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Author Topic: UConn to BE Rumors  (Read 34953 times)

79Warrior

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #325 on: July 13, 2019, 09:46:55 AM »

OK I'm going to unpack this gem a few steps at a time.

First, it is completely irrelevant how good a club team is.  The quality of players at the D1 varsity level will be much higher.  The expectations for facilities and the demands for training and conditioning will be well beyond what a club team has. 

Second, "scholarships do not cost the university a thing?"  Are you insane?  Those students take up places in classrooms.  They receive academic support and advising.  They take up rooms in residence halls.  They eat.  They get professional level strength training.  All for free.  Now the marginal cost of adding additional athletes is less than the list cost of a scholarship no doubt.  But the idea that scholarships would be a no cost proposition for the University is absolutely laughable. 

Finally, you are also wrong about facilities.  Marquette has facilities for a sport like men's volleyball.  They had facilities in place when they added lacrosse.  If they piggyback it onto a new rec center, they could also have facilities for swimming and diving.  (A sport that the BE offers.)  They would have to lease facilities for hockey for both practice and competition.  And that's expensive.

Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #326 on: July 13, 2019, 10:23:38 AM »
Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.


Yes it is.  Adding hockey would cost additional scholarship dollars.  Have donors oversubscribed the total number of athletic scholarships currently available?  Very doubtful.  Regardless, having to fundraise additional dollars for athletic scholarships is a cost, both in terms of the money paid to fundraise, as well as the cost of dollars being directed there versus somewhere else.
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source?

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #327 on: July 13, 2019, 05:23:05 PM »

Yes it is.  Adding hockey would cost additional scholarship dollars.  Have donors oversubscribed the total number of athletic scholarships currently available?  Very doubtful.  Regardless, having to fundraise additional dollars for athletic scholarships is a cost, both in terms of the money paid to fundraise, as well as the cost of dollars being directed there versus somewhere else.

According to the blue and gold fund, Marquette currently funds 96 of a potential 136 scholarships.

https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/21/about-bgf.aspx
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 05:25:17 PM by source? »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #328 on: July 13, 2019, 07:01:05 PM »
According to the blue and gold fund, Marquette currently funds 96 of a potential 136 scholarships.

https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/21/about-bgf.aspx


Thank you.
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dad's couch

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #329 on: July 13, 2019, 07:15:13 PM »
Two most recent DI hockey programs are Penn State and Arizona State. Penn State received $100 million check from the owner of the Buffalo Bills and Sabres to cover the cost of the Men's and Women's program as well as the on campus arena. Arizona State received $32 million in donations to cover the costs for approximately the first 10 years of the program and then the school will have to cover expenses. They do not play at an on campus facility.


Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #330 on: July 13, 2019, 07:18:52 PM »
Two most recent DI hockey programs are Penn State and Arizona State. Penn State received $100 million check from the owner of the Buffalo Bills and Sabres to cover the cost of the Men's and Women's program as well as the on campus arena. Arizona State received $32 million in donations to cover the costs for approximately the first 10 years of the program and then the school will have to cover expenses. They do not play at an on campus facility.

bUt ScHoLaRsHiPs DoN't CoSt ThE uNiVeRsItY aNyThInG!!!111!!!
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Cheeks

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #331 on: July 14, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »
I don't think any sport is really going to help Marquette much.  But the only sports that the BE sponsors that Marquette doesn't participate in are baseball and swimming and diving.  I don't think either of those will be happening any time soon.

The only thing that would be beneficial about a sport like Men's Volleyball is they have the arena to practice and play, and it gives them further inroads to recruiting markets like Chicago.  But since they would have to add a women's sport to balance that out, I just don't know what that would be.

Men’s vball would mean more kids from out of state paying tuition. We have an excellent men’s club program as it is, nationally ranked #1 last year, finished 8th this year in nationals.  With varsity men’s vball only having I think 4 scholarships (someone can correct me on that) it means a lot of paying students.

There are some very good players out there itching to play and looking for that opportunity.  The Midwest also has some decent players and some excellent ones (fewer) that might be willing to stay closer to home.


Someone earlier said if the Big East doesn’t sponsor it no thanks.  I say forget that thought process.  The Midwest is ripe to take advantage of this as we did lacrosse.  There are only a handful of Midwest teams, little Loyola Chicago won two national titles (with mostly California and out of state kids).  Lewis, Ball State, etc in the Midwest along with powerhouse Ohio State. 

We should get on this now.  Add women’s golf which is not a heavy cost sport and the economics should legely pay for themselves in $$ coming in from additional tuition remissions.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #332 on: July 14, 2019, 01:48:58 PM »
Men’s vball would mean more kids from out of state paying tuition. We have an excellent men’s club program as it is, nationally ranked #1 last year, finished 8th this year in nationals.  With varsity men’s vball only having I think 4 scholarships (someone can correct me on that) it means a lot of paying students.

There are some very good players out there itching to play and looking for that opportunity.  The Midwest also has some decent players and some excellent ones (fewer) that might be willing to stay closer to home.


Someone earlier said if the Big East doesn’t sponsor it no thanks.  I say forget that thought process.  The Midwest is ripe to take advantage of this as we did lacrosse.  There are only a handful of Midwest teams, little Loyola Chicago won two national titles (with mostly California and out of state kids).  Lewis, Ball State, etc in the Midwest along with powerhouse Ohio State. 

We should get on this now.  Add women’s golf which is not a heavy cost sport and the economics should legely pay for themselves in $$ coming in from additional tuition remissions.


If MU decides to expand its athletic offerings, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense.
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Cheeks

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #333 on: July 14, 2019, 01:57:36 PM »

If MU decides to expand its athletic offerings, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense.

The school has been rumored to look into adding men’s volleyball, but how seriously they have taken it is unknown.  With no programs in the state of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan...MU could do quite well in my opinion.  Illinois has several (Four I think, mix of D1 and D2), Indiana has two.


On the golf side, the men’s program has improved immensely and has access to great courses because of the building of courses in the state. 
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #334 on: July 14, 2019, 02:03:01 PM »
Women's Golf is also sponsored by the Big East.
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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #335 on: July 14, 2019, 02:25:50 PM »
Looking at the Big East sponsored sports, Swimming is the most economically attractive for a private school like MU. Large roster sizes spread out over a fix number of scholarships. 9.9 for Men and 14 for women.

Georgetown for example has 51 kids on their mens and woman's rosters. So net full paying tuitions added are 27.1.
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warriorchick

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #336 on: July 14, 2019, 02:51:54 PM »
Looking at the Big East sponsored sports, Swimming is the most economically attractive for a private school like MU. Large roster sizes spread out over a fix number of scholarships. 9.9 for Men and 14 for women.

Georgetown for example has 51 kids on their mens and woman's rosters. So net full paying tuitions added are 27.1.

We don't the proper facilities for D1 swimming.  Not even close. And even if they were available somewhere else in Milwaukee, s a swim team spends so many hours in the pool every day, they really can't spend the time to travel to an off-campus site.

However, I do think when they build the new rec facility, they should seriously consider planning for the potential of adding swimming
Have some patience, FFS.

auburnmarquette

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #337 on: July 14, 2019, 03:21:50 PM »
Actually, many athletic scholarships are endowed by alums. I actually have done that and paid it out over several years. In addition, the Blue and Gold fund raises money to cover many of the items you mentioned. His point is hardly laughable.

Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.
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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #338 on: July 14, 2019, 08:33:08 PM »
Scholarships do not cost the university a thing, unless you think Marquette will go bankrupt because 18 people ride free.

That's not altogether true. Georgetown has an enrollment cap mandated by the District of Columbia, so in that scenario, a scholarship athlete is not being offset by adding enrollment.

The irony is that Georgetown has the most men's sports (14) but the fewest men's scholarships (around 60).

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #339 on: July 14, 2019, 08:37:30 PM »
Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.


Nonsense.  Those "extra bodies" aren't simply walking around.  They use service that cost something.

Now, they may be using numbers that don't reflect the marginal cost of an additional 60 students, but the idea that it would be of no cost to Marquette is absolutely false.
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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #340 on: July 14, 2019, 08:54:51 PM »
Agree with you completely. When Alabama tried to shut down UAB's football program (the share the same board which is comprised of almost all bama grads) they claimed it was due to massive lost money on the football program. I believe Forbes (or some similar group) did a full outside study and showed the numbers were completely made up and the program was turning a profit. The pointed to allocation of building space and other items that were set costs and not in any way impacted by 60 extra bodies walking around.

Not accurate. Many schools are capped by how many students can be on campus. Often by available housing, meaning accepting a scholarship athlete, means accepting fewer paying students. Scholarship athletes are most definitely costing a University money.

I used to think otherwise, and then I was on committees looking at both University finances, and enrollment targets and reasons for enrollment caps.

Cheeks

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #341 on: July 14, 2019, 09:13:19 PM »

OK I'm going to unpack this gem a few steps at a time.

First, it is completely irrelevant how good a club team is.  The quality of players at the D1 varsity level will be much higher.  The expectations for facilities and the demands for training and conditioning will be well beyond what a club team has. 

Second, "scholarships do not cost the university a thing?"  Are you insane?  Those students take up places in classrooms.  They receive academic support and advising.  They take up rooms in residence halls.  They eat.  They get professional level strength training.  All for free.  Now the marginal cost of adding additional athletes is less than the list cost of a scholarship no doubt.  But the idea that scholarships would be a no cost proposition for the University is absolutely laughable. 

Finally, you are also wrong about facilities.  Marquette has facilities for a sport like men's volleyball.  They had facilities in place when they added lacrosse.  If they piggyback it onto a new rec center, they could also have facilities for swimming and diving.  (A sport that the BE offers.)  They would have to lease facilities for hockey for both practice and competition.  And that's expensive.

Not completely irrelevant on the club side.  When MU added women’s soccer back in my day, part of the reason was the success of our women’s club program.  There was some excitement over it and some momentum that helped to get interest going.  I agree on the talent, sort of.  Again, back to men’s volleyball...MU has several kids on the volleyball program the last few years that were offered scholarships to play D1 vball and they declined.  Some of the kids from Puerto Rico are outstanding.  Overall, you are right the talent and depth would obviously be better at D1, the issue on vball side is there are so few D1 programs that really good talent has nowhere to go because  or lack of opportunity.
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Herman Cain

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #342 on: July 14, 2019, 09:36:10 PM »
Not accurate. Many schools are capped by how many students can be on campus. Often by available housing, meaning accepting a scholarship athlete, means accepting fewer paying students. Scholarship athletes are most definitely costing a University money.

I used to think otherwise, and then I was on committees looking at both University finances, and enrollment targets and reasons for enrollment caps.
The sports that are equivalency for the purposes of athletic scholarships (that is fixed scholarships fractionally spread among many students )  are net tuition payers. The sport scholarships  offered are ,in most cases, in lieu of academic scholarships.

Division 3 schools who need to fill capacity are added sports are rapid rates.

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #343 on: July 15, 2019, 11:56:34 AM »
Not completely irrelevant on the club side.  When MU added women’s soccer back in my day, part of the reason was the success of our women’s club program.  There was some excitement over it and some momentum that helped to get interest going.  I agree on the talent, sort of.  Again, back to men’s volleyball...MU has several kids on the volleyball program the last few years that were offered scholarships to play D1 vball and they declined.  Some of the kids from Puerto Rico are outstanding.  Overall, you are right the talent and depth would obviously be better at D1, the issue on vball side is there are so few D1 programs that really good talent has nowhere to go because  or lack of opportunity.
Volleyball in PR is big. There are pro leagues for men and women. Almost every highschool has a male varsity volleyball team. You can earn decent coin in Europe and Asia pro leagues.

Marcus92

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #344 on: July 15, 2019, 01:13:36 PM »
Back to the original topic, it's interesting what UConn has been saying (or not saying) about what the move means for the football program. Here are some comments from a recent interview with Jim Calhoun, who says he "wasn't directly involved" but has "talked to people in the administration about it...over the last couple of years":

"I do still think there's going to be a lot of movement in college athletics, so we've got to have a football team to help take us there...we're a major academic institution, so we have to make sure we hold onto our football."

UConn and its supporters still seems fixated on the idea of being a "major academic institution" and that football is essential to their success. It's hard to tell whether that's residual delusion, or if it's merely lip service at this point.

https://www.espn.com/espys/story/_/id/27175592/espy-winner-jim-calhoun-talks-coaching-big-east-more

Here's a recent take from AAC commissioner Mike Aresco:

"Connecticut has expressed a desire of going back to a romanticized past that was the former Big East. It would typically be very rare for a large state university to do that based off basketball. If you are in college athletics at the highest level, you need to be all in with football."

The last sentence seems to sum up UConn's strategy for the past 20+ years. (See "major academic institution" above.) The move to the Big East would suggest they view things differently now.

Aresco also stated that there's "not a chance" of UConn remaining in the American Athletic Conference as a football-only member.

https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy/ac-cs-aresco-uconn-0704-story.html

UConn has now formally withdrawn from the AAC. But there's been no further public comment from the school president, athletic director or coach Edsall about the future of the football program.

https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-aac-withdrawal-letter-20190710-20190711-o32vay7xmrhajavvbqvrrimmt4-story.html

And here's a closer look at the financial picture from the Hartford Courant:

https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-uconn-big-east-athletic-department-finances-20190709-20190711-ljy7yf6covbvbftbc3l6pyn72i-story.html
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 01:22:58 PM by Marcus92 »
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #345 on: July 15, 2019, 01:21:02 PM »
"Connecticut has expressed a desire of going back to a romanticized past that was the former Big East. It would typically be very rare for a large state university to do that based off basketball. If you are in college athletics at the highest level, you need to be all in with football."


This quote is pretty amazing.  The first sentence seems to be unnecessarily hostile.  The past was pretty great.  Not sure what is "romanticized" about it.

The second sentence is quickly refuted when you look at schools like Kentucky, Kansas, Indiana and North Carolina. You could even throw in schools like Virginia, Louisville and Maryland.  You can establish a national brand in athletics basked on basketball success. One could argue that UConn already had that before it started making decisions based on football. 
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Marcus92

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #346 on: July 15, 2019, 02:15:04 PM »
Here are some highlights from a good podcast on the topic, The Wheelhouse hosted by John Dankosky from Connecticut Public Radio. The guests include CPR's Colin McEnroe, Dr. Jonathan Wharton of Southern Connecticut State University and Christine Stuart of CTNewsJunkie.com:

McEnroe: "Doing nothing was not an option. According to NCAA figures, UConn subsidizes its athletics more than any university in the country...We've chosen basketball over football, there's no question about that."

"The most powerful person in the conversation always has been Tom Ritter, former Speaker of the House. He's probably more than anybody else the reason we got into Division IA football in the first place. I'm wondering who's going to make the decision about what we do with the football team now."

"Do we ever learn a lesson from any of this? If the UConn football program were a patient, it would be wearing a DNR bracelet. This is not a healthy program right now. It was 1-11 last year, people are not coming to the games. It is going to take a tremendous secondary investment after that initial large public investment to make that into any kind of competitive program."

"Do you cut your losses? Or do you deal with this as a set of sunk costs that you ultimately have to make work for you somehow? I'd like to see that debate happen in a very rational way. I don't think that debate will happen in a rational way."

Stuart: "Nobody has been held accountable for the spending that did happen as if they were in a Power 5 conference -- when they weren't in a Power 5 conference. This whole thing is happening at a time of transition for the university, a transition between presidents. So it feels like nobody is going to be held accountable for this...the taxpayers have been put out on a limb here."

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/641550318/the-wheelhouse
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Marcus92

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #347 on: July 15, 2019, 03:33:48 PM »
The "major public university" emphasis is what I find most difficult to understand. While UConn is highly regarded as a university (generally ranked among the top 100 nationally), they're nowhere close to P5 schools when it comes to resources.

UConn has compared itself to the University of Michigan -- a consensus Top 30 school nationally with a $9 billion budget and an endowment of $12 billion. UConn, meanwhile, has a $2.4 billion budget (roughly a quarter the size of Michigan's) and an endowment of $450 million (a 20-to-1 difference).

Or, as stated in the podcast, UConn has been spending like a P5 school when they're not a P5 school in any way, shape or form.

Why would Connecticut legislators and university officials believe that reaching a similar level is a realistic goal? How was Division IA football alone going to be the deciding factor in elevating the university -- especially in an area of the country where you can count the number of successful, high-level football programs on one hand? That list pretty much begins and ends with Syracuse and Boston College. I guess you could include Rutgers if you really want to. Beyond that, schools like Penn State and Maryland are a stretch (central Pennsylvania and the Chesapeake Bay are hundreds of miles from the northeastern United Sates).

UConn has made some very questionable decisions regarding football over the past 20+ years. I'll be very interested to see what they do moving forward.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 05:01:17 PM by Marcus92 »
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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #348 on: July 15, 2019, 04:12:29 PM »
Volleyball in PR is big. There are pro leagues for men and women. Almost every highschool has a male varsity volleyball team. You can earn decent coin in Europe and Asia pro leagues.

I worked with an engineer from PR.  He had a part time job as the volleyball coach at a local D-III college.

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #349 on: July 15, 2019, 04:19:29 PM »
I worked with an engineer from PR.  He had a part time job as the volleyball coach at a local D-III college.

At my town's rec center, there are a group of middle-aged men who appear to be of Southeast Asian descent who play volleyball there every Sunday.  There is never more than one hit per side (special Pakistani rules, perhaps?).  The most common way of hitting it is to clench both fists together and use an overhand swing to punch the ball.  It's very entertaining to watch.
Have some patience, FFS.

 

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