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Author Topic: Game of Thrones fans here?  (Read 87402 times)

real chili 83

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1125 on: May 13, 2019, 08:24:06 PM »
You guys have a lot of free time.

Love the show.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1126 on: May 13, 2019, 11:35:46 PM »
Finally watched it. Loved it. Yes it was rushed. Whole damn season was rushed. That's what happens when you try to wrap months of events in like 8 hours. Another visually beautiful episode with lots of great moment. I loved the scenes with Arya trying to escape King's Landing.

Don't get the criticism of Jaime, this is exactly how his character would go. The Clegane Bowl was solid though fan servicey. Dany's decent into madness was a tad rushed, though not as rushed as people think. This has always been a part of here. She's just had Jorah, Missendre, and others to talk her out of it in the past. She lost too much so as this side of her grew stronger, there was no one to counterbalance it. It doesn't make sense that she would nuke the city? Of course not! Madness doesn't make sense.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1127 on: May 14, 2019, 01:32:57 AM »
Finally watched it. Loved it. Yes it was rushed. Whole damn season was rushed. That's what happens when you try to wrap months of events in like 8 hours. Another visually beautiful episode with lots of great moment. I loved the scenes with Arya trying to escape King's Landing.

Don't get the criticism of Jaime, this is exactly how his character would go. The Clegane Bowl was solid though fan servicey. Dany's decent into madness was a tad rushed, though not as rushed as people think. This has always been a part of here. She's just had Jorah, Missendre, and others to talk her out of it in the past. She lost too much so as this side of her grew stronger, there was no one to counterbalance it. It doesn't make sense that she would nuke the city? Of course not! Madness doesn't make sense.


Agree with everything you say.

mu03eng

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1128 on: May 14, 2019, 08:42:10 AM »
How much of the rushed feel to the season is the ability to film more than 6 episodes in real life. They took, what, 2 years off to pull this together and a lot of the stars of the show are stars in real life these days and have other projects going on.

The show producers have another HBO show plus the next Star Wars trilogy
Sophie Turner made Dark Phoenix and has other movie projects in the works not to mention whatever Jonas Bro she's married to
Peter Dinklage is making movies
Gwendoyln Christy was involved in Ep VII and VIII
Nathalie Emmanuel made several movies in 2017/2018
etc

Make a show of this scale, with this many actors involved has got to be a logistical nightmare. Factor in that HBO could only be so patient before bringing it back for the final season and I think you see what happens when artistic vision has to compromise with real life logistics.
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JWags85

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1129 on: May 14, 2019, 11:32:51 AM »
Don't get the criticism of Jaime, this is exactly how his character would go. The Clegane Bowl was solid though fan servicey. Dany's decent into madness was a tad rushed, though not as rushed as people think. This has always been a part of here. She's just had Jorah, Missendre, and others to talk her out of it in the past. She lost too much so as this side of her grew stronger, there was no one to counterbalance it. It doesn't make sense that she would nuke the city? Of course not! Madness doesn't make sense.

The point with Jamie is they wasted a bunch of time and narrative on the relationship with Brienne, which was largely fan service in execution and then abruptly swung it around and wrapped up the story with him and Cersie in that weak climax.  His overall arc throughout the story was fine, but again the execution was sloppy.

And Dany, it was just all too abrupt and fast.  She preached fire and brimstone about her enemies and her armies.  She was always sympathetic to the commoners.  Her leveling the Red Keep to prove a point would make sense, just a switch flipping which lead to her committing mass genocide was a bit absurd, and again, sloppy.

HBO offered them 10 episodes.  The schedules, logistics, whatever would not have precluded another 4 episodes.  Another season?  Sure.  But they could have gotten another 4 episodes to give themselves time and narrative buffer, but D&D were clearly over GoT and ready to go f*** up Star Wars and their weird Confederate project.  Their interviews after each episode clearly show it.  They couldn't not come off worse.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1130 on: May 14, 2019, 11:58:55 AM »
Jamie is a hero with a fatal flaw. Not all heroes overcome their fatal flaw. Jamie succumbed to his.

Agreed Danys descent was rushed.  Would have liked it to see it be a more gradual maddening. Doesn't mean I don't love where it ended up.

D&D may have been over GoT. I don't know how you would get that from the post show interviews. That's akin to criticizing Wojo for the huddle cams.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1131 on: May 14, 2019, 12:10:58 PM »
And Dany, it was just all too abrupt and fast.  She preached fire and brimstone about her enemies and her armies.  She was always sympathetic to the commoners.  Her leveling the Red Keep to prove a point would make sense, just a switch flipping which lead to her committing mass genocide was a bit absurd, and again, sloppy.

And yet there are multiple instances in the show dating back to at least season 2 (and in the books, as well, from my understanding) of her expressing a desire to destroy entire cities, only to be talked out of it by her trusted advisors. Now, with what advisors she had either dead (Missandei, Ser Jorah) or, in her mind, having betrayed and failed her (Jon, Tyrion), there was no one there to talk her off the ledge, so to speak.
Criticism that the show has been rushed is completely fair and accurate. But arguing that Dany turning mad queen was out of nowhere is just wrong.

JWags85

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1132 on: May 14, 2019, 01:01:33 PM »
And yet there are multiple instances in the show dating back to at least season 2 (and in the books, as well, from my understanding) of her expressing a desire to destroy entire cities, only to be talked out of it by her trusted advisors. Now, with what advisors she had either dead (Missandei, Ser Jorah) or, in her mind, having betrayed and failed her (Jon, Tyrion), there was no one there to talk her off the ledge, so to speak.
Criticism that the show has been rushed is completely fair and accurate. But arguing that Dany turning mad queen was out of nowhere is just wrong.

To be fair, I never said it was out of nowhere, clearly they hinted at it.  It was just zero to 100.  And the trigger for it, within the episode, just seemed weak.

D&D may have been over GoT. I don't know how you would get that from the post show interviews. That's akin to criticizing Wojo for the huddle cams.

No, its akin to a post game presser hearing there was no justification for seemingly baffling in game adjustments.  "Coach, why did you keep Markus on the bench despite the lead slipping away when he was the one who helped you build it?  Ehh, idk, I kind of forgot about who was on my bench."

Their justification for the baffling scene where Dany on her dragons are flying and get sniped was "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet".  I mean seriously?  There was something from this week that was absurd too, I'm blanking at the moment

Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1133 on: May 14, 2019, 01:03:50 PM »
The point with Jamie is they wasted a bunch of time and narrative on the relationship with Brienne, which was largely fan service in execution and then abruptly swung it around and wrapped up the story with him and Cersie in that weak climax.  His overall arc throughout the story was fine, but again the execution was sloppy.



Disagree. It was consistent with the rest of his arc. He was a decent man except when it came to Cersei. In the very first episode, he was willing to murder a kid for her. When she was not involved, he was a different person.

CreightonWarrior

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1134 on: May 14, 2019, 01:16:28 PM »
The biggest loser Sunday night was anyone who named their daughter Khaleesi or Daenerys.
Quote
Data from the Social Security Administration show that since the HBO version of "Game of Thrones" first aired in 2011, at least 3,500 American girls have been named either 'Daenerys' or 'Khaleesi' (one of the character's royal titles) in her honor.

muwarrior69

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1135 on: May 14, 2019, 03:50:57 PM »
Why is Dany the mad queen? I would have done the very same thing to prevent my enemy from having the ability to make war. Was Lincoln the mad President after Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground started his march to the sea burning and destroying everything in his path. Was Truman the Mad President ordering the atomic bombs on Japan in hopes of ending the war sooner?

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1136 on: May 14, 2019, 03:54:00 PM »
Why is Dany the mad queen? I would have done the very same thing to prevent my enemy from having the ability to make war. Was Lincoln the mad President after Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground started his march to the sea burning and destroying everything in his path. Was Truman the Mad President ordering the atomic bombs on Japan in hopes of ending the war sooner?

Analogy doesn't fit.
Japan hadn't surrendered before Truman dropped the bomb, nor had General Lee before Sherman's march.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1137 on: May 14, 2019, 05:19:41 PM »
Just saw a story The Simpsons predicted one of the final episodes two years ago.

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1138 on: May 15, 2019, 12:16:23 PM »

forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1139 on: May 15, 2019, 01:02:31 PM »
What I don't get is we saw the Dothraki die in episode 3. D&D confirmed that we saw the end of the Dothraki.

Now suddenly in this episode, and the preview for next week, we have thousands remaining.

Similar, but not on the same scale for the Unsullied.


forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1140 on: May 15, 2019, 01:13:37 PM »
OK, which if you is behind this?

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers

I saw a really good explanation for the problems with writing. It is not competent vs. incompetent writers. It is a clash of styles.

They referred to it as plotters vs. panthers. I like to think of it as "intelligent design" vs. "free will". Plotters design the entire story from day 1. Every major scene and event carved out, and everything then designed around that. For plotters it is an intelligent design to get to an end point. Characters serve as plot pieces, designed to get from point A to point B. Apparently, D&D are epic plotters.

Pantsers fly by the seat of their pants. There is no major designed story. There are designed characters, where the story is crafted from their decisions (Free Will). The plot spirals and grows as a consequence of their decisions, leading to a totally organic world, revolving around the characters. GRRM is know as a "Pantser" and has said his story design leads to more difficult and long conclusions. He is known to say that it would take 5 more seasons to properly finish the story.

The first 4 seasons stayed true to GRRM's "Free Will" world, as he had a significant hand in story telling. When he left D&D, had control, and switched to an "intelligent design" type of writing. They had their ending. Their current time point, and set a limited number of episodes to connect the dots with major scenes to make sure it was consistent.

The characters then were no longer operating based on their character, but rather plot points to get from A to B. Organic timelines were gone, to favor getting pieces in position with the scene/episode timeline. All was necessary to wrap it up on time.

The article made a good point. Neither approach is wrong for story telling. Both are very successful approaches. They are just different in construction, and when the show switches mid-stream between the two, it is glaringly obvious that characters and timelines are no longer operating the same and it comes across as awkward and inconsistent with the original world.

mr.MUskie

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1141 on: May 15, 2019, 01:31:26 PM »
So what are people's predictions for the final episode?

  • Dany will execute Tyrion for freeing Jamie. She almost has to at this point.
  • Arya will try to kill Dany and fail. Dany will execute her. I feel Arya has to die because she's become the hero of the story and she's probably the one character whose death no one is expecting.
  • Jon will lose it with Arya's death; she was always his favorite of the Starks. He will kill Dany, then refuse the throne.
  • With no Targaryean heir, Gendry Baratheon, now the lawful heir of Robert, will take the throne.
  • Sansa will die. Not sure how or by whose hand, but I think she dies. That's why in the pre-season trailer, Jon's statue was of an old man while Sansa & Arya still looked young.

*Jon kills Dany cuz she's nuts
*Jon heads north and meets up with Ghost
*Tyrion becomes king, with Sansa his queen
*Arya rides off into the sunset cuz she needs some me time


Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1142 on: May 15, 2019, 02:57:40 PM »
I saw a really good explanation for the problems with writing. It is not competent vs. incompetent writers. It is a clash of styles.

They referred to it as plotters vs. panthers. I like to think of it as "intelligent design" vs. "free will". Plotters design the entire story from day 1. Every major scene and event carved out, and everything then designed around that. For plotters it is an intelligent design to get to an end point. Characters serve as plot pieces, designed to get from point A to point B. Apparently, D&D are epic plotters.

Pantsers fly by the seat of their pants. There is no major designed story. There are designed characters, where the story is crafted from their decisions (Free Will). The plot spirals and grows as a consequence of their decisions, leading to a totally organic world, revolving around the characters. GRRM is know as a "Pantser" and has said his story design leads to more difficult and long conclusions. He is known to say that it would take 5 more seasons to properly finish the story.

The first 4 seasons stayed true to GRRM's "Free Will" world, as he had a significant hand in story telling. When he left D&D, had control, and switched to an "intelligent design" type of writing. They had their ending. Their current time point, and set a limited number of episodes to connect the dots with major scenes to make sure it was consistent.

The characters then were no longer operating based on their character, but rather plot points to get from A to B. Organic timelines were gone, to favor getting pieces in position with the scene/episode timeline. All was necessary to wrap it up on time.

The article made a good point. Neither approach is wrong for story telling. Both are very successful approaches. They are just different in construction, and when the show switches mid-stream between the two, it is glaringly obvious that characters and timelines are no longer operating the same and it comes across as awkward and inconsistent with the original world.

I don't disagree with what you say, but you also need to recognize that books and tV shows are two entirely different mediums.

The author can write in great, great detail without any limitation (except for maybe an editor who will cut hundreds of pages as happened to Stephen King when he wrote The Stand). He can go into backgrounds of every character even if they are not major players. He can go into the long history of different nations. He has no restraints.

The TV writer is bound by numerous restraints, however. Time, being the main one. He has to write "across time"  so that sometimes the timelines don't match up real well. He cannot go into the same detail. The watcher has to make certain assumptions whereas the reader does not.

If Dany's descent into madness were in the next book, the author could detail it over an extended period of time. The tV show doesn't have the same luxury. Instead, we have to look back at her history in earlier years and what her basic impulses are. We need to look back at family history where her brother goes from a gentle loving person to a monster. It's all there on the tV show - you just don't get as much detail.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1143 on: May 15, 2019, 03:25:21 PM »
Wait. They cut 100s of pages from the stand? Holy crap it was bible thick already
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Waldo Jeffers

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1144 on: May 15, 2019, 03:28:18 PM »
Wait. They cut 100s of pages from the stand? Holy crap it was bible thick already

the original release was probably 800 pages less than the re-issue years later

Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1145 on: May 15, 2019, 03:36:42 PM »
the original release was probably 800 pages less than the re-issue years later

I think the original was 700-800 pages and the re-issue was 1100-1200.

Too lazy to look it up.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1146 on: May 15, 2019, 03:39:26 PM »
the original release was probably 800 pages less than the re-issue years later

Got it. Probably read the reissue first and never realized there was a skinnier version
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1147 on: May 15, 2019, 04:10:15 PM »
I don't disagree with what you say, but you also need to recognize that books and tV shows are two entirely different mediums.

The author can write in great, great detail without any limitation (except for maybe an editor who will cut hundreds of pages as happened to Stephen King when he wrote The Stand). He can go into backgrounds of every character even if they are not major players. He can go into the long history of different nations. He has no restraints.

The TV writer is bound by numerous restraints, however. Time, being the main one. He has to write "across time"  so that sometimes the timelines don't match up real well. He cannot go into the same detail. The watcher has to make certain assumptions whereas the reader does not.

If Dany's descent into madness were in the next book, the author could detail it over an extended period of time. The tV show doesn't have the same luxury. Instead, we have to look back at her history in earlier years and what her basic impulses are. We need to look back at family history where her brother goes from a gentle loving person to a monster. It's all there on the tV show - you just don't get as much detail.

I don't disagree with you. The article essentially pointed out (and I agree) that the problem was they did the first 4-5 seasons like the books. They went into detail, let the characters develop the world and story. Then they switched styles when GRRM became less involved.

It creates a bit of a discontinuity in style. Both are good. They are just different, and not necessarily in tune with one another. Its hard for some (myself included), to adjust to how it changed. I've never been good with change.

I've also done some writing, and am a "pantser". So I may be more naturally aligned with how GRRM handled the story development.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1148 on: May 15, 2019, 06:33:33 PM »
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Jay Bee

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #1149 on: May 15, 2019, 07:17:30 PM »
Still haven't ever seen game of dorks, but that Sophie Turner chick is growing on me (and vice versa)