Game of Thrones fans here?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Thought this was an interesting take on Dany going mad.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/game-of-thrones-daenerys-the-bells-analysis.amp

[forgetful]

Actual writeup and the source of the summary of "pantsers" vs. "plotters" I was referring to.

https://twitter.com/DSilvermint/status/1125856091261136896

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thought this was an interesting take on Dany going mad.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashable.com/article/game-of-thrones-daenerys-the-bells-analysis.amp

This gets at a lot of thoughts I've had about Dany's character for a while now. I never understood why she was so universally beloved. I never bought into her schtick. Always struck me as a trust fund kid who's family has fallen on tough times and is simply demanding to get back to the lifestyle she feels is owed to her.

[forgetful]

This gets at a lot of thoughts I've had about Dany's character for a while now. I never understood why she was so universally beloved. I never bought into her schtick. Always struck me as a trust fund kid who's family has fallen on tough times and is simply demanding to get back to the lifestyle she feels is owed to her.

Just to confirm. You haven't read the books, right?

Dany never had anything. She was born in a storm. Her mother died. She was orphaned and rushed off. Her only happy memories were a modest house with a red door in Braavos. She spent her entire life, largely bankrupt and living off the good will of others as she ran from people trying to kill her.

Her dream was to go home (to the modest house with a red door). '

Her ideas changed when Jorah informed her that the people were not waiting for her brother. That they did not care about who won the game of thrones, that all they wanted was to be left alone. She viewed all of Westeros as having the red doors, symbolically it was the moment she wanted to protect the common people, from bad/dangerous rulers like her brother.

[Hards Alumni]

This gets at a lot of thoughts I've had about Dany's character for a while now. I never understood why she was so universally beloved. I never bought into her schtick. Always struck me as a trust fund kid who's family has fallen on tough times and is simply demanding to get back to the lifestyle she feels is owed to her.

Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does.  She is just, and cares for the common person.

Well until last week.

[LON]

Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does.  She is just, and cares for the common person.

Well until last week.

But, she had THOUGHTS to destroy everything!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just to confirm. You haven't read the books, right?

Dany never had anything. She was born in a storm. Her mother died. She was orphaned and rushed off. Her only happy memories were a modest house with a red door in Braavos. She spent her entire life, largely bankrupt and living off the good will of others as she ran from people trying to kill her.

Her dream was to go home (to the modest house with a red door). '

Her ideas changed when Jorah informed her that the people were not waiting for her brother. That they did not care about who won the game of thrones, that all they wanted was to be left alone. She viewed all of Westeros as having the red doors, symbolically it was the moment she wanted to protect the common people, from bad/dangerous rulers like her brother.

I have read them. I still feel the same way.

Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does.  She is just, and cares for the common person.

Well until last week.

I have never bought that she cared for the common person. I think it is more accurate to say that she hates those in power....because she feels like she should be the one in power.

[LON]

I have read them. I still feel the same way.

I have never bought that she cared for the common person. I think it is more accurate to say that she hates those in power....because she feels like she should be the one in power.

Who has actually cared for the commoner? Other than Varys, the closest one I can think of is Margaery, but you can argue that was disingenuous and served her ultimate goal of being Queen, at worst.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Who has actually cared for the commoner? Other than Varys, the closest one I can think of is Margaery, but you can argue that was disingenuous and served her ultimate goal of being Queen, at worst.

I'd add John, Tyrion, and Eddard to the list. I agree that Margaery's care for the common folk was disingenuous though I would still say more genuine than Dany's.

[LON]

I'd add John, Tyrion, and Eddard to the list. I agree that Margaery's care for the common folk was disingenuous though I would still say more genuine than Dany's.

I can get on board with them, Eddard no doubt.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Even in the TV shows, she is beloved because of all the good she does.  She is just, and cares for the common person.

Well until last week.

You can certainly argue some followed her because of fear or even awe. The Dothraki didn't follow her because she was just.

Was incinerating the Tarleys just?

[brewcity77]

Was incinerating the Tarleys just?

Yes. Enemy general who turned traitor on his sworn liege (House Tyrell) to take up arms against the rightful surviving heir to the Iron Throne. His son refused to leave his father's side, so his execution is on the same grounds. (That would be Dany's perspective, but definitely just)

[brewcity77]

The clincher for me that Dany's turn was lazy was in rewatching it, specifically the "Previously on" scene before the opening credits. They spent a lot of time playing background quotes about Targaryens going mad behind Dany. They were trying to convince the audience this was always obvious. Even worse, some of those quotes weren't from past episodes, but from the episode that was about to air!

"We haven't really sold this 'Mad Queen' concept yet, so let's try to jam it into the 60-second episode preview. Hope everyone watches that!"

When Varys talked about the coin flip in the first scene with Jon and you hear him say a quote that was used multiple times in the intro just a couple minutes before, it really feels hacky. I didn't notice it the first time, but it stuck out like a sore thumb the second.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Yes. Enemy general who turned traitor on his sworn liege (House Tyrell) to take up arms against the rightful surviving heir to the Iron Throne. His son refused to leave his father's side, so his execution is on the same grounds. (That would be Dany's perspective, but definitely just)

Disagree.  Execution wasn't necessary nor just. 

[UWW2MU]

The clincher for me that Dany's turn was lazy was in rewatching it, specifically the "Previously on" scene before the opening credits. They spent a lot of time playing background quotes about Targaryens going mad behind Dany. They were trying to convince the audience this was always obvious. Even worse, some of those quotes weren't from past episodes, but from the episode that was about to air!

"We haven't really sold this 'Mad Queen' concept yet, so let's try to jam it into the 60-second episode preview. Hope everyone watches that!"

When Varys talked about the coin flip in the first scene with Jon and you hear him say a quote that was used multiple times in the intro just a couple minutes before, it really feels hacky. I didn't notice it the first time, but it stuck out like a sore thumb the second.

Yes, but this quote has been around multiple times since Barristen Selmy first said it in Season 2.

I think you guys are really getting way too worked up about the Dany going mad... there was way more foreshadowing that it would happen than we needed.  Plus she lost her closest friends, allies, and 2 dragons in a short span of time.  Plus Emilia Clarke did a great job of acting during the fireside talk with Jon in the last episode of taking the path of love or fear... and because Jon rejected her love, she chose fear then and there. 

Anyway, I'm surprised by how much backlash this has gotten because the whole "long night" and Night King / Bran thing to me was far more rushed and hacked into hardly anything.

[brewcity77]

Disagree.  Execution wasn't necessary nor just.

From Dany's perspective it was both. He wouldn't bend the knee to his lawful queen. He wouldn't take the black. He was a traitor. What other punishment should she have rendered?

The Tarlys made their choice. Both of them. There was no alternative at that point.

[LON]

Yes, but this quote has been around multiple times since Barristen Selmy first said it in Season 2.

I think you guys are really getting way too worked up about the Dany going mad... there was way more foreshadowing that it would happen than we needed.  Plus she lost her closest friends, allies, and 2 dragons in a short span of time.  Plus Emilia Clarke did a great job of acting during the fireside talk with Jon in the last episode of taking the path of love or fear... and because Jon rejected her love, she chose fear then and there. 

Anyway, I'm surprised by how much backlash this has gotten because the whole "long night" and Night King / Bran thing to me was far more rushed and hacked into hardly anything.

The time for her to go crazy was when Missandei got her head cut off and all her enemies were sitting right there.

[brewcity77]

Anyway, I'm surprised by how much backlash this has gotten because the whole "long night" and Night King / Bran thing to me was far more rushed and hacked into hardly anything.

I wanted more explanation, but that was always going to come down to one last battle & one last strike from Arya. The Night King has been marching for 5 seasons now. He first appeared in S4, attacked Hardhome in S5, killed the Three Eyed Raven in S6, marches toward Eastwatch, battles Jon's companions, and breaches the Wall in S7, then massacres Last Hearth all before the final battle in S8.

The Night King has been marching, killing, & building his army for a long time. Dany's madness was a switch flip, IMO.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

From Dany's perspective it was both. He wouldn't bend the knee to his lawful queen. He wouldn't take the black. He was a traitor. What other punishment should she have rendered?

The Tarlys made their choice. Both of them. There was no alternative at that point.

I think the general practice in both Westeros and the real world is that you don't execute prisoners of war who have surrendered.

I wanted more explanation, but that was always going to come down to one last battle & one last strike from Arya. The Night King has been marching for 5 seasons now. He first appeared in S4, attacked Hardhome in S5, killed the Three Eyed Raven in S6, marches toward Eastwatch, battles Jon's companions, and breaches the Wall in S7, then massacres Last Hearth all before the final battle in S8.

The Night King has been marching, killing, & building his army for a long time. Dany's madness was a switch flip, IMO.

I mean, Dany crucified people. Literally crucified hundreds of people. I think anyone capable of ordering that has a touch of madness.

[forgetful]

I think the general practice in both Westeros and the real world is that you don't execute prisoners of war who have surrendered.

I mean, Dany crucified people. Literally crucified hundreds of people. I think anyone capable of ordering that has a touch of madness.

The punishment for treason or oath breaking in Westeros is death. It was allowed for people to take the black instead, but the Night's Watch no longer existed.

Dany followed the law. She did exactly as a lord is supposed to do.

Not to mention, the Tarly's, and others may have surrendered, but they refused to acknowledge her as their queen, which is treason. If she executed them after they pledged their loyalty to her, then you could claim madness. But she didn't do that.

[MUBurrow]

The clincher for me that Dany's turn was lazy was in rewatching it, specifically the "Previously on" scene before the opening credits. They spent a lot of time playing background quotes about Targaryens going mad behind Dany. They were trying to convince the audience this was always obvious. Even worse, some of those quotes weren't from past episodes, but from the episode that was about to air!

"We haven't really sold this 'Mad Queen' concept yet, so let's try to jam it into the 60-second episode preview. Hope everyone watches that!"

This is exactly the "previously on" scene I was going to highlight. I thought it was Dany's best scene in years, and it was a compilation outside the show itself.

I don't have a problem at all with where Dany ends up, its just not narraratively satisfying because we don't get a real look at her descent.  Her "fire and brimstone" stuff from season 2 and other early season feels somewhat disconnected from this, because that was inexperience and calculation. A young girl's "this is how leaders behave, right?" type stuff. Its calculated, but misplaced.  Then we see her growth as a leader. I don't have a problem at all with her doubling back on her "breaker of chains" identity, but we're not left with a clear picture of what part of that was her inexperienced bent toward cruelty from earlier seasons and what part of that is "mad king" traditionally unhinged Targaryen. 

"No one really changes" is a cool arc, and a cool point for writers to make, but this doesn't feel like that. There is meant to be an unhinged element to her behavior now, and I actually think the speed of this season lends to that in a positive way - things are rolling downhill really quickly now. I thought this past episode did a great job of capturing that, actually. Jon and Tyrion especially portray a hopeless kind of "oh crap what have we done, its too late to turn back" that really comes through. I just wish more of Dany's screentime this season were dedicated to either (1) the "voices in her head" kind of stuff that we saw in the "previously on" scene, or (2) something that shows she was disingenuous about making the world a better place the whole time.  Her plot developments have really lacked that motivational oomph, and I don't feel like D&D would have had to move heaven and earth to make the screentime she's had this season more effective in that way.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The punishment for treason or oath breaking in Westeros is death. It was allowed for people to take the black instead, but the Night's Watch no longer existed.

Dany followed the law. She did exactly as a lord is supposed to do.

Not to mention, the Tarly's, and others may have surrendered, but they refused to acknowledge her as their queen, which is treason. If she executed them after they pledged their loyalty to her, then you could claim madness. But she didn't do that.

I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.

[Pakuni]

I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.

Right. If it were such a foregone, accepted conclusion, Tyrion wouldn't have advised her against it. And Jon and Sam wouldn't have reacted to it as they did.
One could say she was within her rights to execute them for failing to bend the knee, but the fact she went against her Hand and chose not to show mercy when it likely would have been in her best interests certainly shows she had a cruel - or at least vengeful - streak in her.

For comparison's sake, everyone was aghast when Joffrey had prisoner Ned executed, and he was (justifiably) portrayed as a monster, although death is the punishment for treason in Westeros.

[Galway Eagle]

Right. If it were such a foregone, accepted conclusion, Tyrion wouldn't have advised her against it. And Jon and Sam wouldn't have reacted to it as they did.
One could say she was within her rights to execute them for failing to bend the knee, but the fact she went against her Hand and chose not to show mercy when it likely would have been in her best interests certainly shows she had a cruel - or at least vengeful - streak in her.

For comparison's sake, everyone was aghast when Joffrey had prisoner Ned executed, and he was (justifiably) portrayed as a monster, although death is the punishment for treason in Westeros.

It isn't treason alone. That was the whole surprise of the episode, everybody set it up so Ned could take the black after admitting treason (which he did) then Joffrey was supposed to say go north but he didn't.

[brewcity77]

I think anyone who views enemy combatants refusing to acknowledge her as their queen as treason has a touch of madness.

They were traitors when they betrayed House Tyrell.