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Author Topic: UConn to BE Rumors  (Read 154375 times)

skianth16

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #500 on: January 07, 2020, 08:47:04 AM »
Great points made by GoldenWarrior above. The round robin can be fun, but it has its downsides as well.

Another benefit to potential expansion is growing the geographic area of interest, which can grow the fan base, increase revenues, and provide additional recruiting pipelines. I see a lot of upside in conference expansion, but there is a possibility of degrading the brand with the wrong addition(s). I love that we'll have UConn back soon, and I think some additional new blood could be exciting. 


The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #501 on: January 07, 2020, 08:53:09 AM »
The BE members have stated pretty clearly they want to keep the round robin.
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LloydsLegs

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #502 on: January 07, 2020, 09:14:48 AM »
Aside:  In his most recent podcast, Andy Katz rated the BE over the B1G as the current best conference.  ACC # 5 and SEC # 6.

MU82

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #503 on: January 07, 2020, 09:35:59 AM »
Notre Dame is the only other school that should be considered, barring some really shocking football decisions from Duke or Kansas, or possibly a major relocation from Gonzaga. (None of which are happening)

Agree with this 100%.

A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.

I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.

I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.

Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...

In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.

Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #504 on: January 07, 2020, 10:06:51 AM »
Agree with this 100%.

A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.

I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.

I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.

Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...

In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.

Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.

Agreed.  I think the round robin is one of the best things about the BigEast, and I'd hate to see them sacrifice that -- especially for the likes of Dayton.  If they are going to expand and lose the round robin, it absolutely has to be an absolutely too-good-to-pass-up addition.  In the current landscape, I just don't see anyone.  Notre Dame would fit the bill if they cut ties with the ACC, but I honestly think the only move that would ever make sense for ND would be the Big10.
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Herman Cain

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #505 on: January 07, 2020, 10:08:46 AM »
The round robin is a tremendous asset for The Big East. Single most important thing to building our conference is the development of rivalries and the personalities of the coaches and recognition of the players. The round robin very effectively does that . The original Big East was such a great conference because it had all three of these factors.

In order to get high seeds, the teams in the conference have to be relevant  on an absolute basis nationally. That means having a strong non conference schedule and then winning some of the key games. 

Big 12 is also round robin and they are consistently putting a very high percentage of teams in the tournament.  Cannibalization also forces every team in the conference to improve or get left behind. As we have seen this year in the Big East the laggards of recent years have all improved.

As far as expansion goes, we do not need any more teams. This conference is a bear as it is. Next year will get even tougher with the addition of U Conn. What we need is for a second program to get to the level of where Villanova is.
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #506 on: January 07, 2020, 10:10:18 AM »
Aside:  In his most recent podcast, Andy Katz rated the BE over the B1G as the current best conference.  ACC # 5 and SEC # 6.

That's impressive coming from Mr. Big 10 himself.

MikeDeanesDarkGlasses

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #507 on: January 07, 2020, 10:13:09 AM »
Maybe Patrick Ewing can make a stride and take Gtown up another level. If DePaul could get their young talent in line, they'd improve significantly as well.  I watched DePaul and they have some horses, but they're highly disorganized.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #508 on: January 07, 2020, 10:19:14 AM »
Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.

MU82

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #509 on: January 07, 2020, 11:00:00 AM »
The round robin is a tremendous asset for The Big East. Single most important thing to building our conference is the development of rivalries and the personalities of the coaches and recognition of the players. The round robin very effectively does that . The original Big East was such a great conference because it had all three of these factors.

In order to get high seeds, the teams in the conference have to be relevant  on an absolute basis nationally. That means having a strong non conference schedule and then winning some of the key games. 

Big 12 is also round robin and they are consistently putting a very high percentage of teams in the tournament.  Cannibalization also forces every team in the conference to improve or get left behind. As we have seen this year in the Big East the laggards of recent years have all improved.

As far as expansion goes, we do not need any more teams. This conference is a bear as it is. Next year will get even tougher with the addition of U Conn. What we need is for a second program to get to the level of where Villanova is.

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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #510 on: January 07, 2020, 11:02:58 AM »
Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.

Completely forgot about Texas. Hard to believe the Longhorn Network launched over 8 years ago now.

Was supposed to be the death of the Big 12 yet there they still are...

Benny B

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #511 on: January 07, 2020, 11:27:29 AM »
Looking back at the conference realignments, it looks like the BE won. The B1G won because of media revenues, although Maryland fans still not pleased and Rutgers is a rock on quality. The ACC has more revenue but it's sports quality has fallen. The AAC is a loser and the A10 is less of a mid-major than it was. The MVC held ground while CUSA and the Horizon became more irrelevant. More improbably, the B12 held together with adding WVU, mainly because Texas sucked all of a sudden and with it their lust to leave left.

Although Chicos would disagree, I'm sure there are many people sweating about how much they've invested into the rights and/or distribution of college sports given the barbell of Millennials and Boomers cutting the cord (or pulling the plug... whatever euphemism you wish to insert).  Frankly, the only sustainable sports rights model right now is the Big East. 

Hell, I'd go so far to speculate that the AAC and A10 have more sustainable rights deals than the ACC, B?G and P12 (simply on the basis that pricing is inline with quality once UCONN leaves).  It may take 10-15 years to play out, but B?G will be the first to fall*, followed closely by the other two. 

SEC and B12** will live on for a little while longer because while Bubba says it is the gun you can pry from his cold, dead hands, the truth is that he'd happily give Bloomy every weapon he owns, even his Super Soakers, just to keep his pornbox cable on... unfortunately, B?G foosball and hoops doesn't even have a tenth of the draw in the Midwest/East Coast as fast cars going in circles does in the South.

* "fall" as in a decimation of the revenues being delivered to the schools for sports rights, not that the conferences are going out of business.

** By design, the future of the B12 depends entirely on what Texas does to share/pillage TV revenues.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #512 on: January 07, 2020, 11:35:14 AM »
Agree with this 100%.

A year ago at this time, I said the only 3 schools that interested me were Notre Dame, UConn and Gonzaga.

I (and many others) doubted whether ND or Gonzaga were possible. UConn was, and I'm glad we got them.

I get what GoldenWarriors is saying, but I think 11 schools will be perfect. I love the round robin. Most years, a couple/few programs will stand out enough to get high seeds IMHO.

Last year, nobody got higher than a 5 seed, but ...

In 2018 BE had two No. 1 seeds; in 2017 BE had a 1 and a 4; in 2016 BE had two 2s; in 2015 BE had a 1 and a 4; and in 2014 BE had a 2 and 3.

Played round robins all of those years. Everything is cyclical.

Some push back:

In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).

In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).

In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's. 

We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting.  I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom.  How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year?  Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4).  Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run?  Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.

The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin. 

The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt.  I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #513 on: January 07, 2020, 11:40:14 AM »
Only problem i have with the round robin is playing every team twice is h b arder.  Throw out the SOS or the NET playing team a second time regardless of their ranking is significantly harder due to familiarity.  Their is nothing built into Kenpom or the NET to account for this and this hurts the BE.
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MU82

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #514 on: January 07, 2020, 11:48:24 AM »
Some push back:

In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).

In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).

In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's. 

We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting.  I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom.  How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year?  Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4).  Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run?  Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.

The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin. 

The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt.  I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.

Reasonable points. Thanks for the discussion.
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CTWarrior

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #515 on: January 07, 2020, 11:50:51 AM »
Only problem i have with the round robin is playing every team twice is h b arder.  Throw out the SOS or the NET playing team a second time regardless of their ranking is significantly harder due to familiarity.  Their is nothing built into Kenpom or the NET to account for this and this hurts the BE.
I don't buy this.  Both teams are playing each other for the second time, so any advantage for knowing how to play the opponent applies to both teams.  One team has to win and one team has to lose.  I think the home team effect is the major bias leading to splits in round robin play.
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Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #516 on: January 07, 2020, 11:53:36 AM »
I don't buy this.  Both teams are playing each other for the second time, so any advantage for knowing how to play the opponent applies to both teams.  One team has to win and one team has to lose.  I think the home team effect is the major bias leading to splits in round robin play.

Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home  or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?
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CTWarrior

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #517 on: January 07, 2020, 11:54:44 AM »
Some push back:

In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).

In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).

In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's. 

We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting.  I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom.  How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year?  Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4).  Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run?  Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.

The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin. 

The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt.  I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
Couldn't it be that the teams that got those seeds got them because that is about how good they were?  I think our seeds have been reasonable based on the quality of our teams, which besides Villanova and some other team every year is generally very good but not great.  Not sure how eliminating the round robin would help, particularly since it could hurt depending on which teams you face twice.
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CTWarrior

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #518 on: January 07, 2020, 11:57:18 AM »
Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home  or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?
I honestly don't think it matters.  Would care much more about the match-ups than the rematch angle.
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cheebs09

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #519 on: January 07, 2020, 11:58:36 AM »
Its a detriment to the better team and advantageous to the weaker.
Would u rather play at Depaul for a second time after playing them at home  or at Rutgers for the first time assuming Rutgers n Depaul are equal?

It’s possible the better team widens the gap with better coaching and players. I would think it’s easier for the worse team to pull out some surprise tactic and win once than if there was already some data on a game earlier in the year.

Its DJOver

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #520 on: January 07, 2020, 12:03:36 PM »
Last year, out first meeting with DePaul was in Milwaukee, and despite winning by 10, it was a 2 possessions game with 90 seconds to go.  Our second meeting with DePaul was in Chicago, and we won by 19, and the lead was in double digits the entire second half.

We R Final Four

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #521 on: January 07, 2020, 12:16:28 PM »
I hope it stays at 11.
However, I could see an east/west division if a ND or UD or Zags are added.
West—MU Creighton Butler DePaul X and future team.

East—PC George S Hall Nova STJ UConn.
H/H within division with crossover games with east.
Again, hope it stays as is.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #522 on: January 07, 2020, 12:17:29 PM »
Last year, out first meeting with DePaul was in Milwaukee, and despite winning by 10, it was a 2 possessions game with 90 seconds to go.  Our second meeting with DePaul was in Chicago, and we won by 19, and the lead was in double digits the entire second half.

Did DU have more of their fans in FF? 

As an aside, with the BET, some teams have to play each other up to three times depending on their draw. Brutal.

Herman Cain

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #523 on: January 07, 2020, 12:18:26 PM »
Some push back:

In 2018 (where Nova and X were both #1s), every other program had a seed #8 or lower; hardly promising to get to the second weekend (which is what the league's new goal should be: more teams deeper with regularity).

In 2017, where the BE had seven bids (again, very impressive), Nova was a #1, but we only had one other top-4 seed (Butler); Creighton was a #6 (upset by Rhode Island), and the rest were #8 seeds or lower (again low probability of getting out of first weekend).

In 2016, we had two #2's and a #6, as well as two #9's. 

We can definitely improve upon the seeds, not bids, that the Big East is currently getting.  I guess the "problem" is that it becomes most difficult in a round robin where you consistently have strong teams playing each other, especially in a year that lacks a true bottom.  How does the ACC regularly get multiple teams to the Sweet 16 every year?  Not only do they get the bids, but they get the high seeds as well (#1-#4).  Do higher seeds guarantee a deeper run?  Of course not, but it definitely increases the odds.

The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin. 

The Big East is committed to the RR for the foreseeable future, no doubt.  I guess it will just be interesting to see the data once UConn is in tow, and what adjustments (if any) there is to the league's postseason success.
If you listen to the interview that is done each year with the head of the NCAA Selection committee, they consistently emphasize strength of schedule and rewarding teams that play a hard schedule and win some of the games.  For example, It is why Michigan State consistently gets high seeds, even though they may not always have the best record. They play top level teams in non conference and then go through the gauntlet of their own conference.

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BrewCity83

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Re: UConn to BE Rumors
« Reply #524 on: January 07, 2020, 12:28:12 PM »
The only way to increase the seeds would be to go past 11 and (most likely) eliminate the round robin. 

No.  You can increase the seeds by playing a stronger non-con schedule.  Not only by playing more top teams, but by playing less sub-200 teams.

Don't f*ck with the round robin schedule.
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