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Author Topic: NCAA recent investigations  (Read 121376 times)

Marcus92

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2018, 09:02:46 PM »
Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #276 on: December 05, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-basketball-ncaa-ncaa-investigation/feds-give-ncaa-permission-to-launch-basketball-investigations-report-idUSKCN1ND02E
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wadesworld

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #277 on: December 05, 2018, 10:01:26 PM »
Makes sense. The FBI has requested that the NCAA hold off on its investigation until the federal case is complete. Defendants such as Arizona assistant Book Richardson don't go on trial until next April. Plus, other coaches may be implicated or indicted between now and then.

They told the NCAA they can proceed with their own investigations. The NCAA is terrible and nothing will happen even with the evidence literally handed to them and out there for everyone to see.
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Loose Cannon

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #278 on: December 06, 2018, 09:45:06 AM »
They told the NCAA they can proceed with their own investigations. The NCAA is terrible and nothing will happen even with the evidence literally handed to them and out there for everyone to see.

Yep, Tark was right, the Universities Presidents will look for ways not to kill the Golden Goose and just use window dressings.  Watch C-State.
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Marcus92

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #279 on: December 06, 2018, 09:53:11 AM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-basketball-ncaa-ncaa-investigation/feds-give-ncaa-permission-to-launch-basketball-investigations-report-idUSKCN1ND02E

I hadn't seen this. Thanks for posting. It's true that universities won't want to kill the golden goose. But they don't want coaches being indicted by the FBI in a federal bribery and fraud investigation, either. That's some seriously bad PR. Chances are they won't fix the problem -- at least as long as they insist on maintaining their amateurism model. But I expect there will be serious consequences and significant changes.
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jesmu84

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #280 on: December 06, 2018, 11:18:02 AM »
I hadn't seen this. Thanks for posting. It's true that universities won't want to kill the golden goose. But they don't want coaches being indicted by the FBI in a federal bribery and fraud investigation, either. That's some seriously bad PR. Chances are they won't fix the problem -- at least as long as they insist on maintaining their amateurism model. But I expect there will be serious consequences and significant changes.

I don't.

Look at some of the biggest scandals in the past. Penn State, USC, Baylor, Mich St, etc.

Immediately? A lot of harsh words. 2-3 years later? Zero significant fallout.

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #281 on: December 06, 2018, 11:28:58 AM »
What is clear is that, after SMU, the NCAA will never give a program the death penalty ever again.  There were incredibly strong cases to do so within the past decade at Penn State, Baylor, Louisville, Miami and UNC.  However, in each and every case, the schools got off from severe punishment due to the financial impact each school would have had on their respective conferences.  SMU's death penalty was a strong factor into the demise of the Southwest Conference, and effectively relegated schools like Houston, TCU and Rice to lower conferences. 

When a school like Notre Dame self-reports academic misconduct, including suspending their national championship game starting quarterback for the entire season, still gets penalized and has wins taken away from the NCAA, yet UNC offered over 200 fraudulent and academically dishonest courses that featured predominantly student-athletes from the football and men's basketball programs, yet is cleared by the NCAA because "it could not conclude that the University of North Carolina violated NCAA academic rules" there is something incredibly wrong with the system, proving there is without a doubt a double standard for select institutions.

MU82

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #282 on: December 06, 2018, 11:36:57 AM »
North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.

Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."

If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?
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forgetful

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #283 on: December 06, 2018, 11:45:04 AM »
What is clear is that, after SMU, the NCAA will never give a program the death penalty ever again.  There were incredibly strong cases to do so within the past decade at Penn State, Baylor, Louisville, Miami and UNC.  However, in each and every case, the schools got off from severe punishment due to the financial impact each school would have had on their respective conferences.  SMU's death penalty was a strong factor into the demise of the Southwest Conference, and effectively relegated schools like Houston, TCU and Rice to lower conferences. 

When a school like Notre Dame self-reports academic misconduct, including suspending their national championship game starting quarterback for the entire season, still gets penalized and has wins taken away from the NCAA, yet UNC offered over 200 fraudulent and academically dishonest courses that featured predominantly student-athletes from the football and men's basketball programs, yet is cleared by the NCAA because "it could not conclude that the University of North Carolina violated NCAA academic rules" there is something incredibly wrong with the system, proving there is without a doubt a double standard for select institutions.

Don't underestimate the political and legal power of Big State universities.

Loose Cannon

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #284 on: December 06, 2018, 11:48:01 AM »
North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.

Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."

If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?

Yes, that why I think they want to remain Faceless and not appoint a Commissioner (As Jay Bilas has suggested) so blame can not be Focused on one position, but defused to the Association.
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Cheeks

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #286 on: December 27, 2018, 09:23:22 AM »
North Carolina was the worst case I've ever seen.

Giving away money and cars is one thing ... but spending years ignoring rampant academic fraud, I was stunned they got off "Scott Free."

If what they did doesn't warrant even a slap on the wrist, why should any program get any penalty at all for anything?

NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.
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Loose Cannon

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #287 on: December 27, 2018, 10:59:11 AM »
NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.

Two Questions: If you know the answers.

1) Can other school elect to do the same now?

2) Did UNC state why they Discontinued the classes?
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WhiteTrash

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #289 on: January 16, 2019, 08:04:22 PM »
Moron

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/25779016/michigan-state-university-interim-president-john-engler-resign-comments
Agreed. Not nearly as moronic as Izzo's comments.  He is a great coach but came off as a dumb jock. Maybe most coaches are that and we need no not hold them up as role models.

texaswarrior74

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #290 on: January 17, 2019, 11:48:40 AM »
NCAA had no jurisdiction, not a damn thing they could do about it because UNC offered same sham courses to regular students. If UNC wants to dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes, that is up to them to do and NCAA has zero recourse.

As stated above, UNC was not punished because the classes were offered to all students and actually had more non athletes enrolled than athletes. If you research a little deeper than some of the headlines you’ll also see that the Raleigh newspaper had two journalists on a mission to bring down UNC athletics in general- both were NC State grads. One was on a mission to get a Pulitzer and wrote stories as fact that were easily dispelled. He was in cahoots with a rogue professor who is both a racist and one who hates athletics in general and would be much happier if there were no sports teams.

Behind the scenes , UNC’s attorneys were able to provide proof of courses offered at a significant number of schools including Stanford, Michigan and even NC State where athletes were given course credit (as much as 6 credit hours)  for off season conditioning and in season practice that were for athletes only and “taught” by coaches. Clearly an NCAA violation. The NCAA did NOT want to open that can of worms

As to UNC wanting to “dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes” the classes were real- not online and required a 20 plus page research paper. I will not defend and admin for grading some papers but in all schools, TA’s also grade papers.

Every school has easy or “crib” classes - even the Ivies. With a child that attended Yale I can attest to that. While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.”  Every fraternity had the final exams in their exam files and the exams NEVER changed.

My senior year I took an independent study class with English professor Dr. Joseph DeFalco ( a noted Hemingway scholar at the time) that was essentially me doing independent research and turning in a lengthy research paper that I designed on an aspect of Hemingway’s novels at the end. In theory, this is what the UNC class in question wan. Most schools still offer independent study classes.

And a final note- while at MU and taking a political philosophy class (my other major) two of our better, but not star, basketball players were in the class. Come exam time both took their mid term and finals in the hall outside the classroom. I finished the midterm fairly early and walked into the hall to witness both being tutored on the exams. To me that is far worse than what UNC was accused of.

In the interest of full disclosure, I got my BA from MU in 1974 and my MA from UNC in 1976. I am a diehard “Warrior” fan but also became a UNC fan (when not playing MU) in big part due to Al’s very close friendship with Dean Smith and the man he was. I follow both schools closely, am very active in my local MU alumni group and very proud of the education I received at both schools.

One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred  that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.

jesmu84

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #291 on: January 17, 2019, 12:17:10 PM »
As stated above, UNC was not punished because the classes were offered to all students and actually had more non athletes enrolled than athletes. If you research a little deeper than some of the headlines you’ll also see that the Raleigh newspaper had two journalists on a mission to bring down UNC athletics in general- both were NC State grads. One was on a mission to get a Pulitzer and wrote stories as fact that were easily dispelled. He was in cahoots with a rogue professor who is both a racist and one who hates athletics in general and would be much happier if there were no sports teams.

Behind the scenes , UNC’s attorneys were able to provide proof of courses offered at a significant number of schools including Stanford, Michigan and even NC State where athletes were given course credit (as much as 6 credit hours)  for off season conditioning and in season practice that were for athletes only and “taught” by coaches. Clearly an NCAA violation. The NCAA did NOT want to open that can of worms

As to UNC wanting to “dilute their educational mission and offer bogus classes” the classes were real- not online and required a 20 plus page research paper. I will not defend and admin for grading some papers but in all schools, TA’s also grade papers.

Every school has easy or “crib” classes - even the Ivies. With a child that attended Yale I can attest to that. While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.”  Every fraternity had the final exams in their exam files and the exams NEVER changed.

My senior year I took an independent study class with English professor Dr. Joseph DeFalco ( a noted Hemingway scholar at the time) that was essentially me doing independent research and turning in a lengthy research paper that I designed on an aspect of Hemingway’s novels at the end. In theory, this is what the UNC class in question wan. Most schools still offer independent study classes.

And a final note- while at MU and taking a political philosophy class (my other major) two of our better, but not star, basketball players were in the class. Come exam time both took their mid term and finals in the hall outside the classroom. I finished the midterm fairly early and walked into the hall to witness both being tutored on the exams. To me that is far worse than what UNC was accused of.

In the interest of full disclosure, I got my BA from MU in 1974 and my MA from UNC in 1976. I am a diehard “Warrior” fan but also became a UNC fan (when not playing MU) in big part due to Al’s very close friendship with Dean Smith and the man he was. I follow both schools closely, am very active in my local MU alumni group and very proud of the education I received at both schools.

One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred  that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.

Really appreciate the info.

The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)

GGGG

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #292 on: January 17, 2019, 12:53:44 PM »
Really appreciate the info.

The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)


But it is literally not their "job" to make sure that every class offered by its members has some degree of rigor.  There is nothing that empowers them to do so.  And the reason is because its members don't want to give them that authority.

Their primary jobs are to sanction championship events and to regulate the recruitment and eligibility of student athletes.

jesmu84

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #293 on: January 17, 2019, 02:20:09 PM »

But it is literally not their "job" to make sure that every class offered by its members has some degree of rigor.  There is nothing that empowers them to do so.  And the reason is because its members don't want to give them that authority.

Their primary jobs are to sanction championship events and to regulate the recruitment and eligibility of student athletes.

Understood. But isn't their eligibility in question when someone presents evidence of these sham courses?

I'm not saying the NCAA should investigate randomly or anything. But when presented with evidence that calls into question athete eligibility, they should look into it.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #294 on: January 17, 2019, 02:42:02 PM »
IIRC part of UNC's defense was that it is not the job of the NCAA to determine grades/what makes a class worthy. That is up to the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges who did put UNC on temporary probation.

dgies9156

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #295 on: January 17, 2019, 03:24:14 PM »

While I was at MU there were two “crib” classes that every athlete took; Music Appreciation” and “Art History.” 

Did Horton hear a "who?"

Horton was legendary. I was a few years behind you, but everybody on campus knew that if you needed a GPA boost, you got up before 8:00 a.m., went to a large lecture hall and listened to Horton's scratchy records on a bad record player. So long as you showed up at 8:00 a.m., religiously, and did a term paper, an "A" was almost guaranteed.

Big debate among the various Marquette factions in our family was, "How many Hortons were in your GPA?" Apart from keeping some folks in the university, not sure there was any real value to the class. That was disputed by one parent and a sibling who saw the GPA boost from the Horton experience.

Never did a Horton here but if the university was going to offer an introduction to classical music class as part of a cultural/fine arts program, then do it right.

Best Urban Marquette Legend was the student who did a nice cover, two pages of narrative and 18 blank pages in his or her term paper and turned it into Horton. Allegedly got an "A". I don't buy that one but it makes a good story!

dgies9156

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #296 on: January 17, 2019, 03:33:49 PM »
One thing that most people outside of North Carolina wouldn’t know is the enormous hatred  that NC State fans have for UNC. I grew up in Ohio and witnessed the OSU- UM rivalry first hand and it honestly pales in comparison to how much NC State fans hate everything about UNC- it could be due to to how hard admission is even for in-state people but I think it goes far deeper and is inculcated into each new generation.

Perhaps it is because on a clear day, you can see the UNC campus from NC State?

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there's a reason why Duke, UNC and NC State have a mutual hatred of each other. They're all within about a 45 minute drive of each other. Kinda like putting Marquette, Notre Dame and Wisconsin between Kenosha and Waukesha. The real question is whether UNC hates NC State as much as NC State hates UNC?

GGGG

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #297 on: January 17, 2019, 03:34:17 PM »
Understood. But isn't their eligibility in question when someone presents evidence of these sham courses?

I'm not saying the NCAA should investigate randomly or anything. But when presented with evidence that calls into question athete eligibility, they should look into it.


But ultimately their eligibility rests on their ability to label the class as "sham." 

The NCAA doesn't have the authority to do that.  The NCAA has enough trouble doing what it is supposed to do much less do things they aren't supposed to do.

Cheeks

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #298 on: January 17, 2019, 03:42:10 PM »
Really appreciate the info.

The only thing I took from this is the NCAA - again - is not doing their job. And they continue to demonstrate that "student-athlete" is a joke. (With regards to finding the evidence of sham courses for athletes only at universities)

Because it isn’t the NCAA’s job to do what you are stating...literally they aren’t doing that job because it isn’t their job to do.

The university is accredited to meet a standard by an accrediting agency.  The NCAA cannot be the agency to determine if classes are hard enough, majors are worthwhile, etc.  The NCAA is an athletic association, not an academic one. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

jesmu84

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Re: NCAA recent investigations
« Reply #299 on: January 17, 2019, 05:21:06 PM »

But ultimately their eligibility rests on their ability to label the class as "sham." 

The NCAA doesn't have the authority to do that.  The NCAA has enough trouble doing what it is supposed to do much less do things they aren't supposed to do.

Interesting. Apparently I have no idea what the NCAA does. (Not sure they do either).

So, the NCAA has zero oversight to the "student" part of student athlete?