MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 01:52:15 PM

Title: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 01:52:15 PM
1.   Yeah, those posts need to be fed more. :o
2.  Maryland did a great job of chasing Markus off his spots. And they kept switching to make sure the next guy chased him off the line, too.  Great job on defense.  Complete sellout to stop Markus.   But shooters gotta keep shooting.    Next adjustment to Markus and Wojo. 
3.   When did Theo get small?   And tentative?
4.   Brendan Bailey, welcome to the party, pal.   That is the kind of offensive game I have been expecting.   Maybe not quite this many, but I fully expected him to average double digits this year.     
5.   Koby and Markus = snakebit today.   Can't have them both playing poorly. 
6.  Liked the little zone wrinkle.   It worked for a few possessions.   But rebounding out of a zone is always an issue.   
7.  MU's help in man defense was  slow today, too.   I got it during the first couple games, running teams off the line.  I thought it was a conscious choice.   Today, quicker help was needed. 
8.  Jayce gave a glimpse today, too.   7 foot, throwing himself around with reckless abandon.   Only big getting offensive rebounds.   Start him.   He is playing best of the bigs. 
9.   So, Bailey, Johnson, Sacar played well.   Not enough.   But something. 
10. Maryland is undefeated and ranked #5 for a reason.  Very talented and high energy on every possession today.   Kudos to them. 
11.  I still believe in the upside of this team.   Time to go back to work.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: manesworld on December 01, 2019, 01:55:50 PM
Bailey, Koby, and Sacar are either good or horrendous. Need to get that to “either good or okay.” If we can get them there the team will be solid.

I hope we’re done crying when our bigs only get 1 shot attempt in a game. There’s a reason for it. Jayce understands it and seems to be getting more up to speed. I think he’ll be a big piece for us come Big East play.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 01:58:14 PM
Learned the team isnt one dimensional. But unfortunately took the whole first half to find a new identity.

This one reminds me of the Old Spice classic game where the team just ran out of gas against FL state.

Feel like this team has a much higher ceiling after this tournament. Specifically this game. Hurts today to lose, but should help in the long run
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: AirPunch on December 01, 2019, 01:58:58 PM
Agree on all the points. This team will just be hit or miss. If Markus was rolling it would have been a great game. Nice to see some of the other guys mentioned step up.

What I’m extremely concerned about is the guards on the roster for NEXT season. MU needs to pull a rabbit out of the hat (Mane?) or hit the grad transfer market. They need a serious talent upgrade at the 1 and 2 positions for next year unless Bailey moves to the 2.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 01, 2019, 01:59:54 PM
Really bad first half. 
Really bad Markus (the goat today, but not why MU lost).
Encouraging signs in second half (Bailey, Anim, JJ). 
Played them even in second half.
Good adjustment to zone.

Disappointing, but I'm moving on.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
This one reminds me of the Old Spice classic game where the team just ran out of gas against FL state.

Nice comp.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Johnny B on December 01, 2019, 02:02:06 PM
Possibly worst markus game since high school. Played better in second half. A few silver linings like BB etc but it was a complete blowout and MU was really never in it. Tough to watch but this team has potential.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:02:35 PM
Big Johnson with 11 rebounds.  BB with 27 points and 6 rebounds.  Sacar with 21 points.

Maryland really good.  Overall a good result for the tournament on the whole.  A lot of work to do, plenty of good things came out of it. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: BM1090 on December 01, 2019, 02:03:10 PM
Trying to look at the big picture. Rough performance but I thought the coaching was okay. Markus hits a few early shots and the game is different. He was bad today. It happens. Jayce looked much improved.

Bailey hopefully gets going after this. Sacar had a nice stretch. 5-2 with a quad 1 win, two quad 2 wins and two harmless (and ugly) losses. Avoid losing to the bunnies at home and it's a good non conference. Do that and beat KSU and it's a great one.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 01, 2019, 02:04:22 PM
As bad as the first half was, there was a lot to like in the second half. I feel like we cleaned up some of the mistakes in the second half, and the effort from the whole team stayed constant, making the last 20 minutes pretty competitive. If Markus hits even 25% of his FG attempts, we're right there today. Unfortunately, he was just ice cold.

Our bigs got some nice looks but were just awful at finishing around the rim. Theo just has to be better on offense. I don't know why he's such a weak guy on offense but such a strong presence on defense. Bring in on the other end too, big fella!

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: nyg on December 01, 2019, 02:05:26 PM
Only good thing was Bailey.  Hope this game provides him with the confidence to move forward this year and especially next year.  All it takes is one game like this to change everything significantly.  He looked extremely confident after making some of those shots, you could tell by his expressions.  Nice job.



Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: CTWarrior on December 01, 2019, 02:05:50 PM
Nice comp.
I don't think so.  We were in that FSU game right to the end.  Today we just got hammered by a better team who was focused.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: CTWarrior on December 01, 2019, 02:07:09 PM
Trying to look at the big picture. Rough performance but I thought the coaching was okay. Markus hits a few early shots and the game is different. He was bad today. It happens. Jayce looked much improved.

Markus was bad today because he was really well defended by players with quickness and length.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on December 01, 2019, 02:07:55 PM
1.Ran into a top 5 team that played their best ball of the year. 
2.Markus isn't going to shoot 1-12 or 13 or whatever very often. 
3. This loss isn't going to hurt one iota. 
4. Ideally. Need to avoid another non-con loss.
5. I like or chances if Sacar and more importantly Bailey play anything like they did today.  Wow!
6. Not convinced Koby is very good yet.  He most definitely wasn't this weekend.
7. Yawn tournament for the Detroit boys. 
8. 2 out of 3 with a loss to Maryland is about as good as we could have hoped for before the first game Thursday night.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 02:08:36 PM
Markus was bad today because he was really well defended by players with quickness and length.

Even when he got shots they were short. Fatigue was definitely a factor. Would have been nice to win this, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: BM1090 on December 01, 2019, 02:08:51 PM
Markus was bad today because he was really well defended by players with quickness and length.

Agreed. That makes it tougher. But he's had great games against other teams with quickness and length.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 01, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Only good thing was Bailey. Hope this game provides him with the confidence to move forward this year and especially next year.  All it takes is one game like this to change everything significantly.  He looked extremely confident after making some of those shots, you could tell by his expressions.  Nice job.

Strongly disagree.

Jayce had a big day on the glass against a really good big. Sacar had some great drives and hit some nice shots. The zone worked well to get Maryland off their game.

There is plenty to work on and improve, but Bailey wasn't the only good thing today.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: GoldenEagles32 on December 01, 2019, 02:09:26 PM
Teams are going guard markus the same way maryland did today, they'll find a way around it
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on December 01, 2019, 02:10:50 PM
Not in shape enough to play three in a short time stretch. Jayce showed he can be a stud in the post against NBA prospects. He was a man under the rim. Brendan got a chance to build his confidence and Sacar came through. This is an extremely talent Maryland and they were hot today. Our shots didn't fall .  At least we lost in the Championship game. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 02:13:01 PM
Scoopers fault for not starting a 'Maryland is evil' thread.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Warrior2008 on December 01, 2019, 02:13:49 PM
I liked the fight they had in the second half, could’ve easily folded and lost by 30+ when they went down 26 a couple minutes into the second half.  Jayce and Brendan were bright spots and hopefully this is a spring board for them going forward. Sacar also played well too.  That said Markus can’t be an all or nothing player or we’re going to be a borderline bubble team at best. I understand he’s a threat to score and start a run at any point, but when he starts forcing shots on days like today where he’s not hitting, it’s too easy for the opponent and momentum killers for us. And today unlike at Wisconsin, we had other players stepping up.

There’s no shame in losing to a team like Maryland though, they’re top 5 for a reason and we played toe to toe with them in the second half. To me, that’s progress.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: NickelDimer on December 01, 2019, 02:15:53 PM
Bold take: I saw more good today than bad and I think our ceiling is higher after today’s game than it was before today’s game
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 02:16:47 PM
I liked the fight they had in the second half, could’ve easily folded and lost by 30+ when they went down 26 a couple minutes into the second half.  Jayce and Brendan were bright spots and hopefully this is a spring board for them going forward. Sacar also played well too.  That said Markus can’t be an all or nothing player or we’re going to be a borderline bubble team at best. I understand he’s a threat to score and start a run at any point, but when he starts forcing shots on days like today where he’s not hitting, it’s too easy for the opponent and momentum killers for us. And today unlike at Wisconsin, we had other players stepping up.

There’s no shame in losing to a team like Maryland though, they’re top 5 for a reason and we played toe to toe with them in the second half. To me, that’s progress.

Win at Wisconsin if the secondary cast plays like today. So it goes. Team is growing into roles left from certain departures. Beat K State and the rest of the noncon, and we will be in good shape for BEast
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: AlumKCof93 on December 01, 2019, 02:17:16 PM
Losing by 20 is what happens when you play a more talented, longer team playing at a high level when you play less than your best.  It happens.  I thought Marquette played hard and encouraged by showings of bailey and Johnson. its Disappointing loss, but like to players show at this time of season
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 02:17:21 PM
Bold take: I saw more good today than bad and I think our ceiling is higher after today’s game than it was before today’s game
I agree.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 01, 2019, 02:19:39 PM
Not in shape enough to play three in a short time stretch. Jayce showed he can be a stud in the post against NBA prospects. He was a man under the rim. Brendan got a chance to build his confidence and Sacar came through. This is an extremely talent Maryland and they were hot today. Our shots didn't fall .  At least we lost in the Championship game.

Why would this be true for us but not Marlyand? Every team is in the same position right now.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Johnny B on December 01, 2019, 02:21:14 PM
More good than bad in a complete blowout? You must have low expectations for this team. Sure there was some good but a 21 point blowout should never be considered mostly good
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: 1SE on December 01, 2019, 02:23:35 PM
Maryland is good. Easy to see them as a final four team. We are not a final four team.

Markus really struggle with tall athletic guards.also legs were really tired clearly.

I'd prefer not to have lost by 20 but overall a good tourney.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 02:24:26 PM
More good than bad in a complete blowout? You must have low expectations for this team. Sure there was some good but a 21 point blowout should never be considered mostly good

Never change, Jonny. Keep on hating everything.

You're less if a glass half empty person and more of a "the fact we have to use a glass shows we have failed on an evolutionary level." Keep on keeping on
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 02:26:00 PM
Today wasn't about what Marquette didn't do, it is about what Maryland DID do.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Johnny B on December 01, 2019, 02:28:04 PM
Never change, Jonny. Keep on hating everything.

You're less if a glass half empty person and more of a "the fact we have to use a glass shows we have failed on an evolutionary level." Keep on keeping on
How ridiculous. Think you have the wrong jonny. A disagreement about "more good than bad" is NOT hate. I agreed with all the positives today and said this team has potential. I did also say it frustrating and a blowout cuz it was. There was no hate anywhere. Good day
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: NickelDimer on December 01, 2019, 02:28:32 PM
Today wasn't about what Marquette didn't do, it is about what Maryland DID do.
Their first half defense was as good as a defense can play.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 01, 2019, 02:29:02 PM
Strongly disagree.

Jayce had a big day on the glass against a really good big. Sacar had some great drives and hit some nice shots. The zone worked well to get Maryland off their game.

There is plenty to work on and improve, but Bailey wasn't the only good thing today.

Agreed, the team is starting to get their sea legs.   Bailey, Jayce and Sacar for starters.   I think for the most part they played with some fight as well (minus a few plays at the end of the game where they let the player in the middle of the zone get uncontested looks).   Several shots went in and out, lots of long offensive rebounds for Maryland and our all American had a bad game (in the second half he looked exhausted after trying al game to get open).

This game will help us going forward.  Should be a much improved team by March.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:29:19 PM
Never change, Jonny. Keep on hating everything.

You're less if a glass half empty person and more of a "the fact we have to use a glass shows we have failed on an evolutionary level." Keep on keeping on

There's Johnny B and there's Jonny09....
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:30:47 PM
Why would this be true for us but not Marlyand? Every team is in the same position right now.

All teams different, some are deeper than others...some have had more difficult games, some haven't.  Difficult to compare necessarily.  I get your point, the situations are similar, but the makeup of teams so different.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 02:31:02 PM
There's Johnny B and there's Jonny09....

Dammit. It's after a loss. I just assume its the negative one
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 01, 2019, 02:31:20 PM
Losing by 20 is what happens when you play a more talented, longer team playing at a high level when you play less than your best.

Are they a longer team than us? It seemed like a pretty even pairing to me. I don't think we'll see many teams that are noticeably bigger/longer than us this year. We have 2 good sized guards in Koby and Sacar, good options at the wing with Brendan and Jamal, and then between Theo and Jayce we got both height and strength.

It might be fair to say that playing a team with length bothers us. But I don't think they were bigger/longer than us. At least not to an extent that should matter.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Eldon on December 01, 2019, 02:33:10 PM
Never change, Jonny. Keep on hating everything.

You're less if a glass half empty person and more of a "the fact we have to use a glass shows we have failed on an evolutionary level." Keep on keeping on

+1

People poo poo Johnny but an organization/message board is always stronger when you have both sides of an argument.

You keep being you, Johnny.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Johnny B on December 01, 2019, 02:34:53 PM
Am I seriously that controversial on this board or are people confusing me with jonny09?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 01, 2019, 02:35:35 PM
Am I seriously that controversial on this board or are people confusing me with jonny09?

The latter in my case.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: dgies9156 on December 01, 2019, 02:35:46 PM
A couple of thoughts:

1) This proved the pre-Hausershima rating of 4 was unrealistic. Had the Hausers not defected, I don't think the outcome of this game would have been materially different. We are not their equal yet.

2) Not sure what's up with Theo on the offensive side. But, man, the guy MUST finish. Jam the ball through the cylinder and take the defender with it if you have to. Or break the guy's hand but for crying out loud, don't let him stop you! You are Theo, you're better than that.

3) Sacar and Brendan had something to build on. If they can keep this up, they'll have to take pressure off Markus and then......

4) If Jayce isn't starting by January 2, 2020, he's either injured again or Wojo needs his head examined.

5) Dan Dakish is stupid. His comments about our 1977 team (which he referred to as our 1979 team), especially Jerome's shot, were off base. The refs were looking NO, JEROME DID NOT COMMIT BASKET INTERFERENCE. Crawl back in your Bobby Knight hole, Dan. That debate has been going on for years and all you proved is you are an idiot.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
Am I seriously that controversial on this board or are people confusing me with jonny09?

Just admit you are the same person...and Billy Hoyle, Dad, Pakuni and others....
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Johnny B on December 01, 2019, 02:37:33 PM
.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:40:33 PM
I am ners,willie, and tamu. Multiple personalities  8-)

Everyone knows ners and TAMU are the same people....good call.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 02:43:46 PM
A couple of thoughts:

1) This proved the pre-Hausershima rating of 4 was unrealistic. Had the Hausers not defected, I don't think the outcome of this game would have been materially different. We are not their equal yet.

2) Not sure what's up with Theo on the offensive side. But, man, the guy MUST finish. Jam the ball through the cylinder and take the defender with it if you have to. Or break the guy's hand but for crying out loud, don't let him stop you! You are Theo, you're better than that.

3) Sacar and Brendan had something to build on. If they can keep this up, they'll have to take pressure off Markus and then......

4) If Jayce isn't starting by January 2, 2020, he's either injured again or Wojo needs his head examined.

5) Dan Dakish is stupid. His comments about our 1977 team (which he referred to as our 1979 team), especially Jerome's shot, were off base. The refs were looking NO, JEROME DID NOT COMMIT BASKET INTERFERENCE. Crawl back in your Bobby Knight hole, Dan. That debate has been going on for years and all you proved is you are an idiot.

I think it depends on who we are playing.  There will be teams where he is not going to look good because of speed and agility. 

I've seen enough of Sacar that he will remain inconsistent.  I have had high opes for BB since last year, still think he can be an all-timer at MU.  Hopefully today is the start, but he has the tools.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 02:44:20 PM
There were some good things today as others have said...just not enough to get the win and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters. That being said, we saw a different team in this tournament then we had seen previously, so that's a good thing. I do think if Wojo ever gets to run his two bigs offense like he has talked about(before Jayce got hurt), it will actually help the whole offense some, especially Markus. They SHOULD win out the rest of the non conference now and head into Creighton in good shape. It's all about the Big East season.

This is who Jayce is when he's healthy, a glass cleaner, good defender etc. We will see more of it going forward. Someone mentioned, Jayce does a better job of fouling than the other bigs...that is VERY true. His fouls aren't stupid, his fouls are typically hard and prevent a basket. Theo's are ticky tack(and sometimes not always his fault).
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 01, 2019, 02:45:15 PM
This reminds me a bit of watching FSU in the tourney last year.  We don’t have the athletes to out-athlete the top 15 or so teams.  To win we would need to impose our will or game plan on them.

Good of course was BB, Jayce and Sacar all coming alive. 

UMD’s game plan was smart and well executed.  This is a similarity in our two losses.  I still can’t figure out what we are trying to be on O.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Herman Cain on December 01, 2019, 02:45:47 PM
We played a team that had more talent than we did.  They had a very good defensive strategy that was well executed. So we ended up losing big.

 
Brendan, Sacar and Jayce added value today. Hopefully, the team can build on that.
 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 01, 2019, 02:50:25 PM
Scoopers fault for not starting a 'Maryland is evil' thread.

With never having a match-up before, we couldn't be certain they were evil.  Now we know better...
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: WarriorPride68 on December 01, 2019, 02:52:46 PM
7-33 shooting for Markus in the two losses in which MU lost by 37 points combined
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Warrior2008 on December 01, 2019, 02:55:26 PM
This reminds me a bit of watching FSU in the tourney last year.  We don’t have the athletes to out-athlete the top 15 or so teams.  To win we would need to impose our will or game plan on them.

Good of course was BB, Jayce and Sacar all coming alive. 

UMD’s game plan was smart and well executed.  This is a similarity in our two losses.  I still can’t figure out what we are trying to be on O.

Maryland’s defense was very similar to what Purdue and Wisconsin did, hard double on all Markus ball screens and switch all Markus off ball screens. I get the feeling we’ll see that a lot and it’s gonna be up to us to adapt.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MUEng92 on December 01, 2019, 02:55:31 PM
With never having a match-up before, we couldn't be certain they were evil.  Now we know better...

I saw it on Twitter this morning.  Apparently doesn’t count
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 03:00:41 PM
End of the day, our team is a bubble team at best if Markus isn't in God mode.  IF* Markus plays in God mode, AND we see contributions similar to what we saw from Sacar, Brendan and Jayce today - we could be a Sweet 16 team.

Feeling better about things after a beat down ultimately speaks to the relatively low expectations most in our fanbase have for this team.

Maryland vaulted from 17 to 9 in Pomeroy rankings after today's win, and MU fell from 23 to 31.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 03:04:46 PM
MU has lost big to top 10 foes before.  They will again.   Most understand what we saw today.   A really good team playing high energy defense and completely selling out to stop Markus.   A good teaching moment.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: We R Final Four on December 01, 2019, 03:09:33 PM
The travels. Ed had another travel that was missed.
The turnovers on our inbound plays. Unreal.
The turnover the first time we see any press.
Not boxing out on a FT.
These things alone put you in a hole.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 03:23:32 PM


Feeling better about things after a beat down ultimately speaks to the relatively low expectations most in our fanbase have for this team.

This. nothing else. I enjoy all the different excuses though.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MUfan12 on December 01, 2019, 04:19:52 PM

Feeling better about things after a beat down ultimately speaks to the relatively low expectations most in our fanbase have for this team.


This is pretty much it.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 04:22:41 PM
This. nothing else. I enjoy all the different excuses though.

I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: IrwinFletcher on December 01, 2019, 04:31:47 PM
I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.IMHO

Fixed the end there for you Guru because it is your opinion.  If winning or losing was all that mattered, 250 programs would cease to exist because most of them can’t win.

Learning how to compete, learning how to get better, learning how to be a good teammate, those are all things that we learn in sports that help us professionally and personally in life. 

Go ahead, you have every right to lose your mind when we lose the the 5th ranked team in the country and call out players and coaches that are busting their ass, but I will chose to see that some guys are in fact learning how to compete at this level, getting better and being a good teammate.

I hope your bleeding ulcer doesn’t keep you up at night.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on December 01, 2019, 04:39:56 PM
I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.

So because we lost today you don't think Bailey's performance mattered if it helps him gain confidence and turn the corner going forward?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
Nothing good ever comes from a loss is the biggest pile of cowflop ever.   
My career is a firefighter.  We learn far more from the fires that whup us than the ones that go perfectly.
I have coached 37 different youth teams.  The ones that have skill and potential but who get humbled are far easier to coach than the ones who don't lose a game early.

The question and challenge is what you learn from a loss.   If no one learns anything, then yeah, a loss is a waste.  If you are always working to get better, then a loss is a better teacher than a blowout win.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 01, 2019, 04:50:28 PM
Nothing good ever comes from a loss.

And here I was thinking this is the most positive I've ever seen Guru after a loss.

There were some good things today as others have said..

Because you also posted this...
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: DoctorV on December 01, 2019, 04:58:50 PM
Big Johnson with 11 rebounds.  BB with 27 points and 6 rebounds.  Sacar with 21 points.

Maryland really good.  Overall a good result for the tournament on the whole.  A lot of work to do, plenty of good things came out of it.

This is good but this is an MU fan pet peeve of mines. Many would rather have Markus be pedestrian and have the others show up in a loss than vice versa.

I know he wasn’t pedestrian, he was brutal. However, this reminds me of the game sacar played the point at Gtown and MU won last yr and everyone got so happy- I get it, but don’t fool yourselves with the big picture.

My wife who loves MARQUETTE basketball but isn’t nuanced in the sport falls for this- brendan and sacar and Jayce were huge today- we need that confidence. However, it’s an outlier.

This team needs Markus plus kobe plus sacar to score 50 a night to do damage. Double digits from brendan or a combo of others would be great but don’t fall into that everyone else carries the team trap pls
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Warrior2008 on December 01, 2019, 05:02:21 PM
I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.

You’re right, Virginia learned nothing from losing early to Florida State in the ACC tournament last year. Duke on the other hand learned everything from winning the ACC tournament last year.

You might not like losing, but personally I felt a lot better about how they lost today versus how they beat Robert Morris a week ago.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: lawdog77 on December 01, 2019, 05:04:10 PM
Nothing good ever comes from a loss is the biggest pile of cowflop ever.   
My career is a firefighter.  We learn far more from the fires that whup us than the ones that go perfectly.
I have coached 37 different youth teams.  The ones that have skill and potential but who get humbled are far easier to coach than the ones who don't lose a game early.

The question and challenge is what you learn from a loss.   If no one learns anything, then yeah, a loss is a waste.  If you are always working to get better, then a loss is a better teacher than a blowout win.
exactly. W's and L's means wins and learns.

I am way too old to get upset over a loss 7 games into the season.

For the teams sake, it would seem that a loss with Markus taking 12 shots us better than a loss where markus takes 25
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU1980 on December 01, 2019, 05:12:21 PM
This. nothing else. I enjoy all the different excuses though.

Really the difference is that the intelligent, rational, posters understand that winning is a process and each game is a learning experience and good teams will adjust. The irrational posters that are not able to put together any type of rational thought into sports besides pure anger and emotion, end up looking incredibly silly most of the time. The bottom line is we had a really solid tournament and are a better team than we were a few days ago. As others have said, the players and coaches will learn just as much from today’s loss as they will from the last two wins. I am looking even more forward to next weeks games based on this tournament.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: DoctorV on December 01, 2019, 05:15:15 PM
I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.

It isn’t all black and white in life. I mean it is, but the human mind rationalized it otherwise and that’s ok.

At the end of the day MU got they ass waxed today. Down by 20 at half, down all game, overmanned, out coached, and out played. The human mind sees a career performance from Bailey, an awesome performance from Sacar and Jayce and says to itself “ok when Markus is normal and this happens we are for real.”

What’s for real is that today we had a crap Markus, crap Kobe and amazing role players and still lost by 20 to a good team. Both things can be true, having the hope when seeing the role players step up and MU just not being good enough if all cylinders aren’t rolling.


One thing is certain- at this point we can’t have one or the other. This team needs Markus being himself or at least a mini version of himself to win games v elite teams. That said, most couldn’t envision the help present for MU to become legit- the help is there, it’s just brewing itself currently.

My take? This team is legit defensively once the heart of the season rolls around. The Theo/Jayce/Ed inside monster (although not useful offensively)  to go along with the great perimeter defense will keep MU in a lot of games- average offense will win a lot and good offense will win most.

That said, MU will need 50 plus nightly from Markus plus sacar plus Kobe to beat elite teams. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on December 01, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
Ed n theo 21 minutes and 3 rebounds combined
Jayce 19 minutes n 11 rebounds.
I know ed n theo are offensively bankrupt, the biggest issue is they dont rebound either. 
Start jayce give him as many minutes as he can handle.
Wojo was slow to try the zone cant wait til ur down 26 to try something different.  Then maryland adjysted to the man in the short corner, wojo should have switched from 3-2 to 2-3 at that point, never did.
Marcus needs tge ball in his hands hes not a great pg but mcewen is worse
Bailey looked great, anything good out of Sacar is welcome but to expect consistancy from sacar is foolhardy.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: PorkysButthole on December 01, 2019, 05:36:08 PM
This is good but this is an MU fan pet peeve of mines. Many would rather have Markus be pedestrian and have the others show up in a loss than vice versa.

I know he wasn’t pedestrian, he was brutal. However, this reminds me of the game sacar played the point at Gtown and MU won last yr and everyone got so happy- I get it, but don’t fool yourselves with the big picture.

My wife who loves MARQUETTE basketball but isn’t nuanced in the sport falls for this- brendan and sacar and Jayce were huge today- we need that confidence. However, it’s an outlier.

This team needs Markus plus kobe plus sacar to score 50 a night to do damage. Double digits from brendan or a combo of others would be great but don’t fall into that everyone else carries the team trap pls

Porky couldn't agree more.  Is it too much to ask to for 4/5 starters to avg double digits?  Maybe it is not sure.  Is that common?  Everyone always says we need someone else to step up when Markus is off.  Well today, 3 players did and it still wasn't enough.  Seems to Porky we need a big that can score consistently more than anything else.   Without a Davante Gardner type, we're not going very far.  Great as it was to see Brendan break out of his shell today, Porky still favors Greg starting over Brendan.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
Greg over Brendan = 4 guards = disaster.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 01, 2019, 05:59:54 PM
Obviously, I would have preferred 12-0, but I went into non-con thinking 10-2 would be excellent and 9-3 would be OK (as long as the losses were "good" losses). We are very likely to do the latter, and I like our chances to be 10-2 heading into BEast play.

Big picture, beating Davidson was so, so huge, because it gave us a chance to get two wins that likely will be considered "good" a few months from now and a loss that won't hurt us much if at all.

Beat K-State on Sat - won't be easy to win on road, but this doesn't look like one of the great K-State teams - and don't stub the toe against N Dakota St (which lost by 13 at K-State), and it will have been an outstanding NC season.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: AirPunch on December 01, 2019, 06:12:25 PM
Obviously, I would have preferred 12-0, but I went into non-con thinking 10-2 would be excellent and 9-3 would be OK (as long as the losses were "good" losses). We are very likely to do the latter, and I like our chances to be 10-2 heading into BEast play.

Big picture, beating Davidson was so, so huge, because it gave us a chance to get two wins that likely will be considered "good" a few months from now and a loss that won't hurt us much if at all.

Beat K-State on Sat - won't be easy to win on road, but this doesn't look like one of the great K-State teams - and don't stub the toe against N Dakota St (which lost by 13 at K-State), and it will have been an outstanding NC season.

Agree completely. Getting 2 wins this week was huge. Hopefully at least one of them turns out to be "quality" on Selection Sunday.

K-State is a key game. It's winnable for sure as just last week I saw Brian Wardle's Bradley team manhandle them. Although, it's a true road game so it won't be easy. Markus went off on them last year, so it'll be interesting if Weber is able to make any adjustments.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 06:15:27 PM
Fixed the end there for you Guru because it is your opinion.  If winning or losing was all that mattered, 250 programs would cease to exist because most of them can’t win.

Learning how to compete, learning how to get better, learning how to be a good teammate, those are all things that we learn in sports that help us professionally and personally in life. 

Go ahead, you have every right to lose your mind when we lose the the 5th ranked team in the country and call out players and coaches that are busting their ass, but I will chose to see that some guys are in fact learning how to compete at this level, getting better and being a good teammate.

I hope your bleeding ulcer doesn’t keep you up at night.

Do I sound to you like I'm overly upset?? I don't like that they lost, but I'm far more upset they lost to UW than I am Maryland.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TAMU Garcia on December 01, 2019, 06:27:41 PM
Everyone knows ners and TAMU are the same people....good call.

This made me chuckle
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
End of the day, our team is a bubble team at best if Markus isn't in God mode.  IF* Markus plays in God mode, AND we see contributions similar to what we saw from Sacar, Brendan and Jayce today - we could be a Sweet 16 team.

Feeling better about things after a beat down ultimately speaks to the relatively low expectations most in our fanbase have for this team.

Maryland vaulted from 17 to 9 in Pomeroy rankings after today's win, and MU fell from 23 to 31.

You are on quite a roll under your new name
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 06:33:58 PM
I mean, I will get criticized for this, but this is truly baffling to me. Are all fan bases like this?? It seems like the MU fan base always seem to try to "minimize" losses by pointing out some positives. I really don't understand that. maybe they are the type of person that tries to find positives in everything...maybe they are the one's that say "it's just basketball, it's not life" and don't want to be down about MU losing a game. Or maybe that's just their internet persona. Who knows. Everyone's different, I understand that. And as much as you can say "Bailey looked good, Sacar looked good etc, sure, those things are true, but at the end of the day...it was still a loss, no matter how you slice it. Nothing good ever comes from a loss. As much as Coaches and players might say "we have things we can correct etc" after a loss, which is all true, they still lost the game. Maybe corrections help you going forward to some extent, but that does nothing to help with previous losses you had. Point being, if you didn't do the things you did that made you lose those previous games at that time, you probably wouldn't have lost them. Winning is better than losing...always.

It's sports(and yes, it's not as important as life), and the only thing that matters in sports is winning or losing. Some may not like that or feel that way, but it really is true.

Uhm, no.  One of the things Kevin O'Neill and other coaches have told me over the years and I agree with them....you learn a lot more from losing than winning.  When you win, you get fat and happy, you think you are invincible, especially at this age of these guys.  When you lose, you get humble and you start to listen again...you become teachable.

If a loss means several guys gain confidence and helps them....then yes, it CAN be a good thing.   Go back and read up on UNLV destroying Duke in the NCAA tournament by 30+...the next year Duke knocked them out.  Read what K and others said about what they learned from the first game.

So it isn't a matter of other fan bases, it's a matter of common sense. I don't care if it is sports, business, etc.  Mistakes and poor performances can happen, do you learn from them and adjust or do you keep on losing and making the same mistakes? THAT is the question.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 06:36:25 PM
This is good but this is an MU fan pet peeve of mines. Many would rather have Markus be pedestrian and have the others show up in a loss than vice versa.

I know he wasn’t pedestrian, he was brutal. However, this reminds me of the game sacar played the point at Gtown and MU won last yr and everyone got so happy- I get it, but don’t fool yourselves with the big picture.

My wife who loves MARQUETTE basketball but isn’t nuanced in the sport falls for this- brendan and sacar and Jayce were huge today- we need that confidence. However, it’s an outlier.

This team needs Markus plus kobe plus sacar to score 50 a night to do damage. Double digits from brendan or a combo of others would be great but don’t fall into that everyone else carries the team trap pls

I don't particularly care who the others are that step up, but I find the more guys that have the confidence to be those individuals is a good thing.  I'm also looking at it for the future as I believe Bailey will be a big reason for our success in his junior and senior seasons.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 06:36:48 PM


I know he wasn’t pedestrian, he was brutal. However, this reminds me of the game sacar played the point at Gtown and MU won last yr and everyone got so happy- I get it, but don’t fool yourselves with the big picture.



Sam Hauser played the point vs. Georgetown last year.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 06:39:08 PM
Sam Hauser played the point vs. Georgetown last year.

Despite being pressed the whole game.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: BM1090 on December 01, 2019, 06:39:23 PM
Sam Hauser played the point vs. Georgetown last year.

Sam played a lot of PG that game but Sacar did as well. Sacar initiated the offense in the halfcourt a lot.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TAMU Garcia on December 01, 2019, 06:42:28 PM
Was on a plane and watched a recording of this one late.

For the first 8 minutes of the game, I really liked what I saw. I remember thinking that this looks like two high level teams going back and forth trading blows. Really enjoyable start to the game.

Then came the last 12 minutes of that half. Woof. I'll be honest, I thought this section was more Maryland playing well than us playing poorly (not that we played well). During this stretch, Maryland was a top 5 team playing near their ceiling. Even if Howard is going off, we don't have the talent to keep up with that. Those two deep Cowan threes. are you kidding me? There's no good defense for those. Thought that this is what it feels like when Markus hits those shots on our opponents.

I appreciated the fight in the second half. It would have been really easy to fold and get blown out by 30+. Cut the lead all the way to 12. Koby or Markus make a few of their shots and all of the sudden we would have had a ballgame. Liked the use of zone here, really slowed them down. But Turgeon adjusted and started parking a wing in that short corner and it led to bucket after bucket. Wojo failed to adjust to the adjustment and the game got put away.

Awesome night for Bailey. Hope it is a harbinger of things to come. Great physicality by Jayce. Markus will be fine, need Koby to find his shot again. Have been disappointed by Theo lately. Think the quick fouls are messing with his approach. Need him to be a lot more confident on those offensive moves.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 06:48:48 PM
So because we lost today you don't think Bailey's performance mattered if it helps him gain confidence and turn the corner going forward?

Okay sure, but ONLY if it contributes to wins down the road...what good would it do for him to score like this in losses the rest of the way. If he can find some consistency, that would help immensely.

My whole point was, sure for a team/coaches/players losses can help you learn from your mistakes(but you'd still rather win, and learn from your mistakes, right)?? But as a fan...?? How does a loss help in any way??

Just keep in mind, every time they lose, the more losses they accumulate the more difficult it becomes to make the tournament or get a good seed. EVERY loss matters. So in that context there is no such thing as a "good" loss. I'd rather have an ugly win, then a "pretty" loss(by some people's definition this is a thing, I disagree) any time.

Every time you lose a game, it takes away a chance for a win and a good win at that, right?? So are you disagreeing that it would have been better for MU to win today, then it was to lose?? You can't possibly be saying that, right??

Were they going to go undefeated?? Of course not, no one is/will. But...I would bet you a MASSIVE amount of money if you have a team that goes say 28-2(and let's say both of those losses were to terrible teams, let's just say Evansville and Stephen F Austin) and you have another team that is 24-6 but all 6 losses were to teams in the top 10 by all metrics, who is getting the higher seed?? The one with the "better" losses" or the one with fewer losses?? This should be an easy one.

Winning is always better than losing. Anyone that thinks or says differently really shouldn't play or follow sports to be honest.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: DoctorV on December 01, 2019, 06:54:50 PM
I don't particularly care who the others are that step up, but I find the more guys that have the confidence to be those individuals is a good thing.  I'm also looking at it for the future as I believe Bailey will be a big reason for our success in his junior and senior seasons.

Point taken cheeks, but if you always look to the future you lose track of the present. It’s nice to see sacar and bailey performing but you know what? One will be gone next year because he’s a fifth year senior and the other is 21/22 because of a mission. It’s always nice to have the others step up, but don’t lose track of the obvious.

This team needs Markus, and as an aside Kobe and sacar to make a mark. When Markus leaves, no matter who steps up, this team will be worse.

Will Karim, plus Dawson, plus Oso, plus the Baltimore kid, plus Kobe with Greg and the others be nice? Oh yea very nice. Will they be as good as MARKUS and whatever; Nah they won’t the year after sure, but don’t look into next year when you’ve got one of the best in the game with you this year
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
Uhm, no.  One of the things Kevin O'Neill and other coaches have told me over the years and I agree with them....you learn a lot more from losing than winning.  When you win, you get fat and happy, you think you are invincible, especially at this age of these guys.  When you lose, you get humble and you start to listen again...you become teachable.

If a loss means several guys gain confidence and helps them....then yes, it CAN be a good thing. Go back and read up on UNLV destroying Duke in the NCAA tournament by 30+...the next year Duke knocked them out.  Read what K and others said about what they learned from the first game.

Okay and what if they learns things, but it still doesn't translate to winning games. Then what does losing do?? Any athlete or player every where would say they would rather win then lose, even if they could learn more from losing. If you win a lot, what do you really need to learn from your losses?? You have a couple each year...that happens regardless.

Ask Brendan Bailey if he would rather have scored 27 today(like he did) in a losing effort, or if he'd have rather scored 5 and they won?? You gain more confidence from winning then any individual achievement you may have a long the way.

So it isn't a matter of other fan bases, it's a matter of common sense. I don't care if it is sports, business, etc.  Mistakes and poor performances can happen, do you learn from them and adjust or do you keep on losing and making the same mistakes? THAT is the question.

And how much do you want to bet, Coack K to this day would still say all things being equal, he'd have rather won that game vs UNLV both years, rather than losing the first time and winning the next. He'd have rather had 2 wins as opposed to one win and one loss.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: IrwinFletcher on December 01, 2019, 06:57:45 PM

Winning is always better than losing. Anyone that thinks or says differently really shouldn't play or follow sports to be honest.

Thank you so much for clearing this up for all of us.  Had I known this years ago, my life would have turned out differently.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 07:01:44 PM
Despite being pressed the whole game.

Pressured (as any point guard vs a man to man is) not pressed. Never said pressed. Keep telling the lie, though. It looks good on you.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 07:02:39 PM
Point taken cheeks, but if you always look to the future you lose track of the present. It’s nice to see sacar and bailey performing but you know what? One will be gone next year because he’s a fifth year senior and the other is 21/22 because of a mission. It’s always nice to have the others step up, but don’t lose track of the obvious.

This team needs Markus, and as an aside Kobe and sacar to make a mark. When Markus leaves, no matter who steps up, this team will be worse.

Will Karim, plus Dawson, plus Oso, plus the Baltimore kid, plus Kobe with Greg and the others be nice? Oh yea very nice. Will they be as good as MARKUS and whatever; Nah they won’t the year after sure, but don’t look into next year when you’ve got one of the best in the game with you this year

This exactly Doc...this is spot on. next year is next year, 6 games from now is 6 games from now. All that should matter to anyone right now is the present..how do they do THIS year. How do they do next game, or two games from now. If Markus looks back on his career 2 years from now as the all time leading scorer but never wins a tournament game or only wins one, I can promise you as nice as it might be for him to accomplish what he did individually, he would look at it like "okay but I never won a tournament game while i was there, and that bothers me more than any pride I might have over an individual accomplishment".
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 01, 2019, 07:04:46 PM
Was on a plane and watched a recording of this one late.

For the first 8 minutes of the game, I really liked what I saw. I remember thinking that this looks like two high level teams going back and forth trading blows. Really enjoyable start to the game.

Then came the last 12 minutes of that half. Woof. I'll be honest, I thought this section was more Maryland playing well than us playing poorly (not that we played well). During this stretch, Maryland was a top 5 team playing near their ceiling. Even if Howard is going off, we don't have the talent to keep up with that. Those two deep Cowan threes. are you kidding me? There's no good defense for those. Thought that this is what it feels like when Markus hits those shots on our opponents.

I appreciated the fight in the second half. It would have been really easy to fold and get blown out by 30+. Cut the lead all the way to 12. Koby or Markus make a few of their shots and all of the sudden we would have had a ballgame. Liked the use of zone here, really slowed them down. But Turgeon adjusted and started parking a wing in that short corner and it led to bucket after bucket. Wojo failed to adjust to the adjustment and the game got put away.

Awesome night for Bailey. Hope it is a harbinger of things to come. Great physicality by Jayce. Markus will be fine, need Koby to find his shot again. Have been disappointed by Theo lately. Think the quick fouls are messing with his approach. Need him to be a lot more confident on those offensive moves.

Outstanding recap, TAMU ... even if, apparently, you are only supposed to harp on the bad things and not even acknowledge any encouraging signs.

One thing that stood out to me was how differently Maryland defended Markus compared to how USC did.

I'm sure some of it (much of it?) was due to personnel -- i.e., the defensive ability, length, quickness of the defenders and the depth of each team. But could it mostly have been as simple as Mark Turgeon > Andy Enfield? (Davidson, another well-coached team, seemed to try to do many of the same things Maryland did, but Davidson isn't as deep and athletic, and they couldn't sustain it all game.)

Once upon a time, Enfield was the flavor of the month -- the next great young coach, the kind of up-and-comer many Scoopers seem to want MU to pursue if Wojo becomes our ex-coach. And I don't blame them; it's likely either that or another high-major assistant. I just hope when the time comes that we get somebody more proven -- and better -- than Enfield.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 07:07:32 PM
And how much do you want to bet, Coack K to this day would still say all things being equal, he'd have rather won that game vs UNLV both years, rather than losing the first time and winning the next. He'd have rather had 2 wins as opposed to one win and one loss.

Sure, but if they hadn't learned from the loss, they very well could have lost both....that's the difference.  They took a loss and learned from it.  For all we know, they beat UNLV the first time and UNLV is the learner and beats Duke the second time...we don't know, will never know.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 07:08:47 PM
Point taken cheeks, but if you always look to the future you lose track of the present. It’s nice to see sacar and bailey performing but you know what? One will be gone next year because he’s a fifth year senior and the other is 21/22 because of a mission. It’s always nice to have the others step up, but don’t lose track of the obvious.

This team needs Markus, and as an aside Kobe and sacar to make a mark. When Markus leaves, no matter who steps up, this team will be worse.

Will Karim, plus Dawson, plus Oso, plus the Baltimore kid, plus Kobe with Greg and the others be nice? Oh yea very nice. Will they be as good as MARKUS and whatever; Nah they won’t the year after sure, but don’t look into next year when you’ve got one of the best in the game with you this year

I think our team, staff, people here are capable of both....the present and the future.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 07:14:06 PM
Thank you so much for clearing this up for all of us.  Had I known this years ago, my life would have turned out differently.

Not a problem! I mean, would we all rather lose money in our 401K's because "well at least some good came from it, I will learn from that mistake", or would we rather not lose that money to begin with?? I don't know about you, but even if my portfolio rebounds and I go on a long run of not "losing" money, I will like that, but I will still be upset mad that I lost some to begin with. Sure the amount of money I have now is great, but think about how much more I would have had I not lost that a month or two ago.

I mean, you say that sarcastically in a mocking way. But look at a lot of the posts after every loss here..It's a lot of "well they did this or that better etc". Then the ones that post about how it was bad, this was bad, that was bad etc, they get blasted because "well at least this was good". A loss is a loss is a loss is a loss.

No way if I'm any of the players or the Coaching staff am I getting on that plane "feeling good" that we just lost by 21 in a Championship because well, "good, now the players will start to listen more etc" or, "well hey, yeah we lost but Brandan looked good, maybe this will help him going forward". I promise you they didn't think those things.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 07:14:30 PM
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401187013

Check out Theo and Ed's combined stats.
Check out Markus and Koby's combined shooting.

The answers aren't always in the statistics, but sometimes they are.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 01, 2019, 07:18:46 PM
The players and coaches are not happy.   But they are looking for lessons from the loss to learn and build on.    If they aren't they aren't very good players or coaches. 

I love MU basketball.   Have for 35 years.   But I gave up losing my crap when my team loses about the time I got facial hair and my voice changed.    Sports are entertainment.    Life and death is life and death.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 07:20:22 PM
Not a problem! I mean, would we all rather lose money in our 401K's because "well at least some good came from it, I will learn from that mistake", or would we rather not lose that money to begin with?? I don't know about you, but even if my portfolio rebounds and I go on a long run of not "losing" money, I will like that, but I will still be upset mad that I lost some to begin with. Sure the amount of money I have now is great, but think about how much more I would have had I not lost that a month or two ago.

I mean, you say that sarcastically in a mocking way. But look at a lot of the posts after every loss here..It's a lot of "well they did this or that better etc". Then the ones that post about how it was bad, this was bad, that was bad etc, they get blasted because "well at least this was good". A loss is a loss is a loss is a loss.

No way if I'm any of the players or the Coaching staff am I getting on that plane "feeling good" that we just lost by 21 in a Championship because well, "good, now the players will start to listen more etc" or, "well hey, yeah we lost but Brandan looked good, maybe this will help him going forward". I promise you they didn't think those things.

Are you comparing investments to basketball wins / losses?  Why would such a comparison hold water at all?

I'm sure they are not "feeling good" about losing, but I'll bet they feel good about the effort and how some guys stepped up....because that one step back can mean several steps forward for the season. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: GoldenZebra on December 01, 2019, 07:21:28 PM
This was a game that could have been won but at the end of the day its not a big deal. I wonder what separates teams like Michigan from Marquette. both unranked but still return a good amount of players and Michigan starts with a brand new head coach, yet they are out there knocking off top 10 teams.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: 79Warrior on December 01, 2019, 07:25:19 PM
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401187013

Check out Theo and Ed's combined stats.
Check out Markus and Koby's combined shooting.

The answers aren't always in the statistics, but sometimes they are.

4 points from the bench.
0 for Theo. 0 for Ed. That has to get better.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 01, 2019, 07:30:16 PM
I mean, would we all rather lose money in our 401K's because "well at least some good came from it, I will learn from that mistake", or would we rather not lose that money to begin with?? I don't know about you, but even if my portfolio rebounds and I go on a long run of not "losing" money, I will like that, but I will still be upset mad that I lost some to begin with. Sure the amount of money I have now is great, but think about how much more I would have had I not lost that a month or two ago.

I mean, you say that sarcastically in a mocking way. But look at a lot of the posts after every loss here..It's a lot of "well they did this or that better etc". Then the ones that post about how it was bad, this was bad, that was bad etc, they get blasted because "well at least this was good". A loss is a loss is a loss is a loss.

No way if I'm any of the players or the Coaching staff am I getting on that plane "feeling good" that we just lost by 21 in a Championship because well, "good, now the players will start to listen more etc" or, "well hey, yeah we lost but Brandan looked good, maybe this will help him going forward". I promise you they didn't think those things.

A couple things here, guru ...

I don't like losing money, but I will say that I have learned a ton from my investing mistakes. Long-term, they made me a better investor. The smart person learns something from everything that happens to him or her, whether good or bad.

Of course I'd rather win every game than lose any. I remember my third year as a middle-school coach -- we had a really, really good team, started 11-0. Then we lost a close game. The next day, our AD comes up to me and says, "Maybe it's a good thing you lost. It will take some pressure off of the team and you can use it as a teaching moment." And I just said, "Yeah, maybe." But I didn't believe it. I felt that we could have learned plenty if we had won, too. I wanted to go undefeated. But we DID learn from it because that's what intelligent, determined, competitive people do ... and we went on to win the first championship in school history.

I really don't think anybody here is saying, "Yay, we lost to Maryland." Or even, "It's OK that we lost." But many of us are saying that it's not the end of the world that we lost and that, despite the loss, there were some encouraging signs as we go forward, things that might help us be a better team down the road. If you watched that game and didn't come out encouraged about Bailey and Johnson, I don't know what to say.

You don't like it when others tell you how you should act or how you should feel; you have voiced that strongly many times. But it's OK for you to tell others how they should act and feel?

I'd have rather beaten Maryland.  I definitely would have rather beaten Wisconsin. I'd rather go into the national title game undefeated, because there's pressure either way. But when my alma mater's basketball team loses, I do try to look objectively at what happened, and yes I usually am able to find some encouraging signs. If you think that somehow makes me a "lesser" fan than you, I can live with that.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 07:38:34 PM
Agree completely. Getting 2 wins this week was huge. Hopefully at least one of them turns out to be "quality" on Selection Sunday.

K-State is a key game. It's winnable for sure as just last week I saw Brian Wardle's Bradley team manhandle them. Although, it's a true road game so it won't be easy. Markus went off on them last year, so it'll be interesting if Weber is able to make any adjustments.

Is Air Punch an ode to Wojo's frustrated sideline antic?  If so, well done.

Afraid wins against K-State, Davidson, and USC, will sound better in name, than in actual reality.  None of these teams appear to be Top 50 caliber at this stage.  Davidson took it on the chin to losing to #65 Temple by 13 today.  K-State getting clipped by 13 by #131 Bradley on neutral floor?  Not good.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: connie on December 01, 2019, 07:41:41 PM
This was a game that could have been won but at the end of the day its not a big deal. I wonder what separates teams like Michigan from Marquette. both unranked but still return a good amount of players and Michigan starts with a brand new head coach, yet they are out there knocking off top 10 teams.
I am guessing the difference is coaching and talent.  But we learned something, so we have that going for us.  ;)
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 07:46:13 PM

So it isn't a matter of other fan bases, it's a matter of common sense. I don't care if it is sports, business, etc.  Mistakes and poor performances can happen, do you learn from them and adjust or do you keep on losing and making the same mistakes? THAT is the question.

Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 07:47:32 PM
A couple things here, guru ...

I don't like losing money, but I will say that I have learned a ton from my investing mistakes. Long-term, they made me a better investor. The smart person learns something from everything that happens to him or her, whether good or bad.

Of course I'd rather win every game than lose any. I remember my third year as a middle-school coach -- we had a really, really good team, started 11-0. Then we lost a close game. The next day, our AD comes up to me and says, "Maybe it's a good thing you lost. It will take some pressure off of the team and you can use it as a teaching moment." And I just said, "Yeah, maybe." But I didn't believe it. I felt that we could have learned plenty if we had won, too. I wanted to go undefeated. But we DID learn from it because that's what intelligent, determined, competitive people do ... and we went on to win the first championship in school history.

I really don't think anybody here is saying, "Yay, we lost to Maryland." Or even, "It's OK that we lost." But many of us are saying that it's not the end of the world that we lost and that, despite the loss, there were some encouraging signs as we go forward, things that might help us be a better team down the road. If you watched that game and didn't come out encouraged about Bailey and Johnson, I don't know what to say.

You don't like it when others tell you how you should act or how you should feel; you have voiced that strongly many times. But it's OK for you to tell others how they should act and feel?

I'd have rather beaten Maryland.  I definitely would have rather beaten Wisconsin. I'd rather go into the national title game undefeated, because there's pressure either way. But when my alma mater's basketball team loses, I do try to look objectively at what happened, and yes I usually am able to find some encouraging signs. If you think that somehow makes me a "lesser" fan than you, I can live with that.

It has nothing to do with who's being a better fan etc. I never said that. Sure there were encouraging signs IF(and that's the qualifier) it actually helps them later on(and it's meaningful). But there's no guarantee's it will. Maybe they will just keep losing games regardless. We all hope not, but we can't dismiss that possibility either. So in that regard, I'd rather win as much as I possibly can then try to be positive from a loss in HOPES that it will pay dividends down the road. Because, what if it doesn't?? Then what was learned from that loss or this loss or any other?? I'm 100% with you if it was some "magic pill" and guaranteed things would be better after a loss, but none of us know that for sure.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Jables1604 on December 01, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.

Is John Dawson on the roster? NOPE

There’s your answer “Elon.”
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 07:54:17 PM
Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.

You know I was just thinking about this today. I do find it puzling/troubling how bad they have been against Big ten teams under Wojo.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Eldon on December 01, 2019, 08:03:33 PM
Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.

Excuse?

Please.  Take off your Buzz goggles, bro.  Not only did Buzz mail it in his final year at MU, he set the program back years, if not decades. 

Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible that the program can recover from Buzz's empty cupboard damage.  I mean, Lovell is trying, e.g., tearing down McCormick, building a new Rec Center, etc., but only time will tell.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 08:06:25 PM
2.5 point underdog, down 28 early in the 2nd half, game over - but several positives? Most of which occurred after the game was decided and Maryland had sort of lost interest? If Koby can be who Koby was vs Purdue, if Bailey and Anim can be who they were today and if Markus can be who he was vs USC we'll win the National Championship going away - even with little or no help from the 5. But there's so much volatility...this team has me puzzled.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:08:35 PM
You know I was just thinking about this today. I do find it puzling/troubling how bad they have been against Big ten teams under Wojo.
Its ok though because I am sure the team learned something after each loss.

My question for the holier than thou crowd is at what point is losing not acceptable. Is 5 years going on 6 of mediocrity ok because the team is learning along the way?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: IrwinFletcher on December 01, 2019, 08:13:08 PM
.

No way if I'm any of the players or the Coaching staff am I getting on that plane "feeling good" that we just lost by 21 in a Championship because well, "good, now the players will start to listen more etc" or, "well hey, yeah we lost but Brandan looked good, maybe this will help him going forward". I promise you they didn't think those things.

So if you were coaching, you would have these guys run until the soles of their feet bleed all while screaming at them because they didn’t win 3 games?

Or would you highlight the things that they did well individually and collectively and help them improve on that all the while pointing out flaws in their game to help them improve for the next game?

I honestly look forward to your answer as I believe you believe in the former.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 08:19:23 PM
Excuse?

Please.  Take off your Buzz goggles, bro.  Not only did Buzz mail it in his final year at MU, he set the program back years, if not decades. 

Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible that the program can recover from Buzz's empty cupboard damage.  I mean, Lovell is trying, e.g., tearing down McCormick, building a new Rec Center, etc., but only time will tell.

Well done!
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:20:43 PM
Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.

LOL. Before today, you were mildly pleasant with your new name and account....mildly...still waiting to unleash your same crap you always do. 

Tell me, how did Duke lost this week AT HOME with 8 guys on the team that are 5 star recruits?  How did Kentucky lose?  Same old same old from you...never gets old.  I'm guessing Maryland has a great shot to win the Big Ten this year. 

We'll see how they do against Michigan State and others, but Maryland is a very talented team. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:21:04 PM
So if you were coaching, you would have these guys run until the soles of their feet bleed all while screaming at them because they didn’t win 3 games?

Or would you highlight the things that they did well individually and collectively and help them improve on that all the while pointing out flaws in their game to help them improve for the next game?

I honestly look forward to your answer as I believe you believe in the former.
of course, thats what a coach should do,  but none of us are the coach that I know of.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:23:13 PM
Its ok though because I am sure the team learned something after each loss.

My question for the holier than thou crowd is at what point is losing not acceptable. Is 5 years going on 6 of mediocrity ok because the team is learning along the way?

Please end your donations and stop buying tickets...that will show them who is boss.  My question to the crowd that thinks Al is still alive and it is 1977....do you still drive a Pinto?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:25:50 PM
LOL. Before today, you were mildly pleasant with your new name and account....mildly...still waiting to unleash your same crap you always do. 

Tell me, how did Duke lost this week AT HOME with 8 guys on the team that are 5 star recruits?  How did Kentucky lose?  Same old same old from you...never gets old.  I'm guessing Maryland has a great shot to win the Big Ten this year. 

We'll see how they do against Michigan State and others, but Maryland is a very talented team.
What are Duke's and Kentucky's record and tournament sucess the last 5 years vs MU thats the question not one random game. Of course teams lose games over the course of a year. Silly arguement by you. Again.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: WarriorFan on December 01, 2019, 08:27:16 PM
Markus - He's never going to average 40... but he's also never going to average 6.  If he scores 20, MU still loses.  It is possible to take him out of the game.  It was done last year, and it's been done twice already this year.  It takes a combination of size, strategy, and compliant refereeing, but he can be "removed" from effectiveness.
Bailey - a taste of things to come I hope
Sacar - solid
Jayce - Deserves more minutes.  Was strong.  Played smart.  Smarter than the other two bigs by a mile. Even sets good screens without moving too soon.
Theo - cannot seem to get above the rim any more.  Plays terrible defense.  Always going for the block.
Ed - Should only play after everyone including the walk-ons has fouled out.  A complete waste of a scholarship.  Making freshman (high school freshman) mistakes.  He's always in the way of the drive/cutter on offense and on defense his man scored nearly every time he was in. 
Jamal - it's so easy for him to not contribute.  But he should.  Too quiet.
Greg - Needs more minutes.  Seems to have a lot of rust.
Koby - at least he hit that late 3... maybe that will get him off to a good start next game.  He needs to learn how to finish at this level of competition. 
Coaching - Not bad.  Markus, Sacar and Koby all had 15 foot pull-ups available. Only Sacar took them regularly and made them.  Koby took 2 as I remember but clanged them.  Markus could have taken them but decided to attack.  I thought a correction could have been made and he could have 10-12 easy points off of pull-ups rather than attacking 3 guys.  I think the scout was to defend hard inside, let them have the 3's and then suddenly Maryland started making 3's. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 08:27:21 PM
So if you were coaching, you would have these guys run until the soles of their feet bleed all while screaming at them because they didn’t win 3 games?

Or would you highlight the things that they did well individually and collectively and help them improve on that all the while pointing out flaws in their game to help them improve for the next game?

I honestly look forward to your answer as I believe you believe in the former.

I mean, if you want the honest truth, I will give it to you...and that would be that I would rather they not put me in a position as a Coach where I'm harping on the same things all the time. That's as honest as I can be. See, the thing is, I can still teach them things even when they win because we wouldn't have played the perfect game, so with that I can teach them things from wins as well. And to me, that's a far better scenario.

But if you want me to choose one of your two options, then yes, of course I would choose the second one. But again, as I mentioned in a previous post, the risk is after every loss, if you are constantly teaching them, HOPING for improvement the next game...well time eventually runs out, and eventually you might have too many losses for it to matter any more. They can improve, but it may not be enough. So all I'm saying is I would rather win as many as I possibly can before it gets to the point I have to worry about whether or not the improvements they may show will be enough to help us win enough games the rest of the way.

They are in no way shape or form in dangerous territory in regards to that yet, but every loss brings you a step closer to that, and I'd rather not even find out what might happen if they are teetering that line at season's end. The more they win now, as their Coach, the less I have to worry about things later. Make sense??
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:28:06 PM
Please end your donations and stop buying tickets...that will show them who is boss.  My question to the crowd that thinks Al is still alive and it is 1977....do you still drive a Pinto?
77 trans am. blue and gold.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 08:29:10 PM
Is John Dawson on the roster? NOPE

There’s your answer “Elon.”

NOPE.  The only constant on the roster is the head coach.  There's your answer "Jables."

That aside, I'm as encouraged as a fan could be after today's beat down.  Bailey had a major breakthrough.  Jayce and Sacar had their best games.  Defense largely looks pretty good.  Yet we most likely are a 7-10 seed at best in Year 6 of the regime, a regime still looking for its first NCAA tournament win.  At some point moral victories need to stop, and winning big time games needs to start.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:29:23 PM
What are Duke's and Kentucky's record and tournament sucess the last 5 years vs MU thats the question not one random game. Of course teams lose games over the course of a year. Silly arguement by you. Again.

So let me get this straight, a team with nothing but 5* players, Hall of Fame coaches can lose on their home court to mid majors, but MU losing to the 5th ranked team in the country on a neutral court is mediocre and just another example of mediocrity.

Silly argument by you.  AGAIN.

You know what would be a great idea.  Lose the best MU recruiting class in years....throw it away....get a new coach who simply will not stand for such mediocrity...MU can go to the corner coaching store and pick one up tomorrow who is sure to stay at MU for decades to deliver us the just deserts we all deserve.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 01, 2019, 08:30:42 PM
I mean, if you want the honest truth, I will give it to you...and that would be that I would rather they not put me in a position as a Coach where I'm harping on the same things all the time. That's as honest as I can be. See, the thing is, I can still teach them things even when they win because we wouldn't have played the perfect game, so with that I can teach them things from wins as well. And to me, that's a far better scenario.

But if you want me to choose one of your two options, then yes, of course I would choose the second one. But again, as I mentioned in a previous post, the risk is after every loss, if you are constantly teaching them, HOPING for improvement the next game...well time eventually runs out, and eventually you might have too many losses for it to matter any more. They can improve, but it may not be enough. So all I'm saying is I would rather win as many as I possibly can before it gets to the point I have to worry about whether or not the improvements they may show will be enough to help us win enough games the rest of the way.

They are in no way shape or form in dangerous territory in regards to that yet, but every loss brings you a step closer to that, and I'd rather not even find out what might happen if they are teetering that line at season's end. The more they win now, as their Coach, the less I have to worry about things later. Make sense??
Uh, well.....?  Enjoy the games, Iceman/guru.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: #UnleashHoward40shots on December 01, 2019, 08:32:12 PM
The scariest thing about this tournament is teams have 2 different patterns to shut down Howard.

USC used a very high zone to deny Howard and was fairly effective.

Maryland had a defender faceguard Markus 30 feet from the hoop.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:33:47 PM
Excuse?

Please.  Take off your Buzz goggles, bro.  Not only did Buzz mail it in his final year at MU, he set the program back years, if not decades. 

Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible that the program can recover from Buzz's empty cupboard damage.  I mean, Lovell is trying, e.g., tearing down McCormick, building a new Rec Center, etc., but only time will tell.

I was really surprised that Buzz and his coaching acumen and wizardry couldn't pull off one win in this tournament.  Figured they would get Fairfield, but alas it is early.  Maybe they are tanking for a better draft pick.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:35:23 PM
So let me get this straight, a team with nothing but 5* players, Hall of Fame coaches can lose on their home court to mid majors, but MU losing to the 5th ranked team in the country on a neutral court is mediocre and just another example of mediocrity.

Silly argument by you.  AGAIN.

You know what would be a great idea.  Lose the best MU recruiting class in years....throw it away....get a new coach who simply will not stand for such mediocrity...MU can go to the corner coaching store and pick one up tomorrow who is sure to stay at MU for decades to deliver us the just deserts we all deserve.
The point is dont cherry pick one game. Look at the big picture. Especially you, Mr. 5 years to Judge.

I never once advocated replacing Woj,  but nice try. Look at things objectively instead of always sticking your head up Wojo's ars.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:36:53 PM
The scariest thing about this tournament is teams have 2 different patterns to shut down Howard.

USC used a very high zone to deny Howard and was fairly effective.

Maryland had a defender faceguard Markus 30 feet from the hoop.
wait, 50 points was fairly effective?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on December 01, 2019, 08:37:04 PM
The scariest thing about this tournament is teams have 2 different patterns to shut down Howard.

USC used a very high zone to deny Howard and was fairly effective.

Maryland had a defender faceguard Markus 30 feet from the hoop.

The same USC that Howard put up 51 in 32 minutes against?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: manesworld on December 01, 2019, 08:37:22 PM
The scariest thing about this tournament is teams have 2 different patterns to shut down Howard.

USC used a very high zone to deny Howard and was fairly effective.

Maryland had a defender faceguard Markus 30 feet from the hoop.

Fairly effective? I think Markus scores 51(!) points. That’s...not very effective.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:38:23 PM
NOPE.  The only constant on the roster is the head coach.  There's your answer "Jables."

That aside, I'm as encouraged as a fan could be after today's beat down.  Bailey had a major breakthrough.  Jayce and Sacar had their best games.  Defense largely looks pretty good.  Yet we most likely are a 7-10 seed at best in Year 6 of the regime, a regime still looking for its first NCAA tournament win.  At some point moral victories need to stop, and winning big time games needs to start.

Why in year 6 of Buzz under your other user names were you not hopping mad when we couldn't even get a 7-10 seed in the NIT, let alone the NCAA? 

And if winning those "big time" games that only you get to define doesn't start....what are YOU going to do about it?  Withhold the $100 annual donation?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:40:10 PM
The scariest thing about this tournament is teams have 2 different patterns to shut down Howard.

USC used a very high zone to deny Howard and was fairly effective.

Maryland had a defender faceguard Markus 30 feet from the hoop.

Wait, what?  Was the second sentence missing teal?  Have you written the $200 check yet?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:42:11 PM
The point is dont cherry pick one game. Look at the big picture. Especially you, Mr. 5 years to Judge.

I never once advocated replacing Woj,  but nice try. Look at things objectively instead of always sticking your head up Wojo's ars.

Yup, and he's met my criteria for 5 years.  Took over a team that couldn't even get a NIT bid, rebuilt...3 post season tournaments last 4 years.  Great recruiting class coming in next year.  Exactly.  Reading all this other drivel from people that have no idea what it would do to set the program back is amazing to me.  Wojo has a ways to go, no doubt...but stick to the plan.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 08:43:02 PM
Fairly effective? I think Markus scores 51(!) points. That’s...not very effective.

He bet me $200 a few days ago and said I know nothing about college basketball....like stealing candy from a baby. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 01, 2019, 08:45:14 PM
Yup, and he's met my criteria for 5 years.  Took over a team that couldn't even get a NIT bid, rebuilt...3 post season tournaments last 4 years.  Great recruiting class coming in next year.  Exactly.  Reading all this other drivel from people that have no idea what it would do to set the program back is amazing to me.  Wojo has a ways to go, no doubt...but stick to the plan.
you are amusing.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 08:48:14 PM
Why in year 6 of Buzz under your other user names were you not hopping mad when we couldn't even get a 7-10 seed in the NIT, let alone the NCAA? 

And if winning those "big time" games that only you get to define doesn't start....what are YOU going to do about it?  Withhold the $100 annual donation?

You seem to struggle to understand context, and seem to be quite unhinged. Have a nice evening, and I hope you come back tomorrow feeling more calm and rational.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: muguru on December 01, 2019, 08:48:23 PM
So let me get this straight, a team with nothing but 5* players, Hall of Fame coaches can lose on their home court to mid majors, but MU losing to the 5th ranked team in the country on a neutral court is mediocre and just another example of mediocrity.

Silly argument by you.  AGAIN.

You know what would be a great idea.  Lose the best MU recruiting class in years....throw it away....get a new coach who simply will not stand for such mediocrity...MU can go to the corner coaching store and pick one up tomorrow who is sure to stay at MU for decades to deliver us the just deserts we all deserve.

As one of the biggest Wojo non supporters in recent years, even I am so impressed by this recruiting class, he gets a little longer leash with me. How's that for positivity?? That being said, that will in no way, shape or form excuse a non tournament year this year.

With your Duke example Cheeks, let me ask you this...sure Duke can lose a game on their home court to SFA, because you know why?? They won't lose many more. They have a MUCH larger margin for error than does MU. And therein lies my biggest complaint...Going in to every single year almost without fail, and barring something completely disastrous, wouldn't you wager large sums of money that schools like UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, heck even Gonzaga, Villanova, etc are going to be a tournament team before the season starts almost every single year?? Once they get there, who knows what happens, but you KNOW they are going to get there before the ball is even rolled out to start the season. It hasn't been that way under Wojo, and that's at least the step I'd like to see the program get to, and it's disappointing it hasn't. I'd rather go into every year knowing they will be in the tourney and are essentially playing the season for seeding rather than wondering how big of an impact every loss will have on them.

And again, I am NOT saying he should be let go, but you continue this fallacy that they would automatically lose the recruiting class. That is not a given and has been proven recruiting classes have and will stay at a school when a new Coach comes in. Could they leave?? Sure absolutely they could, but to say it's an automatic is disingenuous. I think it would depend on who the coach was they brought in.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 01, 2019, 09:22:26 PM
It has nothing to do with who's being a better fan etc. I never said that. Sure there were encouraging signs IF(and that's the qualifier) it actually helps them later on(and it's meaningful). But there's no guarantee's it will. Maybe they will just keep losing games regardless. We all hope not, but we can't dismiss that possibility either. So in that regard, I'd rather win as much as I possibly can then try to be positive from a loss in HOPES that it will pay dividends down the road. Because, what if it doesn't?? Then what was learned from that loss or this loss or any other?? I'm 100% with you if it was some "magic pill" and guaranteed things would be better after a loss, but none of us know that for sure.

Sounds like you actually agree with me ... except you want some kind of "guarantee."

There are no guarantees in sports, and I'm a little surprised that you seem to think there are.

Have a nice night, guru.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Mutaman on December 01, 2019, 09:48:54 PM
He bet me $200 a few days ago and said I know nothing about college basketball....like stealing candy from a baby.

(https://www.broadstreetreview.com/images/uploads/posts/_framed/D1EddEaw-768-515.jpg)
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: mu.n8ball on December 01, 2019, 09:53:28 PM
At some point moral victories need to stop, and winning big time games needs to start.

You win some, you lose some. We've won big time games under Wojo as well, beating number 1 Villanova comes to mind.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: dgies9156 on December 01, 2019, 10:08:34 PM
Please end your donations and stop buying tickets...that will show them who is boss.  My question to the crowd that thinks Al is still alive and it is 1977....do you still drive a Pinto?

Al is alive only in our hearts and memories.

I wish it was 1977. I weighed a lot less and I had a lot, lot, lot more hair. But I had no investments and very little savings  ;D

I drive a BMW 5 series, thank you very much. The Pinto is but an explosive bad dream! :o
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: jesmu84 on December 01, 2019, 10:09:19 PM
Great question.  What say you after 5-years to judge, and now 6 consecutive years of absolute beat downs by Big 10 teams?

Does our coach have all of "his guys?"  Check
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse fully retired?  Check
An experienced and "old" roster?  Check
1st Team All American?  Check

So, it would seem in sports or business, the answer to your question would be:  Management isn't getting it done.

Off the top of my head in the last 2 years... Purdue and Wisconsin were wins.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: #UnleashHoward40shots on December 01, 2019, 10:13:03 PM
Everyone is unhinged. Howard only scored 11 on USC when they zoned. The rest of the game was man.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: PorkysButthole on December 01, 2019, 10:17:32 PM
Markus - He's never going to average 40... but he's also never going to average 6.  If he scores 20, MU still loses.  It is possible to take him out of the game.  It was done last year, and it's been done twice already this year.  It takes a combination of size, strategy, and compliant refereeing, but he can be "removed" from effectiveness.
Bailey - a taste of things to come I hope
Sacar - solid
Jayce - Deserves more minutes.  Was strong.  Played smart.  Smarter than the other two bigs by a mile. Even sets good screens without moving too soon.
Theo - cannot seem to get above the rim any more.  Plays terrible defense.  Always going for the block.
Ed - Should only play after everyone including the walk-ons has fouled out.  A complete waste of a scholarship.  Making freshman (high school freshman) mistakes.  He's always in the way of the drive/cutter on offense and on defense his man scored nearly every time he was in. 
Jamal - it's so easy for him to not contribute.  But he should.  Too quiet.
Greg - Needs more minutes.  Seems to have a lot of rust.
Koby - at least he hit that late 3... maybe that will get him off to a good start next game.  He needs to learn how to finish at this level of competition. 
Coaching - Not bad.  Markus, Sacar and Koby all had 15 foot pull-ups available. Only Sacar took them regularly and made them.  Koby took 2 as I remember but clanged them.  Markus could have taken them but decided to attack.  I thought a correction could have been made and he could have 10-12 easy points off of pull-ups rather than attacking 3 guys.  I think the scout was to defend hard inside, let them have the 3's and then suddenly Maryland started making 3's.

Porky concurs with everything except Ed.  When Ed is on he's solid , and has proven he can score when needed.  Yes he had a bad game today but this strikes Porky as unfair.  Now that we have Jayce, if his performance today is a harbinger of what's to come, Porky would start him over Theo, but Porky has also long thought Ed should start over Theo, since he's much more of a scoring option and today aside, still very good defensively.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: manesworld on December 01, 2019, 10:25:31 PM
Everyone is unhinged. Howard only scored 11 on USC when they zoned. The rest of the game was man.

So 11 points in...5 or so minutes? Again, not very effective defense.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 10:37:53 PM
(https://www.broadstreetreview.com/images/uploads/posts/_framed/D1EddEaw-768-515.jpg)

"Ahh, but the strawberries. that's where I had them...I proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt...and with geometric logic..."

Chico is indeed our own Captain Queeg. Perfect call.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:43:50 PM
Al is alive only in our hearts and memories.

I wish it was 1977. I weighed a lot less and I had a lot, lot, lot more hair. But I had no investments and very little savings  ;D

I drive a BMW 5 series, thank you very much. The Pinto is but an explosive bad dream! :o

I miss him as well, wonderful to work with.  Will never forget him until the day I die.  Definitely alive in memories.  Special guy, one in a million...which is the point...one in a million.

I prefer the 7 series myself, but the 5 is nice.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:48:02 PM
"Ahh, but the strawberries. that's where I had them...I proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt...and with geometric logic..."

Chico is indeed our own Captain Queeg. Perfect call.

You two are old...like dirt old.  LOL.

As for Mutaman, as I said long again...he’s a Badgers fan and you guys keep,falling for his crap.

https://247sports.com/college/wisconsin/Board/103797/Contents/Badgers-Football-Ohio-State-knocks-off-Wisconsin-27-21-in-the-Big-Ten-title-game-111558658/?page=40

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TAMU Garcia on December 01, 2019, 10:51:15 PM
The silly and false empty cupboard excuse

Still waiting for your answer.

Name a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 of its top 6 players in minutes played, lost it's coach, lost all but one member of its recruiting class, that made the NCAAs the following season. Bonus points if the 1 returner in the top 6 is the caliber of Derrick Wilson.

The ghost of Al McGuire with Jay Wright, Mark Few, and Coach K as assistants was not getting that team to the NCAAs. A great (or dirty) coach may have been able to get them back in year 2. I think two years of rebuild was reasonable given the starting point.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 11:06:17 PM
Still waiting for your answer.

graduated 6 of its top 7 players in minutes played

Actually he lost 4 of the 11 players who averaged more than 10 mpg to graduation - Gardner, Jamil, Jake Thomas and Otule. One quit over the summer (Mayo), three transferred (Taylor, Dawson and Burton). JJJ, Duane Wilson, Derrick, and Juan Anderson returned. Sandy Cohen and Luke Fischer were added.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 11:21:34 PM
Actually he lost 4 of the 11 players who averaged more than 10 mpg to graduation - Gardner, Jamil, Jake Thomas and Otule. One quit over the summer (Mayo), three transferred (Taylor, Dawson and Burton). JJJ, Duane Wilson, Derrick, and Juan Anderson returned. Sandy Cohen and Luke Fischer were added.

One quit over the Summer....lol....yeah...
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: BM1090 on December 01, 2019, 11:27:20 PM
USC looked great tonight. Smacked Harvard around. The talent is there, hopeful that will stay as a quality win.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 11:30:54 PM
USC looked great tonight. Smacked Harvard around. The talent is there, hopeful that will stay as a quality win.

They tend to do this quite a bit.  Could get a win over Arizona or another high end school, but will lose to a Washington State.  Agree, hope they can get some wins to help us.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TAMU Garcia on December 01, 2019, 11:47:36 PM
Actually he lost 4 of the 11 players who averaged more than 10 mpg to graduation - Gardner, Jamil, Jake Thomas and Otule. One quit over the summer (Mayo), three transferred (Taylor, Dawson and Burton). JJJ, Duane Wilson, Derrick, and Juan Anderson returned. Sandy Cohen and Luke Fischer were added.

Mea culpa. I was going off memory and added an extra player,  it was 5 of 6. And while Mayo didn't graduate,  Wojo couldn't have kept him if he wanted to. So I'll reask.

Name a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 of its top 6 players in minutes played, lost it's coach, lost all but one member of its recruiting class, that made the NCAAs the following season. Bonus points if the 1 returner in the top 6 is the caliber of Derrick Wilson.

I think you'll get the same answer.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 11:54:35 PM
Mea culpa. I was going off memory and added an extra player,  it was 5 of 6. And while Mayo didn't graduate,  Wojo couldn't have kept him if he wanted to. So I'll reask.

Name a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 of its top 6 players in minutes played, lost it's coach, lost all but one member of its recruiting class, that made the NCAAs the following season. Bonus points if the 1 returner in the top 6 is the caliber of Derrick Wilson.

I think you'll get the same answer.

You are missing one additional qualifier....and did so in a conference like the Big East which was ranked the #2 conference in the country in Wojo’s first year behind only the Big 12.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 02, 2019, 07:28:15 AM
You are on quite a roll under your new name

Irony abounds.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: brewcity77 on December 02, 2019, 08:12:54 AM
A few thoughts...

1) I love Markus, but man, those complete egg-layings are tough to watch.

2) Howard and McEwen remind me of Howard and Rowsey in 2017-18. Both can get hot, but it doesn't seem to happen at the same time.

3) How has Ed been here three years and the travel issue hasn't been fixed? Seriously, him dragging his pivot in the post is so predictable.

4) Wojo came in with a rep for developing bigs, but that's been a failing so far. From Fischer to Heldt to John to Morrow, I just haven't seen strides from those players.

5) Bailey and Anim were bright spots. If they can replicate that, even to a lesser level, when Howard and McEwen are average, we'll be a good team.

6) Anyone who has ever watched soccer knows that what Jalen Smith did to Jayce was intentional. No question.

7) The refs let them play today and that hurt us. Maryland didn't have to go into their bench and we didn't get as many chances at the line. As ugly as the reffing was Thursday and Friday, those games are better for the kind of team we have.

8) The first half, like the second against Wisconsin, was disastrous, but there were plenty of positives. Jayce looks like the best big. Sacar & Bailey. The team didn't give up and almost made a game of it.

9) When you are trying to dig out of a 20+ point hole, even mini-runs are soul-crushing. We would get it to 12 or 13, then Maryland would score, get a stop, and score again and suddenly a 5-0 run turned possible into insurmountable.

10) I hoped for 11-1 non-con, but 10-2 isn't terrible. Though anyone hoping to see us ranked will probably have to wait until January 6 at the earliest.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TSmith34 on December 02, 2019, 08:21:17 AM
LOL. Before today, you were mildly pleasant with your new name and account....mildly...still waiting to unleash your same crap you always do. 
The irony meter just broke
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 02, 2019, 08:28:44 AM
The lack of development offensively with the bigs is puzzling to me.  Ed is not what I expected him to be.  Theo after three years has ZERO touch around the basket.  And Jayce is a rebounding machine, but again has no touch.

Not that I expect us to be feeding the post offensively, but it would be nice to be a threat enough offensively to draw a double team.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: We R Final Four on December 02, 2019, 08:35:05 AM


6) Anyone who has ever watched soccer knows that what Jalen Smith did to Jayce was intentional. No question.

The Great Dan Dickitch said otherwise “so.......don’t @ me Marquette fan”
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 08:36:18 AM
A few thoughts...

1) I love Markus, but man, those complete egg-layings are tough to watch.

2) Howard and McEwen remind me of Howard and Rowsey in 2017-18. Both can get hot, but it doesn't seem to happen at the same time.

3) How has Ed been here three years and the travel issue hasn't been fixed? Seriously, him dragging his pivot in the post is so predictable.

4) Wojo came in with a rep for developing bigs, but that's been a failing so far. From Fischer to Heldt to John to Morrow, I just haven't seen strides from those players.

5) Bailey and Anim were bright spots. If they can replicate that, even to a lesser level, when Howard and McEwen are average, we'll be a good team.

6) Anyone who has ever watched soccer knows that what Jalen Smith did to Jayce was intentional. No question.

7) The refs let them play today and that hurt us. Maryland didn't have to go into their bench and we didn't get as many chances at the line. As ugly as the reffing was Thursday and Friday, those games are better for the kind of team we have.

8) The first half, like the second against Wisconsin, was disastrous, but there were plenty of positives. Jayce looks like the best big. Sacar & Bailey. The team didn't give up and almost made a game of it.

9) When you are trying to dig out of a 20+ point hole, even mini-runs are soul-crushing. We would get it to 12 or 13, then Maryland would score, get a stop, and score again and suddenly a 5-0 run turned possible into insurmountable.

10) I hoped for 11-1 non-con, but 10-2 isn't terrible. Though anyone hoping to see us ranked will probably have to wait until January 6 at the earliest.

Good stuff, brewski. A couple of thoughts on your thoughts ...

1. Markus has had 3 bad games, though the Robert Morris one seemed semi-intentional on Wojo's part. We were blown out in the other 2. Given that we have only played 7 games, that''s disturbing. We can't beat a good team with him getting nowhere near 20 points. It is up to him and Wojo to figure out how to prevent such things. Maybe they can't. We'll see.

3./4. My biggest concern is that even when they have a dunk, they take so long to get to the rim that they get contested. We lost 6-8 points yesterday when the game was still a game. Agree about Ed's traveling. It's so predictable. The refs even let him get away with it some time. Having said all that, though, Theo absolutely has developed; he has had plenty of good games to show as much. Unfortunately, he's not consistently good, and that's what we need out of him. If yesterday's game was a sign that Jayce finally is healthy and that's the kind of effort we'll get from him regularly, Theo and Ed will see their playing time decrease.

6. I really didn't think it was intentional, but I don't play soccer.

10. Even 9-3 wouldn't be disastrous, but 10-2 will be solid IMHO, and right about what I thought we'd be. Saturday's game will be big -- a chance to get a good road win.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TFlegend on December 02, 2019, 08:49:03 AM
As a resident of MD, I needed this one more than the average November game.  The no-show from Markus was especially troubling, yet all too predictable.  My neighbors/friends don't get what the hype was about.  They'd much rather have Cowans than Markus.  I think I would, too. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 08:51:36 AM
A few thoughts...


4) Wojo came in with a rep for developing bigs, but that's been a failing so far. From Fischer to Heldt to John to Morrow, I just haven't seen strides from those players.


Now even the middle age guys memories are going.  No stride from Heldt or John as freshmen as they advanced? Really?  Morrow has been wildly inconsistent, but will disagree with the others.  Are they elite players...absolutely not....they were never going to be.


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/max-heldt-1.html

John more than doubled his assists, rebounds, blocks from freshman to sophomore year...almost points.



Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 02, 2019, 08:51:58 AM
Ed hunches over and actually makes himself smaller while traveling.   
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 08:52:09 AM
The irony meter just broke

Still still still waiting on your investing claim....
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 08:54:42 AM
As a resident of MD, I needed this one more than the average November game.  The no-show from Markus was especially troubling, yet all too predictable.  My neighbors/friends don't get what the hype was about.  They'd much rather have Cowans than Markus.  I think I would, too.

Were the 40 and 51 also "all too predictable"? Last season, were his consecutive games of 45, 21, 27, 26, 45, 26, 8, 26, 53, 26, 24, 23, 31, 36, 17, 38, 36 and 28 "all too predictable"?

Do you think fans of USC, Buffalo, Kansas State and the numerous BEast teams he has torched think he's overrated?

Is he the only player in basketball history who is supposed to be immune to a bad game?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 02, 2019, 09:08:03 AM


Is he the only player in basketball history who is supposed to be immune to a bad game?

Well, yes.   Like all Marquette players, he is supposed to be immune to ever having a bad game.    Just like our bigs are supposed to arrive fully formed and not need to develop.    Like our players should never get tired.    Our freshmen should be 110% game ready when they arrive on campus and then get better.     Just like our coaches are never allowed to miss on a recruit, mis-time a TO, and should arrive with the combined knowledge of Wooden, Knight, K, Izzo.     Marquette should never lose, and when they do, it is the apocalypse.     Duh. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: lawdog77 on December 02, 2019, 09:13:06 AM
Were the 40 and 51 also "all too predictable"? Last season, were his consecutive games of 45, 21, 27, 26, 45, 26, 8, 26, 53, 26, 24, 23, 31, 36, 17, 38, 36 and 28 "all too predictable"?

Do you think fans of USC, Buffalo, Kansas State and the numerous BEast teams he has torched think he's overrated?

Is he the only player in basketball history who is supposed to be immune to a bad game?
Agree. It's as if people are waiting in the wings for Markus to have an off game. It happens to shooters all of the time. I would say except for the second half of Wisconsin, I do not think the "off Markus" is the same as it was years past. He did not shoot us out of this game.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 02, 2019, 09:25:55 AM
Well, yes.   Like all Marquette players, he is supposed to be immune to ever having a bad game.    Just like our bigs are supposed to arrive fully formed and not need to develop.    Like our players should never get tired.    Our freshmen should be 110% game ready when they arrive on campus and then get better.     Just like our coaches are never allowed to miss on a recruit, mis-time a TO, and should arrive with the combined knowledge of Wooden, Knight, K, Izzo.     Marquette should never lose, and when they do, it is the apocalypse.     Duh.

Some criticism is over the top, and it's best to be ignored. Lately, the number of posts lamenting the over the top criticism is getting to be as prevalent as the "losing is unacceptable" posts.

Critiques about development of big men, Markus laying eggs with some regularity this year, and the current offensive rollercoaster are far from out of bounds and make for great discussion. Getting bent out of shape about someone being out of shape doesn't make for good threads. Not aimed at Tower specifically, this is just an example.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TSmith34 on December 02, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
Still still still waiting on your investing claim....
Oh Hoopaloop.  You got the investing thread shutdown, you got the MLB thread shut down not once but twice, you've gotten a dozen or more other threads shut down.  Now you are complaining about banned posters coming back under new names.   

Astonishing, but not really considering it's you.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: skianth16 on December 02, 2019, 09:30:20 AM
Were the 40 and 51 also "all too predictable"? Last season, were his consecutive games of 45, 21, 27, 26, 45, 26, 8, 26, 53, 26, 24, 23, 31, 36, 17, 38, 36 and 28 "all too predictable"?

Do you think fans of USC, Buffalo, Kansas State and the numerous BEast teams he has torched think he's overrated?

Is he the only player in basketball history who is supposed to be immune to a bad game?

I think all fans fall into this trap. We typically only see opponents once or twice a year, and that game becomes the only truth we know. So for Maryland fans who heard all the hype about Howard and then have only Sunday's game as their example of how he plays, yeah, he'll seem overrated. They're wrong, and that game is an outlier, but for a lot of them, that's going to be the only game they get to see him play.

If (and hopefully when) we shut down Powell against SHU this year, I'm sure we'll have more than just a few comments about how he's overrated and really not all that good. We'll be as wrong as the Maryland fans mentioned above, but it's part of the gloating over a win process.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
I think all fans fall into this trap. We typically only see opponents once or twice a year, and that game becomes the only truth we know. So for Maryland fans who heard all the hype about Howard and then have only Sunday's game as their example of how he plays, yeah, he'll seem overrated. They're wrong, and that game is an outlier, but for a lot of them, that's going to be the only game they get to see him play.

If (and hopefully when) we shut down Powell against SHU this year, I'm sure we'll have more than just a few comments about how he's overrated and really not all that good. We'll be as wrong as the Maryland fans mentioned above, but it's part of the gloating over a win process.

Yep yep.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: #UnleashHoward40shots on December 02, 2019, 09:38:11 AM
still waiting to #unleash your same crap you always do. 


Fixed
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Goose on December 02, 2019, 09:58:29 AM
While I am not leading the Howard for MU GOAT parade, the kid had a bad game and this is it. Anyone that takes a one game snapshot is not making an intelligent assessment. Kind of like I would like to see BB and Johnson repeat yesterdays performances several times before getting too excited.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: WarriorFan on December 02, 2019, 10:01:04 AM
Porky concurs with everything except Ed.  When Ed is on he's solid , and has proven he can score when needed.  Yes he had a bad game today but this strikes Porky as unfair.  Now that we have Jayce, if his performance today is a harbinger of what's to come, Porky would start him over Theo, but Porky has also long thought Ed should start over Theo, since he's much more of a scoring option and today aside, still very good defensively.
While Porky's views are respected, we both know that only time will tell.  Ed may redeem himself one day / one game.  At the moment he is a negative.  IMHO it's because he's trying to be something he's just not.  Every time he spins to face the basket I just cringe.  He has never beaten anyone in his life and suddenly (and unfortunately repeatedly) he thinks he can do an Alan Iverson on dudes far bigger and more athletic.  If he would just do what he did in a few games last year  (Bang, board, putback, foul) then I would once again respect his effort despite his lack of skill.  If this were not the NCAA and I was the coach, I'd fine him $10,000 for facing the basket, $1000 for each dribble, and $100k for each shot farther than 6" from the rim. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TAMU Garcia on December 02, 2019, 10:09:00 AM
On the development of bigs. I think Wojo has shown the ability to get them from A to B. Luke became a better rebounder and defender each year. Matt went from a benchwarmer to a solid backup C. Theo went from a guy who looks like Tarzan to a guy who defends like Tarzan.

But none of them took the next step,  becoming a 5 that was truly feared in the post on both sides of the post. Could be playstyle, could be they didn't have that high of ceilings, but it would be nice to compliment our guards with a dominate post player.

Ed has been the biggest head scratcher to me.  Looks significantly less than what he was at Indiana
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2019, 10:13:15 AM
Now even the middle age guys memories are going.  No stride from Heldt or John as freshmen as they advanced? Really?  Morrow has been wildly inconsistent, but will disagree with the others.  Are they elite players...absolutely not....they were never going to be.


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/max-heldt-1.html



You think people's memories are going. Maybe you should read your own links. As pointed out, Matt Heldt arrived on campus as a top 100 recruit (rsci #96)What do you think would be a fair ranking in that same class at the conclusion of his senior year? 400? 600? How's that for strides?
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: brewcity77 on December 02, 2019, 10:16:30 AM
1. Markus has had 3 bad games, though the Robert Morris one seemed semi-intentional on Wojo's part. We were blown out in the other 2. Given that we have only played 7 games, that''s disturbing. We can't beat a good team with him getting nowhere near 20 points. It is up to him and Wojo to figure out how to prevent such things. Maybe they can't. We'll see.

While that's true this year, I'm not really talking about this year. This goes all the way back to Howard fouling out in 7 minutes against #1 Villanova his freshman year. Or the home games against top-10 Xavier and Villanova as a sophomore where we were close and him playing even average would've put us over the top. Or the St. John's games last year.

A couple times a season, often in marquee games, Howard completely lays an egg and we end up losing. I get that it's hard for anyone to be on every night, and there's the "3 games in 4 days" argument, but that didn't seem to hurt Cowan yesterday. That hasn't been a problem for guys like Ponds and Powell against us.

Maybe I don't scrutinize those guys games against other marquee teams, but I feel like it's a given with Markus that 2-3 times per year, we're going to have a big game and he's going to be absent. I love the kid and when he's on there's no one like him, but when he's off it's painful, and it's not a new thing.

Now even the middle age guys memories are going.  No stride from Heldt or John as freshmen as they advanced? Really?  Morrow has been wildly inconsistent, but will disagree with the others.  Are they elite players...absolutely not....they were never going to be.


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/max-heldt-1.html

John more than doubled his assists, rebounds, blocks from freshman to sophomore year...almost points.

Heldt was a fine backup and never became more than that, even when he started. Low usage, solid efficiency, adequate defender, but never became even a fifth scoring option.

Theo also nearly doubled his minutes. He still leans in too much when defending (compare to how straight up Jayce usually is even when he jumps) and hasn't developed any reliable post moves, midrange ability (even 6-10 feet), or the ability to consistently finish with authority. As FBM noted, he takes too long to gather and get up with the ball. He's done that for 3 years now.

Also...using old metrics is a losing argument. Theo's advanced numbers were fairly flat. Assist rate from 3.7 to 4.4%, Offensive/Defensive rebounding from 8.2/15.9 to 11.1/16.2%. His raw numbers went up but as far as his advanced numbers, there was no jump from freshman to sophomore year and could be attributed as much to Matt Heldt NOT improving over 4 years as Theo improving.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 10:23:30 AM
You think people's memories are going. Maybe you should read your own links. As pointed out, Matt Heldt arrived on campus as a top 100 recruit (rsci #96)What do you think would be a fair ranking in that same class at the conclusion of his senior year? 400? 600? How's that for strides?

If Matt Heldt really was the 97th best player available that year, it must have been one really, really bad year for recruits. I appreciate how hard he worked, but he never should have averaged more than 10 mpg for a team with serious aspirations, and one could tell that was his ceiling early on.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 02, 2019, 10:28:28 AM
While that's true this year, I'm not really talking about this year. This goes all the way back to Howard fouling out in 7 minutes against #1 Villanova his freshman year. Or the home games against top-10 Xavier and Villanova as a sophomore where we were close and him playing even average would've put us over the top. Or the St. John's games last year.

A couple times a season, often in marquee games, Howard completely lays an egg and we end up losing. I get that it's hard for anyone to be on every night, and there's the "3 games in 4 days" argument, but that didn't seem to hurt Cowan yesterday. That hasn't been a problem for guys like Ponds and Powell against us.

Maybe I don't scrutinize those guys games against other marquee teams, but I feel like it's a given with Markus that 2-3 times per year, we're going to have a big game and he's going to be absent. I love the kid and when he's on there's no one like him, but when he's off it's painful, and it's not a new thing.

Agreed that we can't afford Markus to completely lay an egg like he did yesterday, especially in "big" games, and he should be able to avoid that now by finding other ways to score/help us. I mean, even when he drove to get to the FTL yesterday, he couldn't hit. It was a bad game for him, and painful to watch for us.

However, he has had long, long stretches without any such bad games -- including numerous games that I think we all would call "big" -- Nova, Creighton, Buffalo, K-State, Davidson, USC, X, Butler, St. John's, Providence, and on and on.

I wish he never had bad games, and I hope he can avoid having complete disasters in the future, as we have discussed. But I'll take his body of work, even in "big" games.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 10:39:00 AM
You think people's memories are going. Maybe you should read your own links. As pointed out, Matt Heldt arrived on campus as a top 100 recruit (rsci #96)What do you think would be a fair ranking in that same class at the conclusion of his senior year? 400? 600? How's that for strides?

Is a player's development, or lack thereof. solely on the head coach?
If so, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Junior Cadougan (RSCI 47), Erik Williams (RSCI 67) and Jamail Jones (RSCI 74).

Or maybe - and just hear me out for a moment - recruiting rankings aren't the best indicator of a player's potential. And maybe different teenagers have different development curves, and where a kid is at 17 isn't necessarily where he'll be at 21.

Just tossing it out there. Please resume making the exact same arguments you guys have been making for the past 12 months. Looks fun.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: TSmith34 on December 02, 2019, 10:50:34 AM
Ed has been the biggest head scratcher to me.  Looks significantly less than what he was at Indiana
This. (Although we know you meant Nebraska).  I'm sure Ed will make nice contributions in a game or two this year as he has done in the past, but the overall results have been underwhelming.  He travels nearly every time he gets the ball in the post.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 11:14:58 AM
On the development of bigs. I think Wojo has shown the ability to get them from A to B. Luke became a better rebounder and defender each year. Matt went from a benchwarmer to a solid backup C. Theo went from a guy who looks like Tarzan to a guy who defends like Tarzan.

But none of them took the next step,  becoming a 5 that was truly feared in the post on both sides of the post. Could be playstyle, could be they didn't have that high of ceilings, but it would be nice to compliment our guards with a dominate post player.

Ed has been the biggest head scratcher to me.  Looks significantly less than what he was at Indiana

Ed played at Nebraska not Indiana

Most of these guys were 3 star recruits, at some point this elite stride some of you want cannot happen because of who they are ( body type, athleticism, etc). They are what they are.  Did they get better, most did.  Ed looked good against USC, not so good against Maryland.  He’s an up and down player.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 11:18:23 AM
You think people's memories are going. Maybe you should read your own links. As pointed out, Matt Heldt arrived on campus as a top 100 recruit (rsci #96)What do you think would be a fair ranking in that same class at the conclusion of his senior year? 400? 600? How's that for strides?

I look at what Matt did freshman year through junior year...did he improve or not?

His senior year he was not playing because he was recruited over.  I realize your love affair with the RSCI, but when you get barely 100 it simply means a few “experts” ranked you but not all.  If you don’t think he improved his first three years, no one can help you.  He provided solid minutes his senior year, but he is unathletic, not super strong, he is what he is...a great kid, smart kid, did the best he could with the skills God gave him and he improved.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 11:20:27 AM
If Matt Heldt really was the 97th best player available that year, it must have been one really, really bad year for recruits. I appreciate how hard he worked, but he never should have averaged more than 10 mpg for a team with serious aspirations, and one could tell that was his ceiling early on.

Exactly
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 11:21:11 AM
Is a player's development, or lack thereof. solely on the head coach?
If so, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Junior Cadougan (RSCI 47), Erik Williams (RSCI 67) and Jamail Jones (RSCI 74).

Or maybe - and just hear me out for a moment - recruiting rankings aren't the best indicator of a player's potential. And maybe different teenagers have different development curves, and where a kid is at 17 isn't necessarily where he'll be at 21.

Just tossing it out there. Please resume making the exact same arguments you guys have been making for the past 12 months. Looks fun.

Or Dominic James under Buzz...etc.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 11:24:14 AM
While that's true this year, I'm not really talking about this year. This goes all the way back to Howard fouling out in 7 minutes against #1 Villanova his freshman year. Or the home games against top-10 Xavier and Villanova as a sophomore where we were close and him playing even average would've put us over the top. Or the St. John's games last year.

A couple times a season, often in marquee games, Howard completely lays an egg and we end up losing. I get that it's hard for anyone to be on every night, and there's the "3 games in 4 days" argument, but that didn't seem to hurt Cowan yesterday. That hasn't been a problem for guys like Ponds and Powell against us.

Maybe I don't scrutinize those guys games against other marquee teams, but I feel like it's a given with Markus that 2-3 times per year, we're going to have a big game and he's going to be absent. I love the kid and when he's on there's no one like him, but when he's off it's painful, and it's not a new thing.

Heldt was a fine backup and never became more than that, even when he started. Low usage, solid efficiency, adequate defender, but never became even a fifth scoring option.

Theo also nearly doubled his minutes. He still leans in too much when defending (compare to how straight up Jayce usually is even when he jumps) and hasn't developed any reliable post moves, midrange ability (even 6-10 feet), or the ability to consistently finish with authority. As FBM noted, he takes too long to gather and get up with the ball. He's done that for 3 years now.

Also...using old metrics is a losing argument. Theo's advanced numbers were fairly flat. Assist rate from 3.7 to 4.4%, Offensive/Defensive rebounding from 8.2/15.9 to 11.1/16.2%. His raw numbers went up but as far as his advanced numbers, there was no jump from freshman to sophomore year and could be attributed as much to Matt Heldt NOT improving over 4 years as Theo improving.

IF you think they didn’t improve, fine.  Their minutes increased because they became better players and earned them.  Big jumps? Nope.  And based on who they were, not going to happen.

By the way, look at Luke...had three college coaches including Jesus H himself currently in Texas, did he make huge strides under any of them?  Nope.  Did he improve...yes....but three coaches couldn’t get him to make huge strides under the criteria you are using currently.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: brewcity77 on December 02, 2019, 11:48:04 AM
By the way, look at Luke...had three college coaches including Jesus H himself currently in Texas, did he make huge strides under any of them?  Nope.  Did he improve...yes....but three coaches couldn’t get him to make huge strides under the criteria you are using currently.

So you’re painting me as a Buzz advocate? Maybe you should slow down and take it one post at a time.

Luke didn’t make huge strides. His best defensive year was here in the zone, but offensively he was basically the same guy all three years under Wojo. So you’re proving my point. Thanks for agreeing.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
Is a player's development, or lack thereof. solely on the head coach?
If so, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Junior Cadougan (RSCI 47), Erik Williams (RSCI 67) and Jamail Jones (RSCI 74).

Or maybe - and just hear me out for a moment - recruiting rankings aren't the best indicator of a player's potential. And maybe different teenagers have different development curves, and where a kid is at 17 isn't necessarily where he'll be at 21.

Just tossing it out there. Please resume making the exact same arguments you guys have been making for the past 12 months. Looks fun.

Erik Williams and Jamail Jones clearly didn't develop at Marquette. Maybe they were overrated, maybe they didn't work hard enough, maybe Buzz did a crappy job with them. IDK.

But here's the thing: I didn't post anything preposterous about the imagined "strides" they took at Marquette under Buzz's tutelage. Why? Because it would be BS - Just like citing Matt Heldt's "strides" under Wojo is BS.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
Erik Williams and Jamail Jones clearly didn't develop at Marquette. Maybe they were overrated, maybe they didn't work hard enough, maybe Buzz did a crappy job with them. IDK.

But here's the thing: I didn't post anything preposterous about the imagined "strides" they took at Marquette under Buzz's tutelage. Why? Because it would be BS - Just like citing Matt Heldt's "strides" under Wojo is BS.

Heldt was unquestionably better when he left than when he arrived. I mean, it may be marginally so, but he was better.
We probably could agree that some kids develop better or differently than other kids, irregardless of the all-knowing RSCI. but that wouldn't allow us to bicker and fuss so much.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Eldon on December 02, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
Markus didn't have an off game. He got shut down.

Turgeon said "I'll let the Bailey kid beat us. I dare him." It wasn't enough.

Wojo on bigs: guys naturally progress as they play more games.

Hence the relevant question is whether the bigs improved beyond what they would have with the mere passage of time.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: JakeBarnes on December 02, 2019, 04:12:04 PM
Markus didn't have an off game. He got shut down.

Turgeon said "I'll let the Bailey kid beat us. I dare him." It wasn't enough.

Wojo on bigs: guys naturally progress as they play more games.

Hence the relevant question is whether the bigs improved beyond what they would have with the mere passage of time.

It was both of those, from my perspective. He was able to find some very clean looks and it appeared that he didn't really have the legs for the game. Most the clearly open 3s he got fell short. Again, it felt a lot like the Old Spice tourney where they team was fatigued.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 06:59:55 PM
So you’re painting me as a Buzz advocate? Maybe you should slow down and take it one post at a time.

Luke didn’t make huge strides. His best defensive year was here in the zone, but offensively he was basically the same guy all three years under Wojo. So you’re proving my point. Thanks for agreeing.

How am I painting you as a Buzz advocate?  I’m not.  I think we all know who here thinks he (Buzz) walks on water.

That said, I do think Buzz is a good coach as I do Wojo and Crean.  None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.  Some guys you can improve, but when we say huge strides or big jumps, they just aren’t capable due to limitations.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 02, 2019, 07:50:05 PM
It was both of those, from my perspective. He was able to find some very clean looks and it appeared that he didn't really have the legs for the game. Most the clearly open 3s he got fell short. Again, it felt a lot like the Old Spice tourney where they team was fatigued.

We must have watched a different game.  As I recall he only had a couple of marginally clean looks.  Most were hotly contested by Wiggins and Morsell who are 6'6" and 6'5". 

I can agree he may have been fatigued, given that he shot 26 and 24 times on back to back nights even with the one day off.  That kind of shot volume, especially for a guy 5'10", takes it out of your legs.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: hairy worthen on December 02, 2019, 08:15:39 PM
We must have watched a different game.  As I recall he only had a couple of marginally clean looks.  Most were hotly contested by Wiggins and Morsell who are 6'6" and 6'5". 

I can agree he may have been fatigued, given that he shot 26 and 24 times on back to back nights even with the one day off.  That kind of shot volume, especially for a guy 5'10", takes it out of your legs.
I dont know. Having tired legs sounds like a weak excuse to me. Maybe if he was 60, but not at 20 with a day of rest. How about giving credit to the defense combined with  an off shooting day.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2019, 08:31:35 PM
None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.

So, none of them (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) got huge strides out of Luke, Heldt, John or Morrow. Really??!! Well, since none of them EVER PLAYED for Buzz and only one of them played (briefly) for Crean - WTF is your point? No need to answer. We all know (other than hearing yourself talk) there was none.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: brewcity77 on December 02, 2019, 09:01:03 PM
That said, I do think Buzz is a good coach as I do Wojo and Crean.  None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.  Some guys you can improve, but when we say huge strides or big jumps, they just aren’t capable due to limitations.

Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 02, 2019, 09:03:45 PM
Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?

Did the plumlees or zoubeck develop? Because as I recall Wojo was in charge of bigs
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Pakuni on December 02, 2019, 09:16:14 PM
Did the plumlees or zoubeck develop? Because as I recall Wojo was in charge of bigs

All three Plumlees played in the NBA, not bad considering only one was ranked in the RSCI top 50.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 02, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
All three Plumlees played in the NBA, not bad considering only one was ranked in the RSCI top 50.

Really? Had no idea they were that low. Talk about a different era of duke recruiting. Back then K actually had to coach players
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 02, 2019, 10:19:35 PM
Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?

You have to recruit who you can get, especially as a young, unproven coach.  At the end of the day, you need players.

Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2019, 10:51:07 PM


Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

Yep. And he made a big initial splash and jump (from his IU numbers) when he became eligible at MU. Unfortunately he never was as good again as he was at the very start...
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Marcus92 on December 02, 2019, 11:15:29 PM
11.  I still believe in the upside of this team.  Time to go back to work.

I know Markus is going to have off games. When that happens, we're going to have a tough time winning. But this one wasn't even close. And it doesn't just fall on Markus.

Koby, Theo, Greg, Jayce and Ed combined to shoot 2-9 from 2-point range and 1-7 beyond the arc. Marquette got out-rebounded on both ends. We lost the turnover battle. The defense was porous, especially inside. And Maryland looked like the stronger, more physical team.

I'm not overly concerned about losing to a Top 10 team away from home in a non-conference tournament. I still think MU has plenty of talent on the roster. But it hasn't come together yet.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: brewcity77 on December 03, 2019, 06:13:47 AM
You have to recruit who you can get, especially as a young, unproven coach.  At the end of the day, you need players.

Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

Practice only. He had him for zero games. Fischer made his Marquette debut against Arizona State on December 16, 2014. Steve Wojciechowski was the coach of Marquette for that game and all subsequent games Luke played.

Luke was at Indiana with Crean from October (Hoosier Hysteria) until mid-December. So about 2.5 months. Buzz had him from mid-December to mid-March, so about 3 months. Wojo had the rest of his career.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 09:33:59 AM
So, none of them (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) got huge strides out of Luke, Heldt, John or Morrow. Really??!! Well, since none of them EVER PLAYED for Buzz and only one of them played (briefly) for Crean - WTF is your point? No need to answer. We all know (other than hearing yourself talk) there was none.

I’m not sure if you noticed the “.” after Luke.  That’s called a period.  It ends a sentence.  The sentence was about how no one could get huge strides from Heldt, because he was limited despite your RSCi nonsense.   The next sentence was me saying the other three are also not going to make huge strides if I were to guess, because they are also limited.  New sentence.

But I am glad to see the bat signal went off and the chief Buzz fluffer was here to answer the call to defend him, even though the other three guys progress had nothing to do with Buzz, but their own athletic limitations.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 09:35:21 AM
Yep. And he made a big initial splash and jump (from his IU numbers) when he became eligible at MU. Unfortunately he never was as good again as he was at the very start...

Yup, where he was the only real center at MU vs one of three at IU, he made that jump....and the. Nothing.  Thankfully he didn’t regress like DJ did under Buzz.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 03, 2019, 11:29:39 AM
Yup, where he was the only real center at MU vs one of three at IU, he made that jump....and the. Nothing.  Thankfully he didn’t regress like DJ did under Buzz.

To say that James “regressed” as a senior is a big stretch and just more Buzz hate from you.  His role that year was exactly what it should’ve been—facilitator to better shooters/scorers and lockdown defender.  Yeah, his FT% was beyond the pale, but he was never a good shooter.  He certainly didn’t regress, he just gave way to players in McNeal and Matthews who by that time had established themselves as the alpha dogs.  If DJ regressed at all, that regression happened under Crean during the previous two seasons.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
To say that James “regressed” as a senior is a big stretch and just more Buzz hate from you.  His role that year was exactly what it should’ve been—facilitator to better shooters/scorers and lockdown defender.  Yeah, his FT% was beyond the pale, but he was never a good shooter.  He certainly didn’t regress, he just gave way to players in McNeal and Matthews who by that time had established themselves as the alpha dogs.  If DJ regressed at all, that regression happened under Crean during the previous two seasons.

I would have expected his senior season to be highest in assists then...nope. 
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 11:37:42 AM
I would have expected his senior season to be highest in assists then...nope. 


It increased, both in APG and AST%, from his sophomore and junior years.  He also improved his shooting over his sophomore and juniors years as well, matching his freshman year EFG%.

DJ was by far having his best season since his freshman year when he got hurt.  Saying otherwise is revisionist history.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 03, 2019, 11:46:06 AM

It increased, both in APG and AST%, from his sophomore and junior years.  He also improved his shooting over his sophomore and juniors years as well, matching his freshman year EFG%.

DJ was by far having his best season since his freshman year when he got hurt.  Saying otherwise is revisionist history.

Your facts are fun, Sultan, but hoopaloop doesn't care about them. He was just trying to irritate and instigate Lenny.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 03, 2019, 11:52:20 AM

It increased, both in APG and AST%, from his sophomore and junior years.  He also improved his shooting over his sophomore and juniors years as well, matching his freshman year EFG%.

DJ was by far having his best season since his freshman year when he got hurt.  Saying otherwise is revisionist history.
But, Chico’s said senior season in terms highest in numbers of assists.  They were not as his frosh numbers were greater.  Though,  DJ obviously had a very fine senior season and was was a beast on defense.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 03, 2019, 01:55:41 PM
But, Chico’s said senior season in terms highest in numbers of assists.  They were not as his frosh numbers were greater.  Though,  DJ obviously had a very fine senior season and was was a beast on defense.

So, he regressed under Buzz because he broke his foot and his number of assists for the season declined because he played in less games?  Makes sense to only one poster.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 03, 2019, 02:07:23 PM
So, he regressed under Buzz because he broke his foot and his number of assists for the season declined because he played in less games?  Makes sense to only one poster.
His assists per game were 5.4 as a frosh and 5.0 as a senior while his ppg dropped consistently from 15 as a frosh to 11 as a senior.  Whatever, I did say he had a very fine senior season.  No suggestion that he regressed at all.  Realistically,  despite the numbers, he was more effective as a senior as a leader.  His defense was also superb.  As to the numbers, they were what they were.  Numbers don’t always tell the whole story.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Goose on December 03, 2019, 02:09:26 PM
I wish every player at MU regressed in similar manner of D James regression. His senior year, prior to injury, was my kind of player. Watching him play D was a joy to watch.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 03, 2019, 02:12:29 PM
His assists per game were 5.4 as a frosh and 5.0 as a senior while his ppg dropped consistently from 15 as a frosh to 11 as a senior.  Whatever, I did say he had a very fine senior season.  No suggestion that he regressed at all.  Realistically,  despite the numbers, he was more effective as a senior as a leader.  His defense was also superb.  As to the numbers, they were what they were.  Numbers don’t always tell the whole story.

And, Mo Acker transferred in.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 03, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
And, Mo Acker transferred in.
Yup, gotta look at the whole story as I noted.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 03, 2019, 02:43:31 PM
DJ's scoring dropped as Jerel became the all time leading scorer and Wes was unleashed.  Assist drop is nominal.  And he was playing ridiculously well as a team leader, as well as playing the beat on-ball defense from a PG that I can recall.   In short, he was becoming a complete player.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 02:46:44 PM
His assists per game were 5.4 as a frosh and 5.0 as a senior while his ppg dropped consistently from 15 as a frosh to 11 as a senior.  Whatever, I did say he had a very fine senior season.  No suggestion that he regressed at all.  Realistically,  despite the numbers, he was more effective as a senior as a leader.  His defense was also superb.  As to the numbers, they were what they were.  Numbers don’t always tell the whole story.


Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: tower912 on December 03, 2019, 02:49:00 PM

Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.

Everybody else knows.   Prepare for the carpet bombing to commence.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MUfan12 on December 03, 2019, 02:54:59 PM
DJ's scoring dropped as Jerel became the all time leading scorer and Wes was unleashed.  Assist drop is nominal.  And he was playing ridiculously well as a team leader, as well as playing the beat on-ball defense from a PG that I can recall.   In short, he was becoming a complete player.

Wes made a leap as a senior as well.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: NickelDimer on December 03, 2019, 03:07:28 PM

Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.
Spot on
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 03:40:10 PM

Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.

Facts on top of facts on top of facts. Well done.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Eldon on December 03, 2019, 03:54:05 PM
So, he regressed under Buzz because he broke his foot and his number of assists for the season declined because he played in less games?  Makes sense to only one poster.

False. Billy and Dad have also claimed that it makes sense.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 03, 2019, 04:02:54 PM

Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.
Never said anything about regression.  Just addressed numbers and stated that numbers do not tell the whole story and that DJ had a very nice senior season.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 06:52:42 PM

It increased, both in APG and AST%, from his sophomore and junior years.  He also improved his shooting over his sophomore and juniors years as well, matching his freshman year EFG%.

DJ was by far having his best season since his freshman year when he got hurt.  Saying otherwise is revisionist history.

His best assists per game was his Freshman year.  I was responding to the poster saying he was merely distributing the ball that’s why his points per game came down.  Well, that’s a little odd considering his freshman year was his highest PPG and host highest APG.  Also his highest rebounds per game.  Also his highest blocks per game. 

I would argue his freshman year was his best year....feel free to think differently.

Would have been great to have Tyshawn Taylor on the team his senior year when DJ was hurt.  Since we love talking about the Hausers, let’s add that one, too.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 03, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
I would argue his freshman year was his best year.

Nice to see you agree completely that he regressed the next two years under Crean before having a fine senior season.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 07:04:45 PM

Cheeks made the claim that DJ "regressed under Buzz."  He played one year under Buzz.  During that year, he saw increases in his assist rate, his assists per game and his EFG% when compared to his last two years under Crean.

He didn't regress at all under Buzz.  He regressed under Crean, and then rebounded under Buzz.

Cheeks was flat out wrong.

His last year under Buzz

PPG down over 8% despite playing more minutes per game
FT% way down 30%
3Pt% down 8%
Etc

I like DJ, a ton.  As a senior, I was surprised to see some of his key stats impacted to the negative.  In my opinion, his best overall year was his freshman year.  I agree that each year is different, asked to do different things, different teammates, all that goes into it as well.  Purely my opinion.

Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Nukem2 on December 03, 2019, 07:21:55 PM
His last year under Buzz

PPG down over 8% despite playing more minutes per game
FT% way down 30%
3Pt% down 8%
Etc

I like DJ, a ton.  As a senior, I was surprised to see some of his key stats impacted to the negative.  In my opinion, his best overall year was his freshman year.  I agree that each year is different, asked to do different things, different teammates, all that goes into it as well.  Purely my opinion.
His frosh season was special.  But so was his senior season in a far different way.  Screw the stats.  Had he not fractured his foot vs. UConn, MU was a Final 4 team.  Again, stats don’t tell the whole story.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2019, 07:26:31 PM
His last year under Buzz

PPG down over 8% despite playing more minutes per game
FT% way down 30%
3Pt% down 8%
Etc

I like DJ, a ton.  As a senior, I was surprised to see some of his key stats impacted to the negative.  In my opinion, his best overall year was his freshman year.  I agree that each year is different, asked to do different things, different teammates, all that goes into it as well.  Purely my opinion.

FT%??? OMG. The facts are obvious and irrefutable. Dom arrived a stud, regressed under Crean, bounced back under Buzz. Want to ignore the facts because of your biases? Why not? It's what you do. The rest of us will LOL.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 03, 2019, 07:30:01 PM
His last year under Buzz

PPG down over 8% despite playing more minutes per game
FT% way down 30%
3Pt% down 8%
Etc

I like DJ, a ton.  As a senior, I was surprised to see some of his key stats impacted to the negative.  In my opinion, his best overall year was his freshman year.  I agree that each year is different, asked to do different things, different teammates, all that goes into it as well.  Purely my opinion.

Well, you can't blame him that the coach who recruited him and said he was with the three amigos to the end bailed on him...and DJ had to hear about it on ESPN from his coach's brother-in-law.  I am sure that sent DJ into a tailspin, especially after said coach talked him out of going pro after that great freshman season.

That douche made millions while DJ was left with latex balloons to sell.  Luckily, the coach who replaced him taught DJ his faith and the ability to forgive the crimson turncoat.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 03, 2019, 08:24:36 PM
His best assists per game was his Freshman year.  I was responding to the poster saying he was merely distributing the ball that’s why his points per game came down.  Well, that’s a little odd considering his freshman year was his highest PPG and host highest APG.  Also his highest rebounds per game.  Also his highest blocks per game. 

I would argue his freshman year was his best year....feel free to think differently.

Would have been great to have Tyshawn Taylor on the team his senior year when DJ was hurt.  Since we love talking about the Hausers, let’s add that one, too.

Blah, blah, blah...

He did not regress under Buzz, which was your original point.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Bad_Reporter on December 03, 2019, 08:33:04 PM
Well, you can't blame him that the coach who recruited him and said he was with the three amigos to the end bailed on him...and DJ had to hear about it on ESPN from his coach's brother-in-law.  I am sure that sent DJ into a tailspin, especially after said coach talked him out of going pro after that great freshman season.

That douche made millions while DJ was left with latex balloons to sell.  Luckily, the coach who replaced him taught DJ his faith and the ability to forgive the crimson turncoat.

Best post of the year imo.   

DJ will always be a top 3 warrior to me.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 10:31:37 PM
Well, you can't blame him that the coach who recruited him and said he was with the three amigos to the end bailed on him...and DJ had to hear about it on ESPN from his coach's brother-in-law.  I am sure that sent DJ into a tailspin, especially after said coach talked him out of going pro after that great freshman season.

That douche made millions while DJ was left with latex balloons to sell.  Luckily, the coach who replaced him taught DJ his faith and the ability to forgive the crimson turncoat.

Because he wasn’t going to be drafted after his freshman year, one of the other all time great myths here.  We had this conversation with Keefe (RIP) a few months back with plenty of links and attributes by draft experts that had him no way going...but I like Bigfoot and Lochness Monster, too.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 03, 2019, 10:33:47 PM
His frosh season was special.  But so was his senior season in a far different way.  Screw the stats.  Had he not fractured his foot vs. UConn, MU was a Final 4 team.  Again, stats don’t tell the whole story.

MU definitely had a shot for a nice run that last year.  Tyshawn Taylor as a backup would have been great, but he wanted no part of Buzz.

I agree that DJ had a nice senior season in many categories, but a rather odd drop off in some others.  Who messed with his shooting stroke.  I’ve never seen a guy for three years hit at 65% basically each year and drop to the mid 40’s his last year.  Very odd.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: 79Warrior on December 04, 2019, 12:15:40 AM
Because he wasn’t going to be drafted after his freshman year, one of the other all time great myths here.  We had this conversation with Keefe (RIP) a few months back with plenty of links and attributes by draft experts that had him no way going...but I like Bigfoot and Lochness Monster, too.

The myth around here is mostly of your making.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: WarriorFan on December 04, 2019, 12:30:18 AM
Because he wasn’t going to be drafted after his freshman year, one of the other all time great myths here.  We had this conversation with Keefe (RIP) a few months back with plenty of links and attributes by draft experts that had him no way going...but I like Bigfoot and Lochness Monster, too.
Yep, let's be real.  DJ was a fun player to watch and he could jump out of the gym, but 5'11" guys who can't shoot don't get drafted.  We might even learn soon what happens to 5'11" guys who CAN shoot.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 07:14:53 AM
The myth around here is mostly of your making.

No he’s right. No way DJ was getting drafted in the first round after his freshman year.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 07:15:50 AM
MU definitely had a shot for a nice run that last year.  Tyshawn Taylor as a backup would have been great, but he wanted no part of Buzz.

I agree that DJ had a nice senior season in many categories, but a rather odd drop off in some others.  Who messed with his shooting stroke.  I’ve never seen a guy for three years hit at 65% basically each year and drop to the mid 40’s his last year.  Very odd.

His EFG tied his freshman year high. Improved from sophomore and junior years.

Oh I noticed you meants FT%.  I mean...who cares?  It's not that important of a stat.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 04, 2019, 08:07:57 AM
Because he wasn’t going to be drafted after his freshman year, one of the other all time great myths here.  We had this conversation with Keefe (RIP) a few months back with plenty of links and attributes by draft experts that had him no way going...but I like Bigfoot and Lochness Monster, too.

Sarcasm is lost on you...
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 04, 2019, 08:25:22 AM
MU definitely had a shot for a nice run that last year.  Tyshawn Taylor as a backup would have been great, but he wanted no part of Buzz.

I agree that DJ had a nice senior season in many categories, but a rather odd drop off in some others.  Who messed with his shooting stroke.  I’ve never seen a guy for three years hit at 65% basically each year and drop to the mid 40’s his last year.  Very odd.

I feel like the whole “Tyshawn Taylor wanted no part of Buzz” thing is also false.  This is all so long ago, but I seem to recall Taylor using Crean’s departure as an excuse to bolt for Kansas, which was his dream school.  As soon as Crean left, we had no chance of keeping Taylor, regardless of who our next coach was.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 04, 2019, 08:43:44 AM
I feel like the whole “Tyshawn Taylor wanted no part of Buzz” thing is also false.  This is all so long ago, but I seem to recall Taylor using Crean’s departure as an excuse to bolt for Kansas, which was his dream school.  As soon as Crean left, we had no chance of keeping Taylor, regardless of who our next coach was.


Furthermore, my recollection is that they had a nice interaction at whatever Thanksgiving tournament MU and KU played in that next year.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: IrwinFletcher on December 04, 2019, 08:46:49 AM
If I recall, Tyshawn’s Mom and Buzz had developed a very tight bond during the recruiting process.  I think that had something to do with the reunion at that Thanksgiving tourney.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: MU82 on December 04, 2019, 08:57:05 AM
MU definitely had a shot for a nice run that last year.  Tyshawn Taylor as a backup would have been great, but he wanted no part of Buzz.

Odartey Blankson "wanted no part of" Crean.

Ipso fatso, Crean cost us at least two certain national titles.

And think about all the players who "wanted no part of" Wojo, costing us goodness knows how many Sweet 16s or better.

This is fun. Anybody can play this game of throwing out crapola just to try to incite others.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: cheebs09 on December 04, 2019, 09:04:55 AM
I feel like the whole “Tyshawn Taylor wanted no part of Buzz” thing is also false.  This is all so long ago, but I seem to recall Taylor using Crean’s departure as an excuse to bolt for Kansas, which was his dream school.  As soon as Crean left, we had no chance of keeping Taylor, regardless of who our next coach was.

Yup. To add on to other comments below this, I believe Buzz was the main recruiter for Taylor as well.

Kansas had an opening and I believe was Taylor’s dream school. Hurley used the opening of Crean leaving to get Taylor out of the LOI.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Waldo Jeffers on December 04, 2019, 10:49:43 AM
Because he wasn’t going to be drafted after his freshman year, one of the other all time great myths here.  We had this conversation with Keefe (RIP) a few months back with plenty of links and attributes by draft experts that had him no way going...but I like Bigfoot and Lochness Monster, too.

Sory to hear of his passing  :(
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 04, 2019, 01:58:15 PM
Sarcasm is lost on you...

Oh I recognized it, thought it was pretty good, and gave some sarcasm back.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 04, 2019, 01:58:49 PM
Sory to hear of his passing  :(

Not really dead, apparently Scoop dead.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: Cheeks on December 04, 2019, 02:00:47 PM
I feel like the whole “Tyshawn Taylor wanted no part of Buzz” thing is also false.  This is all so long ago, but I seem to recall Taylor using Crean’s departure as an excuse to bolt for Kansas, which was his dream school.  As soon as Crean left, we had no chance of keeping Taylor, regardless of who our next coach was.

I suggest you read what his coach said before and after the meeting with Buzz. 

I agree we had no chance with Buzz keeping him, someone else would have depended who that someone else is.

Which of course is why the anti-Wojo folks never seem to get it.  They think Wooden is walking into the door, and he isn’t.
Title: Re: Terrap-le
Post by: lawdog77 on December 04, 2019, 02:15:08 PM
Not really dead, apparently Scoop dead.
that's not cool, bro