Game of Thrones fans here?

[CreightonWarrior]

My only concern is if Cersei is a strong enough villain to hold up the last few episodes but I have a feeling she won't last that long.

[CreightonWarrior]

The problem is we are then led to believe Bran spent the entire battle controlling a few ravens. That seems unlikely when he could've been doing so much more.

I think we'll find out more from him later but perhaps he already knew how this was going down (he almost had a smirk on his face when NK approached) so he was busy doing other things. I also wouldn't have put it passed him to be goading NK to the tree using the ravens.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/29/18522174/r-i-p-night-king-we-wish-we-learned-your-secrets

I knew I had seen that knife drop move before. Good catch

[MUBurrow]

I may be proven wrong, but I'd never bought the "Bran is the Night King" theory, and I'm buying it even less after last night's episode.
Also, given that the Night King was created involuntarily by the Children of the Forest, is the theory that Bran will go sacrifice himself to the Children (if any remain)? Why would he do that?

Last night increased my belief that GRR Martin has no pages, and that Benioff and Weiss are pissing in the wind and felt written into a corner on the whole NK arc. Accordingly, I don't think we'll see the NK or wights again, other than maybe some sort of disconnected glowing blue eyes cliffhanger at the end of the last ep (especially in light of the prequel series forgetful referenced).

I've tried to reconcile how dissatisfied I feel and felt immediately after last night's episode vs '82's comments, and those by many others I know, that they feel good about how the NK's storyline wrapped up. And I think the difference is that if you're a "show only" person, the NK and wights are a device. They're an instrument for bringing things out of the other characters, and the exposition of their story (and consistency thereof) is not that important. They're essentially zombies who were brought to life by the Children of the Forest, got out of control, and needed to be stopped. So a Clue-like "Arya, under the weirwood tree, with Littlefinger's dagger" ending is sufficient because you only really cared about Arya anyway. 

But if you're a books/online theory person, the NK was a character who represented a lot of what makes the book's universe richer than the TV show's - and accordingly a lot of expectation was heaped onto him. From that perspective, last night was very dissatisfying, and I think there's a great argument to be had about whether that's fair or unfair to Benioff and Weiss, given the chasm between what the NK actually did on the show vs what those actions were expanded to mean by people with broader awareness of the universe as constructed in the books.

[Pakuni]

I think we'll find out more from him later but perhaps he already knew how this was going down (he almost had a smirk on his face when NK approached) so he was busy doing other things. I also wouldn't have put it passed him to be goading NK to the tree using the ravens.

Yes, I think that's exactly what he was doing. He laid a trap for the NK to saunter into.

[MUBurrow]

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/29/18522174/r-i-p-night-king-we-wish-we-learned-your-secrets

I just got around to reading this, and it summarizes my feelings really well. Thanks for sharing Hards.

[Pakuni]

But if you're a books/online theory person, the NK was a character who represented a lot of what makes the book's universe richer than the TV show's - and accordingly a lot of expectation was heaped onto him. From that perspective, last night was very dissatisfying, and I think there's a great argument to be had about whether that's fair or unfair to Benioff and Weiss, given the chasm between what the NK actually did on the show vs what those actions were expanded to mean by people with broader awareness of the universe as constructed in the books.

I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.

Edit: not that it's happening here, but Game of Thrones may be the only series in history that gets criticized by its fans for not killing off enough of their favorite characters.

[Galway Eagle]

Some forums reporting that certain night king secrets couldn't be told because of spin off series

[MUBurrow]

I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.

I definitely think there is a lot of truth to this, and I think a fun debate is whether that is fair in this particular case.  Ultimately, to forgetful's earlier point, the "I'm just here for the show" crowd is definitely a vast majority of the viewership at this point, and I have no problem ceding the field to that.  If anything, I probably should have just steered harder into that earlier.  And the fact that GRR Martin himself clearly has no problem letting Benioff and Weiss take on the hardest part of his storytelling (a cohesive conclusion that does justice to all the loose ends) helps further reduce what little remaining amounts of righteous indignation I'd otherwise feel. GRRM is a great world builder, but he clearly doesn't have a consistent narrative left to weave that would bring the books to satisfying conclusion, so asking the HBO show to do it for me is probably unfair. I do think there's a degree to which taking on an adaptation of a story as ambitious as this entitles consumers of the source material to a certain degree of fidelity, though, and I get why really hardcore fans of A Song of Ice and Fire would feel a bit bait and switched - though again, those feelings would be a lot more valid of GRRM would actually either finish the damn books or at least take a heavier hand once the show got past the last published book.

[Galway Eagle]

Curious about the Danny and Jon interaction before the battle, seemed to sense some hostility.



Here's this weeks episode summary

[Hards Alumni]

I hope you don't take this as a slight, but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism of GoT over the years comes not so much from the story the series is telling, but the story it's not telling. And a lot of that comes from people who've spun theories online about where they think the story is going or should go, and then are critical because the TV series isn't telling the story they want to see, i.e. fan service to that (relatively) minority group of viewers.

Edit: not that it's happening here, but Game of Thrones may be the only series in history that gets criticized by its fans for not killing off enough of their favorite characters.

Maybe.  Here is the rub with that.  The series got popular because it wasn't a fan service show.  It killed popular characters, and did it in a brutal way.  Fast forward to now, main characters are completely immune.  Continuity, and logic have taken a back seat to fan service and fairy tale endings.

GOT is popular because of what GRRM created, and now D&D have had years to finish what GRRM started, and all they could come up with was fan fiction fairy tale tropes?  I'm sorry, but did you like how Lost went down?  Perhaps you liked the ending of Dexter?

8 seasons of buildup of how scary the NK is, and how he seemed to be a step ahead of the living, and he gets nicked by ninja Arya out of nowhere?  Also, the NK is basically a head vampire?  AND YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT?  What show are you watching?  Its utter garbage, and is pandering to stupid people who can't think critically.

So many plot lines seemed to have been forgotten or dismissed so we can see a big battle and simplistic wraps ups.  What a tragic waste of a great story.

Also, Burrow, I think you're right.  Martin has written himself into such a hole that he is just as lost.  I have serious doubts that we ever get a finale to the book series.

Edit: I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, Pakuni, but towards people in general that enjoyed that mess of an episode.

[Pakuni]

What show are you watching?  Its utter garbage, and is pandering to stupid people who can't think critically.


Edit: I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, Pakuni, but towards people in general that enjoyed that mess of an episode.

You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion.
But the whole "Anyone who enjoyed something I didn't enjoy is stupid" bit is lame.
It's OK for people to see the same piece of art and have different reactions to it. Your opinion of a TV show doesn't make you smart, and definitely not smarter than anyone else.

Oh, and I was fine with how Lost ended. In fact, I see a ton of parallels to the criticisms of GoT and Lost. Basically, some viewers are BIG MAD that the writers didn't give them the ending they wanted and failed to thoroughly explain every minute plot detail. Which is ironic given your claim that anyone who disagrees with your take is incapable of critical thought.

Dexter ended poorly.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

8 seasons of buildup of how scary the NK is, and how he seemed to be a step ahead of the living, and he gets nicked by ninja Arya out of nowhere?  Also, the NK is basically a head vampire?  AND YOU'RE OKAY WITH THAT?  What show are you watching?  Its utter garbage, and is pandering to stupid people who can't think critically.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion.
But the whole "Anyone who enjoyed something I didn't enjoy is stupid" bit is lame.
It's OK for people to see the same piece of art and have different reactions to it. Your opinion of a TV show doesn't make you smart, and definitely not smarter than anyone else.

Oh, and I was fine with how Lost ended. In fact, I see a ton of parallels to the criticisms of GoT and Lost. Basically, some viewers are BIG MAD that the writers didn't give them the ending they wanted and failed to thoroughly explain every minute plot detail. Which is ironic given your claim that anyone who disagrees with your take is incapable of critical thought.

Dexter ended poorly.

Off-topic but would love if they resurrected Dexter for one more season to try to give it a more satisfying resolution. 

[#UnleashSean]

Please keep Endgame talk to the other thread.

Gah! His post got deleted but your quote of his lived on and ruined end game for me!

Luckily I don't care much but delete for others who might.

[#UnleashSean]

But is the army of the dead completely gone?

[Jockey]

You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion.
But the whole "Anyone who enjoyed something I didn't enjoy is stupid" bit is lame.
It's OK for people to see the same piece of art and have different reactions to it. Your opinion of a TV show doesn't make you smart, and definitely not smarter than anyone else.

Oh, and I was fine with how Lost ended. In fact, I see a ton of parallels to the criticisms of GoT and Lost. Basically, some viewers are BIG MAD that the writers didn't give them the ending they wanted and failed to thoroughly explain every minute plot detail. Which is ironic given your claim that anyone who disagrees with your take is incapable of critical thought.

Dexter ended poorly.

Spot on. First off, some are never satisfied no matter what. They have an outcome in their own mind and anything that doesn't match up means the show is garbage.

Second, their is such a sprawl to the entire series that there is no way every thread can be wrapped up to perfection. So many storylines - going back thousands of years. So many houses. So many characters. There simply is no perfect ending.

Last night was not a huge surprise. We all knew the NK was going to utterly dominate in the battle. And we all knew that somehow he was going to be defeated. I had little doubt that it would be Arya - otherwise most of her storyline would have made no sense.

Now waiting for the personal attack from Hards - since he already called me (and many others) stupid. At least I now know that I am unable to think critically

[CreightonWarrior]

Gah! His post got deleted but your quote of his lived on and ruined end game for me!

Luckily I don't care much but delete for others who might.

Good call, fixed.

[Cheeks]

Why did Arya scream in the attack....the term is silent assassin, not screaming assassin.


I think we will see the dead appear again in the last episode as they appeared in the first....whether a new spawn or something completely different, but this isn't over.

[Galway Eagle]

Why did Arya scream in the attack....the term is silent assassin, not screaming assassin.


I think we will see the dead appear again in the last episode as they appeared in the first....whether a new spawn or something completely different, but this isn't over.

Umm Jon and the Mountain are still around so the dead are still around.

[Cheeks]

Umm Jon and the Mountain are still around so the dead are still around.

True, but I think you know what I mean.  Blue eyes

[Coleman]

Well, they spent an entire season showing her being trained as an elite assassin capable to slipping past any defense to kill an intended target. Should we be so surprised the slipped past some distracted wights?

If that is the case fine, but then show us what she did. To spend 80 minutes on an episode and gloss over something so important is stupid.

[JWags85]

Viewing party......eruption


https://twitter.com/kitneka/status/1122857108762873859

Oh you got internet'd bro.  Thats a video from England during the 2016 Euros. They've been superimposing videos for memes into it for almost 3 years.

Many of my issues were explained by others here.  I just particularly hated the main "warriors".  Jamie, Brienne, Tormund, etc... being absolutely OVERRUN by the wights for a few hours and somehow surviving.  Hell, even Sam's worthless azz survived.  That was just the kind of lazy storytelling you expect out of a cliche war movie, not ruthless GoT.

Also interesting, though not critical to the plot, one of the only times we've ever truly seen Varys show emotion or fear.  He was clearly terrified.

[Coleman]

Last night increased my belief that GRR Martin has no pages, and that Benioff and Weiss are pissing in the wind and felt written into a corner on the whole NK arc. Accordingly, I don't think we'll see the NK or wights again, other than maybe some sort of disconnected glowing blue eyes cliffhanger at the end of the last ep (especially in light of the prequel series forgetful referenced).

I've tried to reconcile how dissatisfied I feel and felt immediately after last night's episode vs '82's comments, and those by many others I know, that they feel good about how the NK's storyline wrapped up. And I think the difference is that if you're a "show only" person, the NK and wights are a device. They're an instrument for bringing things out of the other characters, and the exposition of their story (and consistency thereof) is not that important. They're essentially zombies who were brought to life by the Children of the Forest, got out of control, and needed to be stopped. So a Clue-like "Arya, under the weirwood tree, with Littlefinger's dagger" ending is sufficient because you only really cared about Arya anyway. 

But if you're a books/online theory person, the NK was a character who represented a lot of what makes the book's universe richer than the TV show's - and accordingly a lot of expectation was heaped onto him. From that perspective, last night was very dissatisfying, and I think there's a great argument to be had about whether that's fair or unfair to Benioff and Weiss, given the chasm between what the NK actually did on the show vs what those actions were expanded to mean by people with broader awareness of the universe as constructed in the books.

Well said. And you are probably right on books vs. show. Although I've only read the first book and I still thought it was pretty dissatisfying.

[Hards Alumni]

Spot on. First off, some are never satisfied no matter what. They have an outcome in their own mind and anything that doesn't match up means the show is garbage.

Second, their is such a sprawl to the entire series that there is no way every thread can be wrapped up to perfection. So many storylines - going back thousands of years. So many houses. So many characters. There simply is no perfect ending.

Last night was not a huge surprise. We all knew the NK was going to utterly dominate in the battle. And we all knew that somehow he was going to be defeated. I had little doubt that it would be Arya - otherwise most of her storyline would have made no sense.

Now waiting for the personal attack from Hards - since he already called me (and many others) stupid. At least I now know that I am unable to think critically

I didn't mean it as a personal attack on anyone.

So, it had to be Arya? If her story mattered, why did they bother with the ENTIRE faceless man, face stealing part?  Why didn't she just find a Bravosi water dancer like Syrio to complete her training?  Wouldn't something more interesting (say her stealing the face of a wight, and then stabbing the NK) be a bit more of a call back to her story arc in Essos?  Instead, we got a minor callback to her sparring with Brienne.  Like, that's neat, but it ignores so much of her character.

Why couldn't it be Jon that kills the NK?  That seemed like the most obvious outcome.  They have been going at it for seasons now.  Why isn't Dany a better foil to the NK?  She is fire, and he is ice. 

I didn't have any expectations last night going in but to be wowed.  And I was, wowed.  Just not with the lack luster story telling.  Once Jorah rode back from the Dothraki death scene I was worried.  When Greyworm was standing at the front of the assault and then somehow survived, I shook my head.  And when we got Lyanna Mormont's death I knew what we were getting from here on out was lazy fan fic.

I'm not upset that every plot didn't get wrapped up, after all, there are still three episodes left.  But at the same time, I doubt there was any point to some of the plots at all... we are just supposed to accept them as filler?  That's fine, but then why write them in at all?   I didn't say I was smarter than anyone, or that they were dumb for enjoying something that I didn't.  I said they lacked critical thinking.  I'm just surprised that after all the quality we got for years, that people are okay with what happened.