MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MtAiryGoldenEagle on June 19, 2019, 11:31:27 AM
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https://the-boneyard.com/threads/uconn-to-the-nbe.144423/
From the post, "I know I'll get crucified for this thread, but just passing along something I heard today, because it came from a very credible source. Largest private donor at Providence, directly involved in their athletic department and knows Tranghese well (who he says UConn hired as a consultant at some point) says he's 95%+ sure that UConn will be joining the NBE in 2021..."
...and
https://247sports.com/college/saint-josephs/Board/105444/Contents/U-Conn-back-to-the-BE-132970558/
"Rumors persist that they are finalizing a return to the BE to appease Fox sports. 20 game regular season round robin proposed.....The Zags were the first choice, but that proved unworkable."
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really hope this is true
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Big if true
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So if this is the case...
- 20 Big East games
- 4 (Presumably) exempt tournament games
- 2 Gavitt/Big 12 challenges
- 1 Wisconsin
That would be the expectation of what games are accounted for. 27 of the 31 allowable games are already accounted for most years. I expect we would rarely see any other high-major home and homes. If we did, it would certainly end the attempts to have a strong buy type game (Belmont, Fresno State, Vermont, Buffalo, yes I know Belmont was assigned).
I'm on board with adding them if we are going to add anyone, but it will likely make the non-con less attractive.
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That would be the expectation of what games are accounted for. 27 of the 31 allowable games are already accounted for most years. I expect we would rarely see any other high-major home and homes. If we did, it would certainly end the attempts to have a strong buy type game (Belmont, Fresno State, Vermont, Buffalo, yes I know Belmont was assigned).
You're right, but I'd be fine with that trade-off.
Reading through the linked threads, it looks like UConn is losing $40million a year on football. This makes more sense with that context.
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The current incarnation of the Big East was formed by 10 like-minded basketball-only schools to eliminate the worry about conference swapping by football schools. Why now allow UConn to enter? We know they are going to leave again as soon as a P5 football conference invites them? If they Huskies come, where does their football team land? Independent? Staying in the AAC? More interestingly, where does their shining star, the women's team end up?
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Too d the Zags were unworkable(which I think we all knew would be anyway). But I'm ok with adding UCONN. I always said/thought, if the BE was going to add anyone it had to be either the Zags or UCONN.
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I've seen nothing to indicate that UConn is dropping football, which gives me no reason to believe they're joining the Big East.
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The current incarnation of the Big East was formed by 10 like-minded basketball-only schools to eliminate the worry about conference swapping by football schools. Why now allow UConn to enter? We know they are going to leave again as soon as a P5 football conference invites them? If they Huskies come, where does their football team land? Independent? Staying in the AAC? More interestingly, where does their shining star, the women's team end up?
They would only enter the BE if they dropped football.
Also, no P5 is inviting UConn anytime soon. Their football program is currently an absolute dumpster fire.
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The current incarnation of the Big East was formed by 10 like-minded basketball-only schools to eliminate the worry about conference swapping by football schools. Why now allow UConn to enter? We know they are going to leave again as soon as a P5 football conference invites them? If they Huskies come, where does their football team land? Independent? Staying in the AAC? More interestingly, where does their shining star, the women's team end up?
They may drop football altogether. I know that has been talked about for a few years now. As far as the Women's team, one would assume they'd come along.
Even if they did keep football, no P5 conference is ever going to want UCONN football.
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If UConn comes, I would say an escalating $40M buyout to leave that increases by $5M every year for inflation. That way, if they leave in 6 years, every Big East team gets $11M. And it keeps going up to keep up (or ahead of) inflation. Something insanely prohibitive.
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(http://media.giphy.com/media/9xggOnpFEpV8M6dIvg/giphy.gif)
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Like others have said, I only want them if they drop DI football.
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https://the-boneyard.com/threads/uconn-to-the-nbe.144423/
I recommend reading the thread for amusement. It is very much in the MU Scoop style of thinking.
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They are so ridiculously arrogant for a team who plays in the AAC.
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UConn's fiscal problems go beyond football, which had an $8.7 million deficit in 2018.
According to university reports, men's basketball lost about $5 million (with ticket sales at the lowest level since 2002) and women's basketball lost over $3 million. All told, those three sports account for less than half of the athletic department's $40 million shortfall.
Even in the face of such dire circumstances, the school's administration seems to have little grasp on reality -- financial or otherwise.
Spokeswoman Stephanie Reitz said, "UConn is today a top-20 university with outstanding academics. And it is safe to say that we would not have gotten here without athletics. It is not a coincidence that the university saw skyrocketing applications and a greater appetite for investment in UConn on the part of the state at the same time as successful athletic programs were raising the university's profile statewide and nationally."
Translation: The more you spend on athletics, the better. UConn has proven they're exceptionally good at that part of the equation. That is a very dangerous attitude for any institution, let alone a public one.
https://www.theday.com/article/20190117/SPORT07/190119450 (https://www.theday.com/article/20190117/SPORT07/190119450)
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I recommend reading the thread for amusement. It is very much in the MU Scoop style of thinking.
Yes, alot false info in there.
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Wow they are even worse than I thought. See attachment.
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UConn's fiscal problems go beyond football, which had an $8.7 million deficit in 2018.
According to university reports, men's basketball lost about $5 million (with ticket sales at the lowest level since 2002) and women's basketball lost over $3 million. All told, those three sports account for less than half of the athletic department's $40 million shortfall.
Even in the face of such dire circumstances, the school's administration seems to have little grasp on reality -- financial or otherwise.
Spokeswoman Stephanie Reitz said, "UConn is today a top-20 university with outstanding academics. And it is safe to say that we would not have gotten here without athletics. It is not a coincidence that the university saw skyrocketing applications and a greater appetite for investment in UConn on the part of the state at the same time as successful athletic programs were raising the university's profile statewide and nationally."
Translation: The more you spend on athletics, the better. UConn has proven they're exceptionally good at that part of the equation. That is a very dangerous attitude for any institution, let alone a public one.
https://www.theday.com/article/20190117/SPORT07/190119450 (https://www.theday.com/article/20190117/SPORT07/190119450)
On top of this, the state has some serious fiscal issues they have to deal with—wouldn’t be surprised if this (football/sports) is an area being scrutinized.
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I recommend reading the thread for amusement. It is very much in the MU Scoop style of thinking.
I lol'd when I read something along the lines of, "Delete this thread it's hurting recruiting"
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Lol, 82 slots in bowls for 126 teams and UCONN has managed fail to cross even that absurdly low measure of success in all but a few of its seasons. What a program.
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They may drop football altogether. I know that has been talked about for a few years now. As far as the Women's team, one would assume they'd come along.
Even if they did keep football, no P5 conference is ever going to want UCONN football.
Who is talking about that? Fans of other teams?
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https://the-boneyard.com/threads/uconn-to-the-nbe.144423/
From the post, "I know I'll get crucified for this thread, but just passing along something I heard today, because it came from a very credible source. Largest private donor at Providence, directly involved in their athletic department and knows Tranghese well (who he says UConn hired as a consultant at some point) says he's 95%+ sure that UConn will be joining the NBE in 2021..."
...and
https://247sports.com/college/saint-josephs/Board/105444/Contents/U-Conn-back-to-the-BE-132970558/
"Rumors persist that they are finalizing a return to the BE to appease Fox sports. 20 game regular season round robin proposed.....The Zags were the first choice, but that proved unworkable."
Yes, please..for obvious reasons and also somewhat satisfying to nab ESPN's neighbor.
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Let them come, were not talking about Syracuses football team. Uconn's football serves no threat to the big east and never has. Which is why they are stuck in their current situation.
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Let them come, were not talking about Syracuses football team. Uconn's football serves no threat to the big east and never has. Which is why they are stuck in their current situation.
Plus if they leave in 5 years who cares? Take the buyout, distribute the $ among the remaining teams, and go right back to 10 teams exactly where we are now.
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Plus if they leave in 5 years who cares? Take the buyout, distribute the $ among the remaining teams, and go right back to 10 teams exactly where we are now.
It’s not going to be an existential risk to the conference either. The only way to kill the conference at this point would be if the big guys wanted to take some b-ball only schools for some reason.
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Would love it if true. As hard of times as they've fallen on recently, they are still a top 10-15 program all time. Give Hurley a few years with the Big East brand and I think they will be competing for Big East titles sooner rather than later.
Couldn't care less about football. If they drop it, great. If they don't, great.
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https://the-boneyard.com/threads/uconn-to-the-nbe.144423/
From the post, "I know I'll get crucified for this thread, but just passing along something I heard today, because it came from a very credible source. Largest private donor at Providence, directly involved in their athletic department and knows Tranghese well (who he says UConn hired as a consultant at some point) says he's 95%+ sure that UConn will be joining the NBE in 2021..."
...and
https://247sports.com/college/saint-josephs/Board/105444/Contents/U-Conn-back-to-the-BE-132970558/
"Rumors persist that they are finalizing a return to the BE to appease Fox sports. 20 game regular season round robin proposed.....The Zags were the first choice, but that proved unworkable."
That was a fun thread to read. Apparently UConn doesn't teach it's students about the sunk cost fallacy or the difference between revenue and profit
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That was a fun thread to read. Apparently UConn doesn't teach it's students about the sunk cost fallacy or the difference between revenue and profit
Pretty sure the entire contents of their intro to individual income tax class is "not a dime back"
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https://the-boneyard.com/threads/uconn-to-the-nbe.144423/
From the post, "I know I'll get crucified for this thread, but just passing along something I heard today, because it came from a very credible source. Largest private donor at Providence, directly involved in their athletic department and knows Tranghese well (who he says UConn hired as a consultant at some point) says he's 95%+ sure that UConn will be joining the NBE in 2021..."
...and
https://247sports.com/college/saint-josephs/Board/105444/Contents/U-Conn-back-to-the-BE-132970558/
"Rumors persist that they are finalizing a return to the BE to appease Fox sports. 20 game regular season round robin proposed.....The Zags were the first choice, but that proved unworkable."
Yes. Please. 20 game round robin is fantastic.
However, they should be forced to stay in the BE for basketball for a minimum of 10 years (without a giant buyout), or drop their football program or make it D2/3.
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I have written on this topic on other realignment-focused forums, but - for many reasons - this is highly unlikely to happen for many reasons. UConn may very well to decide to drop football at some point, but right now - in 2019 - it is very, very unlikely. UConn has mortgaged its athletics future with football; they have spent a considerable amount of money over the past two decades on its stadium, football practice field, coaching salaries and even sacrificed long-term associations (conference-wise) in order to preserve football with a plethora of schools that they have zero history with, or even geographic ties to (the AAC). While they have one of the largest athletic budget deficits in the country (over $80 million), they still have time before their future gets busted. Ultimately, their ideal conference affiliation is the ACC (not the Big East nor the AAC); however the likelihood of that ever occurring is very argumentative (and highly unlikely if you listen to ACC fans).
I would not doubt that UConn has had indirect conversations with Big East representatives since 2013 (when the AAC/BE split). It would be prudent for them to keep all options available. However, the AAC just signed a new long-term deal with ESPN for over $7 million per year through 2030's. While that number will ultimately be puny in comparison to the P5 at that time, it does give UConn another immediate spin of the wheel until it does need to commit one way or the other. There is also a $10 million exit fee from the AAC, so that would need to be accounted for as well.
I don't see Fox ponying up for a special deal for UConn Football. It has negative value at this point in time. UConn *should be* investing as much as it can into football for a planned P5 shakeup in the mid 2020's. With their head coach making just over a million, and him paying out of pocket for assistant raises, and having their head coach-in-waiting leave for a similar paying job with the NY Jets, they had their lumps of bad press this past year.
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Plus if they leave in 5 years who cares? Take the buyout, distribute the $ among the remaining teams, and go right back to 10 teams exactly where we are now.
This.
Superbly stated, EFR.
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Yes. Please. 20 game round robin is fantastic.
However, they should be forced to stay in the BE for basketball for a minimum of 10 years (without a giant buyout), or drop their football program or make it D2/3.
I have no problem with them bringing football. I embrace football. In fact....
My suggestion is that the Big East Teams create one unified NCAA DIV I football team, financially supported by all of the Big East Teams on equal terms. There are some major logistical issues that would need to be resolved, but I would suggest the following:
CENTRAL LOCATION / HOME GAMES: Two Options: (1) The first would be to rotate annually, such that every 10 years, each school would host home games at their campus and provide practice facilities. Obviously, this would require the facilities and abilities to host these games, or maybe not really...maybe there is an advantage in designating the parking lot outside of the engineering building at Providence University as a home field, or President's Park near Georgetown. Imagine Notre Dame having to play on a makeshift field outside of LaLumiere Hall when at Marquette. (2) The second option would be to centralize the home field and practice facilities. I would suggest the BIG EAST purchase land somewhere as close to Notre Dame as possible, because F Notre Dame. Maybe the Lowe's a mile or two away from campus? Creating congestion and traffic gridlock would be a plus. Or, maybe following the Big Ten's lead with conference names that don't add up, the Big East could pick a location on the west coast.
STUDENT - ATHLETE DIPLOMAS: I acknowledge that at first blush it would be difficult to determine where someone should get a diploma if they played for the BIG EAST football team. But this is easily resolved. Each year, the starting quarterback throws footballs at targets covered with large paper covers. When the ball busts through the cover, you reach inside and VOILA! You get the diploma. It would be like Punch-A-Bunch on the Price is Right but less exciting.
TEAM COLORS: Easily resolved. The Big East already uses a red, white, and blue, color scheme.
TEAM NAME: The Big East could ask Tom Crean, as a dear friend of the Big East, to come up with a clever name that would work. Like, the Big East Red. Or the Big East Blue. Or the Big East White. Or something more clever.
DECISION MAKING ON HEAD COACHES: Ners. Or a carefully chosen panel of experts from each Big East School's most active message boards.
I am sure there are other logistical issues I am missing, such as fight songs, etc.
Or, we could just tell UCONN to F off. I don't know.
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Yes. Please. 20 game round robin is fantastic.
However, they should be forced to stay in the BE for basketball for a minimum of 10 years (without a giant buyout), or drop their football program or make it D2/3.
No reason they couldn't go D1 FCS like several other schools in the conference. It's probably the right place for them.
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I've seen nothing to indicate that UConn is dropping football, which gives me no reason to believe they're joining the Big East.
Losing 40 million a year might be an indication.
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I have no problem with them bringing football. I embrace football. In fact....
My suggestion is that the Big East Teams create one unified NCAA DIV I football team, financially supported by all of the Big East Teams on equal terms. There are some major logistical issues that would need to be resolved, but I would suggest the following:
CENTRAL LOCATION / HOME GAMES: Two Options: (1) The first would be to rotate annually, such that every 10 years, each school would host home games at their campus and provide practice facilities. Obviously, this would require the facilities and abilities to host these games, or maybe not really...maybe there is an advantage in designating the parking lot outside of the engineering building at Providence University as a home field, or President's Park near Georgetown. Imagine Notre Dame having to play on a makeshift field outside of LaLumiere Hall when at Marquette. (2) The second option would be to centralize the home field and practice facilities. I would suggest the BIG EAST purchase land somewhere as close to Notre Dame as possible, because F Notre Dame. Maybe the Lowe's a mile or two away from campus? Creating congestion and traffic gridlock would be a plus. Or, maybe following the Big Ten's lead with conference names that don't add up, the Big East could pick a location on the west coast.
STUDENT - ATHLETE DIPLOMAS: I acknowledge that at first blush it would be difficult to determine where someone should get a diploma if they played for the BIG EAST football team. But this is easily resolved. Each year, the starting quarterback throws footballs at targets covered with large paper covers. When the ball busts through the cover, you reach inside and VOILA! You get the diploma. It would be like Punch-A-Bunch on the Price is Right but less exciting.
TEAM COLORS: Easily resolved. The Big East already uses a red, white, and blue, color scheme.
TEAM NAME: The Big East could ask Tom Crean, as a dear friend of the Big East, to come up with a clever name that would work. Like, the Big East Red. Or the Big East Blue. Or the Big East White. Or something more clever.
DECISION MAKING ON HEAD COACHES: Ners. Or a carefully chosen panel of experts from each Big East School's most active message boards.
I am sure there are other logistical issues I am missing, such as fight songs, etc.
Or, we could just tell UCONN to F off. I don't know.
Ya had me in the 1st paragraph.
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Losing 40 million a year might be an indication.
Losing money is nothing new for the UConn football program (which lost $8.7 million last year, not $40 million, by the way).
Public universities make all their decisions publicly. The university's strategy for football was established as part of the UConn 2000 plan back in 1997, when the governor and board of trustees approved the plan to upgrade the program to Division I-A status.
Just this February, UConn's new president Thomas Katsouleas confirmed the university's commitment. Rather than making any cuts, the athletic department received $30 million in institutional support from the state and increased student fees another $8.5 million.
"I'm committed to football," Katsouleas said. "I think it's part of the identity of who we are as a major, broad-context university and I don't think the savings from cutting it are as great as people think. In fact, it has ancillary value for the other sports and for fundraising overall."
Doesn't sound like the administration is rethinking anything, no matter how much money they sink into football.
http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm (http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm)
http://advance.uconn.edu/1997/971020/10209702.htm (http://advance.uconn.edu/1997/971020/10209702.htm)
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-new-uconn-president-football-athletics-20190206-20190206-t5eld6bzxzhh3cocztri3y3vne-story.html (https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-new-uconn-president-football-athletics-20190206-20190206-t5eld6bzxzhh3cocztri3y3vne-story.html)
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Listen. They aren't dropping football altogether. If that is stipulated in order to join the Big East you can guarandamntee that they are not joining. Ever.
I went to Uconn games as a child when they played UNH, Holy Cross etc as a part of I-AA. They have spent a fortune and have no need to go back to that level - what in the world would make them do that?
The state has invested a ton - why call it and go bankrupt now?
Uconn football will be fine in the long term. They're never going to be amazing. They have made some atrocious organizational decisions and fans have gotten used to it. They get another Orlovsky for 4 years and that all changes.
The state of CT loves Uconn athletics as a whole (similar to UW in WI), and there is negligible desire among residents to cancel Uconn football. There would have to be an uprising. The state can afford it indefinitely.
The question is where do they put football. They could go Independent and that wouldn't totally surprise me. They could stay in the AAC for football and some other sports. Why not?
It seems like Scoop inevitably goes down this path every time this topic arises, a few times per year. It is a weird duality... A total obsession and nostalgia for Uconn combined with an absolute ultimatum that they slay the football program and form a blood pact with the BE.
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Unless this information is coming from a very wealthy and connected PC donor in Minneapolis, I’m calling BS.
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Pretty sure the entire contents of their intro to individual income tax class is "not a dime back"
Underrated comment.
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Listen. They aren't dropping football altogether. If that is stipulated in order to join the Big East you can guarandamntee that they are not joining. Ever.
I went to Uconn games as a child when they played UNH, Holy Cross etc as a part of I-AA. They have spent a fortune and have no need to go back to that level - what in the world would make them do that?
The state has invested a ton - why call it and go bankrupt now?
Uconn football will be fine in the long term. They're never going to be amazing. They have made some atrocious organizational decisions and fans have gotten used to it. They get another Orlovsky for 4 years and that all changes.
The state of CT loves Uconn athletics as a whole (similar to UW in WI), and there is negligible desire among residents to cancel Uconn football. There would have to be an uprising. The state can afford it indefinitely.
The question is where do they put football. They could go Independent and that wouldn't totally surprise me. They could stay in the AAC for football and some other sports. Why not?
It seems like Scoop inevitably goes down this path every time this topic arises, a few times per year. It is a weird duality... A total obsession and nostalgia for Uconn combined with an absolute ultimatum that they slay the football program and form a blood pact with the BE.
I don’t believe the AAC would allow them to do that. Why would they?
And I don’t think going independent in football makes much sense.
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Losing money is nothing new for the UConn football program (which lost $8.7 million last year, not $40 million, by the way).
Public universities make all their decisions publicly. The university's strategy for football was established as part of the UConn 2000 plan back in 1997, when the governor and board of trustees approved the plan to upgrade the program to Division I-A status.
Just this February, UConn's new president Thomas Katsouleas confirmed the university's commitment. Rather than making any cuts, the athletic department received $30 million in institutional support from the state and increased student fees another $8.5 million.
"I'm committed to football," Katsouleas said. "I think it's part of the identity of who we are as a major, broad-context university and I don't think the savings from cutting it are as great as people think. In fact, it has ancillary value for the other sports and for fundraising overall."
Doesn't sound like the administration is rethinking anything, no matter how much money they sink into football.
http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm (http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm)
http://advance.uconn.edu/1997/971020/10209702.htm (http://advance.uconn.edu/1997/971020/10209702.htm)
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-new-uconn-president-football-athletics-20190206-20190206-t5eld6bzxzhh3cocztri3y3vne-story.html (https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-new-uconn-president-football-athletics-20190206-20190206-t5eld6bzxzhh3cocztri3y3vne-story.html)
I'm not saying they are losing $40M on football, but they are losing far more than $8.7M. That number is after "creative accounting", e.g. assigning all merchandise sales as football revenue, even though no one is buying UCONN sporting apparel because of the basketball program...charging massive student activity fees, that gets assigned as "football revenue" even though it is just a charged fee to every student, and on and on.
The administration is well aware if they put the actual losses of football on paper, they would have more uproar from the average tax payer.
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It seems like Scoop inevitably goes down this path every time this topic arises, a few times per year. It is a weird duality... A total obsession and nostalgia for Uconn combined with an absolute ultimatum that they slay the football program and form a blood pact with the BE.
I go by what the Big East officials, school presidents and athletic directors have said publicly. Here's a quote from conference commissioner Val Ackerman back in November:
"We have talked about expansion at board meetings and within our AD group. The school kind of has to be the perfect fit. It's not a casual conversation. It's do they fit, do they share our focus on basketball, do they want to be with us long-term? Because nobody here is going anywhere."
UConn isn't focused on basketball. They don't want to be in the Big East long-term. They're not a good fit. Seems pretty simple.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jppelzman/2018/11/14/big-east-still-surviving-and-thriving-without-big-time-football/#6999c20058ac (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jppelzman/2018/11/14/big-east-still-surviving-and-thriving-without-big-time-football/#6999c20058ac)
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If they joined they would make less money per year and get less exposure than they do now with the espn deal
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If they joined they would make less money per year and get less exposure than they do now with the espn deal
Not really apples to apples. The AAC deal includes football and is only $2MM more than the Big East deal. $2MM for football is not very much. As for exposure, I can't say how many or when AAC games are on ESPN or the viewership. I don't watch AAC basketball.
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I go by what the Big East officials, school presidents and athletic directors have said publicly. Here's a quote from conference commissioner Val Ackerman back in November:
"We have talked about expansion at board meetings and within our AD group. The school kind of has to be the perfect fit. It's not a casual conversation. It's do they fit, do they share our focus on basketball, do they want to be with us long-term? Because nobody here is going anywhere."
UConn isn't focused on basketball. They don't want to be in the Big East long-term. They're not a good fit. Seems pretty simple.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jppelzman/2018/11/14/big-east-still-surviving-and-thriving-without-big-time-football/#6999c20058ac (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jppelzman/2018/11/14/big-east-still-surviving-and-thriving-without-big-time-football/#6999c20058ac)
I'm sorry, you're kidding yourself if you think Uconn isn't focused on basketball.
And basically proving my point. I don't get the intense interest alongside some distorted image of our own standing compared to theirs. If they are a pile of doodoo and unbecoming of the prestigious BE, then why do we need to rehash this argument 3-4x yearly? Let them play in the pig pen, that way we don't have to soil our image.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the Villanova boards, Saint John's, Creighton, Georgetown etc all similarly obsess over this topic? Are we as nostalgic about Uconn as everyone else?
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I'm sorry, you're kidding yourself if you think Uconn isn't focused on basketball.
And basically proving my point. I don't get the intense interest alongside some distorted image of our own standing compared to theirs. If they are a pile of doodoo and unbecoming of the prestigious BE, then why do we need to rehash this argument 3-4x yearly? Let them play in the pig pen, that way we don't have to soil our image.
Actually, it’s UConn who is kidding themselves if they think they’re focused on basketball. Otherwise they’d be in the BE by now.
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Actually, it’s UConn who is kidding themselves if they think they’re focused on basketball. Otherwise they’d be in the BE by now.
It is a zero sum game, according to fans from some other team which happens to not field football at all.
They spent a fortune on a stadium. It is a public flagship university. They are supported by the legislature.
You are also assuming that they should have presumed failure of the football leadership years ago and fixed that by offing the program. Monday morning quarterbacking is one of my favorite pastimes as well, but still, time travel does not exist... Yet.
(Ronald Mallett, a professor at Uconn, is studying time travel as we speak... Unsuccessfully)
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If they joined they would make less money per year and get less exposure than they do now with the espn deal
Few AAC basketball games are worth watching. They are back channeled on the “Ocho”. They get little exposure despite being on ESPN due to being in the AAC.
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I'm sorry, you're kidding yourself if you think Uconn isn't focused on basketball.
I know basketball is important to UConn. But they're not solely focused on basketball as the main revenue stream the same way the Big East schools are.
UConn doesn't see itself as a basketball-focused school. Look at the language their president used: "major, broad-context university." UConn sees itself belonging with the likes of Michigan or Texas -- not Marquette or Providence. It's all right there in the UConn 2000 plan. (Yes, it actually compares UConn to Michigan.) And their primary focus has been building the football program to get an invite from a power football conference.
I don't think UConn is unworthy of the Big East. Just not a good fit.
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Like others have said, I only want them if they drop DI football.
Why? Three other BE schools make it work at various levels.
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Why? Three other BE schools make it work at various levels.
None of those three were ever at the FBS level or have a taxpayer funded stadium that cost over $90 million.
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If they joined they would make less money per year and get less exposure than they do now with the espn deal
How would UConn get less exposure? The Big East gets 19 games on OTA Fox & 4 games on OTA CBS. Most of any league. Also, many games in the AAC are going to ESPN+. Most on are ESPNU. FS1 is in 20 million more homes than ESPNU.
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
Only DePaul cares about that. Someone wake them up to get their opinion.
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
Would be 20 game BE schedule. While others are going to a 20 game unbalanced schedule soon, the BE would still have a round robin where all play each team home and home. 11 teams actually makes sense. Now, as to an 11th team........?
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
Top 5 get byes.
1st round
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9
Quarterfinals
1 vs 8/9
2 vs 7/10
3 vs 6/11
4 vs 5
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
5 byes, 3 first round games.
Sorry - Lazar beat me to it.
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Top 5 get byes.
1st round
6 vs 11
7 vs 10
8 vs 9
Quarterfinals
1 vs 8/9
2 vs 7/10
3 vs 6/11
4 vs 5
Yup, Big 10 did it for years
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None of those three were ever at the FBS level or have a taxpayer funded stadium that cost over $90 million.
That's really the issue. If you have FBS football, you really have to be all in on that. That has to be what drives your conference membership because it is too much of an investment.
And I doubt they drop to FCS.
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Sell out.......
Hillary Clinton can be commissioner.........
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What happens in the BET with 11 teams?
This only makes sense to “UCONN” basketball fans.
Makes a lot more sense then zaga or st Mary's
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Zags will never happen. They should go to the mountain west. St Mary's has an awesome rugby program, and that is about it.
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Zags will never happen. They should go to the mountain west. St Mary's has an awesome rugby program, and that is about it.
Gonzaga was invited and turned them down. They have to consider more than just basketball and it would have had a detrimental effect on their athletic programs overall. They would be the smallest MWC school, the lowest funded and have the smallest basketball facility. Stay in the WCC and they have a guaranteed NCAA tourney bid every year.
SMC hoops will be good as long as Bennett is around (top 20 in pre-season polls) and he's not leaving SMC until he retires. Men's Soccer has become strong for them too. Unfortunately, the president vetoed a new hoops facility so they're stuck in a glorified high school gym for the foreseeable future.
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None of those three were ever at the FBS level or have a taxpayer funded stadium that cost over $90 million.
Villanova was.
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Villanova was.
Not since it was reinstated.
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Hartford Courant reporting “done deal” for all sports save football
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Hartford Courant reporting “done deal” for all sports save football
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-conference-aac-20190622-20190622-qgewcp6jhvd5fd4lenxr5vnncm-story.html
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It’s happening
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I just hope their history of squirmy behavior has been righted. We shall see.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1142444801025085440
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Is there any chatter about the big east adding a 12th team?
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Wow. I was completely wrong about that. Glad for the BE. UConn was by far the best option for expansion. Makes the conference stronger for sure.
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Wow. Looks pretty official to me.
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Wow. I was completely wrong about that. Glad for the BE. UConn was by far the best option for expansion. Makes the conference stronger for sure.
Well...not the best, 2nd best. The Zags would have been the best, but obviously that wasn't workable.
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Is there any chatter about the big east adding a 12th team?
11 is the only way to keep round Robin, so doubtful
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Well...not the best, 2nd best. The Zags would have been the best, but obviously that wasn't workable.
would have been a logistical nightmare for everyone.
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Well...not the best, 2nd best. The Zags would have been the best, but obviously that wasn't workable.
Yeah I was taking the geography into consideration. If the Zags were in a place like Denver, they would be by far the best candidate.
Kudos to the leadership for holding out for a solid option and not doing the easy thing and taking SLU or Dayton. (Of course Fox had a say in that.)
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1142449363941253122
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I just hope their history of squirmy behavior has been righted. We shall see.
Who cares? We’ve been on the right side of rivalries for a long time and held our own.
My God we play in a conference with Creighton right now.
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Well...not the best, 2nd best. The Zags would have been the best, but obviously that wasn't workable.
Except Zags have little in common with the Big East, we don’t know when Few retires if they slip away, UCOnn has history with Big East, natural fit geographically, better academics, several national titles, etc, etc.
Not sure how the Zags are a better fit, especially long term now that UConn has decided football is going to fight on their own probably as an independent or MAC team.
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Who cares? We’ve been on the right side of rivalries for a long time and held our own.
My God we play in a conference with Creighton right now.
Some of us do, some don’t. We are entitled to our opinions and our hope people are playing the right way, within the rules. You must be a Buzz fan, eh?
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I wonder if these conversations were happening when the BE extended its deal with MSG?
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Excellent news!
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Much of this stems from the recent AAC TV deal. The conference ignored almost all of UCONN's interests, despite the fact that UCONN being a part of the league makes it enticing to networks.
The Big East will give UCONN the exposure it needs, and wants, for Men's and Women's basketball.
I wonder what UCONN leaving will mean/do in regards to the AAC's recent TV deal.
Also, the AAC likely misplayed their hand. They thought football was king, and that there was no way that UCONN would possibly orphan their football program because of the loss in basketball exposure.
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I like this for women's basketball. Otherwise, they do little for me. Worthwhile add, better than most alternatives. I wonder how MU's women's seeds may have been impacted the last 3 years with the Huskies in the league. Even had they just gone 2-4 or 1-5 in that time.
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Brew UConn is a big college basketball name with a hot young coach. Why don’t they do much for you?
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Much of this stems from the recent AAC TV deal. The conference ignored almost all of UCONN's interests, despite the fact that UCONN being a part of the league makes it enticing to networks.
The Big East will give UCONN the exposure it needs, and wants, for Men's and Women's basketball.
I wonder what UCONN leaving will mean/do in regards to the AAC's recent TV deal.
Also, the AAC likely misplayed their hand. They thought football was king, and that there was no way that UCONN would possibly orphan their football program because of the loss in basketball exposure.
The UConn AD thinks he has a bigger wanker then he really does, so they were frustrated. They also do not get the concept of incremental exposure on ESPN+ and Aresco had to publicly set UConn and others straight on this at a press conference. I’m sure that didn’t sit well with them.
The latest AAC deal was for $1 billion, which wasn’t a bad deal for the schools they have.
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Brew UConn is a big college basketball name with a hot young coach. Why don’t they do much for you?
I mean, I'm kind of with Brew on this one...if the Big East was going to add, UCONN was by far the best fit, I mean I wanted NO part of SLU or Dayton. That being said, when these things(like expansion occur), the #1 thing I look at is does it improve the quality of the basketball ON the floor. Not concerned about TV contracts or anything else like that. That being said, UCONN hasn't exactly set the world on fire as far as their BB program goes for awhile now. From a PURE quality of basketball addition(obviously more goes into it), the Zags were by far the best choice. Uconn, to me, with the current state of their program is adding a team more on the Butler, Creighton realm, then on the Nova realm. Decent, but nothing that makes you want to rush out and buy tickets for just that game. Now, can/will they get better?? That remains to be seen, you'd like to think so, but as far as right now...and their men's BB product, it's...meh.
Now, if you add Uconn, and boot DePaul..then you improve the conference more IMO.
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Wow it actually happened
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Brew UConn is a big college basketball name with a hot young coach. Why don’t they do much for you?
It seems a bit odd, especially as I'm not religious, but I feel the goals of the current teams in the league align very well. Mostly Catholic, all religious in nature, smaller schools, adding a big state school that has always had their eyes on the Big 10 or ACC feels like such an outlier.
I don't know, this Big East feels like a family, and UConn's not part of that. Hell, their ambitions were as instrumental in the divorce 6 years ago as anyone. I don't trust them and feel like they're largely just a surplus name that gets people excited because of an era that is over.
We will never be THAT Big East again. The monster that was is gone. And from a stability point, I have concerns about chasing it. Sure, today it's just UConn, but maybe in a year it's UConn and Cincy, then more AAC programs, then the league that we deliberately left in the first place.
UConn isn't here because UConn isn't like us. UConn isn't here because UConn thought they didn't need us. I don't get why people are so anxious to get back into bed with them.
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I understand it from UConn's perspective. I understand it from Fox Sports perspective. I don't have to like it. Hope it doesn't blow everything up.
Welcome, UConn.
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Despite recent struggles, UConn is still a top 10-15 program all time. I'm confident than they will be back to their winning ways in a few years once they have the Big East brand supporting them. I'm not sure what they do with football, but I think this will be a win for everyone....except the AAC.
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I mean, I'm kind of with Brew on this one...if the Big East was going to add, UCONN was by far the best fit, I mean I wanted NO part of SLU or Dayton. That being said, when these things(like expansion occur), the #1 thing I look at is does it improve the quality of the basketball ON the floor. Not concerned about TV contracts or anything else like that. That being said, UCONN hasn't exactly set the world on fire as far as their BB program goes for awhile now. From a PURE quality of basketball addition(obviously more goes into it), the Zags were by far the best choice. Uconn, to me, with the current state of their program is adding a team more on the Butler, Creighton realm, then on the Nova realm. Decent, but nothing that makes you want to rush out and buy tickets for just that game. Now, can/will they get better?? That remains to be seen, you'd like to think so, but as far as right now...and their men's BB product, it's...meh.
Now, if you add Uconn, and boot DePaul..then you improve the conference more IMO.
Well you should be concerned about the TV contracts as that is meaningful. Teams come and go unless you are elite, being an MU fan you should know this better than most. Xavier wasn’t that good 20 years ago, nor was Wisconsin or Gonzaga. UCLA has been in a rut, as has UCONN. Exposure means a lot, and money buys it. That has killed the PAC 12. They are all intertwined.
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Despite recent struggles, UConn is still a top 10-15 program all time. I'm confident than they will be back to their winning ways in a few years once they have the Big East brand supporting them. I'm not sure what they do with football, but I think this will be a win for everyone....except the AAC.
The AAC might, I say might, see this an addition by subtraction.
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Well you should be concerned about the TV contracts as that is meaningful. Teams come and go unless you are elite, being an MU fan you should know this better than most. Xavier wasn’t that good 20 years ago, nor was Wisconsin or Gonzaga. UCLA has been in a rut, as has UCONN. Exposure means a lot, and money buys it. That has killed the PAC 12. They are all intertwined.
I agree. UCONN is a solid addition. Great fan base and broadens our NYC Metro market reach for TV. Zags were never gong to happen. Good move by the BE and strengthens the brand.
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I think it's a good move, as long as we stop here with FB schools.
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It seems a bit odd, especially as I'm not religious, but I feel the goals of the current teams in the league align very well. Mostly Catholic, all religious in nature, smaller schools, adding a big state school that has always had their eyes on the Big 10 or ACC feels like such an outlier.
I don't know, this Big East feels like a family, and UConn's not part of that. Hell, their ambitions were as instrumental in the divorce 6 years ago as anyone. I don't trust them and feel like they're largely just a surplus name that gets people excited because of an era that is over.
We will never be THAT Big East again. The monster that was is gone. And from a stability point, I have concerns about chasing it. Sure, today it's just UConn, but maybe in a year it's UConn and Cincy, then more AAC programs, then the league that we deliberately left in the first place.
UConn isn't here because UConn isn't like us. UConn isn't here because UConn thought they didn't need us. I don't get why people are so anxious to get back into bed with them.
Generally I am with you on not wanting to get back together with these people.
The issue here is that the other major leagues are going to 20 game conference schedules. Which means fewer good non con opportunities over time. Big East needs to maintain its position relative to other leagues. Right now we can dictate the terms of the deal and that may not be the case a few years from now.
AAC has been picking up momentum and it’s not the worst place for U Conn. Their league has a bumbling commissioner who essentially threw U Conn under the bus to get a TV deal that disproportionately benefitted teams like East Carolina , Tulane etc. and most importantly keeps UCF Football in the fold. Big East gets a nice benefit from the AAC lack of competence and inherent instability.
Part of any deal has to be a penalty and other restrictions to minimize the disruption of U Conn football . Those strictures are very much a possibility at this point.
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I like it. It's been pretty well accepted that the league is going to 11 teams (and let's keep it there). UConn hasn't been great lately but that can be attributed to the quality of recruits. It's got to be hard to recruit kids when your trying to sell games versus ECU, Tulane and the rest of the league. Houston has been good for two years. Cincy and Temple been OK. Memphis is on its way back but not much there. Hurley now has a lot more to sell and should be able to turn things around with being in the BE.
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What is the benefit to MU and other BE teams? Seems like this is a better thing for UCONN then the other BE teams. If might help the league as a whole a bit but so what? The league has done just fine on it own so far. Does MU get more money or what out of this?
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What is the benefit to MU and other BE teams? Seems like this is a better thing for UCONN then the other BE teams. If might help the league as a whole a bit but so what? The league has done just fine on it own so far. Does MU get more money or what out of this?
As another poster noted, the move to a 20 game conference season is huge relative to future scheduling.
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This results in one additional conference game at home, and one additional road conference game. It would seem the loss of at least one “buy” game. Just curious what the anticipated lost revenue from a buy game gets absorbed with higher revenue/reduced costs elsewhere.
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With the Big Ten, ACC and the Pac-12 doing or moving in playing 20 conference games is the future. The Big East needs to be in that future. You are adding 20 conference games to it's leagues schedule. You will be getting rid of 20 cupcake games to the non-conference schedule. UConn is a national brand in men's and women's basketball. With the things I listed, are huge to FOX SPORTS. $$$$$$$
As a season ticket holder, moving to 10 conference home games is outstanding! Goodbye Grambling State, hello Connecticut.
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Generally I am with you on not wanting to get back together with these people.
The issue here is that the other major leagues are going to 20 game conference schedules. Which means fewer good non con opportunities over time. Big East needs to maintain its position relative to other leagues. Right now we can dictate the terms of the deal and that may not be the case a few years from now.
AAC has been picking up momentum and it’s not the worst place for U Conn. Their league has a bumbling commissioner who essentially threw U Conn under the bus to get a TV deal that disproportionately benefitted teams like East Carolina , Tulane etc. and most importantly keeps UCF Football in the fold. Big East gets a nice benefit from the AAC lack of competence and inherent instability.
Part of any deal has to be a penalty and other restrictions to minimize the disruption of U Conn football . Those strictures are very much a possibility at this point.
Herman, I love you brother but disagree on Aresco. First, he is a UConn alum from their law school. He is not trying to throw them under the bus. Tufts grad, very smart (Phi Beta Kappa)...I worked with him for years when he was at CBS Sports. He has an obligation for the entire conference, not just UConn....that’s what a Commissioner is supposed to do, what’s best for the entire conference. He just got a billion dollar deal for those schools. He is stuck with a patchwork group of schools with one foot out the door and harking back to days long ago who still think the glory days are here. That is an impossible position to be in, but you do the best you can which he has. If UConn feels they were thrown under the bus, they can blame themselves for the position they put themselves in with the decisions they made that got them in this spot in the first place.
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It seems a bit odd, especially as I'm not religious, but I feel the goals of the current teams in the league align very well. Mostly Catholic, all religious in nature, smaller schools, adding a big state school that has always had their eyes on the Big 10 or ACC feels like such an outlier.
I don't know, this Big East feels like a family, and UConn's not part of that. Hell, their ambitions were as instrumental in the divorce 6 years ago as anyone. I don't trust them and feel like they're largely just a surplus name that gets people excited because of an era that is over.
We will never be THAT Big East again. The monster that was is gone. And from a stability point, I have concerns about chasing it. Sure, today it's just UConn, but maybe in a year it's UConn and Cincy, then more AAC programs, then the league that we deliberately left in the first place.
UConn isn't here because UConn isn't like us. UConn isn't here because UConn thought they didn't need us. I don't get why people are so anxious to get back into bed with them.
Yep, this is the way I feel. When things turn favorable for UConn they will be the first to leave the Big East.
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Yep, this is the way I feel. When things turn favorable for UConn they will be the first to leave the Big East.
First off, Big East has to vote to let them in....likely a foregone conclusion. To prevent what you are concerned about they should require a media grant of rights provision which I suspect may already exist. That puts a major penalty on a school leaving and is enforceable by law. The thing with UConn is... where are they going to go with crap football? Who is going to take them?
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Yep, this is the way I feel. When things turn favorable for UConn they will be the first to leave the Big East.
Val is pretty smart. Gotta imagine there are going to be some ridiculous buyout clauses.
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Yep, this is the way I feel. When things turn favorable for UConn they will be the first to leave the Big East.
Then the conference can cash their check and move on. Conference memberships aren't permanent. It works until it doesn't. In the meantime, it works for everyone.
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Don’t like it.
As brew said they aren’t like us (current ten).
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Don’t like it.
As brew said they aren’t like us (current ten).
You don't leave good options on the table just to keep everyone the same.
The WCC added BYU a few years ago under similar circumstances. It is hard to argue that it hasn't worked for the conference. And eventually they may leave due to football - and that's OK.
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Religious affiliation of a school shouldn't be relevant imo. People have personal religious/ non religious views. just keep it at that.
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This is the best day for Marquette basketball since we beat Miami in 2013. UConn is a national brand much stronger than any school in the Big East. This is manna from heaven. If you don’t see the value, I’m frankly a little worried about how you perceive the National sports landscape.
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Some of us do, some don’t. We are entitled to our opinions and our hope people are playing the right way, within the rules. You must be a Buzz fan, eh?
I am a Buzz fan but that’s not really relevant. Creighton is smack dab in the middle of this latest college hoops scandal and you’re worried about UConn being squirmy? We run a clean program and we can usually beat the so called cheaters. I guess I don’t see the concern. Come tourney time you’re going to play everyone. Might as well get prepped in conference.
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This is the best day for Marquette basketball since we beat Miami in 2013. UConn is a national brand much stronger than any school in the Big East. This is manna from heaven. If you don’t see the value, I’m frankly a little worried about how you perceive the National sports landscape.
Nice dig at Wojo and Buzz puffery. :)
Nova has a better national brand currently than UConn.
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The UConn AD thinks he has a bigger wanker then he really does, so they were frustrated. They also do not get the concept of incremental exposure on ESPN+ and Aresco had to publicly set UConn and others straight on this at a press conference. I’m sure that didn’t sit well with them.
The latest AAC deal was for $1 billion, which wasn’t a bad deal for the schools they have.
It wasn't a bad deal, but it was way less than they wanted, and less than they needed to be able to weather football expenses/debt.
The problem for UCONN is that having its basketball games on SNY is huge for recruiting, donations, exposure, and reputation. The new deal gutted those opportunities to appease the football side, e.g. UCF.
Not saying who was wrong or right, just saying that is what precipitated this move.
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I am a Buzz fan but that’s not really relevant. Creighton is smack dab in the middle of this latest college hoops scandal and you’re worried about UConn being squirmy? We run a clean program and we can usually beat the so called cheaters. I guess I don’t see the concern. Come tourney time you’re going to play everyone. Might as well get prepped in conference.
I am waiting to see what exactly is going on with Creighton. There have been instances of asst coaches doing things that allegedly the head coach didn’t know about....I can think of several just in the last decade at MU. Creighton got into trouble with Benoit Benjamin back in the day, too.
UConn with Jim at the helm was squirmy as hell for a long time. Sorry, I don’t see the parallels between the two yet, but let’s see how it plays out.
UConn, it was their business practice day to day to act as they did.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/ncaab--jim-calhoun-s-conflicted-legacy-at-uconn-includes-plenty-of-wins--controversy.html
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Nice dig at Wojo and Buzz puffery. :)
Nova has a better national brand currently than UConn.
Perhaps. But now we have another one.
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First off, Big East has to vote to let them in....likely a foregone conclusion. To prevent what you are concerned about they should require a media grant of rights provision which I suspect may already exist. That puts a major penalty on a school leaving and is enforceable by law. The thing with UConn is... where are they going to go with crap football? Who is going to take them?
Well all that being true, I believe that UConn has shown that Football is the real tail that wags this dog. And right now the tail is bruised and not wagging, and its seems like they continue to throw money into it, of course its nice to have Mama State to help. When health returns, I think the BE gets a Dear John letter.
As for buy out protection, I didn't think I'd see the days of 100 million $ pro players. If they really want out they will find a way. Donors, networks, Political friends, etc.
But, the strongest feeling I have is the Chemistry, it seem their is out of sync with us.
Oh well Progress is our most important problem.
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As a season ticket holder, moving to 10 conference home games is outstanding! Goodbye Grambling State, hello Connecticut.
More likely a home and home (e.g. Vandy) is gone. You’ll still have to pay for Grambling.
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It wasn't a bad deal, but it was way less than they wanted, and less than they needed to be able to weather football expenses/debt.
The problem for UCONN is that having its basketball games on SNY is huge for recruiting, donations, exposure, and reputation. The new deal gutted those opportunities to appease the football side, e.g. UCF.
Not saying who was wrong or right, just saying that is what precipitated this move.
Understood, but what UConn wanted and what the market would bear to bail them out are two different things. UConn hasn’t had a grasp on financial reality or their value in the eco system for quite some time. Maybe this finally gets them pointed to the proper reality, but that means writing down football in a big way.
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Well all that being true, I believe that UConn has shown that Football is the real tail that wags this dog. And right now the tail is bruised and not wagging, and its seems like they continue to throw money into it, of course its nice to have Mama State to help. When health returns, I think the BE gets a Dear John letter.
As for buy out protection, I didn't think I'd see the days of 100 million $ pro players. If they really want out they will find a way. Donors, networks, Political friends, etc.
But, the strongest feeling I have is the Chemistry, it seem their is out of sync with us.
Oh well Progress is our most important problem.
It’s not just a buyout with grant in rights....they have to leave their earned credits and media dollars with the conference, too. It is a double poison pill. Yes, someone will come to the aid, but it will hurt plenty and comes with an opportunity cost.
Because we played with them in the old Big East I am not worried about fit too much.
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Understood, but what UConn wanted and what the market would bear to bail them out are two different things. UConn hasn’t had a grasp on financial reality or their value in the eco system for quite some time. Maybe this finally gets them pointed to the proper reality, but that means writing down football in a big way.
Pretty much what this says.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2019/06/22/uconn-rejoining-big-east-aac-means-given-up-on-football/1536302001/
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More likely a home and home (e.g. Vandy) is gone. You’ll still have to pay for Grambling.
Yup. People don’t get the revenue side here. Home and aways do not help as much on the revenue side, plus coaches and programs want a few cupcake wins. Those aren’t going away and thus the non conf games will take the hit.
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Yup. People don’t get the revenue side here. Home and aways do not help as much on the revenue side, plus coaches and programs want a few cupcake wins. Those aren’t going away and thus the non conf games will take the hit.
Exactly, we might not have any more home & homes outside of Bucky but UConn is a name that MKE recognizes and will outperform a K State or UGA game. Adding UConn to the home sked every year is a fantastic thing. Not to mention adding another road game on the East Coast.
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Who cares? We’ve been on the right side of rivalries for a long time and held our own.
My God we play in a conference with Creighton right now.
Chico is a selective squirmer - squirmed during Buzz for stuff he ignored under Crean. His fandom doesn't reach back to Al, but if he was honest he would squirm even more about that era.
When we played in a conference with UCONN, Louisville and Syracuse it was awesome.
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I wonder how this affects FOIA.
With UConn being a public school, journalists will now be able to tap into the conference's inner workings, no?
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I wonder how this affects FOIA.
With UConn being a public school, journalists will now be able to tap into the conference's inner workings, no?
I said this in the other topic:
"The BE doesn’t have to open it’s books but you can infer financial information about the BE due to UConns books being open. My guess is that most of it is as reported."
My guess is there really isn't much going on that hasn't been inferred already.
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If Notre Dame is actually interested in an annual home and home (I'm a skeptic, but heard that rumor of late) adding UConn will likely end that. Unlikely Marquette would be willing to commit as many as 8/11 (UWM, ND, Gavitt, B12, 4x Exempt) to non-buy games.
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This is great. We make the bball conf stronger. Good for woman’s b-ball. Better than most home and home deals over the last 5 years.
Also good for UConn. Probably one of the best or second best program ‘free agents’ still open to changing conferences for b-ball.
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Understood, but what UConn wanted and what the market would bear to bail them out are two different things. UConn hasn’t had a grasp on financial reality or their value in the eco system for quite some time. Maybe this finally gets them pointed to the proper reality, but that means writing down football in a big way.
Solid research report on U Conn football future.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2019/06/22/uconn-rejoining-big-east-aac-means-given-up-on-football/1536302001/
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Then the conference can cash their check and move on. Conference memberships aren't permanent. It works until it doesn't. In the meantime, it works for everyone.
This is precisely where I am on this.
Glad to have an original BEast member back in the league. Excellent basketball brand. Get 10 conference home games; would rather play home conference game against UConn than a home non-conference game against anybody other than Wis and ND. Huge add for conference women's hoops. Program on way back up.
If they leave again, I'll thank them for the $$$$ and worry about it when it happens.
If we really had a chance at home-and-home with ND and if this means that can't happen, that would be the only negative at all IMHO. And given how ND has turned tail on the rivalry for years now, I have my doubts that would have ever happened.
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Solid research report on U Conn football future.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2019/06/22/uconn-rejoining-big-east-aac-means-given-up-on-football/1536302001/
That’s not research. It is an opinion piece. One that I already posted.
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This is probably a long term thinking move by UConn on a few fronts. Even if the ACC were to expand, it’s doubtful they see UConn as a market they need to expand into. The Big XII will likely expand at some point, and I doubt that’s a market they’d actively look to add.
What is likely, the AAC will be ripe for the pickings should either of those leagues expand. We can laugh at UCF all we want, but it would behoove the Big XII to seriously consider a Florida school and UCF is the most attractive option and a school seemingly committed to winning in all sports.
Memphis would be attractive as well. There is money available for the programs to succeed. Houston or SMU would bolt for a chance to join a better league as fast as they could. Anyway you slice it, the current situation for the AAC is tenuous at best. I think it can be a good hoops league but the dregs really hurt them.
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I think the Big 12 explored the benefits of expanding by 1-2 teams just a year or two ago... And decided not to, much to the dismay of Cincinnati.
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I think the Big 12 explored the benefits of expanding by 1-2 teams just a year or two ago... And decided not to, much to the dismay of Cincinnati.
They did and I suspect they will again. I like their league as is. Round robin for hoops and each team plays one another in football. No unbalanced schedules
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Yep, this is the way I feel. When things turn favorable for UConn they will be the first to leave the Big East.
And?
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More likely a home and home (e.g. Vandy) is gone. You’ll still have to pay for Grambling.
Hard to say, as it doesn't look like we have a new H/H starting this year at Fiserv Forum.
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I think the Big 12 explored the benefits of expanding by 1-2 teams just a year or two ago... And decided not to, much to the dismay of Cincinnati.
Also to the dismay of UCF.
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This is probably a long term thinking move by UConn on a few fronts. Even if the ACC were to expand, it’s doubtful they see UConn as a market they need to expand into. The Big XII will likely expand at some point, and I doubt that’s a market they’d actively look to add.
What is likely, the AAC will be ripe for the pickings should either of those leagues expand. We can laugh at UCF all we want, but it would behoove the Big XII to seriously consider a Florida school and UCF is the most attractive option and a school seemingly committed to winning in all sports.
Memphis would be attractive as well. There is money available for the programs to succeed. Houston or SMU would bolt for a chance to join a better league as fast as they could. Anyway you slice it, the current situation for the AAC is tenuous at best. I think it can be a good hoops league but the dregs really hurt them.
Boston College would block anyway
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And?
They Leave and what ever happens, happens. I have no ideas what events, issues, problems etc. occurs between now and when they leave that might affect us.
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AAC going to make it hard on U Conn.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/with-a-big-east-move-expected-uconn-will-not-be-welcome-in-aac-as-football-only-member/
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AAC going to make it hard on U Conn.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/with-a-big-east-move-expected-uconn-will-not-be-welcome-in-aac-as-football-only-member/
That article already made my head hurt with a typo in the first sentence (Seaason).
Unacceptable.
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AAC going to make it hard on U Conn.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/with-a-big-east-move-expected-uconn-will-not-be-welcome-in-aac-as-football-only-member/
Hmmm...
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Memphis is as dirty as they come. No thanks. Fortunately they have enough football success that we don’t have to worry about it...I hope
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https://mobile.twitter.com/TheAndyKatz/status/1142802923996569600
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https://mobile.twitter.com/TheAndyKatz/status/1142802923996569600
I'm very interested in all the people saying UConn will bail because of football. UConn never bailed, the big east bailed on them.
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I'm very interested in all the people saying UConn will bail because of football. UConn never bailed, the big east bailed on them.
It is more accurate to say they would have bailed if given the chance. But of course if Nova, Georgetown...or Marquette...were asked to join the ACC as a non-football member, they would have bailed too.
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I think the Big 12 explored the benefits of expanding by 1-2 teams just a year or two ago... And decided not to, much to the dismay of Cincinnati.
The next movement is likely 2023 if I recall, that is when the next round of major tv deals are up.
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I'm very interested in all the people saying UConn will bail because of football. UConn never bailed, the big east bailed on them.
Sort of, kind of....messy because of of how C7 formed new Big East and bought the name back. I see your point for sure, but it is a bit complicated.
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I'm very interested in all the people saying UConn will bail because of football. UConn never bailed, the big east bailed on them.
They bailed on big east basketball. They were 100% voting for all those crap schools joining just to benefit football. They didn't bail on the big east they bailed on the foundation of it
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Multiple articles have said that a big driver for UConn leaving the AAC was how the AAC leadership disregarded UConn's connection to the SNY network.
I'm not familiar with how the UConn/SNY relationship works, but does moving to the Big East somehow keep UConn happy with regards to SNY?
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Multiple articles have said that a big driver for UConn leaving the AAC was how the AAC leadership disregarded UConn's connection to the SNY network.
I'm not familiar with how the UConn/SNY relationship works, but does moving to the Big East somehow keep UConn happy with regards to SNY?
AAC was not against SNY relationship, this is a bit of a red herring by UConn. I posted article yesterday with Aresco going through much of this to explain the situation.
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AAC was not against SNY relationship, this is a bit of a red herring by UConn. I posted article yesterday with Aresco going through much of this to explain the situation.
I must have missed that article. So is the SNY deal a supplemental deal to the conference-wide AAC deal? Will UConn have a similar side deal while they're in the Big East?
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Multiple articles have said that a big driver for UConn leaving the AAC was how the AAC leadership disregarded UConn's connection to the SNY network.
I'm not familiar with how the UConn/SNY relationship works, but does moving to the Big East somehow keep UConn happy with regards to SNY?
Fox has sold off some of its product to SNY over the years. Will most likely continue.
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I must have missed that article. So is the SNY deal a supplemental deal to the conference-wide AAC deal? Will UConn have a similar side deal while they're in the Big East?
https://www.courant.com/sports/hc-sp-mike-aresco-aac-commissioner-espn-tv-20190506-5dep7moehrdkhkdjoj22yvsnqm-story.html
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I don't think I've ever seen a fanbase so split along sport lines as UConn. The basketball fans and football fans legitimately seem to hate each other.
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I'm very interested in all the people saying UConn will bail because of football. UConn never bailed, the big east bailed on them.
If UConn could join the ACC or Big 10, whether leaving the AAC or Big East, they would in a heartbeat. And yes, the C7 was the party that left. And we left because UConn and the other football schools were driving the bus right off the cliff with the addition of nonsensical schools like Tulsa, ECU, San Diego State, and Boise State.
Which is exactly why I'm hesitant to offer UConn a seat on the bus right behind the driver. They need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Look at the results of the past 5 years. The Big East has been a better league than the American every year, never ranked lower than 5th (and top-3 4/5 years), and sent 56% (28 in 5 years) teams to the NCAA Tournament while winning 2 national titles.
UConn has been to 1 tournament in that span, been ranked in the top-70 of kenpom once, and won 1 NCAA game. Is that because of Kevin Ollie? Maybe, but Dan Hurley's first year saw UConn ranked lower than all but one of Ollie's teams and UConn was never a traditional powerhouse before Jim Calhoun.
If they drop out of FBS football and agree to never return, then the conversation should start with very strict penalties if they leave. Part of the strength of this league and the strength it presents to the rest of Division 1 is that our teams are going NOWHERE. NO ONE is leaving. Period. And everyone knows that. No one calls on Big East teams when they want to expand. Add UConn with D1 FBS football and that could change. They are not like us.
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AAC was not against SNY relationship, this is a bit of a red herring by UConn. I posted article yesterday with Aresco going through much of this to explain the situation.
This isn't exactly true, and it is not what Aresco said. Aresco said he would bless an agreement between ESPN and SNY. That is different than the AAC not being against an SNY relationship.
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If UConn could join the ACC or Big 10, whether leaving the AAC or Big East, they would in a heartbeat. And yes, the C7 was the party that left. And we left because UConn and the other football schools were driving the bus right off the cliff with the addition of nonsensical schools like Tulsa, ECU, San Diego State, and Boise State.
Which is exactly why I'm hesitant to offer UConn a seat on the bus right behind the driver. They need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Look at the results of the past 5 years. The Big East has been a better league than the American every year, never ranked lower than 5th (and top-3 4/5 years), and sent 56% (28 in 5 years) teams to the NCAA Tournament while winning 2 national titles.
UConn has been to 1 tournament in that span, been ranked in the top-70 of kenpom once, and won 1 NCAA game. Is that because of Kevin Ollie? Maybe, but Dan Hurley's first year saw UConn ranked lower than all but one of Ollie's teams and UConn was never a traditional powerhouse before Jim Calhoun.
If they drop out of FBS football and agree to never return, then the conversation should start with very strict penalties if they leave. Part of the strength of this league and the strength it presents to the rest of Division 1 is that our teams are going NOWHERE. NO ONE is leaving. Period. And everyone knows that. No one calls on Big East teams when they want to expand. Add UConn with D1 FBS football and that could change. They are not like us.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58839.msg1140210#msg1140210
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If UConn could join the ACC or Big 10, whether leaving the AAC or Big East, they would in a heartbeat. And yes, the C7 was the party that left. And we left because UConn and the other football schools were driving the bus right off the cliff with the addition of nonsensical schools like Tulsa, ECU, San Diego State, and Boise State.
Which is exactly why I'm hesitant to offer UConn a seat on the bus right behind the driver. They need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Look at the results of the past 5 years. The Big East has been a better league than the American every year, never ranked lower than 5th (and top-3 4/5 years), and sent 56% (28 in 5 years) teams to the NCAA Tournament while winning 2 national titles.
UConn has been to 1 tournament in that span, been ranked in the top-70 of kenpom once, and won 1 NCAA game. Is that because of Kevin Ollie? Maybe, but Dan Hurley's first year saw UConn ranked lower than all but one of Ollie's teams and UConn was never a traditional powerhouse before Jim Calhoun.
If they drop out of FBS football and agree to never return, then the conversation should start with very strict penalties if they leave. Part of the strength of this league and the strength it presents to the rest of Division 1 is that our teams are going NOWHERE. NO ONE is leaving. Period. And everyone knows that. No one calls on Big East teams when they want to expand. Add UConn with D1 FBS football and that could change. They are not like us.
Pick up one school and then lose them at a later time is or 9% of the conference is barely even a news story.
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This isn't exactly true, and it is not what Aresco said. Aresco said he would bless an agreement between ESPN and SNY. That is different than the AAC not being against an SNY relationship.
They are not against the relationship at all.
Are you trying to say he would bless an arrangement and at the same time against a relationship????
I think where we do agree is espn could be against the relationship, but that has yet to be decided. With Uconn now leaving, it will be a moot point and SNY and Uconn can continue with their own deal, but the AAC was not against a SNY UConn relationship.
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If UConn could join the ACC or Big 10, whether leaving the AAC or Big East, they would in a heartbeat. And yes, the C7 was the party that left. And we left because UConn and the other football schools were driving the bus right off the cliff with the addition of nonsensical schools like Tulsa, ECU, San Diego State, and Boise State.
Which is exactly why I'm hesitant to offer UConn a seat on the bus right behind the driver. They need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Look at the results of the past 5 years. The Big East has been a better league than the American every year, never ranked lower than 5th (and top-3 4/5 years), and sent 56% (28 in 5 years) teams to the NCAA Tournament while winning 2 national titles.
UConn has been to 1 tournament in that span, been ranked in the top-70 of kenpom once, and won 1 NCAA game. Is that because of Kevin Ollie? Maybe, but Dan Hurley's first year saw UConn ranked lower than all but one of Ollie's teams and UConn was never a traditional powerhouse before Jim Calhoun.
If they drop out of FBS football and agree to never return, then the conversation should start with very strict penalties if they leave. Part of the strength of this league and the strength it presents to the rest of Division 1 is that our teams are going NOWHERE. NO ONE is leaving. Period. And everyone knows that. No one calls on Big East teams when they want to expand. Add UConn with D1 FBS football and that could change. They are not like us.
I, like you Brew am skeptical if UCONN will ever be again at the level Calhoun had them at. That's my concern with it...not that they will leave or anything(and if they do, so what, they just go right back to 10 where they were). I read an article yesterday that Coaches feel this is going to raise their recruiting immensely, because it's the Big East. Except...it's really not. At least not the old Big East. Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
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I, like you Brew am skeptical if UCONN will ever be again at the level Calhoun had them at. That's my concern with it...not that they will leave or anything(and if they do, so what, they just go right back to 10 where they were). I read an article yesterday that Coaches feel this is going to raise their recruiting immensely, because it's the Big East. Except...it's really not. At least not the old Big East. Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
So you are now saying the opposite of what you said weeks ago that Milwaukee was a good place to recruit to....that kids should be dying to go to MU. Make up your mind.
Hawaii’s program is killer, because all the kids cannot wait to play there all the time. Same for Univ of San Diego, LMU and the historical juggernaut that is Arizona State and USC. Right?
Come on man. Look, MU is a tough place to recruit to, we agree....but be consistent here.
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I, like you Brew am skeptical if UCONN will ever be again at the level Calhoun had them at. That's my concern with it...not that they will leave or anything(and if they do, so what, they just go right back to 10 where they were). I read an article yesterday that Coaches feel this is going to raise their recruiting immensely, because it's the Big East. Except...it's really not. At least not the old Big East. Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
Obviously those mid-winter trips to Orlando, Tampa, New Orleans, Dallas, and Houston were a huge recruiting advantage for UConn, right? Why would they want to give up those annual trips? It will kill recruiting.
Or maybe playing in front of packed arenas in Milwaukee, Omaha and Indianapolis as opposed to half empty facilities in the AAC will be an attraction for kids.
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Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
I don't know ... maybe multiple trips to NY (including several days for the BET), trips to Washington and Nova, trips to the Gavitt Games and other interconference events, etc?
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I don't know ... maybe multiple trips to NY (including several days for the BET), trips to Washington and Nova, trips to the Gavitt Games and other interconference events, etc?
You mean where a kid from the northeast can go to UConn and his/her family doesn't need a passport to see him or her play.
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If you don’t see how this can only help, not hurt UConn basketball recruiting, I don’t know what to tell you.
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I, like you Brew am skeptical if UCONN will ever be again at the level Calhoun had them at. That's my concern with it...not that they will leave or anything(and if they do, so what, they just go right back to 10 where they were). I read an article yesterday that Coaches feel this is going to raise their recruiting immensely, because it's the Big East. Except...it's really not. At least not the old Big East. Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
The basic value to U Conn from a recruiting perspective is they immediately step in to several rivalry games in the region within easy driving or train distance. Parents, who influence these decisions ,love that aspect. This is basketball not football and rosters can be built quickly. All it takes is one or two quality local kids a year for a few years.
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I read an article yesterday that Coaches feel this is going to raise their recruiting immensely, because it's the Big East. Except...it's really not. At least not the old Big East. Sure, the competition as a whole is better than the AAC, but let's be honest, will trips to Omaha, Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis in the middle of winter, really get kids excited??
It should help UConn's recruiting, just because it's a more high profile league & every game should be televised. But does it help the league as a whole? I'm not as convinced.
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It should help UConn's recruiting, just because it's a more high profile league & every game should be televised. But does it help the league as a whole? I'm not as convinced.
I agree with you...This is a GREAT move for UCONN, but is it Great for the BE as a whole??
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So you are now saying the opposite of what you said weeks ago that Milwaukee was a good place to recruit to....that kids should be dying to go to MU. Make up your mind.
Hawaii’s program is killer, because all the kids cannot wait to play there all the time. Same for Univ of San Diego, LMU and the historical juggernaut that is Arizona State and USC. Right?
Come on man. Look, MU is a tough place to recruit to, we agree....but be consistent here.
Where did I say Milwaukee was a good place to recruit to?? You are the master at putting things in people's mouth. I also never said kids should be dying to go to MU. I get tired of you twisting things that I(and others) say to fit your own agenda. It's pathetic, even for you.
What I said was(although it doesn't seem to matter to you what i said exactly), that I really thought to this point Wojo's recruiting would be better. I never said a word about it being easy(nor did I say it was hard) to recruit to Milwaukee or anything like that, so please don't do that ever again.
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I agree with you...This is a GREAT move for UCONN, but is it Great for the BE as a whole??
Are you saying that Uconn needs to recruit for everyone else now, too? I don't get the premise here. Or is it that you're worried this will help Uconn steal recruits from existing BE teams, thus hurting everyone else?
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Are you saying that Uconn needs to recruit for everyone else now, too? I don't get the premise here. Or is it that you're worried this will help Uconn steal recruits from existing BE teams, thus hurting everyone else?
Look, I'm not totally opposed to it...but as I have said, I look at these things from a ON THE FLOOR product only. At this moment, UCONN's on the floor product is nothing to write home about, and I wonder if they ever will be again. Maybe/hopefully they will be, but the people that think just because UCONN is back in the Big East means they will go back closer to there glory days..that remains to be seen.
If this was going to be the end result anyway, then what would the harm have been of the BE waiting another couple of years to see if Uconn could turn their program around again. With the idea being that if they could do it in the AAC, they certainly could do it in the Big East. Just as the other side would be true...if they have shown they can't even do it in the AAC(and the last few years they have been terrible), then there's no guarantee they will regain what they had under Calhoun. Will they be better than they have been?? Most likely, but if that's just a middling program from now on, was it worth that from the on the floor product??
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Where did I say Milwaukee was a good place to recruit to?? You are the master at putting things in people's mouth. I also never said kids should be dying to go to MU. I get tired of you twisting things that I(and others) say to fit your own agenda. It's pathetic, even for you.
What I said was(although it doesn't seem to matter to you what i said exactly), that I really thought to this point Wojo's recruiting would be better. I never said a word about it being easy(nor did I say it was hard) to recruit to Milwaukee or anything like that, so please don't do that ever again.
Lol
The guy who said no adjustments made, the guy that wanted the internet shut down because Mike Deane’s first four years was a slightly better record than Wojo’s without acknowledging at all what they walked into, etc, etc.
Ok Guru, whatever you say.....I’m just imagining your recruiting comments about Wojo as well as his mythical replacement that is going to deliver a “Natty” as you like to state. Lol
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Lol
The guy who said no adjustments made, the guy that wanted the internet shut down because Mike Deane’s first four years was a slightly better record than Wojo’s without acknowledging at all what they walked into, etc, etc.
Ok Guru, whatever you say.....I’m just imagining your recruiting comments about Wojo as well as his mythical replacement that is going to deliver a “Natty” as you like to state. Lol
Now I said I wanted the internet shut down?? Really?? Really Chicos. You do this BS with EVERYONE you argue with here. You make things up that they say, to try to make yourself feel better. You always like to say "facts matter". Fact is, Deane's record over 5 years was better then Wojo's has been. Indisputable fact. But of course, because you get your ass whipped in most arguments here, you always want to add a "but...but...but" to things. You will use whatever you need to fit your argument, EVERYONE knows it. Why do you think you get called out so much??
Someone could give you 100% proof that the earth is round, and you would say something like "but...what was the shape of it, before anyone knew it was round, that matters". Whatever.
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Look, I'm not totally opposed to it...but as I have said, I look at these things from a ON THE FLOOR product only. At this moment, UCONN's on the floor product is nothing to write home about, and I wonder if they ever will be again. Maybe/hopefully they will be, but the people that think just because UCONN is back in the Big East means they will go back closer to there glory days..that remains to be seen.
If this was going to be the end result anyway, then what would the harm have been of the BE waiting another couple of years to see if Uconn could turn their program around again. With the idea being that if they could do it in the AAC, they certainly could do it in the Big East. Just as the other side would be true...if they have shown they can't even do it in the AAC(and the last few years they have been terrible), then there's no guarantee they will regain what they had under Calhoun. Will they be better than they have been?? Most likely, but if that's just a middling program from now on, was it worth that from the on the floor product??
Hurley has been the coach since the Spring of last year. His first actual recruiting class is ranked in the top 25, and they are likely to wind up in that range again in 2020.
For comparison, the 2017 recruiting class was rated #84 by 247, and 2018 was rated #117. Those were big time outliers in Uconn men's hoops recruiting and coincided with the downturn you are generalizing onto the entirety of the program.
Ollie was perhaps worse as an in-game coach than he was as a recruiter. And he had an awful record developing supremely talented players (which likely led to being unable to recruit said talent in the end of his tenure). Poof, they hire Hurley and suddenly the talent starts flowing in again.
I am even perplexed on how to place blame on the Ollie situation because what was the school even supposed to do? He won a national championship in his second season and had to sign an extension at that point. I don't know how you can read into that and use it as proof that the program itself is crippled.
Do you really think that, if we had won a championship in year 2 of Wojo, that we wouldn't have stuck it out with him for at least a few more years even if he struggled badly?
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Now I said I wanted the internet shut down?? Really?? Really Chicos. You do this BS with EVERYONE you argue with here. You make things up that they say, to try to make yourself feel better. You always like to say "facts matter". Fact is, Deane's record over 5 years was better then Wojo's has been. Indisputable fact. But of course, because you get your ass whipped in most arguments here, you always want to add a "but...but...but" to things. You will use whatever you need to fit your argument, EVERYONE knows it. Why do you think you get called out so much??
Someone could give you 100% proof that the earth is round, and you would say something like "but...what was the shape of it, before anyone knew it was round, that matters". Whatever.
but, but, but.....................the earth is an oblate spheroid, not quite round
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There have been several mentions in the Hartford Courant that U Conn will be paying an entrance fee,not participating in NCAA units for many years and also an exit to the AAC.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-basketball-football-aac-espn-fox-20190623-20190623-jdcbgzno6vghvn6bati5skne7a-story.html
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There have been several mentions in the Hartford Courant that U Conn will be paying an entrance fee,not participating in NCAA units for many years and also an exit to the AAC.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-basketball-football-aac-espn-fox-20190623-20190623-jdcbgzno6vghvn6bati5skne7a-story.html
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Decent, but ESPN+ isn’t going to feel much of this at all.... mouse nuts impact.
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Obviously no idea what this guy does or doesn't know...just passing it along, from the UCONN board...
kansashusky said:
So I am located in the Midwest, and not linked up very strong in New England. But I was at an event yesterday and got to talk to some Big East basketball coaches and they believe Gonzaga will be next and there will be 6 east teams and 6 west teams.
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Hurley has been the coach since the Spring of last year. His first actual recruiting class is ranked in the top 25, and they are likely to wind up in that range again in 2020.
For comparison, the 2017 recruiting class was rated #84 by 247, and 2018 was rated #117. Those were big time outliers in Uconn men's hoops recruiting and coincided with the downturn you are generalizing onto the entirety of the program.
Ollie was perhaps worse as an in-game coach than he was as a recruiter. And he had an awful record developing supremely talented players (which likely led to being unable to recruit said talent in the end of his tenure). Poof, they hire Hurley and suddenly the talent starts flowing in again.
Yessir, I'd be very surprised if UConn isn't very good again quite soon.
I'm pretty sure that at least some of those doubting UConn's ability to get better under Hurley were among those who stated they wish we had hired him.
Eight pages into this thread, I haven't seen a single thing about this that is bad for the Big East. And the only thing that might be even 1 iota bad for Marquette is if it now prevents a renewal of the ND rivalry -- something that nobody has proof would have actually happened anyway.
I am very glad an original Big East member -- a program that has won as many national titles the last 2 decades as Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State and Louisville combined -- is returning to our iconic basketball conference.
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Obviously no idea what this guy does or doesn't know...just passing it along, from the UCONN board...
kansashusky said:
So I am located in the Midwest, and not linked up very strong in New England. But I was at an event yesterday and got to talk to some Big East basketball coaches and they believe Gonzaga will be next and there will be 6 east teams and 6 west teams.
Hmm...I just don't see it. Even if you divvy it to two different divisions, it would guarantee unbalanced schedules unless they do either 16 or 22 game schedules, both of which sound like non-starters. Maybe they don't care about that, but it seems to be a feather in the cap.
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Yessir, I'd be very surprised if UConn isn't very good again quite soon.
I'm pretty sure that at least some of those doubting UConn's ability to get better under Hurley were among those who stated they wish we had hired him.
Eight pages into this thread, I haven't seen a single thing about this that is bad for the Big East. And the only thing that might be even 1 iota bad for Marquette is if it now prevents a renewal of the ND rivalry -- something that nobody has proof would have actually happened anyway.
I am very glad an original Big East member -- a program that has won as many national titles the last 2 decades as Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State and Louisville combined -- is returning to our iconic basketball conference.
This is the only post required on the subject. How is this even close to a controversy?? All upside, no downside, a transaction you enter into 100 times out of 100 without a moment's hesitation.
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Hmm...I just don't see it. Even if you divvy it to two different divisions, it would guarantee unbalanced schedules unless they do either 16 or 22 game schedules, both of which sound like non-starters. Maybe they don't care about that, but it seems to be a feather in the cap.
I'm also very skeptical of this.
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Hmm...I just don't see it. Even if you divvy it to two different divisions, it would guarantee unbalanced schedules unless they do either 16 or 22 game schedules, both of which sound like non-starters. Maybe they don't care about that, but it seems to be a feather in the cap.
Depaul, MU, Creighton Butler and X would really be getting the short end of the stick traveling out to Gonzaga. That's a heck of a trip vs what everyone else would be doing in the east.
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I think the double round robin is a priority for BE leadership. I don't see a scenario in the near future where they add a 12th team.
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Depaul, MU, Creighton Butler and X would really be getting the short end of the stick traveling out to Gonzaga. That's a heck of a trip vs what everyone else would be doing in the east.
People only think about men’s basketball too. Like Gonzaga is going to send their baseball team to St John’s or Seton Hall every year while Gonzaga sends their volleyball team to Providence and UConn annually. It’s not happening. Other than basketball, GU doesn’t win titles in the WCC...and they didn’t win any titles this past season in anything.
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Multiple articles have said that a big driver for UConn leaving the AAC was how the AAC leadership disregarded UConn's connection to the SNY network.
I'm not familiar with how the UConn/SNY relationship works, but does moving to the Big East somehow keep UConn happy with regards to SNY?
UConn had a deal with SNY for like $2mil a year to televise all the women's games, and any men's games or home football games that weren't being televised elsewhere. Plus the Coaches all had weekly shows.
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Some local info and opinion.
Big East move may be right call
But questions remain as UConn prepares to jump leagues
JEFF JACOBS
https://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODN/NewHavenRegister/Default.aspx
Why is UConn headed to the Big East and at what cost? Here’s what we know and don’t know
By DAN BRECHLIN | HARTFORD COURANT |
JUN 24, 2019 | 6:00 AM
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-clb-uconn-big-east-tv-contracts-20190623-20190624-llej757tybahrn7rs7under64i-story.html
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If UConn (re)joins the Big East as rumored, I'll admit I didn't see it coming. More so from UConn's standpoint than anything else.
The move would essentially mean the abandonment of a 20+ year strategy, one in which the university and the state of Connecticut have invested hundreds of millions of dollars. Here's how UConn originally justified upgrading the football program:
"Division I-A football will contribute to UConn's standing as a nationally recognized university and help move us into the top ranks of public institutions of higher education. The public tends to judge institutions by their peers; virtually every major public university with a strong academic reputation can also lay claim to a significant athletic program. Major athletic programs at schools like Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia have been helpful to these institutions as they have sought to recruit outstanding students and faculty and they will be helpful to similar efforts here."
http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm (http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm)
UConn compared itself to Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia. This was more than 15 years before the breakup of the Big East. And it reinforces the main difference between UConn and our current membership. Marquette, Villanova and Xavier are not "major public universities." For the administration, football was more than a revenue source or just another athletic program. It was tied directly to their view of UConn's standing in the academic world.
You can argue this was a flawed hypothesis from the beginning, or an ill-advised and very expensive bet. But the move was as much about perception as it was about reality. Which may explain why UConn took so long to acknowledge what anyone outside Storrs already knew: UConn would not be invited to join the ranks of "major public universities." The bet was a bust. And throwing so much time, money and effort into football was taking down the entire athletic program.
Moving to the Big East will not help UConn take football to the next level. It's an admission of failure. There is no better place for the program outside the AAC (which will actually be stronger without UConn). Competing in the MAC would mean less exposure and relevance; competing as an independent even more so. Either way, the program -- and the grand plan -- is effectively done for.
But as we've seen with Marquette and the Big East schools, football is not the only path to success as a university. Hopefully UConn has learned its lesson and is ready to move on.
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Yep, sunk cost fallacy is a b*tch
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Some local info and opinion.
Big East move may be right call
But questions remain as UConn prepares to jump leagues
JEFF JACOBS
https://www.middletownpress.com/sports/article/Jeff-Jacobs-Move-to-Big-East-could-be-right-14030991.php
Why is UConn headed to the Big East and at what cost? Here’s what we know and don’t know
By DAN BRECHLIN | HARTFORD COURANT |
JUN 24, 2019 | 6:00 AM
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-clb-uconn-big-east-tv-contracts-20190623-20190624-llej757tybahrn7rs7under64i-story.html
I fixed the first link. It was going through some other software portal to nowhere for me.
https://www.middletownpress.com/sports/article/Jeff-Jacobs-Move-to-Big-East-could-be-right-14030991.php
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UConn will/should play football as an independent. They can go on the road 7-8 weeks a year, get paid a ton by Power conferences teams for "buy" games. They can do home-and-homes with some other schools willing to visit Connecticut in the fall. Perhaps they can work out a TV deal for their home games, but it becomes less important if you're getting 7 figures to lose to an SEC school. In fact, the Big Ten and SEC are always looking for mid-season buy games.
Other notable Division 1 independents include UMass, Army, BYU and New Mexico State. If you scheduled those 4, similar to MU's old fellow independents (DePaul, ND, Dayton), 5-6 get bought games, and a few others, you got yourself a program with a sustainable revenue flow.
UMass & Army could become their rivals.
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Some local info and opinion.
Big East move may be right call
But questions remain as UConn prepares to jump leagues
JEFF JACOBS
https://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODN/NewHavenRegister/Default.aspx
Why is UConn headed to the Big East and at what cost? Here’s what we know and don’t know
By DAN BRECHLIN | HARTFORD COURANT |
JUN 24, 2019 | 6:00 AM
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-clb-uconn-big-east-tv-contracts-20190623-20190624-llej757tybahrn7rs7under64i-story.html
Thanks for this.
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Jon Rothstein
@JonRothstein 26m
Sources: The Big East will hold an official vote today on whether or not to add UConn as an 11th member of the conference.
I will be curious to find out if it passes unanimously, and if not, who opposed it.
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Jon Rothstein
@JonRothstein 26m
Sources: The Big East will hold an official vote today on whether or not to add UConn as an 11th member of the conference.
I will be curious to find out if it passes unanimously, and if not, who opposed it.
https://twitter.com/mattnorlander/status/1143192997791711237?s=21
@MattNorlander
Matt Norlander Retweeted Jon Rothstein
I was told Big East presidents already held their call this morning to formally vote and approve for UConn to rejoin the league.
The next step, as @CBSSports previously reported, will be for UConn’s Board of Trustees to vote this into action. That’s scheduled for Wednesday.
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It will be unanimous even if it really isn’t.
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UConn will/should play football as an independent. They can go on the road 7-8 weeks a year, get paid a ton by Power conferences teams for "buy" games. They can do home-and-homes with some other schools willing to visit Connecticut in the fall. Perhaps they can work out a TV deal for their home games, but it becomes less important if you're getting 7 figures to lose to an SEC school. In fact, the Big Ten and SEC are always looking for mid-season buy games.
Other notable Division 1 independents include UMass, Army, BYU and New Mexico State. If you scheduled those 4, similar to MU's old fellow independents (DePaul, ND, Dayton), 5-6 get bought games, and a few others, you got yourself a program with a sustainable revenue flow.
UMass & Army could become their rivals.
Totally agree.
Arguably, their schedule would be stronger in most years with this approach, raising their profile. It would also free the program to develop natural rivals as opposed to perpetual annoyances like East Carolina (?!) or Tulsa.
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wHaT iF tHeY lEaVe ThE bIg EaSt?!?
Honestly, who cares if they leave. We'll be right back where we are. The other 10 aren't going anywhere. Even if this arrangement only lasts 5-7 years, there is no denying it is good for the league. Welcome back UCONN, we'll take you as long as you want to be here.
UConn is going to be indy in football until (if?) they ever get their program together....going to schedule Syracuse, UMass, Rutgers, BC, Army, etc. to keep travel costs low. I suspect they will do this as long as their program remains pitiful. If they ever get it together maybe they will get an invite from a Power 5...but they are years, maybe even decades, from that happening (if it ever happens at all), so in the meantime, they are a net positive to everyone in the Big East.
I am pumped for a 20 game round robin.
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Maybe it has already been mentioned here, but didn't the deal with FOX increase in value if the Big East added a team? Does anyone remember what it increased to?
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Maybe it has already been mentioned here, but didn't the deal with FOX increase in value if the Big East added a team? Does anyone remember what it increased to?
The original deal from 2013 was $500M for 12 years. If we added 2 teams (Dayton and SLU were rumored at the time) it would increase to $600M.
So the question becomes if they just increase the yearly amount and prorate the difference (halfway through the deal, so change the $250M owed to $275M) or if they will renegotiate terms on the basis that a state school like UConn brings more attention and the shift to a 20-game schedule provides more inventory.
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Maybe it has already been mentioned here, but didn't the deal with FOX increase in value if the Big East added a team? Does anyone remember what it increased to?
My memory was it was a pro rata increase, so no dilution .
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Maybe this is another reason UConn is $40M in debt in athletics. New lockers......cannot wait to hear how often and costly these are to be replaced after a year or two of heavy use.
https://twitter.com/UConnFootball/status/1143218030014394371
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Maybe this is another reason UConn is $40M in debt in athletics. New lockers......cannot wait to hear how often and costly these are to be replaced after a year or two of heavy use.
https://twitter.com/UConnFootball/status/1143218030014394371
SMDH at them walking around with their phones like a bunch of robots
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Maybe this is another reason UConn is $40M in debt in athletics. New lockers......cannot wait to hear how often and costly these are to be replaced after a year or two of heavy use.
https://twitter.com/UConnFootball/status/1143218030014394371
almost guaranteed this was paid through donations exclusively. One guy alone gave $1 million for it.
My buddy was in a Power 5 football locker room that was also entirely donor-funded and noticed every locker was named after a donor ($50K to do that). He was amused to see his daughter's father in law's name on one and he said to me "damn, should have made them kick in more for the wedding."
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Bob from Bob's Discount Furniture probably paid for them. Seriously.
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almost guaranteed this was paid through donations exclusively. One guy alone gave $1 million for it.
My buddy was in a Power 5 football locker room that was also entirely donor-funded and noticed every locker was named after a donor ($50K to do that). He was amused to see his daughter's father in law's name on one and he said to me "damn, should have made them kick in more for the wedding."
Maybe they should have asked for those donations to cover the nearly $1200 a year each student is paying to support the athletics program.
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Bob from Bob's Discount Furniture probably paid for them. Seriously.
Well, he’s certainly got some money from me
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Well, he’s certainly got some money from me
He's a UConn grad and donor. Company is based out of Connecticut.
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He's a UConn grad and donor. Company is based out of Connecticut.
I remember the Bob’s Stores t-shirts we wore Freshman year for intramurals.
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I remember the Bob’s Stores t-shirts we wore Freshman year for intramurals.
Bob the Barber?
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Big East Entrance Fee $2.5 million. Will help pay for the new stationary and legal bills.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-ned-lamont-uconn-big-east-vote-20190624-20190624-xsxgqbmucfcojbvn3k5bmttxtq-story.html
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Big East Entrance Fee $2.5 million. Will help pay for the new stationary and legal bills.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-ned-lamont-uconn-big-east-vote-20190624-20190624-xsxgqbmucfcojbvn3k5bmttxtq-story.html
Ask Bob.
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I can see why Calhoun and Geno never got along. Geno very arrogant.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27047523/big-east-votes-invite-uconn-rejoin
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I remember the Bob’s Stores t-shirts we wore Freshman year for intramurals.
Chico's believe it or not, that was actually a different Bob's Store!
They sold t-shirts for a $1 with their logo on it, so I would buy a bunch when I was home on break and everyone wore for our intramural teams.
Bob's Store is actually still in existence and is now owned by the TJ Maxx Company.
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Chico's believe it or not, that was actually a different Bob's Store!
They sold t-shirts for a $1 with their logo on it, so I would buy a bunch when I was home on break and everyone wore for our intramural teams.
Bob's Store is actually still in existence and is now owned by the TJ Maxx Company.
I had no idea, thanks for the correction. I just remember having the shirt and like everyone on the floor seemed to, or maybe it was one of the intramural teams we played on. Memory getting fuzzier by the year.
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I had no idea, thanks for the correction. I just remember having the shirt and like everyone on the floor seemed to, or maybe it was one of the intramural teams we played on. Memory getting fuzzier by the year.
They are like the urban wear brand of TJMaxx and it's only New England.
Bobs Discount Furniture has the annoying TV commercials with Bob saying " I doubt it."
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How will this affect the Big East tournament with 11 teams? Right now the the bottom 4 play with the winners advancing to the quarter finals.
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How will this affect the Big East tournament with 11 teams? Right now the the bottom 4 play with the winners advancing to the quarter finals.
Top 5 teams get buys. Bottom 6 play each other. The three winners of those games play the top 3 seeds. 4 and 5 play each other.
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I can see why Calhoun and Geno never got along. Geno very arrogant.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27047523/big-east-votes-invite-uconn-rejoin
FWIW, Calhoun is just as bad.
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Top 5 teams get buys. Bottom 6 play each other. The three winners of those games play the top 3 seeds. 4 and 5 play each other.
Thanks!
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FWIW, Calhoun is just as bad.
Funny I just assumed it was a reference to both of them.
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This just in:
Many extremely successful, highly paid coaches are arrogant.
Who'da thunk it?
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Top 5 teams get buys. Bottom 6 play each other. The three winners of those games play the top 3 seeds. 4 and 5 play each other.
my guess it that it will be identical to the old 11 team Big Ten Tournament:
https://www.illinoisloyalty.com/a/2010/0308_2010_big_ten_tournament_bracket.php
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https://twitter.com/ManthonyCourant/status/1143930796006187008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1143930796006187008&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%231143930796006187008
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https://twitter.com/BIGEAST/status/1143934585241255939
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https://twitter.com/BIGEAST/status/1143934585241255939
Love the 3.5 entrance fee. That should help pay for Val’s office furniture .
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Just what we need, another blue color scheme. Why not add SLU and Memphis while were at it. This is why we need Dayton.
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Just read through the AAC general forums regarding this topic and it is laugh out loud funny. It would be something akin to Big East fans comparing the conference to the ACC. There simply is no question which conference is better. But don't tell AAC fans (including ECU and TULANE LMAO), surely their conference is much better than the Big East, and UCONN will regret this decision.
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Just what we need, another blue color scheme. Why not add SLU and Memphis while were at it. This is why we need Dayton.
Dude
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Just what we need, another blue color scheme. Why not add SLU and Memphis while were at it. This is why we need Dayton.
And the THIRD dog mascot. The conference needs more mascot diversity. Flyers would have been a much better choice.
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Just what we need, another blue color scheme. Why not add SLU and Memphis while were at it. This is why we need Dayton.
https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/bracketiq/2018-02-15/march-madness-why-you-should-always-pick-blue-and-orange
Seems like a good add to me
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I can see why Calhoun and Geno never got along. Geno very arrogant.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/27047523/big-east-votes-invite-uconn-rejoin
I dont follow women's basketball at all, but isn't the Big East pretty much a legit mid major in women's basketball? I could see why he wouldn't be that excited.
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It's was reported that Geno has made a strong push to leave the AAC for the Big East.
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I dont follow women's basketball at all, but isn't the Big East pretty much a legit mid major in women's basketball? I could see why he wouldn't be that excited.
Whatever it is, it is a huge improvement from the AAC.
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And the THIRD dog mascot. The conference needs more mascot diversity. Flyers would have been a much better choice.
At least not a bulldog.
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And the THIRD dog mascot. The conference needs more mascot diversity. Flyers would have been a much better choice.
at least it's not a bulldog. It could have been another bird though:
Birds:
MU - Golden Eagle
SJU - Thurnderbird (but not nickname)
Creighton - Blue Jay
Dogs;
Butler - Bulldog
Gtown - Bulldog (but not nickname)
UConn - Albino Husky
Travesties:
DePaul - Demon like thing
Things people see in their nightmares:
Providence - something from Eyes Wide Shut
Seton Hall - Pirate
Xavier - Musketeer (and Blue Blob. Maybe we should have kept Bleautaux around)
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Just what we need, another blue color scheme. Why not add SLU and Memphis while were at it. This is why we need Dayton.
I would not mind the Duke Blue Devils!
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Don't know if this has been posted
https://twitter.com/noescalators/status/1143955459570831361?s=21
UConn's exit fee to leave the Big East is $30 million for its first six years. Then $15 million until year 10. Then $10 million after that.
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UConn's exit fee to leave the Big East is $30 million for its first six years. Then $15 million until year 10. Then $10 million after that.
Imagine being in a conference that’s so bad that you pay $10MM to not be in it anymore, then agree to pay three times that to be able to leave the conference that you’re paying another $3.5MM to join a year before you can even compete in it.
Think Val had some leverage??
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Don't know if this has been posted
https://twitter.com/noescalators/status/1143955459570831361?s=21
UConn's exit fee to leave the Big East is $30 million for its first six years. Then $15 million until year 10. Then $10 million after that.
Unless the other info is wrong, I believe this is incorrect information that has been reported on Twitter.
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UConn - Albino Husky
I think you mean Siberian husky.
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Unless the other info is wrong, I believe this is incorrect information that has been reported on Twitter.
There is a lengthy epistle about how much damage they could do by leaving in the country and these are the penalty schedule fees for leaving our league in the future . They are also prohibited from soliciting Power 5 football conferences.
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There is a lengthy epistle about how much damage they could do by leaving in the country and these are the penalty schedule fees for leaving our league in the future . They are also prohibited from soliciting Power 5 football conferences.
Maybe I misunderstood the original message...thanks
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I dont follow women's basketball at all, but isn't the Big East pretty much a legit mid major in women's basketball? I could see why he wouldn't be that excited.
Yes. At its best it was us and Depaul and we lost our coach and like half the team so it's Depaul's conference next year till UConn joins.
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Unless the other info is wrong, I believe this is incorrect information that has been reported on Twitter.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's correct. Here's the contract (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6172262-UConnBigEastAgreement). See Section 2(d).
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It'll be interesting to see how easily UConn extracts itself from the AAC. Apparently they must give the AAC 27 months notice. I'm guessing that the AAC will want more money to release UConn earlier than that, and I'm guessing that UConn will probably pay it. In the contract with the Big East, if UConn can't negotiate an early release from the AAC, they won't actually start with the Big East until July 1, 2022. (See Section 3(g) (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6172262-UConnBigEastAgreement).)
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It'll be interesting to see how easily UConn extracts itself from the AAC. Apparently they must give the AAC 27 months notice. I'm guessing that the AAC will want more money to release UConn earlier than that, and I'm guessing that UConn will probably pay it. In the contract with the Big East, if UConn can't negotiate an early release from the AAC, they won't actually start with the Big East until July 1, 2022. (See Section 3(g) (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6172262-UConnBigEastAgreement).)
They didn't pay Kevin Ollie, why would they pay the AAC?
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There is a lengthy epistle about how much damage they could do by leaving in the country and these are the penalty schedule fees for leaving our league in the future . They are also prohibited from soliciting Power 5 football conferences.
FYI, that prohibition is only up to the "Entrance Date".
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Just read through the AAC general forums regarding this topic and it is laugh out loud funny. It would be something akin to Big East fans comparing the conference to the ACC. There simply is no question which conference is better. But don't tell AAC fans (including ECU and TULANE LMAO), surely their conference is much better than the Big East, and UCONN will regret this decision.
Where is dayton flyer when they need him?? 😂😂
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The Big East has made it official: UCConn athletics will return to the conference. A few details of note:
• The year of entry is yet to be determined
• UConn's return comes during the 40th anniversary of the founding of the Big East in 1979
• There's a subtle repositioning from talking about "basketball focus." Big East Commisioner Val Ackerman said, "As a group of schools rooted in basketball pre-eminence, we can think of no better partner than UConn to join us in perpetuating the rivalries, traditions and successes that have made the Big East unlike any other conference in college basketball."
• Mentions of the Huskies men's and women's basketball programs in the Big East press release, as well as field hockey and women's lacrosse -- but no mention of football whatsoever
• The Big East press release closes on a curious note: "The Big East was represented in this matter by the law firm of Proskauer Rose. Allen & Company also provided advisory services to the conference."
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/27067848/big-east-officially-announces-uconn-return (https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/27067848/big-east-officially-announces-uconn-return)
http://www.bigeast.com/news/2019/6/27/general-big-east-announces-readmission-of-university-of-connecticut.aspx (http://www.bigeast.com/news/2019/6/27/general-big-east-announces-readmission-of-university-of-connecticut.aspx)
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• The Big East press release closes on a curious note: "The Big East was represented in this matter by the law firm of Proskauer Rose. Allen & Company also provided advisory services to the conference."
That is actually pretty standard in transactions (like M&A). The banks and law firms push very hard for this inclusion - always the issuers decision but they push very hard for it. Everyone loves publicity!
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And from UConn's site:
https://today.uconn.edu/2019/06/uconn-returns-big-east-conference/# (https://today.uconn.edu/2019/06/uconn-returns-big-east-conference/#)
Looks like the same exact release as the one on the Big East site. No mention of football.
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Off topic but can anyone quote bo ellis’s comment after the 1974 loss to nc state about not the right place ir time but we will be back...
TIA
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I think you mean Siberian husky.
maybe I'm sheltered but I've never seen an all white Siberian Husky. My wife wants one of the reddish ones as you don't see them as much.
Maybe the designer of the UConn mascot created a Samoyed in error?
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And from UConn's site:
https://today.uconn.edu/2019/06/uconn-returns-big-east-conference/# (https://today.uconn.edu/2019/06/uconn-returns-big-east-conference/#)
Looks like the same exact release as the one on the Big East site. No mention of football.
since football is not a member of the Big East Conference they wouldn't be able to or have any reason to mention it.
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The Big East has made it official: UCConn athletics will return to the conference. A few details of note:
• The year of entry is yet to be determined
• UConn's return comes during the 40th anniversary of the founding of the Big East in 1979
• There's a subtle repositioning from talking about "basketball focus." Big East Commisioner Val Ackerman said, "As a group of schools rooted in basketball pre-eminence, we can think of no better partner than UConn to join us in perpetuating the rivalries, traditions and successes that have made the Big East unlike any other conference in college basketball."
• Mentions of the Huskies men's and women's basketball programs in the Big East press release, as well as field hockey and women's lacrosse -- but no mention of football whatsoever
• The Big East press release closes on a curious note: "The Big East was represented in this matter by the law firm of Proskauer Rose. Allen & Company also provided advisory services to the conference."
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/27067848/big-east-officially-announces-uconn-return (https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/27067848/big-east-officially-announces-uconn-return)
http://www.bigeast.com/news/2019/6/27/general-big-east-announces-readmission-of-university-of-connecticut.aspx (http://www.bigeast.com/news/2019/6/27/general-big-east-announces-readmission-of-university-of-connecticut.aspx)
UNANIMOUS as it should be and predicted
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Actually, I'm pretty sure it's correct. Here's the contract (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6172262-UConnBigEastAgreement). See Section 2(d).
I acknowledged
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An article from the New Haven Register mentions a couple other details:
• UConn will not be eligible to receive financial awards (NCAA tournament units, etc.) accrued by other Big East schools prior to UConn's entrance
• The UConn football program is allowed to solicit an invitation to any conference except the Power Five (ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac-10, SEC)
• One fan (a 2015 alum) addressed the UConn board regarding the move, pleading that it reconsider its "short-sighted decision" to join the Big East and send the athletics program into "conference purgatory" -- adding that the move will "slit the throat" of the UConn football program
https://www.nhregister.com/uconn/article/It-s-official-UConn-is-back-in-the-Big-East-14051900.php#item-85307-tbla-5 (https://www.nhregister.com/uconn/article/It-s-official-UConn-is-back-in-the-Big-East-14051900.php#item-85307-tbla-5)
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since football is not a member of the Big East Conference they wouldn't be able to or have any reason to mention it.
Men's and women's hockey aren't part of the BE conference either.
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I acknowledged
Maybe I misunderstood the original message...thanks
It seemed you weren't positive -- no harm in that -- so I clarified for everyone.
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An article from the New Haven Register mentions a couple other details:
• UConn will not be eligible to receive financial awards (NCAA tournament units, etc.) accrued by other Big East schools prior to UConn's entrance
• The UConn football program is allowed to solicit an invitation to any conference except the Power Five (ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac-10, SEC)
• One fan (a 2015 alum) addressed the UConn board regarding the move, pleading that it reconsider its "short-sighted decision" to join the Big East and send the athletics program into "conference purgatory" -- adding that the move will "slit the throat" of the UConn football program
https://www.nhregister.com/uconn/article/It-s-official-UConn-is-back-in-the-Big-East-14051900.php#item-85307-tbla-5 (https://www.nhregister.com/uconn/article/It-s-official-UConn-is-back-in-the-Big-East-14051900.php#item-85307-tbla-5)
Good for Val and Co.
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• One fan (a 2015 alum) addressed the UConn board regarding the move, pleading that it reconsider its "short-sighted decision" to join the Big East and send the athletics program into "conference purgatory" -- adding that the move will "slit the throat" of the UConn football program
I think that throat was slit awhile ago.
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Where is dayton flyer when they need him?? 😂😂
At AAMCO getting his Cavalier transmission replaced.
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Can anyone help me on the bo ellis quote?
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Men's and women's hockey aren't part of the BE conference either.
and I did not see them mentioned. However, Field Hockey, which the Big East sponsors and UConn has remained a member, was.
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UConn sanction news (not much to say):
https://news.yahoo.com/uconn-ncaa-decision-mens-hoops-141905137.html
UConn recruiting improves immediately (of course it did):
https://sports.yahoo.com/hurley-says-recruiting-getting-bump-big-east-move-205935430--ncaab.html
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This is disgusting and I for one cannot believe we are associating with such a dirty program:
Among the most serious allegations:
• Former men's basketball student managers attended preseason pickup games played by student-athletes. According to the NCAA, the pickup games became countable athletically related activity when the managers attended the games, kept statistics and regularly printed, copied and distributed them to coaches.
The NCAA alleged that Ollie was aware that the games took place and didn't report them to the compliance staff or ask if they were permissible. He also failed to monitor the managers' actions to ensure the games followed NCAA rules.
• The program's former video coordinator reviewed plays with and answered questions for student-athletes on and off the basketball court. The NCAA committee determined that the instruction exceeded the responsibilities of the video coordinator's position, causing him to become a countable coach and the program to exceed its countable coaches limit.
• Trainer Derek Hamilton, who was Ollie's friend and became a booster of the university, provided free on- and off-campus training sessions to three UConn players.
While at the off-campus training sessions, the trainer also provided free lodging, meals, transportation and access to a private gym. The committee noted that the impermissible benefits resulted in the student-athletes competing while ineligible.
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This is disgusting and I for one cannot believe we are associating with such a dirty program:
Some programs cheat to win games; UConn cheated in order to erase its men's basketball association with the AAC.
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This is disgusting and I for one cannot believe we are associating with such a dirty program:
These rule breakers deserve to be dissolved from the NCAA.
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This is disgusting and I for one cannot believe we are associating with such a dirty program:
Perhaps the first time the NCAA had a school begging them to find something, anything, and hit them with sanctions.
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Men's and women's hockey aren't part of the BE conference either.
That's because Div 1 hockey is weird. There's Big 10 hockey, but every other conference is hockey only. UConn and Providence already both play in Hockey East with a bunch of other New England schools. I think they're the only Big East schools that sponsor hockey.
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That's because Div 1 hockey is weird. There's Big 10 hockey, but every other conference is hockey only. UConn and Providence already both play in Hockey East with a bunch of other New England schools. I think they're the only Big East schools that sponsor hockey.
and, D1 hockey is one of the few sports where a school does not need to be D1 in other sports to play at the D1 level. Union College, a D3 school in all other sports, became the smallest school to win a D1 national title in 2014.
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Perhaps the first time the NCAA had a school begging them to find something, anything, and hit them with sanctions.
I think they should've pulled out the old chestnut that their logo empowers rape culture. That should have worked.
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That's because Div 1 hockey is weird. There's Big 10 hockey, but every other conference is hockey only. UConn and Providence already both play in Hockey East with a bunch of other New England schools. I think they're the only Big East schools that sponsor hockey.
Marquette somewhat does. They play acha d2 now.
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Marquette somewhat does. They play acha d2 now.
If Marquette went varsity with Men’s and Women’s Hockey I think it would be a successful program in a short period of time.
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If Marquette went varsity with Men’s and Women’s Hockey I think it would be a successful program in a short period of time.
I disagree. There's very little high school hockey locally, so they'd have to draw recruits from a distance. I just don't think there's an appetite for hockey in this area. Plus, huge rosters means lots of scholarships. Very unlikely we'll see Div. 1 hockey at MU.
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I think MU could sponsor hockey and be reasonably successful, but I agree it is unlikely to happen.
If it was going to happen, it probably would have happened instead of adding mens and womens LAX a few years back
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Marquette somewhat does. They play acha d2 now.
Which isn’t a varsity sport.
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I disagree. There's very little high school hockey locally, so they'd have to draw recruits from a distance. I just don't think there's an appetite for hockey in this area. Plus, huge rosters means lots of scholarships. Very unlikely we'll see Div. 1 hockey at MU.
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I once saw a map that showed WI as one of the biggest hockey states for juniors. Not saying it's MN or MI but that there's definitely a surprising base.
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I disagree. There's very little high school hockey locally, so they'd have to draw recruits from a distance. I just don't think there's an appetite for hockey in this area. Plus, huge rosters means lots of scholarships. Very unlikely we'll see Div. 1 hockey at MU.
College Hockey is done by recruiting from Junior ranks. There is an excess of D1 quality players for a limited group of D1 schools. most kids enter as 21 year old freshman from juniors .MU would be an attractive school compared to the other D1 programs.
Obviously a hockey program would need to be funded so not likely without a big donor to get it started.
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College Hockey is done by recruiting from Junior ranks. There is an excess of D1 quality players for a limited group of D1 schools. most kids enter as 21 year old freshman from juniors .MU would be an attractive school compared to the other D1 programs.
Obviously a hockey program would need to be funded so not likely without a big donor to get it started.
Would also need to fund a women’s program if some sort too.
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Would also need to fund a women’s program if some sort too.
Would have to be both for sure .
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If Marquette adds another sport it will be Men’s Volleyball and Women’s Golf for the scholarships.
Neither of which I think will happen anytime in the next decade.
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Does the big east have any schools with varsity men's volleyball?
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Does the big east have any schools with varsity men's volleyball?
Nah, they would likely join the MIVA with the likes of Loyola, Ohio St, and Lewis.
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As much as I would love to see men's volleyball become a varsity sport at Marquette, I can't see it happening unless other big east schools did it too.
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I go to a few UW men’s hockey games. They’ve won multiple national championships, have multiple NHL draft picks (including the Rangers first round in 2018) and barely full half of their seats at the Kohl Center versus their biggest rival.
The only thing I could see appealing to hockey, is most of their games are Friday/ Saturday evenings, giving students something to do in the winter.
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I go to a few UW men’s hockey games. They’ve won multiple national championships, have multiple NHL draft picks (including the Rangers first round in 2018) and barely full half of their seats at the Kohl Center versus their biggest rival.
The only thing I could see appealing to hockey, is most of their games are Friday/ Saturday evenings, giving students something to do in the winter.
They used to regularly sell out Dane County Coliseum back in the day.
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The emergence of the men's basketball team, at the same time the hockey team has slid away from relevance, has really killed the casual fan's interest in Badger hockey.
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The emergence of the men's basketball team, at the same time the hockey team has slid away from relevance, has really killed the casual fan's interest in Badger hockey.
Here is a solid research report from last year that supports this notion. Winning always matters .
https://madison.com/wsj/sports/college/hockey/spectator-count-for-wisconsin-badgers-men-s-hockey-home-games/article_8196e185-74c5-58ed-bf83-7ac8a1c11a57.html
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I'd love to see Marquette have a hockey team but it's pretty doubtful. It's a big investment for a university that prides itself on prioritizing basketball. Equipment, facilities, travel, sports medicine, etc. And you'd need the women's side too. Probably a better chance of baseball / softball.
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I'd love to see Marquette have a hockey team but it's pretty doubtful. It's a big investment for a university that prides itself on prioritizing basketball. Equipment, facilities, travel, sports medicine, etc. And you'd need the women's side too. Probably a better chance of baseball / softball.
Could they get away with women's field hockey rather than ice hockey? Could be a heck of a lot cheaper than ice hockey
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I just got an email notification from the XL Center notifying me of this.
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I just got an email notification from the XL Center notifying me of this.
Kind of funny in light of the fact that absent some agreement with the AAC (which I'm sure will come), they can't actually join the BigEast until the 2022 season.
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Kind of funny in light of the fact that absent some agreement with the AAC (which I'm sure will come), they can't actually join the BigEast until the 2022 season.
True, but UConn is obviously trying to build a season ticket base while the iron is hot.
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True, but UConn is obviously trying to build a season ticket base while the iron is hot.
Of course. As they should.
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Could they get away with women's field hockey rather than ice hockey? Could be a heck of a lot cheaper than ice hockey
Women's field hockey typically rosters about 20 players, same as ice hockey. But the field hockey scholarship limit is 12 while ice is 18. So probably not.
But add field hockey and women's bowling (limit of 5), and maybe that's close enough?
That said, ice hockey is a massive investment, and it's unlikely that MU would ever consider potentially cannibalizing its only revenue positive sport to - in the best case scenario - break even on hockey.
Keep in mind that the primary reason MU added LAX a few years back was because of the Big East's sport sponsorship minimums. Adding sports at a private, urban D-I with <25% enrollment of the land grants is a very tall order without significant (and ongoing) financial backing. And Benny's already committed his dollars to the Thunderdome (which will not be ice-capable).
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Women's field hockey typically rosters about 20 players, same as ice hockey. But the field hockey scholarship limit is 12 while ice is 18. So probably not.
But add field hockey and women's bowling (limit of 5), and maybe that's close enough?
That said, ice hockey is a massive investment, and it's unlikely that MU would ever consider potentially cannibalizing its only revenue positive sport to - in the best case scenario - break even on hockey.
Keep in mind that the primary reason MU added LAX a few years back was because of the Big East's sport sponsorship minimums. Adding sports at a private, urban D-I with <25% enrollment of the land grants is a very tall order without significant (and ongoing) financial backing. And Benny's already committed his dollars to the Thunderdome (which will not be ice-capable).
How many does golf have? Could do women's golf and women's field hockey. Then have Men's Ice hockey.
I know it won't happen either way. MU would be too scared of it cutting into the basketball fandom and yet they'd need butts in the seats at Hockey games to make it viable.
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I'd love to see Marquette have a hockey team but it's pretty doubtful. It's a big investment for a university that prides itself on prioritizing basketball. Equipment, facilities, travel, sports medicine, etc. And you'd need the women's side too. Probably a better chance of baseball / softball.
I'd stay away from baseball at the d1 level in Wisconsin
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Women's field hockey typically rosters about 20 players, same as ice hockey. But the field hockey scholarship limit is 12 while ice is 18. So probably not.
But add field hockey and women's bowling (limit of 5), and maybe that's close enough?
That said, ice hockey is a massive investment, and it's unlikely that MU would ever consider potentially cannibalizing its only revenue positive sport to - in the best case scenario - break even on hockey.
Keep in mind that the primary reason MU added LAX a few years back was because of the Big East's sport sponsorship minimums. Adding sports at a private, urban D-I with <25% enrollment of the land grants is a very tall order without significant (and ongoing) financial backing. And Benny's already committed his dollars to the Thunderdome (which will not be ice-capable).
I've hockey wouldn't be a huge undertaking. They already have all the needed facilities. It would now be justv getting it off the ground.
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I've hockey wouldn't be a huge undertaking. They already have all the needed facilities. It would now be justv getting it off the ground.
Well, other than a suitable arena.
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Well, other than a suitable arena.
Panther arena suitable for AHL but not college?
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How many varsity sports does Marquette have that aren't big east sponsored sports? I don't see Marquette adding anything that doesn't strengthen their standing in the big east.
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Panther arena suitable for AHL but not college?
Really? MU is going to play in UWM Panther Arena?
11K would be too big anyway. It would be the 4th largest college hockey arena in the country. The Admirals only average just over 5400 a game. MU would be lucky to get 2K.
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How many varsity sports does Marquette have that aren't big east sponsored sports? I don't see Marquette adding anything that doesn't strengthen their standing in the big east.
What does that even mean? It’s not like they’re gonna get kicked out. MU can most certainly add a sport that is in an affiliate conference. It happens fairly regularly in D1 sports.
For instance, both Georgetown and Villanova have sports in two additional conferences besides the Big East.
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All of this is hypothetical so it doesn't really matter. Marquette isn't adding Hockey or Volleyball as far as I know.
To tie this back to the point of this thread - My point is that if the Big East brand is doing so well, as shown by the way they poached UConn, then it makes sense for Marquette to only add a sport that already exists in the Big East. That would help Marquette grow and become a stronger member of the Big East. Just my opinion, but adding another varsity sport so that it can play in a separate, lower tier conference doesn't do much to help Marquette.
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I don't think any sport is really going to help Marquette much. But the only sports that the BE sponsors that Marquette doesn't participate in are baseball and swimming and diving. I don't think either of those will be happening any time soon.
The only thing that would be beneficial about a sport like Men's Volleyball is they have the arena to practice and play, and it gives them further inroads to recruiting markets like Chicago. But since they would have to add a women's sport to balance that out, I just don't know what that would be.
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I agree. The only scenario that even makes a little sense is adding Men's Volleyball and Women's Field Hockey, but I don't see how that is attractive enough to the University to sink the money into developing those programs. Marquette already recruits Chicago pretty well (or at least they did when I was there), so getting a few more kids from Chicago doesn't seem like a priority. Besides, the Men's Club Volleyball team is mostly kids from Chicago anyway.
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I've hockey wouldn't be a huge undertaking. They already have all the needed facilities. It would now be justv getting it off the ground.
Important distinction: MU doesn't have the facilities, they have the facilities available. Ice time at a normal rink runs anywhere from $150/hr to upwards of $400/hour these days. God only knows what it would cost to rent Panther Arena since the FiFo ain't doing ice, but if the last rent MU was paying at the BC was $29,000/game, my guess is Panther is going to run at least $20k.
So right off the top, practices 2 hours/day, 5 days/week + 15 games, we're looking at $350,000-400,000/year just for the minimum facility requirements.
After a novelty first year, I don't see hockey ever drawing more than the Admirals. Hell, if the Admirals were NCAA, their 5,400 would have been good for about 10th place among all D-I schools last year. Barring a Frozen Four appearance out of the gate, the best case MU could hope to average over the first ten years would be 2,500/gm (D-I median is ~3,000). At an average ticket price of $20 - because let's be real here, no one is going to pay a seat donation, and you're not going to charge $50/ticket (except maybe along the glass) - you'll turn a profit on game day, but you'll barely cover the cost of the ice time. And you're still on the hook for all the other costs that would otherwise be incurred with any other sport: scholarships, housing, transportation, road accommodations, etc. [perhaps even more, since hockey gear takes up a lot more space than a bag of volleyballs].
If the Admirals ever left town, it might be worth a feasibility study. Otherwise, it's going to take some sort of external influence (i.e. FS1 or BE wants more sports, a "Ralph" donation, etc.) to get varsity hockey at MU.
Right now, the following "Big East" schools sponsor varsity hockey:
UCONN
Denver
Actual Big East schools that sponsor varsity hockey:
Providence
Believe me, I would be first in line for hockey season tickets if it ever happened, but despite taking more than my share of pucks to the head over 20+ years in front of the twine, I still have enough functioning brain cells to realize hockey at MU is an impossible vision.
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Important distinction: MU doesn't have the facilities, they have the facilities available. Ice time at a normal rink runs anywhere from $150/hr to upwards of $400/hour these days. God only knows what it would cost to rent Panther Arena since the FiFo ain't doing ice, but if the last rent MU was paying at the BC was $29,000/game, my guess is Panther is going to run at least $20k.
So right off the top, practices 2 hours/day, 5 days/week + 15 games, we're looking at $350,000-400,000/year just for the minimum facility requirements.
After a novelty first year, I don't see hockey ever drawing more than the Admirals. Hell, if the Admirals were NCAA, their 5,400 would have been good for about 10th place among all D-I schools last year. Barring a Frozen Four appearance out of the gate, the best case MU could hope to average over the first ten years would be 2,500/gm (D-I median is ~3,000). At an average ticket price of $20 - because let's be real here, no one is going to pay a seat donation, and you're not going to charge $50/ticket (except maybe along the glass) - you'll turn a profit on game day, but you'll barely cover the cost of the ice time. And you're still on the hook for all the other costs that would otherwise be incurred with any other sport: scholarships, housing, transportation, road accommodations, etc. [perhaps even more, since hockey gear takes up a lot more space than a bag of volleyballs].
If the Admirals ever left town, it might be worth a feasibility study. Otherwise, it's going to take some sort of external influence (i.e. FS1 or BE wants more sports, a "Ralph" donation, etc.) to get varsity hockey at MU.
Right now, the following "Big East" schools sponsor varsity hockey:
UCONN
Denver
Actual Big East schools that sponsor varsity hockey:
Providence
Believe me, I would be first in line for hockey season tickets if it ever happened, but despite taking more than my share of pucks to the head over 20+ years in front of the twine, I still have enough functioning brain cells to realize hockey at MU is an impossible vision.
Great post. Thanks for sharing.
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After a novelty first year, I don't see hockey ever drawing more than the Admirals. Hell, if the Admirals were NCAA, their 5,400 would have been good for about 10th place among all D-I schools last year. Barring a Frozen Four appearance out of the gate, the best case MU could hope to average over the first ten years would be 2,500/gm (D-I median is ~3,000).
That's a great post, Benny. Thanks for a lot of good information -- somewhat of a rarity around these parts. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'd add -- and I think you'd likely agree -- that the "best case" scenario you described above is wildly optimistic.
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I'd add -- and I think you'd likely agree -- that the "best case" scenario you described above is wildly optimistic.
The italics and underlining of 'best case' was no accident. If I were drawing up a base case forecast, I don't think I'd be over 2,000 unless ticket prices were cheap as free.
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Important distinction: MU doesn't have the facilities, they have the facilities available. Ice time at a normal rink runs anywhere from $150/hr to upwards of $400/hour these days. God only knows what it would cost to rent Panther Arena since the FiFo ain't doing ice, but if the last rent MU was paying at the BC was $29,000/game, my guess is Panther is going to run at least $20k.
So right off the top, practices 2 hours/day, 5 days/week + 15 games, we're looking at $350,000-400,000/year just for the minimum facility requirements.
After a novelty first year, I don't see hockey ever drawing more than the Admirals. Hell, if the Admirals were NCAA, their 5,400 would have been good for about 10th place among all D-I schools last year. Barring a Frozen Four appearance out of the gate, the best case MU could hope to average over the first ten years would be 2,500/gm (D-I median is ~3,000). At an average ticket price of $20 - because let's be real here, no one is going to pay a seat donation, and you're not going to charge $50/ticket (except maybe along the glass) - you'll turn a profit on game day, but you'll barely cover the cost of the ice time. And you're still on the hook for all the other costs that would otherwise be incurred with any other sport: scholarships, housing, transportation, road accommodations, etc. [perhaps even more, since hockey gear takes up a lot more space than a bag of volleyballs].
If the Admirals ever left town, it might be worth a feasibility study. Otherwise, it's going to take some sort of external influence (i.e. FS1 or BE wants more sports, a "Ralph" donation, etc.) to get varsity hockey at MU.
Right now, the following "Big East" schools sponsor varsity hockey:
UCONN
Denver
Actual Big East schools that sponsor varsity hockey:
Providence
Believe me, I would be first in line for hockey season tickets if it ever happened, but despite taking more than my share of pucks to the head over 20+ years in front of the twine, I still have enough functioning brain cells to realize hockey at MU is an impossible vision.
Most arenas that college teams play in don't even hold 5,400. Yale plays in the 3,000 seat Yale Whale and sells out every game. UConn plays at the XL Center in Hartford and curtains off the upper half and averages 4,500 in Hockey East.
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If you took out the seats on the ends, did they build the floor plan of the Al large enough to fit a hockey rink?
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If you took out the seats on the ends, did they build the floor plan of the Al large enough to fit a hockey rink?
If I'm not mistaken, the practice court and other training facilities are beneath the main floor court at the Al. I'd imagine those would have to be removed and built elsewhere to install an ice surface.
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UConn formally withdraws from the AAC per Hartford Courant.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-aac-withdrawal-letter-20190710-20190711-o32vay7xmrhajavvbqvrrimmt4-story.html?outputType=amp
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If I'm not mistaken, the practice court and other training facilities are beneath the main floor court at the Al. I'd imagine those would have to be removed and built elsewhere to install an ice surface.
Exactly. It’s not the size, it’s the thickness that matters.
The engineers would have to chime in, but a gymnasium has to be built to a dead load of 100 psf. Ice rinks require 250 psf. So you’re not just relocating the basement, you’re probably filling it in (or installing a crap ton of bracing). Also, a gym floor can deflect (flex) a little bit, without breaking. Ice can’t. Which is why you don’t see ice rinks built above grade very often, unless it’s over a parking garage (e.g. Pan Am in Indy) or something else with a very strong structure... which, shot in the dark here, the Al is nowhere close.
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This sports center near my house has double decker ice rinks. Although it was designed and built this way not retrofitted.
http://www.sportscenterct.com/activities/ice-skating/
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UConn’s new players excited for Big East, but focused on task at hand — next season
https://www.nhregister.com/uconn/article/UConn-s-new-players-excited-for-Big-East-but-14064897.php
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Important distinction: MU doesn't have the facilities, they have the facilities available. Ice time at a normal rink runs anywhere from $150/hr to upwards of $400/hour these days. God only knows what it would cost to rent Panther Arena since the FiFo ain't doing ice, but if the last rent MU was paying at the BC was $29,000/game, my guess is Panther is going to run at least $20k.
So right off the top, practices 2 hours/day, 5 days/week + 15 games, we're looking at $350,000-400,000/year just for the minimum facility requirements.
After a novelty first year, I don't see hockey ever drawing more than the Admirals. Hell, if the Admirals were NCAA, their 5,400 would have been good for about 10th place among all D-I schools last year. Barring a Frozen Four appearance out of the gate, the best case MU could hope to average over the first ten years would be 2,500/gm (D-I median is ~3,000). At an average ticket price of $20 - because let's be real here, no one is going to pay a seat donation, and you're not going to charge $50/ticket (except maybe along the glass) - you'll turn a profit on game day, but you'll barely cover the cost of the ice time. And you're still on the hook for all the other costs that would otherwise be incurred with any other sport: scholarships, housing, transportation, road accommodations, etc. [perhaps even more, since hockey gear takes up a lot more space than a bag of volleyballs].
If the Admirals ever left town, it might be worth a feasibility study. Otherwise, it's going to take some sort of external influence (i.e. FS1 or BE wants more sports, a "Ralph" donation, etc.) to get varsity hockey at MU.
Right now, the following "Big East" schools sponsor varsity hockey:
UCONN
Denver
Actual Big East schools that sponsor varsity hockey:
Providence
Believe me, I would be first in line for hockey season tickets if it ever happened, but despite taking more than my share of pucks to the head over 20+ years in front of the twine, I still have enough functioning brain cells to realize hockey at MU is an impossible vision.
But, none of that is necessary if Marquette is indeed wanting to put a team together. We already have a d2 hockey team that practices 4-5 times a week, and they sure as hell dont have 400k to spend on practice facilities.
I'm not sure on the exact logistics, but would it not be possible to put a rink down at Valley Fields? For a hell of a lot less then what you have put above? Even if its just for gamedays, the petit center is wide open for practice.
**why does it have to turn a profit as well. Nothing but men's basketball at Marquette turns any profit, why are we judging hockey like it should.
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But, none of that is necessary if Marquette is indeed wanting to put a team together. We already have a d2 hockey team that practices 4-5 times a week, and they sure as hell dont have 400k to spend on practice facilities.
Marquette does not have a D2 hockey team. They have a ACHA Club hockey team. It isn't a varsity sport. I have no idea where they practice and how they pay for it, but D1 varsity hockey would require a completely different level of investment, including scholarships, coaching staff, facilities, etc.
You aren't going to be very attractive to D1 quality players if you are practicing at a municipal ice rink a couple miles from campus.
Not to mention the cost of adding a women’s sport. Club athletics do not have to be balanced in such a manner.
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Exactly. It’s not the size, it’s the thickness that matters.
The engineers would have to chime in, but a gymnasium has to be built to a dead load of 100 psf. Ice rinks require 250 psf. So you’re not just relocating the basement, you’re probably filling it in (or installing a crap ton of bracing). Also, a gym floor can deflect (flex) a little bit, without breaking. Ice can’t. Which is why you don’t see ice rinks built above grade very often, unless it’s over a parking garage (e.g. Pan Am in Indy) or something else with a very strong structure... which, shot in the dark here, the Al is nowhere close.
According to the MU Wiki, the arena portion of the building appears to extend to the basement, with the practice court in the basement adjacent to it (not underneath):
https://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/facilities/the_al_mcguire_center (https://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/facilities/the_al_mcguire_center)
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Marquette does not have a D2 hockey team. They have a ACHA Club hockey team. It isn't a varsity sport. I have no idea where they practice and how they pay for it, but D1 varsity hockey would require a completely different level of investment, including scholarships, coaching staff, facilities, etc.
You aren't going to be very attractive to D1 quality players if you are practicing at a municipal ice rink a couple miles from campus.
Not to mention the cost of adding a women’s sport. Club athletics do not have to be balanced in such a manner.
So I'm going to say this once more because it's the 2nd time you've stated it.
Where did I ever once say they were a varsity sport at Marquette? I've stated that they have been successful since they upgraded to the d2 level at acha.
Scholarships do not cost the university a thing, unless you think Marquette will go bankrupt because 18 people ride free.
Other arguments such as coaching, facilities and travel also can be argued against literally every sport except men's basketball.
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So I'm going to say this once more because it's the 2nd time you've stated it.
Where did I ever once say they were a varsity sport at Marquette? I've stated that they have been successful since they upgraded to the d2 level at acha.
Scholarships do not cost the university a thing, unless you think Marquette will go bankrupt because 18 people ride free.
Other arguments such as coaching, facilities and travel also can be argued against literally every sport except men's basketball.
OK I'm going to unpack this gem a few steps at a time.
First, it is completely irrelevant how good a club team is. The quality of players at the D1 varsity level will be much higher. The expectations for facilities and the demands for training and conditioning will be well beyond what a club team has.
Second, "scholarships do not cost the university a thing?" Are you insane? Those students take up places in classrooms. They receive academic support and advising. They take up rooms in residence halls. They eat. They get professional level strength training. All for free. Now the marginal cost of adding additional athletes is less than the list cost of a scholarship no doubt. But the idea that scholarships would be a no cost proposition for the University is absolutely laughable.
Finally, you are also wrong about facilities. Marquette has facilities for a sport like men's volleyball. They had facilities in place when they added lacrosse. If they piggyback it onto a new rec center, they could also have facilities for swimming and diving. (A sport that the BE offers.) They would have to lease facilities for hockey for both practice and competition. And that's expensive.
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OK I'm going to unpack this gem a few steps at a time.
First, it is completely irrelevant how good a club team is. The quality of players at the D1 varsity level will be much higher. The expectations for facilities and the demands for training and conditioning will be well beyond what a club team has.
Second, "scholarships do not cost the university a thing?" Are you insane? Those students take up places in classrooms. They receive academic support and advising. They take up rooms in residence halls. They eat. They get professional level strength training. All for free. Now the marginal cost of adding additional athletes is less than the list cost of a scholarship no doubt. But the idea that scholarships would be a no cost proposition for the University is absolutely laughable.
Finally, you are also wrong about facilities. Marquette has facilities for a sport like men's volleyball. They had facilities in place when they added lacrosse. If they piggyback it onto a new rec center, they could also have facilities for swimming and diving. (A sport that the BE offers.) They would have to lease facilities for hockey for both practice and competition. And that's expensive.
Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.
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Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.
Yes it is. Adding hockey would cost additional scholarship dollars. Have donors oversubscribed the total number of athletic scholarships currently available? Very doubtful. Regardless, having to fundraise additional dollars for athletic scholarships is a cost, both in terms of the money paid to fundraise, as well as the cost of dollars being directed there versus somewhere else.
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Yes it is. Adding hockey would cost additional scholarship dollars. Have donors oversubscribed the total number of athletic scholarships currently available? Very doubtful. Regardless, having to fundraise additional dollars for athletic scholarships is a cost, both in terms of the money paid to fundraise, as well as the cost of dollars being directed there versus somewhere else.
According to the blue and gold fund, Marquette currently funds 96 of a potential 136 scholarships.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/21/about-bgf.aspx
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According to the blue and gold fund, Marquette currently funds 96 of a potential 136 scholarships.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/21/about-bgf.aspx
Thank you.
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Two most recent DI hockey programs are Penn State and Arizona State. Penn State received $100 million check from the owner of the Buffalo Bills and Sabres to cover the cost of the Men's and Women's program as well as the on campus arena. Arizona State received $32 million in donations to cover the costs for approximately the first 10 years of the program and then the school will have to cover expenses. They do not play at an on campus facility.
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Two most recent DI hockey programs are Penn State and Arizona State. Penn State received $100 million check from the owner of the Buffalo Bills and Sabres to cover the cost of the Men's and Women's program as well as the on campus arena. Arizona State received $32 million in donations to cover the costs for approximately the first 10 years of the program and then the school will have to cover expenses. They do not play at an on campus facility.
bUt ScHoLaRsHiPs DoN't CoSt ThE uNiVeRsItY aNyThInG!!!111!!!
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I don't think any sport is really going to help Marquette much. But the only sports that the BE sponsors that Marquette doesn't participate in are baseball and swimming and diving. I don't think either of those will be happening any time soon.
The only thing that would be beneficial about a sport like Men's Volleyball is they have the arena to practice and play, and it gives them further inroads to recruiting markets like Chicago. But since they would have to add a women's sport to balance that out, I just don't know what that would be.
Men’s vball would mean more kids from out of state paying tuition. We have an excellent men’s club program as it is, nationally ranked #1 last year, finished 8th this year in nationals. With varsity men’s vball only having I think 4 scholarships (someone can correct me on that) it means a lot of paying students.
There are some very good players out there itching to play and looking for that opportunity. The Midwest also has some decent players and some excellent ones (fewer) that might be willing to stay closer to home.
Someone earlier said if the Big East doesn’t sponsor it no thanks. I say forget that thought process. The Midwest is ripe to take advantage of this as we did lacrosse. There are only a handful of Midwest teams, little Loyola Chicago won two national titles (with mostly California and out of state kids). Lewis, Ball State, etc in the Midwest along with powerhouse Ohio State.
We should get on this now. Add women’s golf which is not a heavy cost sport and the economics should legely pay for themselves in $$ coming in from additional tuition remissions.
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Men’s vball would mean more kids from out of state paying tuition. We have an excellent men’s club program as it is, nationally ranked #1 last year, finished 8th this year in nationals. With varsity men’s vball only having I think 4 scholarships (someone can correct me on that) it means a lot of paying students.
There are some very good players out there itching to play and looking for that opportunity. The Midwest also has some decent players and some excellent ones (fewer) that might be willing to stay closer to home.
Someone earlier said if the Big East doesn’t sponsor it no thanks. I say forget that thought process. The Midwest is ripe to take advantage of this as we did lacrosse. There are only a handful of Midwest teams, little Loyola Chicago won two national titles (with mostly California and out of state kids). Lewis, Ball State, etc in the Midwest along with powerhouse Ohio State.
We should get on this now. Add women’s golf which is not a heavy cost sport and the economics should legely pay for themselves in $$ coming in from additional tuition remissions.
If MU decides to expand its athletic offerings, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense.
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If MU decides to expand its athletic offerings, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense.
The school has been rumored to look into adding men’s volleyball, but how seriously they have taken it is unknown. With no programs in the state of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan...MU could do quite well in my opinion. Illinois has several (Four I think, mix of D1 and D2), Indiana has two.
On the golf side, the men’s program has improved immensely and has access to great courses because of the building of courses in the state.
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Women's Golf is also sponsored by the Big East.
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Looking at the Big East sponsored sports, Swimming is the most economically attractive for a private school like MU. Large roster sizes spread out over a fix number of scholarships. 9.9 for Men and 14 for women.
Georgetown for example has 51 kids on their mens and woman's rosters. So net full paying tuitions added are 27.1.
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Looking at the Big East sponsored sports, Swimming is the most economically attractive for a private school like MU. Large roster sizes spread out over a fix number of scholarships. 9.9 for Men and 14 for women.
Georgetown for example has 51 kids on their mens and woman's rosters. So net full paying tuitions added are 27.1.
We don't the proper facilities for D1 swimming. Not even close. And even if they were available somewhere else in Milwaukee, s a swim team spends so many hours in the pool every day, they really can't spend the time to travel to an off-campus site.
However, I do think when they build the new rec facility, they should seriously consider planning for the potential of adding swimming
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Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.
Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.
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Scholarships do not cost the university a thing, unless you think Marquette will go bankrupt because 18 people ride free.
That's not altogether true. Georgetown has an enrollment cap mandated by the District of Columbia, so in that scenario, a scholarship athlete is not being offset by adding enrollment.
The irony is that Georgetown has the most men's sports (14) but the fewest men's scholarships (around 60).
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Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.
Nonsense. Those "extra bodies" aren't simply walking around. They use service that cost something.
Now, they may be using numbers that don't reflect the marginal cost of an additional 60 students, but the idea that it would be of no cost to Marquette is absolutely false.
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Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.
Not accurate. Many schools are capped by how many students can be on campus. Often by available housing, meaning accepting a scholarship athlete, means accepting fewer paying students. Scholarship athletes are most definitely costing a University money.
I used to think otherwise, and then I was on committees looking at both University finances, and enrollment targets and reasons for enrollment caps.
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OK I'm going to unpack this gem a few steps at a time.
First, it is completely irrelevant how good a club team is. The quality of players at the D1 varsity level will be much higher. The expectations for facilities and the demands for training and conditioning will be well beyond what a club team has.
Second, "scholarships do not cost the university a thing?" Are you insane? Those students take up places in classrooms. They receive academic support and advising. They take up rooms in residence halls. They eat. They get professional level strength training. All for free. Now the marginal cost of adding additional athletes is less than the list cost of a scholarship no doubt. But the idea that scholarships would be a no cost proposition for the University is absolutely laughable.
Finally, you are also wrong about facilities. Marquette has facilities for a sport like men's volleyball. They had facilities in place when they added lacrosse. If they piggyback it onto a new rec center, they could also have facilities for swimming and diving. (A sport that the BE offers.) They would have to lease facilities for hockey for both practice and competition. And that's expensive.
Not completely irrelevant on the club side. When MU added women’s soccer back in my day, part of the reason was the success of our women’s club program. There was some excitement over it and some momentum that helped to get interest going. I agree on the talent, sort of. Again, back to men’s volleyball...MU has several kids on the volleyball program the last few years that were offered scholarships to play D1 vball and they declined. Some of the kids from Puerto Rico are outstanding. Overall, you are right the talent and depth would obviously be better at D1, the issue on vball side is there are so few D1 programs that really good talent has nowhere to go because or lack of opportunity.
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Not accurate. Many schools are capped by how many students can be on campus. Often by available housing, meaning accepting a scholarship athlete, means accepting fewer paying students. Scholarship athletes are most definitely costing a University money.
I used to think otherwise, and then I was on committees looking at both University finances, and enrollment targets and reasons for enrollment caps.
The sports that are equivalency for the purposes of athletic scholarships (that is fixed scholarships fractionally spread among many students ) are net tuition payers. The sport scholarships offered are ,in most cases, in lieu of academic scholarships.
Division 3 schools who need to fill capacity are added sports are rapid rates.
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Not completely irrelevant on the club side. When MU added women’s soccer back in my day, part of the reason was the success of our women’s club program. There was some excitement over it and some momentum that helped to get interest going. I agree on the talent, sort of. Again, back to men’s volleyball...MU has several kids on the volleyball program the last few years that were offered scholarships to play D1 vball and they declined. Some of the kids from Puerto Rico are outstanding. Overall, you are right the talent and depth would obviously be better at D1, the issue on vball side is there are so few D1 programs that really good talent has nowhere to go because or lack of opportunity.
Volleyball in PR is big. There are pro leagues for men and women. Almost every highschool has a male varsity volleyball team. You can earn decent coin in Europe and Asia pro leagues.
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Back to the original topic, it's interesting what UConn has been saying (or not saying) about what the move means for the football program. Here are some comments from a recent interview with Jim Calhoun, who says he "wasn't directly involved" but has "talked to people in the administration about it...over the last couple of years":
"I do still think there's going to be a lot of movement in college athletics, so we've got to have a football team to help take us there...we're a major academic institution, so we have to make sure we hold onto our football."
UConn and its supporters still seems fixated on the idea of being a "major academic institution" and that football is essential to their success. It's hard to tell whether that's residual delusion, or if it's merely lip service at this point.
https://www.espn.com/espys/story/_/id/27175592/espy-winner-jim-calhoun-talks-coaching-big-east-more (https://www.espn.com/espys/story/_/id/27175592/espy-winner-jim-calhoun-talks-coaching-big-east-more)
Here's a recent take from AAC commissioner Mike Aresco:
"Connecticut has expressed a desire of going back to a romanticized past that was the former Big East. It would typically be very rare for a large state university to do that based off basketball. If you are in college athletics at the highest level, you need to be all in with football."
The last sentence seems to sum up UConn's strategy for the past 20+ years. (See "major academic institution" above.) The move to the Big East would suggest they view things differently now.
Aresco also stated that there's "not a chance" of UConn remaining in the American Athletic Conference as a football-only member.
https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy/ac-cs-aresco-uconn-0704-story.html (https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy/ac-cs-aresco-uconn-0704-story.html)
UConn has now formally withdrawn from the AAC. But there's been no further public comment from the school president, athletic director or coach Edsall about the future of the football program.
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-aac-withdrawal-letter-20190710-20190711-o32vay7xmrhajavvbqvrrimmt4-story.html (https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-aac-withdrawal-letter-20190710-20190711-o32vay7xmrhajavvbqvrrimmt4-story.html)
And here's a closer look at the financial picture from the Hartford Courant:
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-athletic-department-finances-20190709-20190711-ljy7yf6covbvbftbc3l6pyn72i-story.html (https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-athletic-department-finances-20190709-20190711-ljy7yf6covbvbftbc3l6pyn72i-story.html)
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"Connecticut has expressed a desire of going back to a romanticized past that was the former Big East. It would typically be very rare for a large state university to do that based off basketball. If you are in college athletics at the highest level, you need to be all in with football."
This quote is pretty amazing. The first sentence seems to be unnecessarily hostile. The past was pretty great. Not sure what is "romanticized" about it.
The second sentence is quickly refuted when you look at schools like Kentucky, Kansas, Indiana and North Carolina. You could even throw in schools like Virginia, Louisville and Maryland. You can establish a national brand in athletics basked on basketball success. One could argue that UConn already had that before it started making decisions based on football.
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Here are some highlights from a good podcast on the topic, The Wheelhouse hosted by John Dankosky from Connecticut Public Radio. The guests include CPR's Colin McEnroe, Dr. Jonathan Wharton of Southern Connecticut State University and Christine Stuart of CTNewsJunkie.com:
McEnroe: "Doing nothing was not an option. According to NCAA figures, UConn subsidizes its athletics more than any university in the country...We've chosen basketball over football, there's no question about that."
"The most powerful person in the conversation always has been Tom Ritter, former Speaker of the House. He's probably more than anybody else the reason we got into Division IA football in the first place. I'm wondering who's going to make the decision about what we do with the football team now."
"Do we ever learn a lesson from any of this? If the UConn football program were a patient, it would be wearing a DNR bracelet. This is not a healthy program right now. It was 1-11 last year, people are not coming to the games. It is going to take a tremendous secondary investment after that initial large public investment to make that into any kind of competitive program."
"Do you cut your losses? Or do you deal with this as a set of sunk costs that you ultimately have to make work for you somehow? I'd like to see that debate happen in a very rational way. I don't think that debate will happen in a rational way."
Stuart: "Nobody has been held accountable for the spending that did happen as if they were in a Power 5 conference -- when they weren't in a Power 5 conference. This whole thing is happening at a time of transition for the university, a transition between presidents. So it feels like nobody is going to be held accountable for this...the taxpayers have been put out on a limb here."
https://www.npr.org/podcasts/641550318/the-wheelhouse (https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy/ac-cs-aresco-uconn-0704-story.html)
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The "major public university" emphasis is what I find most difficult to understand. While UConn is highly regarded as a university (generally ranked among the top 100 nationally), they're nowhere close to P5 schools when it comes to resources.
UConn has compared itself to the University of Michigan -- a consensus Top 30 school nationally with a $9 billion budget and an endowment of $12 billion. UConn, meanwhile, has a $2.4 billion budget (roughly a quarter the size of Michigan's) and an endowment of $450 million (a 20-to-1 difference).
Or, as stated in the podcast, UConn has been spending like a P5 school when they're not a P5 school in any way, shape or form.
Why would Connecticut legislators and university officials believe that reaching a similar level is a realistic goal? How was Division IA football alone going to be the deciding factor in elevating the university -- especially in an area of the country where you can count the number of successful, high-level football programs on one hand? That list pretty much begins and ends with Syracuse and Boston College. I guess you could include Rutgers if you really want to. Beyond that, schools like Penn State and Maryland are a stretch (central Pennsylvania and the Chesapeake Bay are hundreds of miles from the northeastern United Sates).
UConn has made some very questionable decisions regarding football over the past 20+ years. I'll be very interested to see what they do moving forward.
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Volleyball in PR is big. There are pro leagues for men and women. Almost every highschool has a male varsity volleyball team. You can earn decent coin in Europe and Asia pro leagues.
I worked with an engineer from PR. He had a part time job as the volleyball coach at a local D-III college.
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I worked with an engineer from PR. He had a part time job as the volleyball coach at a local D-III college.
At my town's rec center, there are a group of middle-aged men who appear to be of Southeast Asian descent who play volleyball there every Sunday. There is never more than one hit per side (special Pakistani rules, perhaps?). The most common way of hitting it is to clench both fists together and use an overhand swing to punch the ball. It's very entertaining to watch.
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The "major public university" emphasis is what I find most difficult to understand. While UConn is highly regarded as a university (generally ranked among the top 100 nationally), they're nowhere close to P5 schools when it comes to resources.
UConn has compared itself to the University of Michigan -- a consensus Top 30 school nationally with a $9 billion budget and an endowment of $12 billion. UConn, meanwhile, has a $2.4 billion budget (roughly a quarter the size of Michigan's) and an endowment of $450 million (a 20-to-1 difference).
Or, as stated in the podcast, UConn has been spending like a P5 school when they're not a P5 school in any way, shape or form.
Why would Connecticut legislators and university officials believe that reaching a similar level is a realistic goal? How was Division IA football alone going to be the deciding factor in elevating the university -- especially in an area of the country where you can count the number of successful, high-level football programs on one hand? That list pretty much begins and ends with Syracuse and Boston College. I guess you could include Rutgers if you really want to. Beyond that, schools like Penn State and Maryland are a stretch (central Pennsylvania and the Chesapeake Bay are hundreds of miles from the northeastern United Sates).
UConn has made some very questionable decisions regarding football over the past 20+ years. I'll be very interested to see what they do moving forward.
I think U Conn football was built on a lousy foundation. Specifically, the decision to have their stadium off campus. I realize the stadium was a gift . However ,they had plenty of land around Storrs and could have built an attractive stadium that would have served as a focal point for tail gates and bringing alumni and other supporters to the University .
Over time a decent football tradition could have been built up . An attractive environment makes it easier to recruit. I don’t think they could have been a powerhouse but it would have been possible to have a winning record consistently with a better footing on campus.
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It would have helped if they hired a decent coach after Edsall left too.
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https://twitter.com/blauds/status/1154750274461949957
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Next season it is!
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Next season it is!
Fantastic!
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$17 million seems like a lot, but when you factor in the American withholding $5 million in league payouts this year, $6 million in payouts next, and UConn being forced to pay $1 million annually for six years (total = $17 million), it doesn't look like a bad deal at all.
UConn fans are even saying that they are getting P5 regional opponents (likely Rutgers, BC, Syracuse and Pittsburgh) reaching out about playing. They will be just fine.
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Does this mean they will be playing in the Big East for the 19/20 season, or 20/21?
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Does this mean they will be playing in the Big East for the 19/20 season, or 20/21?
20/21.
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Great news.
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The conference is said to have sought a much higher exit fee while UConn tried to negotiate something closer to $15 million or below. The sides eventually found a compromise, which involves maintaining an aspect of their partnership: UConn has agreed to schedule four home-and-home basketball series with AAC teams, men’s or women’s. No teams or years have been assigned.
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UConn has agreed to schedule four home-and-home basketball series with AAC teams, men’s or women’s. No teams or years have been assigned.
Good god, was the American losing 120 straight against the UConn women not enough for them?
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When your average attendance triples when any AAC women’s team plays UConn.....no one cares if they win the game. Having the opportunity to schedule UConn women (and losing by 40 points) is the win.
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Good god, was the American losing 120 straight against the UConn women not enough for them?
I would think the H/H on the women's side would be USF. Memphis is rumored on the men's side.
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So now U Conn can tell 2020 recruits they will be playing in the Big East next year . They should be coming into the league with some real momentum now.
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Yay!
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I would think the H/H on the women's side would be USF. Memphis is rumored on the men's side.
I saw article last week that Penny Hardaway was pissed about UConn leaving.
I can see this as a reason why.
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UConn officially leaving AAC in 2020, paying $17 million exit fee
https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/nhregister/article/UConn-officially-leaving-AAC-in-2020-14178493.php?sid=5baaacf72ddf9c545d737065&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newhavenregister_ctinsider
Jeff Jacobs: UConn pays for a 2020 exit from the AAC
Jeff Jacobs
ttps://www.ctinsider.com/sports/jeffjacobs/nhregister/article/Jeff-Jacobs-UConn-pays-for-a-2020-exit-from-the-14179369.php?sid=5baaacf72ddf9c545d737065&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newhavenregister_ctinsider
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A little off topic, but I saw a post on r/Collegebasketball on Reddit about St. Thomas (MN) possibly making the jump to D1. This is what one of the commenters said:
"I have a family member that is in the upper administration at St. Thomas (non-athletic). What their bosses are telling big donors is that the long term plan is to try to join the Big East. The athletic director at St. Thomas has huge aspirations for the school and was formally at Penn State. I know for a fact that people at St. Thomas have always been upset that other regional comparison universities, specifically Creighton and Marquette, are national known for their sports teams even though their academics are comparable to St. Thomas.
However the catch to joining the Big East would to be heavily invest in Basketball, which St. Thomas is strong at the D3 level but obviously that’s not Big East level. This would obviously require a huge increase in the budget. There is also talk about jumping up to D1 to join a mid major league that would allow for football to continue, which this post would suggest. Normally a school transitioning to D1 takes many many years but St. Thomas is hoping to bypass this and wants to use that the got voted out of the MIAC for being too good as the reason for an NCAA waiver."
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A little off topic, but I saw a post on r/Collegebasketball on Reddit about St. Thomas (MN) possibly making the jump to D1. This is what one of the commenters said:
"I have a family member that is in the upper administration at St. Thomas (non-athletic). What their bosses are telling big donors is that the long term plan is to try to join the Big East. The athletic director at St. Thomas has huge aspirations for the school and was formally at Penn State. I know for a fact that people at St. Thomas have always been upset that other regional comparison universities, specifically Creighton and Marquette, are national known for their sports teams even though their academics are comparable to St. Thomas.
However the catch to joining the Big East would to be heavily invest in Basketball, which St. Thomas is strong at the D3 level but obviously that’s not Big East level. This would obviously require a huge increase in the budget. There is also talk about jumping up to D1 to join a mid major league that would allow for football to continue, which this post would suggest. Normally a school transitioning to D1 takes many many years but St. Thomas is hoping to bypass this and wants to use that the got voted out of the MIAC for being too good as the reason for an NCAA waiver."
That sounds good and all, but that is a long, long road to travel down. Even if they are admitted into D1, they are going to have to latch onto a conference at the lowest levels and work their way up. And are they going to keep their football team?
Schools like the University of Denver show that even with a good location and solid resources, becoming a school worthy of a high major invite is very, very difficult.
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A little off topic, but I saw a post on r/Collegebasketball on Reddit about St. Thomas (MN) possibly making the jump to D1. This is what one of the commenters said:
"I have a family member that is in the upper administration at St. Thomas (non-athletic). What their bosses are telling big donors is that the long term plan is to try to join the Big East.
I get the aspiration, but that's frankly an unrealistic goal. No high major program is a recent addition to D1. Even Butler has been D1 since the 1930s. Have any A-10 or MVC program been D1 less than 40 or 50 years?
Unless they have a multigenerational plan, this is a pointless goal. Joining the Summit in hopes of jumping to the Horizon is far more realistic. Getting to the Big East before 2060 is pie in the sky, and who knows what the D1 landscape will look like by then.
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A little off topic, but I saw a post on r/Collegebasketball on Reddit about St. Thomas (MN) possibly making the jump to D1. This is what one of the commenters said:
"I have a family member that is in the upper administration at St. Thomas (non-athletic). What their bosses are telling big donors is that the long term plan is to try to join the Big East. The athletic director at St. Thomas has huge aspirations for the school and was formally at Penn State. I know for a fact that people at St. Thomas have always been upset that other regional comparison universities, specifically Creighton and Marquette, are national known for their sports teams even though their academics are comparable to St. Thomas.
However the catch to joining the Big East would to be heavily invest in Basketball, which St. Thomas is strong at the D3 level but obviously that’s not Big East level. This would obviously require a huge increase in the budget. There is also talk about jumping up to D1 to join a mid major league that would allow for football to continue, which this post would suggest. Normally a school transitioning to D1 takes many many years but St. Thomas is hoping to bypass this and wants to use that the got voted out of the MIAC for being too good as the reason for an NCAA waiver."
Have heard the same thing from a buddy who is not connected, just has siblings / nieces nephews who are Tommies. It is apparently real talk up there.
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Interesting - but I thought they were kicked out of MIAC because their football program was running up the score by 60 points or more against the vast majority of their competition. Tommy football is huge - why would they want to join a non-football conference like the Big East? It's great to dream big, but they would be better off joining a low- or mid-major D1 conference with football.
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By my count the only successful transition was Belmont. And that was pretty low manjor and relying on one coach. If they were to magically get invited to high major they'd be looking at at least what 3 or 4 years of being a joke till they even had D1 level athletes to compete with DePaul.
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By my count the only successful transition was Belmont. And that was pretty low manjor and relying on one coach. If they were to magically get invited to high major they'd be looking at at least what 3 or 4 years of being a joke till they even had D1 level athletes to compete with DePaul.
And even Belmont has been D1 for more than 20 years and would need to make 2 jumps to get to the Big East, assuming they could get a MVC invite first.
Further, St Thomas would have to not just climb the ladder, but show why they're more valuable than a Dayton, SLU, VCU, or any of the other myriad programs that would sell their souls for that invite.
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And even Belmont has been D1 for more than 20 years and would need to make 2 jumps to get to the Big East, assuming they could get a MVC invite first.
Further, St Thomas would have to not just climb the ladder, but show why they're more valuable than a Dayton, SLU, VCU, or any of the other myriad programs that would sell their souls for that invite.
Being in the 15th largest DMA positions them well above Dayton, SLU, VCU, etc.
Re: Football, maybe their football aspiration is to be Villanova.
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I thought Le Moyne was ahead of them on the BE invite list?
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St. Thomas now is a better option than Dayton.
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Being in the 15th largest DMA positions them well above Dayton, SLU, VCU, etc.
Re: Football, maybe their football aspiration is to be Villanova.
You have to bring some proof of D1 success to the table, though. The floor right now is either Seton Hall's 13 NCAA appearances or Creighton's lone Elite Eight appearance. Everyone else has 16+ bids and aside from Xavier, multiple Final Fours. If just adding a media market was the goal, put Boston U & Detroit ahead of St. Thomas on the desirability list. At least both have made a Sweet 16. And frankly, SLU, Duquesne, and even Belmont bring top-30 markets with some proof of D1 basketball success.
I'm not saying never, I'm just saying any time in the next 40 years is probably way too soon to even consider them viable.
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I don't think moving to D1 with a goal of eventually getting into the BE is a bad long-term goal for UST. I just hope they are realistic about the steps they would need to take and the timelines.
As for their football program and MIAC, I think them blowing people's doors off on the football field was the last straw for the other members. The other schools have been wary of how much they have grown and what that means for the resources they can devote to their overall athletic program. Football just gave them the final push - turned them into the bad guy.
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You have to bring some proof of D1 success to the table, though. The floor right now is either Seton Hall's 13 NCAA appearances or Creighton's lone Elite Eight appearance. Everyone else has 16+ bids and aside from Xavier, multiple Final Fours. If just adding a media market was the goal, put Boston U & Detroit ahead of St. Thomas on the desirability list. At least both have made a Sweet 16. And frankly, SLU, Duquesne, and even Belmont bring top-30 markets with some proof of D1 basketball success.
I'm not saying never, I'm just saying any time in the next 40 years is probably way too soon to even consider them viable.
Hell, Cinci has been desperately trying to get an invite to one of the grown-up tables for quite a while now and they have a couple (old) national championships, a FF, a couple EE and a bunch of bowl games. I understand that they wouldn't make sense for the BEast because Cincinnati is already represented, I'm just agreeing with the point everyone is making that even established D1 athletics programs have trouble moving into top-tier high major conferences.
This is a total pipe dream. Not going to happen.
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My dad is a Tommie and then sent 4 kids to MU. I would love this just for bragging rights/trash talk possibilities
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You have to bring some proof of D1 success to the table, though. The floor right now is either Seton Hall's 13 NCAA appearances or Creighton's lone Elite Eight appearance. Everyone else has 16+ bids and aside from Xavier, multiple Final Fours. If just adding a media market was the goal, put Boston U & Detroit ahead of St. Thomas on the desirability list. At least both have made a Sweet 16. And frankly, SLU, Duquesne, and even Belmont bring top-30 markets with some proof of D1 basketball success.
I'm not saying never, I'm just saying any time in the next 40 years is probably way too soon to even consider them viable.
Recent success is the only thing that matters. No one cares that St John's and DePaul were really good at some point. Only that they've been dogs hit for a long time now.
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Recent success is the only thing that matters. No one cares that St John's and DePaul were really good at some point. Only that they've been dogs hit for a long time now.
That isn't really accurate. Recent success only matters if it built a good foundation to sustain that success.
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Recent success is the only thing that matters. No one cares that St John's and DePaul were really good at some point. Only that they've been dogs hit for a long time now.
Good point, that's why we kicked them both out of the league and replaced them with Wichita State and VCU.
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Nothing is impossible. But there's a gigantic difference between Division III and the Big East. This would be an unbelievably huge hurdle.
The Tommies men's basketball team averages around 900 fans a game. That's great for Division III -- but pitiful even by DePaul's standards (roughly 3,000 a game).
Where would they practice and play? Is St. Thomas willing to invest likely hundreds of millions of dollars in new athletic facilities? (The Al McGuire Center cost $31 million to build 15 years ago; construction costs for Wintrust Arena totaled $175 million.)
What conference would they be part of in the meantime? (Maybe the Summit League?) Who would they schedule? What rivalries would interest fans? Could they triple or quadruple their attendance, even when they're getting trounced by high-major Division I schools?
How would St. Thomas fare competing for fans with the Minnesota Golden Gophers (basketball, football and hockey), Minnesota Vikings (NFL), Minnesota Wild (NHL), Minnesota Timberwolves (NBA), even the Minnesota Whitecaps (NWHL)?
Would they be willing to upgrade other athletic programs and facilities (women's basketball, men's and women's soccer, etc.) to compete in the Big East?
Even if St. Thomas was willing to spend $500 million over the course of the next 10-20 years, and if the dice all rolled the right way, they might still be looking at Horizon League or Missouri Valley Conference membership.
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You have to bring some proof of D1 success to the table, though. The floor right now is either Seton Hall's 13 NCAA appearances or Creighton's lone Elite Eight appearance. Everyone else has 16+ bids and aside from Xavier, multiple Final Fours. If just adding a media market was the goal, put Boston U & Detroit ahead of St. Thomas on the desirability list. At least both have made a Sweet 16. And frankly, SLU, Duquesne, and even Belmont bring top-30 markets with some proof of D1 basketball success.
I'm not saying never, I'm just saying any time in the next 40 years is probably way too soon to even consider them viable.
I don't disagree with your reasoning, but I can see where a few drunk Tommy boosters have dreamed about it using the reasoning it gets the Big East + Fox Sports a neighboring / contiguous state with a huge media market (top brands will spend national money in MSP that they would never spend in STL, Dayton or Richmond). MSP is closer to Chicago and NY in terms of media importance than it is Indy, Omaha, Milwaukee or those A-10 cities I mentioned. I can also see the Big East (and maybe Fox) thinking 25 years down the road and putting them in the maybe category. You always have to be planning.
That said, I want to stay at 11 to preserve the round robin. I think imbalanced scheduling ruins conferences as much as anything.
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One of the other big keys is relationships. Marquette got into the Great Midwest back in the day in part thanks to DePaul. When the Big East came calling years later, Marquette was the prize and brought DePaul along. When the Big East restructured, it was largely Creighton's relationship with Marquette that got them an invite. UConn is coming back because of decades of previous relations. Just having the requisite size and success won't do it.
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I live walking distance from St. Thomas and nearly went there before picking MU. Great campus, lots of money, really nice facilities (for D3). The football games are a blast. When I tell people who went to St. Thomas that I went to Marquette they often make comments that Marquette is essentially what St. Thomas wants to be someday (clearly referring to athletics because otherwise they are pretty comparable). It could happen eventually but honestly it is a long ways and a lot of $$$ from happening. Frankly I think it would seriously damage the reputation of the Big East to take a school like that until they have a track record of success in D1 and Big East level resources. What would someone from New York say about the news that in addition to UConn, St. Thomas is joining the BE? Also I think football will be a higher priority for them in the near term so the BE is not a good fit for that.
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St. Louis hasn't gotten a Big East invite yet -- despite the fact that its men's basketball program goes back 100 years (including 2 Atlantic 10 titles and 4 NCAA appearances in the past 8 years, plus history with Marquette and DePaul through the GMC and CUSA) and it's located in a top 20 metro area.
St. Thomas has a looooooong way to go just to reach that level.
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Maybe the best example for St. Thomas to follow would be Butler -- which first competed as an independent in Division I (until 1946), then in the Mid-American and Indiana Collegiate Conferences (1940s to 1970s) before joining the Horizon League in 1989.
Over the course of 4 coaches (Barry Collier, Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens) and 16 seasons (1996-2012), Butler was possibly the most successful mid-major men's program in Division I. The Bulldogs earned 10 NCAA bids and won 16 games, including 4 Sweet 16 and 2 national title game appearances.
That got the Big East's attention. Along with a top 40 metro area and an average attendance of more than 8,000 fans a game.
Creighton was a similar story: 9 NCAA appearances over the course of 15 years in the Missouri Valley Conference, plus the support of 17,000+ crazed fans (what else is there to do during the winter in Omaha?) attending every home game.
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Nothing is impossible. But there's a gigantic difference between Division III and the Big East. This would be an unbelievably huge hurdle.
The Tommies men's basketball team averages around 900 fans a game. That's great for Division III -- but pitiful even by DePaul's standards (roughly 3,000 a game).
Where would they practice and play? Is St. Thomas willing to invest likely hundreds of millions of dollars in new athletic facilities? (The Al McGuire Center cost $31 million to build 15 years ago; construction costs for Wintrust Arena totaled $175 million.)
What conference would they be part of in the meantime? (Maybe the Summit League?) Who would they schedule? What rivalries would interest fans? Could they triple or quadruple their attendance, even when they're getting trounced by high-major Division I schools?
How would St. Thomas fare competing for fans with the Minnesota Golden Gophers (basketball, football and hockey), Minnesota Vikings (NFL), Minnesota Wild (NHL), Minnesota Timberwolves (NBA), even the Minnesota Whitecaps (NWHL)?
Would they be willing to upgrade other athletic programs and facilities (women's basketball, men's and women's soccer, etc.) to compete in the Big East?
Even if St. Thomas was willing to spend $500 million over the course of the next 10-20 years, and if the dice all rolled the right way, they might still be looking at Horizon League or Missouri Valley Conference membership.
How dare you forget the Loons
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How dare you forget the Loons
Actually didn't forget them -- but they don't play during the winter, do they? Include them and you'd also have to include the Minnesota Twins, Minnesota Gophers (baseball), etc.
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Actually didn't forget them -- but they don't play during the winter, do they? Include them and you'd also have to include the Minnesota Twins, Minnesota Gophers (baseball), etc.
I put it in teal, but they do start their season in February FWIW and have higher attendance than many of the other teams listed.
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I put it in teal, but they do start their season in February FWIW and have higher attendance than many of the other teams listed.
I liked the inclusion of the Whitecaps...
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The Whitecaps led the NWHL in attendance during the 2018-19 season, averaging 1,200 fans a game -- 33% more than St. Thomas men's basketball. The Tommies athletic program is big-time for Division III, but totally small-time in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro market.
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Fortune favors the bold or something
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Just the fact we're talking about a D3 school instead of SLU or Dayton makes me so happy. Hi Dayton Fan! ABD!
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You have to bring some proof of D1 success to the table, though. The floor right now is either Seton Hall's 13 NCAA appearances or Creighton's lone Elite Eight appearance. Everyone else has 16+ bids and aside from Xavier, multiple Final Fours. If just adding a media market was the goal, put Boston U & Detroit ahead of St. Thomas on the desirability list. At least both have made a Sweet 16. And frankly, SLU, Duquesne, and even Belmont bring top-30 markets with some proof of D1 basketball success.
I'm not saying never, I'm just saying any time in the next 40 years is probably way too soon to even consider them viable.
And if a particle beam transporter if developed before then, Gonzaga will have already taken that spot.
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Just the fact we're talking about a D3 school instead of SLU or Dayton makes me so happy. Hi Dayton Fan! ABD!
Preach
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St. Louis hasn't gotten a Big East invite yet -- despite the fact that its men's basketball program goes back 100 years (including 2 Atlantic 10 titles and 4 NCAA appearances in the past 8 years, plus history with Marquette and DePaul through the GMC and CUSA) and it's located in a top 20 metro area.
St. Louis is the Baltimore of the Midwest: has baseball, a lot of history, but much of the city has been abandoned. STL has lost 65% of its population since 1950 and will fall under 300,000 at the next census.
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St. Louis is the Baltimore of the Midwest: has baseball, a lot of history, but much of the city has been abandoned. STL has lost 65% of its population since 1950 and will fall under 300,000 at the next census.
Census population is meaningless, market size is what matters. Compare Atlanta and Milwaukee. Atlanta is the 8th largest media market and Milwaukee is 35th. And yet Milwaukee has nearly 100,000 more residents in the city proper.
St Louis matters not because of city size but the 21st largest media market.
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But really media market is not the top reason schools are invited to join. If that were the case, SLU would have received the invite long before Creighton. It's not unimportant, but resources devoted to basketball and fan support are far more important factors.
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St. Louis is the Baltimore of the Midwest: has baseball, a lot of history, but much of the city has been abandoned. STL has lost 65% of its population since 1950 and will fall under 300,000 at the next census.
That’s a burn on St Louis, having been to both cities many times I’ll take St. Louis over Baltimore for everything except crab cakes.
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Census population is meaningless, market size is what matters. Compare Atlanta and Milwaukee. Atlanta is the 8th largest media market and Milwaukee is 35th. And yet Milwaukee has nearly 100,000 more residents in the city proper.
St Louis matters not because of city size but the 21st largest media market.
What good is being in a “media market” when you barely register in the media and public consciousness? SLU falls behind Missouri, Illinois and Kansas in STL.
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What good is being in a “media market” when you barely register in the media and public consciousness? SLU falls behind Missouri, Illinois and Kansas in STL.
FFS I'm not endorsing SLU. How much does St. Thomas register in the Minneapolis/St. Paul media market? My point was that St. Thomas' position in the 15th largest media market isn't that important with no track record of success and IF we were strictly looking at media market size there are other, more established programs in top-30 markets.
Then when DFW noted St. Louis' population size in the city proper, I pointed out that market size is not tied to city population size. I don't give a goddamn about SLU. Nothing I said indicates otherwise. That wasn't even remotely the point of the post.
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What good is being in a “media market” when you barely register in the media and public consciousness? SLU falls behind Missouri, Illinois and Kansas in STL.
Good question. Looking at you Rutgers.
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I'm thinking out loud here, but does metropolitan size really matter that much any more (when it comes to adding a new BEast team)? The size of a city/metro area was important during the last conference realignment when the huge conferences were making conference-specific cable channels and wanted their share of cable subscriptions. With people cutting the cord does it still benefit conferences to have their own channel? Does the Big10 make as much money per subscriber from Spectrum as they do from, say, YouTube TV or SlingTV?
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SLU?
Top 20 market. 3 million people. $100 million facilities. Actual aggressive hoops boosters these days. (Richard Chaifetz etc...) Their long time school President retired several years ago. He was a big obstacle with their hoops commitment for 25 years. Times have changed. Fr. Lannon for example, former Creighton President was very popular and had good people skills. He was a former VP at Marquette. Former MU Dean of Art and Sciences Fr. Schlegel (RIP) was also Creighton President in recent memory. Relationships matter, among other things. The current SLU President is not a rah rah sports type but a significant upgrade to the past.
When SLU is good, the entire Metro gets behind the team as it did in the Majerus and Spoon era. They were getting 17k a game when in a league with Marquette etc...
They would do just fine in the Big East.
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I'm thinking out loud here, but does metropolitan size really matter that much any more (when it comes to adding a new BEast team)? The size of a city/metro area was important during the last conference realignment when the huge conferences were making conference-specific cable channels and wanted their share of cable subscriptions. With people cutting the cord does it still benefit conferences to have their own channel? Does the Big10 make as much money per subscriber from Spectrum as they do from, say, YouTube TV or SlingTV?
That's a good question and I'd be curious to know the answer, but so far, while cord cutting is on the increase, as of a year ago cable subscribers still outnumbered cord-cutters by nearly 6-1.
But however the money is disbursed, the larger the audience a program has, the larger the demand will be. So if FS1, for instance, was weighing large vs small media market programs, the larger one will likely be more attractive on the basis of having more regional subscribers in that area.
Outside of the state schools that generally have broad appeal, I have to imagine population density will still matter if people are cutting the cord for packaged rather than a la carte programming, and the highest population density will be in those metropolitan markets.
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Good question. Looking at you Rutgers.
Not sure on the exact details, but my understanding is that adding Rutgers somehow allowed the B1G to get the B1G Network onto all basic cable packages in the tri-state area. So even if no one is watching them, Rutgers added millions of people paying for the B1G Network.
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SLU?
Top 20 market. 3 million people. $100 million facilities. Actual aggressive hoops boosters these days. (Richard Chaifetz etc...) Their long time school President retired several years ago. He was a big obstacle with their hoops commitment for 25 years. Times have changed. Fr. Lannon for example, former Creighton President was very popular and had good people skills. He was a former VP at Marquette. Former MU Dean of Art and Sciences Fr. Schlegel (RIP) was also Creighton President in recent memory. Relationships matter, among other things. The current SLU President is not a rah rah sports type but a significant upgrade to the past.
When SLU is good, the entire Metro gets behind the team as it did in the Majerus and Spoon era. They were getting 17k a game when in a league with Marquette etc...
They would do just fine in the Big East.
I think SLU would have been a natural choice for the NBE had the conference formed at a different time. Unfortunately when the C7 was looking for other members, they were just starting a mini-turn around under Majerus at the same time the University was undergoing turmoil. Xavier was always a shoo-in. Creighton was trending upward, had solid attendance history and used their Jesuit connections well. Butler was coming off of two recent Final Fours built on a decade plus of success.
SLU was left out and likely will never be let in.
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Not sure on the exact details, but my understanding is that adding Rutgers somehow allowed the B1G to get the B1G Network onto all basic cable packages in the tri-state area. So even if no one is watching them, Rutgers added millions of people paying for the B1G Network.
A lot of Big 14 alumni in the northeast could now watch Penn State and Michigan State play sports
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I think SLU would have been a natural choice for the NBE had the conference formed at a different time. Unfortunately when the C7 was looking for other members, they were just starting a mini-turn around under Majerus at the same time the University was undergoing turmoil. Xavier was always a shoo-in. Creighton was trending upward, had solid attendance history and used their Jesuit connections well. Butler was coming off of two recent Final Fours built on a decade plus of success.
SLU was left out and likely will never be let in.
Yep timing matters. Coaching hires/admin/boosters matter. Majerus was an elite x’s and o’s/player development coach. Just give him good enough players. Ford is solid with recruiting and is very good at selling the program etc...successful coaching continuity, stringing years together makes a difference. Brad Soderberg, good guy, very good defensive x’s o’s player development, but not a guy who can do a lot with little and not a public face for a program. UVA assistant recent years has been perfect for him. Crews was a disaster with recruiting and Rick’s friend. Jim Whitesell, new Buffalo coach was a nice assistant there as was Moser. .....SLU did fine in Great Midwest, Conference USA. I’ve been a long time Marquette season ticket holder but Majerus era SLU vs Shaka Smart VCU games were as packed and loud as an MU game I’ve attended.
I know that many higher profile former and current NBA players would be very supportive of SLU if SLU were in a high tier league. Larry Hughes, Jayson Tatum, Bradley Beal, etc..even the non-alums. Hughes, Anthony Bonner etc...already spend a lot of time around their teams. A lot of them are friends.
It takes preparation and a little luck to meet opportunity.
I always know when someone is not familiar with that market when they say, oh that’s a good baseball town.
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Good point, that's why we kicked them both out of the league and replaced them with Wichita State and VCU.
I mean.... Yes?
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Not sure on the exact details, but my understanding is that adding Rutgers somehow allowed the B1G to get the B1G Network onto all basic cable packages in the tri-state area. So even if no one is watching them, Rutgers added millions of people paying for the B1G Network.
This. Why Rutgers was a choice over UConn. There are 9 million people in New Jersey vs. 3.5 million in Connecticut. That's a heck of a lot more cable subscribers for the B1G Network.
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Not sure on the exact details, but my understanding is that adding Rutgers somehow allowed the B1G to get the B1G Network onto all basic cable packages in the tri-state area. So even if no one is watching them, Rutgers added millions of people paying for the B1G Network.
This. Why Rutgers was a choice over UConn. There are 9 million people in New Jersey vs. 3.5 million in Connecticut. That's a heck of a lot more cable subscribers for the B1G Network.
Rutgers had several positive factors in its favor.
1. Rutgers brings both the NY /NJ market for media into play, but also the Philadelphia market.
2. Rutgers football had been a solid program at The Big East level. NJ is a very competitive high school football area which produces a lot of talent which the Big Ten wants a piece of . It is football media that matters .
3. Rutgers has considerable respect in the academic community . Big Ten University Presidents welcomed the addition.
4. Rutgers was paired with Maryland entrance and together the two presented a very compelling media story in mid atlantic
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Rutgers had several positive factors in its favor.
1. Rutgers brings both the NY /NJ market for media into play, but also the Philadelphia market.
2. Rutgers football had been a solid program at The Big East level. NJ is a very competitive high school football area which produces a lot of talent which the Big Ten wants a piece of . It is football media that matters .
3. Rutgers has considerable respect in the academic community . Big Ten University Presidents welcomed the addition.
4. Rutgers was paired with Maryland entrance and together the two presented a very compelling media story in mid atlantic
FIFY
#3 is relevant in that there is a certain bar B1G schools need to meet academically, but Rutgers was brought in for the TV money, not because it is a nice story or that they were any good at football.
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FIFY
#3 is relevant in that there is a certain bar B1G schools need to meet academically, but Rutgers was brought in for the TV money, not because it is a nice story or that they were any good at football.
Those were elements of the case that made them a better candidate Big Ten than U Conn, which is what the discussion was in earlier in the thread. Yes, it was all about the media, but they also needed point 4 which was Maryland media market. No Maryland , No Rutgers.
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Simon Templar, St. Francis of Assisi and a team of Saint Bernards have as good a chance of joining the Big East as St. Thomas does.
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I was reading something over vacation that the (4) basketball games UConn will tentatively play from on the AAC in transition period are:
Men's BB: Memphis & Temple
Women's BB: USF & TBD
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FIFY
#3 is relevant in that there is a certain bar B1G schools need to meet academically, but Rutgers was brought in for the TV money, not because it is a nice story or that they were any good at football.
Didn’t Nebraska break the AAU trend? Maybe it was a one-time exceptions to get the Nebraska football brand. I think they had recently lost their AAU status too.
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Didn’t Nebraska break the AAU trend? Maybe it was a one-time exceptions to get the Nebraska football brand. I think they had recently lost their AAU status too.
They lost it after the Big Ten added them. I believe it was due to a restructuring where the medical school was no longer was part of the university in Lincoln but a separate part of the university system.
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That's a good question and I'd be curious to know the answer, but so far, while cord cutting is on the increase, as of a year ago cable subscribers still outnumbered cord-cutters by nearly 6-1.
Well, it would be closer to 3-1 if the courts hadn’t ordered all those NASCAR fans to stay away from scissors and knives.
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What good is being in a “media market” when you barely register in the media and public consciousness? SLU falls behind Missouri, Illinois and Kansas in STL.
Agree completely. The sec grabbed Missouri to get the St Louis market. UConn is perfect because it helps with the market important to the big east - New York. Believe i was told the advertising Marquette gets on ny tv alone is worth $20 million.
I'm glad Seton Hall is exciting, I'm sorry chris mullins is gone, but UConn men and women are a huge addition.
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Agree completely. The sec grabbed Missouri to get the St Louis market. UConn is perfect because it helps with the market important to the big east - New York. Believe i was told the advertising Marquette gets on ny tv alone is worth $20 million.
I'm glad Seton Hall is exciting, I'm sorry chris mullins is gone, but UConn men and women are a huge addition.
Again, respectfully, this is short sighted thinking of not knowing or understanding a particular market.
Two things: 1) The Market, and the 2) Program.
The market:
St. Louis is not a baseball town. It is a big sports metro. The baseball team just so happens to have been good every other decade since the 1800’s. The other pro teams draw very well, and get tv viewers. Local college teams get big followings when they are competitive. Last year for example, the third straight down year for the Cardinals, they finished first in MLB in local tv ratings. The St. Louis Blues, have a very big long time local following. Last year, a non-Stanley Cup year for example, the Blues finished 3rd in United States NHL TV ratings. Both teams play their games on Fox Sports Midwest. The Blues of course broke records this year with the highest local TV ratings ever. SLU plays some of their games on this channel.
The St. Louis Rams were very well supported. They had 95 consecutive sellouts after moving to St. Louis over a 10 year period. Despite winning only 39% of their games in their first 17 seasons, they sold out 95% of those games. This includes the worst 5 games stretch in NFL history. Since moving to L.A. St. Louis has had higher Rams TV ratings than Los Angeles much of the time.
The market is also a big sports special event market. U.S. Womens soccer teams has had among its highest attendance with its games in St. Louis. The men will be playing in September around the time of anticipation of the new MLS teams in the market. NCAA hoops first rounds, regionals, including a final four gave all been highly attended in the market.
Let’s get to college. This is how that market gets covered by media.
1) Mizzou ( This is no different than Wisconsin in Milwaukee, Ohio St. in Cincinnati, Penn St. in Philly, Nebraska in Omaha, especially when it comes to college football. But also hoops when the state school is competitive. Indiana in Indianapolis is bigger than Butler.
Of course SEC scooped up Mizzou, it is the big football state school. Mizzou is unveiling its new $100 million football facility right now next to its stadium. Zero chance that happens without already being in the SEC. Mizzou gets covered first in the St. Louis market, just as Wisconsin gets covered first in Milwaukee. Does that mean there is no market for Marquette basketball? Nope, not at all.
SLU is covered 2nd to Mizzou in the St. Louis market. If SLU hoops is very good, it jumps to first. It works roughly similar to Wisconsin and Marquette.
Illinois gets covered a distant 3rd, but covered. It helps when they are good at something. This year was the 2nd lowest rated Mizzou v Illinois annual basketball game ever. It also happened to be carried on the Big Ten Network for the first time ever. Many in St. Louis get the Big Ten Network on lower tiers. However, not many watch it.
Mizzou games are on SEC Network, other forms of ESPN, mostly, and occasionally Fox Sports Midwest if not on the others first.
I am not sure why Kansas was mentioned. They are not covered in St. Louis sports media, tv, print, radio. There are some alums and they will draw well if they play hoops in St. Louis. But, they are not a regular in person nor television draw. You will find some Big 8 Big 12, Big 10, MVC, and then a wide variety of fandoms of teams all over the country, in St. Louis.
When SLU is competitive, and plays competitive teams, the 3 million metro area rallies around the team. SLU did just fine in several different eras with viewers and attendance. What SLU needs is to string together winning seasons for longer periods, with a coach or multiple coaches that can be successful. SLU would not be a DePaul etc in the Big East. Rick Majerus did what Rick Majerus does. He finds wealthy alums/donors to support his programs. Jon Huntsman at Utah. Richard Chaifetz at SLU. Chaifetz is making his investment and involvement long term at SLU.
The Missouri Valley Conference doesn’t move the needle among SLU fans nor casual Stl area hoops fans unless it is in small doses, Valley Tourney, NCAA’s, head to head. The Atlantic 10 also doesn’t move the needle among local fans unless it is a perceived rival in the league, or strong program in the league. If an opponent is good or considered a rival that does better. It isn’t difficult to see that if SLU raised its league profile, it would do well with regard to media coverage, attendance, TV, etc...
That chance may or may not ever happen. But saying Mizzou has the market because of SEC, or that Kansas has the market for ? reasons is silly season.
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That’s a burn on St Louis, having been to both cities many times I’ll take St. Louis over Baltimore for everything except crab cakes.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/kc0kqKNFu7v35gPkwB/giphy.gif)
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Weird, I am an alumnus of both UST and Marquette. The difficult part about attending St. Thomas is when people ask if you went to school in the Virgin Islands?
I like the idea of adding St. Thomas to the Bid East in the long-term. Academically the school is a great fit and the Minneapolis/St. Paul market is appealing. But let's see how UST handles the transition in the next few years (facilities, fan attendance, campus expansion, etc...), before saying yes or no.
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Weird, I am an alumnus of both UST and Marquette. The difficult part about attending St. Thomas is when people ask if you went to school in the Virgin Islands?
I like the idea of adding St. Thomas to the Bid East in the long-term. Academically the school is a great fit and the Minneapolis/St. Paul market is appealing. But let's see how UST handles the transition in the next few years (facilities, fan attendance, campus expansion, etc...), before saying yes or no.
Few years? It’s going to be a couple decades before UST is going to have any shot at BE membership.
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Few years? It’s going to be a couple decades before UST is going to have any shot at BE membership.
Yep. If this happens in less than 20 years, it would be a miracle.
Teams move up to D-1 all the time now, but they don’t make it to one of the big six power conferences.
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In the Athletic, Dana O'Neill addresses Big East expansion by adding St. Louis:
If the Big East was ever going to add one more team, where would Saint Louis rank on the list?
I’ll preface this answer by saying that, in my conversations with commissioner Val Ackerman after UConn was added, I got a very strong sense that there is no appetite for further expansion anytime soon. Eleven teams allow for a full round-robin schedule and also keeps things balanced. Additionally, the league has proven to be more than adequate and competitive just as it is, so there’s no rush to add teams simply to add teams.
So in the very hypothetical of imagining that, for some reason, the Big East has to go bigger, Saint Louis would certainly be a viable option. The school fits the Catholic-school/basketball-only mold of the league, is making steady strides back to prominence and would give the conference more presence in the Midwest, to go along with Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier and Creighton. My guess would be the Billikens would join Dayton and VCU as the most attractive fits.
But again, I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
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That analysis is spot-on. There is little financial incentive for expansion, and it might even dilute the overall product. If there was a great fit in SEC country or Texas, then perhaps. 11 solid programs at great schools is ideal.
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I agree, 11 is a good spot for the big east. But isn't St. Louis exactly what you're describing - a good fit, in sec country?
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ABD
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I agree, 11 is a good spot for the big east. But isn't St. Louis exactly what you're describing - a good fit, in sec country?
I think any new candidate needs to bring tangible value. I’m not sure that’s SLU. Honestly, outside Notre Dame and Gonzaga, I’m not sure anyone brings enough value and is a good fit.
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I think St. Louis is a good fit. Yet, brings zero value.
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I think St. Louis is a good fit. Yet, brings zero value.
Yep, so it won’t happen.
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I think any new candidate needs to bring tangible value. I’m not sure that’s SLU. Honestly, outside Notre Dame and Gonzaga, I’m not sure anyone brings enough value and is a good fit.
Amen. We should only be looking to add national programs. I don't see any way we ever get ND bc I think the ACC will always be a stronger home for their Olympic sports. The Zags make the most sense. There is a point where Fox money could make a lot of travel problems disappear and enough to placate the WCC to let the Zags keep their Olympic sports there. Just a matter of how big of a check Fox (or someone else) is going to write.
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ABD
My man!
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I think St. Louis is a good fit. Yet, brings zero value.
The goal SLU should focus on is being among the best in breed in the A-10 for 8-10 years in a row. That is a formidable challenge, given the competition they face in that league.
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Amen. We should only be looking to add national programs. I don't see any way we ever get ND bc I think the ACC will always be a stronger home for their Olympic sports. The Zags make the most sense. There is a point where Fox money could make a lot of travel problems disappear and enough to placate the WCC to let the Zags keep their Olympic sports there. Just a matter of how big of a check Fox (or someone else) is going to write.
Is Gonzaga a national program after Few leaves?
It’s not just the check that would be needed, but the wear and tear of that travel isn’t conducive either. I remember reading an article that featured Hawaii and their basketball program...the miles logged, classes missed and schoolwork needed to be made up was exhausting to their efforts. By season end they are worn out with travel, starting times, time zone impacts, etc.
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I remember reading an article that featured Hawaii and their basketball program...the miles logged, classes missed and schoolwork needed to be made up was exhausting to their efforts. By season end they are worn out with travel, starting times, time zone impacts, etc.
Maybe we'll get lucky and draw Hawaii in the NCAA tourney. They'll be just as exhausted as we've been in the second half of the game!
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Is Gonzaga a national program after Few leaves?
It’s not just the check that would be needed, but the wear and tear of that travel isn’t conducive either. I remember reading an article that featured Hawaii and their basketball program...the miles logged, classes missed and schoolwork needed to be made up was exhausting to their efforts. By season end they are worn out with travel, starting times, time zone impacts, etc.
Through last season the top 50 programs by wins.
37 Gonzaga 1,668 wins
46 Marquette 1,634 wins
Few was an assistant under Monson, who was hired away by Minnesota.
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I agree, 11 is a good spot for the big east. But isn't St. Louis exactly what you're describing - a good fit, in sec country?
I think Missouri being considered SEC country is a bit of a stretch. They are a bit of an outlier in the SEC. I’d say that’s more Big 12 country.
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Missouri is literally SEC country.
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St. Louis is less than 40 miles south of Cincinnati in latitude. And it's closer to the other Midwestern schools in the Big East than any of them are to the East coast schools:
Indianapolis (240 miles)
Chicago (300 miles)
Cincinnati (350 miles)
Milwaukee (370 miles)
Omaha (430 miles)
For comparison, Cincy to DC is 520 miles. Omaha to New Haven is 1,300 miles.
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I think any new candidate needs to bring tangible value. I’m not sure that’s SLU. Honestly, outside Notre Dame and Gonzaga, I’m not sure anyone brings enough value and is a good fit.
Works for me.
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My man!
I learned from The Best!
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The Zags make the most sense. There is a point where Fox money could make a lot of travel problems disappear and enough to placate the WCC to let the Zags keep their Olympic sports there. Just a matter of how big of a check Fox (or someone else) is going to write.
How about a check big enough for Gonzaga to relocate its entire university to Minneapolis? Or maybe just open a branch/extension there. That's not too much to ask, is it?
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Or, maybe Gonzaga and St. Thomas could trade campuses.
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Through last season the top 50 programs by wins.
37 Gonzaga 1,668 wins
46 Marquette 1,634 wins
Few was an assistant under Monson, who was hired away by Minnesota.
They start their conference slate 18-0 each year which helps tremendously.
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Missouri is literally SEC country.
False, no one in actual SEC territory legitimately considers Missouri SEC country. Geographically they're an outlier and they only joined in 2012.
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False, no one in actual SEC territory legitimately considers Missouri SEC country. Geographically they're an outlier and they only joined in 2012.
They can’t deny the truth. It’s SEC country.
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No city exemplifies the southeast the way Columba, MO does.
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Or, maybe Gonzaga and St. Thomas could trade campuses.
LOL!
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ABD
+1
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I think any new candidate needs to bring tangible value. I’m not sure that’s SLU. Honestly, outside Notre Dame and Gonzaga, I’m not sure anyone brings enough value and is a good fit.
Brew, I'm curious why you did not mention VCU as a school that brings value and is a good fit. They have been very successful despite losing several coaches to stronger conferences. Their current coach looks great to me. When Shaka was considering the Texas job, a Richmond strip club offered free lap dances for Shaka and his staff (no pun intended) if he stayed in Richmond. The fans include just about everyone in the city (like Creighton/Omaha). I lived in Richmond for many years and can tell you that any Gtown concerns about VCU being too close to DC are BS because the driving time is easily 3 hours, often longer, through nightmarish traffic. The "they're only 100 miles to the south of us" is irrelevent.
I'm not saying we need another team in the BE, but if that time comes, why not VCU? The fan support goes well beyond Richmond. It's pretty much state wide so there's that.
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VCU isn’t big enough to divide the pool another share. Plus I think the true round robin is too important to add another team that doesn’t bring revenue.
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Val has positioned the Big East in a really great position: we don't have to expand and can afford to be choosers. A true round robin that added UConn (and that fan base) back into the Big East is huge for revenue (both tickets and current and future tv deal). Now we can wait for the "right" one to come along (just like UConn).
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UConn brings significant name recognition and cachet -- as a founding member of the Big East, as a four-time national champion (1999, 2004, 2011, 2014), and as the most successful women's basketball program in the country.
Not many schools can match that resume. FOX Sports is probably already planning the promotions for the first UConn-Nova, UConn-Georgetown and UConn-Seton Hall matchups during the 2020-21 Big East conference schedule.
The VCU Rams are definitely an intriguing candidate. On the court, they've made the NCAA tournament 10 out of the last 13 seasons -- winning nine games along the way, including a 2011 Final Four appearance. VCU is a large university (30,000+ enrollment) compared to the other Big East schools. The Richmond metro area ranks 44th in the country. (Milwaukee and Omaha rank 39th and 59th, respectively.)
That said, I don't think VCU moves the needle enough to warrant adding a 12th team to the Big East. The case for St. Louis is even less compelling.
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The case for St. Louis is even less compelling.
Disagree. SLU brings a semi-recognizable coach and great recruiter with his program on an upward trend. They have an untapped BE market with a rich recruiting talent base and an entire city of fans. And they fit the BE profile. Would they probably get knocked around for the first 2-3 years? Sure, maybe. But remember they went to SHU last year and won (they play again on 11/17) and beat Butler at home. I think they'd be far from a pushover.
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I agree St Louis would be a good fit for the conference and would most likely thrive once invited. I’m sure this is a source of frustration for their most ardent fans. But...the 20 game round robin schedule is perfect and cannot be tampered with unless ND comes a calling (too big of a national brand to pass up and they are unlikely to do this). As the new iteration of the conference gets older the rivalries just keep getting better and that has everything to do with playing every team home and away yearly. The Big East should not expand for the foreseeable future. It is truly an outstanding basketball conference.
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SLU is can be defined as flashes and potential. (Spoon, Majerus flashes)
1) Preparation meets opportunity.
2) Timing
3) Luck
SLU chose the path of A-10 instead of MVC to be more amongst similar/like schools in urban markets, Northeast, etc....and it was a better decision for them. It isn’t easy though. Nothing against the A-10 but those teams aren’t going to move the needle much there with exceptions. One of the loudest games I’ve attended was VCU at SLU Shaka Smart/Majerus players era. VCU was the hot team, played 94 feet fast. Place was packed and loud. (Think Steve Novak winner over ND or Aaron Gray and Pitt at the BC on a Saturday night loud). The community there likes basketball and comes out when they have something competitive and entertaining to watch. It doesn’t take a lot.
SLU hasn’t been able to string together seasons and eras for long periods. The current President, Admin, board, while not rah rah ideal, is significantly better than their past one.
They have specific boosters now. They have the facilities.
Their hope is Travis Ford can make them a consistent NCAA team. He understands the at times complex and frustrating A-10 from his UMass days. And he has Power 5 experience at Oklahoma St. (Former Mizzou/Kentucky player so he understands the region, both the Rust belt Northeast parts and the small town Southern parts) So it’s a very understandable choice/strategy. He inherited a mess but he has quickly had a nice rebuild thus far.
Obviously Big East named schools would move the needle quite a bit there. Fans there would get excited to see the Marquette, Xavier, Villanova types. etc...and some are very close distances. And the non-football league is a good fit for them.
All SLU has to do is be competitive consistently over time and play against competitive teams, instead of flashes. The interest in hoops is high in the market, a top 20 pop. 3 million market. The prep level continues to produce some quality high major players too.
They are certainly a legit future consideration.
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St. Louis is the 20th largest metro area in the country. Market size: check.
SLU has no football program whatsoever. Basketball focus: check.
The Billikens play in Chaifetz Arena, which opened downtown in 2008 and can accommodate up to 10,000 fans. Facilities, check.
But SLU doesn't offer that much in the way of program history or fan interest -- even in the city of St. Louis. The school has made just 5 NCAA appearances this millennium, and only 10 in its entire history. (MU, by comparison, has made 12 NCAA appearances since 2000 and 33 in its history.) The program's biggest accomplishment is a single trip to the Elite Eight almost 70 years ago. Program history: meh.
Average home attendance last season was 6,890 fans. That's not terrible. But it's only third best in the Atlantic 10. It would be 10th best in the current Big East, only ahead of DePaul. Or to put it another way -- in a market bigger than Milwaukee, one without a pro basketball franchise to compete with, the Billikens draw far less than half as many fans as Marquette. Program interest: yawn.
For FOX Sports, the Big East is a product to sell. If SLU basketball isn't all that compelling for fans in the city, why should basketball fans in New York, Philadelphia or Chicago care?
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Omaha to New Haven is 1,300 miles.
We got Yale? That will certainly help the academic reputation of the conference, though their basketball has been a little lackluster.
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Brew, I'm curious why you did not mention VCU as a school that brings value and is a good fit.
They're fine, but Georgetown covers the DMV market, VCU is a public university, and they don't bring the kind of value a UConn, ND, or Gonzaga does.
If we need to add, they'd be on the shortlist, but I don't see a need to add. If a school isn't a home run, no question about it addition, then I'm not really interested. I'd put them in the SLU, Dayton, Temple, Memphis, Wichita State pile of "if we have to, we'll consider them" schools. But we don't, so I wouldn't.
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They're fine, but Georgetown covers the DMV market, VCU is a public university, and they don't bring the kind of value a UConn, ND, or Gonzaga does.
If we need to add, they'd be on the shortlist, but I don't see a need to add. If a school isn't a home run, no question about it addition, then I'm not really interested. I'd put them in the SLU, Dayton, Temple, Memphis, Wichita State pile of "if we have to, we'll consider them" schools. But we don't, so I wouldn't.
I'm not sure how markets are determined, but I lived in Richmond for a year and NOBODY talked about Georgetown when college sports came up. People talked Va Tech, UVA, VCU and Richmond, and most out of state mentions were for ACC schools in North Carolina like Duke, UNC, etc.
So while network honchos might think Gtown covers that market, the people in Richmond don't seem to know that.
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Perplexed how UMass never gets mentioned. Hard to call ourselves the Big East with no presence in the Boston media market as it’s the big void in our footprint.
Would love to get BC again but barring a major change in the money they make from being part of ACC football it most likely won’t happen (they don’t make a ton on football tickets sales as they play in a small stadium and don’t appear to be sold out too often on TV).
However UMass is independent in football and would be a natural rival to UConn.
All they need is to bring in a crooked young coach again to get a Marcus Camby type of player and they are a hot commodity again and a perfect fit for the Big East.
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St. Louis is the 20th largest metro area in the country. Market size: check.
SLU has no football program whatsoever. Basketball focus: check.
The Billikens play in Chaifetz Arena, which opened downtown in 2008 and can accommodate up to 10,000 fans. Facilities, check.
But SLU doesn't offer that much in the way of program history or fan interest -- even in the city of St. Louis. The school has made just 5 NCAA appearances this millennium, and only 10 in its entire history. (MU, by comparison, has made 12 NCAA appearances since 2000 and 33 in its history.) The program's biggest accomplishment is a single trip to the Elite Eight almost 70 years ago. Program history: meh.
Average home attendance last season was 6,890 fans. That's not terrible. But it's only third best in the Atlantic 10. It would be 10th best in the current Big East, only ahead of DePaul. Or to put it another way -- in a market bigger than Milwaukee, one without a pro basketball franchise to compete with, the Billikens draw far less than half as many fans as Marquette. Program interest: yawn.
For FOX Sports, the Big East is a product to sell. If SLU basketball isn't all that compelling for fans in the city, why should basketball fans in New York, Philadelphia or Chicago care?
Chaifetz is on campus. They used to play downtown in the Blues arena. They drew well back in the mid 90's but many of those tickets were free or heavily discounted. SLU will always be second or even third when it comes to college hoops in STL compared to Mizzou and Illinois. Kansas has a big following there too. So "market size" isn't going to really be advantageous to their cause.
Oh, and that "trip" to the Elite Eight was where there were only 16 teams.
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I'm not sure how markets are determined, but I lived in Richmond for a year and NOBODY talked about Georgetown when college sports came up. People talked Va Tech, UVA, VCU and Richmond, and most out of state mentions were for ACC schools in North Carolina like Duke, UNC, etc.
So while network honchos might think Gtown covers that market, the people in Richmond don't seem to know that.
Richmond is its own market. DMV is the 6th largest market, Richmond is #56. Honestly, a public school with very little basketball history, no ties to the rest of the league, no national footprint, and in a middling media market, I just don't see where they would garner interest.
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Going to 12 only dilutes the league.
Divisions & unbalanced schedules are, IMO, the beginning of the end of a conference.
The only exceptions are Notre Dame & Gonzaga.
And of course certainly you can make a case for other Power 5 schools likes Duke, BC, Wake, etc but i think we all believe those are impossible. Of course I would put ND as nearly impossible. Unless something crazy happened like Fox outbidding NBC for ND football (NBC's deal expires in 2025).
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Going to 12 only dilutes the league.
Divisions & unbalanced schedules are, IMO, the beginning of the end of a conference.
The only exceptions are Notre Dame & Gonzaga.
And of course certainly you can make a case for other Power 5 schools likes Duke, BC, Wake, etc but i think we all believe those are impossible. Of course I would put ND as nearly impossible. Unless something crazy happened like Fox outbidding NBC for ND football.
This exactly. Notre Dame and Gonzaga are exceptions because of the value they bring. I think both are unrealistic. ND's ACC deal likely rules them out and Gonzaga's location makes them impractical. And that's okay, but if the circumstances change, you consider them.
Wake, Kansas, Duke, Boston College, all worth a thought, but would require a tectonic shift in how things are going currently.
Otherwise, there's no one that brings enough value.
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We got Yale? That will certainly help the academic reputation of the conference, though their basketball has been a little lackluster.
LOL -- I meant Storrs, not New Haven.
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Perplexed how UMass never gets mentioned. Hard to call ourselves the Big East with no presence in the Boston media market as it’s the big void in our footprint.
However UMass is independent in football and would be a natural rival to UConn.
All they need is to bring in a crooked young coach again to get a Marcus Camby type of player and they are a hot commodity again and a perfect fit for the Big East.
Lived my whole life out here other than my years at MU and as many on this board have said, Boston is not a college market and never will be. Even when good, UMASS and BC barely register and barely garner attention out here. UMass would never be considered for the Big East.
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St. Louis is the 20th largest metro area in the country. Market size: check.
SLU has no football program whatsoever. Basketball focus: check.
The Billikens play in Chaifetz Arena, which opened downtown in 2008 and can accommodate up to 10,000 fans. Facilities, check.
But SLU doesn't offer that much in the way of program history or fan interest -- even in the city of St. Louis. The school has made just 5 NCAA appearances this millennium, and only 10 in its entire history. (MU, by comparison, has made 12 NCAA appearances since 2000 and 33 in its history.) The program's biggest accomplishment is a single trip to the Elite Eight almost 70 years ago. Program history: meh.
Average home attendance last season was 6,890 fans. That's not terrible. But it's only third best in the Atlantic 10. It would be 10th best in the current Big East, only ahead of DePaul. Or to put it another way -- in a market bigger than Milwaukee, one without a pro basketball franchise to compete with, the Billikens draw far less than half as many fans as Marquette. Program interest: yawn.
For FOX Sports, the Big East is a product to sell. If SLU basketball isn't all that compelling for fans in the city, why should basketball fans in New York, Philadelphia or Chicago care?
Two things:
1) SLU fans
2) Local fan/community interest.
Local fan interest/support. SLU plus the community of basketball fans but not SLU alums etc...those are the two targets of fans. SLU used to get 17,000 top 25 attendance team...for Spoon Ball. 10,000 (higher priced tix) for Majerus era. That is the SLU support. NIT level teams under Rich Grawer. SLU gets great walk up support in the community when they are competitive. The community itself has a good appetite for hoops.
Community hoops interest: There have been whispers and close calls for an NBA team at different times as they have had in the past. They frequently host either NCAA Regionals in the dome or first two rounds at either the dome or Enterprise Center. (including 2020) They hosted the 2005 Final Four for men. They have also hosted a recent memory women’s final four. The NBA has played frequent pre-season games there. They recently hosted the SEC tourney there. Mizzou/Illinois game sells out frequently and quickly annually. So from a community standpoint, basketball is well supported with high interest. Mizzou won’t schedule SLU. (Quinn Snyder is the only one who would in recent memory) but when they did play 26,000 people showed up in bad weather.
So again, interest immediately jumps whenever the competition level is higher and with name brand teams. All one has to look to were the numbers when SLU and Marquette played in a few leagues together. Gotta give the fans and community a decent (not even great) product, and give them competitive teams in competitive leagues. Just a few years back the A-10 was getting half a dozen NCAA teams there. Interest was there. Last year the A-10 was down.
It doesn’t make any sense to compare recent A-10 vs would be Big East. You don’t think SLU would have great fan interest if they had a competitive team in the old Big East, (Louisville, Syracuse, ND, etc) or even the new one now? That wouldn’t be the case at all there. Comparing that to playing Fordham or the Bonnies etc....?
SLU needs to continue to have sustained on court success year in and year out instead of spurts.
They built a $100 million dollar Arena. (It is one of the busiest in the country from sports to concerts to Olympics to ice shows etc...) They have more boosters with more $.
SLU would be a lot more like a Xavier or Creighton in the right setting than say a DePaul.
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Big East has set itself up to by a predator instead of prey in the conference realignment game. No need to rush into anything at this point. You sit back and watch how things play out in the in next few years. I'm not sure 5 power football conferences is sustainable in the future, I think eventually one of them blinks and gets divided up among the other 4. You never know what could happen in a situation like that.
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Chaifetz is on campus. They used to play downtown in the Blues arena. They drew well back in the mid 90's but many of those tickets were free or heavily discounted. SLU will always be second or even third when it comes to college hoops in STL compared to Mizzou and Illinois. Kansas has a big following there too. So "market size" isn't going to really be advantageous to their cause.
Mizzou and Illinois hoops aren't that heavily followed in the St. Louis area. Stations give them a little airtime, mostly because they're the "nearby" power-conference schools that have some alumni in the area. I wouldn't even put it on the level of UW-Madison fans in Milwaukee. Most people there are not Kansas fans--natural Mizzou rival. Adding SLU to the BE still adds another revenue market in an area that wants basketball, but doesn't have a huge reason to follow it.
Would I rather the BE add a Gonzaga or ND? Sure. But Gonzaga most likely isn't feasible and I'd be surprised to see ND come back. SLU is the next best option.
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Chaifetz is on campus. They used to play downtown in the Blues arena. They drew well back in the mid 90's but many of those tickets were free or heavily discounted. SLU will always be second or even third when it comes to college hoops in STL compared to Mizzou and Illinois. Kansas has a big following there too. So "market size" isn't going to really be advantageous to their cause.
Oh, and that "trip" to the Elite Eight was where there were only 16 teams.
This goes with any state school vs urban school. Wisconsin will always have more fans than Marquette. (That doesn’t mean Marquette cannot carve out its place too) Ohio St. will always have more fans than Xavier. (It doesn’t mean Xavier can’t carve out its place too) Nebraska has not been frequently good which helps Creighton.
It’s about being competitive on the court and sustaining that over time. If they can do that, they will have plenty of interest and do quite well. That’s really what it’s about.
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Mizzou and Illinois hoops aren't that heavily followed in the St. Louis area. Stations give them a little airtime, mostly because they're the "nearby" power-conference schools that have some alumni in the area. I wouldn't even put it on the level of UW-Madison fans in Milwaukee. Most people there are not Kansas fans--natural Mizzou rival. Adding SLU to the BE still adds another revenue market in an area that wants basketball, but doesn't have a huge reason to follow it.
Would I rather the BE add a Gonzaga or ND? Sure. But Gonzaga most likely isn't feasible and I'd be surprised to see ND come back. SLU is the next best option.
This is it pretty much right here. Everyone wants a finished product. The current Big East is not likely to get a finished product.
The notion that St. Louis is a KU hoops market is odd. You may as well call it a big Kentucky market too. Whenever Kentucky gets to play NCAA games in St. Louis, it is a sea of blue just like many other places, because, it’s Kentucky. And it isn’t far away. KU will draw well if their NCAA’s are played there. But day to day, no. KU and Mizzou split some of the KC market but not St. Louis. It is located much closer to KC than Mizzou. One of Mizzou’s challenges is that it is not a quick 40 minute ride like KC to Lawrence. It also not quick from St. Louis. But they are the state school and they get first coverage in St. Louis. They will be 2nd to SLU whenever SLU is good. This is no different in Milwaukee.
Mizzou will lead all local sports stuff just like Wisconsin does in Milwaukee, especially if they are good or decent. So, right now as we speak, first highlights go to Mizzou football. Next comes top teams/games, also SEC football games, then maybe Illinois football later in the sports. If SLU is ever very good at hoops, it can and does lead the college part of the sportscast.
If SLU is good, many local media will go and cover. If they are not, just a few.
Someone earlier mentioned the Big 12 vs SEC. The cities, such as Metro St. Louis strongly prefers SEC to Big 12. Mizzou is a bit unique in that it has a variety of fan bases. The urban metros of St. Louis and KC are very different than other parts of the state.
As for SLU, up until now they have not been a program that has gone long stretches with sustained success like a Gonzaga in WCC or Creighton in MVC. They have shown flashes of what they could be. And that is why they are often in the discussion. They are flashes with potential to this point.
They are probably the safest bet of any future league candidate if you can’t get a higher profile team such as ND OR Gonzaga (neither of which are likely to happen especially ND)
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This is it pretty much right here. Everyone wants a finished product. The current Big East is not likely to get a finished product.
I don't think that's the case at all. Certainly not for me. I don't want any product. We don't need anyone else. 11 teams, 20-game schedule, there's no need whatsoever to add to that. The only way we consider anyone is if they are an undeniable must-add (Gonzaga, ND) or the landscape has changed so much that 11 teams is no longer viable. I don't see the latter happening, so VCU, SLU, Dayton, all the other "whatabout" candidates, forget them. I just don't think they add any real value.
It's must-add or nothing for me.
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I don't think that's the case at all. Certainly not for me. I don't want any product. We don't need anyone else. 11 teams, 20-game schedule, there's no need whatsoever to add to that. The only way we consider anyone is if they are an undeniable must-add (Gonzaga, ND) or the landscape has changed so much that 11 teams is no longer viable. I don't see the latter happening, so VCU, SLU, Dayton, all the other "whatabout" candidates, forget them. I just don't think they add any real value.
It's must-add or nothing for me.
1) I was speaking with reference to “if” the Big East added a team(s)...that of course everyone would prefer a finished product. I don’t see a knock your socks off choice out there that would choose the Big East. I didn’t really comment either way about not adding a team. To this point not adding an additional team has been the move. (until UConn happened of course)
2) I think the 3 programs you just mentioned are very different from one another. And what I did say was at this time of those choices, SLU would be the safest add.
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Big East has set itself up to by a predator instead of prey in the conference realignment game. No need to rush into anything at this point. You sit back and watch how things play out in the in next few years. I'm not sure 5 power football conferences is sustainable in the future, I think eventually one of them blinks and gets divided up among the other 4. You never know what could happen in a situation like that.
That’s the inevitable end game. I would have pegged the ACC when rumors were circulating Diamond Jim Delany was sniffing around Georgia Tech, UNC, Duke and Virginia.
Now? I’m not sure. The seemingly logical loser is the Pac-12 given their recent ineptitude in hoops and football and failing TV deal. My hunch is the Big Ten takes another run at Texas and Oklahoma and then all hell breaks loose if they jump
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We got Yale? That will certainly help the academic reputation of the conference, though their basketball has been a little lackluster.
Yale has been to the NCAAs in 2016 & 2019 including advancing to the second round in 2016.
Must have meant University of New Haven who plans to upgrade to Div 1 like St. Thomas.
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They're fine, but Georgetown covers the DMV market, VCU is a public university, and they don't bring the kind of value a UConn, ND, or Gonzaga does.
If we need to add, they'd be on the shortlist, but I don't see a need to add. If a school isn't a home run, no question about it addition, then I'm not really interested. I'd put them in the SLU, Dayton, Temple, Memphis, Wichita State pile of "if we have to, we'll consider them" schools. But we don't, so I wouldn't.
Nielsen DMA Rankings 2019
https://mediatracks.com/resources/nielsen-dma-rankings-2019/
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I'm not sure how markets are determined, but I lived in Richmond for a year and NOBODY talked about Georgetown when college sports came up. People talked Va Tech, UVA, VCU and Richmond, and most out of state mentions were for ACC schools in North Carolina like Duke, UNC, etc.
So while network honchos might think Gtown covers that market, the people in Richmond don't seem to know that.
You nailed it. 22 years in Richmond for me + another 16 in the western part of the state. The DC area and the rest of Virginia might as well be 1000 miles apart. And they HATE each other. I get why many here do not want VCU (I do not want anybody else added right now and maybe not for a very long time) but hey- at least the local Richmond community is behind the team. Did a Milwaukee area strip joint offer Buzz a free lap dance if he stayed in Milwaukee? That's the offer Shaka had in Richmond if he passed on the Texas job. Considering the way things have worked out for him (except financially), he should have taken the free lap dance.
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That’s the inevitable end game. I would have pegged the ACC when rumors were circulating Diamond Jim Delany was sniffing around Georgia Tech, UNC, Duke and Virginia.
Now? I’m not sure. The seemingly logical loser is the Pac-12 given their recent ineptitude in hoops and football and failing TV deal. My hunch is the Big Ten takes another run at Texas and Oklahoma and then all hell breaks loose if they jump
That's what I think as well. PAC 12 should be the loser based on performance...but I don't think they will be because they are geographically insulated. The SEC and B1G have all the $$$ so they are safe. It's gotta be the ACC or the Big 12 (or nobody) and I think the B12 blinks first.
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From today's New Haven Register.
https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/nhregister/article/UConn-s-return-raises-some-concerns-with-Big-14509966.php?sid=5baaacf72ddf9c545d737065&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CT_NHR_Insider#photo-18413198
UConn’s return raises some concerns with Big East basketball coaches
By David Borges Oct. 10, 2019 Updated: Oct. 10, 2019 6:13 p.m.
NEW YORK — Jay Wright loves the move. Patrick Ewing doesn’t seem to care too much either way.
Kevin Willard seems to approve ... sort of. Ed Cooley? Let’s just say he’s not necessarily rolling out a red carpet from Providence to Storrs for UConn to return to the Big East Conference.
Back in June, the presidents of the 10 current Big East schools voted unanimously to admit UConn back into the league. But if the vote had been up to the league’s coaches, there might not have been such a mandate. That seemed to be the general tenor at Thursday’s Big East Media Day at Madison Square Garden.
With two of the past four national championships (both won by Wright at Villanova) under its belt, the Big East didn’t necessarily need UConn back. Still, despite three straight losing seasons, the Huskies, with four national titles in the past 20 years, will certainly bring added sizzle when it rejoins the conference next season.
However, UConn’s return, after seven years in the American Athletic Conference, could make things tougher for certain league schools on the recruiting trail. Particularly programs like Providence, Seton Hall and St. John’s — East Coast schools who are already recruiting against the Huskies.
Now, UConn can sell the Big East as part of its recruiting pitch.
“I can’t tell recruits, ‘You know what it’s like to play at Tulane and East Carolina and those places?,’ ” 10th-year Seton Hall coach Kevin Willard said, seemingly half-jokingly. “It doesn’t work anymore. To be honest, it didn’t matter what conference they’re in. They always had great history in this building, in this area. Kemba Walker’s a New York City guard. It adds a different dynamic and layer to the recruiting thing, but they were always gonna be a tough beat.”
The Huskies’ first Class of 2020 commit, national top-75 guard Andre Jackson, told Hearst Connecticut Media last week that UConn’s return to the Big East definitely helped his decision.
“I think it’s gonna be a bear to deal with,” said Cooley, entering his ninth year as Providence’s head coach. “They have a very good staff there, and Danny (Hurley) is one of the better coaches in the country. Regionally, with Providence College and Seton Hall, in particular, in the Big East — with a little bit of St. John’s — we’re gonna have our hands full when it comes to competing against them.”
In fact, Cooley seemed to think the Big East did UConn a favor by taking it back in.
“I think we gave Connecticut new life,” he said. “We gave their fan base new life. They finally came to the conclusion that they are a basketball-centric school. They poured all their money in football, and in my opinion, it was going into a hole.”
“When you’ve become a national brand in one sport and try to parlay into something it isn’t,” Cooley added, “shame on you for making the decision upfront.”
While Ewing was leading Georgetown to three national championship game appearances in four years in the early 1980s and dominating the center position as it hasn’t been since, UConn was still a Big East doormat. The Huskies didn’t become a national powerhouse until nearly a decade after Ewing had graduated.
Now in his third year as Georgetown’s head coach, Ewing didn’t seem too focused on UConn’s return to the league.
“Thats a long way away,” he said. “Right now, I’m worried about this year.”
“It definitely helps the league,” he added. “They can sell the Big East, but all the other teams in the Big East can sell their conference. It is what it is. They’re here, they’re here to stay, and it’s our job as coaches to recruit and try to get the best players we can for our programs. And the players, it’s their job to compete and play against whoever’s there.”
Willard, of course, coaches Hurley’s alma mater and sits smack dab in the UConn coach’s recruiting wheelhouse of northern New Jersey. He seemed to recognize that, while UConn’s return is overall good for the league, it might not be the best for Seton Hall.
“No one asked me, but I would not have given them the vote,” he said, again seemingly half-jokinly. “I would have told them to stay away. Just because I know what type of job Danny’s gonna do. I know what a great program it is. We’re now going to a 20-game schedule in this league, so it’s gonna make the conference better and harder. But I think overall, everyone’s excited to bring them back.”
Then there’s Wright, the dean of Big East coaches and owner of those two national championship rings. Is he worried that the Huskies can steal his program’s thunder as the undisputed kings of the Big East?
Not at all.
“I think everything’s positive, I really do,” said Wright, who’s entering his 19th season as Villanova’s head coach. “I don’t think we would have unanimously supported their entrance if it wasn’t all positive. I look back to the years when we went to 16 (teams) and we all thought, ‘Oh no, we’re gonna eat each other up.’ And what it really did was make us all better. We got 11 teams in the tournament (in 2011).”
Wright noted that, back in the late 1980s — before he was hired as a Villanova assistant — players that wanted to go to then-powerhouses Georgetown and Syracuse often wound up at Villanova when there simply wasn’t enough room. They simply wanted to play in the Big East.
He believes something similar will happen now.
“I think it enhances the brand,” he said. “In recruiting, Connecticut will get involved with all the guys we’re all involved with, and we all compete against each other. It’s just gonna increase the pool.”
Wright added: “There will be kids growing up in Connecticut, following the Big East, and they might wind up playing at Georgetown. That’s what happened in the old Big East, and I think the same thing’s gonna happen.”
RIM RATTLINGS
Georgetown sophomore point guard James Akinjo had committed to UConn in the fall of 2017, but de-committed after Kevin Ollie was fired in March, 2018. Hurley and his staff tried to re-recruit him, but Ewing had already swooped in.
“Coach Pat made it a real easy decision,” he said. “After I de-committed from UConn, he showed the most interest in me and made sure I felt really at home with Georgetown.”
In fact, Ewing was on a flight to the West Coast when he learned that Akinjo had been released from his national letter of intent. He had the flight diverted so that he could fly straight to Akinjo’s home town of Oakland.
“He wanted to be on the East Coast,” said Ewing, “and we needed a point guard.”
St. John’s Mustapha Heron, who grew up in West Haven and Waterbury, was named to the preseason All-Big East Second Team.
“It’s an honor to have your name mentioned,” he said. “We’ve got great players in this conference. I’m definitely shooting for first team, so just gotta go out every night, play hard and try to win games.”
Heron transferred from Auburn to St. John’s last season and got an NCAA waiver to play right away. He said he considered tranferring to UConn, but the Huskies had run out of scholarships at the time.
Bridgeport’s Quincy McKnight enters his senior year at Seton Hall after averaging 8.9 points per game last season. McKnight played his first two seasons at Sacred Heart, where he averaged 18.9 points per game as a sophomore.
“I thought he had a phenomenal year last year,” Willard said. “He was our backbone on the defensive end, he did a great job in leadership. But I think everyone’s gonna see, almost what he was at Sacred Heart, a little more of a scorer. Just because he’s a little more confident in what he can do, a little more confident in what we need him to do. And I think transfers, the second year after they sit out, they always have a good year.”
Bloomfield’s Tyrique Jones, a senior at Xavier, could face his hometown school this season in the Charleston Classic. UConn would play Xavier if both teams win (or lose) their first games of the tournament.
“That would be kind of cool,” said Jones. “I love UConn basketball. I always wanted to go to UConn, but the opportunity at Xavier presented itself and I feel like I made the right decision. Kinda bummed that next year we get to play at UConn, but I’m just happy that UConn is back in the Big East. It’s a great conference.”
david.borges@hearstmediact.com
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However, UConn’s return, after seven years in the American Athletic Conference, could make things tougher for certain league schools on the recruiting trail. Particularly programs like Providence, Seton Hall and St. John’s — East Coast schools who are already recruiting against the Huskies.
Now, UConn can sell the Big East as part of its recruiting pitch.
“I can’t tell recruits, ‘You know what it’s like to play at Tulane and East Carolina and those places?,’ ” 10th-year Seton Hall coach Kevin Willard said, seemingly half-jokingly. “It doesn’t work anymore. To be honest, it didn’t matter what conference they’re in. They always had great history in this building, in this area. Kemba Walker’s a New York City guard. It adds a different dynamic and layer to the recruiting thing, but they were always gonna be a tough beat.”
I found this part pretty eye-opening. But it shouldn't have been a surprise. UConn, when they are good, sucks up all of the air in the lower-New-England room. Providence and Seton Hall are right to be petrified of losing recruits to the Huskies, now that they are back in the Big East. It's really no surprise that the Pirates and Friars thrived while UConn languished in AAC purgatory, even though neither was particularly good for the rest of UConn's great run in the 90s and 2000s
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I thinking Cooley’s comments make him look a little silly. It’s not like Providence has been some powerhouse recently.
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Jesus Christ Cooley and Willard. I'm sure you preach to your players about overcoming adversity, and then the first thing you do is whine when a school is added whom everybody believes is good for the conference? Suck it up and grow a pair.
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Jesus Christ Cooley and Willard. I'm sure you preach to your players about overcoming adversity, and then the first thing you do is whine when a school is added whom everybody believes is good for the conference? Suck it up and grow a pair.
I fail to see how any of this is "whining" and not stating facts:
“I think it’s gonna be a bear to deal with,” said Cooley, entering his ninth year as Providence’s head coach. “They have a very good staff there, and Danny (Hurley) is one of the better coaches in the country. Regionally, with Providence College and Seton Hall, in particular, in the Big East — with a little bit of St. John’s — we’re gonna have our hands full when it comes to competing against them.”
In fact, Cooley seemed to think the Big East did UConn a favor by taking it back in.
“I think we gave Connecticut new life,” he said. “We gave their fan base new life. They finally came to the conclusion that they are a basketball-centric school. They poured all their money in football, and in my opinion, it was going into a hole.”
“When you’ve become a national brand in one sport and try to parlay into something it isn’t,” Cooley added, “shame on you for making the decision upfront.”
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Dude, I'm in preseason mode here. Gotta get my edge.
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I just got an inspiration. Let's get Gonzaga for men's basketball only, and have DePaul go independent for men's basketball only.
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I just got an inspiration. Let's get Gonzaga for men's basketball only, and have DePaul go independent for men's basketball only.
I like that...even better, instead of cashing NCAA MBB shares that they never once contributed to in their time in the BE, they waive them and those are redistributed to the other nine members.
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At its prime (2005-2013), the Big East was THE elite men's basketball conference in the country. With UConn in tow, and with the success that Villanova has had (along with nine of ten teams making the tournament since the reorganization, the league still is a top basketball conference nationally. The position where the league can improve upon the prime version is eliminating the continued bottom feeders the league had annually. No more Rutgers. No more USF. No more DePaul (in its former form). Even Seton Hall and Providence were punching bags when the league had 16 members.
To take the next step, the Big East needs ALL of its members pushing in the right direction and play at a competitive level. UConn can definitely add to that. With it make recruiting in the Northeast tougher? Absolutely. But it will also attract more high-level recruits from that portion of the country and elsewhere, not to mention adding more attendance to our league's inventory (and conference tournament) and our viewership.
The Big East can stand pat at 11 more the foreseeable future. There are no other present options that can add value like UConn can. In 5-10 years, and if they manage some success on the court, the league can look at VCU, SLU and Dayton if the Fox determines that they would add financial value to our package.
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At its prime (2005-2013), the Big East was THE elite men's basketball conference in the country. With UConn in tow, and with the success that Villanova has had (along with nine of ten teams making the tournament since the reorganization, the league still is a top basketball conference nationally. The position where the league can improve upon the prime version is eliminating the continued bottom feeders the league had annually. No more Rutgers. No more USF. No more DePaul (in its former form). Even Seton Hall and Providence were punching bags when the league had 16 members.
To take the next step, the Big East needs ALL of its members pushing in the right direction and play at a competitive level. UConn can definitely add to that. With it make recruiting in the Northeast tougher? Absolutely. But it will also attract more high-level recruits from that portion of the country and elsewhere, not to mention adding more attendance to our league's inventory (and conference tournament) and our viewership.
The Big East can stand pat at 11 more the foreseeable future. There are no other present options that can add value like UConn can. In 5-10 years, and if they manage some success on the court, the league can look at VCU, SLU and Dayton if the Fox determines that they would add financial value to our package.
Cincy has some potential as well. Notre Dame should be in the Big East and would be if it was 1960's. VCU always felt like an A10 program to me but I'd take them. Also: will take any team that doesn't sport blue in their team colors. Need some diversity here in Big East aka Blue Man Group.
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Cincy has some potential as well. Notre Dame should be in the Big East and would be if it was 1960's. VCU always felt like an A10 program to me but I'd take them. Also: will take any team that doesn't sport blue in their team colors. Need some diversity here in Big East aka Blue Man Group.
We don’t need any other schools right now
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We don’t need any other schools right now
Notre Dame is the only other school that should be considered, barring some really shocking football decisions from Duke or Kansas, or possibly a major relocation from Gonzaga. (None of which are happening)
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Notre Dame is the only other school that should be considered, barring some really shocking football decisions from Duke or Kansas, or possibly a major relocation from Gonzaga. (None of which are happening)
We don't need any new schools right now. 11 is the perfect number for a 20 game conference schedule. Everyone is competitive year in and year out.
That said...can you imagine the 2020 Big East with this year's Dayton? Wow.
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Dayton sucks
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While it is virtually a guarantee that the BE will stand pat at 11 moving forward, there is one major potential benefit to the league to consider expansion to twelve members: the elimination of the round robin.
Without question, the RR has been an asset. It helped assimilate Butler, Creighton and Xavier quickly and efficiently under the BE brand. It guarantees home/home with every other member (good for fan purposes). It helps immensely when the league does well OOC. However....
...the league does, in a way, cannibalize itself in conference play where the BE still gets a high number of bids (which will increase with UConn), but the seeds are not always as high. Many of our seeds get lumped in the dreaded 6-10 range, which limit the probability of multiple deep tournament runs. By expanding by one, the RR would need to get eliminated, and allow for creative conference scheduling where you can schedule home/home with expected top teams and allow the bottom and middle to play each other more. We would also get more games at MSG for the tournament to sell to Fox (in addition to more league games).
It will be interesting to see the long term effects of the 20 game conference schedule, especially in an 11 team format. The BE has had the bids in the tournament. I’d like to see better seeds for more of the teams to get multiple teams deep.
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Great points made by GoldenWarrior above. The round robin can be fun, but it has its downsides as well.
Another benefit to potential expansion is growing the geographic area of interest, which can grow the fan base, increase revenues, and provide additional recruiting pipelines. I see a lot of upside in conference expansion, but there is a possibility of degrading the brand with the wrong addition(s). I love that we'll have UConn back soon, and I think some additional new blood could be exciting.
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The BE members have stated pretty clearly they want to keep the round robin.
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Aside: In his most recent podcast, Andy Katz rated the BE over the B1G as the current best conference. ACC # 5 and SEC # 6.
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Notre Dame is the only other school that should be considered, barring some really shocking football decisions from Duke or Kansas, or possibly a major relocation from Gonzaga. (None of which are happening)
Agree with this 100%.
A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.
I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.
I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.
Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...
In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.
Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.
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Agree with this 100%.
A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.
I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.
I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.
Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...
In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.
Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.
Agreed. I think the round robin is one of the best things about the BigEast, and I'd hate to see them sacrifice that -- especially for the likes of Dayton. If they are going to expand and lose the round robin, it absolutely has to be an absolutely too-good-to-pass-up addition. In the current landscape, I just don't see anyone. Notre Dame would fit the bill if they cut ties with the ACC, but I honestly think the only move that would ever make sense for ND would be the Big10.
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The round robin is a tremendous asset for The Big East. Single most important thing to building our conference is the development of rivalries and the personalities of the coaches and recognition of the players. The round robin very effectively does that . The original Big East was such a great conference because it had all three of these factors.
In order to get high seeds, the teams in the conference have to be relevant on an absolute basis nationally. That means having a strong non conference schedule and then winning some of the key games.
Big 12 is also round robin and they are consistently putting a very high percentage of teams in the tournament. Cannibalization also forces every team in the conference to improve or get left behind. As we have seen this year in the Big East the laggards of recent years have all improved.
As far as expansion goes, we do not need any more teams. This conference is a bear as it is. Next year will get even tougher with the addition of U Conn. What we need is for a second program to get to the level of where Villanova is.
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Aside: In his most recent podcast, Andy Katz rated the BE over the B1G as the current best conference. ACC # 5 and SEC # 6.
That's impressive coming from Mr. Big 10 himself.
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Maybe Patrick Ewing can make a stride and take Gtown up another level. If DePaul could get their young talent in line, they'd improve significantly as well. I watched DePaul and they have some horses, but they're highly disorganized.
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Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.
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The round robin is a tremendous asset for The Big East. Single most important thing to building our conference is the development of rivalries and the personalities of the coaches and recognition of the players. The round robin very effectively does that . The original Big East was such a great conference because it had all three of these factors.
In order to get high seeds, the teams in the conference have to be relevant on an absolute basis nationally. That means having a strong non conference schedule and then winning some of the key games.
Big 12 is also round robin and they are consistently putting a very high percentage of teams in the tournament. Cannibalization also forces every team in the conference to improve or get left behind. As we have seen this year in the Big East the laggards of recent years have all improved.
As far as expansion goes, we do not need any more teams. This conference is a bear as it is. Next year will get even tougher with the addition of U Conn. What we need is for a second program to get to the level of where Villanova is.
One of your best posts ever.
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Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.
Completely forgot about Texas. Hard to believe the Longhorn Network launched over 8 years ago now.
Was supposed to be the death of the Big 12 yet there they still are...
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Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.
Although Chicos would disagree, I'm sure there are many people sweating about how much they've invested into the rights and/or distribution of college sports given the barbell of Millennials and Boomers cutting the cord (or pulling the plug... whatever euphemism you wish to insert). Frankly, the only sustainable sports rights model right now is the Big East.
Hell, I'd go so far to speculate that the AAC and A10 have more sustainable rights deals than the ACC, B?G and P12 (simply on the basis that pricing is inline with quality once UCONN leaves). It may take 10-15 years to play out, but B?G will be the first to fall*, followed closely by the other two.
SEC and B12** will live on for a little while longer because while Bubba says it is the gun you can pry from his cold, dead hands, the truth is that he'd happily give Bloomy every weapon he owns, even his Super Soakers, just to keep his pornbox cable on... unfortunately, B?G foosball and hoops doesn't even have a tenth of the draw in the Midwest/East Coast as fast cars going in circles does in the South.
* "fall" as in a decimation of the revenues being delivered to the schools for sports rights, not that the conferences are going out of business.
** By design, the future of the B12 depends entirely on what Texas does to share/pillage TV revenues.
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Agree with this 100%.
A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.
I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.
I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.
Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...
In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.
Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.
Some push back:
In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).
In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).
In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's.
We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting. I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom. How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year? Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4). Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run? Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt. I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
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Only problem i have with the round robin is playing every team twice is h b arder. Throw out the SOS or the NET playing team a second time regardless of their ranking is significantly harder due to familiarity. Their is nothing built into Kenpom or the NET to account for this and this hurts the BE.
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Some push back:
In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).
In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).
In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's.
We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting. I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom. How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year? Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4). Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run? Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt. I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
Reasonable points. Thanks for the discussion.
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Only problem i have with the round robin is playing every team twice is h b arder. Throw out the SOS or the NET playing team a second time regardless of their ranking is significantly harder due to familiarity. Their is nothing built into Kenpom or the NET to account for this and this hurts the BE.
I don't buy this. Both teams are playing each other for the second time, so any advantage for knowing how to play the opponent applies to both teams. One team has to win and one team has to lose. I think the home team effect is the major bias leading to splits in round robin play.
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I don't buy this. Both teams are playing each other for the second time, so any advantage for knowing how to play the opponent applies to both teams. One team has to win and one team has to lose. I think the home team effect is the major bias leading to splits in round robin play.
Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?
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Some push back:
In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).
In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).
In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's.
We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting. I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom. How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year? Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4). Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run? Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt. I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
Couldn't it be that the teams that got those seeds got them because that is about how good they were? I think our seeds have been reasonable based on the quality of our teams, which besides Villanova and some other team every year is generally very good but not great. Not sure how eliminating the round robin would help, particularly since it could hurt depending on which teams you face twice.
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Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?
I honestly don't think it matters. Would care much more about the match-ups than the rematch angle.
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Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?
It’s possible the better team widens the gap with better coaching and players. I would think it’s easier for the worse team to pull out some surprise tactic and win once than if there was already some data on a game earlier in the year.
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Last year, out first meeting with DePaul was in Milwaukee, and despite winning by 10, it was a 2 possessions game with 90 seconds to go. Our second meeting with DePaul was in Chicago, and we won by 19, and the lead was in double digits the entire second half.
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I hope it stays at 11.
However, I could see an east/west division if a ND or UD or Zags are added.
West—MU Creighton Butler DePaul X and future team.
East—PC George S Hall Nova STJ UConn.
H/H within division with crossover games with east.
Again, hope it stays as is.
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Last year, out first meeting with DePaul was in Milwaukee, and despite winning by 10, it was a 2 possessions game with 90 seconds to go. Our second meeting with DePaul was in Chicago, and we won by 19, and the lead was in double digits the entire second half.
Did DU have more of their fans in FF?
As an aside, with the BET, some teams have to play each other up to three times depending on their draw. Brutal.
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Some push back:
In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).
In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).
In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's.
We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting. I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom. How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year? Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4). Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run? Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt. I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
If you listen to the interview that is done each year with the head of the NCAA Selection committee, they consistently emphasize strength of schedule and rewarding teams that play a hard schedule and win some of the games. For example, It is why Michigan State consistently gets high seeds, even though they may not always have the best record. They play top level teams in non conference and then go through the gauntlet of their own conference.
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The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
No. You can increase the seeds by playing a stronger non-con schedule. Not only by playing more top teams, but by playing less sub-200 teams.
Don't f*ck with the round robin schedule.
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Adding a 12th team and eliminating the possibility of the round robin schedule wouldn't impact scheduling much and probably wouldn't have much of an impact of SOS either. But it could grow the presence of the league into new areas, which has a number of benefits.
I think a lot of the talk about who could be added comes off as a little snobby now that we're full cemented as a power conference contender too. Before MU joined the Big East, I'm sure fans of established programs like Georgetown and UConn questioned whether we would improve the caliber of their conference. And now look where we are. I know I was a little worried about the league when we had to rely on the additions of Creighton and Butler, former mid-major darlings. And now these are teams that are regularly competing in the top half of the league.
Things change over time, and given the right scenario, I'm sure there are plenty of current mid-majors that could thrive in the Big East. Maybe 11 will be fine permanently. But there are realistic options to add more schools.
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Adding a 12th team and eliminating the possibility of the round robin schedule wouldn't impact scheduling much and probably wouldn't have much of an impact of SOS either. But it could grow the presence of the league into new areas, which has a number of benefits.
I think a lot of the talk about who could be added comes off as a little snobby now that we're full cemented as a power conference contender too. Before MU joined the Big East, I'm sure fans of established programs like Georgetown and UConn questioned whether we would improve the caliber of their conference. And now look where we are. I know I was a little worried about the league when we had to rely on the additions of Creighton and Butler, former mid-major darlings. And now these are teams that are regularly competing in the top half of the league.
Things change over time, and given the right scenario, I'm sure there are plenty of current mid-majors that could thrive in the Big East. Maybe 11 will be fine permanently. But there are realistic options to add more schools.
I wouldn't preclude adding a 12th team, but the conference needs to be exceptionally choosy and, yes, snobby. They need to ensure that the existing members benefit at least as much from the addition as the program being added. If not, there's no point.
As for MU to the Big East, remember the invite came just months after a Final Four appearance, with a guy considered an up-and-comer at the helm, with the construction of a $31 million athletics facility underway and with the addition of a top 40 media market. I'm sure some in the old BE may have turned up their noses, but Marquette actually had a lot to offer.
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Some push back:
In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).
In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).
In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's.
We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting. I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom. How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year? Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4). Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run? Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin.
The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt. I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
Exactly. Without a bunch of bottom-feeders, it is going to be more challenging for the BE than it is for the ACC (et al) to earn multiple protected seeds (i.e. #1-4) in any given year. The reason is simple: there aren't enough marbles to go around....
Benny's Marbles
Hearkening back to a much earlier post of mine, consider that each season starts with every team having a finite number of marbles... these marbles represent the collective metrics the selection committee uses to determine the Field of 68. Because of this, there is a level of bias involved, and so some teams (i.e. Duke, UNC, UK, KU, etc.) will start out the season with a few more marbles on average while most of the low-majors start out with a few less than average. Nevertheless, the winning team takes a number of the losing team's marbles depending on the quality of the win, and at the end of the season, the 36 teams with the most marbles on Selection Sunday get an at-large bid.
The #1 takeaway here is that by the time conference play rolls around, apart from a "bracket-buster" type game, marbles are only changing hands only within the respective conferences. So even if half your conference might otherwise be March-worthy, if your conference goes into January with half the marbles of the other conferences, there's just not going to be enough marbles to go around to get your deserving half in.
This is where the bottom-feeders come in... even a Nebraska or a Northwestern is going to bring some marbles into the conference, but will subsequently give all of them up to their conference mates before the season is over. The Big East figured this out in 2005 by adding the basketball-only schools.
The Big East is widely lauded as the best basketball conference top-to-bottom, but it's a double-edge sword. While the quality of basketball is going to be better on a nightly basis from January to early March, it also means that the marbles - even though there are more of them this year - are more likely to be spread more evenly among the teams than they are in the ACC, B?G, etc.
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No. You can increase the seeds by playing a stronger non-con schedule. Not only by playing more top teams, but by playing less sub-200 teams.
Don't f*ck with the round robin schedule.
Conference play, especially with a round-robin, is a zero sum game. The wins and losses get equally spread out to everyone. If you do not have a round robin, there is flexibility you can have with the scheduling (i.e. scheduling expecting top-seed to have guaranteed home/home with expected bottom seeds, to help project more conference wins; that ultimately helps out the middle if they don't play the top of the league equally). Imagine, under a 20-game scenario, if a preseason #1 team Villanova only needed to play #2 Seton Hall and #3 Xavier once each (instead of two). They would, conversely, be guaranteed to play more of the middle, or even the bottom teams, more.
To be clear, preseason predictions should not be used to "game" the conference schedule, but the example of spreading out the losses and also adding some wins still holds. We have not seen many 7-11 conference teams (or, likely, 8-12 teams) make the tournament. At the end of the day, teams still need to perform in conference play to secure bids.
The Big East this year had, undeniably, its best OOC year since its reconfiguration. That will help the seeds immensely come tournament time, but only as long as the top-3 teams create somewhat of a separation. If five teams go 10-8 (and the other five go 8-10), it does not help the seeds at all. Perhaps Georgetown and St. John's can "soak up" most up the conference L's to help elevate the middle and top for better positioning. I do think Providence ultimately comes back down to Earth (as I do DePaul).
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Exactly. Without a bunch of bottom-feeders, it is going to be more challenging for the BE than it is for the ACC (et al) to earn multiple protected seeds (i.e. #1-4) in any given year. The reason is simple: there aren't enough marbles to go around....
Benny's Marbles
Hearkening back to a much earlier post of mine, consider that each season starts with every team having a finite number of marbles... these marbles represent the collective metrics the selection committee uses to determine the Field of 68. Because of this, there is a level of bias involved, and so some teams (i.e. Duke, UNC, UK, KU, etc.) will start out the season with a few more marbles on average while most of the low-majors start out with a few less than average. Nevertheless, the winning team takes a number of the losing team's marbles depending on the quality of the win, and at the end of the season, the 36 teams with the most marbles on Selection Sunday get an at-large bid.
The #1 takeaway here is that by the time conference play rolls around, apart from a "bracket-buster" type game, marbles are only changing hands only within the respective conferences. So even if half your conference might otherwise be March-worthy, if your conference goes into January with half the marbles of the other conferences, there's just not going to be enough marbles to go around to get your deserving half in.
This is where the bottom-feeders come in... even a Nebraska or a Northwestern is going to bring some marbles into the conference, but will subsequently give all of them up to their conference mates before the season is over. The Big East figured this out in 2005 by adding the basketball-only schools.
The Big East is widely lauded as the best basketball conference top-to-bottom, but it's a double-edge sword. While the quality of basketball is going to be better on a nightly basis from January to early March, it also means that the marbles - even though there are more of them this year - are more likely to be spread more evenly among the teams than they are in the ACC, B?G, etc.
Again, the NCAA selection per their interviews have placed value on winning tough games and does not necessarily penalize for losing tough games provided your team is not blown out. This new metric has been developed with that in mind. Teams like Seton Hall that take risk in their schedule are getting rewarded. A great example of the opposite , was last years NC State squad, they had a terrible non con schedule littered with cupcakes and they got stiffed from the tournament despite a decent overall record and high NET ranking.
Big East as recently as 2018 had two #1 Seeds , Nova and X. The key to that was they both performed well non conference against tough teams and they dominated the conference.
The issue we have now in the Big East is that there no more bottom feeder teams. That is why I put such a huge emphasis on how we do non conference. Also , as others have pointed out, the quality of our conference opponents non con games matter too. The bottom feeder teams have been balancing the need to put wins on the board with improving the quality of their schedule. That trend will have to continue into the future as we need all our conference victories to be either Q1 or Q2 if possible.
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From today's New Haven Register.
UCONN ATHLETICS
The long road home
A look at the anatomy of the Huskies’ return to the Big East
By David Borges
PHOTOS
Richard Drew / Associated Press
UConn Director of Athletics David Benedict, left, men’s basketball coach Dan Hurley, center, and women’s basketball coach Geno Auriemma applaud during the announcement that UConn is re-joining the Big East Conference last June at Madison Square Garden.
Jessica Hill / Associated Press
UConn officially returns to the Big East on July 1.
Richard Drew / Associated Press
Geno Auriemma’s friendship with Big East commissioner Val Ackerman played a role in UConn’s return to the conference.
On June 19, 2019, UConn athletic director David Benedict spent 2 1/2 hours on a conference call with the American Athletic Conference finance committee.
There was a lot on the agenda, so much that Benedict, the committee chairman, suggested they arrive early to the AAC’s football media day in Newport, R.I. in a couple of weeks to get in some more work. He’d even arrange for a golf outing.
Benedict is the type of person who likes to be as direct and transparent as possible with people. However, he was harboring a secret that no one at the AAC, and only a very small circle of people at UConn, knew. A secret that would make his involvement with the AAC finance committee moot.
UConn was leaving the American and going back to the Big East.
It was remarkable the secret had been kept under wraps for so long, especially with UConn in the midst of a presidential transition, and with several other people and entities needing to sign off on the deal.
One national basketball writer just about had the story and had been calling Benedict nearly every day for three weeks, but could never quite confirm it. However, on June 21 — a Friday evening — the news broke via a most unlikely source.
Terry Lyons, a St. John’s alum who worked in NBA public relations for 25 years and now runs his own website, Digital Sports Desk, had gotten wind of UConn’s move earlier in the week — first at the NBA Draft, then at the Travelers Championship in Cromwell.
By Saturday morning, Lyons’ story had the attention of national media and fans alike. After years of rumors, UConn’s return to the Big East — which had nearly happened a few years earlier, only to die on the vine due to UConn’s continued hope of someday joining a Power Five conference, only to gain steam again when the school finally decided to abandon those hopes — was actually happening.
Huskies fans were ecstatic. AAC officials were shocked. Sure, they knew UConn wasn’t overly happy about its conference situation. Long-term employees dating back to the original Big East had also witnessed West Virginia, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and later Louisville, Rutgers and the “Catholic 7” depart the league.
But they didn’t see this one coming.
Needless to say, Benedict wasn’t invited to the finance committee meeting in Newport, and there was no golf event. He did show up to the AAC football media day. In fact, UConn’s departure has largely been handled with class by both sides.
Benedict was confident he had made the right decision for his athletic program. That point was hammered home a few weeks later, while attending one of his son’s baseball games. A man Benedict recognized asked him to come meet his 7-year-old son, who had something to tell him.
“I thought he was gonna give me a high-five or something,” Benedict recalled.
Benedict bent down, and the youngster knocked off the AD’s UConn hat while proclaiming, “St. John’s is gonna kick your butt!”
“That is the stuff we’ve been missing,” Benedict related. “That father and son, even though they’re not our fans, they’re gonna be in our arena when we play St. John’s. We haven’t had that. I can’t wait to see our fan base show up at Providence or Seton Hall, and I also can’t wait for them to be in our arenas.”
The feeling, apparently, is mutual.
“I think it’s a great thing,” said Providence athletic director Robert Driscoll. “I’ve always been a UConn fan. It’s a blue-blooded college basketball program. Having been in the Big East for 20 years, I think it was a real loss when we were no longer playing them. With our fans, it’ll be the biggest game on our schedule.”
After a long and winding seven-year road, UConn, a charter member of the Big East, officially returns home on July 1.
“It’ll actually be even better than it was before, in one sense, because of the excitement that goes with being back,” said UConn’s Hall of Fame women’s basketball coach Geno Auriemma. “Because we’ve been gone so long, going back to it … I can’t imagine you’re gonna be able to get a ticket to any men’s Big East game.”
A NEAR-DEAL GOES DEAD IN THE WATER
If there was one theme to Susan Herbst’s eight years as UConn’s 15th president, in terms of athletics, it was getting the school’s conference situation right.
“We were like a feather in the wind of conference realignment,” Herbst, who stepped down as president in 2019 and is now a professor at UConn’s Stamford campus, told Hearst Connecticut Media. “I felt like we were getting battered and blown around. It wasn’t any particular person’s fault, or commissioner or league. We were caught in kind of a perfect storm.”
In 2012, UConn was beaten out by Louisville for a final spot in the ACC, a crushing blow. A few years later, there was a flirtation with the Big 12 that ultimately fell short when that league decided not to expand. Always, a return home loomed.
“In my gut,” said Herbst, “there was always this feeling that it’s not gonna be right until we’re back in the Big East.”
Within a month of replacing Warde Manuel as UConn’s AD in March, 2016, Benedict was in Jim Calhoun’s office at the Werth Family Champions Center, asking for the Hall of Fame former Husky coach’s thoughts about returning to the Big East.
“There was no doubt in my mind that there was nothing wrong with the American, and I mean that very honestly,” Calhoun recalled. “I used the example that Gonzaga did just fine. But, with the emergence of Villanova being a national power … and other programs moving up, I just thought the Big East was one of the three or four best basketball leagues in the country, and what a good thing it would be for us. And you take all the other things — from recruiting to where you’re gonna play to travel — it would be a great thing.”
Calhoun also had informal conversations with Herbst, board of trustees member Tom Ritter and others.
“I wasn’t asked about football, just basketball,” Calhoun added. “UConn basketball is much, much better in the Big East.”
By several accounts, UConn’s return to the Big East started picking up steam around 2017. The Big East seemed very receptive, but was worried about one thing: If the ACC or another Power Five conference came calling, would UConn bolt?
UConn couldn’t give any assurances. It had a football program to worry about, and the allure of Power Five dollars was simply too great. According to sources, the Big East looked for ways to ensure UConn would stay put, in the form of either exorbitant entry or exit fees — or both. UConn wouldn’t go for it.
Football was a deal-breaker. UConn’s return to the Big East was dead in the water. In fact, any potential move was hardly broached — if at all — when Dan Hurley interviewed for the UConn men’s job in March, 2018, following Kevin Ollie’s dismissal.
Soon, however, there was a gradual realization that UConn wasn’t getting a P5 invite any time soon. There was also dissatisfaction with the AAC’s new TV deal, which essentially gave all of the conference’s rights to ESPN and put the UConn women’s basketball team’s important partnership with SNY in jeopardy — though Benedict called the widely-held notion that the TV deal was the defining factor to leave the AAC “wholly inaccurate.”
“What does that have to do with the impact (being in the AAC) has on recruiting in men’s basketball?,” he asked, rhetorically. “It has nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with the excitement our fan base has in returning to the Big East, playing against longtime rivals.”
There was some thought that the Big East’s presidents might vote for UConn’s return to the league at their annual meeting in Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla. in the summer of 2018. It didn’t happen, but over the ensuing months, particularly the following winter, talks rekindled and things started to take off. The decision-making was done among the Big East presidents; basketball coaches in the league were almost entirely in the dark.
Over the final few months, negotiations went “pretty smoothly,” according to Herbst. By June, 2019, it was essentially a done deal. Thanks to Terry Lyons’ travel itinerary from the NBA Draft to Cromwell, it soon became public.
‘IT’S A WIN-WIN’
“There was no one source or one person,” Lyons said of his scoop. “What I can say, it wasn’t Big East people. Most people think it was the Big East, but it was not. It was around the edges, that’s all I’ll say.”
Lyons’ big scoop was short on details, like what would happen with football? The program would go independent, and though that seemed risky, Benedict has done some impressive scheduling for the program for the next several years.
Still, this move was essentially about one sport.
“I don’t think anybody would disagree that this is primarily a men’s basketball move,” Auriemma acknowledged, “because it’s so important for our men’s basketball program and how crucial its success is to our university. That ends up benefiting everybody else in the athletic department.”
For Auriemma, it means leaving a league where, privately, even AAC officials admit to being disappointed no other program could step up and be competitive (the UConn women never lost a league game in their seven seasons in the AAC, though Auriemma rightly points out that in four of those seasons, the Huskies would have gone undefeated in any league in the country).
And UConn women’s games — about 16-18 per year — will remain on SNY.
Of course, the Big East didn’t need UConn back. The league was doing just fine as a 10-team unit. Villa-nova won a pair of national titles, the league earned numerous NCAA tournament bids per year and consistently ranked as one of the best in the country, its championship tournament at Madison Square Garden routinely selling out.
“We could have stayed pat,” PC’s Driscoll pointed out, “but we want to be the best basketball conference in the nation.”
If any school may have earned reservations about the UConn men returning to the Big East, it’s Providence. At Big East Media Day last October, PC coach Ed Cooley said he felt the league “gave Connecticut new life, gave their fan base new life,” and criticized UConn for chasing football dollars the past seven years, adding, “Shame on (UConn) for making that decision upfront.”
Cooley reckoned Hurley and his staff will become even more of a recruiting force on the East Coast and, indeed, the Huskies have already reeled in a pair of prime 2020 New York/New Jersey recruits in Andre Jackson and Adama Sanogo — the latter snatched right from Seton Hall’s grasp.
“It’ll make it tougher, because now we’ve got a real competitor in the Northeast again,” Driscoll conceded. “But I’m OK with that. I think it really helps the Big East brand. Our brand has been phenomenal, probably better than anyone thought when we reconvened. But bringing UConn back only adds to that national cache. I think it’s a win-win.”
Understandably, the move comes with initial costs to UConn. There is a $3.5 million entry fee (potentially as much as a third of the Big East’s asking price a few years earlier) as well as a $17 million exit fee from the American. UConn’s first two “down payments” toward that fee come from the AAC withholding the program’s year-end, conference-related distributions from 2018-19 and 2019-20 (the latter of which won’t be known until June). UConn will then pay about $1 million a year until the balance is paid off.
Then there’s the $30 million exit fee UConn must pay if it leaves the Big East — a number that gradually decreases after six years.
“We didn’t join the Big East to leave,” Benedict pointed out. “They didn’t bring us in to leave, and we didn’t join to leave.”
There are many who deserve credit for UConn’s return: Herbst and other UConn administrators, Big East commissioner Val Ackerman — and don’t discount Auriemma’s longtime friendship with Ackerman.
And Benedict, who deserves as much credit as anyone.
“He worked hard at it,” said Driscoll. “He built a lot of relationships and did a good job of convincing us, ‘We’re gonna be a good teammate.’”
On July 1, UConn officially returns to the Big East.
“Now,” said Susan Herbst, “it’s about every day, making the Big East feel as though we belong with them, we matter, and we’re an incredibly good partner.”
david.borges @hearstmediact.com
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UConn has apparently signed a football broadcast deal with SNY and CBS Sports. If that brings them any value whatsoever, this was likely beneficial for them. As I said earlier, it is much easier to be a football independent now than it was 10 years ago.
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UConn has apparently signed a football broadcast deal with SNY and CBS Sports. If that brings them any value whatsoever, this was likely beneficial for them. As I said earlier, it is much easier to be a football independent now than it was 10 years ago.
Apparently (4) home games on CBS Sports Network will be televised with the remaining (3) home games on SNY.
Financial specifics weren’t available but the CBS deal, which is over seven figures for the four years, will benefit UConn in ways similar to the average of deals in place for teams in conferences such as Conference USA, the MAAC and Mountain West. Every FBS game UConn plays in the life of the deal will be on linear TV. There is a possibility that the one annual FCS game will be available on a digital-only platform.
UConn expects to know the start time for every game in advance of a season, and most will be in the noon-3:30 window on Saturdays, with the likelihood for one Friday night game a year. The UConn/CBS Sports deal was done through Learfield IMG College, which holds UConn’s multimedia rights.
“All I can tell you is we're getting paid,” Benedict said. “We are being compensated and they're obviously covering the costs of production.”
(Apparently in the AAC deal UConn would have to cover the costs of production.)
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UConn's four-year deal with CBSSN reportedly will pay the Huskies more than $1M total. And they don't have to produce the games.
CBS Sports Network will televise four home games during the 2020 season and all home games through the 2023 season. This will help filled the gap that CBSSN lost in the 12 or so AAC games that gets moved to ESPN Plus.
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UConn's four-year deal with CBSSN reportedly will pay the Huskies more than $1M total. And they don't have to produce the games.
CBS Sports Network will televise four home games during the 2020 season and all home games through the 2023 season. This will help filled the gap that CBSSN lost in the 12 or so AAC games that gets moved to ESPN Plus.
So the $250K per year helps cut the $13.3 million deficit somewhat.
I wonder what they made on the AAC deal.
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UConn spent $9+ million on travel alone in 2019 ($7+ million in 2018). You'd have to imagine that gets cut down considerably too.
Years from now, many will be wondering why UConn didn't do this (move to the Big East) sooner.
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UConn spent $9+ million on travel alone in 2019 ($7+ million in 2018). You'd have to imagine that gets cut down considerably too.
Years from now, many will be wondering why UConn didn't do this (move to the Big East) sooner.
It depends on who they can schedule. I wonder if AAC teams will refuse to schedule them, as some BE teams did when BC, Miami and Va Tech left.
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It depends on who they can schedule. I wonder if AAC teams will refuse to schedule them, as some BE teams did when BC, Miami and Va Tech left.
What difference does it make? UConn had no natural rivals in the AAC. There were some good teams - UCF, Memphis, Cincinnati - but none of them are more attractive than any of the Power 5 teams they have been able to schedule. Really, outside of perhaps the pre-breakup Big East teams, there are no must play teams for UConn, and I do not know how enthusiastic their fans are about playing Pitt, Syracuse, and West Virginia. Certainly nobody is going to feel bad because East Carolina, Tulane, and Tulsa will not schedule them.
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It depends on who they can schedule. I wonder if AAC teams will refuse to schedule them, as some BE teams did when BC, Miami and Va Tech left.
Supposedly they will be playing Memphis & Cincinnati in MBB.
The football team has a future game scheduled with UCF.
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It depends on who they can schedule. I wonder if AAC teams will refuse to schedule them, as some BE teams did when BC, Miami and Va Tech left.
The AAC is pretty darn close to mid-major without UConn, so I suspect they will still schedule them if possible because they can use all the good opponents they can get.
That wasn't true with the BE when BC, Miami and Va Tech left. The BE was still a solidly high-major conference that wasn't desperate for good opponents.
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Supposedly they will be playing Memphis & Cincinnati in MBB.
The football team has a future game scheduled with UCF.
They can’t run away from the Civil Conflict
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AAC still has plenty of solid programs without UConn. The conference's biggest problem is they are very weak after you get past the likes of Wichita, Houston and Memphis.
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AAC still has plenty of solid programs without UConn. The conference's biggest problem is they are very weak after you get past the likes of Wichita, Houston and Memphis.
'Very weak' after three programs does not equal 'plenty of solid programs' in an eleven-member conference. Six or seven would be plenty, IMHO.
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'Very weak' after three programs does not equal 'plenty of solid programs' in an eleven-member conference. Six or seven would be plenty, IMHO.
Fluffy is wrong about most things. But very similar to Chicos, he has to argue with everyone and pretend to be a know it all, all the while coming across as a complete dumbass.
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Fluffy is wrong about most things. But very similar to Chicos, he has to argue with everyone and pretend to be a know it all, all the while coming across as a complete dumbass.
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/living-rentfree-in-5b48b5.jpg)
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'Very weak' after three programs does not equal 'plenty of solid programs' in an eleven-member conference. Six or seven would be plenty, IMHO.
I don't disagree. I think that "pretty darn close to a mid-major" when you are usually a multi-bid league isn't necessarilty accurate either. The AAC, along with a couple of other conferences, kind of hover just outside the P6 with a couple of programs who can beat any team on a given night. It's hard for me to label them as mid-major though.
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Supposedly they will be playing Memphis & Cincinnati in MBB.
The football team has a future game scheduled with UCF.
You could maybe add Cincinnati and Houston on the football side.
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The problem for the AAC, both in its foundation and in present forms, is that it lacks "power-level" programs in football and men's basketball, and routinely has "anchors" in both sports. It always has strong middle-to-high level programs, but their accomplishments and recognitions get dragged down both of these weaknesses. Unfortunately for the AAC, neither is really fixable long-term, so they are doing what they currently are: marketing/branding as a P6 in hopes that it "covers up" its inadequacies in hopes that it is accepted as a peer (as a P conference).
UConn Basketball leaving the AAC, despite what AAC fans proclaim, was and is a huge blow to the perception of the league. Yes, they still have programs like Houston, Cincinnati, Memphis and Wichita State (which are high-level programs), but they also still have ECU, Tulane, USF, UCF and SMU, all of which are historically weaker basketball programs and have little-to-postseason success (which was a major focal point on why the C7 did not want to associate with those programs in basketball). Their bottom has just as many programs as their top does; add in other programs like Tulsa and/or Temple who go through re-builds, and it is clear that it is a 3-bid league annually.
The P6 basketball conferences each have national championship-level programs to anchor it annually. The ACC has UNC/Duke/Virginia; the Big 12 has Kansas; the PAC has UCLA/Arizona; we have Villanova/UConn (again). The last time an AAC program won a national championship was over 50 years ago. UConn leaving definitely knocked them down the ladder, so to speak.
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The problem for the AAC, both in its foundation and in present forms, is that it lacks "power-level" programs in football and men's basketball, and routinely has "anchors" in both sports. It always has strong middle-to-high level programs, but their accomplishments and recognitions get dragged down both of these weaknesses. Unfortunately for the AAC, neither is really fixable long-term, so they are doing what they currently are: marketing/branding as a P6 in hopes that it "covers up" its inadequacies in hopes that it is accepted as a peer (as a P conference).
UConn Basketball leaving the AAC, despite what AAC fans proclaim, was and is a huge blow to the perception of the league. Yes, they still have programs like Houston, Cincinnati, Memphis and Wichita State (which are high-level programs), but they also still have ECU, Tulane, USF, UCF and SMU, all of which are historically weaker basketball programs and have little-to-postseason success (which was a major focal point on why the C7 did not want to associate with those programs in basketball). Their bottom has just as many programs as their top does; add in other programs like Tulsa and/or Temple who go through re-builds, and it is clear that it is a 3-bid league annually.
The P6 basketball conferences each have national championship-level programs to anchor it annually. The ACC has UNC/Duke/Virginia; the Big 12 has Kansas; the PAC has UCLA/Arizona; we have Villanova/UConn (again). The last time an AAC program won a national championship was over 50 years ago. UConn leaving definitely knocked them down the ladder, so to speak.
Also, every school would leave that league in a heartbeat if offered
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The problem for the AAC, both in its foundation and in present forms, is that it lacks "power-level" programs in football and men's basketball, and routinely has "anchors" in both sports. It always has strong middle-to-high level programs, but their accomplishments and recognitions get dragged down both of these weaknesses. Unfortunately for the AAC, neither is really fixable long-term, so they are doing what they currently are: marketing/branding as a P6 in hopes that it "covers up" its inadequacies in hopes that it is accepted as a peer (as a P conference).
UConn Basketball leaving the AAC, despite what AAC fans proclaim, was and is a huge blow to the perception of the league. Yes, they still have programs like Houston, Cincinnati, Memphis and Wichita State (which are high-level programs), but they also still have ECU, Tulane, USF, UCF and SMU, all of which are historically weaker basketball programs and have little-to-postseason success (which was a major focal point on why the C7 did not want to associate with those programs in basketball). Their bottom has just as many programs as their top does; add in other programs like Tulsa and/or Temple who go through re-builds, and it is clear that it is a 3-bid league annually.
The P6 basketball conferences each have national championship-level programs to anchor it annually. The ACC has UNC/Duke/Virginia; the Big 12 has Kansas; the PAC has UCLA/Arizona; we have Villanova/UConn (again). The last time an AAC program won a national championship was over 50 years ago. UConn leaving definitely knocked them down the ladder, so to speak.
AAC is primarily a football conference and that is where the league and the schools are putting their emphasis. Football is where the TV money is and has the ability to draw alumni support , so focusing on football is their league's best course of action. AAC has been showing solid success at the individual program level in football. They had 3 top 25 teams this year and plenty of bowl teams. The league negotiated an improved TV contract because of football ( although still nowhere near the P5 deals).
Basketball for the AAC is for the most part going to be a function of the handful of schools that put a heavy emphasis on the sport. As pointed out above, too many anchors for AAC basketball league to expand beyond what it is. Now that U Conn has left the basketball league can go to a 20 game double round robin format. That schedule format will probably benefit the top tier teams in their basketball league as they will have more winnable conference road games. One big flaw in the TV contract with ESPN is that most of the AAC basketball games are going to be on ESPN+, so their visibility for Basketball goes down.
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AAC is primarily a football conference and that is where the league and the schools are putting their emphasis. Football is where the TV money is and has the ability to draw alumni support , so focusing on football is their league's best course of action. AAC has been showing solid success at the individual program level in football. They had 3 top 25 teams this year and plenty of bowl teams. The league negotiated an improved TV contract because of football ( although still nowhere near the P5 deals).
Basketball for the AAC is for the most part going to be a function of the handful of schools that put a heavy emphasis on the sport. As pointed out above, too many anchors for AAC basketball league to expand beyond what it is. Now that U Conn has left the basketball league can go to a 20 game double round robin format. That schedule format will probably benefit the top tier teams in their basketball league as they will have more winnable conference road games. One big flaw in the TV contract with ESPN is that most of the AAC basketball games are going to be on ESPN+, so their visibility for Basketball goes down.
The AAC is definitely a football-first conference, for sure. However, while there are several strong, self-sufficient programs (i.e. UCF, Houston, Memphis, Cincinnati, USF), there are also programs that simply have repeatedly struggled on the field (ECU and Tulsa) and others that simply do not have the necessary fan support (SMU, Tulsa, Tulane). What's funny about the AAC TV deal is that it still is not as much as the overall deal the Big East (hybrid) turned down in 2010. Unfortunately for Cincinnati and USF, they very much got the Houston/SMU treatment went the SWC disbanded in the 90's; they were left behind while other conference mates found greener pastures.
In basketball, if the AAC does move to a round-robin format, it will cause irreparable harm to the top-level teams. That means they will be forced to play teams like ECU, Tulane, UCF, USF and SMU twice, home and away. They will seriously damage their tournament resumes, win or lose, simply because those programs are regularly outside the top-100, and - in the case of the ECU/Tulane - outside the 200s. The AAC was creatively wise in its flex scheduling (keeping top-ranked teams scheduled together, and only allowing them to play bottom teams once). Couple that with their unique SEC scheduling challenge, they have been able to creatively and artificially lift their top-ranked teams a bit higher due to that. A R/R would destroy that IMO.
In retrospect, especially with the Big 12 CCG game being granted a few years ago, the AAC made a huge mistake in inviting ECU and Tulsa along as full members (IMO, I think Tulane was also a mistake, but at least they appear to be making progressions in football). Neither has performed in football and/or basketball, and both are essentially eating a chunk of the pie that is not very big to begin with.
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It's amazing, that of the 16 teams in the Big East prior to 2013, only 2 remain in the AAC (which is, legally speaking, the same organization). Neither of those schools was in the Big East before the 2005 expansion.
AAC: Cincinnati, USF
Big East: UConn, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, DePaul
ACC: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
Big 12: West Virginia
Big Ten: Rutgers
Temple has the longest Big East history of the current AAC teams, having played football in the Big East in the 1990s.
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It's amazing, that of the 16 teams in the Big East prior to 2013, only 2 remain in the AAC (which is, legally speaking, the same organization). Neither of those schools was in the Big East before the 2005 expansion.
AAC: Cincinnati, USF
Big East: UConn, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, DePaul
ACC: Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
Big 12: West Virginia
Big Ten: Rutgers
Temple has the longest Big East history of the current AAC teams, having played football in the Big East in the 1990s.
Wow. That is actually pretty incredible. To be fair though, Temple was slated to join the BE as a full member in summer 2013 and had already joined back for Football.
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Wow. That is actually pretty incredible. To be fair though, Temple was slated to join the BE as a full member in summer 2013 and had already joined back for Football.
True, but so had Memphis, UCF, SMU, and Houston. I recall when Houston received an invite. Their fans were ecstatic. "We'll be playing Georgetown!" Georgetown was probably the biggest or least most recognizable name for Houston fans. What they did not get was that Georgetown did not want to play them. I do not recall the exact order the teams came in. I recall that Temple and Memphis were announced at the same time. I assume most of the pre-expansion membership voted to take them. I am not sure about the rest. I know that the Catholic 7 were not at all happy about adding Tulane, and that might have been the last straw. But formal names aside, the newcomers were never going to be part of the Big East. Even USF was a stretch at best. They only got in because the football teams needed to recruit Florida and BC unexpectedly left for the ACC, so they got in for everything else as well.
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True, but so had Memphis, UCF, SMU, and Houston. I recall when Houston received an invite. Their fans were ecstatic. "We'll be playing Georgetown!" Georgetown was probably the biggest or least most recognizable name for Houston fans. What they did not get was that Georgetown did not want to play them. I do not recall the exact order the teams came in. I recall that Temple and Memphis were announced at the same time. I assume most of the pre-expansion membership voted to take them. I am not sure about the rest. I know that the Catholic 7 were not at all happy about adding Tulane, and that might have been the last straw. But formal names aside, the newcomers were never going to be part of the Big East. Even USF was a stretch at best. They only got in because the football teams needed to recruit Florida and BC unexpectedly left for the ACC, so they got in for everything else as well.
Yep, Tuland what triggered Larry Williams and led him to get the Catholic Seven on board to start the process of leaving. The amusing part was that his daughter had just started working in the athletic department at Tulane when he went on the radio and ripped the addition of Tulane.
"I was not pleased that we issued an invitation to Tulane without any diligence to what effect that would have on our basketball product, the draw on our RPI and other such things."
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I thought it was ECU that broke the camels back? Either way I remember thinking "great! Temple and Memphis legit. Houston has some great history... Tulsa has some respectable mid major success though not being Big East level..." then screaming at Tulane ECU UCF SMU etc.
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It was Tulane. ECU wasn’t invited until after C7 announced their departure.
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It was Tulane. ECU wasn’t invited until after C7 announced their departure.
Thanks, some things you try to block out from memory
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It was Tulane. ECU wasn’t invited until after C7 announced their departure.
From my understanding, while the ADs were not on board at all for Tulane as a full-member, the Presidents were obviously in support of it (academic status) and the (then) Big East was being reassured by its (then) commissioner that the acquisition of major media markets (i.e. Houston, Dallas, Orlando, Memphis, New Orleans, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, Chicago, New York City, Washington D.C., etc.) would recoup the lost value when Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia et al left. That is what got the C7 to hold their noses at the time.
When it was quickly learned that the new contract offer from ESPN was peanuts, the C7 then began looking at separating and looking for its own TV deal (as, if we aren't going to be making the big money, let's at least put the best basketball league together with like-minded institutions). Tulane is naturally used as the scapegoat, but I really feel that it was what was being sold by the (then) conference leadership that didn't end up happening as the biggest reason why the C7 left.
Also, FWIW, the C7 also held the belief that ECU would inevitably become a full-member (they originally were a football-only member). That would have been yet another basketball anchor to try and work with. Yuck.
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AAC still has plenty of solid programs without UConn. The conference's biggest problem is they are very weak after you get past the likes of Wichita, Houston and Memphis.
I wonder if Wichita should still be mentioned in that company. Their resurgence was begun when they hired Marshall as bball coach. Now that a majority(?) of his team has transferred amid complaints about abusive coaching can he get Wichita back to where it has been?
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True, but so had Memphis, UCF, SMU, and Houston. I recall when Houston received an invite. Their fans were ecstatic. "We'll be playing Georgetown!" Georgetown was probably the biggest or least most recognizable name for Houston fans. What they did not get was that Georgetown did not want to play them. I do not recall the exact order the teams came in. I recall that Temple and Memphis were announced at the same time. I assume most of the pre-expansion membership voted to take them. I am not sure about the rest. I know that the Catholic 7 were not at all happy about adding Tulane, and that might have been the last straw. But formal names aside, the newcomers were never going to be part of the Big East. Even USF was a stretch at best. They only got in because the football teams needed to recruit Florida and BC unexpectedly left for the ACC, so they got in for everything else as well.
Also, Boise State and San Diego State were going to become football-only members.
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UConn advertising for season BB tickets.
They are running radio ads also.
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From my understanding, while the ADs were not on board at all for Tulane as a full-member, the Presidents were obviously in support of it (academic status) and the (then) Big East was being reassured by its (then) commissioner that the acquisition of major media markets (i.e. Houston, Dallas, Orlando, Memphis, New Orleans, Cincinnati, Tampa Bay, Chicago, New York City, Washington D.C., etc.) would recoup the lost value when Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia et al left. That is what got the C7 to hold their noses at the time.
When it was quickly learned that the new contract offer from ESPN was peanuts, the C7 then began looking at separating and looking for its own TV deal (as, if we aren't going to be making the big money, let's at least put the best basketball league together with like-minded institutions). Tulane is naturally used as the scapegoat, but I really feel that it was what was being sold by the (then) conference leadership that didn't end up happening as the biggest reason why the C7 left.
Also, FWIW, the C7 also held the belief that ECU would inevitably become a full-member (they originally were a football-only member). That would have been yet another basketball anchor to try and work with. Yuck.
Talking about anchors.. How did DePaul end up getting an invite/ 8-)
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Talking about anchors.. How did DePaul end up getting an invite/ 8-)
Agreed but last year they were pretty good. Someone has to finish last. If the P5 in football pulls out of the NCAA, some good programs accustomed to 9-10 wins will have 7-8 wins. .500 is always the result across the board.
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UConn becomes first FBS team to cancel football season because of coronavirus
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29600577/uconn-becomes-1st-fbs-team-cancel-football-season-due-coronavirus
Nice first step on the road to the FCS....
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UConn becomes first FBS team to cancel football season because of coronavirus
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29600577/uconn-becomes-1st-fbs-team-cancel-football-season-due-coronavirus
Nice first step on the road to the FCS....
Didn't have much of a choice. 4-6 games were already going to be cancelled due to other conferences cancelling non-conference games. What's the point of keeping a season to play 6 games?
I will be curious to see what they do long term. Staying independent is not viable for them.
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UConn becomes first FBS team to cancel football season because of coronavirus
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29600577/uconn-becomes-1st-fbs-team-cancel-football-season-due-coronavirus
Nice first step on the road to the FCS....
This feels like the first step towards no football, even.
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UConn becomes first FBS team to cancel football season because of coronavirus
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29600577/uconn-becomes-1st-fbs-team-cancel-football-season-due-coronavirus
Nice first step on the road to the FCS....
So Covid was created by UCONN to help them eradicate their football program after joining the BEast?
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UCONN gave up football a long time ago.
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This feels like the first step towards no football, even.
Agreed. The other schools will eventually go that way; it was just easier for UConn to be the first major school because they had lost half their schedule anyway.
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This feels like the first step towards no football, even.
UConn needs to play football. 48 of the 50 flagship state schools in the US play football, Alaska and Vermont excepted. It would look very weak if Southern Connecticut and Central Connecticut can play the sport but the flagship university cannot.
On a secondary issue, I would like to see UConn schedule the other three Big East football schools in its non-conference rotation. There are issues which would limit this, of course, but it's worth considering.
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UConn needs to play football. 48 of the 50 flagship state schools in the US play football, Alaska and Vermont excepted. It would look very weak if Southern Connecticut and Central Connecticut can play the sport but the flagship university cannot.
On a secondary issue, I would like to see UConn schedule the other three Big East football schools in its non-conference rotation. There are issues which would limit this, of course, but it's worth considering.
UConn should drop to FCS
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UConn should drop to FCS
Yes. It’s options are very limited in a Covid world. UConn does have a bit of a window in the post-vaccine world, but it’s a very narrow window.
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UConn should drop to FCS
I disagree. UCONN as a FBS school is a stronger BE member. That said, I'm not a Conneticut resident or alum. Perhaps some of you are and have a dog in the fight. This is a non issue to 99% of BE fans not from UCONN.
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UConn needs to play football. 48 of the 50 flagship state schools in the US play football, Alaska and Vermont excepted. It would look very weak if Southern Connecticut and Central Connecticut can play the sport but the flagship university cannot.
On a secondary issue, I would like to see UConn schedule the other three Big East football schools in its non-conference rotation. There are issues which would limit this, of course, but it's worth considering.
CCSU is FCS, as mentioned, which is a very different financial proposition. And SCSU is D2 so they aren’t even relevant to the discussion.
Otherwise I agree. UCONN is a pretty natural fit for the Colonial for football with Nova, and then could add GTown and Butler non con
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It would look very weak if Southern Connecticut and Central Connecticut can play the sport but the flagship university cannot.
49.5% of America yawns in apathy. Another 49.5% say "UConn still has football?"
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I disagree. UCONN as a FBS school is a stronger BE member. That said, I'm not a Conneticut resident or alum. Perhaps some of you are and have a dog in the fight. This is a non issue to 99% of BE fans not from UCONN.
Yeah I don’t think having a crappy FBS team helps the BE at all.
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UConn needs to play football. 48 of the 50 flagship state schools in the US play football, Alaska and Vermont excepted. It would look very weak if Southern Connecticut and Central Connecticut can play the sport but the flagship university cannot.
On a secondary issue, I would like to see UConn schedule the other three Big East football schools in its non-conference rotation. There are issues which would limit this, of course, but it's worth considering.
You are giving wayyyy too much importance to "playing football." It is FBS or bust. Literally no one cares about FCS football. The difference between having a FCS team and not having football is basically zero.
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Yes. It’s options are very limited in a Covid world. UConn does have a bit of a window in the post-vaccine world, but it’s a very narrow window.
UConn's future schedule is pretty good. Some good payday games at power schools in Clemson, Michigan, Tennessee, NC State and Ohio State. Some home and homes with Purdue, Syracuse, Boston College, UMass and Duke.
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You are giving wayyyy too much importance to "playing football." It is FBS or bust. Literally no one cares about FCS football. The difference between having a FCS team and not having football is basically zero.
I hear it's pretty popular in Montana.
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UConn's future schedule is pretty good. Some good payday games at power schools in Clemson, Michigan, Tennessee, NC State and Ohio State. Some home and homes with Purdue, Syracuse, Boston College, UMass and Duke.
They've had no problem filling the future schedule. And they have a multiyear TV deal with CBS Sports Network.
The state has invested too much in the program and they will not drop to FCS or outright alltogether.
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They've had no problem filling the future schedule. And they have a multiyear TV deal with CBS Sports Network.
The state has invested too much in the program and they will not drop to FCS or outright alltogether.
True...but you have to wonder how many schedules and TV deals will be renegotiated in light of Covid. And how much increasingly thin state budgets can afford to invest in sports programs, especially a football program that has entered the near-impossible world of FBS independents.
I don't profess to understand the local politics of this nearly as well as you do, but it just seems like a dead-end proposition.
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I hear it's pretty popular in Montana.
That kind of proves my point.
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True...but you have to wonder how many schedules and TV deals will be renegotiated in light of Covid. And how much increasingly thin state budgets can afford to invest in sports programs, especially a football program that has entered the near-impossible world of FBS independents.
I don't profess to understand the local politics of this nearly as well as you do, but it just seems like a dead-end proposition.
FWIW the football TV deal with CBS Sports was made in the middle of Coronavirus.
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FWIW the football TV deal with CBS Sports was made in the middle of Coronavirus.
Yes, but that was back in early May - those sanguine days when many thought the worst was almost behind us, governors would patiently reopen their states according to the CDC guidelines, and we would see sports in the fall. The announcement on UConn's website even mentioned - quite optimistically - that the deal called for 4 nationally televised games in 2020.
https://uconnhuskies.com/news/2020/5/11/uconn-and-cbs-sports-agree-to-multi-year-television-deal-for-home-football-games.aspx
Ironically, Connecticut was one of the few states that actually was patient and logical in its reopening, yet UConn was one of the first FBS schools to postpone its season.
I'm not saying CBSSN drops them like a hot rock, but with schools and networks strapped for cash, the renegotiated deal might not be so sweet.