Game of Thrones fans here?

[Pakuni]

GRRM shared the themes and emphases. Not the ending.

From the horse's mouth:

Q: So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …
A: Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/

[forgetful]

From the horse's mouth:

Q: So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …
A: Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/

So you are agreeing with me? Your quotes say exactly what I said.

[forgetful]

I've never read a page of the books and didn't feel the choice was at all out of left field.

Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.

1a. Bran told everyone he didn't want anything anymore. Not Lord of Winterfell, or any other titles. This was a lie.
1b. Bran admitted he made the whole journey, because he knew he would be King after it was all said and done.
2. He knew the past and the future.
3. He knew Dany would destroy Kings landing (he had the vision of Dragon flying over KL).
4. He would have known that Dany destroyed Kings landing in part because of finding out about Jon's parentage.
5. He would have known that Jon would kill Dany because of it (he had to know this if he knew he would be King)
6. He insisted on Jon finding out anyway. He didn't do anything to stop Rhaegal from getting shot down and Missandei kidnapped. He set everything in motion.


So he knew about him becoming King and how, he actively set the pieces in motion to get it to happen, leading to the deaths of millions of people.

Bran is the ultimate villain in this show. The 3-eyed raven is evil. That is the only rational conclusion based on everything that transpired.

[MU82]

Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.

Pakuni can speak for himself re the entirety of your post, but he never said it was "obvious" that Bran would king. He merely said he didn't think it came out of left field. In other words, he didn't think it was outrageous that Bran became king, which I think you'll agree is far different from the opening line of your screed. Why you decided to take it to that level, only you know.

It would be like you saying, "I like Scarlett Johansson" and Pakuni responding, "So you hate every other human being on the planet then?"

[#UnleashSean]

Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.

1a. Bran told everyone he didn't want anything anymore. Not Lord of Winterfell, or any other titles. This was a lie.
1b. Bran admitted he made the whole journey, because he knew he would be King after it was all said and done.
2. He knew the past and the future.
3. He knew Dany would destroy Kings landing (he had the vision of Dragon flying over KL).
4. He would have known that Dany destroyed Kings landing in part because of finding out about Jon's parentage.
5. He would have known that Jon would kill Dany because of it (he had to know this if he knew he would be King)
6. He insisted on Jon finding out anyway. He didn't do anything to stop Rhaegal from getting shot down and Missandei kidnapped. He set everything in motion.


So he knew about him becoming King and how, he actively set the pieces in motion to get it to happen, leading to the deaths of millions of people.

Bran is the ultimate villain in this show. The 3-eyed raven is evil. That is the only rational conclusion based on everything that transpired.

OOOORRRR this is the best outcome for westoros. Maybe bran does stop something and instead of Dany destroying kings landing she ends up torching all of westoros. Or maybe he doesn't say something about Jon and the north goes to war with Dany over the iron throne.

You make a lot of assumptions this wasn't the best outcome out of all possibilities.

[MUBBau]

Just cause Bran doesn’t want it doesn’t mean he won’t take the crown for the betterment of the kingdom

[forgetful]

OOOORRRR this is the best outcome for westoros. Maybe bran does stop something and instead of Dany destroying kings landing she ends up torching all of westoros. Or maybe he doesn't say something about Jon and the north goes to war with Dany over the iron throne.

You make a lot of assumptions this wasn't the best outcome out of all possibilities.

Regardless it indicates that Bran is responsible for close to 1M deaths, that were part of him becoming King.

From a pure Kant categorical imperative perspective. Bran and Dany are either equally morally corrupt, or equally morally justified. Both caused the death of ~1M people.

Similarly, if Jon killing Dany was morally just, than it would have been morally just for the Night King to kill Bran.

[forgetful]

Just cause Bran doesn’t want it doesn’t mean he won’t take the crown for the betterment of the kingdom

There is a difference between taking it for the betterment of the Kingdom, and taking actions that facilitate gaining the crown that lead to the death of close to 1M innocent civilians.

Tyrion's "ask me in 10 years" was a poetic nod to GRRM's main point of his books. Governing is hard. Determining what "ruling wisely" entails is almost impossible, as most decisions have significant negative outcomes.

[Pakuni]

So you are agreeing with me? Your quotes say exactly what I said.

No. It's actually not at all what you said.
You said Martin "shared the themes and emphases. Not the ending."

Martin said in the interview I linked - and has made similar comments elsewhere - that he told them the "major points of the ending."
Not the themes. Not emphases. The ending. His word.

And here's what he told 60 Minutes in April:
"I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is going to be that different from my ending."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-will-george-rr-martin-final-game-of-thrones-books-end-60-minutes-2019-04-15/

So here we have Martin - a producer on the show who's told the writers how his books will end - saying the show's end won't be that different than his ending.

You're choosing not to take his words at face value because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

[Pakuni]

Just curious. So you think it was obvious that Bran would be King. I give you the following.

1a. Bran told everyone he didn't want anything anymore. Not Lord of Winterfell, or any other titles. This was a lie.
1b. Bran admitted he made the whole journey, because he knew he would be King after it was all said and done.
2. He knew the past and the future.
3. He knew Dany would destroy Kings landing (he had the vision of Dragon flying over KL).
4. He would have known that Dany destroyed Kings landing in part because of finding out about Jon's parentage.
5. He would have known that Jon would kill Dany because of it (he had to know this if he knew he would be King)
6. He insisted on Jon finding out anyway. He didn't do anything to stop Rhaegal from getting shot down and Missandei kidnapped. He set everything in motion.


So he knew about him becoming King and how, he actively set the pieces in motion to get it to happen, leading to the deaths of millions of people.

Bran is the ultimate villain in this show. The 3-eyed raven is evil. That is the only rational conclusion based on everything that transpired.

I never said it was "obvious" Bran would be king. I said it wasn't "wildly out of left field." Surely you understand the difference, right?

As for the rest:

1. No. Accepting the title doesn't make him a liar, any more so than Jon would have been a liar had he accepted it. Humans do and say things they don't want to do every day for the greater good.
1b. Maybe. But so what?
2. He knows the past. It's much less clear what future he can see. Greenseers, from my understanding, have dreams of possible futures, which is not the same as a clear vision of what certainly will come.
3. See above.
4. Assumes facts not in evidence. Also, see point #2.
5. See points 2-5.
6. This all assumes that because Bran can dream a possible future, he has the power to - and should  - stop it. Beyond that, please discuss the practical aspects of that - would your preferred ending  involve Bran learning to walk again, grabbing a sword and killing Dany?

But again, if you have a problem with the ending, take it up with George. It's his.

[Pakuni]

There is a difference between taking it for the betterment of the Kingdom, and taking actions that facilitate gaining the crown that lead to the death of close to 1M innocent civilians.

What actions did Bran take?

[forgetful]

But again, if you have a problem with the ending, take it up with George. It's his.

I never said I had a problem with the ending. I said I had a problem with the writing and not setting it up with any character development, or logic, or nuance.

I don't think GRRM will end the story the same way. He has said as much since the finale aired. The emphases and themes will be the same, but the actual ending will be different.

Largely, because he will actually focus on character development, logic, and nuance.

[forgetful]

What actions did Bran take?

The books make it clear that Greenseers cannot see a guaranteed future.

The show deviates from that substantially and indicated the opposite on multiple occasions, and implies that Bran can see the future, and will act on what he sees. He knew when Sam would come outside so that he could make him go tell Jon about his parentage. He knew "when his old friend, Jamie" would arrive to Winterfell so that he could greet him. He had visions of Drogon over Kings landing, and the ash filled throne room. He knew to give Arya the dagger, etc.

We also know that he can and will go back into the past to alter future events (see "HOld the DOoR"). At the very least he saw no reason to go back and save the ~1M that died because of his insistence that Jon knows his parentage.

Why was it so important than Jon know he was a Targaryan? Why did Bran need to insist emphatically that Jon know?

[jesmu84]

Assuming bran can see the future, isn't it possible that he made the choice that stopping the night king - who would destroy all of humanity - was the more important goal? And decided those killed by Dany at KL was better than all of humanity being killed?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Regardless it indicates that Bran is responsible for close to 1M deaths, that were part of him becoming King.

From a pure Kant categorical imperative perspective. Bran and Dany are either equally morally corrupt, or equally morally justified. Both caused the death of ~1M people.

Similarly, if Jon killing Dany was morally just, than it would have been morally just for the Night King to kill Bran.

So if Bran can see the future, which really isn't confirmed, is allowing the one million people to die in King's Landing the right choice if that ultimately saves more lives in the long run?

[UWW2MU]

So if Bran can see the future, which really isn't confirmed, is allowing the one million people to die in King's Landing the right choice if that ultimately saves more lives in the long run?

Which track is your trolley on?