Game of Thrones fans here?

[MUBurrow]

I don't think anyone has said 'you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling.' Rather, I'm saying it's nitpicking and inconsistent to eagerly accept some fantastical elements of a story while railing other minor details over their supposed lack of realism.

But setting aside the argument over what is and isn't acceptable suspension of disbelief in a fantasy story, some of the plot elements being called unrealistic/incredible simply are not.
As pointed out above, it's not unrealistic in the GoT universe to deploy ravens to get a message to Daenerys from beyond the wall within an acceptable 48-hour (roughly) time frame.
It's not unrealistic that the White Walkers would possess and be capable of using a magical spear that could take down a dragon. They're magical beings that have been around for 12,000 years and been plotting an attack for millennia. Certainly they're aware of dragons' place in the world and would have prepared for them.
It's entirely within the narrative that the wights follow the commands of the White Walkers, and that would include commands to drag a dragon out of a frozen lake with chains (though it is fair to question where the chains came from ... Hardhome, perhaps?).

so, even setting aside a debate over suspension of disbelief, some of the complaints when scrutinized just don't hold up.

Totally on board with this. Particularly the parts addressing non-timeline complaints. I shouldn't have been so lazy and should have edited my post.

And re the chains - I'm outside my expertise on this, but it didn't really bother me because I thought there were a lot of settlements well north of the wall - human and otherwise - over the years that could have had ironworks and could have produced those?

[jesmu84]

Here's a good reflection on my POV following the last episode:

http://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/game-of-thrones-episode-6-recap-daenerys-ex-machina

Game of Thrones has also been a fantasy show, but not reallllly. It was more of a show about the complex web of politics and relationships within Westeros. Things like magic and the supernatural were occasionally sprinkled in to spice it up, but there were stretches, sometimes weeks long, where Game of Thrones could have just as easily been set in 1400’s Scotland as it could have been in Westeros if the names were less bizarre and people less attractive.

Now, Game of Thrones is a full-blown fantasy show. Dragons, White Walkers, Bran Stark, concepts like predestination, God, magic, they’re all going to not just be elements in the show. They’re going to be the driving force. The emphasis on the realism/fantasy blend has completely flipped. If you’re someone who grew up loving Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, The Eragon series or any other fantasy novel, this is all going to be very familiar and welcome to you. But for the people who have been justifying their Game of Thrones fandam with “Yeah it’s about ice zombies and dragons but NOT REALLY, it isn’t like all that other nerd crap” you might find yourself not liking the show as much. I don’t know how much of the Game of Thrones audience is going to lose a little bit of interest in the show now that’s fantasy instead of historical fiction about a world which doesn’t exist (there’s a subtle difference). Certainly not enough to make anyone stop watching, especially with only a season left. But the reaction of the American pop culture audience being forced to embrace nerd-wet-dream straight-cut unfiltered fantasy is going to be fascinating.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Here's a good reflection on my POV following the last episode:

http://www.barstoolsports.com/newyork/game-of-thrones-episode-6-recap-daenerys-ex-machina

Thanks for sharing. 

One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself. 

[mu03eng]

Thanks for sharing. 

One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.

[forgetful]

What's  the airspeed velocity of an unladen raven?

Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.
This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.

Anyhow ... here's a solid argument for why it's all possible:

When the new episode drops tomorrow, I'm anticipating that there's gonna be a fair bit of bitching and moaning about how quickly Gendry relayed the Just Ice League's message to Dany. Like a lot of people in this sub, I think that too many showwatchers have a pretty fragile ability to suspend disbelief, but I thought I'd offer a semi-plausible rationalization anyway:

    The whole concept of messenger ravens is fantastical. To my knowledge, the only widespread "avian messenger systems" used homing pigeons because of their unique ability to navigate with the Earth's magnetic field. Ravens are smart birds, but they're nonmigratory. The sheer size of the maesters' raven network is also preposterously large and complex for a medieval society. In other words, we're already far beyond the realm of realism before anything involving this specific message.

    On this map it appears that the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone is 1800-2000 miles, about the same distance as Seattle to Chicago. From my 5 minutes of internet research, it seems like this scale is based entirely on a single description of the Wall as being 100 leagues long, and one statement from GRRM that 1 league = 3 miles. GRRM has mentioned that he regrets making the Wall so large, so I'm gonna call this an exaggeration and cut all the distances in half (also because my math doesn't work otherwise).

    The Wikipedia article on homing pigeons claims that the top speed of a pigeon over short distances is 90 mph and 50 mph for moderate distances. 900-1000 miles is pushing the limits of how far pigeons can travel (certainly over one day) but idgaf because this world already has dragons and ice zombies, so we're gonna make this hypothetical messenger bird a super raven that can cruise at 90 mph forever.

    I can't find the post, but yesterday someone noted that one of the first landscape shots in the episode is at the same location that Jon & Co. lay the ambush to capture a wight. It's obviously just a filming shortcut because HBO doesn't have infinite money to scout locations in the Icelandic wilderness (but some kneelers are probably calling it a unnatural carnal knowledge-up that breaks their immersion). For our purposes, it's very convenient to presume that they were walking in circles on the zombie hunt, and so we'll say that Gendry only had to run 26.2 miles back to the Wall. The fastest marathon time is about 2 hours, but we'll cut Gendry some slack since he was wearing some pretty bulky clothes and say it took him 3 hours.

What can we conclude from all this ironclad evidence?

Gendry's marathon: 3 hours

Super raven's 900-mile flight to Dragonstone: 10 hours

Dany getting her crap together/arguing with Tyrion: 1 hour

Dragon-flight back to zombie island: 10 hours

Therefore, if you squint your eyes (and remember that we're talking about a sword-and-sorcery TV show and not a Ken Burns documentary), the whole sequence took 24 hours. This comports with the Just Ice League's overnight standoff with the Army of the Dead.


Even if you take away some of this person's favorable assumptions, it can still realistically be accomplished in some 48 hours or so, which fits fine with the narrative (and nothing close to a full week).

I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand.  First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can.  Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds.  Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field. 

None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc.  Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself).  So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed. 

Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing.  According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down.  That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina.  It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created. 

This episode was pure fan-service.  Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy.  Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world.  And a gross overuse of deus ex machina. 

From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool.  From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen.  They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Honest question, is it ever discussed in the books or show how long it takes Ravens to get from one place or another? It always seemed like it is a lot quicker than one would think. Though this was obviously an extreme example.

I have contented myself with the belief that the standoff was a couple of days and this was actually a trap by the Night King to get himself a dragon. We already know he has some magical ability of foresight given his ability to "see" Bran when he is spying. So if he knew the dragons would come to rescue John it would make sense that he would wait them out.

[MU82]

And questioning the spear-throwing capabilities of a 12,000-year-old zombie king with magical powers.
Like, him being created by magical children wielding a magical dagger and then surviving many millennia in the wilderness while turning the dead into a zombie army is totally acceptable, but NO WAY could he be skilled at throwing a magical spear. That's just not credible.

Made me chuckle!

[Pakuni]

I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand.  First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can.  Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds.  Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field. 

None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc.  Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself).  So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed. 

Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing.  According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down.  That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina.  It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created. 

This episode was pure fan-service.  Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy.  Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world.  And a gross overuse of deus ex machina. 

From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool.  From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen.  They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.

A class of film students didn't care for it? Check and mate.

Seriously, you're completely entitled to dislike the episode for whatever reason you wish.
But your argument that the plot was "completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created" is  false, and you've provided nothing to support it.

Your main gripe seems to be with the raven.
But contrary to what you say, a normal carrier pigeon in our world could deliver a message the distance from the Wall to Dragonstone in about 48 hours. Far shorter than the week you claim. To suggest that having a raven (built up in the show and books as a sort of a super carrier bird)  travel at the rate as a normal carrier pigeon or even faster is somehow a betrayal of the world that was created doesn't hold water.
The timeline is further supported by the freezing of the lake. While we don't know the exact temperatures, it's safe to say it's going to take some time - several days, at least - for a lake to freeze solid enough for an army of the undead to walk across it - especially in weather conditions that it was possible for the humans to survive in for some period. Again, well within a credible timeline for the message to get to Dragonstone.

Your machine gun analogy, with all due respect, is a terrible one. Nothing that occurred in last night's episode introduced an heretofore unknown element or character into the story, or significantly changed any known element or character in the story.
I'm not even sure it's fair to claim deus ex machina in some of these situations (at least if you're trying to use the phrase correctly). Everything was, if not foreshadowed, well within the narrative.

Again, feel free to dislike the episode. But some of your specific criticisms are off.

[forgetful]

A class of film students didn't care for it? Check and mate.

Not the film students, the world expert professors who do this for a living.

Also, I wholeheartedly disagree on the ravens.  Frankly, there is nothing in GRRM cannon or real-life science/biology to suggest what occurred time wise in the last episode.

Regarding deus ex machina.  The last episode was fraught with it:  Dany magically showing up just in time, in unnatural time frames, at the exact right place (note, Gendry didn't know where they were and there was a massive snowstorm...Dany and the dragons have never been north).  Benjen showing up at precisely the right time.  Magic dragon killing spears.  Massive chains that would take the army years to build, or even transport immediately available.  Not to mention they would have to swim down to wrap the chains around the dragon, and it has been well documented in canon that the wights cannot swim...cannot survive entering water...and on and on.

[Pakuni]

Also, I wholeheartedly disagree on the ravens.  Frankly, there is nothing in GRRM cannon or real-life science/biology to suggest what occurred time wise in the last episode.

From the Game of Thrones wiki:

Ravens are uncommonly intelligent animals that can be trained to serve as messengers. They can fly great distances at speed, and are used by the maesters of Westeros to pass messages between the castles and cities of the Seven Kingdoms. Through complex training methods, the maesters are able to send messages from almost any castle in Westeros to any other.
Maester Aemon says at one point that while doves or pigeons can be trained to carry messages, the maesters don't use them because ravens are larger and more clever: they have the physical strength to fly longer distances as well as the intellectual capacity to accurately remember the longer path they must take; they are also able to fend off attacks from hawks much better than smaller doves or pigeons can.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Ravens

As for real-life biology, real-life homing pigeons have been known to travel as much as 1,200 miles at average speeds of 50 mph and top speeds of 90 mph. Given that the ravens of of Westeros are considered superior, a journey such as in yesterday's episode is well within reason.

Regarding deus ex machina.  The last episode was fraught with it:  Dany magically showing up just in time, in unnatural time frames, at the exact right place (note, Gendry didn't know where they were and there was a massive snowstorm...Dany and the dragons have never been north).  Benjen showing up at precisely the right time.  Magic dragon killing spears.  Massive chains that would take the army years to build, or even transport immediately available.  Not to mention they would have to swim down to wrap the chains around the dragon, and it has been well documented in canon that the wights cannot swim...cannot survive entering water...and on and on.

Something appearing just in the nick of time is not deus ex machina. It also has to be something unforseen or unexpected. Danys appearing was far from unforseen or unexpected. We saw her leave Dragonstone to go there. You've complained that it was too predictable, in fact. A well-foreshadowed event is by definition not deus ex machina.
Benjen lives beyond the wall, tracks White Walkers and has a history in both the TV show and books of showing up to rescue people from them (Bran on the show/Sam and Gilly in the books). Again, not deus ex machina.
If the Night King's spear is deus ex machina in your understanding, so is virtually any element not given the Chekov's gun treatment.
The chains I'll agree are questionable - and a wholly minor plot point - but they're explainable. As TAMU has said, and others believe, the Night's King laid a trap to get a dragon. If that's true, it also makes sense that he would make preparations for it.
But if the chain are really so bothersome they dampen your enjoyment of the episode, I'm not sure what to say to that. 

[warriorchick]

Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!

[JWags85]

Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!

The original complaints weren't fun sucking.  I said it was a great episode action wise but I feel the writing has gotten sloppy and formulaic.  Part of the reason GoT has gotten enormous is cause its anything but.  The arguments over specific points like raven speed or chain availability is tedious, I will fully admit that.  But taking an episode as a whole and expressing some minor dissatisfation is fair.  Especially when I saw plenty of "OH MY GOD, TOP 3 GAME OF THRONES EPISODE EASILY"...when this is a series that has some incredible pieces of television in it.

Sorry, MOAR DRAGONS, RIP VISERION.  DANY AND JON ARE RELATIONSHIP GOALZ 

[forgetful]

Wow, thanks for sucking all the fun out of this, guys!

I'm sorry for my part in that.  As penance if I win the powerball jackpot I will donate $50M to MU towards a new on campus arena, with the caveat that it be named the Warriordome, Warrior Arena or Warrior Fieldhouse.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Duh! It was dragging those heavy chains around that caused the white walker army to take so long to get there.

[chapman]

One small part that did bug me about the episode is Benjen could have got on the horse with Jon instead of sacrificing himself.

His plot armor was far too heavy.  Needs to get some of that Jon and Jaime stuff that floats and insulates.

I have contented myself with the belief that the standoff was a couple of days and this was actually a trap by the Night King to get himself a dragon. We already know he has some magical ability of foresight given his ability to "see" Bran when he is spying. So if he knew the dragons would come to rescue John it would make sense that he would wait them out.

I thought so too.  If we're talking fantastic abilities, I'd assume he (or any of the walkers) could put their hand on the water and cause it to freeze up rather than staring at their enemy waiting for hours or days.

[Hards Alumni]

I don't think you or the reddit user who wrote that article understand.  First the reddit user is wrong on ravens not being able to navigate the earth magnetic field, they certainly can.  Even there, the book references them as Crows, which are migratory birds.  Regardless they can measure the Earth's magnetic field. 

None of that is particularly important, though, as this is a fantasy world. Within that fantasy world there are rules etc.  Part of that is throughout the books and the show, sending message by Crows/Ravens is slow, as Westeros (Dorne-Wall) is ~3000 miles across (according to GRRM himself).  So from a story telling standpoint, the situation was poorly scripted and designed. 

Your rationale of "this is a fantasy world with dragons and zombies" means nothing.  According to that argument, they could just script in a machine gun that shoots dragon glass bullets in the next episode and mow everything down.  That would be idiotic and a ridiculous over-use of deus ex machina.  It is completely inconsistent with the rules and situations of the actual world that was created. 

This episode was pure fan-service.  Poorly scripted dialogue that makes certain fan groups happy.  Poor story line that was overly predictive and unrealistic in GRRM's world.  And a gross overuse of deus ex machina. 

From a visuals standpoint, the episode was cool.  From an actual scripting/directing standpoint, probably one of the poorest episodes I've seen.  They are actually discussing it in film class on my campus as things to avoid doing...that doesn't mean it doesn't make fans happy, but it is a lowpoint development wise for GOT...where they normally excel.

+100

[Hards Alumni]

The writing this season is sub par, and the entire story is rushed. 

You don't have to like this season just because its GOT.

You could literally drive a mac truck through some of these plot holes.

The entire IDEA behind GRRM's series to subvert fantasy tropes, yet this entire season is wrought with them.

[MU82]

The writing this season is sub par, and the entire story is rushed. 

You don't have to like this season just because its GOT.

You could literally drive a mac truck through some of these plot holes.

The entire IDEA behind GRRM's series to subvert fantasy tropes, yet this entire season is wrought with them.

I haven't read the books. The show is all I have.

I have mostly enjoyed this season. I thought the 3 episodes before this past one were fantastic. I thought this past one wasn't quite as good but it was still the best thing on my TV all week.

But what do I know? I'm just a dumb consumer who didn't read the books and doesn't know what's supposed to happen before it happens.

[CTWarrior]

I think this article does a pretty good job summarizing the plot issues.  Primarily, that the whole "catch an individual wight" is a ridiculously stupid hare-brained scheme with no logical reason to attempt or think will succeed for a myriad of reasons.  (Wights tend to hang out in groups of thousands, Cersei already has her own giant zombie and is not interested at all in problems outside her own walls so why would she care if you brought her one.  So besides the difficulty of the task, it is necessarily going to fail anyway and Tyrion, if he's 10% as smaert as he is supposed to be, would know that for sure)

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-eastwatch/#!

On one other note, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but I thought the Lannisters were planning to pay back the bank with the money taken from the Tyrells.  I assumed the dragon destroyed the wagon with the gold when Dany attacked the returning army.  Do they still have the money to pay back the bank?

[Hards Alumni]

I think this article does a pretty good job summarizing the plot issues.  Primarily, that the whole "catch an individual wight" is a ridiculously stupid hare-brained scheme with no logical reason to attempt or think will succeed for a myriad of reasons.  (Wights tend to hang out in groups of thousands, Cersei already has her own giant zombie and is not interested at all in problems outside her own walls so why would she care if you brought her one.  So besides the difficulty of the task, it is necessarily going to fail anyway and Tyrion, if he's 10% as smaert as he is supposed to be, would know that for sure)

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-eastwatch/#!

On one other note, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but I thought the Lannisters were planning to pay back the bank with the money taken from the Tyrells.  I assumed the dragon destroyed the wagon with the gold when Dany attacked the returning army.  Do they still have the money to pay back the bank?

Right, and that is really the problem.

Did Sansa forget who Littlefinger is and what he does ALL THE TIME?  Did Arya totally forget her past where she served Tywin Lannister wine as his cupbearer?  How did Tyrion go from the smartest guy in the books to being wrong about pretty much everything?  Catch a wight is a stupid plot on its face.  Why not just find a criminal and execute him... toss him in a cell and wait for him to turn?  Why doesn't Drogon turn his head and nuke the Night's King with Dragonfire after he sees Viserion get hit...  better yet, why do none of the dragons nuke the Night's King?  Why don't our heroes chop the ice around them to prevent the wights from just waiting for it to freeze?  This was just off the top of my head this morning.

I can totally forgive the time travelling since its a TV show and the story must move forward, but there are just so many logical inconsistencies that are very off putting.

And the gold had already arrived in King's Landing.  I think either Jamie or Randyll Tarly mentions it in the episode that the battle took place.

[brewcity77]

Tarly told Jamie all the gold was safely behind the walls of King's Landing.

[CTWarrior]

Tarly told Jamie all the gold was safely behind the walls of King's Landing.

Thanks, I obviously missed that.

[Jockey]

Right, and that is really the problem.

Did Sansa forget who Littlefinger is and what he does ALL THE TIME? 
Catch a wight is a stupid plot on its face.  Why not just find a criminal and execute him... toss him in a cell and wait for him to turn?  Why doesn't Drogon turn his head and nuke the Night's King with Dragonfire after he sees Viserion get hit...  better yet, why do none of the dragons nuke the Night's King? 

Littlefinger has been an advisor to Sansa. She does not see all of the devious stuff that we do while watching.

This isn't The Walking Dead - everyone who dies does not "turn".

I, too wondered why the dragons didn't nuke him.

[Hards Alumni]

Littlefinger has been an advisor to Sansa. She does not see all of the devious stuff that we do while watching.

This isn't The Walking Dead - everyone who dies does not "turn".

I, too wondered why the dragons didn't nuke him.

No, Sansa has been showing LF that she is wise to the game.  She has been trained for it every season, and for her to become so apparently stupid to his machinations this season is against her character development.

No, not everyone turns, but most people around the wall and North of it do turn.  The wights that attack Jeor Mormont back in S1 turned while in Castle Black.  It would follow logic that the army of the dead wants as many wights as possible. 

[Pakuni]

No, Sansa has been showing LF that she is wise to the game.  She has been trained for it every season, and for her to become so apparently stupid to his machinations this season is against her character development.

It's pretty obvious that Arya, quite likely with Sansa, is setting up Littlefinger.

No, not everyone turns, but most people around the wall and North of it do turn.  The wights that attack Jeor Mormont back in S1 turned while in Castle Black.  It would follow logic that the army of the dead wants as many wights as possible.

The wights that attacked Jeor Mormont were members of the Nght's Watch killed beyond the wall and then returned to Castle Black. So, becoming a wight seems to at the very least require being killed beyond the wall, and almost certainly by another wight or a walker. I don't recall any of the people killed at Craster's Keep or Battle of Castle Black turning into wights. That being the case, executing a prisoner and waiting for him to turn into a wight seems an impossibility.
(p.s. Going to capture a wight was a terrible idea ... but GoT is full of people acting on terrible ideas. Sort of a central theme of the stories, no?)