Game of Thrones fans here?

[Coleman]

Lots of great shows (GoT, The Wire) struggled to wrap things up with a good final season. I had my issues with Breaking Bad's ending at the time but I've grown to appreciate how cleanly it wrapped up.

IMO Breaking Bad ended perfectly

[BM1090]

IMO Breaking Bad ended perfectly

My issue at the time was less with Felina and more with Granite State where Walt miraculously finds car keys to get himself out of the area after he called the police on himself. Felina was a great final episode.

[jesmu84]

Post-book adaptation struggles + writers/actors/show runners wanting to move on led to the Cliff's notes of what Martin is going to write (while emphasizing on the battles/action) = season 7 and 8.

If those seasons were 10 episode each, I think everyone is much happier.

Alas.

Also, I loved that last night wasn't about the spectacle/action but was about character dialogue/interactions, which is always what liked most about GOT

[MU82]

Still better than the final season of The Wire

This is a superb and important point (if any point about a TV show can be "important").

There are many, many people -- including experienced television critics -- who think The Wire is the best show in television history. And yet its 5th season -- 20% of its run -- was at best OK. At best.

I agree that the final season of GoT was better than the final season of The Wire, a show I really liked. I do still consider Season 4 of The Wire as good a season as any television show has ever had. Maybe I could be convinced that something was as good, but I don't think anybody could convince me that there was anything better.

[jesmu84]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/20/18632110/just-how-much-of-the-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martins

[CreightonWarrior]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/20/18632110/just-how-much-of-the-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martins

I've never read any books. That being said, after reading this, I'm more convinced that GRRM will never get to the end of his books. So much left to write and tell.

[SaveOD238]

Like most people I thought the episode started well and then devolved badly.  So we're letting a prisoner who was there for sentencing lead the discussion on how the next king is to be selected?  We go from shut up you're not here to talk to him talking endlessly in about a minute?  He hasn't made a good decision in about 3 seasons which should be apparent to everyone one involved.  Worst part is that he talks everyone into having as the new king someone who has literally done nothing to make anyone think he could be a good king.  Can he lead?  Can he administer?  Can he inspire? Can he plan?  Can he freaking talk to other people or make any decision of any kind?  Nobody knows.  The only argument against him is that he can't have children?  It is akin to making a very knowledgeable historian king.  Though repeatedly denying he wants anything he happily accepts the job like he has wanted it all along but even the one scene they show after he is king leads you to believe he has no interest in being king.

Sounds like Socrates' "Philosopher King."  The philosopher king is a lover of wisdom and therefore the best ruler.  Isn't that who Bran is?

[CTWarrior]

Sounds like Socrates' "Philosopher King."  The philosopher king is a lover of wisdom and therefore the best ruler.  Isn't that who Bran is?

Bran has knowledge, not necessarily wisdom, at least from the perspective of those in attendance of the meeting.

[Pakuni]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/20/18632110/just-how-much-of-the-game-of-thrones-ending-was-george-r-r-martins

The claim that Bran becoming king is "so wildly out of left field" is hilarious, given that Bran becoming king was the overwhelming preseason favorite at Bovada for those who chose to bet on such things.

[CTWarrior]

The claim that Bran becoming king is "so wildly out of left field" is hilarious, given that Bran becoming king was the overwhelming preseason favorite at Bovada for those who chose to bet on such things.

I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself.  I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.

[MUBurrow]

I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself.  I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.

I'm with you here. Bran's odds were heavily based on him "having the most outs," to use a poker analogy.  Going into this season, there were reasonable guesses that he would be anything from the Night King himself, to a fully developed, actualized three eyed raven, and probably a bunch of other outcomes.  If the ending were based on the fantasy elements of the story, he was the clearest option.

Instead, those fantasy elements were largely brushed aside for the more practical, battle-oriented Stark-centric hero stories, and Bran sort of spent most of the season just speaking in half sentences and staring off on the distance.  This all culminated with a scene in the finale that could have been filmed with six alternate endings where Tyrion goes "ummmm, BRAN!" So in the sense that we're left with no development of this character beyond his mysterious warg/three eyed raven schtick, which wasn't explored at all, it was a pretty random outcome and ran contrary to the plot development of the entire season.

[Pakuni]

I think it was "wildly out of left field" if all you had to go on was the show itself.  I imagine those odds were more based on the book and possibly people who actually knew the outcome.

I've never read a page of the books and didn't feel the choice was at all out of left field.

[Coleman]

I'm with you here. Bran's odds were heavily based on him "having the most outs," to use a poker analogy.  Going into this season, there were reasonable guesses that he would be anything from the Night King himself, to a fully developed, actualized three eyed raven, and probably a bunch of other outcomes.  If the ending were based on the fantasy elements of the story, he was the clearest option.

Instead, those fantasy elements were largely brushed aside for the more practical, battle-oriented Stark-centric hero stories, and Bran sort of spent most of the season just speaking in half sentences and staring off on the distance.  This all culminated with a scene in the finale that could have been filmed with six alternate endings where Tyrion goes "ummmm, BRAN!" So in the sense that we're left with no development of this character beyond his mysterious warg/three eyed raven schtick, which wasn't explored at all, it was a pretty random outcome and ran contrary to the plot development of the entire season.

This is the answer.

Bran isn't out of left field, it was hinted at through all seasons 1-6.

The beef is that D&D did ZERO character developnment the final two seasons. It is not a bad ending, but it was a really bad job during the final two seasons of getting us there.

[Hards Alumni]

I've never read a page of the books and didn't feel the choice was at all out of left field.

So, just to be clear.  You loved everything, you saw everything coming, nothing was a surprise.

Got it.

Show your winning ticket from Bovada.

[Pakuni]

So, just to be clear.  You loved everything, you saw everything coming, nothing was a surprise.

Got it.

Show your winning ticket from Bovada.

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
What I didn't see is season 8 turning Hards_Alumni into the Mad Scooper. #BigMad

[Galway Eagle]

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
What I didn't see is season 8 turning Hards_Alumni into the Mad Scooper. #BigMad

I'll volunteer to be greyscoop/scoopworm then. They did a poor job. Last season should've been 10 episodes and so should this. If they tied up the NK last season I'd be disappointed but it would've been given fair buildup and tension. Maybe a cliffhanger the same way Jon died. Then this season should've been 10. Defeat NK, aftermath, planning, tension of lineage, etc etc all could've been given fair development. I highly doubt in the initial storyboard they put the NK and battle for the throne in the same season.

[Galway Eagle]

GRRM's interview where he talks about how you can't build a series where the foreshadowing builds to the Butler did it then at the last minute change to the handmaiden did it was fairly telling to me. Seemed to imply he was unhappy with the subversion for subversion sake

[Galway Eagle]

If I were to rewrite the show I'd have the battle for the throne first then Danny goes mad doesn't help against the WW and Jon has to kill her for the realm while revealing his heritage to claim the throne. It covers the madness, the bitter killing of loved one, the begrudging accepting of the throne, and gives attention to what should actually be the realistic threat to the realm. It also covers the "it doesn't matter who sits on the throne"

[Pakuni]

GRRM's interview where he talks about how you can't build a series where the foreshadowing builds to the Butler did it then at the last minute change to the handmaiden did it was fairly telling to me. Seemed to imply he was unhappy with the subversion for subversion sake

Except the showrunners were working off the framework of an ending provided to them by Martin. Unless you believe Martin told them how the books would end, and then went out and filmed something entirely different?

I agree completely with critics who say the season seemed rushed and would have been much better over 10 episodes.*
But those who complain that the show somehow created a conclusion inconsistent with the narrative of the books seem to be forgetting that this is the conclusion laid out to them - in broad strokes, at least - by Martin and, IMO, thematically consistent with the earlier seasons.

* As a side note, a TV/entertainment writer who's also a friend is of the opinion that the last two seasons will be far better received 5-10 years from now, especially by those who missed out on the show's initial run and binge watch later. They'll view the series without the long gaps between seasons, the massive buildup and hype that was impossible to match, the endless theories of what would and should happen (and people getting mad when their ideas weren't brought to life on the screen), and the hundreds of online hot takes breathless posted after every episode.
I agree.

[MU82]

Except the showrunners were working off the framework of an ending provided to them by Martin. Unless you believe Martin told them how the books would end, and then went out and filmed something entirely different?

I agree completely with critics who say the season seemed rushed and would have been much better over 10 episodes.*
But those who complain that the show somehow created a conclusion inconsistent with the narrative of the books seem to be forgetting that this is the conclusion laid out to them - in broad strokes, at least - by Martin and, IMO, thematically consistent with the earlier seasons.

* As a side note, a TV/entertainment writer who's also a friend is of the opinion that the last two seasons will be far better received 5-10 years from now, especially by those who missed out on the show's initial run and binge watch later. They'll view the series without the long gaps between seasons, the massive buildup and hype that was impossible to match, the endless theories of what would and should happen (and people getting mad when their ideas weren't brought to life on the screen), and the hundreds of online hot takes breathless posted after every episode.
I agree.

Your asterisked point applies somewhat to me and totally to my wife.

I saw the entire series in real time, but when my wife said she wanted to watch it too, we watched the first 7 seasons, at a relaxed but steady pace, from October through March. I loved watching it again, as I picked up on so much I had missed the first time, and the pace -- seeing 2-3 episodes in a week, sometimes more -- really helped.

As I've said, I thought this season wasn't as good as previous, but I also know that's not unusual, and I still was entertained. I thought episodes 2 and 5 were about as good as any from previous seasons. And my wife liked the show very much.

I mean, MASH is remembered as one of the greatest shows ever, but it only was great the first 3 years, and it became borderline unwatchable IMHO after Frank Burns left. All in the Family was one of the top 3 comedies of all time ... until Mike and Gloria left. Then it became bad. Then Edith died and it was awful. Sopranos, The Wire, NYPD Blue, etc, etc, ... they all had bad seasons.

I know that the big, big, big, big GOT fans just are bummed because they had become so used to excellence, and I don't blame them. But that doesn't mean others can't still enjoy the show.

I agree, Pakuni, that those who binge watch GOT a few years from now will really like it. Even Season 8.

[Galway Eagle]

Except the showrunners were working off the framework of an ending provided to them by Martin. Unless you believe Martin told them how the books would end, and then went out and filmed something entirely different?

I agree completely with critics who say the season seemed rushed and would have been much better over 10 episodes.*
But those who complain that the show somehow created a conclusion inconsistent with the narrative of the books seem to be forgetting that this is the conclusion laid out to them - in broad strokes, at least - by Martin and, IMO, thematically consistent with the earlier seasons.

* As a side note, a TV/entertainment writer who's also a friend is of the opinion that the last two seasons will be far better received 5-10 years from now, especially by those who missed out on the show's initial run and binge watch later. They'll view the series without the long gaps between seasons, the massive buildup and hype that was impossible to match, the endless theories of what would and should happen (and people getting mad when their ideas weren't brought to life on the screen), and the hundreds of online hot takes breathless posted after every episode.
I agree.

Well he's quoted as saying the ending will be different but the same but different. There's characters who are dead in the show who are alive in the books, and characters they didn't include.

My team Young Griff people know what I'm talking about.

Essentially Dumb and Dumber created a world where I highly doubt the ending matches it.

[Pakuni]

Well he's quoted as saying the ending will be different but the same but different. There's characters who are dead in the show who are alive in the books, and characters they didn't include.

My team Young Griff people know what I'm talking about.

Essentially Dumb and Dumber created a world where I highly doubt the ending matches it.

No one said it would be the exact same ending. I said Martin provided a framework for the ending he envisioned, and there's nothing to indicate - most notably Martin's own words -  the showrunners veered drastically away from that.

[Hards Alumni]

No one said it would be the exact same ending. I said Martin provided a framework for the ending he envisioned, and there's nothing to indicate - most notably Martin's own words -  the showrunners veered drastically away from that.

Except you have absolutely no idea how much he has or has not... let alone what he gave them.  GRRM is a notorious rewriter.

Sure, the ending will be similar when its all written (someday), but the way we get there will leave a much better story and legacy than the cow chips we are being asked to swallow from D&D.

[Hards Alumni]

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.
What I didn't see is season 8 turning Hards_Alumni into the Mad Scooper. #BigMad

I'm not madatchu.  Just think its pretty funny to say you didn't think the choice was out of left field... and your basis is Bovada... and then you didn't throw down some scratch to make it real.

[forgetful]

No one said it would be the exact same ending. I said Martin provided a framework for the ending he envisioned, and there's nothing to indicate - most notably Martin's own words -  the showrunners veered drastically away from that.

Martin has said that the show would have to be 5 seasons longer, to end properly, and that his ending wouldn't necessarily be the same as the show.

The main themes will be consistent, but not the endings.

GRRM shared the themes and emphases. Not the ending.