MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: jesmu84 on August 30, 2018, 12:00:01 PM
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No punishment for UNC on their academic issues.
No punishment for Michigan State for Larry Nassar.
No punishment, yet, for anyone outside of Louisville/Pintino on the FBI investigation.
No punishment, yet, for OSU for Meyer.
What does it take to get punished these days? Is all the illegal stuff becoming the "norm" and the NCAA lets it go?
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No punishment for UNC on their academic issues.
No punishment for Michigan State for Larry Nassar.
No punishment, yet, for anyone outside of Louisville/Pintino on the FBI investigation.
No punishment, yet, for OSU for Meyer.
What does it take to get punished these days? Is all the illegal stuff becoming the "norm" and the NCAA lets it go?
They way overshot the mark on the PSU stuff and now they are very very reluctant to tread in the criminal space when it comes to their sports programs.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/ready-just-brokemichigan-state-is-cleared-by-the-ncaa-which-continues-to-be-great-at-being-inconsistent
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They way overshot the mark on the PSU stuff and now they are very very reluctant to tread in the criminal space when it comes to their sports programs.
I just don't get how/why they bring a punishment for a kid getting some tickets to a game or having too much pasta, but harboring a serial rapist is nothing.
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Personally, I think it's because there are too many lawyers on the NCAA infractions committee that the NCAA would prefer to simply let a case go rather than be slapped with a lawsuit for trying to enforce its own rules.
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I just don't get how/why they bring a punishment for a kid getting some tickets to a game or having too much pasta, but harboring a serial rapist is nothing.
The distinction is (at least in the NCAA's mind) is that cultural/criminal is not their domain....things like eligibility and amateurism are. I'm not saying that's the way I'd suggest approaching it because I think the NCAA should be about shaping the whole person but that's not what their charter is. Further, the NCAA is not some oversight group, it is the inmates running the asylum they get their "power" and funding from the member institutions themselves so there is a hesitance to bite the hand that feeds you.
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No punishment for UNC on their academic issues.
No punishment for Michigan State for Larry Nassar.
No punishment, yet, for anyone outside of Louisville/Pintino on the FBI investigation.
No punishment, yet, for OSU for Meyer.
What does it take to get punished these days? Is all the illegal stuff becoming the "norm" and the NCAA lets it go?
All of those investigations should have brought serious punishments except the Urban Meyer one.
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All of those investigations should have brought serious punishments except the Urban Meyer one.
Why not the Urban Meyer one?
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The NCAA has been a giant joke for awhile now. For one, they know punishing member bodies, particularly the successful money making ones, takes dollars away from them in the end. When people turn on the NCAA tournament in March, more eyeballs are on tv sets when the bigger schools are competing. Its just the reality. So they are willing to bend over backwards to clear those schools(see UNC) so that when tv contracts are up, they can point to higher viewership. Secondly, there is always the implied threat from the bigger schools to just leave the NCAA entirely and form their own tournament if the NCAA tries to get too aggressive. The bigger schools have already done that with football.
In reality, they try to do what they can by punishing some athletes here or there to show the "relevance". The days of them being an effective form of governance are over and at this point, they're just try to hang on for dear life.
As a side note, Michigan State should be more worried the state special prosecutor and the Feds looking into Larry Nassar than the toothless NCAA.
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Time to issue the death penalty to some school like Prairie View A&M for giving some kid one too many Cokes on a visit...so the NCAA can show it means business!
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All of those investigations should have brought serious punishments except the Urban Meyer one.
On what basis? The NCAA overplayed their hand with Penn State, essentially penalizing them for something that wasn't in violation of their rules. They would have to do the same in all of those cases except the Louisville one. (With that one, the NCAA is clearly waiting for the FBI to finish their work. It's not closed.)
Also just remember that the power schools really don't want the NCAA to be that powerful. It is a membership organization.
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On what basis? The NCAA overplayed their hand with Penn State, essentially penalizing them for something that wasn't in violation of their rules. They would have to do the same in all of those cases except the Louisville one. (With that one, the NCAA is clearly waiting for the FBI to finish their work. It's not closed.)
Also just remember that the power schools really don't want the NCAA to be that powerful. It is a membership organization.
You are right, but come on, how does MSU get by unscathed when girls were being raped and molested on their campus by an employee?!?
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Why not the Urban Meyer one?
I think if we are going to hold Urbie accountable for what an employee does after hours, then everyone should be held accountable.. So whoever was the coach, GM, owner of the Ravens when Ray Rice beat up his wife on camera in the elevator should also be held accountable.
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You are right, but come on, how does MSU get by unscathed when girls were being raped and molested on their campus by an employee?!?
I mean, they are paying victims a half a billion dollars. So it's hard for me to say they are "unscathed."
I also think accreditation agencies need to look harder at this stuff, especially when student safety is at issue.
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So what's the FBI waiting for? They made their big splash announcement at the beginning of the season last year. Will they repeat that splash this year now that they had time to offer plea deals for the first round of defendants to cooperate?
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The distinction is (at least in the NCAA's mind) is that cultural/criminal is not their domain....things like eligibility and amateurism are. I'm not saying that's the way I'd suggest approaching it because I think the NCAA should be about shaping the whole person but that's not what their charter is. Further, the NCAA is not some oversight group, it is the inmates running the asylum they get their "power" and funding from the member institutions themselves so there is a hesitance to bite the hand that feeds you.
I suppose that's true. And it makes their job easier.
But then why go down the road of "institutional control" at all?
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I mean, they are paying victims a half a billion dollars. So it's hard for me to say they are "unscathed."
I also think accreditation agencies need to look harder at this stuff, especially when student safety is at issue.
Good point.
And I agree with you that accreditation agencies should take this stuff into consideration.
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I think if we are going to hold Urbie accountable for what an employee does after hours, then everyone should be held accountable.. So whoever was the coach, GM, owner of the Ravens when Ray Rice beat up his wife on camera in the elevator should also be held accountable.
It's what the NCAA did with the Penn State situation. Why should OSU be different?
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I think if we are going to hold Urbie accountable for what an employee does after hours, then everyone should be held accountable.. So whoever was the coach, GM, owner of the Ravens when Ray Rice beat up his wife on camera in the elevator should also be held accountable.
Gotcha. For me it's not holding him accountable for the actions of his employee, it's about his failure to report when he became aware of the behavior. At the time, federal law mandates that any university employee who becomes aware of an alleged act of interpersonal violence (sexual assault, dating violence, etc) just report to the university. If I had done what he did, I would have been fired no questions asked.
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If the NCAA wants to encourage more diligent oversight of athletic programs by member institutions, there has to be the prospect of serious punishment for not doing enough or looking the other way. That means hitting them where it hurts most: the bottom line.
Michigan State failed in its responsibilities to women student athletes. Athletes from the gymnastics, softball, volleyball, rowing and track and field programs accused MSU staff of dismissing their sexual abuse complaints against Nassar. The university's president and athletic director both resigned. And the NCAA saw nothing wrong with how things were handled?
With zero sanctions or penalties issued by the NCAA, the apparent message is that Michigan State runs a model athletic program. I'm not sure why the NCAA even bothered to launch an investigation in the first place -- other than to look like it's doing something (when it's actually doing nothing).
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The only way to get things like Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor, Tennesee, UNC, Ohio State, etc to stop is to punish their athletic teams. Frankly, that's the thing that the schools care about the most and will gladly sacrifice academics, money, and reputation to maintain them.
The NCAA is sidestepping and leaving these things to the Department of Education and accreditation boards. Well, Title IX is currently toothless and even when it had teeth, the Department of Education had never once used the teeth. UNC is never going to lose its accreditation over a scandal benefiting athletes and even if it did, they could get it through a different service.
Universities are taking hits to reputation and budgets through lawsuits....but strong athletics does far more for both reputation and the bottom line.
The only entity with the power to stop this on a national scale is the NCAA. But they have to decide that they want to stop it. I doubt they ever will.
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Should the NCAA actually try to call the bluff of some of the schools and see if they'll leave? I mean let's say they lose a couple true power schools I feel like there's enough schools to make it "next man up" no different than what happened with the Big East
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The only way to get things like Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor, Tennesee, UNC, Ohio State, etc to stop is to punish their athletic teams. Frankly, that's the thing that the schools care about the most and will gladly sacrifice academics, money, and reputation to maintain them.
Agreed. The NCAA is reticent to use the death penalty again, but the only measure that will work is to actually take those sports away for a time. As long as they can keep competing, there's no real teeth to their punishments.
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I think if we are going to hold Urbie accountable for what an employee does after hours, then everyone should be held accountable.. So whoever was the coach, GM, owner of the Ravens when Ray Rice beat up his wife on camera in the elevator should also be held accountable.
If they knew Rice was beating his wife and did nothing about it, they should be held responsible. I don't believe that was the case.
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MSU: President, gone. AD, gone. 1/2 billion dollars gone. They continue to pay the price. But, and here is the differentiation, these are criminal and civil matters, not NCAA related matters.
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Agreed. The NCAA is reticent to use the death penalty again, but the only measure that will work is to actually take those sports away for a time. As long as they can keep competing, there's no real teeth to their punishments.
Yeah but they can't really punish schools for things that aren't in violation of their rules. And the NCAA isn't going to be given increased authority by its own members.
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MSU: President, gone. AD, gone. 1/2 billion dollars gone. They continue to pay the price. But, and here is the differentiation, these are criminal and civil matters, not NCAA related matters.
And if they had to do it all over again, they would. Boards don't care if Presidents and ADs get fired and the 1/2 billion hurts but they'll get over it. The value athletics brings to the school every year more than covers it.
You're not wrong about it not being an NCAA matter, but it should be. Committing crimes to benefit athletic departments, the NCAA is the only ones who can stop it.
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When people turn on the NCAA tournament in March, more eyeballs are on tv sets when the bigger schools are competing. Its just the reality. So they are willing to bend over backwards to clear those schools(see UNC) so that when tv contracts are up, they can point to higher viewership. Secondly, there is always the implied threat from the bigger schools to just leave the NCAA entirely and form their own tournament if the NCAA tries to get too aggressive.
Disagree on several counts here. The NCAA, if memory serves, will receive a check for the tournament no matter what schools make it or what the ratings are. That money is guaranteed. Doesn't that contract go until the 2030's? Unless CBS or Turner are demanding the NCAA not punish those schools because those are the entities that see the advertising revenue, but that seems a reach.
The bigger schools are going to go where? If all that money is tied up with the NCAA from those networks, if the big schools break off to a different organization, new money will have to be found. Count me and so many others that do not want any part of a big schools only college tournament. No cinderellas, no excitement. Feels like a giant flop.
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And if they had to do it all over again, they would. Boards don't care if Presidents and ADs get fired and the 1/2 billion hurts but they'll get over it. The value athletics brings to the school every year more than covers it.
You're not wrong about it not being an NCAA matter, but it should be. Committing crimes to benefit athletic departments, the NCAA is the only ones who can stop it.
No. Federal legislation can stop it. The NCAA is a membership organization that will never be given that power by its own members.
You are expecting way too much from the NCAA.
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No. Federal legislation can stop it. The NCAA is a membership organization that will never be given that power by its own members.
You are expecting way too much from the NCAA.
How can federal legislation stop it?
I agree that I am expecting too much, but I do believe it is the only way that it will ever stop these kinds of things from happening.
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MSU: President, gone. AD, gone. 1/2 billion dollars gone. They continue to pay the price. But, and here is the differentiation, these are criminal and civil matters, not NCAA related matters.
The sad thing about this is the $500M will not affect athletics. Their budgets will likely go up, instead academic departments will have their budgets slashed, and faculty/staff will be forced to go without pay raises.
Greed is the problem.
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The sad thing about this is the $500M will not affect athletics. Their budgets will likely go up, instead academic departments will have their budgets slashed, and faculty/staff will be forced to go without pay raises.
Greed is the problem.
Faculty and staff are receiving pay increases, but dropped from 2.5% to 1.5%. Top administrators not increases at all.
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2018/msu-board-approves-first-ever-two-year-budget-with-tuition-rate-and-pay-freezes-clears-way-for-500m-litigation-settlement-increases-financial-aid-addresses-tenure-changes/
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UNC found an ingenious loophole, showing their bogus classes weren't for athletes only.
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How can federal legislation stop it?
I agree that I am expecting too much, but I do believe it is the only way that it will ever stop these kinds of things from happening.
The feds control tax exemption status and financial aid disbursement. They could very easily step in punish offending schools. But they won’t
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The feds control tax exemption status and financial aid disbursement. They could very easily step in punish offending schools. But they won’t
Exactly. Unless a university president goes on TV and says screw you DOE, we're not following any of your Title IX bullcrap. They will never use that option. Schools know this and will continue to look the other way when it benefits their athletic programs.
Only way to stop it is if the athletic programs themselves are directly sanctioned for their actions. The only entity with the power to do that is the NCAA. But you are right, they never will because the foxes are guarding the hen house.
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Faculty and staff are receiving pay increases, but dropped from 2.5% to 1.5%. Top administrators not increases at all.
https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2018/msu-board-approves-first-ever-two-year-budget-with-tuition-rate-and-pay-freezes-clears-way-for-500m-litigation-settlement-increases-financial-aid-addresses-tenure-changes/
Two things. So yes, Faculty and Staff (and academic deans) will suffer because of actions by the athletic department.
And I've seen this play out before. Administrators say they will freeze their salaries. Then at the end of the year they give themselves massive one time bonuses to compensate. Then at the end of the two years, they give themselves double digit raises for a few years to make up for the freeze. They win out big.
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NCAA drops the hammer on Kentucky. Don't see how the program can recover.
https://deadspin.com/ncaa-punishes-kentucky-soccer-players-for-pick-up-game-1828861785
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And if they had to do it all over again, they would. Boards don't care if Presidents and ADs get fired and the 1/2 billion hurts but they'll get over it. The value athletics brings to the school every year more than covers it.
You're not wrong about it not being an NCAA matter, but it should be. Committing crimes to benefit athletic departments, the NCAA is the only ones who can stop it.
Timeout, I'm as outraged about the stuff going on at the schools as the next, but I'm not sure how Larry Nassar, Jerry Sandusky, et al are committing crimes that benefit athletic departments. Here's the thing, any organization could be facing these types of issues and it's not about benefiting the organization it's about a fundamental inability or unwillingness to face the issue see church, catholic. MSU and PSU are different than say Baylor or Louisville, there is an important distinction that we are forgetting.
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Timeout, I'm as outraged about the stuff going on at the schools as the next, but I'm not sure how Larry Nassar, Jerry Sandusky, et al are committing crimes that benefit athletic departments. Here's the thing, any organization could be facing these types of issues and it's not about benefiting the organization it's about a fundamental inability or unwillingness to face the issue see church, catholic. MSU and PSU are different than say Baylor or Louisville, there is an important distinction that we are forgetting.
When I say they would do it all over again, I'm not talking about the crimes. The crimes don't benefit the athletic departments but the cover ups and the culture that allows them to happen do. Until the punishment hits them where it hurts, universities will continue to cover up things like this rather than address them.
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I just don't get how/why they bring a punishment for a kid getting some tickets to a game or having too much pasta, but harboring a serial rapist is nothing.
the schools impose those penalties, not the NCAA. The NCAA said the pasta thing was not a violation, it was all Oklahoma being idiots.
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NCAA drops the hammer on Kentucky. Don't see how the program can recover.
https://deadspin.com/ncaa-punishes-kentucky-soccer-players-for-pick-up-game-1828861785
the NCAA had no role in that, just as they had no role when Anderson got the suite tickets for the Brewers playoff game. Kentucky imposed the sanctions.
The NCAA only gets involved in handing out penalties when it comes to investigations after the schools themselves report major violations have or may have taken place. Nobody in Indy is levying penalties for impermissible practice activities involving a crap band.
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the NCAA had no role in that, just as they had no role when Anderson got the suite tickets for the Brewers playoff game. Kentucky imposed the sanctions.
The NCAA only gets involved in handing out penalties when it comes to investigations after the schools themselves report major violations have or may have taken place. Nobody in Indy is levying penalties for impermissible practice activities involving a crap band.
Well that's not what the article linked by Deadspin says.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/kentucky/2018/09/06/foo-fighters-soccer-game-kentucky-coaches-violates-rule/1174270002/
"Several UK soccer players will have to sit out two supervised team activities, such as a practice or meetings, after joining in a pickup soccer game with the Foo Fighters and UK coaches before a May 1 concert at Rupp Arena, the NCAA ruled."
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Well that's not what the article linked by Deadspin says.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/kentucky/2018/09/06/foo-fighters-soccer-game-kentucky-coaches-violates-rule/1174270002/
"Several UK soccer players will have to sit out two supervised team activities, such as a practice or meetings, after joining in a pickup soccer game with the Foo Fighters and UK coaches before a May 1 concert at Rupp Arena, the NCAA ruled."
No, the school levies the penalties and reports them to the NCAA. The NCAA will then accept the punishment or increase it. It was not the NCAA that suspended them, but UK. The key phrase here: "Kentucky self-reported the violation."
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No, the school levies the penalties and reports them to the NCAA. The NCAA will then accept the punishment or increase it. It was not the NCAA that suspended them, but UK. The key phrase here: "Kentucky self-reported the violation."
OK, so when they self-report the violation do they also report a recommended penalty as well? And then the NCAA says "yes" or "no?"
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Didn't know where else to put this new info:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-lawsuit-alleges-larry-nassar-drugged-raped-impregnated-teen-michigan-n908681?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
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Good rundown here of the FBI investigation and current outcomes (shocker: it's basically no results):
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/the-fbi-investigation-into-college-basketball-one-year-later
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OK, so when they self-report the violation do they also report a recommended penalty as well? And then the NCAA says "yes" or "no?"
Yes. The school says what they have decided and the NCAA will say "you need more" but rarely, if ever, would they say "you don't need to impose those specific punishments."
In this case, there was a violation. If the coaches hadn't been there it wouldn't have been one and UK knew that. There was a failure somewhere and sanctions were warranted.
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Good rundown here of the FBI investigation and current outcomes (shocker: it's basically no results):
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/the-fbi-investigation-into-college-basketball-one-year-later
I do not see it that way there are trials pending (somebody could decide to cooperate) plus investigation is ongoing.
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Jury selection for one of the trials was today. Saw this tweet from Jeff Borzello:
https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/1046817584929226752
Jeff Borzello
Verified account
@jeffborzello
Following Following @jeffborzello
More
Jurors were provided a list of names, companies and schools that could be brought up during trial (no details on relevance/pertinence to the case). Among the schools: Louisville, Kansas, NC State, Miami, Arizona, Oklahoma State, USC, Texas, Creighton, Oregon, LSU, DePaul.
Hadn't heard Creighton's name before. DePaul....they can't even cheat right
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The real issue for schools like Marquette is that the BCS rules college sports. Not just football. But the full range of inter-collegiate athletics.
65 schools are earning record revenues and will dictate the future course of college sports for decades.
The ADs at Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, UNC, and even Purdue don't give one thought to the Big East or the MAC. They don't need to.
I personally believe that the BCS won't leave the NCAA because the NCAA won't do anything to them. Power isn't fickle; it is dominant.
Michigan makes huge bank from every game at the Big House. But that's pocket change compared with the revenues generated for being on TV every Saturday then 1 Jan.
The BCS 65 dictate the agenda. Mark Emmert is subservient to Delany, Sankey, Swofford, and even Bowlsby. Anyone who thinks that Emmert will ever dare challenge Delany is a fool.
But if the lower 286 continue to stand in the way of the 65 I can see the BCS breaking off. But first, the 65 will marginalize the authority of the NCAA in small yet significant ways. Cream cheese will be spread on bagels. The Hoops season will begin after the BCS holiday bowls, limiting basketball to a single semester. The Enforcement Division will be further stripped of reach and punitive power. And student athletes will begin getting stipends.
Personally, I think Devin Bush, Rashan Gary, and Shea Patterson should get paid. They make a lot of money for Michigan. Should the star of the Central Michigan team get paid? What is his economic value to the college? The answer is very little.
If the NCAA's 286 junior members continue to mess with the BCS Wish List I can see the 65 breaking off. And there's not a damn thing the NCAA can do about it.
The real losers will be the Olympic sports at the 286. Notre Dame's women's sports will continue to thrive. So too will the hockey and lacrosse teams at the 65. But at what remains of the NCAA the ability to fund Olympic sports and meet Title IX requirements will be a challenge.
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The real issue for schools like Marquette is that the BCS rules college sports. Not just football. But the full range of inter-collegiate athletics.
65 schools are earning record revenues and will dictate the future course of college sports for decades.
The ADs at Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, UNC, and even Purdue don't give one thought to the Big East or the MAC. They don't need to.
I personally believe that the BCS won't leave the NCAA because the NCAA won't do anything to them. Power isn't fickle; it is dominant.
Michigan makes huge bank from every game at the Big House. But that's pocket change compared with the revenues generated for being on TV every Saturday then 1 Jan.
The BCS 65 dictate the agenda. Mark Emmert is subservient to Delany, Sankey, Swofford, and even Bowlsby. Anyone who thinks that Emmert will ever dare challenge Delany is a fool.
But if the lower 286 continue to stand in the way of the 65 I can see the BCS breaking off. But first, the 65 will marginalize the authority of the NCAA in small yet significant ways. Cream cheese will be spread on bagels. The Hoops season will begin after the BCS holiday bowls, limiting basketball to a single semester. The Enforcement Division will be further stripped of reach and punitive power. And student athletes will begin getting stipends.
Personally, I think Devin Bush, Rashan Gary, and Shea Patterson should get paid. They make a lot of money for Michigan. Should the star of the Central Michigan team get paid? What is his economic value to the college? The answer is very little.
If the NCAA's 286 junior members continue to mess with the BCS Wish List I can see the 65 breaking off. And there's not a damn thing the NCAA can do about it.
The real losers will be the Olympic sports at the 286. Notre Dame's women's sports will continue to thrive. So too will the hockey and lacrosse teams at the 65. But at what remains of the NCAA the ability to fund Olympic sports and meet Title IX requirements will be a challenge.
This myth keeps coming up and there are enough level headed people out that have explained why, at least for the next 15 years this isn't happening. By the way, record revenues don't mean much without the context of what the expenses are. A company can make $1 Billion but if their expenses are $1.5 Billion it may not mean much.
Football schools make revenues on their football games, large stadiums and the dollars that come into that. They also make a considerable chunk from the biggest revenue generator, the NCAA basketball tournament contract which does not expire until 2032. The contract stipulates that only NCAA member institutions are eligible. If those schools breakaway, they will have to go do their own deal. Many of those 65 football schools amount to garbage when it comes to basketball, despite their football chops. Their attractiveness with the lack of Davids, and only behemoth Goliath schools is not what the public wants.
The Michigan players you mention that should get paid, why is it when Michigan sucked the Big House was still sold out and people still attending? Because people want to see Michigan play, not those individual players.
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This myth keeps coming up and there are enough level headed people out that have explained why, at least for the next 15 years this isn't happening. By the way, record revenues don't mean much without the context of what the expenses are. A company can make $1 Billion but if their expenses are $1.5 Billion it may not mean much.
Football schools make revenues on their football games, large stadiums and the dollars that come into that. They also make a considerable chunk from the biggest revenue generator, the NCAA basketball tournament contract which does not expire until 2032. The contract stipulates that only NCAA member institutions are eligible. If those schools breakaway, they will have to go do their own deal. Many of those 65 football schools amount to garbage when it comes to basketball, despite their football chops. Their attractiveness with the lack of Davids, and only behemoth Goliath schools is not what the public wants.
The Michigan players you mention that should get paid, why is it when Michigan sucked the Big House was still sold out and people still attending? Because people want to see Michigan play, not those individual players.
Been saying the bolded for ages. Everybody focuses on the Ohio State, MIchigans, Bamas etc not thinking about the Rutgers, washington st, etc.
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Quite the crapshoot
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/24823682/why-ncaa-hoops-scandal-likely-spread-trial-starts
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This myth keeps coming up and there are enough level headed people out that have explained why, at least for the next 15 years this isn't happening. By the way, record revenues don't mean much without the context of what the expenses are. A company can make $1 Billion but if their expenses are $1.5 Billion it may not mean much.
Football schools make revenues on their football games, large stadiums and the dollars that come into that. They also make a considerable chunk from the biggest revenue generator, the NCAA basketball tournament contract which does not expire until 2032. The contract stipulates that only NCAA member institutions are eligible. If those schools breakaway, they will have to go do their own deal. Many of those 65 football schools amount to garbage when it comes to basketball, despite their football chops. Their attractiveness with the lack of Davids, and only behemoth Goliath schools is not what the public wants.
The Michigan players you mention that should get paid, why is it when Michigan sucked the Big House was still sold out and people still attending? Because people want to see Michigan play, not those individual players.
What keefe said is not inconsistent with the timeline of what you are stating. He is 100% right that the BCS holds the power and that they *could* break off from the NCAA. I doubt that will happen because they rest of the organization KNOWS the BCS hold most of the cards.
And the players don't need to be paid by the school. They can be paid by outside sources.
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But if the lower 286 continue to stand in the way of the 65 I can see the BCS breaking off. But first, the 65 will marginalize the authority of the NCAA in small yet significant ways. Cream cheese will be spread on bagels. The Hoops season will begin after the BCS holiday bowls, limiting basketball to a single semester. The Enforcement Division will be further stripped of reach and punitive power. And student athletes will begin getting stipends.
Shyte ... who would put anything BUT cream cheese on bagels?
Margarine? Jelly? Plain? Heresy!!!!
Give me a fresh Everything bagel with a chive schmear, a few slices of lox, maybe a little beefsteak tomato and red onion, a sprinkle of capers ... now you're talkin'!
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Shyte ... who would put anything BUT cream cheese on bagels?
Margarine? Jelly? Plain? Heresy!!!!
Give me a fresh Everything bagel with a chive schmear, a few slices of lox, maybe a little beefsteak tomato and red onion, a sprinkle of capers ... now you're talkin'!
Peanut butter isn't half bad on a bagel. No cream cheese but it gets the job done
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Peanut butter isn't half bad on a bagel.
This....and on a toasted raisin bagel.
what was this thread about again ::)
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If I'm having a turkey sammich for lunch, sometimes I'll have it on an Everything bagel with a chive or veggie schmear, a couple slices of tomato, maybe some sprouts if I have 'em.
Wow! I know what I'm having for lunch today!!
Oh, and I love peanut butter. Never even thought of spreading it on a raisin bagel, but that makes a lot of sense. I definitely will try it.
This is the kind of investigating that makes a difference!!!
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And here... we... go...
@DanWetzel
During opening statement this morning, Jim Gattto's atty promised evidence would show Oregon offered "an atronomical amount of money" to recruit Brian Bowen to play for the Ducks. The $100,000 deal to attend Louisville was to "level the playing field."
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@DanWetzel
Gatto's atty also said Under Armor paid $20,000 to recruit Silvio De Sousa to sign with Maryland and Arizona offered $150,000 for Nassir Little. De Sousa is at Kansas, Little at UNC now. Goal is to make all of college hoops look corrupt.
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@DanWetzel
Gatto's atty also said Under Armor paid $20,000 to recruit Silvio De Sousa to sign with Maryland and Arizona offered $150,000 for Nassir Little. De Sousa is at Kansas, Little at UNC now. Goal is to make all of college hoops look corrupt.
I don't know I always considered that a dumb defense. Everyone was murdering the competition so what choice did my client have? Justice department: Coming to us?
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Is there ANY chance that Arizona gets hammered with some ricochet shots here and Nico Mannion backs out of his commitment??
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@DanWetzel
Gatto's atty also said Under Armor paid $20,000 to recruit Silvio De Sousa to sign with Maryland and Arizona offered $150,000 for Nassir Little. De Sousa is at Kansas, Little at UNC now. Goal is to make all of college hoops look corrupt.
Interesting. My daughter took the college tour of Maryland last week and they mentioned on the tour that the founder of Under Armour was a Maryland grad and is a big backer of the university and they mostly carry Under Armour gear in the school store.
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Is there ANY chance that Arizona gets hammered with some ricochet shots here and Nico Mannion backs out of his commitment??
Any chance? Sure. A likely chance? Doubtful at this point. There's about six weeks to go before early signing day.
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Is there ANY chance that Arizona gets hammered with some ricochet shots here and Nico Mannion backs out of his commitment??
Unlikely. The NCAA has been asked to hold off until the trials are over. This is just the first trial. There are trials scheduled at late as April.
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So it sounds like one of the defendants (Jim Gatto who used to work for Adidas) is essentially admitting to paying players, but is arguing that it isn't against federal law to do so. Just against NCAA rules.
And remember that the NCAA can use all of this as part of its investigation - which as TAMU said is being held off.
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So it sounds like one of the defendants (Jim Gatto who used to work for Adidas) is essentially admitting to paying players, but is arguing that it isn't against federal law to do so. Just against NCAA rules.
And remember that the NCAA can use all of this as part of its investigation - which as TAMU said is being held off.
This seems like the worst possible outcome for the involved schools. A witness openly stating in court that he helped schools commit NCAA violations. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NCAA take a similar approach when the time comes. Sidestep responsibility and say this a federal issue, not an NCAA one.
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This seems like the worst possible outcome for the involved schools. A witness openly stating in court that he helped schools commit NCAA violations. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the NCAA take a similar approach when the time comes. Sidestep responsibility and say this a federal issue, not an NCAA one.
Which means they'll never have to enforce any rule ever...
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So it sounds like one of the defendants (Jim Gatto who used to work for Adidas) is essentially admitting to paying players, but is arguing that it isn't against federal law to do so. Just against NCAA rules.
And remember that the NCAA can use all of this as part of its investigation - which as TAMU said is being held off.
This is hilarious, all kinds interstate commerce laws could be argue were broken. That gives the Feds automatic jurisdiction. Not a lawyer but from so many Fed cases I've followed jurisdiction is easy here.
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But if the lower 286 continue to stand in the way of the 65 I can see the BCS breaking off. But first, the 65 will marginalize the authority of the NCAA in small yet significant ways. Cream cheese will be spread on bagels. The Hoops season will begin after the BCS holiday bowls, limiting basketball to a single semester. The Enforcement Division will be further stripped of reach and punitive power. And student athletes will begin getting stipends.
The real losers will be the Olympic sports at the 286. Notre Dame's women's sports will continue to thrive. So too will the hockey and lacrosse teams at the 65. But at what remains of the NCAA the ability to fund Olympic sports and meet Title IX requirements will be a challenge.
First off, cream cheese, peanut butter, and other spreads have been permitted for many years now. Basketball will never be limited to a single semester, but soccer may be spread out over the entire academic year, student-athletes are already getting stipends, some as much as $6k/year.
I do agree regarding a split, but it will be more along the lines of the 65 breaking off to form their own division and the rest, Big East included, basically being like the FCS. The Power Five schools desperately want to find a way to keep non-Power 5 schools from stealing the revenue they think they're entitled to, particularly in the NCAA tourney. Loyola's run this past year only further angered the Power 5. 2022 is when the next TV deals are up, that's when we'll see the sea change. The Big Ten and Pac-12 are already scheming as to how to get Texas.
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Interesting. My daughter took the college tour of Maryland last week and they mentioned on the tour that the founder of Under Armour was a Maryland grad and is a big backer of the university and they mostly carry Under Armour gear in the school store.
Kevin Plank is founder of Under Armour and a UMD grad. Like 5 years ago, he wanted to do to UMD what Nike did to Oregon. UMD was The first college to have UA provide uniforms for all sports and Plank has been extremely generous to UMD and employs many at its Maryland facilities.
Plank gave 25 million to renovate the old Cole Field house into the Terrapin Performance Center, which cost 150 million. I was there two weeks ago and it is just stunning. Hope no issues come up with UA in this.
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First off, cream cheese, peanut butter, and other spreads have been permitted for many years now. Basketball will never be limited to a single semester, but soccer may be spread out over the entire academic year, student-athletes are already getting stipends, some as much as $6k/year.
I do agree regarding a split, but it will be more along the lines of the 65 breaking off to form their own division and the rest, Big East included, basically being like the FCS. The Power Five schools desperately want to find a way to keep non-Power 5 schools from stealing the revenue they think they're entitled to, particularly in the NCAA tourney. Loyola's run this past year only further angered the Power 5. 2022 is when the next TV deals are up, that's when we'll see the sea change. The Big Ten and Pac-12 are already scheming as to how to get Texas.
Nope.
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Been saying the bolded for ages. Everybody focuses on the Ohio State, MIchigans, Bamas etc not thinking about the Rutgers, washington st, etc.
As a New Jersey resident I think about Rutgers.
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As a New Jersey resident I think about Rutgers.
You tune in to watch Rutgers football and basketball on the regular?
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@DanWetzel
Gatto's atty also said Under Armor paid $20,000 to recruit Silvio De Sousa to sign with Maryland and Arizona offered $150,000 for Nassir Little. De Sousa is at Kansas, Little at UNC now. Goal is to make all of college hoops look corrupt.
Is this where we find out how much Grimes got to go to Kansas?
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Is this where we find out how much Grimes got to go to Kansas?
Let's just hope we don't find out adidas had to outbid Jordan Brand.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/we-have-new-pay-for-play-accusations-in-the-college-basketball-investigation
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Nope.
Tell me where I’m wrong.
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This may have been mentioned previously on this board.
Jim Gatto, the Adidas representative, is the son of long time high school coach Jim Gatto Sr. who coached former Marquette player Dwayne Johnson at Mater Christi High School in Astoria, NY.
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What keefe said is not inconsistent with the timeline of what you are stating. He is 100% right that the BCS holds the power and that they *could* break off from the NCAA. I doubt that will happen because they rest of the organization KNOWS the BCS hold most of the cards.
And the players don't need to be paid by the school. They can be paid by outside sources.
Who is keefe?
The BCS may hold the football power, but they don't hold all the power considering where the money is coming from for the NCAA. Many things could happen, that is endless in possibilities.
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Who is keefe?
The BCS may hold the football power, but they don't hold all the power considering where the money is coming from for the NCAA. Many things could happen, that is endless in possibilities.
What's a Chicos?
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What's a Chicos?
I want Who is keefe? vs What's a Chicos? in the next meme tournament.
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I want Who is keefe? vs What's a Chicos? in the next meme tournament.
What's the over on the persona line?
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What's the over on the persona line?
non grata
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non grata
Still a Cubs fan ::)
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Well, hello Creighton!
Adam Zagoria @AdamZagoria
Brian Bowen Sr. just said in federal court he was offered but did not accept money and benefits from Arizona, Oklahoma State, Texas Creighton And Oregon
Jeff Borzello @jeffborzello
Brian Bowen Sr. told the jury today that Christian Dawkins conveyed the following offers for Brian Bowen Jr. to commit:
• Arizona: $50,000
• Oklahoma State: $150,000, $8000 for a car, money for a house
• Texas: “help me with housing”
• Creighton: $100,000 and a “good job”
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Well, hello Creighton!
Adam Zagoria @AdamZagoria
Brian Bowen Sr. just said in federal court he was offered but did not accept money and benefits from Arizona, Oklahoma State, Texas Creighton And Oregon
Jeff Borzello @jeffborzello
Brian Bowen Sr. told the jury today that Christian Dawkins conveyed the following offers for Brian Bowen Jr. to commit:
• Arizona: $50,000
• Oklahoma State: $150,000, $8000 for a car, money for a house
• Texas: “help me with housing”
• Creighton: $100,000 and a “good job”
not just a good job, a "lucrative job."
Also, Bowen Sr. said he did not recall discussing Oregon with Dawkins, so maybe the Ducks are in the clear.
DePaul assistant Shane Heriman paying $2k/month to get the kid to his when Heriman coached there.
And this: "Bowen Sr. said Dawkins told him an original offer of $60,000 to $80,000 from Adidas to attend Louisville was increased to $100,000 because that is how much Billy Preston got to go to Kansas."
We all know this has been going on for years. It took the shoe companies getting involved to blow it into the open. TC used to talk about some of the ridiculous demands kids, parents and AAU coaches would make and ask for. Thankfully in TC and Wojo we've had two class coaches who refused to be dragged into that cesspool over the last 20 years.
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Thankfully Hopefully in TC and Wojo we've had two class coaches who refused to be dragged into that cesspool over the last 20 years.
FIFY
Also, there is a [cough, cough] gap in your timeline.
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FIFY
Also, there is a [cough, cough] gap in your timeline.
Who were these AAU blue chippers that MU signed who were in the gap in the timeline?
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Who were these AAU blue chippers that MU signed who were in the gap in the timeline?
I personally don't think there is either smoke or fire there. Was mostly wondering if his omission was intentional.
However, it's possible to be bad at cheating but still get implicated -- just ask DePaul.
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Wow.
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1047946984156516353?s=19
If any of the things that are coming out can be proven, and also proved to have actually followed through in prior recruits/players, how can the NCAA be respected ever?
Also, I sincerely am hoping there aren't any stories involving Marquette. I don't believe Wojo or Crean seem like the type. Buzz, I could see a bit more.
But I also didn't thing Creighton would be involved either. So who knows
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FIFY
Also, there is a [cough, cough] gap in your timeline.
unfortunately yes, there is.
And it's not just AAU blue chippers who ask for or get money/benefits.
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FIFY
Also, there is a [cough, cough] gap in your timeline.
Billy loves him some TC and Wojo, hates Buzz.
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Billy loves him some TC and Wojo, hates Buzz.
Sounds like a candidate for a backyard beer summit.
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Sounds like a candidate for a backyard beer summit.
I literally laughed out loud.
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I literally laughed out loud.
+1
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Crean sucks
#freebeejay2018
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Sounds like a candidate for a backyard beer summit.
I will add this one to the over column in Chicos vs. Keefe persona contest.
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Billy loves him some TC and Wojo, hates Buzz.
Let’s just say that there’s a reason certain malcontents were not kicked off the team by Buzz when they should have been.....
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Let’s just say that there’s a reason certain malcontents were not kicked off the team by Buzz when they should have been.....
Wait... were they paying... Buzz?
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Let’s just say that there’s a reason certain malcontents were not kicked off the team by Buzz when they should have been.....
Tattoo removal ain't cheap.
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Let’s just say that there’s a reason certain malcontents were not kicked off the team by Buzz when they should have been.....
Yeah, let's just say it...without any proof of course...but let's just say it anyway...
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Yeah, let's just say it...without any proof of course...but let's just say it anyway...
A lot of that going around these days. No proof of anything, but destroying the lives of people. Welcome to America
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Let’s just say that there’s a reason certain malcontents were not kicked off the team by Buzz when they should have been.....
Not cool. You have hinted at this several times in the last year. Either come out with it or shut up.
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Not cool. You have hinted at this several times in the last year. Either come out with it or shut up.
Still waiting on the Chicos Bail Bonds Blue Ribbon Panel Report on the Buzz Era too, aina.
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A lot of that going around these days. No proof of anything, but destroying the lives of people. Welcome to America
LOL
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Welcome to America
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/721/772/d56.gif)
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LateHonorableDutchshepherddog-small.gif)
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In before the lock :P
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A lot of that going around these days. No proof of anything, but destroying the lives of people. Welcome to America
So weird. This guy named Chicos used to say things similar to that. But he wasn't from Chicago.
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Not cool. You have hinted at this several times in the last year. Either come out with it or shut up.
Persona Point-Counterpoint. Bonus points
(http://connectedthings.mitforumcambridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/maxresdefault.jpg)
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Persona Point-Counterpoint. Bonus points
(http://connectedthings.mitforumcambridge.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/maxresdefault.jpg)
chicos, you ignorant sl*t
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So weird. This guy named Chicos used to say things similar to that. But he wasn't from Chicago.
Several guys around here used to say similar things to that. But it was actually just one guy... and Chico’s wasn’t even this guy’s “main.”
Am I the only one who’s figured this out?
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Several guys around here used to say similar things to that. But it was actually just one guy... and Chico’s wasn’t even this guy’s “main.”
Am I the only one who’s figured this out?
Benny - Agree that there have been several iteration of Chico (sometimes even multiple ones simultaneously) but I would be interested in a) your summary/explanation and b) who his "main" was.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0MYDdB5wsqeNESYg/giphy.gif)
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Benny - Agree that there have been several iteration of Chico (sometimes even multiple ones simultaneously) but I would be interested in a) your summary/explanation and b) who his "main" is.
A) First off, the whole Chicos “persona” is a complete fabrication. As Jon Lovitz would say.... “aaaact-ing.” And I’m not talking about how Chicos pretends to be someone else. The “Chicos” character itself is someone pretending to be “Chicos.”
That being said, two words that will lead you to the promised land: Cracked Sidewalks.
B) FIFY.
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A) First off, the whole Chicos “persona” is a complete fabrication. As Jon Lovitz would say.... “aaaact-ing.” And I’m not talking about how Chicos pretends to be someone else. The “Chicos” character itself is someone pretending to be “Chicos.”
That being said, two words that will lead you to the promised land: Cracked Sidewalks.
B) FIFY.
Nah.
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Wait ... what's a chicos?
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Wait ... what's a chicos?
A Hoopaloop?
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Wait ... what's a chicos?
I asked a question months ago and all people had to do was answer the question. Now I understand it is a user here, but how hard would it have been to answer the question?
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I want Who is keefe? vs What's a Chicos? in the next meme tournament.
Who is keefe? Is that the same person as baby david?
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At what point does the ncaa get involved??
Sean miller on tape discussing payments, yet he is coaching? Asst coaches discussing payments? Is the ncaa unaware of these indictments?
As sad as itsounds, it appears Louisvilke is the only program to handle these cases anywhere close to appropriately. How can it possibly be that numerous other head coaches have not been fired?? What am i missing here?
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At what point does the ncaa get involved??
Sean miller on tape discussing payments, yet he is coaching? Asst coaches discussing payments? Is the ncaa unaware of these indictments?
As sad as itsounds, it appears Louisvilke is the only program to handle these cases anywhere close to appropriately. How can it possibly be that numerous other head coaches have not been fired?? What am i missing here?
FBI asked NCAA to wait
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At what point does the ncaa get involved??
Sean miller on tape discussing payments, yet he is coaching? Asst coaches discussing payments? Is the ncaa unaware of these indictments?
As sad as itsounds, it appears Louisvilke is the only program to handle these cases anywhere close to appropriately. How can it possibly be that numerous other head coaches have not been fired?? What am i missing here?
All good questions but I think the simple answer is money. The schools don't want to open themselves up to wrongful termination lawsuits. NCAA violations and the associated punishments will put the institutions on firmer ground to terminate. Unfortunately the NCAA has been put on the sidelines by the FBI while they complete their process.
The trendy public opinion is that "the NCAA is a joke and will never do anything to clean up the mess" but I don't believe that is the case. If anything the NCAA has shown the propensity to over reach their authority as they did at Penn State. The UNC fiasco turned out to be a legal loophole that the school used to avoid punishment. Unfortunate but the NCAA has to play the hand dealt them. Also, Michigan State was outside the NCAA jurisdiction but the school did hang a $1/2 billion bill on the tax payers of Michigan.
FWIW, my Arizona friends tell me its 'a matter of when not if' Miller is gone and they are not too upset to see him leave due to their perception that he has underachieved in Tucson, especially since he has been paying recruits.
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A) First off, the whole Chicos “persona” is a complete fabrication. As Jon Lovitz would say.... “aaaact-ing.” And I’m not talking about how Chicos pretends to be someone else. The “Chicos” character itself is someone pretending to be “Chicos.”
That being said, two words that will lead you to the promised land: Cracked Sidewalks.
B) FIFY.
This is Publius Enigma level $hit, Benny.
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Per Dick Vitale tonight:
A source involved in the @FBI hoops investigation told me there could be some testimony tomorrow that can create a big nightmare for some coaches & schools / stay tuned ! @espn
Could be interesting, but like Newsdreams stated, FBI told NCAA to wait on any action until trials are over, like in April.
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Per Dick Vitale tonight:
A source involved in the @FBI hoops investigation told me there could be some testimony tomorrow that can create a big nightmare for some coaches & schools / stay tuned ! @espn
Could be interesting, but like Newsdreams stated, FBI told NCAA to wait on any action until trials are over, like in April.
The last trial doesn't even start until April. It will be a while
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Thread on statements from today:
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1049704608661209088?s=19
Also, a few comments from Roy Williams. Priceless:
https://twitter.com/RossMartin_IC/status/1049724664120037381?s=19
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WTF Roy. Cmon...
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Also, a few comments from Roy Williams. Priceless:
https://twitter.com/RossMartin_IC/status/1049724664120037381?s=19
Oh Shaggy, you've taught us all a very valuable lesson.... just keep repeating "it wasn't me" and eventually someone will buy the schlock you're peddling.
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Per Dick Vitale tonight:
A source involved in the @FBI hoops investigation told me there could be some testimony tomorrow that can create a big nightmare for some coaches & schools / stay tuned ! @espn
Was this the ground breaking news?? If so, underwhelming to say the least. Seems like info we all knew at this point. C'mon Dickie V, you're better than that!
Thread on statements from today:
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1049704608661209088?s=19
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If Louisville really was funneling money to Bowen after already being on significant probation - including having a National Championship taken away, I don't know what else the NCAA could do - short of the Death Penalty - that would make any type of discipline or consequence worthwhile. Now, having said that, it is clear that many teams are not clean in this process, and UNC made a mockery of any type of legitimate amateur model for student-athletes as well.
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Dickie v now tweeting from his sources Assistant Coach testimony will be more damning.
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Death penalty for Louisville?
https://sports.yahoo.com/louisville-basketball-get-death-penalty-latest-revelations-college-hoops-trial-225857521.html
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https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1050121467508269056
Not looking good for Bill Self. Or Sean Miller
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https://twitter.com/danwetzel/status/1050481974790508546?s=21
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https://twitter.com/danwetzel/status/1050481974790508546?s=21
Love the comment three reply’s down...”Explains why he didn’t end up at Wisconsin. That and grades”
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How is Miller not fired? I can see waiting on some one like Self where the evidence is shaking out, but my god the UA Admin is a flipping joke.
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Hopefully for the players sake's at KU, UA, et. all any sanctions from the investigation come out before the start of the 19-20' season. While I believe schools should be punished for rules infractions it is always the current/incoming players who pay for the pass transgressions by having post season bans when the offending players/coaches are long gone.
Which leads to what punishment do people want to see for MSU besides what they have received from the courts? Again you would be punishing current student athletes for the deeds of a rapist/pedophile. I just don't know what would be an appropriate penalty from an NCAA perspective. Only thing I can think of is a ban on money to the school from NCAA events for a certain time period.
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Hopefully for the players sake's at KU, UA, et. all any sanctions from the investigation come out before the start of the 19-20' season. While I believe schools should be punished for rules infractions it is always the current/incoming players who pay for the pass transgressions by having post season bans when the offending players/coaches are long gone.
Which leads to what punishment do people want to see for MSU besides what they have received from the courts? Again you would be punishing current student athletes for the deeds of a rapist/pedophile. I just don't know what would be an appropriate penalty from an NCAA perspective. Only thing I can think of is a ban on money to the school from NCAA events for a certain time period.
How about capping the team to 10 players including walk-ons for 4 years; but they still would be able to play in the tournament.
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Hopefully for the players sake's at KU, UA, et. all any sanctions from the investigation come out before the start of the 19-20' season. While I believe schools should be punished for rules infractions it is always the current/incoming players who pay for the pass transgressions by having post season bans when the offending players/coaches are long gone.
Which leads to what punishment do people want to see for MSU besides what they have received from the courts? Again you would be punishing current student athletes for the deeds of a rapist/pedophile. I just don't know what would be an appropriate penalty from an NCAA perspective. Only thing I can think of is a ban on money to the school from NCAA events for a certain time period.
Take away scholarships or heavy fine. If you're going to postseason ban it needs to be a year or two from now so the current recruits have time to weigh whether they still wish to commit
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A) First off, the whole Chicos “persona” is a complete fabrication. As Jon Lovitz would say.... “aaaact-ing.” And I’m not talking about how Chicos pretends to be someone else. The “Chicos” character itself is someone pretending to be “Chicos.”
That being said, two words that will lead you to the promised land: Cracked Sidewalks.
B) FIFY.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1msvMtx4RlvDG/giphy.gif)
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https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/fake-affairs-charger-driving-great-grandmas-300k-expense-accounts-inside-routine-day-hoops-trial-012320618.html?__twitter_impression=true
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Hope this doesn't infringe any ncaa rules :P
https://twitter.com/marquetteu/status/1050769183355617280?s=21
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https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/fake-affairs-charger-driving-great-grandmas-300k-expense-accounts-inside-routine-day-hoops-trial-012320618.html?__twitter_impression=true
;D "Tom hugged me" :P
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So I haven't really kept up on the trial, but it seems like every article I've opened names both Arizona and Kansas in every testimony out there. The NCAA is going to go with the "these shoe execs were doing this completely on their own without these programs being aware that anything was going on" story? Self and Miller are all good, and Zona and Kansas won't face any penalties, hey?
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So I haven't really kept up on the trial, but it seems like every article I've opened names both Arizona and Kansas in every testimony out there. The NCAA is going to go with the "these shoe execs were doing this completely on their own without these programs being aware that anything was going on" story? Self and Miller are all good, and Zona and Kansas won't face any penalties, hey?
Well there are some assistants mentioned as getting $, and the story of KU's investigation into car ownership is kind of funny and wink wink
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Yeah, in the end, an assistant or two probably will be sacrificial lambs.
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So, what's the over/under on when Nico will re-open his recruitment?
At some point, a family as classy as the Mannions has to realize Sean Miller is beneath them.
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So, what's the over/under on when Nico will re-open his recruitment?
At some point, a family as classy as the Mannions has to realize Sean Miller is beneath them.
Pretty low. Almost no chance that there any NCAA violations until after he is done with school (unless something goes sideways and he's not a one and done). I suppose there's a chance that Arizona fires Miller if NCAA violations seem inevitable and they want to try the "we punished ourselves already" defense but I don't think so. One of his best friends and AAU teammate Josh Green just committed there. It would take something pretty monumental to get him to decommit.
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https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/fake-affairs-charger-driving-great-grandmas-300k-expense-accounts-inside-routine-day-hoops-trial-012320618.html?__twitter_impression=true
Kansas deserves the death penalty. They were clearly involved in all the illegal dealings, and even when they investigated it they just looked the other way. Clearly an example of repeated and significant abuse with lack (complete absence) of institutional control.
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https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/fake-affairs-charger-driving-great-grandmas-300k-expense-accounts-inside-routine-day-hoops-trial-012320618.html?__twitter_impression=true
Haha wow that was a great read. I don’t know why MU isn’t trying this?
Kansas and all these guys clearly just paying anyone and everyone and no one takes any action. Sheesh.
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So...there was only one Adidas school in for Stone, right? Which just means Adidas wouldn't meet his asking price to put him at Wisconsin?
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Haha wow that was a great read. I don’t know why MU isn’t trying this?
Kansas and all these guys clearly just paying anyone and everyone and no one takes any action. Sheesh.
Again, the FBI has asked the NCAA to wait.
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The next round of trials don't begin until April 2019. That means at the earliest I'd think the NCAA would start looking into this in May or June. Not sure when this will all come out in the wash, but this was not a good week for Kansas or Arizona. From the Preston car issues to the De Sousa payments to Self having dinner with TJ Gassnola the night before he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, Kansas fans should be nervous.
For Arizona, no reasonable person could be expected to believe Adidas paid money to Ayton and he went to Arizona without money changing hands. Lots of smoke around the program. It sounds like they were offering money to everyone from Brian Bowen to Nas Little. I have no idea if there will be anything out before the season or if it impacts Mannion, but it does feel interesting that we lost marquee guards each of the past two seasons to the programs that are essentially at ground zero of this investigation.
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Again, the FBI has asked the NCAA to wait.
The schools don't need to, though.
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The schools don't need to, though.
There is no reason for them to do anything immediately. They won't be penalized for lack of moral virtue.
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There is no reason for them to do anything immediately. They won't be penalized for lack of moral virtue.
Their Board of Trustees may differ if they are fulfilling their legal obligations, especially at these state run institutions. Sitting on their hands is a ridiculous excuse that politicians and taxpayers won't take lightly.
UL's acted, why not others? If these coaches got a DUI, they would be put on leave. Bribery, misuse of funds, racketeering? Let's wait and see. 😂
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Their Board of Trustees may differ if they are fulfilling their legal obligations, especially at these state run institutions. Sitting on their hands is a ridiculous excuse that politicians and taxpayers won't take lightly.
UL's acted, why not others? If these coaches got a DUI, they would be put on leave. Bribery, misuse of funds, racketeering? Let's wait and see. 😂
I hate to say this, but the politicians and taxpayers would be more offended if there favorite big state school put sanctions on themselves. People really only care about rules and punishment when it is affecting someone else.
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I hate to say this, but the politicians and taxpayers would be more offended if there favorite big state school put sanctions on themselves. People really only care about rules and punishment when it is affecting someone else.
100% True. If MU was as guilty as AZ, KU, UofL, etc. there would be a large percentage of people on this board defending Wojo and the program and grasping to any shred of evidence that might cast doubt. Just look at a Louisville fan board and see the number of people who hate their BoD and believe UofL has never done anything wrong.
To me the potential bigger question is "is it worth cheating?" If the NCAA is going to go soft or the legal system allows the schools to get off easy, I'm of the opinion MU should cheat their ass off. Look at the benefits to UK, AZ, UofL, NCSt, OKSt, etc.; it more than outweighs the cost to those programs. Hell, Wisconsin is a habitual violator of NCAA rules and the people of Wisconsin think the school and teams walk on water. (not just picking on Wisconsin, the same happens in most small states that have their sense of self worth tied to the state school like Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, etc.)
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I hate to say this, but the politicians and taxpayers would be more offended if there favorite big state school put sanctions on themselves. People really only care about rules and punishment when it is affecting someone else.
I too am not surprised, but under the bylaws of most colleges and universities, a board member has both legal and fiduciary responsibilities that can leave them culpable personally by inaction. It's also election season and not all are so enthralled with sports and its largesse.
https://www.boardeffect.com/blog/roles-responsibilities-board-directors-college-university/
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I could see Arizona firing Miller. But only because I've heard that he's not particularly beloved by many power players in Tucson. If they decide they want him gone, they could use this as an excuse. But that's the only way I see that happening.
Self? Naw, he untouchable unless the NCAA gets involved.
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I could see Arizona firing Miller. But only because I've heard that he's not particularly beloved by many power players in Tucson. If they decide they want him gone, they could use this as an excuse. But that's the only way I see that happening.
Self? Naw, he untouchable unless the NCAA gets involved.
Not sure that is true. School went all in on him after the story broke. That was their opportunity to make a move if what you say is true and the BOT chose not too. He was greeted by huge ovation when he came back for first game in Tucson after the story. What college coach anywhere does not have some heavy hitters who dislike them. Goes with the gig.
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Not sure that is true. School went all in on him after the story broke. That was their opportunity to make a move if what you say is true and the BOT chose not too. He was greeted by huge ovation when he came back for first game in Tucson after the story. What college coach anywhere does not have some heavy hitters who dislike them. Goes with the gig.
I didn't say all or that it was likely that he would fired. But there is a portion of the fan base and boosters that aren't fans of Miller. Louisville embraced pitino after the cardinal rules scandal. One scandal later and he was gowne.
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https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article220042375.html
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https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article220042375.html
Wow. That feels like the biggest info to drop since we saw Pitino leave UL.
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The funny thing is Kansas hasn't won anything in a decade and Arizona has as many titles as Marquette.
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The funny thing is Kansas hasn't won anything in a decade and Arizona has as many titles as Marquette.
Except for ten conference titles, a Final Four and a handful of Elite 8s.
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To me the potential bigger question is "is it worth cheating?" If the NCAA is going to go soft or the legal system allows the schools to get off easy, I'm of the opinion MU should cheat their ass off. Look at the benefits to UK, AZ, UofL, NCSt, OKSt, etc.; it more than outweighs the cost to those programs. Hell, Wisconsin is a habitual violator of NCAA rules and the people of Wisconsin think the school and teams walk on water. (not just picking on Wisconsin, the same happens in most small states that have their sense of self worth tied to the state school like Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, etc.)
Um, no.
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100% True. If MU was as guilty as AZ, KU, UofL, etc. there would be a large percentage of people on this board defending Wojo and the program and grasping to any shred of evidence that might cast doubt. Just look at a Louisville fan board and see the number of people who hate their BoD and believe UofL has never done anything wrong.
To me the potential bigger question is "is it worth cheating?" If the NCAA is going to go soft or the legal system allows the schools to get off easy, I'm of the opinion MU should cheat their ass off. Look at the benefits to UK, AZ, UofL, NCSt, OKSt, etc.; it more than outweighs the cost to those programs. Hell, Wisconsin is a habitual violator of NCAA rules and the people of Wisconsin think the school and teams walk on water. (not just picking on Wisconsin, the same happens in most small states that have their sense of self worth tied to the state school like Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, etc.)
Yes because nothing says standing up for your values more than purposefully cheating.
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Lots of tweet updates todaY:
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1052323887621578752
Zion Williamson gets brought up:
https://sports.yahoo.com/zion-williamsons-kansas-recruitment-comes-hoop-scandal-trial-234727916.html
NCAA involvement after the trial?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2018/10/16/college-basketball-under-assault-federal-trial-but-does-ncaa-care/1662138002/
Summary of today:
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/college-basketball-scandal-trial-more-bad-news-for-kansas-zion-williamsons-name-appears-more-schools-implicated-context-matters
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After catching up on today, it sure seems there's a LOT more stuff out there that wasn't admitted as evidence for this particular case. Which, if that "stuff" is anything like things we've heard, probably scares a LOT of coaches/people/players/programs.
Also, Coach K is either extremely accurate in saying this investigation is a "blip" (because he things/knows the NCAA isn't going to do anything to anyone) or he's 100% wrong. And I don't think there is an in-between.
https://sports.yahoo.com/coach-k-shows-college-basketballs-elite-thinks-hoops-corruption-trial-052601836.html
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Yes because nothing says standing up for your values more than purposefully cheating.
As an entrepreneur for most of my professional career. I've had multiple opportunities to "cheat the system" and enrich myself but chose not to. I've also been cheated out of a large sum of money by others who "played ball". I guess my catholic upbringing was the reason I did such but I get angry at the way cheaters are rewarded.
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Go big DePaul. Go big.
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We should be ready for the very realistic possibility Marquette gets mentioned at some point. I'm not sure any high major program should feel very confident in their innocence right now.
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We should be ready for the very realistic possibility Marquette gets mentioned at some point. I'm not sure any high major program should feel very confident in their innocence right now.
I'd be more concerned if Michigan St was mentioned because they're the only top program we seem to be competing with consistenly for recruits.
Maybe for offering? I don't think we've taken any high enough recruits to actually pay outside of Henry but I doubt we paid and took Wally to get him.
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There is an old saying: "Follow the money."
The NCAA will do nothing on this one for the same reason they did nothing on the UNC bogus class scandal. To penalize the big cash cows in basketball would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Imagine if players were being paid to go to UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, Kansas and the NCAA put them all on probation for two years with NO tournament and limited scholarships.
The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.
Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!
Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!
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As an entrepreneur for most of my professional career. I've had multiple opportunities to "cheat the system" and enrich myself but chose not to. I've also been cheated out of a large sum of money by others who "played ball". I guess my catholic upbringing was the reason I did such but I get angry at the way cheaters are rewarded.
I don't disagree with you one bit.
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There is an old saying: "Follow the money."
The NCAA will do nothing on this one for the same reason they did nothing on the UNC bogus class scandal. To penalize the big cash cows in basketball would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Imagine if players were being paid to go to UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, Kansas and the NCAA put them all on probation for two years with NO tournament and limited scholarships.
The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.
Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!
Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!
You know what? If all those schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.
Non-alums follow UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good. Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead. As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level because more teams would be competitive.
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I'd be more concerned if Michigan St was mentioned because they're the only top program we seem to be competing with consistenly for recruits.
Maybe for offering? I don't think we've taken any high enough recruits to actually pay outside of Henry but I doubt we paid and took Wally to get him.
This is the same type of thinking Wisconsin fans use, yet they are recruiting guys like Diamond Stone, Kevon Looney, etc. And if a fringe top-25 guy like Bowen is offered $200k, you have to imagine most every top-100 is worth $10k at least.
The idea that we landed top-150 players with no possibility of pay for play is naive. Did guys like Cheatham, Heldt, Carter, Howard, Hauser(s), Ellenson, Cain, John, etc come here strictly on relationships? Maybe. But they could all be major pieces of most programs and game changing for smaller programs. If this goes on at the top, it likely goes on lower down.
All I'm saying is if anyone is trying to definitively say this didn't happen at my school, no matter what school it is, they are being naive.
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I'd be more concerned if Michigan St was mentioned because they're the only top program we seem to be competing with consistenly for recruits.
Maybe for offering? I don't think we've taken any high enough recruits to actually pay outside of Henry but I doubt we paid and took Wally to get him.
I tend to agree with this... taking Wally was a pretty steep price to pay to get Henry.
This is the same type of thinking Wisconsin fans use, yet they are recruiting guys like Diamond Stone, Kevon Looney, etc. And if a fringe top-25 guy like Bowen is offered $200k, you have to imagine most every top-100 is worth $10k at least.
The idea that we landed top-150 players with no possibility of pay for play is naive. Did guys like Cheatham, Heldt, Carter, Howard, Hauser(s), Ellenson, Cain, John, etc come here strictly on relationships? Maybe. But they could all be major pieces of most programs and game changing for smaller programs. If this goes on at the top, it likely goes on lower down.
And other than maybe Markus, I can't think of anyone else on the current roster who'd be considered by the agents/shoe companies as a payout candidate. As far as I can tell, these payments aren't being offered to every high-level recruit, they're going to those with likely NBA futures... the money is coming from the agents and executives who are expecting something, i.e. future business, in return; Adidas isn't funding UL's recruit pipeline because UL is a loyal user of their sneakers and apparel.
Also - and this is strictly anecdotal - but it would seem to me that the players who are getting "paid" by these schools are generally coming from economic situations where there isn't much to lose. In other words, I would think that Henry and Markus (i.e. their families), given their strong socioeconomic backgrounds (relatively speaking), would be exponentially less inclined to take a payout than someone who was left to hone their skills on the broken asphalt surrounding Cabrini Green. Even though Henry didn't need it, is it that far-fetched to surmise that he and his family probably wanted at least a little bit of the college experience.
Then again, if there is any relationship between payoffs and income, it's likely parabolic... as you approach the upper end of the income spectrum, you'll find that the rich never pass up an opportunity to add another buck to the pile, but more likely because they may feel a sense of entitlement or 'untouchabilty' (or at least can afford to lose whatever they may be putting at risk).
I think the moral of the story here is that, if Wojo targets 5-star recruits only from families who have household incomes between $87,800-82,300, MU will escape all of this unscathed.
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And other than maybe Markus, I can't think of anyone else on the current roster who'd be considered by the agents/shoe companies as a payout candidate. As far as I can tell, these payments aren't being offered to every high-level recruit, they're going to those with likely NBA futures... the money is coming from the agents and executives who are expecting something, i.e. future business, in return; Adidas isn't funding UL's recruit pipeline because UL is a loyal user of their sneakers and apparel.
Yeah, I don't think I would make the assumption that just because it is happening at the top, that it is likely happening lower down. As you imply, what shoe company is going to pay for Haanif Cheatham or even Sam Hauser coming out of high school? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just don't see the financial incentives that occur at the top.
Also - and this is strictly anecdotal - but it would seem to me that the players who are getting "paid" by these schools are generally coming from economic situations where there isn't much to lose. In other words, I would think that Henry and Markus (i.e. their families), given their strong socioeconomic backgrounds (relatively speaking), would be exponentially less inclined to take a payout than someone who was left to hone their skills on the broken asphalt surrounding Cabrini Green. Even though Henry didn't need it, is it that far-fetched to surmise that he and his family probably wanted at least a little bit of the college experience.
Brian Bowen lived a pretty solid middle-class life in Saginaw. I think you probably should research this a little further.
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With the articles from the past couple days, it seems pretty clear schools were involved in payments as well. Whether that's coaches, boosters, or what, it wasn't just shoe companies. It wasn't admitted due to the case being about shoe companies, but the reporting is pretty clear.
So while the shoe companies are paying for the pro level talent, the payments pretty clearly extend beyond that. I keep coming back to when Lovell said for every dollar spent on Marquette men's basketball, the return is nine times that.
The purview of the trial is shoe companies, but it's obvious the evidence extends beyond that and I find it hard to believe that won't come out too.
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http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/09/autumn-sole-stice.html?m=0
Just dropping this piece I did in 2011 that appeared in CS. Nike had a better conversion rate than Adidas back then but these characters also flipped companies. I didn't look beyond the Top 100 but influence dropped with the rankings (or increased with the rankings).
It seems like the Feds could <have> had a RICO case if they wanted but it gets hazy on what's illegal versus what's legal but not allowed under NCAA guidelines. Squirmy.
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Brian Bowen lived a pretty solid middle-class life in Saginaw. I think you probably should research this a little further.
As I said, anecdotal observations... no intention of painting everyone but all I have are broad brushes.
Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?
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As I said, anecdotal observations... no intention of painting everyone but all I have are broad brushes.
Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?
um, yes. Nice stereotyping though. Are you trying to insinuate that no urban area can have a solid middle class?
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What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player. Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools. And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid.
When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that. with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.
Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA? Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches. But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue? Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?
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Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?
Former co-worker of mine lived there for a number of years. He seemed to be living just fine.
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You know what? If all those schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.
Non-alums follow UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good. Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead. As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level because more teams would be competitive.
Excellent take.
College basketball survived major point-shaving scandals. It could survive a half-dozen or a dozen "name" programs going on probation for a year or two. It might even help the sport thrive in the long run.
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What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player. Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools. And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid.
When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that. with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.
Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA? Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches. But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue? Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?
I remember what Big Daddy said about Grimes and what he said seems very telling now in hindsight. He said something along the lines of “When the time is right, I will tell you all in a year or so what went down with Quentin Grimes.” Very likely he was paid.
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A tweet liked by Joey as well as a couple other people I follow on twitter said “If Zion Williamson didn’t go to Kansas for 100k, are we supposed to believe he went to Duke for free?” Lol
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What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player. Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools. And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid.
When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that. with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.
Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA? Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches. But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue? Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?
They will be interested there will be NBA type players but I guess market will correct and money offered will be less
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um, yes. Nice stereotyping though. Are you trying to insinuate that no urban area can have a solid middle class?
I suppose no more than I would "insinuate" that the sun is a flaming ball of hydrogen and helium. To qualify a middle class cohort anywhere as "solid" is misleading, and perhaps outright deceitful. Regardless of by what measure you define the middle class, the consensus among economists is that the concentrations of wealth and poverty on either side is compressing the range boundaries of the middle class. Now where the economists differ is whether - as a result of said compression - are classes defined by the population or are populations simply reclassified. While a slight majority leans to the latter, counter-intuitively, most economists and demographers also lean towards ignoring future earning potential but contemplating the effects of inflation when drawing lines between the classes, which seems paradoxical in that one factor give a prospective outlook while the other a static; however, the argument for this methodology is that inflation does not affect the various classes proportionately across the scale. "But Benny," you say, "future earning potential is influenced by a person's class as well." Quit whining. Of course it is, but not universally. In other words, two people with incomes of $X, same age, with the same education, living in the same neighborhood are equally affected by a CPI rise of 2% to 3%. However, the earning potential of those two individuals could vary drastically. In other words, any attempt to quantify earning potential for purposes of adding a data point to the model would be an exercise in futility given the likely conjecture of how such factor is quantified. Nevertheless, inflation itself fluctuates, and even with the best efforts of the Fed, is impossible to predict, much less stabilize.
In any event, the boundaries of what is considered "middle class," or any class for that matter, is fluid. Ergo, a "solid middle class" cannot, by definition, exist anywhere, be that urban, semi-urban, suburban, subural or rural.
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Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?
Former co-worker of mine lived there for a number of years. He seemed to be living just fine.
Cathy, I said as we boarded a Greyhound in Pittsburgh
Michigan seems like a dream to me now
It took me four days to hitchhike from Saginaw
I've gone to look for America
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You know what? If all those schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.
Non-alums follow UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good. Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead. As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level because more teams would be competitive.
Sister Chick, we should agree to partially agree!
The problem is that a sudden fall-off the radar for the current blue bloods would create a vacuum that would be filled by, oh, spring training baseball or the NBA. Or the NHL! In time, you are right. Others, like us, will fill the void. But being a good accountant and chief financial officer, you know, as does the NCAA, that there's a time value of money and that any fall-off in interest because a blue blood is on probation means fewer NCAA dollars.
Perhaps the bigger problem from the NCAA's perspective is that if they administered lengthy probations to the blue bloods, they'd take their balls, their big basketball budgets, their interest and their everything else and create their own league with their own rules. That would leave such basketball specialists as, say, Marquette and the Big East, out in the cold. And it would leave the NCAA in Chapter 7.
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College athletics have been beset with scandals forever - many worse than this one - and the money making train has continued to roll on (and get bigger, for that matter).
I have a hard timing buying that a court case proving what 99 percent of fans already knew - that the college sports industry is shady as heck - is going to bring down the entire system.
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Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA? Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches. But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue? Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?
When the top players go straight to the NBA nothing will change. The financial benefit to the shoe companies is not the player going to the NBA.
It is similar to why colleges spend so much on athletics, when often they don't even break even in terms of revenue. It is the value of the exposure, and publicity associated with the sport.
NCAA basketball will continue to be big business. And if the top programs are wearing Adidas, Nike, Under Armor etc., gear then the 12-30 year old market will buy the same gear. Sponsoring teams is only part of the game, that cost in sponsorship is pointless if the teams you are sponsoring aren't elite.
So, you kick money back to players, to ensure that your flagship sponsored university has the top talent. That aspect of the market will not change, so the shoe companies will continue to pay players.
Also, one reason MU may be clean in this is most shoe companies are going to only pay big dollars to support 1 or 2 flagship universities. MU is Jordan brand, and we are not one of the top 2 Jordan Brand schools in terms of marketing, so it is less likely that dollars were going to MU recruits.
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Also, one reason MU may be clean in this is most shoe companies are going to only pay big dollars to support 1 or 2 flagship universities. MU is Jordan brand, and we are not one of the top 2 Jordan Brand schools in terms of marketing, so it is less likely that dollars were going to MU recruits.
Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.
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Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.
Or Depaul is desperate and willing to do stupid things.
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The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.
Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!
Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!
It wouldn't tank, it is guaranteed for years to come with all of these long term contracts. Whether 1 person watches or millions, the money is guaranteed until the next contracts come up. Some aren't until 2025, some in 2030.
The NCAA isn't going to dole out the death penalty to anyone any longer, but they hit USC pretty damn hard. Is USC not a football blue blood? Miami was a blue blood in football, and the NCAA hit them very hard. Both programs suffered as a result. Michigan was hit hard. Louisville is darn close to a blue blood, they just had their national title vacated. That is hard hitting in my book.
The North Carolina basketball example continues to be misrepresented. If a college wants to offer bogus classes and anyone can attend (not just athletes) there is nothing the NCAA can do about it. Nothing.
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Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.
I agree with you in part, Brew.
The fanbase of any team who was in on any top 50 recruit in the last 5 years or so probably has reason to be at least a little nervous. It would be nothing for Adidas or Nike to take a $20k flyer on a top 50 guy.
However, that list of teams is tremendously long. I find it unlikely that all of them were in on it.
And even if they were, who has confidence that the NCAA would dole out fitting punishment for individual schools?
This whole problem has NCAA Blue Ribbon Investigative Panel written all over it.
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Sister Chick, we should agree to partially agree!
The problem is that a sudden fall-off the radar for the current blue bloods would create a vacuum that would be filled by, oh, spring training baseball or the NBA. Or the NHL! In time, you are right. Others, like us, will fill the void. But being a good accountant and chief financial officer, you know, as does the NCAA, that there's a time value of money and that any fall-off in interest because a blue blood is on probation means fewer NCAA dollars.
Perhaps the bigger problem from the NCAA's perspective is that if they administered lengthy probations to the blue bloods, they'd take their balls, their big basketball budgets, their interest and their everything else and create their own league with their own rules. That would leave such basketball specialists as, say, Marquette and the Big East, out in the cold. And it would leave the NCAA in Chapter 7.
I don't think the NCAA would be losing any money from the tournament. I would imagine even if schools like Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona, etc. were all not in it, the tournament is too big of a deal to lose considerable eyeballs.
Where they could get hurt is from regular season play from those schools, as they have large bases of fans that would lose a lot of interest in those games earlier in the year.
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Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.
That was money coming from DePaul, not the shoe companies.
That's why I said, less likely. The money would be coming from MU, or boosters, not the shoe companies.
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I don't think the NCAA would be losing any money from the tournament. I would imagine even if schools like Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona, etc. were all not in it, the tournament is too big of a deal to lose considerable eyeballs.
Where they could get hurt is from regular season play from those schools, as they have large bases of fans that would lose a lot of interest in those games earlier in the year.
The NCAA makes $0 on regular season games.
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The NCAA does not have to give death penalties to schools. They need to give them to the coaches involved. Coaches are the ones who are cheating. Ban some prominent coaches for life and the next coach might be less willing to risk his lively hood.
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The NCAA does not have to give death penalties to schools. They need to give them to the coaches involved. Coaches are the ones who are cheating. Ban some prominent coaches for life and the next coach might be less willing to risk his lively hood.
I don't really know much about NCAA penalties and enforcement but it would seem reasonable to penalize the schools with some kind of scholarship reduction (say 4/year for 5 years as an example), hit the coaches with a 5-10 year show-cause (depending on severity), and allow any non-implicated students to transfer one time penalty free. Students aren't punished, schools get to continue playing but have more than a slap on the wrist punishment, and coaches lose significant income. I doubt anything like that is feasible but I think most people could live with it.
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I don't really know much about NCAA penalties and enforcement but it would seem reasonable to penalize the schools with some kind of scholarship reduction (say 4/year for 5 years as an example), hit the coaches with a 5-10 year show-cause (depending on severity), and allow any non-implicated students to transfer one time penalty free. Students aren't punished, schools get to continue playing but have more than a slap on the wrist punishment, and coaches lose significant income. I doubt anything like that is feasible but I think most people could live with it.
Scholarship reductions just cut the end of bench players. Duke finished the 2015 National Championship year with just 8 players. The only ones punished in this scenario are prospective scholarship players who would have fewer options.
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this would seem to indicate that mr. bill self has some 'splain'in to do, eyn'a?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/defense-attorney-claims-bill-self-requested-the-payment-for-silvio-de-sousa
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Kansas University could go down. That would be a wonderful thing to see Bill Self fired and that program put on major probation.
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Kansas University could go down. That would be a wonderful thing to see Bill Self fired and that program put on major probation.
Why would you want one of your three alma maters to go down?
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Kansas University could go down. That would be a wonderful thing to see Bill Self fired and that program put on major probation.
Weren't they in major federal trouble a decade or so ago for a ticket office scheme that lasted many years? And was pervasive throughout the ticket office? Squirmy AD.
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Why would you want one of your three alma maters to go down?
You know he has to pretend
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this would seem to indicate that mr. bill self has some 'splain'in to do, eyn'a?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self
Wow that last paragraph, if true, has extortion/ Interstate commerce interference implications if the Feds wanted to nail him
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Why would you want one of your three alma maters to go down?
Last time you said 9 alma maters.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56316.msg1024636#msg1024636
You lack conviction
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Last time you said 9 alma maters.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56316.msg1024636#msg1024636
You lack conviction
Uhm. What? Maybe try looking at who made the post you just quoted and who made the post you just linked.
You lack intelligence.
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Uhm. What? Maybe try looking at who made the post you just quoted and who made the post you just linked.
You lack intelligence.
You and MU82 are the same people, isn't that how it works here? #wadesworld=mu82
Besides, I have never been to the university, let alone attended it. One alma mater
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56316.msg1024114#msg1024114
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You and MU82 are the same people, isn't that how it works here? #wadesworld=mu82
Besides, I have never been to the university, let alone attended it. One alma mater
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56316.msg1024114#msg1024114
Imma gonna kill two birds with one stone on this one...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1msvMtx4RlvDG/giphy.gif)
(You paying attention here, Eng? If not, you should.)
Classic - but amateur - diversion tactic of someone about to be exposed: accuse someone else.
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Imma gonna kill two birds with one stone on this one...
Classic - but amateur - diversion tactic of someone about to be exposed: accuse someone else.
Yes, I incorrectly identified the wrong person who claimed 9 alma maters. It doesn't make him any more correct when he says 3, because they are both wrong.
EDIT: Removing gif
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Imma gonna kill two birds with one stone on this one...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1msvMtx4RlvDG/giphy.gif)
(You paying attention here, Eng? If not, you should.)
Classic - but amateur - diversion tactic of someone about to be exposed: accuse someone else.
Lol yup. Instead of admitting, "Oops, I had the wrong guy," just play the victim and pretend it was your plan all along. Yup...definitely not Chicos.
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I did admit moments later I had the wrong guy. Just as you have had the wrong guy for months, when are you going to oops and admit it?
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Wow that last paragraph, if true, has extortion/ Interstate commerce interference implications if the Feds wanted to nail him
Talked to a good friend who played on the Championship team at KU in 1988; he thinks Self is going to be fired. He is pissed at Self but not totally surprised. He thinks the school is going to take their time due to the dollars and PR hit involved. He also is of the opinion that this is happening at all the blue blood schools and KU was just "keeping up with the Joneses".
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This is comical. Attorney says in court that Bill Self requested handlers make an offer to De Sousa. Bill Self himself then announces that De Souza will be suspended pending the revelation. At least attempt to hide the double standard.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/25071071/silvio-de-sousa-kansas-jayhawks-play-pending-review
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This is comical. Attorney says in court that Bill Self requested handlers make an offer to De Sousa. Bill Self himself then announces that De Souza will be suspended pending the revelation. At least attempt to hide the double standard.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/25071071/silvio-de-sousa-kansas-jayhawks-play-pending-review
So Self doesn't know if he directed a payment to DeSousa? If I knew I didn't get the player paid, I would not suspend him. If Kansas is questioning the player's eligibility due to Self paying him, wouldn't logic demand that Self be suspended also? "Comical" does not begin to describe the BS Kansas and Self are pulling.
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So Self doesn't know if he directed a payment to DeSousa? If I knew I didn't get the player paid, I would not suspend him. If Kansas is questioning the players eligibility due to Self paying him, would logic demand that Self be suspended also? "Comical" does not begin to describe the BS Kansas and Self are pulling.
Common sense is not that common
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If you need a dose of pain, misery, and righteous indignation, hop on any Kansas fan board. Everyone is apparently out get them and this the NCAA's revenge for them beating Duke and Kentucky fives in the last three years.
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So back to the topic.......verdict is in.....
https://twitter.com/petebrush/status/1055170261295816704?s=21
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If you need a dose of pain, misery, and righteous indignation, hop on any Kansas fan board. Everyone is apparently out get them and this the NCAA's revenge for them beating Duke and Kentucky fives in the last three years.
There is some very ugly stuff on their boards. If you thought Louisville or Arizona fans could be nasty; Kansas fans take it to a whole new level. Their recruits should read what their fans post; I don't think any would choose to go to Lawrence.
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Kansas President and Chancellor support Self and KU BB program
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1055182276152168449
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There is some very ugly stuff on their boards. If you thought Louisville or Arizona fans could be nasty; Kansas fans take it to a whole new level. Their recruits should read what their fans post; I don't think any would choose to go to Lawrence.
Kansas President and Chancellor support Self and KU BB program
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1055182276152168449
This is in essence why KU isn't going to change on its own.
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Kansas President and Chancellor support Self and KU BB program
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1055182276152168449
Ruh-roh. Doesn't the vote of confidence usually come right before the hatchet drops?
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Ruh-roh. Doesn't the vote of confidence usually come right before the hatchet drops?
Not the case with Zona last year
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If they can hold off on the punishment till the day we play them that'd be great
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If they can hold off on the punishment till the day we play them that'd be great
Any punishments will likely hold off until after the next round of trials in April.
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This is in essence why KU isn't going to change on its own.
While neither is a quality academic institution, KU is making UofL look like the apex of integrity and ethics. (Never thought I would ever write that)
How can a president of a university enforce punishment for academic dishonesty while allowing his own basketball coach to make a mockery of the NCAA rules? (I understand the KU is about men's basketball and not higher education but this is becoming a joke)
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/it-appears-that-kansas-played-with-an-ineligible-player-all-of-last-year-and-may-have-to-vacate-a-final-four
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Arizona with another quality commit
https://twitter.com/terryterry25/status/1055247660905459712?s=21
Terry Armstrong
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The cash is flying in Tucson.
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gotta love all the gratuitous sanctimony coming from the most probable benefactors of this stink-you can almost write the scripts for guys like self, petino, calipari, williams, et.al.
if this just prevents one more student athlete from going rogue and the ncaa can get back to its core values...this isn't what the ncaa is all about...it only takes a few to cast a bad image...they should take anyone who tries to ruin the system and cast us in a "bad light" and make an example of them...this is really all about the student-athlete and not where we want to go...it ruins the "spirit" of the student-athlete...let's get this all cleared up, we need transparency to bring the competition back to the fans...we will show full cooperation to get to the bottom of all this...
blah blah blah blah
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if this just prevents one more student athlete from going rogue and the ncaa can get back to its core values...
Making billions of dollars on the backs of an unpaid/underpaid labor force?
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Making billions of dollars on the backs of an unpaid/underpaid labor force?
How much should the 13th player on IUPUI roster make?
Look, I get the system is not perfect but that does not justify cheating nor do I see a way, legally, to compensate college athletes.
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How much should the 13th player on IUPUI roster make?
How ever much someone wants to pay him.
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gotta love all the gratuitous sanctimony coming from the most probable benefactors of this stink-you can almost write the scripts for guys like self, petino, calipari, williams, et.al.
if this just prevents one more student athlete from going rogue and the ncaa can get back to its core values...this isn't what the ncaa is all about...it only takes a few to cast a bad image...they should take anyone who tries to ruin the system and cast us in a "bad light" and make an example of them...this is really all about the student-athlete and not where we want to go...it ruins the "spirit" of the student-athlete...let's get this all cleared up, we need transparency to bring the competition back to the fans...we will show full cooperation to get to the bottom of all this...
blah blah blah blah
Let them make outside income. It will clear up the under the table payments quickly.
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Let them make outside income. It will clear up the under the table payments quickly.
This. I know it'll likely hurt mid majors as top talent will transfer but I think it'll clean up the game overall.
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Making billions of dollars on the backs of an unpaid/underpaid labor force?
There always seems to be an automatic assumption that they are unpaid/underpaid. The market says otherwise. Many of the top prospects for next year have been interviewed about whether they would consider the G-league offer. The majority said no, that the value of playing in the NCAA is better.
So the actual market, says that in a competitive marketplace between the G-league, Euro-leagues, and the NCAA, the NCAA is offering the best compensation. That means they are being compensated at the rate a competitive market place deems reasonable.
Let them make outside income. It will clear up the under the table payments quickly.
Not feasible. There are all kinds of problems with such a scenario. If you were to open them to outside income, they would be subjected to all the same conflict of interest issues that other employees (compensated individuals) at the University.
That means any outside income would have to go under general counsel review, and could not come from any entities that have agreements with the university (donations, business contracts, etc), nor any entities that are involved in the same competitive market that entities that have agreements with the university.
For example. Marquette is a Nike school. Nike directly compensating the athlete would be a conflict of interest between the athlete and Marquette, and would be disallowed for an MU employee (or compensated individual). Alternatively, if Adidas came and wanted to compensate/endorse the athlete, it would be disallowed, because Marquette has a exclusive rights clause with Nike, and it would be constituted as a conflict of interest and be disallowed.
The only recourse to that would be to say athletes are not subject to the same rules and regulations of all other University compensated individuals, which would open massive lawsuits involving selective prosecution.
It is not as trivial as just "opening people to outside income".
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Not feasible. There are all kinds of problems with such a scenario. If you were to open them to outside income, they would be subjected to all the same conflict of interest issues that other employees (compensated individuals) at the University.
That means any outside income would have to go under general counsel review, and could not come from any entities that have agreements with the university (donations, business contracts, etc), nor any entities that are involved in the same competitive market that entities that have agreements with the university.
For example. Marquette is a Nike school. Nike directly compensating the athlete would be a conflict of interest between the athlete and Marquette, and would be disallowed for an MU employee (or compensated individual). Alternatively, if Adidas came and wanted to compensate/endorse the athlete, it would be disallowed, because Marquette has a exclusive rights clause with Nike, and it would be constituted as a conflict of interest and be disallowed.
The only recourse to that would be to say athletes are not subject to the same rules and regulations of all other University compensated individuals, which would open massive lawsuits involving selective prosecution.
It is not as trivial as just "opening people to outside income".
Oh please.
It's completely feasible. They're students. Do other students under scholarship have to sign conflict of interest forms if they work off campus?
In reality it means they'll cut a few TV spots for boosters or collect some $$ from the same shoe company that sponsors the school. Maybe do a autograph session or two.
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This. I know it'll likely hurt mid majors as top talent will transfer but I think it'll clean up the game overall.
But that already happens. I don't think it would accelerate the transfer train any more than we've already seen.
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There always seems to be an automatic assumption that they are unpaid/underpaid. The market says otherwise. Many of the top prospects for next year have been interviewed about whether they would consider the G-league offer. The majority said no, that the value of playing in the NCAA is better.
So the actual market, says that in a competitive marketplace between the G-league, Euro-leagues, and the NCAA, the NCAA is offering the best compensation. That means they are being compensated at the rate a competitive market place deems reasonable.
That's not a "free market"
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This. I know it'll likely hurt mid majors as top talent will transfer but I think it'll clean up the game overall.
enter the luxury tax, eyn'a? might as well put a salary cap in there as well?
i needed teal because there isn't a 1/2 teal :D
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Not the Onion:
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2018/10/25/university-louisville-unveils-adidas-funded-ethical-leadership-project/1755029002/
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Oh please.
It's completely feasible. They're students. Do other students under scholarship have to sign conflict of interest forms if they work off campus?
In reality it means they'll cut a few TV spots for boosters or collect some $$ from the same shoe company that sponsors the school. Maybe do a autograph session or two.
Actually, students fall under the same conflict of interest agreements the moment they agree to be a student (has nothing to do with scholarship). Any intellectual property they construct using university resources belongs to the University, and when using university resources they cannot partake in any activities without approval of the general counsel if it may represent a conflict of interest.
It is just that the majority of students do not partake in any activities that could possibly represent a conflict of interest so it doesn't matter.
Where it usually happens is companies (say Pepsi or red bull) that is willing to sponsor a student organized event, or a student trip, etc. If the University has an exclusive rights agreement, the student or organization cannot accept any of the money, gear, etc.
Even if the University has say an exclusive rights agreement with Coke, the student organization cannot accept free gear, money, or product, because it represents a conflict of interest, rather they have to go through previously approved channels to acquire product.
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Actually, students fall under the same conflict of interest agreements the moment they agree to be a student (has nothing to do with scholarship). Any intellectual property they construct using university resources belongs to the University, and when using university resources they cannot partake in any activities without approval of the general counsel if it may represent a conflict of interest.
It is just that the majority of students do not partake in any activities that could possibly represent a conflict of interest so it doesn't matter.
Where it usually happens is companies (say Pepsi or red bull) that is willing to sponsor a student organized event, or a student trip, etc. If the University has an exclusive rights agreement, the student or organization cannot accept any of the money, gear, etc.
Even if the University has say an exclusive rights agreement with Coke, the student organization cannot accept free gear, money, or product, because it represents a conflict of interest, rather they have to go through previously approved channels to acquire product.
Stop letting the facts get in the way of a good argument.
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Making billions of dollars on the backs of an unpaid/underpaid labor force?
A college education is worth millions over one's life. The scholarship itself is worth hundreds of thousands. Don't like it, go play in the G League or go overseas. And when you say making billions, I hope you don't mean profit. None of the women's sports make money in aggregate and most of the men's sports don't either. Yet all those sports exist and it costs money to have them, that money comes from those other revenue streams.
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Not the Onion:
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2018/10/25/university-louisville-unveils-adidas-funded-ethical-leadership-project/1755029002/
That is amazing
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Actually, students fall under the same conflict of interest agreements the moment they agree to be a student (has nothing to do with scholarship). Any intellectual property they construct using university resources belongs to the University, and when using university resources they cannot partake in any activities without approval of the general counsel if it may represent a conflict of interest.
It is just that the majority of students do not partake in any activities that could possibly represent a conflict of interest so it doesn't matter.
Where it usually happens is companies (say Pepsi or red bull) that is willing to sponsor a student organized event, or a student trip, etc. If the University has an exclusive rights agreement, the student or organization cannot accept any of the money, gear, etc.
Even if the University has say an exclusive rights agreement with Coke, the student organization cannot accept free gear, money, or product, because it represents a conflict of interest, rather they have to go through previously approved channels to acquire product.
OK, so in other words, it would be completely feasible for student athletes just like it is for any other student.
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25085072/wiretap-audio-evidence-college-hoops-pay-play-released
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A college education is worth millions over one's life. The scholarship itself is worth hundreds of thousands. Don't like it, go play in the G League or go overseas. And when you say making billions, I hope you don't mean profit. None of the women's sports make money in aggregate and most of the men's sports don't either. Yet all those sports exist and it costs money to have them, that money comes from those other revenue streams.
No.
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25085072/wiretap-audio-evidence-college-hoops-pay-play-released
I is a guard's game, "...… my boss wants guards not bigs...…"
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OK, so in other words, it would be completely feasible for student athletes just like it is for any other student.
If by completely feasible, you mean they wouldn't be able to accept anything from any entity that had a financial agreement with the University, or that operated in a market with an entity that had an exclusive rights agreement with the university (as I wrote in my opening statement), then yes, totally feasible.
And as I said originally, that pretty much blocks out all the types of entities that would typically want to sponsor an athlete.
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Actually, students fall under the same conflict of interest agreements the moment they agree to be a student (has nothing to do with scholarship). Any intellectual property they construct using university resources belongs to the University, and when using university resources they cannot partake in any activities without approval of the general counsel if it may represent a conflict of interest.
It is just that the majority of students do not partake in any activities that could possibly represent a conflict of interest so it doesn't matter.
Where it usually happens is companies (say Pepsi or red bull) that is willing to sponsor a student organized event, or a student trip, etc. If the University has an exclusive rights agreement, the student or organization cannot accept any of the money, gear, etc.
Even if the University has say an exclusive rights agreement with Coke, the student organization cannot accept free gear, money, or product, because it represents a conflict of interest, rather they have to go through previously approved channels to acquire product.
Don't bother barking up that tree... the squirrels haven't been home for years.
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If by completely feasible, you mean they wouldn't be able to accept anything from any entity that had a financial agreement with the University, or that operated in a market with an entity that had an exclusive rights agreement with the university (as I wrote in my opening statement), then yes, totally feasible.
And as I said originally, that pretty much blocks out all the types of entities that would typically want to sponsor an athlete.
First of all, no exclusive rights deal are as stringent as you are stating. I've seen them and approved them and worked within their boundaries. They have exceptions written into them all over the place with certain approvals.
Second, you are ignoring all sorts of other avenues for income. Like working at a business owned by a booster. Like simply receiving a check for $10,000 from a booster because he just wants to give him one. (As long as the income is properly declared, etc.)
Your thinking is too limited.
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Bad news for Creighton and Arizona:
http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/25105562/call-records-link-arizona-sean-miller-creighton-greg-mcdermott-brian-bowen-ii-recruitment?platform=amp&__twitter_impression=true
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A college education is worth millions over one's life. The scholarship itself is worth hundreds of thousands. Don't like it, go play in the G League or go overseas. And when you say making billions, I hope you don't mean profit. None of the women's sports make money in aggregate and most of the men's sports don't either. Yet all those sports exist and it costs money to have them, that money comes from those other revenue streams.
Hmmm.... that bolded line sounds awfully familiar...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=47152.msg719045#msg719045
They aren't treated unfairly. They are given a $200K education...a person with a college education on average makes almost $1M more than someone without. So now we're up to $1.2M
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https://es.pn/2SqvPTa
I’m still skeptical that this leads to any decommitment from a certain player.
Hate that that the BE is now being bandied about in this mess.
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https://es.pn/2SqvPTa
I’m still skeptical that this leads to any decommitment from a certain player.
Hate that that the BE is now being bandied about in this mess.
Smh, Creighton. When the C7 asked the expansion schools to make a financial commitment to hoops, they meant downstrokes of millions of dollars, not a couple hundred large at a time.
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Hmmm.... that bolded line sounds awfully familiar...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=47152.msg719045#msg719045
Just a coincidence that every WarriorDad position today was a chicos position over the years.
Anyhoo ... what's a chicos?
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So are the Mannions going to reconsider their options or...?
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Just a coincidence that every WarriorDad position today was a chicos position over the years.
Anyhoo ... what's a chicos?
Haha it's just so very odd isn't it??
But WarriorDad is a huge Cubs fan so it simply can't be the same person.
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https://es.pn/2SGPbUj
So can Nico reopen his commitment already or...?
I know nothing will happen to Muller or AZ. Heck they’re continuing to sign 5 star prospects and sticking their middle finger up to the NCAA. But if I’m a projected one and done player and think it’s a good chance I only spend one year in college I want to know for certain I’m going to have a chance to play in an NCAA Tournament for the guy that recruited me.
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Bill Self is the poster child of the NCAA's double standard
https://sports.yahoo.com/bill-self-poster-child-ncaa-absurdity-230011367.html
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https://sports.yahoo.com/feds-give-ncaa-go-ahead-begin-investigating-certain-schools-tied-college-hoops-scandal-030502043.html
Feds give NCAA go-ahead to begin investigating schools tied to college hoops scandal
Thought they were going to have to wait until after the trials in April. Maybe we'll get Zona sanctioned in time for Nico after all.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/we-now-know-a-list-of-names-that-the-ncaa-will-investigate-following-the-fbi-investigation
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Ashton Hagans was the only name I recall us recruiting for about 5 minutes after his decommit.
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And while the blueblood bad behavior gets discussed ad nauseum in the news, BYU is quietly sanctioned:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/byu-basketball-hit-with-ncaa-sanctions/ar-BBPwIV2?li=BBnba9I (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/byu-basketball-hit-with-ncaa-sanctions/ar-BBPwIV2?li=BBnba9I)
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And while the blueblood bad behavior gets discussed ad nauseum in the news, BYU is quietly sanctioned:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/byu-basketball-hit-with-ncaa-sanctions/ar-BBPwIV2?li=BBnba9I (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/byu-basketball-hit-with-ncaa-sanctions/ar-BBPwIV2?li=BBnba9I)
That sucks. Must have been some pretty bad stuff that UCLA did for the NCAA to go all the way to Provo to swing the hammer.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-president-dont-expect-sanctions-2019-ncaa-tournament-190437017.html
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Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.
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Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-basketball-ncaa-ncaa-investigation/feds-give-ncaa-permission-to-launch-basketball-investigations-report-idUSKCN1ND02E
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Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.
They told the NCAA they can proceed with their own investigations. The NCAA is terrible and nothing will happen even with the evidence literally handed to them and out there for everyone to see.
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They told the NCAA they can proceed with their own investigations. The NCAA is terrible and nothing will happen even with the evidence literally handed to them and out there for everyone to see.
Yep, Tark was right, the Universities Presidents will look for ways not to kill the Golden Goose and just use window dressings. Watch C-State.
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-basketball-ncaa-ncaa-investigation/feds-give-ncaa-permission-to-launch-basketball-investigations-report-idUSKCN1ND02E (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-basketball-ncaa-ncaa-investigation/feds-give-ncaa-permission-to-launch-basketball-investigations-report-idUSKCN1ND02E)
I hadn't seen this. Thanks for posting. It's true that universities won't want to kill the golden goose. But they don't want coaches being indicted by the FBI in a federal bribery and fraud investigation, either. That's some seriously bad PR. Chances are they won't fix the problem -- at least as long as they insist on maintaining their amateurism model. But I expect there will be serious consequences and significant changes.
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I hadn't seen this. Thanks for posting. It's true that universities won't want to kill the golden goose. But they don't want coaches being indicted by the FBI in a federal bribery and fraud investigation, either. That's some seriously bad PR. Chances are they won't fix the problem -- at least as long as they insist on maintaining their amateurism model. But I expect there will be serious consequences and significant changes.
I don't.
Look at some of the biggest scandals in the past. Penn State, USC, Baylor, Mich St, etc.
Immediately? A lot of harsh words. 2-3 years later? Zero significant fallout.
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What is clear is that, after SMU, the NCAA will never give a program the death penalty ever again. There were incredibly strong cases to do so within the past decade at Penn State, Baylor, Louisville, Miami and UNC. However, in each and every case, the schools got off from severe punishment due to the financial impact each school would have had on their respective conferences. SMU's death penalty was a strong factor into the demise of the Southwest Conference, and effectively relegated schools like Houston, TCU and Rice to lower conferences.
When a school like Notre Dame self-reports academic misconduct, including suspending their national championship game starting quarterback for the entire season, still gets penalized and has wins taken away from the NCAA, yet UNC offered over 200 fraudulent and academically dishonest courses that featured predominantly student-athletes from the football and men's basketball programs, yet is cleared by the NCAA because "it could not conclude that the University of North Carolina violated NCAA academic rules" there is something incredibly wrong with the system, proving there is without a doubt a double standard for select institutions.
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North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.
Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."
If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?
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What is clear is that, after SMU, the NCAA will never give a program the death penalty ever again. There were incredibly strong cases to do so within the past decade at Penn State, Baylor, Louisville, Miami and UNC. However, in each and every case, the schools got off from severe punishment due to the financial impact each school would have had on their respective conferences. SMU's death penalty was a strong factor into the demise of the Southwest Conference, and effectively relegated schools like Houston, TCU and Rice to lower conferences.
When a school like Notre Dame self-reports academic misconduct, including suspending their national championship game starting quarterback for the entire season, still gets penalized and has wins taken away from the NCAA, yet UNC offered over 200 fraudulent and academically dishonest courses that featured predominantly student-athletes from the football and men's basketball programs, yet is cleared by the NCAA because "it could not conclude that the University of North Carolina violated NCAA academic rules" there is something incredibly wrong with the system, proving there is without a doubt a double standard for select institutions.
Don't underestimate the political and legal power of Big State universities.
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North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.
Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."
If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?
Yes, that why I think they want to remain Faceless and not appoint a Commissioner (As Jay Bilas has suggested) so blame can not be Focused on one position, but defused to the Association.
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https://www.theringer.com/college-basketball/2018/12/17/18144429/college-basketball-scandal-fbi-investigation
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North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.
Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."
If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?
NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.
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NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.
Two Questions: If you know the answers.
1) Can other school elect to do the same now?
2) Did UNC state why they Discontinued the classes?
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Moron
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/25779016/michigan-state-university-interim-president-john-engler-resign-comments
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Moron
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/25779016/michigan-state-university-interim-president-john-engler-resign-comments
Agreed. Not nearly as moronic as Izzo's comments. He is a great coach but came off as a dumb jock. Maybe most coaches are that and we need no not hold them up as role models.
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NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.
As stated above, UNC was not punished because the classes were offered to all students and actually had more non athletes enrolled than athletes. If you research a little deeper than some of the headlines you’ll also see that the Raleigh newspaper had two journalists on a mission to bring down UNC athletics in general- both were NC State grads. One was on a mission to get a Pulitzer and wrote stories as fact that were easily dispelled. He was in cahoots with a rogue professor who is both a racist and one who hates athletics in general and would be much happier if there were no sports teams.
Behind the scenes , UNC’s attorneys were able to provide proof of courses offered at a significant number of schools including Stanford, Michigan and even NC State where athletes were given course credit (as much as 6 credit hours) for off season conditioning and in season practice that were for athletes only and “taught” by coaches. Clearly an NCAA violation. The NCAA did NOT want to open that can of worms
As to UNC wanting to “dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes” the classes were real- not online and required a 20 plus page research paper. I will not defend and admin for grading some papers but in all schools, TA’s also grade papers.
Every school has easy or “crib” classes - even the Ivies. With a child that attended Yale I can attest to that. While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.” Every fraternity had the final exams in their exam files and the exams NEVER changed.
My senior year I took an independent study class with English professor Dr. Joseph DeFalco ( a noted Hemingway scholar at the time) that was essentially me doing independent research and turning in a lengthy research paper that I designed on an aspect of Hemingway’s novels at the end. In theory, this is what the UNC class in question wan. Most schools still offer independent study classes.
And a final note- while at MU and taking a political philosophy class (my other major) two of our better, but not star, basketball players were in the class. Come exam time both took their mid term and finals in the hall outside the classroom. I finished the midterm fairly early and walked into the hall to witness both being tutored on the exams. To me that is far worse than what UNC was accused of.
In the interest of full disclosure, I got my BA from MU in 1974 and my MA from UNC in 1976. I am a diehard “Warrior” fan but also became a UNC fan (when not playing MU) in big part due to Al’s very close friendship with Dean Smith and the man he was. I follow both schools closely, am very active in my local MU alumni group and very proud of the education I received at both schools.
One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.
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As stated above, UNC was not punished because the classes were offered to all students and actually had more non athletes enrolled than athletes. If you research a little deeper than some of the headlines you’ll also see that the Raleigh newspaper had two journalists on a mission to bring down UNC athletics in general- both were NC State grads. One was on a mission to get a Pulitzer and wrote stories as fact that were easily dispelled. He was in cahoots with a rogue professor who is both a racist and one who hates athletics in general and would be much happier if there were no sports teams.
Behind the scenes , UNC’s attorneys were able to provide proof of courses offered at a significant number of schools including Stanford, Michigan and even NC State where athletes were given course credit (as much as 6 credit hours) for off season conditioning and in season practice that were for athletes only and “taught” by coaches. Clearly an NCAA violation. The NCAA did NOT want to open that can of worms
As to UNC wanting to “dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes” the classes were real- not online and required a 20 plus page research paper. I will not defend and admin for grading some papers but in all schools, TA’s also grade papers.
Every school has easy or “crib” classes - even the Ivies. With a child that attended Yale I can attest to that. While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.” Every fraternity had the final exams in their exam files and the exams NEVER changed.
My senior year I took an independent study class with English professor Dr. Joseph DeFalco ( a noted Hemingway scholar at the time) that was essentially me doing independent research and turning in a lengthy research paper that I designed on an aspect of Hemingway’s novels at the end. In theory, this is what the UNC class in question wan. Most schools still offer independent study classes.
And a final note- while at MU and taking a political philosophy class (my other major) two of our better, but not star, basketball players were in the class. Come exam time both took their mid term and finals in the hall outside the classroom. I finished the midterm fairly early and walked into the hall to witness both being tutored on the exams. To me that is far worse than what UNC was accused of.
In the interest of full disclosure, I got my BA from MU in 1974 and my MA from UNC in 1976. I am a diehard “Warrior” fan but also became a UNC fan (when not playing MU) in big part due to Al’s very close friendship with Dean Smith and the man he was. I follow both schools closely, am very active in my local MU alumni group and very proud of the education I received at both schools.
One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.
Really appreciate the info.
The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)
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Really appreciate the info.
The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)
But it is literally not their "job" to make sure that every class offered by its members has some degree of rigor. There is nothing that empowers them to do so. And the reason is because its members don't want to give them that authority.
Their primary jobs are to sanction championship events and to regulate the recruitment and eligibility of student athletes.
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But it is literally not their "job" to make sure that every class offered by its members has some degree of rigor. There is nothing that empowers them to do so. And the reason is because its members don't want to give them that authority.
Their primary jobs are to sanction championship events and to regulate the recruitment and eligibility of student athletes.
Understood. But isn't their eligibility in question when someone presents evidence of these sham courses?
I'm not saying the NCAA should investigate randomly or anything. But when presented with evidence that calls into question athete eligibility, they should look into it.
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IIRC part of UNC's defense was that it is not the job of the NCAA to determine grades/what makes a class worthy. That is up to the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges who did put UNC on temporary probation.
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While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.”
Did Horton hear a "who?"
Horton was legendary. I was a few years behind you, but everybody on campus knew that if you needed a GPA boost, you got up before 8:00 a.m., went to a large lecture hall and listened to Horton's scratchy records on a bad record player. So long as you showed up at 8:00 a.m., religiously, and did a term paper, an "A" was almost guaranteed.
Big debate among the various Marquette factions in our family was, "How many Hortons were in your GPA?" Apart from keeping some folks in the university, not sure there was any real value to the class. That was disputed by one parent and a sibling who saw the GPA boost from the Horton experience.
Never did a Horton here but if the university was going to offer an introduction to classical music class as part of a cultural/fine arts program, then do it right.
Best Urban Marquette Legend was the student who did a nice cover, two pages of narrative and 18 blank pages in his or her term paper and turned it into Horton. Allegedly got an "A". I don't buy that one but it makes a good story!
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One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.
Perhaps it is because on a clear day, you can see the UNC campus from NC State?
Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there's a reason why Duke, UNC and NC State have a mutual hatred of each other. They're all within about a 45 minute drive of each other. Kinda like putting Marquette, Notre Dame and Wisconsin between Kenosha and Waukesha. The real question is whether UNC hates NC State as much as NC State hates UNC?
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Understood. But isn't their eligibility in question when someone presents evidence of these sham courses?
I'm not saying the NCAA should investigate randomly or anything. But when presented with evidence that calls into question athete eligibility, they should look into it.
But ultimately their eligibility rests on their ability to label the class as "sham."
The NCAA doesn't have the authority to do that. The NCAA has enough trouble doing what it is supposed to do much less do things they aren't supposed to do.
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Really appreciate the info.
The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)
Because it isn’t the NCAA’s job to do what you are stating...literally they aren’t doing that job because it isn’t their job to do.
The university is accredited to meet a standard by an accrediting agency. The NCAA cannot be the agency to determine if classes are hard enough, majors are worthwhile, etc. The NCAA is an athletic association, not an academic one.
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But ultimately their eligibility rests on their ability to label the class as "sham."
The NCAA doesn't have the authority to do that. The NCAA has enough trouble doing what it is supposed to do much less do things they aren't supposed to do.
Interesting. Apparently I have no idea what the NCAA does. (Not sure they do either).
So, the NCAA has zero oversight to the "student" part of student athlete?
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Perhaps it is because on a clear day, you can see the UNC campus from NC State?
Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there's a reason why Duke, UNC and NC State have a mutual hatred of each other. They're all within about a 45 minute drive of each other. Kinda like putting Marquette, Notre Dame and Wisconsin between Kenosha and Waukesha. The real question is whether UNC hates NC State as much as NC State hates UNC?
In my church Sunday school class, the instructor knew I was a Marquette graduate. He is a Wake Forest graduate. Maybe to test my degree of fandom he asked me if I knew who Butch Lee was. He was still happy Marquette took down UNC in the 1977 NCAA finals. In North Carolina if you are a non-UNC graduate it is "ABC" - "Anybody but Carolina."
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In my church Sunday school class, the instructor knew I was a Marquette graduate. He is a Wake Forest graduate. Maybe to test my degree of fandom he asked me is I knew who Butch Lee was. He was still happy Marquette took down UNC in the 1977 NCAA finals. In North Carolina if you are a non-UNC graduate it is "ABC" - "Anybody but Carolina."
Interesting. Is NCState the school of choice for non-alums? I know Duke doesn’t have a big following.
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Interesting. Is NCState the school of choice for non-alums? I know Duke doesn’t have a big following.
NC State is a large state school, many graduates. So, yes, I would say so. My father in law and one brother in law are NC State grads. A sister in law and brother in law are Wake Forest grads and one sister in law a UNC grad. They are not diehard sports fans though. My wife is a Davidson grad.
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Interesting. Apparently I have no idea what the NCAA does. (Not sure they do either).
So, the NCAA has zero oversight to the "student" part of student athlete?
That's probably an over-statement. The NCAA tries to make sure that the "student athlete" is as much of a "student" as the non-athlete. They want to look for special treatment as compared to non-athletes.
They really don't want to get into determining if a class is sufficiently rigorous. If the school is offering the class to all students, it's good enough. Honestly, any other approach would lead to some interesting situations. How would the NCAA deal with normal variations in the difficulty of majors or between schools. A class that might be considered a blow-off at an elite academic school might be harder than most of the course offerings at Directional State U. The NCAA isn't going to get involved in that.
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That's probably an over-statement. The NCAA tries to make sure that the "student athlete" is as much of a "student" as the non-athlete. They want to look for special treatment as compared to non-athletes.
They really don't want to get into determining if a class is sufficiently rigorous. If the school is offering the class to all students, it's good enough. Honestly, any other approach would lead to some interesting situations. How would the NCAA deal with normal variations in the difficulty of majors or between schools. A class that might be considered a blow-off at an elite academic school might be harder than most of the course offerings at Directional State U. The NCAA isn't going to get involved in that.
If your statement is true, then the NCAA should have looked into the classes that were only offered to athletes at the other schools that the UNC lawyers provided evidence of. Right?
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If your statement is true, then the NCAA should have looked into the classes that were only offered to athletes at the other schools that the UNC lawyers provided evidence of. Right?
I would think so, yes.
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If your statement is true, then the NCAA should have looked into the classes that were only offered to athletes at the other schools that the UNC lawyers provided evidence of. Right?
But that’s the rub, the classes weren’t offered to athletes only. If they were, then there might be an argument here. They were offered to everyone.
Unless I missed something, I thought none of the classes in question were open only to athletes.
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But that’s the rub, the classes weren’t offered to athletes only. If they were, then there might be an argument here. They were offered to everyone.
Unless I missed something, I thought none of the classes in question were open only to athletes.
jesmu is saying that UNC's lawyers showed examples of classes at other schools that were athlete only and asked why those weren't investigated.
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jesmu is saying that UNC's lawyers showed examples of classes at other schools that were athlete only and asked why those weren't investigated.
Ah, got it. Thanks
I have heard so often in the last few years complaints about the NCAA not coming down on UNC even thought they had no jurisdiction in the case. I assume, incorrectly, that was still the situation.
I have a number of friends that work there. They run very lean, the money goes back to the schools by and large. They aren’t equipped to be the cops people want them to be and that is partly by design of the member institutions.
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I have a number of friends that work there. They run very lean, the money goes back to the schools by and large. They aren’t equipped to be the cops people want them to be and that is partly by design of the member institutions.
And they certainly don't have the ability or the time to judge the academic worthiness of classes taken by student athletes.
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And they certainly don't have the ability or the time to judge the academic worthiness of classes taken by student athletes.
Correct
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Bump.
Mizzou got hammered in comparison to North Carolina for essentially actually having academic standards for their athletes.
The NCAA never ceases to amaze.
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Bump.
Mizzou got hammered in comparison to North Carolina for essentially actually having academic standards for their athletes.
The NCAA never ceases to amaze.
In this case it was an impermissible benefit that a student athlete received that a normal student didn’t. This would be an athletic department issue.
In the other case, the university was offering bogus classes to everyone and it’s a university issue.
UNC definitely benefitted from the technicality, but I do see a difference.
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Bump.
Mizzou got hammered in comparison to North Carolina for essentially actually having academic standards for their athletes.
The NCAA never ceases to amaze.
Simply not the same comparison at all
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In this case it was an impermissible benefit that a student athlete received that a normal student didn’t. This would be an athletic department issue.
In the other case, the university was offering bogus classes to everyone and it’s a university issue.
UNC definitely benefitted from the technicality, but I do see a difference.
Why hasn't the NCAA come down on the evidence presented in the UNC case regarding other schools and their athletes? That's what I don't understand
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https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-investigation-underway-arizonas-sean-miller-faces-complicated-future-234415126.html
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Why hasn't the NCAA come down on the evidence presented in the UNC case regarding other schools and their athletes? That's what I don't understand
Given that the list of schools was in double or triple digits (can’t remember which) and included Stanford, Michigan, and other high profile programs it seems they didn’t want to open that can of worms for fear of what else they might find.
In UNC’s case, the former UNC chancellor essentially said “our books are open” in the very beginning and as a result UNC went through a seven plus year rectal probe that seriously hurt recruiting in both basketball and football since rival coaches were promising draconian consequences coming for them. After that painful and thorough examination they actually found no violations worthy of what the ABC crowd was hoping for. The classes weren’t bogus or fake classes, they did require a lengthy research paper and were open to all students with more non athletes enrolled than athletes.
As this was going on, every other school had to feel if this is what being open and honest gets you, we will take our chances by saying “prove it.”
UNC had the evidence that would/could implicate the other schools but would not allow their attorneys to put it into their official response to the NCAA allegations. I am sure they were holding it as a trump card if the commission went against the results of the THREE previous probes that found nothing. At the same time, UNC’s attorneys anonymously dropped the info that they had in blogs and other public forums which they knew were being monitored by the NCAA as well as most other schools who were closely watching how things were playing out. It was a shrewd move by their legal team. The end result was the NCAA ruling that came out.
In all honesty the NCAA has much bigger fish to fry with regard to recruiting violations and pay to play. I don’t think the NCAA investigation is anywhere near being over and given that the current witness has decided not to accept a plea deal.....get your popcorn ready.
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Given that the list of schools was in double or triple digits (can’t remember which) and included Stanford, Michigan, and other high profile programs it seems they didn’t want to open that can of worms for fear of what else they might find.
In UNC’s case, the former UNC chancellor essentially said “our books are open” in the very beginning and as a result UNC went through a seven plus year rectal probe that seriously hurt recruiting in both basketball and football since rival coaches were promising draconian consequences coming for them. After that painful and thorough examination they actually found no violations worthy of what the ABC crowd was hoping for. The classes weren’t bogus or fake classes, they did require a lengthy research paper and were open to all students with more non athletes enrolled than athletes.
As this was going on, every other school had to feel if this is what being open and honest gets you, we will take our chances by saying “prove it.”
UNC had the evidence that would/could implicate the other schools but would not allow their attorneys to put it into their official response to the NCAA allegations. I am sure they were holding it as a trump card if the commission went against the results of the THREE previous probes that found nothing. At the same time, UNC’s attorneys anonymously dropped the info that they had in blogs and other public forums which they knew were being monitored by the NCAA as well as most other schools who were closely watching how things were playing out. It was a shrewd move by their legal team. The end result was the NCAA ruling that came out.
In all honesty the NCAA has much bigger fish to fry with regard to recruiting violations and pay to play. I don’t think the NCAA investigation is anywhere near being over and given that the current witness has decided not to accept a plea deal.....get your popcorn ready.
THis was the entirety of work done by a UNC basketball player in that so-called real class. This was the entirety of his "lengthy research paper":
On the evening of December Rosa Parks decided that she was going to sit in the white people section on the bus in Montgomery, Alabama. During this time blacks had to give up there seats to whites when more whites got on the bus. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Her and the bus driver began to talk and the conversation went like this. “Let me have those front seats” said the driver. She didn’t get up and told the driver that she was tired of giving her seat to white people. “I’m going to have you arrested,” said the driver. “You may do that,” Rosa Parks responded. Two white policemen came in and Rosa Parks asked them “why do you all push us around?” The police officer replied and said “I don’t know, but the law is the law and you’re under arrest.
He got an A- for the class. Does that sound like a real college class to you?
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Nice
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/kansas-state-fans-made-it-rain-with-fake-100-adidasbill-self-bills-and-chanted-fuck-ku (https://tinyurl.com/ydy5b9ag)
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#NicoMannion
#Decommit
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The one I really didn't like was the continuation on Ponds' and one. If Markus didn't get continuation in the first half, no way Ponds should have in the second.
This. That continuation play was a killer.
Props to Chartouny. I thought he was a difference maker on the defensive end in the second half. If this team is going to make a tourney run, we need him to be a major contributor.
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THis was the entirety of work done by a UNC basketball player in that so-called real class. This was the entirety of his "lengthy research paper":
On the evening of December Rosa Parks decided that she was going to sit in the white people section on the bus in Montgomery, Alabama. During this time blacks had to give up there seats to whites when more whites got on the bus. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Her and the bus driver began to talk and the conversation went like this. “Let me have those front seats” said the driver. She didn’t get up and told the driver that she was tired of giving her seat to white people. “I’m going to have you arrested,” said the driver. “You may do that,” Rosa Parks responded. Two white policemen came in and Rosa Parks asked them “why do you all push us around?” The police officer replied and said “I don’t know, but the law is the law and you’re under arrest.
He got an A- for the class. Does that sound like a real college class to you?
This is not a defense of UNC, but I think you're misinformed (https://slate.com/business/2014/04/the-146-word-essay-that-got-a-unc-jock-an-a-heres-the-real-story.html). Obviously, it's not college level work, but that paragraph was not an essay from one of the "paper classes" and was not the entirety of the student's work that earned him an A- for the class. And, according to the person who made it public (who was one of they key whistle blowers on the UNC scandal) it was a draft. Even the person who made that document public doesn't know what other work the athlete did to "earn" that A-. It probably doesn't help UNC's academic reputation to note that this was from a "real" class, not one of the "fake" classes that got so much attention.
Interestingly, it appears that the Rosa Parks "essay" also was blatantly plagiarized (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/31/unc-athlete-final-paper_n_5062833.html"). From Rosa Parks herself. Another strike against UNC's academic reputation.
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Former MU assistant...
@GoodmanHoops: Arizona assistant Mark Phelps has been placed on administrative leave by the school. Source close to situation told @WatchStadium they believe this is school building its case in potentially make a move with head coach Sean Miller as NCAA begins its investigation. https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1093330362934145024/photo/1
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Former MU assistant...
@GoodmanHoops: Arizona assistant Mark Phelps has been placed on administrative leave by the school. Source close to situation told @WatchStadium they believe this is school building its case in potentially make a move with head coach Sean Miller as NCAA begins its investigation. https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1093330362934145024/photo/1
Wasn’t he one of our assistants at one point.
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Wasn’t he one of our assistants at one point.
(https://i.imgur.com/UnwyDXF.gif?noredirect)
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The classes weren’t bogus or fake classes, they did require a lengthy research paper and were open to all students with more non athletes enrolled than athletes.
Are these classes still offered today by UNC?
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Former MU assistant...
@GoodmanHoops: Arizona assistant Mark Phelps has been placed on administrative leave by the school. Source close to situation told @WatchStadium they believe this is school building its case in potentially make a move with head coach Sean Miller as NCAA begins its investigation. https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1093330362934145024/photo/1
"Embattled" Sean Miller feeling the pressure at Arizona!! Wonder what Nico Mannion would do if Sean got canned or resigned.... :o
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Are these classes still offered today by UNC?
No.
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(https://i.imgur.com/UnwyDXF.gif?noredirect)
;D +1
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Former MU assistant...
@GoodmanHoops: Arizona assistant Mark Phelps has been placed on administrative leave by the school. Source close to situation told @WatchStadium they believe this is school building its case in potentially make a move with head coach Sean Miller as NCAA begins its investigation. https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1093330362934145024/photo/1
Seems unlikely Miller is coaching there next year.
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(https://i.imgur.com/UnwyDXF.gif?noredirect)
Lol. I should have read it twice instead of clicking the twitter link and the responding.
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No.
Thanks, guess it was too close to the edge to continue.
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https://twitter.com/WatchStadium/status/1093554992320008197
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Are these classes still offered today by UNC?
Both the professor and his assistant were let go so that particular class no longer exists. The AFAM program, had always been one of the more highly regarded in the country and still is today.
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https://twitter.com/WatchStadium/status/1093554992320008197
Updated now says he will be/ has been fired.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/ua/2019/02/06/arizona-wildcats-basketball-firing-assistant-coach-mark-phelps/2798016002/
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It's almost certainly Shariff O'Neal. Phelps helped him sign up for a fake online class and may have assisted in the work. Since it's Shaq's kid I doubt there was a money issue, but who the hell knows these days.
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Seems unlikely Miller is coaching there next year.
not so sure-they(sean m. et.al.) have a few layers around him taking the body blows and going down.
sean will come out with some news conference and talk about not knowing about any of this until he read it in the newspaper just like all of us ;). the pitino defense. and then go on to say that this has no place in amateur, student athletic sports programs and if this could prevent just one more assistant coach and/or program from going rogue...
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How Sean Miller, Will Wade subpoenas could lift veil on corruption in college basketball
https://sports.yahoo.com/sean-miller-will-wade-taking-witness-stand-federal-hoops-trial-lift-veil-sports-corruption-184648370.html
Trial date is April 22, 2019.
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Judge's light sentencing in first hoops corruption trial sets stage for future fireworks
https://sports.yahoo.com/judge-hands-out-light-sentences-as-college-hoops-trials-heat-up-013733569.html
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/report-lsu-head-coach-will-wade-caught-on-wiretap-discussing-an-offer-for-a-current-player
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Tsk, tsk Creighton.
Dan Wetzel @DanWetzel
In a superseding indictment filed this afternoon, federal prosecutors allege Christian Dawkins paid bribes to unnamed assistant coaches at schools located in Nebraska and Texas.
Dan Wetzel @DanWetzel
Sources say the two schools are Creighton and TCU
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/report-lsu-head-coach-will-wade-caught-on-wiretap-discussing-an-offer-for-a-current-player
Just saw this. Wow ... a head coach caught on a wire ... this is the biggest one yet, no?
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And this:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2019/03/07/lsu-fire-will-wade-miss-ncaa-tournament-after-fbi-wiretap/3095307002/
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LSU suspends Will Wade indefinitely
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/lsu-suspends-coach-will-wade-after-reports-say-he-talked-about-an-offer-he-made-to-a-recruit-on-a-wiretap/
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Tony Benford named interim head coach.
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Creighton....
https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1104185724587380737
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Gotta come down hard on LSU and Creighton for the problems at Kansas and Zona
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I'm shocked at LSU taking the ethical and high road. I wrongfully assumed an SEC school would take the Arizona and Kansas route and deny till the end. Kudos to LSU.
I just met with a good friend and KU supporter who conceded that Self is dirty. He said he will be sad to see him go but he has to.
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Gotta come down hard on LSU and Creighton for the problems at Kansas and Zona
Absolutely not absolving KU and AU, but the LSU head coach was caught on a wire directly talking about paying off a player. Gotta come down hard on him regardless of what happens with KU and AU, no?
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Why suspend the coach and not, if the story is true, the ineligible player?
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Why suspend the coach and not, if the story is true, the ineligible player?
Excellent question.
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Why suspend the coach and not, if the story is true, the ineligible player?
Cuz then they might lose, duh 🙄
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Wee run a kleen program. Got dat goin' fore us, hey?
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Sean Miller just said goodbye to Arizona fans??
https://twitter.com/MattGOAZCATS/status/1104526635309531136
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Not sure what direction schools will go in hiring. Do schools take a chance on hiring the assistant coach who lands the 5 star players? Might be a little gun shy on that.
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He knows what's on the wiretaps. Bill Self next?
Nico come on down!
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Gotta come down hard on LSU and Creighton for the problems at Kansas and Zona
I think Tark would agree.
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Sean Miller just said goodbye to Arizona fans??
https://twitter.com/MattGOAZCATS/status/1104526635309531136
Dead man walking...He might just get fired cause they suck. Zona is looking for an excuse to get rid of him other than the fact that he paid recruits. Having a bad year is a great excuse.
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Wee run a kleen program. Got dat goin' fore us, hey?
Yes, a clean program and successful on the court, too.
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Dead man walking...He might just get fired cause they suck. Zona is looking for an excuse to get rid of him other than the fact that he paid recruits. Having a bad year is a great excuse.
Kansas and Arizona firing coaches would open up two big jobs and unleash potential domino hiring everywhere.
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Why suspend the coach and not, if the story is true, the ineligible player?
They held out the player.
We just know right now that Wade is on tape making an offer, we don't know if the player took the offer. But, LSU is doing the smart thing holding out a potentially ineligible player until that is decided.
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They held out the player.
We just know right now that Wade is on tape making an offer, we don't know if the player took the offer. But, LSU is doing the smart thing holding out a potentially ineligible player until that is decided.
He's not on tape making a irrefutable offer. Might be some tortured logic involved but since the player's name is Smart, Wade can spin it all sorts of ways that will give him plausible deniability.
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Dead man walking...He might just get fired cause they suck. Zona is looking for an excuse to get rid of him other than the fact that he paid recruits. Having a bad year is a great excuse.
Not so sure about that. Going to cost a few bucks to fire him
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Not so sure about that. Going to cost a few bucks to fire him
Won't cost them anything if they can fire him for cause. Most modern coaches have clauses in their contracts that they can't run afoul of the law, NCAA, or "morality" issues. Sean Miller looks like he's going to run afoul of at least two of those which I think gets Zona out of the buy out though it will definitely go to court if Miller wants to play hardball.
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Won't cost them anything if they can fire him for cause. Most modern coaches have clauses in their contracts that they can't run afoul of the law, NCAA, or "morality" issues. Sean Miller looks like he's going to run afoul of at least two of those which I think gets Zona out of the buy out though it will definitely go to court if Miller wants to play hardball.
And maybe not.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/quirk-in-sean-millers-contract-gets-him-more-from-arizona-if-hes-fired-for-cause/
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And maybe not.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/quirk-in-sean-millers-contract-gets-him-more-from-arizona-if-hes-fired-for-cause/
and I thought Buzz's MU contact was ridiculous.
all the result of a drafting error. The UA General Council should be polishing up his or her resume for this one:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/24/drafting-error-that-could-cost-university-of-arizona-millions-if-sean-miller-is-fired/#468c4bf7522d
"A sports agent who has represented coaches in contract negotiations told me that no agent is stupid enough to ask for terms like what are found within Miller's agreement "because no school in their right mind would say yes." However, the contract is binding on the parties, and it states that it replaces all prior employment contracts and amendments between the parties."
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and I thought Buzz's MU contact was ridiculous.
all the result of a drafting error. The UA General Council should be polishing up his or her resume for this one:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/24/drafting-error-that-could-cost-university-of-arizona-millions-if-sean-miller-is-fired/#468c4bf7522d
"A sports agent who has represented coaches in contract negotiations told me that no agent is stupid enough to ask for terms like what are found within Miller's agreement "because no school in their right mind would say yes." However, the contract is binding on the parties, and it states that it replaces all prior employment contracts and amendments between the parties."
So if Arizona were to fire him without cause they would save $5M? Would that result in Miller filing a lawsuit that basically says "C'mon, everybody knows you fired me for cause because I cheated." I suppose he would not do that and he'd live with the $5M, but that would be funny.
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https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2019/3/10/18259228/nico-mannion-sean-miller-arizona-basketball-recruiting-2019-fired-wildcats-farewell-speech-asu
Smoke n mirrors?
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So if Arizona were to fire him without cause they would save $5M? Would that result in Miller filing a lawsuit that basically says "C'mon, everybody knows you fired me for cause because I cheated." I suppose he would not do that and he'd live with the $5M, but that would be funny.
UA is so screwed here if they make a change. Whatever they do Miller will do everything in his power to claim the firing was "for cause."
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I'm not so sure. Contract clauses can be void if they are shown to be "contrary to public policy", i.e. not in the public good, or illegal.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/attorney-claims-sean-miller-is-clearly-paying-players-at-arizona-but-theres-one-slight-problem
Welp. Guess we're not getting any info on Miller or Wade.
What a joke
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/attorney-claims-sean-miller-is-clearly-paying-players-at-arizona-but-theres-one-slight-problem
Welp. Guess we're not getting any info on Miller or Wade.
What a joke
This saves them from testifying, but if defense enters it as evidence, it can still be used by the NCAA. Will be interesting to see if they go after them at all as guilt seems like a foregone conclusion.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/the-only-way-to-cheat-is-to-get-11000-fedexed-to-you-in-a-shoe-like-robert-williams-and-texas-am-did
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/its-absolutely-sickening-that-every-school-reportedly-was-going-to-pay-zion-and-he-still-chose-duke
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/shocker-from-the-college-hoops-trial-rick-pitino-is-innocent-for-now
Ha
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So there are wire taps with discussions of paying for both Marvin Bagley and Zion Williamson involving schools that wound up getting neither of those guys. But I'm guessing Chicos thinks they both landed at Duke with the option of receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from other schools or going to Duke for free (despite one of the player's families filing for bankruptcy in 2008, listing their household income at $44,000.00, and selling their home in a trustee's sale - see: foreclosure - in 2011, and then living in a neighborhood where houses were valued between $750K-$1.5M).
Things that make you go "Hmm..."
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So all people would break the law/rules if given enough money? I'm not sure I believe that.
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So all people would break the law/rules if given enough money? I'm not sure I believe that.
Who is saying that?
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So all people would break the law/rules if given enough money? I'm not sure I believe that.
Just a coincidence that both these kids were offered large amounts of money to play basketball and both, given 350+ options, wind up at the very same school without taking any money. Hmm...
And then there's that whole bankrupt in Phoenix to mansion in LA status. Again, hmm...
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Just a coincidence that both these kids were offered large amounts of money to play basketball and both, given 350+ options, wind up at the very same school without taking any money. Hmm...
And then there's that whole bankrupt in Phoenix to mansion in LA status. Again, hmm...
One of these is compelling evidence for me. The other is not.
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So there are wire taps with discussions of paying for both Marvin Bagley and Zion Williamson involving schools that wound up getting neither of those guys. But I'm guessing Chicos thinks they both landed at Duke with the option of receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from other schools or going to Duke for free (despite one of the player's families filing for bankruptcy in 2008, listing their household income at $44,000.00, and selling their home in a trustee's sale - see: foreclosure - in 2011, and then living in a neighborhood where houses were valued between $750K-$1.5M).
Things that make you go "Hmm..."
Should be easy to prove.
And if it is happening, then why do we bother going after elite kids at all because we have no chance.
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Should be easy to prove.
And if it is happening, then why do we bother going after elite kids at all because we have no chance.
Because if we've learned anything the NCAA has shown that it definitely does everything it can to lay down the hammer on those cheating the game, so because Duke hasn't been punished it means they're definitely innocent.
So is Will Wade.
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And Rick Pitino. Except maybe actually, he is.
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Because if we've learned anything the NCAA has shown that it definitely does everything it can to lay down the hammer on those cheating the game, so because Duke hasn't been punished it means they're definitely innocent.
So is Will Wade.
Not really my point.....why should we go after the elite prospects, despite having Greek Freak here, beautiful new arena, etc, if they are going to land at places full of $$ that never get hammered? Seems a waste of time from a recruiting strategy.
Thought this was interesting from Mr. Bagley...doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
https://twitter.com/TeamBagley/status/1121556112891727872
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Thought this was interesting from Mr. Bagley...doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
https://twitter.com/TeamBagley/status/1121556112891727872
The same Mr Bagley that took hundreds of thousands of dollars from Nike to fund an AAU program that only existed to promote his son? Yeah...he NEVER had his hands out 🙄😂🤣
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The same Mr Bagley that took hundreds of thousands of dollars from Nike to fund an AAU program that only existed to promote his son? Yeah...he NEVER had his hands out 🙄😂🤣
Yup. That’s the one. The one that had a family household income of $44K, filed for bankruptcy, and had a foreclosed home...and then was living in a neighborhood where houses were valued between $750K and $1.5M.
Same “MF” guy.
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Terrible news for Sean miller today. Wiretaps caught a conversation in which it was stated (by a 3rd party-not Miller) that “Sean had fronted” the $100K supposedly payed to Ayton
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Terrible news for Sean miller today. Wiretaps caught a conversation in which it was stated (by a 3rd party-not Miller) that “Sean had fronted” the $100K supposedly payed to Ayton
What an a$$ to call BS on ESPN for reporting this a year ago. Miller is a jerk for calling a reporter's honesty into question when he knew it was true.
I assume this is the end of Sean Miller in college basketball. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, NOT.
This might be terrible for Miller, but its good for college basketball.
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What an a$$ to call BS on ESPN for reporting this a year ago. Miller is a jerk for calling a reporter's honesty into question when he knew it was true.
I assume this is the end of Sean Miller in college basketball. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, NOT.
This might be terrible for Miller, but its good for college basketball.
I guess one could say Sean Miller is White Trash
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I guess one could say Sean Miller is White Trash
Ha! I like it. Assuming you're not defending Miller.
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I'll believe the NCAA does anything to any of these coaches when...well, they actually do something. For once.
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I'll believe the NCAA does anything to any of these coaches when...well, they actually do something. For once.
For once?
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For once?
For once.
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Because if we've learned anything the NCAA has shown that it definitely does everything it can to lay down the hammer on those cheating the game, so because Duke hasn't been punished it means they're definitely innocent.
So is Will Wade.
You should know. He is your namesake, after all.
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For once.
So coaches have never been given show cause penalties lasting years?
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What an a$$ to call BS on ESPN for reporting this a year ago. Miller is a jerk for calling a reporter's honesty into question when he knew it was true.
I assume this is the end of Sean Miller in college basketball. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, NOT.
This might be terrible for Miller, but its good for college basketball.
Took a page outta da Ryan Braun manual of bullchttin', aina?
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What an a$$ to call BS on ESPN for reporting this a year ago. Miller is a jerk for calling a reporter's honesty into question when he knew it was true.
I assume this is the end of Sean Miller in college basketball. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, NOT.
This might be terrible for Miller, but its good for college basketball.
miller is white knuckling it, grabbing for anything he can. playing on a "reporters" honesty unfortunately or not, works in some public opinion circles.
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Thing is, agree or disagree with it, Miller can spin this as "there's no solid proof", and even though we all know better, he's right, there isn't. That MIGHT be enough for Arizona to keep him, but I'm not sure it's going to help him with the NCAA(if they ever get around to enforcing any of this).
I mean at worst, Miller should get fired because he should have known about this right?? A Head coach is responsible for everything that goes on in his program according to the NCAA, just ask Pitino.
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Arizona has every reason to wait at this point. The more that comes out, the more that a "for cause" firing becomes a solid case, and the more chance they get to hold onto their freshman class. It's too late for them to do a full-fledged coaching search anyway. They can put Mark Phelps in there as interim, and he would have no shot at the regular job anyway. Then they can do a search next year.
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Arizona has every reason to wait at this point. The more that comes out, the more that a "for cause" firing becomes a solid case, and the more chance they get to hold onto their freshman class. It's too late for them to do a full-fledged coaching search anyway. They can put Mark Phelps in there as interim, and he would have no shot at the regular job anyway. Then they can do a search next year.
Mark Phelps has already been fired for other infractions IIRC
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Mark Phelps has already been fired for other infractions IIRC
That is correct
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Mark Phelps has already been fired for other infractions IIRC
Yeah I forgot about that.
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What an a$$ to call BS on ESPN for reporting this a year ago. Miller is a jerk for calling a reporter's honesty into question when he knew it was true.
This has been going on forever. Somebody doesn't like the truth, so he/she shoots the messenger.
Good work by the reporter. I hope Miller crashes and burns, and he takes his program down with him.
Nico ... we have scholarships open, baby!
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Sean Miller's nightmare keeps getting worse everyday. I'm beginning to think that UA fires him soon and doesn't wait for the NCAA investigation to start. Might be in Miller's best interest to go quickly and quietly to limit the information releases that could tarnish his reputation even more (if that's possible).
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He won't leave quietly with the amount of money still on the table.
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Sean Miller's nightmare keeps getting worse everyday. I'm beginning to think that UA fires him soon and doesn't wait for the NCAA investigation to start. Might be in Miller's best interest to go quickly and quietly to limit the information releases that could tarnish his reputation even more (if that's possible).
The problem is...there is ZERO proof..that will be his argument. Just the word of a con man. Now, we here all know better, but Miller could/will make that argument.
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The problem is...there is ZERO proof..that will be his argument. Just the word of a con man. Now, we here all know better, but Miller could/will make that argument.
head coach accountability will get him.
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The problem is...there is ZERO proof..that will be his argument. Just the word of a con man. Now, we here all know better, but Miller could/will make that argument.
Maybe, but there more wire tap recording that could be released and eventually turned over to the NCAA.
Pitino claims to this day that there is no evidence of him being involved in payments to recruits and yet Louisville sent him packing and no other school will touch him.
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The problem is...there is ZERO proof..that will be his argument. Just the word of a con man. Now, we here all know better, but Miller could/will make that argument.
Well his assistant coach (who had been with Miller for 10+ years) was on tape saying Miller was paying Ayton $10k a month.
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Wasn't Mark Phelps an assistant under Miller?
Squirmy.
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Well his assistant coach (who had been with Miller for 10+ years) was on tape saying Miller was paying Ayton $10k a month.
From eSPN:
Federal prosecutors on Wednesday played a recording to the jury of a phone call in which former Arizona assistant Emanuel "Book" Richardson told aspiring agent Christian Dawkins that Wildcats coach Sean Miller was paying star center Deandre Ayton $10,000 per month while he was enrolled there.
Prosecutors played the call, which was intercepted by wiretaps on June 20, 2017, to the jury near the end of their case.
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Well his assistant coach (who had been with Miller for 10+ years) was on tape saying Miller was paying Ayton $10k a month.
Does anyone have tape of Miller? If Miller's voice is nowhere to be heard then it will be difficult to get him without stronger evidence.
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Again, Arizona IMO is gathering enough evidence to fire him for cause. He may not be prosecuted like others, but he very likely will be out of a job soon.
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Wasn't there something wonky with Miller's contact where he actually is owed more money if he's fired for cause then if he's just fired? I remember hearing that somewhere
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Wasn't there something wonky with Miller's contact where he actually is owed more money if he's fired for cause then if he's just fired? I remember hearing that somewhere
No, if he is fired for cause he loses a TON of money. His entire "longevity fund," which is currently worth $4 million plus. This is likely why Arizona is being real careful.
https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/sean-miller-s-revised-contract-terms-include-threat-of-a/article_2dee0bde-5b01-57bc-ad94-dcf3d5a761a0.html
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Miller didn't do anything illegal by paying Ayton; he won't be prosecuted for that. Miller can give his money to whomever he wants (however, he's likely liable for gift taxes on that money, unless he can claim that is was "miscellaneous income" for Ayton, in which case Ayton is a tax dodger if he failed to report it).
If what Dawkins/Richardson said is true, then Miller has committed an NCAA violation. The NCAA should come down hard on Arizona, and Arizona should come down hard on Miller. This investigation will probably take years and result in the death penalty for Grand Canyon University.
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Miller didn't do anything illegal by paying Ayton; he won't be prosecuted for that. Miller can give his money to whomever he wants
Then why are the feds involved in this at all?
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Miller didn't do anything illegal by paying Ayton; he won't be prosecuted for that. Miller can give his money to whomever he wants (however, he's likely liable for gift taxes on that money, unless he can claim that is was "miscellaneous income" for Ayton, in which case Ayton is a tax dodger if he failed to report it).
If what Dawkins/Richardson said is true, then Miller has committed an NCAA violation. The NCAA should come down hard on Arizona, and Arizona should come down hard on Miller. This investigation will probably take years and result in the death penalty for Grand Canyon University.
That's not true according to tax law. You can't just give unlimited gifts to whomever you choose without paying taxes on it. Maybe this isn't current, but at least that's what the IRS says.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-31.pdf
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Since our mascot is the Golden Eagles, shouldn't bird law be the appropriate precedent?
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Then why are the feds involved in this at all?
Tax fraud is a federal crime.
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Then why are the feds involved in this at all?
Are you following this story at all? There has been multiple convictions of federal crimes and more to come. The feds don't don't mess around and go fishing for criminals, their conviction rate is over 90%.
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Are you following this story at all? There has been multiple convictions of federal crimes and more to come. The feds don't don't mess around and go fishing for criminals, their conviction rate is over 90%.
Are you following the thread at all? I was asking mom why the feds are involved at all if "Miller didn't do anything illegal by paying Ayton." A question which she never answered.
You are 100% right that the feds don't get involved unless its serious. That's the point I was making through my question.
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Are you following the thread at all? I was asking mom why the feds are involved at all if "Miller didn't do anything illegal by paying Ayton." A question which she never answered.
You are 100% right that the feds don't get involved unless its serious. That's the point I was making through my question.
My apologies. I was wrong. You made a great point.
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NCAA has formally notified Arizona it is opening an investigation into the men’s basketball program.
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Not good for AZ. Thanks Cheeks!
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My apologies. I was wrong.
Circle the date on the calendar! A Scoop first!
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ruh-roh!!
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26668686/ncaa-launches-investigation-arizona-program
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ruh-roh!!
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26668686/ncaa-launches-investigation-arizona-program
Not so much...
https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1124846817491992578
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Not so much...
https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1124846817491992578
I don't believe this. If true it's just a matter of time before Arizona is under investigation. Good friends who are UofA alum know that Miller is guilty.
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I don't believe this. If true it's just a matter of time before Arizona is under investigation. Good friends who are UofA alum know that Miller is guilty.
EVERYONE knows he's guilty...except a lot of AZ fans, and apparently the AD and president. That's the only reason he still has a job.
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EVERYONE knows he's guilty...except a lot of AZ fans, and apparently the AD and president. That's the only reason he still has a job.
Not so sure about that. There are millions of dollars in payments due Miller if this is not handled correctly. Administration and Trustees are being very careful.
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Not so much...
https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1124846817491992578
That really says there is no NEW investigation. The previous investigation is still ongoing? probably. New focus on the old investigation? maybe.
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So when does Northern Arizona or Grand Canyon U or some other Arizona school go on probation for this?
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So when does Northern Arizona or Grand Canyon U or some other Arizona school go on probation for this?
I think C State hasn't met their Quota yet.
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Not so sure about that. There are millions of dollars in payments due Miller if this is not handled correctly. Administration and Trustees are being very careful.
I mean all the NCAA has to do is slap them with "lack of institutional control" which seems pretty much a foregone conclusion, and he has to go, right?? Heck, If I were Arizona, I'd get out ahead of the mob, and fire him and cite whatever NCAA bylaw it is that says the Head Coach is responsible for knowing everything that goes on in his program. That's essentially what got Pitino fired.
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Uh oh...
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/
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Uh oh...
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/
Someone tell Nico Mannion we still have a scholarship open.
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Someone tell Nico Mannion we still have a scholarship open.
Nico will be long gone from Arizona before any actual punishments take effect.
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I took a quick look at the AZ and KU boards; lot's of very angry fans who want the NCAA disbanded and some resigned to the probable outcome of post season bans and coaches being fired. I love the few that "know" their school did nothing wrong and don't understand why other posters are worried at all.
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I took a quick look at the AZ and KU boards; lot's of very angry fans who want the NCAA disbanded and some resigned to the probable outcome of post season bans and coaches being fired. I love the few that "know" their school did nothing wrong and don't understand why other posters are worried at all.
The only thing that has me concerned that AZ and KU MIGHT go unscathed, or at least get minor sanctions is the article says "Wilcox said only those schools involved in eligibility issues would be impacted".
Did either KU or ARZ have players with Eligibility issues?? I guess DeSousa played a few games the one year, right?? But his guardian took $2500. What's the worst that happens to them in that instance?? Maybe a loss of a scholarship. I don't see(would love it though) a postseason ban.
I sure as hell hope this isn't all tough talk by the NCAA and the hammer really comes down. Although, even if they do, doubtful anything really happens to the shcools this year, and in KU and ARZ's case I think that's what their fans want to avoid the most because they see their teams as legit national title contenders. At least KU does.
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I mean, Ayton should've been ineligible based on what we know. Same for Alkins & Trier. I'm not sure Kansas will be the other. They reinstated De Sousa and Preston never played. Still seems like Auburn, LSU, Louisville, & Oregon are likely to be named. Maybe the Cards are the other "major program" and NC State gets caught up.
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I mean, Ayton should've been ineligible based on what we know. Same for Alkins & Trier. I'm not sure Kansas will be the other. They reinstated De Sousa and Preston never played. Still seems like Auburn, LSU, Louisville, & Oregon are likely to be named. Maybe the Cards are the other "major program" and NC State gets caught up.
Where they may nail Kansas is on Self. Asking and directing for bribes to players. No-one officially ineligible, but major, major violations for Kansas.
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I dunno.
I'll believe one of these big-time coaches will be harshly punished when I see it.
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Where they may nail Kansas is on Self. Asking and directing for bribes to players. No-one officially ineligible, but major, major violations for Kansas.
But that was never submitted as evidence in the trial(s), so the NCAA can't use that.
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I 'ii believe it when it happens. I'm in Tark's camp on this, maybe C-State has to duck, but the Golden Goose wouldn't be bruised maybe it's feathers will be ruffled a little.
Hope I'm wrong.
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I dunno.
I'll believe one of these big-time coaches will be harshly punished when I see it.
Richard Pitino
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Richard Pitino
Good catch, chicos.
I think Pitino might still be there if he didn't have so much other baggage, but he certainly was punished for his role in this scandal.
Now let's see who else ... maybe even somebody who didn't hire hookers for his players.
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Will Wade with another high quality recruit to commit.
#cheatersprosper
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I took a quick look at the AZ and KU boards; lot's of very angry fans who want the NCAA disbanded and some resigned to the probable outcome of post season bans and coaches being fired. I love the few that "know" their school did nothing wrong and don't understand why other posters are worried at all.
I-L-L.......I-N-I
(Circa 1990s)
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Richard Pitino
Is being sent to Minnesota now considered a punishment?
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Is being sent to Minnesota now considered a punishment?
Richard Andrew Pitino
Former head coach Louisville Cardinals
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NC ST hit with two Level 1 allegations and one level II
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1149077324316467201
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NC ST hit with two Level 1 allegations and one level II
https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1149077324316467201
NCAA must be really mad at Arizona and Louisville to come down this hard on NC State.
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NCAA must be really mad at Arizona and Louisville to come down this hard on NC State.
Yep. Classic.
UNC's violations were 10x as bad.
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NCAA must be really mad at Arizona and Louisville to come down this hard on NC State.
I wouldn't say they are coming down hard...I bet little of anything comes from it as far as penalties go. Probably some loss of scholarships and that's about it. Everyone that was involved with this is gone. I personally don't think that should matter, but it will I think.
Just as I figured...the NCAA is toothless, what a sham. Hit the Coaches(meaningless), but not the programs itself.
https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article232511232.html
Somewhere, Bill Self and Sean Miller are raising a beer in celebration knowing their teams will still get to compete for(and maybe even win) a National Championship this next year. Absolute joke, but knew it was coming.
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I wouldn't say they are coming down hard...I bet little of anything comes from it as far as penalties go. Probably some loss of scholarships and that's about it. Everyone that was involved with this is gone. I personally don't think that should matter, but it will I think.
Just as I figured...the NCAA is toothless, what a sham. Hit the Coaches(meaningless), but not the programs itself.
https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article232511232.html
Somewhere, Bill Self and Sean Miller are raising a beer in celebration knowing their teams will still get to compete for(and maybe even win) a National Championship this next year. Absolute joke, but knew it was coming.
Did you even read the article? All of the blame and consequences for paying players are on the coaches. I agree that the schools are getting off easy, but the coaches are not.
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Honestly think that the NCAA is scared of hitting programs too hard now considering all it'd take would be two or three major conferences breaking off to drastically alter the money and influence the ncaa has.
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Yep. Classic.
UNC's violations were 10x as bad.
Not really, and don't forget that UNC had been hit by the NCAA a few years earlier (2011, I believe) for agent and academic issues in football (the insinuation was clear in the violation report that the tutor was sleeping with players). One violation cited was the tutor circled mistakes a player was repeatedly making on a paper - physically marking up the paper was "academic dishonesty."
The thing with the classes is that every student had access to them. They were particularly popular amongst frats. That fact got UNC out of NCAA sanctions as they were not providing a special benefit. An extra benefit is only something that is made available to athletes and not either the entire student body or another designated group. UNC's issue was academic and therefore this fell under the jurisdiction of their accreditation body. If it were proven to be only athletes given access to this class then they would have triggered an extra benefits case.
The NCAA has hit big schools repeatedly too. The old Tarkanian line was just him being bitter that he was rightfully investigated. USC football, Alabama football, Minnesota basketball, Michigan football and basketball, Michigan State football, Ohio State football, Syracuse basketball, UConn basketball, Washington football and Indiana basketball are examples I can think of immediately where a big time program was hit and hit hard for violations. The reason smaller programs get hit is lack of resources and oversight. Ohio State has 10 compliance officers, USC now has 16, smaller programs have one or two.
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Not really, and don't forget that UNC had been hit by the NCAA a few years earlier (2011, I believe) for agent and academic issues in football (the insinuation was clear in the violation report that the tutor was sleeping with players). One violation cited was the tutor circled mistakes a player was repeatedly making on a paper - physically marking up the paper was "academic dishonesty."
The thing with the classes is that every student had access to them. They were particularly popular amongst frats. That fact got UNC out of NCAA sanctions as they were not providing a special benefit. An extra benefit is only something that is made available to athletes and not either the entire student body or another designated group. UNC's issue was academic and therefore this fell under the jurisdiction of their accreditation body. If it were proven to be only athletes given access to this class then they would have triggered an extra benefits case.
The NCAA has hit big schools repeatedly too. The old Tarkanian line was just him being bitter that he was rightfully investigated. USC football, Alabama football, Minnesota basketball, Michigan football and basketball, Michigan State football, Ohio State football, Syracuse basketball, UConn basketball, Washington football and Indiana basketball are examples I can think of immediately where a big time program was hit and hit hard for violations. The reason smaller programs get hit is lack of resources and oversight. Ohio State has 10 compliance officers, USC now has 16, smaller programs have one or two.
I'd be willing to bet when these other schools get their level 1 violations, like Arizona and KU, there will be no postseason bans(even thought there should be at least one if not multiple). Nothing else really matters, and makes the whole thing a joke.
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I'd be willing to bet when these other schools get their level 1 violations, like Arizona and KU, there will be no postseason bans(even thought there should be at least one if not multiple). Nothing else really matters, and makes the whole thing a joke.
Louisville got one, why wouldn’t these schools?
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Louisville got one, why wouldn’t these schools?
Then there was that University of Miami investigation...
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Honestly think that the NCAA is scared of hitting programs too hard now considering all it'd take would be two or three major conferences breaking off to drastically alter the money and influence the ncaa has.
The ncaa money that comes from the tv contracts are tied to the ncaa. Sure, some schools or conferences could break off but it would require brand new media deals because the money stays with the ncaa. Don’t forget the academic types at universities already have a stern eye to the athletic side.
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Louisville got one, why wouldn’t these schools?
They self imposed that
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The ncaa money that comes from the tv contracts are tied to the ncaa. Sure, some schools or conferences could break off but it would require brand new media deals because the money stays with the ncaa. Don’t forget the academic types at universities already have a stern eye to the athletic side.
The football money doesn't.
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Then there was that University of Miami investigation...
Yep, the NCAA was overly aggressive in the investigation in trying to nail them wrote answers for Shapiro, using records from his court testimony. That dude (who was also on the USC investigation and added, impermissibly, sanctions for them hiring Lane Kiffin) got fired.
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OT: Last week the NCAA was checking out the Las Vegas Stadium being built for the Raiders. I would love to see MU in the Final Four here someday!
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???
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/because-of-the-fbi-investigation-auburn-had-secret-sanctions-and-werent-allowed-to-do-any-sort-of-recruiting-wait-huh
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???
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/because-of-the-fbi-investigation-auburn-had-secret-sanctions-and-werent-allowed-to-do-any-sort-of-recruiting-wait-huh
They author doesn't seem to realize they were self-imposed.
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???
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/because-of-the-fbi-investigation-auburn-had-secret-sanctions-and-werent-allowed-to-do-any-sort-of-recruiting-wait-huh
Yet they had a visit and got a commit during that window of time. Kind of strange isn't it?
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They author doesn't seem to realize they were self-imposed.
What a joke. I'll let you decide if I'm referring to the publication or the self-imposed sanctions
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What a joke. I'll let you decide if I'm referring to the publication or the self-imposed sanctions
The correct answer is both. Fortunately the “penalty” is self imposed may or may not get any credit from the NCAA...my personal opinion is that they were recruiting anyway and to suggest they weren’t horsehockey. The writer is a complete joke and continues to be.
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Double secret probation
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Holy crap people.
Fine.
Is this one better?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/al.com/auburnbasketball/2019/08/auburn-basketball-had-severe-self-imposed-sanctions-from-2017-it-never-made-public.html%3foutputType=amp
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Holy crap people.
Fine.
Is this one better?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/al.com/auburnbasketball/2019/08/auburn-basketball-had-severe-self-imposed-sanctions-from-2017-it-never-made-public.html%3foutputType=amp
I was wrong on the no visits. The visit I was looking at was in 2019. I misread both articles as the self-ban was from 18-19, not the 17-18 that the articles state.
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How is this timeline going?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/amp/
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How is this timeline going?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/amp/
There's some progress, Utah was punished for Arizona's infractions.
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How is this timeline going?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/at-least-six-college-basketball-programs-will-be-notified-of-major-ncaa-violations-by-this-summer/amp/
Death to the NCAA
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There's some progress, Utah was punished for Arizona's infractions.
Indeed. Nice to know that Utah and NC State will be punished for the rampant cheating and complete disregard to rules of Arizona and UNC. At least they're getting the conferences right. Progress!
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Indeed. Nice to know that Utah and NC State will be punished for the rampant cheating and complete disregard to rules of Arizona and UNC. At least they're getting the conferences right. Progress!
Guess we just ignore the major penalties over the years to USC football (program hasn’t been the same since), Louisville basketball, Auburn, Tennessee, etc, etc
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Guess we just ignore the major penalties over the years to USC football (program hasn’t been the same since), Louisville basketball, Auburn, Tennessee, etc, etc
Well dang you’re right. They punished programs years ago so we should all just ignore that they claimed there would be 2 “major programs” notified of “major violations” by the end of July and 6 programs by the end of the summer. We have multiple college coaches on FBI wire taps talking about paying players. And the NCAA sits in their hands...
But it’s okay! USC football was penalized a decade ago! Good job NCAA!
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Well dang you’re right. They punished programs years ago so we should all just ignore that they claimed there would be 2 “major programs” notified of “major violations” by the end of July and 6 programs by the end of the summer. We have multiple college coaches on FBI wire taps talking about paying players. And the NCAA sits in their hands...
But it’s okay! USC football was penalized a decade ago! Good job NCAA!
End of Summer where I live is around Sept 21st. Did they say end of July? Maybe they did, timelines can change. Wheels of justice are often slow, that doesn’t mean justice cannot be reached.
The bigger point was major programs have been penalized and will continue to be, despite the rehash of Tark’s Quote or versions of it by the same people over and over.
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The bigger point was major programs have been penalized and will continue to be, despite the rehash of Tark’s Quote or versions of it by the same people over and over.
Agree with penalized. Degree of penalized open for Debate.
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End of Summer where I live is around Sept 21st. Did they say end of July? Maybe they did, timelines can change. Wheels of justice are often slow, that doesn’t mean justice cannot be reached.
The bigger point was major programs have been penalized and will continue to be, despite the rehash of Tark’s Quote or versions of it by the same people over and over.
I hope to be wrong, Cheeks. In any other business, Miller, Self, Wade, Pearl, etc. would be gone at this point.
Despite your teat suckling protestations on the divinity of the NCAA, their track record, if held up to your T-Shirtgate standards, is at the least, suspect. They publicly promised teeth this time, let’s see it. I anxiously await the Autumn Solstice, yet I am sipping on my Flat Tire in expectation.
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Agree with penalized. Degree of penalized open for Debate.
USC has never been the same in football.
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I hope to be wrong, Cheeks. In any other business, Miller, Self, Wade, Pearl, etc. would be gone at this point.
Despite your teat suckling protestations on the divinity of the NCAA, their track record, if held up to your T-Shirtgate standards, is at the least, suspect. They publicly promised teeth this time, let’s see it. I anxiously await the Autumn Solstice, yet I am sipping on my Flat Tire in expectation.
The NCAA has many flaws, so despite your absurd claims I do acknowledge those flaws. They have zero subpoena power....none. The have very small enforcement resources. I’d love for them to have much more, the members don’t. Timelines are great, but at the end of the day you need evidence. As for your claims about business, maybe. I’m in the entertainment and sports industry and straight as an arrow when it comes to biz stuff....I have seen, however, some crap go on over 20+ Years that I would have thought fireable but was ignored so I don’t get surprised by anything. Sometimes schools firing coaches will lead to even more damage because they spill even more beans.
As for t-Shirt gate...LOL. Yeah, add a bit more to that.
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USC has n ever been the same in football.
That not a big enough of a Brush for me.
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USC has never been the same in football.
Hey, forget that, or that the NCAA was found as having overstepped their bounds trying to nail them. Or that they were caught doing the same thing with Miami because they wanted to tear that program apart. That’s just semantics. Let’s instead repeat a quote one from one of then sleaziest coaches in sports history.
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USC has never been the same in football.
You’re right. But they’ve been pretty good. And that’s with being run by an inept AD and head coach.
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You’re right. But they’ve been pretty good. And that’s with being run by an inept AD and head coach.
???
They have had 4 coaches since 2010. 2 AD’s. Been to 6 bowl games, only one a Rose Bowl and lost 3 of 6 bowl games. They finished with a losing season last year which would be like Duke basketball finishing with a losing season. Only one PAC 12 championship. Haden was the AD for most of the post sanctions, not Swann.
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That not a big enough of a Brush for me.
Louisville has theirmchampionshipmrevoked only a few years ago.
Major programs currently on NCAA probation at the moment to various degrees. Nine of them, in my opinion with the exception of Oregon basketball, is as good as they were, they took a step back because of the penalties.
Syracuse basketball
BYU basketball
Maryland basketball
Oregon football and basketball
UCONN basketball
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Louisville has theirmchampionshipmrevoked only a few years ago.
Major programs currently on NCAA probation at the moment to various degrees. Nine of them, in my opinion with the exception of Oregon basketball, is as good as they were, they took a step back because of the penalties.
Syracuse basketball
BYU basketball
Maryland basketball
Oregon football and basketball
UCONN basketball
Miami Football
Cam Newton’s dad
UNC academics
tOSU football
Bama football
Izzo getting one game for paying Dawson’s AAU coach
Duke jewelry
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Miami Football
Cam Newton’s dad
UNC academics
tOSU football
Bama football
Izzo getting one game for paying Dawson’s AAU coach
Duke jewelry
You know the NCAA investigator on the Miami case was fired because he overstepped his bounds and used impermissible methods to get information he couldn’t legally get out of Shapiro because they were desperate to nail them, right? Same guy who was found to have overstepped his bounds in the USC investigation. Fact.
UNC academics. Not an issue under NCAA jurisdiction. Fact. UNC had been hit for academic issues a few years involving a single tutor a few years prior though. Fact.
OSU football. Coach fired, players suspended. Traded personal awards for goods like tattoos. Facts.
Bama football, Just making up stuff now?
Newton’s dad. Unfortunately, if money didn’t change hands there’s no violation. I didn’t realize Newton played for Mississippi State anyway.
Izzo. Paid a guy who was a qualified coach to be a camp coach, normal procedure for decades. Compliance missed it enforcing the new rule in it’s first year. Harsh suspension but a suspension nonetheless. Fact.
Duke jewelry. Don’t know what the outcome was, but you cannot fault an entire program (which included our current coach) when a player goes home and gets special treatment on a loan. Fact.
Nothing but conjecture here. Just angry that outcomes to your perceived “facts” didn’t turn out as you thought they should, despite your lack of access to evidence.
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You know the NCAA investigator on the Miami case was fired because he overstepped his bounds and used impermissible methods to get information he couldn’t legally get out of Shapiro because they were desperate to nail them, right? Same guy who was found to have overstepped his bounds in the USC investigation. Fact.
UNC academics. Not an issue under NCAA jurisdiction. Fact. UNC had been hit for academic issues a few years involving a single tutor a few years prior though. Fact.
OSU football. Coach fired, players suspended. Traded personal awards for goods like tattoos. Facts.
Bama football, Just making up stuff now?
Newton’s dad. Unfortunately, if money didn’t change hands there’s no violation. I didn’t realize Newton played for Mississippi State anyway.
Izzo. Paid a guy who was a qualified coach to be a camp coach, normal procedure for decades. Compliance missed it enforcing the new rule in it’s first year. Harsh suspension but a suspension nonetheless. Fact.
Duke jewelry. Don’t know what the outcome was, but you cannot fault an entire program (which included our current coach) when a player goes home and gets special treatment on a loan. Fact.
Nothing but conjecture here. Just angry that outcomes to your perceived “facts” didn’t turn out as you thought they should, despite your lack of access to evidence.
Lots of excuses there Billy.
You can start here on Bama
https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/alabama%27s-long-history-unpunished-ncaa-violations-under-nick-saban
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Miami Football
Cam Newton’s dad
UNC academics
tOSU football
Bama football
Izzo getting one game for paying Dawson’s AAU coach
Duke jewelry
UNC you keep bringing up erroneously
Duke...were they guilty of the jewelry situation? You need evidence
Etc
I gave you plenty of examples of major programs hit and some hit very hard. You’re right, not all are punished just like the FBI, police, sheriffs, etc don’t always capture or find enough actual evidence to nail all the guilty parties. And the NCAA has nowhere near the power or resources those entities have.
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Lots of excuses there Billy.
You can start here on Bama
https://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/alabama%27s-long-history-unpunished-ncaa-violations-under-nick-saban
Awesome source....fantastic. LOL. Most of the article is “accused”.....”coaches think they might be cheating”, etc. Ok, well there needs to be actual evidence.
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I think it could be fairly argued that the penalties have not been puinitive enough to dissuade repeat offenses or others from breaking rules.
I honestly feel (not know) that schools like Louisville, USC, Arizona, most of the SEC, etc. have done an informal cost benefit analysis of cheating to improve their teams and either outright support cheating or consciously look the other way in the presence of cheating.
Based upon the benefits of their unethical activities: access to better conferences, national championships, more money, increased national profile for the school, etc., I think their analysis was/is correct. The cost is not that significant.
The most egregious example of this (IMO) is Baylor. A traditionally pathetic football and basketball school some 15 or 20 years ago decided it wanted to raise its profile, increase donations, generate more applications, etc. Next thing you know Baylor is good in sports. The money is pouring in. We come to find out that some 50+ women have been raped and there is systematic cover up reaching all the way to the university president. They still have new facilities and cashing BXII and NCAA checks.
How has Baylor been punished?
Also, Louisville, cheated under Pitino, got an ACC invite, got moderately punished but still get the $40MM per year from the ACC going forward. No significant penalties and looking at a top 10 team this year.
These are but two of dozens of stories of how it pays to cheat. From a pure "cost/benefit" argument, the answer is clear. (Like the formula for how car companies decide to issue a recall presented in 'Fight Club')
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Awesome source....fantastic. LOL. Most of the article is “accused”.....”coaches think they might be cheating”, etc. Ok, well there needs to be actual evidence.
Wait, you are answering for Billy again? But since I have you, it’s my job now to provide evidence? I thought that is the NCAAs?
Listen, just about every sports governing body has been proven corrupt. It’s the fox and the hen house. That’s the history. When you give Juan Anderson three games for attending a Brewers game with his roommate and Tom Izzo one non-con game for illegally paying an AAU coach and nothing for covered up rapes, then you have lost credibility as an organization. If the NCAA really cared they would beef up or outsource the staff instead of offering up lame excuses.
They have the chance to prove me wrong in the coming days. I remain doubtful.
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Interesting article today that directly addresses the commission, the NCAA and the whole UNC academic fraud thing ...
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article233693507.html
From the article:
The NCAA this week quietly dropped a recommended reform that would have given the association more authority to handle the kind of academic misconduct that left dozens of athletes at UNC-Chapel Hill with subpar educations.
Two NCAA panels, including one led by former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, had called for the NCAA to reform a rule that lets member schools make the call on what constitutes academic fraud on their campuses. UNC cited that rule to escape NCAA sanctions by contending classes that never met and had provided high grades for term papers regardless of quality were legitimate.
That outcome in October 2017 drew sustained national scorn. Months later, the NCAA formed an academic integrity working group that recommended the NCAA create a bylaw that expanded its infractions committee’s reach for egregious academic misconduct cases.
But at a meeting this week, the NCAA’s board of directors for the Division I schools that include big-money conferences such as the ACC and SEC decided not to pursue the reform. That decision wasn’t included in an NCAA news release Wednesday that announced the board “seeks to shore up academic integrity rules.”
In other words, the NCAA didn't want to know about the UNC fraud ... the NCAA doesn't want to know about such cases in the future ... and the NCAA didn't want everybody to know that they don't want to know!
In rejecting the call by the Rice Commission to enact rules to enact punishment for future academic fraud, the NCAA is "trusting" its member institutions to keep this from happening again.
Yeah, because what school would ever cheat at academics to gain an advantage in sports?
Several experts knowledgeable about NCAA rules and enforcement have said the UNC academic fraud case was not necessarily outside the NCAA's "jurisdiction." They believe the NCAA could have gone after UNC for "lack of institutional control" but simply chose not to -- possibly because they didn't want to go after one of the top basketball programs in the country, and possibly because didn't want to deal with lawsuits that might have come out of it.
IMHO, what UNC did was worse than any other violation I have seen discussed in this thread. Paying players goes to amateurism, which is a sham anyway. Academic fraud? That goes right to the heart of what every university's mission is supposed to be.
The idea that the NCAA cares primarily about its basketball and football players' education is laughable, and pretty much everybody knows it. By quietly rejecting this Rice Commission recommendation, they showed it again.
And the notion that the NCAA adopted this new agent rule for the "good" of the athletes ... please.
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Wait, you are answering for Billy again? But since I have you, it’s my job now to provide evidence? I thought that is the NCAAs?
Listen, just about every sports governing body has been proven corrupt. It’s the fox and the hen house. That’s the history. When you give Juan Anderson three games for attending a Brewers game with his roommate and Tom Izzo one non-con game for illegally paying an AAU coach and nothing for covered up rapes, then you have lost credibility as an organization. If the NCAA really cared they would beef up or outsource the staff instead of offering up lame excuses.
They have the chance to prove me wrong in the coming days. I remain doubtful.
I’ve offered you and many others here a bet to prove once and for all we are two different people, two different states....pony up the money for charity....if I am going to expose you and others we are going to have a good cause benefit from it. He will know more about this subject than EVERYONE on this board combined because of what he does for a living.
Now, your comments about really caring...that’s an entirely different conversation that you and I likely agree on. The resources the NCAA has are limited because the $$$$$ is plowed back into the membership in various forms. Billy can answer better than I can, but my guess is the NCAA cares, certainly some schools do, especially those that are playing within the rules and have to compete against the cheaters, but to care more they need more resources which likely isn’t coming. I don’t recall how big the enforcement staff is these days, but even if you doubled it you still cannot get past the lack of subpoena power they have no matter how much you want results. Witnesses aren’t compelled to do a damn thing.
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Amateurism is a sham for volleyball, track, soccer, women’s sports, most men’s sports? Lazy again MU82..last I checked most student athletes don’t play men’s basketball and football. Even those that do, a huge number play at schools where they lose money on athletics, but keep focusing on the that tiny sliver and extrapolate as if it is everything under NCAA jurisdiction that you continue to butcher time and again.
And of course your anti-screed on what the intentions are for....right out of the book of agenda journalism....thoughts and prayers.
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Amateurism is a sham for volleyball, track, soccer, women’s sports, most men’s sports? Lazy again MU82..last I checked most student athletes don’t play men’s basketball and football. Even those that do, a huge number play at schools where they lose money on athletics, but keep focusing on the that tiny sliver and extrapolate as if it is everything under NCAA jurisdiction that you continue to butcher time and again.
And of course your anti-screed on what the intentions are for....right out of the book of lefty journalism....thoughts and prayers.
First, I obviously was talking about football and basketball. I guess I should have spelled it out for those (for one, the only one) who had an agenda and needed to shift goalposts.
Second, your clueless conclusion injected politics in a non-political situation in which neither I nor anybody else mentioned politics.
Third, thoughts and prayers will be as useful against academic fraud in NCAA institutions as they have been against domestic terrorists.
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First, I obviously was talking about football and basketball. I guess I should have spelled it out for those (for one, the only one) who had an agenda and needed to shift goalposts.
Second, your clueless conclusion injected politics in a non-political situation in which neither I nor anybody else mentioned politics.
Third, thoughts and prayers will be as useful against academic fraud in NCAA institutions as they have been against domestic terrorists.
I shifted no goalposts, you didn’t properly convey what you meant and now you are upset about it.
What politics did I inject? You have been the absolute king of doing that the last few months with signatures, blatant posts, etc.....you would definitely know....so please let me know what politics I injected....or do you mean like what you just did with your last statement in this response? It’s what you do all the time.
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I’ve offered you and many others here a bet to prove once and for all we are two different people, two different states....pony up the money for charity....if I am going to expose you and others we are going to have a good cause benefit from it. He will know more about this subject than EVERYONE on this board combined because of what he does for a living.
I took you up on your wager. When the Chico’s Bail Bonds Trio shows up in person to sing the national anthem together at FF, I will donate. Didn’t you send in your audition tape like you promised?
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I took you up on your wager. When the Chico’s Bail Bonds Trio shows up in person to sing the national anthem together at FF, I will donate. Didn’t you send in your audition tape like you promised?
Trio? No, I don’t sing.
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I shifted no goalposts, you didn’t properly convey what you meant and now you are upset about it.
What politics did I inject? You have been the absolute king of doing that the last few months with signatures, blatant posts, etc.....you would definitely know....so please let me know what politics I injected....or do you mean like what you just did with your last statement in this response? It’s what you do all the time.
You are exhausting, and I'm not going to play your political games. The last few days alone you made more political-oriented posts than I have in the last few months.
Here again, as usual, you were so intent on "winning" an argument, that you didn't even address what was in the article I linked:
The NCAA had an opportunity to have a say in academic fraud cases, an opportunity to follow a suggestion from the Rice Commission, an opportunity to take a stance on academic integrity. Not only did the NCAA decide they didn't want to be burdened by dealing with these issues, but they tried to keep their rejection of the Rice Commission suggestion on the down-low. Thankfully, this journalist (and a few others in other news outlets) called them out on it.
Apparently it's OK with you that the NCAA treat this issue that way. And if it is, that's OK, too. Just be honest for a change instead of always having an agenda, political or otherwise.