Game of Thrones fans here?

[JWags85]

I suppose my issue with some of the criticism is that I get the impression (and I could be wrong) that some people go into watching an episode actually looking for things to nitpick, ridicule, or complain about. 

The White Walkers having chains to pull out the dragon is one example, which can be explained very easily. 

It's fine if some don't think the writing is as good or don't like the pacing - that's subjective.  But saying if someone disagrees then they don't know good writing is ridiculous.   

I think its more when you overall don't enjoy the episode, you start thinking of things about it.  This is the first episode in awhile where I was like "for F*** sake".  And yes, I was one of those who complained about the chains, not in a nitpicky sense, but because it all seemed so easy and convenient.

And I totally get your point about complaining about someone not knowing good writing, but the flip side are those who act like anyone who doesn't gleefully lap up everything GoT throws out, then they are some TV snob who is never happy.

And for the record, for all of my "negativity" in this thread, I'm still very much looking forward to Sunday.

[Hards Alumni]

I think this is the bigger point that justifies the criticism and its not even HBO's fault necessarily. The show was nearly unassailable in its quality on all fronts for three or so seasons. Then, IMO, it seemed to start spinning it's wheels a bit as it kept introducing new story threads from the books that don't actually move the overarching story forward. That also seemed to be a direct result of waiting on Martin to write more, which hasn't happened, and I think ultimately led to a pivot from the showrunners and the rushed pacing we see now as HBO trues to close out the series before it fades to obscurity waiting on the books to finish.

Once all is said and done, I'd be curious to see someone's reaction to binging the entire series. I think that's type of viewing would show the issues being poin ted out more glaringly  - similar to rewatching The Wire now and realizing that Season 5 really failed to pales in comparison to earlier seasons.

It's still one of the best shows on TV. It has just gotten formulaic in a way that I've gotten spoiled in the golden age of television not to expect from prestogie drama. I wish there was more time to let these major events breathe and develop this season as I think that would have helped with the suspension of disbelief issues people - including myself - are having. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing the series resolve though.


Edit: Haha. I guess The Wire was a pretty good example since two other people brought it up while I typed. Also, even though I feel that way about The Wire, I still think it is one of the greatest TV shows ever. I would guess most critics in this thread feel the same way about GoT.

Yes, exactly this.

The chains could have been, like many things on this show in the past, been quietly alluded to.  Chains in the distance with wights carrying them, for instance, in a wide shot.  I'm not saying we need Chekov's gun situations every time, but the implication that the ambush was planned ahead of time would have been better... rather than being happenstance.  Its all just a little less clever and more ham fisted than we should expect from this show.

[jesmu84]

Yes, exactly this.

The chains could have been, like many things on this show in the past, been quietly alluded to.  Chains in the distance with wights carrying them, for instance, in a wide shot.  I'm not saying we need Chekov's gun situations every time, but the implication that the ambush was planned ahead of time would have been better... rather than being happenstance.  Its all just a little less clever and more ham fisted than we should expect from this show.

For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.

Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?

Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.

[brewcity77]

For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.

Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?

Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.

Didn't we already know animals could be turned? We've seen Walkers on top of horses for at least 3-4 seasons now.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I think its more when you overall don't enjoy the episode, you start thinking of things about it.  This is the first episode in awhile where I was like "for F*** sake".  And yes, I was one of those who complained about the chains, not in a nitpicky sense, but because it all seemed so easy and convenient.

And I totally get your point about complaining about someone not knowing good writing, but the flip side are those who act like anyone who doesn't gleefully lap up everything GoT throws out, then they are some TV snob who is never happy.

And for the record, for all of my "negativity" in this thread, I'm still very much looking forward to Sunday.

Fair points. 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.

Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?

Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.

Well I'm guessing at the point Jon didn't realize the group may have needed the dragons to survive this particular encounter so they weren't part of the equation.  That seemed like a last-gasp longs shot (although you can definitely argue they should have known it may have been necessary considering their odds).

Now, in terms of the Night King's spear, I got the impression it can take down a dragon regardless of where it hits it (unlike the scorpion, which would basically need a direct hit).  Is that correct or incorrect?

[Spotcheck Billy]

There is a theory going around that Jon will become the Night King in order to lead the wights etc. back beyond the wall. It goes further to speculate that the Night King used to be Azor Ahai. It claims that Azor is the original Night King, took up the job in a moment of sacrifice (like Jon Snow will), and even helped build the wall:

"Someone has to 'pull out' the dragonglass in his chest which was used to create him in the first place. By doing this the Night King would 'die,' but unlike what happens when someone kills a 'normal' white walker, none of the creatures the Night king 'created' or turned would die. Instead they would lose the mind controlling effect the Night King has on them, and they would start doing whatever the f*ck they want, i.e. rampaging around the country. To prevent this scenario from happening someone has to take the place of the Night King by stabbing himself with the previously extracted dragonglass-dagger. By doing this the person (in our mind Jon Snow) would sacrifice himself for the greater good, gaining control over all of the wights and walkers. He then would lead them back over the wall back into the north where they would stay like it has been before since the last long night (like a beast in a cage)."

"After that the Night King secluded himself far in the North where no one else could survive. Now over time (in the many years since the Long Night) the personality of the former Azor Ahai slowly began to decay and he finally turned into what we see now in the series as the Night King. At some point the vanishing personality of Azor Ahai could no longer hold in check the 'evil' that was lingering inside him. At that point the Night King started moving again, returning from the far North and slowly started creating new white walkers / wights as he had before.

[forgetful]

For example, the zombie bear was shown clearly to indicate that the walkers could also turn dead animals. That was a prelude to the zombie dragon. Otherwise it would have made no sense that all a sudden we find out animals can be undead.

Related, after Jon and company's encounter with the bear.. does he really have zero thoughts that the dragon might be next?

Also, I'm buying into the theory that bran is the night king.

Actually, no.  The zombie bear was not there for any particular purpose.  The produces have admitted that they put it in, simply because they thought the idea of a zombie polar bear was cool...not for any other actual purpose. 

Apparently they've been trying to introduce a zombie polar bear for several seasons, but there was never even a remote opportunity to do so.  With them being north of the wall in season 7, it was their best opportunity so they scripted it in.  That's it, no special purpose (as others have noted we already knew animals could turn), simply they thought it was cool.

[forgetful]

There is a theory going around that Jon will become the Night King in order to lead the wights etc. back beyond the wall. It goes further to speculate that the Night King used to be Azor Ahai. It claims that Azor is the original Night King, took up the job in a moment of sacrifice (like Jon Snow will), and even helped build the wall:

"Someone has to 'pull out' the dragonglass in his chest which was used to create him in the first place. By doing this the Night King would 'die,' but unlike what happens when someone kills a 'normal' white walker, none of the creatures the Night king 'created' or turned would die. Instead they would lose the mind controlling effect the Night King has on them, and they would start doing whatever the f*ck they want, i.e. rampaging around the country. To prevent this scenario from happening someone has to take the place of the Night King by stabbing himself with the previously extracted dragonglass-dagger. By doing this the person (in our mind Jon Snow) would sacrifice himself for the greater good, gaining control over all of the wights and walkers. He then would lead them back over the wall back into the north where they would stay like it has been before since the last long night (like a beast in a cage)."

"After that the Night King secluded himself far in the North where no one else could survive. Now over time (in the many years since the Long Night) the personality of the former Azor Ahai slowly began to decay and he finally turned into what we see now in the series as the Night King. At some point the vanishing personality of Azor Ahai could no longer hold in check the 'evil' that was lingering inside him. At that point the Night King started moving again, returning from the far North and slowly started creating new white walkers / wights as he had before.

I think Rhaegar Targaryen was the prince that was promised and Jon Snow is Lightbringer.

[brewcity77]

I'm still loving the show, but I really wish they hadn't got ahead of the books. When they started to diverge from the book storyline in Season 2, most notably with the House of the Undying storyline, it was a disappointment. Now it's quite a ways from the beaten track. Stannis, Barristan Selmy, and so many others will still be alive whenever Martin gets back to writing. The Battle of the Bastards hasn't happened, Cersei's bombing of the Great Sept of Baelor, having watched the episodes without any books in 6 years will likely have me completely confused by the time TWOW finally comes out.

[mu03eng]

I'm still loving the show, but I really wish they hadn't got ahead of the books. When they started to diverge from the book storyline in Season 2, most notably with the House of the Undying storyline, it was a disappointment. Now it's quite a ways from the beaten track. Stannis, Barristan Selmy, and so many others will still be alive whenever Martin gets back to writing. The Battle of the Bastards hasn't happened, Cersei's bombing of the Great Sept of Baelor, having watched the episodes without any books in 6 years will likely have me completely confused by the time TWOW finally comes out.

Curious, as I've never watched the show nor read the books (I'm weird because I consume space based sci-fi by IV but HATE fantasy sci-fi), but what percentage of show watchers are actually book readers? I get the impression that the majority of watchers have at best a passing awareness of the books. How much concern did HBO have with staying with the book if the audience wasn't majority into the books.

Plus, didn't this show start like 8 years ago and there hasn't been a new book in that whole time? Seems pretty reasonable for HBO to think they would have had new source material to work off of by now and so has now had to audible.

[brewcity77]

Curious, as I've never watched the show nor read the books (I'm weird because I consume space based sci-fi by IV but HATE fantasy sci-fi), but what percentage of show watchers are actually book readers? I get the impression that the majority of watchers have at best a passing awareness of the books. How much concern did HBO have with staying with the book if the audience wasn't majority into the books.

Plus, didn't this show start like 8 years ago and there hasn't been a new book in that whole time? Seems pretty reasonable for HBO to think they would have had new source material to work off of by now and so has now had to audible.

Show started in April 2011, the fifth book came out later that same year. Book 6 was originally slated for 2015, but has been repeatedly pushed back. I think we'll see it next year, but who knows when the seventh (and final) book will be released. I honestly think 2024-2028 is a reasonable window.

[warriorchick]

Show started in April 2011, the fifth book came out later that same year. Book 6 was originally slated for 2015, but has been repeatedly pushed back. I think we'll see it next year, but who knows when the seventh (and final) book will be released. I honestly think 2024-2028 is a reasonable window.

It will be easy for him to finish once the show determines the plotlines for him.

 

[JWags85]

Show started in April 2011, the fifth book came out later that same year. Book 6 was originally slated for 2015, but has been repeatedly pushed back. I think we'll see it next year, but who knows when the seventh (and final) book will be released. I honestly think 2024-2028 is a reasonable window.

I'll take the bet that he never finishes.  He seems to be in no hurry, and he doesn't appear to be the most healthy man.  I think he finishes Book 6 sometime before 2020 and then we get someone else finishing the series.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-timeline-director-1202534403/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/25/entertainment/game-of-thrones-nitpicking/index.html

[Jockey]

Curious, as I've never watched the show nor read the books (I'm weird because I consume space based sci-fi by IV but HATE fantasy sci-fi), but what percentage of show watchers are actually book readers? I get the impression that the majority of watchers have at best a passing awareness of the books. How much concern did HBO have with staying with the book if the audience wasn't majority into the books.

HBO hired Martin as an advisor and screenwriter, so I imagine they wanted to stay pretty close to the storylines in the books. But at about 3,500 pages, there is obviously a lot of picking and choosing that needs to take place.

My guess is that you would enjoy the show. I have never read a fantasy novel in my life, but find the show fascinating.

[tower912]

And the Walls,
Come tumbling down

Mellencamp.

See you in a couple of years.

[Jockey]

In before the naysayers...

A great episode!!

[mayfairskatingrink]

Loved the Ice Dragon, but the rest was crap.

And the Dany/Jon sex scene played out like bad Stephanie Meyer.

Early this year, I heard about a leaked script that had the Dany/Jon sex in it and it sounded so ridiculous, I thought  it was one of the fake scripts put out to throw people off the track.

[nyg]

And the Walls,
Come tumbling down

Mellencamp.

See you in a couple of years.

Yeah, that was Eastwatch,  next stop the big wall.

Was that fire or ice coming from its mouth?

Is Jaime enroute to Winterfell by himself to alert them Cersai has gone back on word?

Ayria still has The Hound and Cersai on her list.  Should be interesting if she actually makes it.

One year to go, filming starts in October for last season with a September/October finale start date.  Read that today.

[CreightonWarrior]

Man 60% of the episode (it feels like) was spent on that Wight Summit and everything is the still the same besides Jaime leaving.

[Galway Eagle]

Yay little finger is gone!

[MU82]

Wow. Enjoyed the hell out of it. If that means I'm not "deep" enough for the book people, I plead guilty.

[forgetful]

Overall, very good episode.  Jaime leaves Cersei, Littlefinger dead, ice and fire united, and the wall comes down. 

In the books I was certain that Jon and Dany would marry/unite; wasn't as sure if they would do it in the show. 

Ayria still has The Hound and Cersai on her list.  Should be interesting if she actually makes it.

The Hound isn't on her list anymore.  He was removed.  Cersai is still on the list.  So is Ilyne Payne, Mellisandre, Berric Dondarrion, and the Mountain.  All the rest on the list are already dead.

I don't think she kills another person on her list.   

[brewcity77]

I'd put Arya down for another two on her list. Loved how Sansa handled Littlefinger. My only disappointment was thinking of Ned and how the person that passes the sentence should swing the blade.

The Ice Dragon was badass. Rendered the wall irrelevant. The Night King's army has full access to the south. They don't need to take down any more keeps.

The summit was too drawn out, especially if Tyrion didn't offer anything for Cersei's false pledge. Here's hoping we see Winds of Winter before the new year.