all either executions or the leaders of her enemies. If she did the same to Cersei, no problem. But there was nothing in her character to justify the slaughter of tens of thousands (conservatively) of commoners in King's Landing after the battle was won. That's not a slight turn, that's a 720° Exorcist level turn. If they wanted to foreshadow wanton destruction, they could've done it over the years, this was completely unprecedented.
Respectfully disagree. I recall instances in which she was willing to burn cities to the ground, only to be talked out of it.
From Season 2:
“We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
From Season 6:
“I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That’s my plan.”
She's always had this streak in her, but the people she trusted around her were able to talk her out of such extreme violence. Now, with her best friend killed in front of her, feeling betrayed by Jon and increasingly aware that she'll never be loved and welcomed in Westeros as a benevolent emancipator, she breaks and the madness comes out.
So what are people's predictions for the final episode?
- Dany will execute Tyrion for freeing Jamie. She almost has to at this point.
- Arya will try to kill Dany and fail. Dany will execute her. I feel Arya has to die because she's become the hero of the story and she's probably the one character whose death no one is expecting.
- Jon will lose it with Arya's death; she was always his favorite of the Starks. He will kill Dany, then refuse the throne.
- With no Targaryean heir, Gendry Baratheon, now the lawful heir of Robert, will take the throne.
- Sansa will die. Not sure how or by whose hand, but I think she dies. That's why in the pre-season trailer, Jon's statue was of an old man while Sansa & Arya still looked young.
How does Dany even know Jamie was freed? He is dead.
- Dany will execute Tyrion for freeing Jamie. She almost has to at this point.
Arya kills Dany.
Browns eyes. Blue eyes. Green eyes. And a white horse.
can I ask why you're placing faith in the White horse prophecy when it wasn't in the show and they've shown previously that they're more than willing to toss prophecy out the door?George RR Martin didn't invent the symbolism behind the appearance of a white horse.
FWIW HBO offered the Double D's 10 episodes for season 8. After seeing how rushed everything has been, it is especially weird they turned it down in favor of 6.
Arya kills Dany.
Browns eyes. Blue eyes. Green eyes. And a white horse.
Respectfully disagree. I recall instances in which she was willing to burn cities to the ground, only to be talked out of it.
From Season 2:
“We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
From Season 6:
“I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets afire. I will kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That’s my plan.”
She's always had this streak in her, but the people she trusted around her were able to talk her out of such extreme violence. Now, with her best friend killed in front of her, feeling betrayed by Jon and increasingly aware that she'll never be loved and welcomed in Westeros as a benevolent emancipator, she breaks and the madness comes out.
How does Dany even know Jamie was freed? He is dead.
She will know Jamie was freed by his obvious lack of being present, and she will know Tyrion did it because her guards will know Tyrion was the last person who visited him. There's no other explanation for why Jamie isn't still a prisoner.
Maybe....
but, the show started with Jamie and Cersei, in a tower by themselves, setting the entire chain of events in place. It is fitting that they die together in a tunnel - by themselves.
They started and ended the same way - sneaking away.
It is the same reason for the weird Bronn scenes. Nothing to do with the actual story lines.
Yes, there is a cyclical aspect to this. But creating a scene simply for a callback to season 1, when it is inconsistent with the current story is not good writing. It is bad writing and bad scene design.
This would have been a perfectly fine ending if:
1. Jamie goes North to fight for the living, as promised.
2. After the battle is over, he does not make overtures towards Brienne. Instead he says he needs to return to his family. He sneaks out, or is allowed to escape by Tyrion.
3. Scene plays out as before.
As it was done, they created a redemption arc for Jamie. He abandoned Cersei entirely, recognizing her as evil. He completes this redemption by joining the most pure and honorable person on the show, Brienne. He then just abandons all of this, because his sister might actually have a chance to win??? It doesn't work.
This was done for one reason, and one reason only, executives at HBO, who listen to Q scores, insisted a Jamie/Brienne love scene would be good for ratings. They then insisted it get written into the scripts. It is the same reason for the weird Bronn scenes. Nothing to do with the actual story lines.
That is why the later seasons have declined in quality (in terms of writing), and part of the reason why D&D were ready for all of this to end.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/f19a05ee2eb7e7cb81a933ae34f4ca25/tumblr_preocuTgou1wbznk8_540.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/t2p3bx9jekx21.jpg)
Finally watched it. Loved it. Yes it was rushed. Whole damn season was rushed. That's what happens when you try to wrap months of events in like 8 hours. Another visually beautiful episode with lots of great moment. I loved the scenes with Arya trying to escape King's Landing.
Don't get the criticism of Jaime, this is exactly how his character would go. The Clegane Bowl was solid though fan servicey. Dany's decent into madness was a tad rushed, though not as rushed as people think. This has always been a part of here. She's just had Jorah, Missendre, and others to talk her out of it in the past. She lost too much so as this side of her grew stronger, there was no one to counterbalance it. It doesn't make sense that she would nuke the city? Of course not! Madness doesn't make sense.
Don't get the criticism of Jaime, this is exactly how his character would go. The Clegane Bowl was solid though fan servicey. Dany's decent into madness was a tad rushed, though not as rushed as people think. This has always been a part of here. She's just had Jorah, Missendre, and others to talk her out of it in the past. She lost too much so as this side of her grew stronger, there was no one to counterbalance it. It doesn't make sense that she would nuke the city? Of course not! Madness doesn't make sense.
And Dany, it was just all too abrupt and fast. She preached fire and brimstone about her enemies and her armies. She was always sympathetic to the commoners. Her leveling the Red Keep to prove a point would make sense, just a switch flipping which lead to her committing mass genocide was a bit absurd, and again, sloppy.
And yet there are multiple instances in the show dating back to at least season 2 (and in the books, as well, from my understanding) of her expressing a desire to destroy entire cities, only to be talked out of it by her trusted advisors. Now, with what advisors she had either dead (Missandei, Ser Jorah) or, in her mind, having betrayed and failed her (Jon, Tyrion), there was no one there to talk her off the ledge, so to speak.
Criticism that the show has been rushed is completely fair and accurate. But arguing that Dany turning mad queen was out of nowhere is just wrong.
D&D may have been over GoT. I don't know how you would get that from the post show interviews. That's akin to criticizing Wojo for the huddle cams.
The point with Jamie is they wasted a bunch of time and narrative on the relationship with Brienne, which was largely fan service in execution and then abruptly swung it around and wrapped up the story with him and Cersie in that weak climax. His overall arc throughout the story was fine, but again the execution was sloppy.
Data from the Social Security Administration show that since the HBO version of "Game of Thrones" first aired in 2011, at least 3,500 American girls have been named either 'Daenerys' or 'Khaleesi' (one of the character's royal titles) in her honor.
Why is Dany the mad queen? I would have done the very same thing to prevent my enemy from having the ability to make war. Was Lincoln the mad President after Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground started his march to the sea burning and destroying everything in his path. Was Truman the Mad President ordering the atomic bombs on Japan in hopes of ending the war sooner?
OK, which if you is behind this?
https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers
So what are people's predictions for the final episode?
- Dany will execute Tyrion for freeing Jamie. She almost has to at this point.
- Arya will try to kill Dany and fail. Dany will execute her. I feel Arya has to die because she's become the hero of the story and she's probably the one character whose death no one is expecting.
- Jon will lose it with Arya's death; she was always his favorite of the Starks. He will kill Dany, then refuse the throne.
- With no Targaryean heir, Gendry Baratheon, now the lawful heir of Robert, will take the throne.
- Sansa will die. Not sure how or by whose hand, but I think she dies. That's why in the pre-season trailer, Jon's statue was of an old man while Sansa & Arya still looked young.
I saw a really good explanation for the problems with writing. It is not competent vs. incompetent writers. It is a clash of styles.
They referred to it as plotters vs. panthers. I like to think of it as "intelligent design" vs. "free will". Plotters design the entire story from day 1. Every major scene and event carved out, and everything then designed around that. For plotters it is an intelligent design to get to an end point. Characters serve as plot pieces, designed to get from point A to point B. Apparently, D&D are epic plotters.
Pantsers fly by the seat of their pants. There is no major designed story. There are designed characters, where the story is crafted from their decisions (Free Will). The plot spirals and grows as a consequence of their decisions, leading to a totally organic world, revolving around the characters. GRRM is know as a "Pantser" and has said his story design leads to more difficult and long conclusions. He is known to say that it would take 5 more seasons to properly finish the story.
The first 4 seasons stayed true to GRRM's "Free Will" world, as he had a significant hand in story telling. When he left D&D, had control, and switched to an "intelligent design" type of writing. They had their ending. Their current time point, and set a limited number of episodes to connect the dots with major scenes to make sure it was consistent.
The characters then were no longer operating based on their character, but rather plot points to get from A to B. Organic timelines were gone, to favor getting pieces in position with the scene/episode timeline. All was necessary to wrap it up on time.
The article made a good point. Neither approach is wrong for story telling. Both are very successful approaches. They are just different in construction, and when the show switches mid-stream between the two, it is glaringly obvious that characters and timelines are no longer operating the same and it comes across as awkward and inconsistent with the original world.
Wait. They cut 100s of pages from the stand? Holy crap it was bible thick already
the original release was probably 800 pages less than the re-issue years later
the original release was probably 800 pages less than the re-issue years later
I don't disagree with what you say, but you also need to recognize that books and tV shows are two entirely different mediums.
The author can write in great, great detail without any limitation (except for maybe an editor who will cut hundreds of pages as happened to Stephen King when he wrote The Stand). He can go into backgrounds of every character even if they are not major players. He can go into the long history of different nations. He has no restraints.
The TV writer is bound by numerous restraints, however. Time, being the main one. He has to write "across time" so that sometimes the timelines don't match up real well. He cannot go into the same detail. The watcher has to make certain assumptions whereas the reader does not.
If Dany's descent into madness were in the next book, the author could detail it over an extended period of time. The tV show doesn't have the same luxury. Instead, we have to look back at her history in earlier years and what her basic impulses are. We need to look back at family history where her brother goes from a gentle loving person to a monster. It's all there on the tV show - you just don't get as much detail.
Thought this was an interesting take on Dany going mad.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/game-of-thrones-daenerys-the-bells-analysis.amp
This gets at a lot of thoughts I've had about Dany's character for a while now. I never understood why she was so universally beloved. I never bought into her schtick. Always struck me as a trust fund kid who's family has fallen on tough times and is simply demanding to get back to the lifestyle she feels is owed to her.
This gets at a lot of thoughts I've had about Dany's character for a while now. I never understood why she was so universally beloved. I never bought into her schtick. Always struck me as a trust fund kid who's family has fallen on tough times and is simply demanding to get back to the lifestyle she feels is owed to her.
Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does. She is just, and cares for the common person.
Well until last week.
Just to confirm. You haven't read the books, right?
Dany never had anything. She was born in a storm. Her mother died. She was orphaned and rushed off. Her only happy memories were a modest house with a red door in Braavos. She spent her entire life, largely bankrupt and living off the good will of others as she ran from people trying to kill her.
Her dream was to go home (to the modest house with a red door). '
Her ideas changed when Jorah informed her that the people were not waiting for her brother. That they did not care about who won the game of thrones, that all they wanted was to be left alone. She viewed all of Westeros as having the red doors, symbolically it was the moment she wanted to protect the common people, from bad/dangerous rulers like her brother.
Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does. She is just, and cares for the common person.
Well until last week.
I have read them. I still feel the same way.
I have never bought that she cared for the common person. I think it is more accurate to say that she hates those in power....because she feels like she should be the one in power.
Who has actually cared for the commoner? Other than Varys, the closest one I can think of is Margaery, but you can argue that was disingenuous and served her ultimate goal of being Queen, at worst.
I'd add John, Tyrion, and Eddard to the list. I agree that Margaery's care for the common folk was disingenuous though I would still say more genuine than Dany's.
Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does. She is just, and cares for the common person.
Well until last week.
Was incinerating the Tarleys just?
Yes. Enemy general who turned traitor on his sworn liege (House Tyrell) to take up arms against the rightful surviving heir to the Iron Throne. His son refused to leave his father's side, so his execution is on the same grounds. (That would be Dany's perspective, but definitely just)
The clincher for me that Dany's turn was lazy was in rewatching it, specifically the "Previously on" scene before the opening credits. They spent a lot of time playing background quotes about Targaryens going mad behind Dany. They were trying to convince the audience this was always obvious. Even worse, some of those quotes weren't from past episodes, but from the episode that was about to air!
"We haven't really sold this 'Mad Queen' concept yet, so let's try to jam it into the 60-second episode preview. Hope everyone watches that!"
When Varys talked about the coin flip in the first scene with Jon and you hear him say a quote that was used multiple times in the intro just a couple minutes before, it really feels hacky. I didn't notice it the first time, but it stuck out like a sore thumb the second.
Disagree. Execution wasn't necessary nor just.
Yes, but this quote has been around multiple times since Barristen Selmy first said it in Season 2.
I think you guys are really getting way too worked up about the Dany going mad... there was way more foreshadowing that it would happen than we needed. Plus she lost her closest friends, allies, and 2 dragons in a short span of time. Plus Emilia Clarke did a great job of acting during the fireside talk with Jon in the last episode of taking the path of love or fear... and because Jon rejected her love, she chose fear then and there.
Anyway, I'm surprised by how much backlash this has gotten because the whole "long night" and Night King / Bran thing to me was far more rushed and hacked into hardly anything.
Anyway, I'm surprised by how much backlash this has gotten because the whole "long night" and Night King / Bran thing to me was far more rushed and hacked into hardly anything.
From Dany's perspective it was both. He wouldn't bend the knee to his lawful queen. He wouldn't take the black. He was a traitor. What other punishment should she have rendered?
The Tarlys made their choice. Both of them. There was no alternative at that point.
I wanted more explanation, but that was always going to come down to one last battle & one last strike from Arya. The Night King has been marching for 5 seasons now. He first appeared in S4, attacked Hardhome in S5, killed the Three Eyed Raven in S6, marches toward Eastwatch, battles Jon's companions, and breaches the Wall in S7, then massacres Last Hearth all before the final battle in S8.
The Night King has been marching, killing, & building his army for a long time. Dany's madness was a switch flip, IMO.
I think the general practice in both Westeros and the real world is that you don't execute prisoners of war who have surrendered.
I mean, Dany crucified people. Literally crucified hundreds of people. I think anyone capable of ordering that has a touch of madness.
The clincher for me that Dany's turn was lazy was in rewatching it, specifically the "Previously on" scene before the opening credits. They spent a lot of time playing background quotes about Targaryens going mad behind Dany. They were trying to convince the audience this was always obvious. Even worse, some of those quotes weren't from past episodes, but from the episode that was about to air!
"We haven't really sold this 'Mad Queen' concept yet, so let's try to jam it into the 60-second episode preview. Hope everyone watches that!"
The punishment for treason or oath breaking in Westeros is death. It was allowed for people to take the black instead, but the Night's Watch no longer existed.
Dany followed the law. She did exactly as a lord is supposed to do.
Not to mention, the Tarly's, and others may have surrendered, but they refused to acknowledge her as their queen, which is treason. If she executed them after they pledged their loyalty to her, then you could claim madness. But she didn't do that.
I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.
Right. If it were such a foregone, accepted conclusion, Tyrion wouldn't have advised her against it. And Jon and Sam wouldn't have reacted to it as they did.
One could say she was within her rights to execute them for failing to bend the knee, but the fact she went against her Hand and chose not to show mercy when it likely would have been in her best interests certainly shows she had a cruel - or at least vengeful - streak in her.
For comparison's sake, everyone was aghast when Joffrey had prisoner Ned executed, and he was (justifiably) portrayed as a monster, although death is the punishment for treason in Westeros.
I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.
They were traitors when they betrayed House Tyrell.
So if they bent the knee to her she would have still executed them for being traitors? Not buying it. She executed them because they refused to bend the knee.
It isn't treason alone. That was the whole surprise of the episode, everybody set it up so Ned could take the black after admitting treason (which he did) then Joffrey was supposed to say go north but he didn't.
They were traitors. They didn't atone for their treason by bending the knee. This is pretty straight forward. Outside taking the black, which Randall Tarly also refused, there was no other appropriate sentence.
As I asked earlier, what other punishment should she have rendered?
It isn't treason alone. That was the whole surprise of the episode, everybody set it up so Ned could take the black after admitting treason (which he did) then Joffrey was supposed to say go north but he didn't.
Perhaps I'm not expressing my point clearly enough.
Ultimately, Ned and the Tarlys were executed for treason, a crime for which they both essentially confessed. This, you say, is the accepted and just punishment for that crime in Westeros.
Regardless of whether Joffrey could have/should have/or did agree to let Ned join the Nightswatch, don't you agree that he was well within his rights to have Ned's head lopped off and doing so was not villainy, but rather justice? - as you do for Dany for carrying out the same punishment for the same crime on the Tarlys?
Perhaps I'm not expressing my point clearly enough.
Ultimately, Ned and the Tarlys were executed for treason, a crime for which they both essentially confessed. This, you say, is the accepted and just punishment for that crime in Westeros.
Regardless of whether Joffrey could have/should have/or did agree to let Ned join the Nightswatch, don't you agree that he was well within his rights to have Ned's head lopped off and doing so was not villainy, but rather justice? - as you do for Dany for carrying out the same punishment for the same crime on the Tarlys?
I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.
Are you trying to apply real-world norms to Westeros norms
Because in Westeros, it is definitely treason. The Tarly's were not the least bit surprised by their sentence, they expected it.
Again, I don't buy for a second that Dany would have still burned them alive if they had bent the knee. Ergo, the reason for the burning was refusal to bend the knee, not treason.
They were enemy combatants who had surrendered. The most just thing to do is to imprison them and treat them as prisoners of war.
You can forgive Dany for that if you want. To me, it was another moment in a long list of moments that hinted that she was another tyrant in the making. I forgave her a lot in the beginning, but right around the time she started crucifying hundreds of people I realized which side of the coin had landed face up.
If everyone that didn't bend the knee was going to be summarily executed, Jon would've been a snack for Drogon 5 minutes after landing at Dragonstone.
There is a fundamental difference between exacting punishments on those you perceive as criminals, like the Tarlys, the Masters of Mereen, or Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and massacring (conservatively) tens of thousands of innocents.
Dany brutally murdered and tortured her way to power across the narrow sea. It only made sense that she would continue and escalate that trend once she got to Westeros.
For 7-1/2 years, she was the one who would break the wheel. The breaker of chains. The freer of slaves. Everything she did was painted to benefit the common folk, then in an instant they flip it.
First of all, Euron does not shoot Rhaegal down in “The Last of the Starks.” He still wipes out Dany’s fleet and captures Missandei, and Missandei still gets executed atop the wall of King’s Landing in front of Dany and Grey Worm and Tyrion. (Since all of the characters’ battle plans and movements have been driven by narrative need rather than strategic goals this season, the show could have had Dany and Jon flying the dragons somewhere else at the moment of Euron’s ambush, to make an opening for him to wipe out her fleet and capture Missandei without the dragons roasting his boats.) Dany is still hollowed-out and pushed to the edge by the loss of Missandei and the final breakdown of her trust in the people around her, but she enters the battle of King’s Landing with two dragons, and with Jon riding Rhaegal.
This avoids the silly, temporary attribute buffs both Euron and the Big Crossbows needed in order to make Rhaegal’s death happen the way it did. This way, when Dany attacks King’s Landing and makes quick, short work of all the dozens and dozens of Big Crossbows along the outer walls of the city, it makes better sense: We saw a Big Crossbow wound Drogon, so we know they’re dangerous, but we never saw Big Crossbows make a frickin’ pincushion out of a flying, moving dragon a mile away, with shots fired from the rolling deck of a moving boat, so there’s no reason to think they’re capable of doing anything like that, which is good, since that ought to be completely impossible even with weapons much cooler and more sophisticated than Big Crossbows.
So, Dany’s got two dragons; her on one, and Jon on the other. And just like in “The Bells,” she trashes the Golden Company and the Iron Fleet; she and Jon circle King’s Landing, wiping out the wall-mounted Big Crossbows, and she blasts a huge hole in the wall of city for her army to pour through. It becomes shockingly apparent, right away, that for all of Cersei’s small-time victories in the lead-up to this final battle, there’s still nothing to match two full-grown dragons and she cannot possibly hold the capital.
The people of King’s Landing surrender, just like they did in “The Bells,” by ringing, uh, the bells. The Lannister soldiers drop their swords. Dany and Jon perch Drogon and Rhaegal on high points and look toward the Red Keep. Maybe they share a weary but guardedly affectionate glance. And then Euron skewers a stationary Rhaegal through the unnatural carnal knowledgein’ eyeball* with a Big Crossbow heretofore hidden on one of the rooftops of King’s Landing!!!!
*In his writing, George R. R. Martin has made clear that the only previous time in the history of this fictional world that a weapon that wasn’t a dragon itself has ever killed a dragon was when a Dornishman landed a million-to-one shot from a Big Crossbow straight through the eye of a dragon, one of the only places where it was not protected by scales as hard as steel. In fact no subsequent attempts to kill dragons with Big Crossbows ever yielded so much as a serious wound. So this would be both a good nod to the written text and a plausible way for Euron to kill a dragon.
Dany can only watch in brain-melting shock and grief as one of her two remaining children—the loves of her life, the sources of her identity—whom she’d nurtured back from the brink after the Battle of Winterfell, topples to the streets dead as hell, killed pointlessly and vindictively at what should have been the end of a battle she’d already won. His fall takes down and (as far as she can tell) kills the doofus she still kinda loves and relates to, the one dude in all of Westeros who still unquestioningly supported her claim to the throne. And—oh crap, there are still big arrows flying at her, from an untold number of Big Crossbows still out there on the rooftops of King’s Landing, camouflaged on the rooftops of civilian buildings; she can’t even really tell where the big arrows are coming from!
It’s where a wiser leader, one more suited to the awesome power she’s spent her life working to claim for herself, might withdraw, marshal her resources, and commit to some combination of a siege and a house-by-house clearing of the city by her infantry. But in her rage and pain and sorrow, and painfully out of reach of all the advisors who’ve helped her rein herself in over the years, Dany reacts—not making a conscious, deliberate decision to do genocide to innocent people, but lashing out as a wounded dragon, as the thing she always has had inside of her, at both the Big Crossbows and at the entire society that has taken so much from her—and just unnatural carnal knowledgein’ lays waste to King’s Landing.
Pushed beyond her breaking point and separated from the people who care about her, in the moment, Daenerys Targaryen fully becomes, finally and for all time, the Mother of Dragons—and in so doing not only categorically disqualifies herself from ever being accepted or loved as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, but also forsakes her humanity and destroys her own soul. From there, “The Bells” plays out the way it did—only this way, it’s tragic! It reaches back farther than just the previous handful of episodes to fulfill and resonate with what’s been happening to Dany over the course of the whole run of the show! It changes what came across last night as a frankly evil and inexplicable conscious choice (Now I shall melt thousands and thousands of frightened children) into an uncontrollable firestorm of grief and fury! It leads to all the same breathtaking carnage “The Bells” delivered last night! Frankly, it rules!
I liked this alternative path for Dany's descent laid out by Albert Burneko.
https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-better-way-game-of-thrones-could-have-arrived-at-this-1834720538
https://entertainment.theonion.com/game-of-thrones-showrunners-disappointed-with-how-qua-1834843021 (https://entertainment.theonion.com/game-of-thrones-showrunners-disappointed-with-how-qua-1834843021)
Watching the actors interviews on this season is hilarious. Essentially they think this season was not good.
Have you actually watched the interviews, or just the YouTube mash up making rounds that takes sound bites out of context?
Watching the actors interviews on this season is hilarious. Essentially they think this season was not good.
I think the general practice in both Westeros and the real world is that you don't execute prisoners of war who have surrendered.
I mean, Dany crucified people. Literally crucified hundreds of people. I think anyone capable of ordering that has a touch of madness.
I find it interesting that all the Targaryens in the show are blonde, except Jon. I guess the mad gene that runs through the Targaryens is due to their inbreeding as Jon seems quite the opposite of all other Targaryens whose mother was a Stark. I will be greatly disappointed if Dany does not wind up being the mad queen of Westeros as the Game never seems to end. However, I don't feel that is how the show will end.
Tied up with a bow. Neat, orderly. A win for the Starks.
Didn't much care for it. Jon's ending was cute with Tormund being there.
Finally Ghost gets love
Wouldn’t surprise me if that Jon Snow/Ghost reunion was filmed in the last week after all the back lash.
From a Bears fan friend:
I feel the exact same way I did after the double doink
I’m done with this show, this episode just ended it for me.
Questions on the finale.
Why did the unsullied and Dothraki let Jon and Tyrion live for what appears to be months, before the lords and ladies of Westeros arrive? They killed their leader, so they just wait for the allies to show up? They would have executed both of them within minutes of realizing what happened.
Related. How did they know Jon killed Dany? Drogon ran off with the body.
Why did the other leaders just agree to let the North be its own kingdom? The Greyjoys and Dorne were fine with it, and didn't want independent Kingdoms for themselves? Yara goes from wanting Jon's head, because he killed Dany, to being ok following a Stark and letting the Starks have an independent Kingdom?
No one wants Jon to go to the Wall. But they can't just let him go wherever? The Unsullied and Dothraki left Westeros, why would Jon have to do anything?
The other big head-scratcher. Bran has repeatedly said, he doesn't want anything. He doesn't want any titles, nothing to do with the present or future. Then he says in this episode, he made the entire journey to be King. So everything he did was done to be King of the Seven Kingdoms? The only way to take that, is that Bran was the ultimate evil. Orchestrating all of this so that he could be King. After all, he and the other 3-eyed raven were the ones meddling with everything.
Well it was the series finale.
My thoughts...blah. That could not have felt more anticlimactic. Everyone morose after the battle, Jon kills Dany, reform the kingdom, world returned to status quo. Few deaths, little excitement, no shadow of a future threat. Was hoping for some flash of blue eyes, or rumors of a threat from the East, or Drogon menacingly riding on the air, but instead, nothing. I feel like that episode was just something that happened. No emotion, no excitement, just "here you go, that's the end of the show, lock the door on your way out."
My guesses:
I think it was maybe a week or two, not months. I'd guess Jon surrendered and confessed. Grey Worm is smart enough to know that without Drogon, Jon & Tyrion were his only real bargaining chips.
I think because the North is huge & everyone was done with war. Besides, 6+1 kingdoms ruled by Starks isn't that different from 7 kingdoms ruled by a Stark.
Jon is noble. He might not have to follow that dictate, but he's a man of his word.
I think Bran made the journey not because he wanted the crown but because he knew he had to take it. He likely didn't see another successor that would satisfy everyone & knew Tyrion would consider him. I didn't see that as evil at all. I think Bran is truly removed from such mortal constructs as good and evil.
My thoughts...blah. That could not have felt more anticlimactic. Everyone morose after the battle, Jon kills Dany, reform the kingdom, world returned to status quo. Few deaths, little excitement, no shadow of a future threat. Was hoping for some flash of blue eyes, or rumors of a threat from the East, or Drogon menacingly riding on the air, but instead, nothing. I feel like that episode was just something that happened. No emotion, no excitement, just "here you go, that's the end of the show, lock the door on your way out."
No one wants Jon to go to the Wall. But they can't just let him go wherever? The Unsullied and Dothraki left Westeros, why would Jon have to do anything?
The melting of the Iron Throne was corny and overwrought metaphor. The democracy proposition and joke laughter was dumb. Everything just turning into a cute happy ending for basically everyone was so anti-GoT.
Lame ending to a lame season.
Shows' final seasons are often not as good, this is true. But this was a dramatic decline. It went from an A+ series in seasons 1-7 to a D- final season.
I'm not just trolling. I was a huge, huge fan of this series, and it did so many things so well for so long. That made this season all the more frustrating. Anyone who has paid even a small amount of attention to this series knows it is true.
They clearly got sloppy...Starbucks cups, water bottles, etc. The Double D's just phoned in this season.
Honestly, season 7 was not nearly as good as people remember it being. Especially in retrospect. Definitely, had its moments but I think that was the first step of the dramatic decline
Lots of great shows (GoT, The Wire) struggled to wrap things up with a good final season. I had my issues with Breaking Bad's ending at the time but I've grown to appreciate how cleanly it wrapped up.
IMO Breaking Bad ended perfectly
Still better than the final season of The Wire
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/20/18632110/just-how-much-of-the-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martinsI've never read any books. That being said, after reading this, I'm more convinced that GRRM will never get to the end of his books. So much left to write and tell.
Like most people I thought the episode started well and then devolved badly. So we're letting a prisoner who was there for sentencing lead the discussion on how the next king is to be selected? We go from shut up you're not here to talk to him talking endlessly in about a minute? He hasn't made a good decision in about 3 seasons which should be apparent to everyone one involved. Worst part is that he talks everyone into having as the new king someone who has literally done nothing to make anyone think he could be a good king. Can he lead? Can he administer? Can he inspire? Can he plan? Can he freaking talk to other people or make any decision of any kind? Nobody knows. The only argument against him is that he can't have children? It is akin to making a very knowledgeable historian king. Though repeatedly denying he wants anything he happily accepts the job like he has wanted it all along but even the one scene they show after he is king leads you to believe he has no interest in being king.
Sounds like Socrates' "Philosopher King." The philosopher king is a lover of wisdom and therefore the best ruler. Isn't that who Bran is?Bran has knowledge, not necessarily wisdom, at least from the perspective of those in attendance of the meeting.
https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/20/18632110/just-how-much-of-the-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martins
The claim that Bran becoming king is "so wildly out of left field" is hilarious, given that Bran becoming king was the overwhelming preseason favorite at Bovada for those who chose to bet on such things.I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself. I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.
I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself. I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.
I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself. I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.
I'm with you here. Bran's odds were heavily based on him "having the most outs," to use a poker analogy. Going into this season, there were reasonable guesses that he would be anything from the Night King himself, to a fully developed, actualized three eyed raven, and probably a bunch of other outcomes. If the ending were based on the fantasy elements of the story, he was the clearest option.
Instead, those fantasy elements were largely brushed aside for the more practical, battle-oriented Stark-centric hero stories, and Bran sort of spent most of the season just speaking in half sentences and staring off on the distance. This all culminated with a scene in the finale that could have been filmed with six alternate endings where Tyrion goes "ummmm, BRAN!" So in the sense that we're left with no development of this character beyond his mysterious warg/three eyed raven schtick, which wasn't explored at all, it was a pretty random outcome and ran contrary to the plot development of the entire season.
I've never read a page of the books and didn't feel the choice was at all out of left field.
So, just to be clear. You loved everything, you saw everything coming, nothing was a surprise.
Got it.
Show your winning ticket from Bovada.
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
What I didn't see is season 8 turning Hards_Alumni into the Mad Scooper. #BigMad
GRRM's interview where he talks about how you can't build a series where the foreshadowing builds to the Butler did it then at the last minute change to the handmaiden did it was fairly telling to me. Seemed to imply he was unhappy with the subversion for subversion sake
Except the showrunners were working off the framework of an ending provided to them by Martin. Unless you believe Martin told them how the books would end, and then went out and filmed something entirely different?
I agree completely with critics who say the season seemed rushed and would have been much better over 10 episodes.*
But those who complain that the show somehow created a conclusion inconsistent with the narrative of the books seem to be forgetting that this is the conclusion laid out to them - in broad strokes, at least - by Martin and, IMO, thematically consistent with the earlier seasons.
* As a side note, a TV/entertainment writer who's also a friend is of the opinion that the last two seasons will be far better received 5-10 years from now, especially by those who missed out on the show's initial run and binge watch later. They'll view the series without the long gaps between seasons, the massive buildup and hype that was impossible to match, the endless theories of what would and should happen (and people getting mad when their ideas weren't brought to life on the screen), and the hundreds of online hot takes breathless posted after every episode.
I agree.
Except the showrunners were working off the framework of an ending provided to them by Martin. Unless you believe Martin told them how the books would end, and then went out and filmed something entirely different?
I agree completely with critics who say the season seemed rushed and would have been much better over 10 episodes.*
But those who complain that the show somehow created a conclusion inconsistent with the narrative of the books seem to be forgetting that this is the conclusion laid out to them - in broad strokes, at least - by Martin and, IMO, thematically consistent with the earlier seasons.
* As a side note, a TV/entertainment writer who's also a friend is of the opinion that the last two seasons will be far better received 5-10 years from now, especially by those who missed out on the show's initial run and binge watch later. They'll view the series without the long gaps between seasons, the massive buildup and hype that was impossible to match, the endless theories of what would and should happen (and people getting mad when their ideas weren't brought to life on the screen), and the hundreds of online hot takes breathless posted after every episode.
I agree.
Well he's quoted as saying the ending will be different but the same but different. There's characters who are dead in the show who are alive in the books, and characters they didn't include.
My team Young Griff people know what I'm talking about.
Essentially Dumb and Dumber created a world where I highly doubt the ending matches it.
No one said it would be the exact same ending. I said Martin provided a framework for the ending he envisioned, and there's nothing to indicate - most notably Martin's own words - the showrunners veered drastically away from that.
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
What I didn't see is season 8 turning Hards_Alumni into the Mad Scooper. #BigMad
No one said it would be the exact same ending. I said Martin provided a framework for the ending he envisioned, and there's nothing to indicate - most notably Martin's own words - the showrunners veered drastically away from that.
GRRM shared the themes and emphases. Not the ending.
From the horse's mouth:
Q: So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …
A: Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/
I've never read a page of the books and didn't feel the choice was at all out of left field.
Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.
Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.
1a. Bran told everyone he didn't want anything anymore. Not Lord of Winterfell, or any other titles. This was a lie.
1b. Bran admitted he made the whole journey, because he knew he would be King after it was all said and done.
2. He knew the past and the future.
3. He knew Dany would destroy Kings landing (he had the vision of Dragon flying over KL).
4. He would have known that Dany destroyed Kings landing in part because of finding out about Jon's parentage.
5. He would have known that Jon would kill Dany because of it (he had to know this if he knew he would be King)
6. He insisted on Jon finding out anyway. He didn't do anything to stop Rhaegal from getting shot down and Missandei kidnapped. He set everything in motion.
So he knew about him becoming King and how, he actively set the pieces in motion to get it to happen, leading to the deaths of millions of people.
Bran is the ultimate villain in this show. The 3-eyed raven is evil. That is the only rational conclusion based on everything that transpired.
OOOORRRR this is the best outcome for westoros. Maybe bran does stop something and instead of Dany destroying kings landing she ends up torching all of westoros. Or maybe he doesn't say something about Jon and the north goes to war with Dany over the iron throne.
You make a lot of assumptions this wasn't the best outcome out of all possibilities.
Just cause Bran doesn’t want it doesn’t mean he won’t take the crown for the betterment of the kingdom
So you are agreeing with me? Your quotes say exactly what I said.
Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.
1a. Bran told everyone he didn't want anything anymore. Not Lord of Winterfell, or any other titles. This was a lie.
1b. Bran admitted he made the whole journey, because he knew he would be King after it was all said and done.
2. He knew the past and the future.
3. He knew Dany would destroy Kings landing (he had the vision of Dragon flying over KL).
4. He would have known that Dany destroyed Kings landing in part because of finding out about Jon's parentage.
5. He would have known that Jon would kill Dany because of it (he had to know this if he knew he would be King)
6. He insisted on Jon finding out anyway. He didn't do anything to stop Rhaegal from getting shot down and Missandei kidnapped. He set everything in motion.
So he knew about him becoming King and how, he actively set the pieces in motion to get it to happen, leading to the deaths of millions of people.
Bran is the ultimate villain in this show. The 3-eyed raven is evil. That is the only rational conclusion based on everything that transpired.
There is a difference between taking it for the betterment of the Kingdom, and taking actions that facilitate gaining the crown that lead to the death of close to 1M innocent civilians.
But again, if you have a problem with the ending, take it up with George. It's his.
What actions did Bran take?
Regardless it indicates that Bran is responsible for close to 1M deaths, that were part of him becoming King.
From a pure Kant categorical imperative perspective. Bran and Dany are either equally morally corrupt, or equally morally justified. Both caused the death of ~1M people.
Similarly, if Jon killing Dany was morally just, than it would have been morally just for the Night King to kill Bran.
So if Bran can see the future, which really isn't confirmed, is allowing the one million people to die in King's Landing the right choice if that ultimately saves more lives in the long run?