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Author Topic: NCAA recent investigations  (Read 121368 times)

dgies9156

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #175 on: October 17, 2018, 07:15:31 AM »
There is an old saying: "Follow the money."

The NCAA will do nothing on this one for the same reason they did nothing on the UNC bogus class scandal. To penalize the big cash cows in basketball would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Imagine if players were being paid to go to UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, Kansas and the NCAA put them all on probation for two years with NO tournament and limited scholarships.

The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.

Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!

Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!

GGGG

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #176 on: October 17, 2018, 07:47:19 AM »
As an entrepreneur for most of my professional career. I've had multiple opportunities to "cheat the system" and enrich myself but chose not to. I've also been cheated out of a large sum of money by others who "played ball".  I guess my catholic upbringing was the reason I did such but I get angry at the way cheaters are rewarded.


I don't disagree with you one bit.

warriorchick

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #177 on: October 17, 2018, 09:24:16 AM »
There is an old saying: "Follow the money."

The NCAA will do nothing on this one for the same reason they did nothing on the UNC bogus class scandal. To penalize the big cash cows in basketball would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Imagine if players were being paid to go to UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, Kansas and the NCAA put them all on probation for two years with NO tournament and limited scholarships.

The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.

Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!

Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!

You know what?  If all those  schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.

Non-alums follow  UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good.  Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead.  As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level  because more teams would be competitive.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:46:02 AM by warriorchick »
Have some patience, FFS.

brewcity77

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #178 on: October 17, 2018, 09:34:13 AM »
I'd be more concerned if Michigan St was mentioned because they're the only top program we seem to be competing with consistenly for recruits.
 Maybe for offering? I don't think we've taken any high enough recruits to actually pay outside of Henry but I doubt we paid and took Wally to get him.

This is the same type of thinking Wisconsin fans use, yet they are recruiting guys like Diamond Stone, Kevon Looney, etc. And if a fringe top-25 guy like Bowen is offered $200k, you have to imagine most every top-100 is worth $10k at least.

The idea that we landed top-150 players with no possibility of pay for play is naive. Did guys like Cheatham, Heldt, Carter, Howard, Hauser(s), Ellenson, Cain, John, etc come here strictly on relationships? Maybe. But they could all be major pieces of most programs and game changing for smaller programs. If this goes on at the top, it likely goes on lower down.

All I'm saying is if anyone is trying to definitively say this didn't happen at my school, no matter what school it is, they are being naive.
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Benny B

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #179 on: October 17, 2018, 09:38:40 AM »
I'd be more concerned if Michigan St was mentioned because they're the only top program we seem to be competing with consistenly for recruits.
 Maybe for offering? I don't think we've taken any high enough recruits to actually pay outside of Henry but I doubt we paid and took Wally to get him.

I tend to agree with this... taking Wally was a pretty steep price to pay to get Henry. 

This is the same type of thinking Wisconsin fans use, yet they are recruiting guys like Diamond Stone, Kevon Looney, etc. And if a fringe top-25 guy like Bowen is offered $200k, you have to imagine most every top-100 is worth $10k at least.

The idea that we landed top-150 players with no possibility of pay for play is naive. Did guys like Cheatham, Heldt, Carter, Howard, Hauser(s), Ellenson, Cain, John, etc come here strictly on relationships? Maybe. But they could all be major pieces of most programs and game changing for smaller programs. If this goes on at the top, it likely goes on lower down.

And other than maybe Markus, I can't think of anyone else on the current roster who'd be considered by the agents/shoe companies as a payout candidate.  As far as I can tell, these payments aren't being offered to every high-level recruit, they're going to those with likely NBA futures... the money is coming from the agents and executives who are expecting something, i.e. future business, in return; Adidas isn't funding UL's recruit pipeline because UL is a loyal user of their sneakers and apparel.

Also - and this is strictly anecdotal - but it would seem to me that the players who are getting "paid" by these schools are generally coming from economic situations where there isn't much to lose.  In other words, I would think that Henry and Markus (i.e. their families), given their strong socioeconomic backgrounds (relatively speaking), would be exponentially less inclined to take a payout than someone who was left to hone their skills on the broken asphalt surrounding Cabrini Green.  Even though Henry didn't need it, is it that far-fetched to surmise that he and his family probably wanted at least a little bit of the college experience.

Then again, if there is any relationship between payoffs and income, it's likely parabolic... as you approach the upper end of the income spectrum, you'll find that the rich never pass up an opportunity to add another buck to the pile, but more likely because they may feel a sense of entitlement or 'untouchabilty' (or at least can afford to lose whatever they may be putting at risk).

I think the moral of the story here is that, if Wojo targets 5-star recruits only from families who have household incomes between $87,800-82,300, MU will escape all of this unscathed.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

GGGG

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #180 on: October 17, 2018, 09:55:43 AM »
And other than maybe Markus, I can't think of anyone else on the current roster who'd be considered by the agents/shoe companies as a payout candidate.  As far as I can tell, these payments aren't being offered to every high-level recruit, they're going to those with likely NBA futures... the money is coming from the agents and executives who are expecting something, i.e. future business, in return; Adidas isn't funding UL's recruit pipeline because UL is a loyal user of their sneakers and apparel.


Yeah, I don't think I would make the assumption that just because it is happening at the top, that it is likely happening lower down.  As you imply, what shoe company is going to pay for Haanif Cheatham or even Sam Hauser coming out of high school?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just don't see the financial incentives that occur at the top.


Also - and this is strictly anecdotal - but it would seem to me that the players who are getting "paid" by these schools are generally coming from economic situations where there isn't much to lose.  In other words, I would think that Henry and Markus (i.e. their families), given their strong socioeconomic backgrounds (relatively speaking), would be exponentially less inclined to take a payout than someone who was left to hone their skills on the broken asphalt surrounding Cabrini Green.  Even though Henry didn't need it, is it that far-fetched to surmise that he and his family probably wanted at least a little bit of the college experience.


Brian Bowen lived a pretty solid middle-class life in Saginaw.  I think you probably should research this a little further.

brewcity77

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #181 on: October 17, 2018, 10:01:43 AM »
With the articles from the past couple days, it seems pretty clear schools were involved in payments as well. Whether that's coaches, boosters, or what, it wasn't just shoe companies. It wasn't admitted due to the case being about shoe companies, but the reporting is pretty clear.

So while the shoe companies are paying for the pro level talent, the payments pretty clearly extend beyond that. I keep coming back to when Lovell said for every dollar spent on Marquette men's basketball, the return is nine times that.

The purview of the trial is shoe companies, but it's obvious the evidence extends beyond that and I find it hard to believe that won't come out too.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #182 on: October 17, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/09/autumn-sole-stice.html?m=0

Just dropping this piece I did in 2011 that appeared in CS.  Nike had a better conversion rate than Adidas back then but these characters also flipped companies.  I didn't look beyond the Top 100 but influence dropped with the rankings (or increased with the rankings).

It seems like the Feds could <have> had a RICO case if they wanted but it gets hazy on what's illegal versus what's legal but not allowed under NCAA guidelines.  Squirmy.

Benny B

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #183 on: October 17, 2018, 11:20:48 AM »
Brian Bowen lived a pretty solid middle-class life in Saginaw.  I think you probably should research this a little further.

As I said, anecdotal observations... no intention of painting everyone but all I have are broad brushes.




Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #184 on: October 17, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »
As I said, anecdotal observations... no intention of painting everyone but all I have are broad brushes.




Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?

um, yes. Nice stereotyping though. Are you trying to insinuate that no urban area can have a solid middle class?
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MomofMUltiples

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #185 on: October 17, 2018, 11:36:59 AM »
What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player.  Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools.  And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid. 

When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that.  with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.

Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA?  Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches.  But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue?  Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?
I mean, OK, maybe he's secretly a serial killer who's pulled the wool over our eyes with his good deeds and smooth jumper - Pakuni (on Markus Howard)

GGGG

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #186 on: October 17, 2018, 11:41:21 AM »
Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?


Former co-worker of mine lived there for a number of years.  He seemed to be living just fine.

MU82

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2018, 11:41:24 AM »
You know what?  If all those  schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.

Non-alums follow  UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good.  Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead.  As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level  because more teams would be competitive.

Excellent take.

College basketball survived major point-shaving scandals. It could survive a half-dozen or a dozen "name" programs going on probation for a year or two. It might even help the sport thrive in the long run.
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Otule's Glass Eye

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #188 on: October 17, 2018, 02:16:20 PM »
What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player.  Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools.  And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid. 

When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that.  with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.

Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA?  Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches.  But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue?  Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?

I remember what Big Daddy said about Grimes and what he said seems very telling now in hindsight. He said something along the lines of “When the time is right, I will tell you all in a year or so what went down with Quentin Grimes.” Very likely he was paid.

Otule's Glass Eye

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #189 on: October 17, 2018, 02:18:34 PM »
A tweet liked by Joey as well as a couple other people I follow on twitter said “If Zion Williamson didn’t go to Kansas for 100k, are we supposed to believe he went to Duke for free?” Lol
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 02:20:43 PM by Otule's Glass Eye »

Newsdreams

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2018, 02:45:41 PM »
What's interesting to me is who's getting the money - it's not always the player.  Sounds like besides players' families, there are AAU coaches, non-custodial parents and other influencers all getting paid to "convince" their charge to attend certain schools.  And then, you wonder about the "underground network" that families of these top players seem to have because they know they can get paid and they seem to know who to talk to in order to get paid. 

When things went sour with Grimes, my first thought was that he, or someone on his behalf, asked for $$ and Marquette told him what they thought about that.  with all the Kansas buzz, it's hard to imagine he didn't get paid.

Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA?  Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches.  But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue? Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?

They will be interested there will be NBA type players but I guess market will correct and money offered will be less
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Benny B

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #191 on: October 17, 2018, 02:49:20 PM »
um, yes. Nice stereotyping though. Are you trying to insinuate that no urban area can have a solid middle class?

I suppose no more than I would "insinuate" that the sun is a flaming ball of hydrogen and helium.  To qualify a middle class cohort anywhere as "solid" is misleading, and perhaps outright deceitful.  Regardless of by what measure you define the middle class, the consensus among economists is that the concentrations of wealth and poverty on either side is compressing the range boundaries of the middle class.  Now where the economists differ is whether - as a result of said compression - are classes defined by the population or are populations simply reclassified.  While a slight majority leans to the latter, counter-intuitively, most economists and demographers also lean towards ignoring future earning potential but contemplating the effects of inflation when drawing lines between the classes, which seems paradoxical in that one factor give a prospective outlook while the other a static; however, the argument for this methodology is that inflation does not affect the various classes proportionately across the scale.  "But Benny," you say, "future earning potential is influenced by a person's class as well."  Quit whining.  Of course it is, but not universally.  In other words, two people with incomes of $X, same age, with the same education, living in the same neighborhood are equally affected by a CPI rise of 2% to 3%.  However, the earning potential of those two individuals could vary drastically.  In other words, any attempt to quantify earning potential for purposes of adding a data point to the model would be an exercise in futility given the likely conjecture of how such factor is quantified.  Nevertheless, inflation itself fluctuates, and even with the best efforts of the Fed, is impossible to predict, much less stabilize. 

In any event, the boundaries of what is considered "middle class," or any class for that matter, is fluid.  Ergo, a "solid middle class" cannot, by definition, exist anywhere, be that urban, semi-urban, suburban, subural or rural.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #192 on: October 17, 2018, 03:45:56 PM »
Then again, does anyone truly live a solid, middle-class life in Saginaw?

Former co-worker of mine lived there for a number of years.  He seemed to be living just fine.

Cathy, I said as we boarded a Greyhound in Pittsburgh
Michigan seems like a dream to me now
It took me four days to hitchhike from Saginaw
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dgies9156

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #193 on: October 17, 2018, 03:59:24 PM »
You know what?  If all those  schools got put on probation, the 5-stars would go to somewhere else and draw interest to those teams.

Non-alums follow  UNC, Duke, Arizona, UCLA, Villanova , Kentucky, Syracuse, and Kansas because they are good.  Sanctions on those schools will make other teams better and people will watch them instead.  As a matter of fact, it could be argued that spreading the talent around more could create more interest than the current level  because more teams would be competitive.

Sister Chick, we should agree to partially agree!

The problem is that a sudden fall-off the radar for the current blue bloods would create a vacuum that would be filled by, oh, spring training baseball or the NBA. Or the NHL! In time, you are right. Others, like us, will fill the void. But being a good accountant and chief financial officer, you know, as does the NCAA, that there's a time value of money and that any fall-off in interest because a blue blood is on probation means fewer NCAA dollars.

Perhaps the bigger problem from the NCAA's perspective is that if they administered lengthy probations to the blue bloods, they'd take their balls, their big basketball budgets, their interest and their everything else and create their own league with their own rules. That would leave such basketball specialists as, say, Marquette and the Big East, out in the cold. And it would leave the NCAA in Chapter 7.

Pakuni

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #194 on: October 17, 2018, 05:08:38 PM »
College athletics have been beset with scandals forever - many worse than this one - and the money making train has continued to roll on (and get bigger, for that matter).
I have a hard timing buying that a court case proving what 99 percent of fans already knew - that the college sports industry is shady as heck - is going to bring down the entire system.

forgetful

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #195 on: October 17, 2018, 05:18:33 PM »
Finally, what happens when recruits can go straight to the NBA?  Their money will probably head upstream - to AAU or (shudder) High School coaches.  But will it just create a new top 10-20 players who will get paid to keep the Bluebloods blue?  Or are the shoe companies no longer interested because these guys aren't the NBA-ready guys?

When the top players go straight to the NBA nothing will change.  The financial benefit to the shoe companies is not the player going to the NBA. 

It is similar to why colleges spend so much on athletics, when often they don't even break even in terms of revenue.  It is the value of the exposure, and publicity associated with the sport.

NCAA basketball will continue to be big business.  And if the top programs are wearing Adidas, Nike, Under Armor etc., gear then the 12-30 year old market will buy the same gear.  Sponsoring teams is only part of the game, that cost in sponsorship is pointless if the teams you are sponsoring aren't elite. 

So, you kick money back to players, to ensure that your flagship sponsored university has the top talent.  That aspect of the market will not change, so the shoe companies will continue to pay players. 

Also, one reason MU may be clean in this is most shoe companies are going to only pay big dollars to support 1 or 2 flagship universities.  MU is Jordan brand, and we are not one of the top 2 Jordan Brand schools in terms of marketing, so it is less likely that dollars were going to MU recruits.

brewcity77

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #196 on: October 17, 2018, 05:54:59 PM »
Also, one reason MU may be clean in this is most shoe companies are going to only pay big dollars to support 1 or 2 flagship universities.  MU is Jordan brand, and we are not one of the top 2 Jordan Brand schools in terms of marketing, so it is less likely that dollars were going to MU recruits.

Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.
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WarriorDad

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #197 on: October 17, 2018, 10:16:59 PM »
Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.

Or Depaul is desperate and willing to do stupid things. 
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WarriorDad

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #198 on: October 17, 2018, 11:23:03 PM »


The television revenue would tank. The excitement of the tournament would be gone for at least awhile when the "names" in the NCAA were suspended and the new "name" programs built their fan base and market support.

Many of these teams do cheat and the NCAA is likely to respond by throwing the death penalty at a mid-major or below!

Some things will just never happen, including clean elections in Illinois, palm trees in Wisconsin, Marquette getting a football team or the NCAA getting touch on blue bloods who cheat!

It wouldn't tank, it is guaranteed for years to come with all of these long term contracts. Whether 1 person watches or millions, the money is guaranteed until the next contracts come up.  Some aren't until 2025, some in 2030. 

The NCAA isn't going to dole out the death penalty to anyone any longer, but they hit USC pretty damn hard. Is USC not a football blue blood?  Miami was a blue blood in football, and the NCAA hit them very hard.  Both programs suffered as a result.  Michigan was hit hard.  Louisville is darn close to a blue blood, they just had their national title vacated. That is hard hitting in my book.

The North Carolina basketball example continues to be misrepresented.  If a college wants to offer bogus classes and anyone can attend (not just athletes) there is nothing the NCAA can do about it. Nothing.

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barfolomew

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #199 on: October 18, 2018, 11:18:58 AM »
Uhh...DePaul had $200k on the table for Brian Bowen. Creighton, NC State, Auburn, Miami, and USC aren't on anyone's radar as flagship basketball programs for any of the shoe companies. This doesn't stop at Kansas, Arizona, Duke, Kentucky, and UNC.

I agree with you in part, Brew.
The fanbase of any team who was in on any top 50 recruit in the last 5 years or so probably has reason to be at least a little nervous. It would be nothing for Adidas or Nike to take a $20k flyer on a top 50 guy.

However, that list of teams is tremendously long. I find it unlikely that all of them were in on it.
And even if they were, who has confidence that the NCAA would dole out fitting punishment for individual schools?

This whole problem has NCAA Blue Ribbon Investigative Panel written all over it.

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