MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on March 22, 2021, 09:57:14 PM
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https://today.marquette.edu/2021/03/committee-working-on-updating-university-seal/
What is wrong with the seal as it is?
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What's wrong with changing it?
MU changes its basketball uniforms seemingly every year and no one sees it as an affront.
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https://today.marquette.edu/2021/03/committee-working-on-updating-university-seal/
What is wrong with the seal as it is?
There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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Relevant links:
https://marquettewire.org/4034059/news/marquette-student-starts-petition-to-change-university-seal/
1869 painting by German-American artist Wilhelm Alfred Lamprecht named “Father Marquette and the Indians.”:
https://digitalmarquette.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p128701coll4/id/30/
Keep the kettle wolves, please.
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https://today.marquette.edu/2021/03/committee-working-on-updating-university-seal/
What is wrong with the seal as it is?
I’m as Conservative as they come, but I have to agree with Pakuni on this one. If you look at that seal and see anything other than Jordan Spieth telling his lowly caddy “GO GET THAT!” then you aren’t seeing the big picture.
I’m 100% sick of cancel culture and revisionist history, but I haven’t liked that seal since the first day I saw it back in the late 1980s. To me, it’s its own revisionist history, as the Natives knew the rivers and tributaries far better than our beloved Peres Marquette and Joliet. I think a more accurate description would have a tribal leader pointing the way for a subordinate Native rower while the Europeans sit and take notes of topography and surroundings.
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I think it would be cool to have an actual, live seal.
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Have any of you SEEN the new seal? How can you comment on whether its good or bad by a 1 sentence description?
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I didn't even know we had a seal. Does he juggle with his nose while he plays a horn?
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Wee gotta bee more woke, aina?
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The school has money for this chit? Seriously, pay a top flight basketball coach and let's make MU great again, aina?
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As long as none of the committee members were involved with the Marquette Gold fiasco I’m good.....
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A new Seal?
We're never gonna survive
Unless
We get a little
Cra-zy
Ok. Not so new.
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What's wrong with changing it?
MU changes its basketball uniforms seemingly every year and no one sees it as an affront.
I’ve got no problem with them changing the seal. But that’s a silly comparison.
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I’ve got no problem with them changing the seal. But that’s a silly comparison.
OK fine. They change the logo every decade.
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OK fine. They change the logo every decade.
Better. But still a bit silly.
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As long as none of the committee members were involved with the Marquette Gold fiasco I’m good.....
Replace the Native American on the seal with Bricky, and you are golden (pun intended).
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Don't over-think it.
(https://snipboard.io/ZtyPMN.jpg)
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South Park changed their flag, so this isn't without precedent.
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Don't over-think it.
(https://snipboard.io/ZtyPMN.jpg)
Can we have the wolves fighting over a beef 'n cheddar?
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I think it would be cool to have an actual, live seal.
Yes.
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We know why they are going to change the seal. See the thread about the Chicago statues.
Should we start a thread about what the University's new name will be?
(https://s17596.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Marquette-seal-II-e1523045191873.png)
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We know why they are going to change the seal. See the thread about the Chicago statues.
Should we start a thread about what the University's new name will be?
(https://s17596.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Marquette-seal-II-e1523045191873.png)
If the seal is just changed to a less stereotypical Indian and Marquette isn't standing & pointing then will you be upset?
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lowly caddy
Greller is the alpha of that duo.
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If the seal is just changed to a less stereotypical Indian and Marquette isn't standing & pointing then will you be upset?
Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.
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Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.
They will remove the native imagery. No doubt.
The University will not be renamed.
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Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.
Slippery slope fallacy. Please make an argument without logical fallacies that this is a bad thing.
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/
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Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.
lol. Very. Serious. Man. with VERY serious Concerns.
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Unfortunately none of this historical context matters. All that matters is the five-second unthinking emotional reaction you have to the seal.
Should the painting also come down?
(https://digitalmarquette.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/singleitem/image/p128701coll4/30/default.jpg?highlightTerms=)
Père Jacques Marquette meeting with American Indians during his 1673 expedition. Father Marquette stands in a canoe with two American Indian guides. The Mississippi River and bluffs are behind him. Oil painting owned by the Patrick and Beatrice Haggerty Museum of Art, Marquette University.
The image is taken from an 1869 Wilhelm Lamprecht painting, “Father Marquette and the Indians,” gifted to the university soon after its founding. The Lamprecht painting can be seen on the second floor of the Raynor Memorial Libraries.
According to a paper by university archivist Mark Thiel, scholars identified the native voyagers in the original painting as Metis, or men of mixed French and Native American ancestry who helped guide Marquette in present-day Wisconsin along with villages of Mascoutin or Illinois and Miami Native Americans.
The seal comes under criticism, however, as some members of the Marquette community argue the full painting differs significantly from the cropped version on the seal, resulting in an image that communicates dominance for Father Marquette over the Native American figure.
“The painting depicts Father Marquette essentially asking directions from a standing Native American,” Tol Foster, a professor in the English department who specializes in American Indian studies, said in an email. “The standing Native American is cut out of the seal, such that instead of asking for directions, Pere Marquette seems to be telling the Indian steering his canoe where to go, which is amusing if you consider that the person least likely to know directions in this strange new land would have been the explorer himself.”
Foster uses the seal in his classes to explore Native American representation. Similarly, Jodi Melamed, an associate professor of English and Africana Studies, incorporates the image into Marquette courses she teaches to focus on race and ethnic studies.
“Where Father Marquette is active and commanding, the Native figure appears passive and subservient,” Melamed said. “It’s the classic colonialist and white supremacist division of humanity being represented: the white Jesuit provides the direction, he’s the brains of the outfit, the Native person provides the labor and follows the white person’s lead.”
Others perceive the university’s depiction of Native Americans differently. Jacqueline Schram, faculty advisor of Marquette’s Native American Student Association, sees the image as an inspiration of reflection and hope that Marquette can work to improve its focus on Native American issues and students.
“For me, the Native American in our seal serves as both a source of pride and compass,” Schram said in an email. “The decision to indelibly etch the historic relationship between the First Peoples of Wisconsin and Father Marquette pays homage to the interdependency and inspires a sense of hope that this can be once again.”
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If the seal is just changed to a less stereotypical Indian and Marquette isn't standing & pointing then will you be upset?
Looks to me like the Indian is ignoring Pere Marquette pointing in the wrong direction and is continuing to paddle where he wants to go.
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I think the phrase "less stereotypical Indian" in this topic is quite ironic.
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Better. But still a bit silly.
Why?
Are seals for some reason sacrosanct relative to logos or uniforms?
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There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.
They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.
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Why?
Are seals for some reason sacrosanct relative to logos or uniforms?
Sacrosanct? Definitely not. But it’s a false equivalence. They are unrelated. It would make as much sense as saying that Marquette hasn’t changed its name in 113 years, so why should it change the seal? Or, Marquette changes the cafeteria menu three times a day, so why would changing the seal three times a day be an affront?
Change the seal or don’t change the seal. Makes absolutely no difference to me. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with how often the basketball uniforms or logos are changed.
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There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.
They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.
His wife in the front of the boat was cropped out of the image, is what you're saying. ;D
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Also, I see that the seal has already been changed once since I graduated. In 1994-95. I had no idea, and don’t care in the least.
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+1 warriorchick
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They will remove the native imagery. No doubt.
The University will not be renamed.
Yeah, and Wojo won't be fired you non-salesperson time-waster.
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I think it would be cool to have an actual, live seal.
I prefer a walrus
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I prefer a walrus
THE University of the Dingle Peninsula has already claimed the walrus.
Side note, if you take a crossaint, draw two eyes and use 2 plastic fork tines for tusks, you can make a walrussaint.
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His wife in the front of the boat was cropped out of the image, is what you're saying. ;D
Father Marquette had a wife? Now THAT might prompt some changes in the university's branding..
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Father Marquette had a wife? Now THAT might prompt some changes in the university's branding..
Please refer to him as Daddy Marquette from now on.
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I prefer a walrus
Will we change our mascot from Golden Eagles to Golden Walruses?
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Please refer to him as Daddy Marquette from now on.
His full name is Big Daddy Marquette!
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Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.
You're the smartest person on the planet Heisenberg, please do something. Correct, it is getting out of hand. Give Gale Boetticher a call when you get a chance. Oh...nevermind.
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Also, I see that the seal has already been changed once since I graduated. In 1994-95. I had no idea, and don’t care in the least.
Yup.
But on the other hand, when your entire identity is predicated on opening new fronts in a never-ending forever culture war, you don't let any perceived slight go to waste.
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I just hope the new one doesn’t look like it’s designed by a committee like the Milwaukee flag (not the People’s flag).
Even the current one has a lot going on compared to others.
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Will we change our mascot from Golden Eagles to Golden Walruses?
I believe it would be Golden Walri
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I really like the way the current seal looks. I would suggest keeping it substantially intact, and only changing the scene in question to show the Indian showing Fr. Marquette the way. Keep the same artistic style.
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They should put Joan of Arc on the seal, followed by rebranding us the Warriors with JOA as our mascot.
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I believe it would be Golden Walri
Wrong. Both Walrus and Walruses can be plural. And I don't think Walruses like to be called Walri. Other than that they are very comfortable in their own skin and have complete self-awareness like dolphins. They are mighty and would be an appropriate nickname for Marquette imao.
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Wrong. Both Walrus and Walruses can be plural. And I don't think Walruses like to be called Walri. Other than that they are very comfortable in their own skin and have complete self-awareness like dolphins. They are mighty and would be an appropriate nickname for Marquette imao.
I think any team with a Walrus as a mascot has to play at a slow pace though.
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There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.
They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.
You win the Interwebs today...
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They should put Joan of Arc on the seal, followed by rebranding us the Warriors with JOA as our mascot.
Cool. Joan of Arc was cool. Playing up the connection with the chapel would be cool.
I don't really understand the loyalty to the seal. It's a seal. It's fine. Some people want to change it, and that's fine too.
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Wrong. Both Walrus and Walruses can be plural. And I don't think Walruses like to be called Walri. Other than that they are very comfortable in their own skin and have complete self-awareness like dolphins. They are mighty and would be an appropriate nickname for Marquette imao.
Totally with you on this Muggsy.
And since Walrus/Walruses like cold temperatures, we could even turn down the thermostat in the Forvm on game days and create a real home court advantage.
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Totally with you on this Muggsy.
And since Walrus/Walruses like cold temperatures, we could even turn down the thermostat in the Forvm on game days and create a real home court advantage.
I'm envisioning retractable roof so we can play in the crisp Wisconsin winter air
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There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.
They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.
Shoulda just used Waze. Wooda avoided dis 'hole bs political poop, aina?
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They should put Joan of Arc on the seal, followed by rebranding us the Warriors with JOA as our mascot.
I'm totally on board with this. 1000%.
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If the seal is just changed to a less stereotypical Indian and Marquette isn't standing & pointing then will you be upset?
I am impressed that he could actually stand in a canoe without falling on his ass.
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They should put Joan of Arc on the seal, followed by rebranding us the Warriors with JOA as our mascot.
That's probably not going to happen. University seals don't usually have people on them.
They could put Joan of Arc Chapel on the seal.
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Totally with you on this Muggsy.
And since Walrus/Walruses like cold temperatures, we could even turn down the thermostat in the Forvm on game days and create a real home court advantage.
Us Vesties could get into the team spirit by wallowing in our seats.
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Every time MU wins as Walruses we should have a large clam/scallop bake. Fun fact: Walruses can consume 4K-6K clams in a single sitting.
:)
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Cool. Joan of Arc was cool. Playing up the connection with the chapel would be cool.
I don't really understand the loyalty to the seal. It's a seal. It's fine. Some people want to change it, and that's fine too.
+1
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Every time MU wins as Walruses we should have a large clam/scallop bake. Fun fact: Walruses can consume 4K-6K clams in a single sitting.
:)
QFE
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I mean, has anyone ever given twocraps about the seal? I sure never have, and in 20 years of being connected with MU haven't met a single soul who does. I'd say 95% of students couldn't tell you what the hell is on it.
So like, who cares what they do with the seal? This is a yawn.
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MU has too much free time on their hands.
Let’s go solve some real problems. Poverty, hunger, whirrled peas, flat or packer cut, crawlers or minnows, cardinals or badgers....which red sucks more.
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Given who is on the committee, I’m very concerned about what will come out of this process.
The committee is too big and unwieldy. There’s too many perspectives and we will end up looking at the here and now and not the lasting values for which Marquette stands.
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Given who is on the committee, I’m very concerned about what will come out of this process.
The committee is too big and unwieldy. There’s too many perspectives and we will end up looking at the here and now and not the lasting values for which Marquette stands.
This ^^^^^^^^
Cluster in the making.
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It's a picture. I'd wager that 99.9% of people who went to Marquette could even tell you what the top half of the seal symbolizes. I had to look it up.
The gold and red diagonal bands honor seven heroes from the House of Onaz, the maternal side of Ignatius' parentage, which distinguished itself in battle. The wolves symbolize the generosity of the House of Loyola — even the wolves found something in the kettle on which to feast.
Want the easy solution? Remove the FP from the picture entirely since it has nothing to do with Marquette. Or if that is too much, remove both people from the seal and use cross with AMDG around it. Boom done.
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It's a picture. I'd wager that 99.9% of people who went to Marquette could even tell you what the top half of the seal symbolizes. I had to look it up.
The gold and red diagonal bands honor seven heroes from the House of Onaz, the maternal side of Ignatius' parentage, which distinguished itself in battle. The wolves symbolize the generosity of the House of Loyola — even the wolves found something in the kettle on which to feast.
Want the easy solution? Remove the FP from the picture entirely since it has nothing to do with Marquette. Or if that is too much, remove both people from the seal and use cross with AMDG around it. Boom done.
I would keep the Marquette University 1881 "outer ring"
I would replace the entire interior with a drawing of the St. Joan of Arc chapel and "Numen Flumenque" somewhere.
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I wouldn't give in 1 inch to these pinko, radical commies. Tell 'em kiss ass, hey?
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I wouldn't give in 1 inch to these pinko, radical commies. Tell 'em kiss ass, hey?
Yes, fighting change tooth and nail. Very effective.
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Yes, fighting change tooth and nail. Very effective.
Wonder what it is like to be stuck in the 1960s?
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I would keep the Marquette University 1881 "outer ring"
I would replace the entire interior with a drawing of the St. Joan of Arc chapel and "Numen Flumenque" somewhere.
That was the change made in the mid 90's when I was there. 1881 was added in place of some flowery things. I found it amusing because just a year or so earlier Cudahy Hall opened with a large seal inlaid in the floor on the lower level that was now outdated.
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Given who is on the committee, I’m very concerned about what will come out of this process.
The committee is too big and unwieldy. There’s too many perspectives and we will end up looking at the here and now and not the lasting values for which Marquette stands.
I'd be more worried that the outcome will just be ugly. Design by committee is often a cluster. Just look at Milwaukee's (still official) flag. Everyone wants to have input at the expense of overall design and aesthetic.
Hopefully they just give the designer some notes up front, things they want to keep and things they don't, then review the mockups and pick the best one.
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https://marquettewire.org/4067455/featured/editorial-slow-mu-seal-redesign-failing-native-students-communities/
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Oh boy, here we go again. Can't wait for this public relations beauty, hey?
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The Gold of college seals?
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The 13 current undergraduate MU students who identify as Native American MUST BE HEARD!!!!
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The Gold of college seals?
A gold seal as the seal?
Would make muggsy and smith(with his weird obsession with posting seal photos, must be an odd fetish or something) happy.
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The 13 current undergraduate MU students who identify as Native American MUST BE HEARD!!!!
Right. Silence the minority.
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The extreme minority.
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... okay? The seal design is important to you because...?
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I think the seal should be redesigned if it's construed as offensive to a minority. That being said, if the University got a bunch of quotes from designers that were like "I'm gonna take this school to the cleaners" then I wouldn't blame them for saying "it's on like 10 things, go get a different Marquette shirt."
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The extreme minority.
Yeah, so who cares about them? They need not be heard.
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There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.
Seals are known for their bad peripheral vision.
Reading this thread, I don't know if I laughed or if I shook my head more.
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Yeah, so who cares about them? They need not be heard.
There is a huge difference between being heard and acting on the voice of a very small segment of the community looking for a grievance.
What's important is twofold. First, the university needs to ensure folks are being heard and where offense is taken, someone is listening and willing to consider the offense.
Second, there needs to be a clear process by which possible action should be evaluated. The process should be open and clear, so reason becomes the basis for an action.
I'm an old-timer but I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a seal in which Father Marquette is pointing the way in a canoe. That's probably what happened as the good padre's curiosity was aroused by things he saw along the way. If in fact we think the seal is racist, inflammatory or otherwise insulting to one or more segments of Marquette's stakeholders, then we have a hell of a lot bigger problem than a seal.
For if the notion prevails that a Roman Catholic priest leading a native American is insulting, then it is time to change the name of Marquette University, dump the Roman Catholic mission of the institution and run from everything we as Marquette grads, administrators and professors have stood for since 1881. This is just more than I can handle.
Dump Willie Wampum -- by all means. That was offensive.
Get Rid of Warriors -- yeah, I get it. Some found it offensive and while I would have strongly preferred we stay, I'm OK with being the Furry Birds. Gives me something to laugh about (the ugliness of the furry bird) and it probably keeps us out of the boiling kettle of oil the NCAA was preparing for us.
The Seal -- That just goes too far, because we're taking away something at the heart of our mission.
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The 13 current undergraduate MU students who identify as Native American MUST BE HEARD!!!!
And the other 99% of undergrads probably couldn’t care less.
Seriously though, BLM is right very questionable line you’re treading.
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I'm only vaguely aware that the seal exists. It's used on like 5 things.
This merits a big ole... fine. Whatever.
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Oh boy, here we go again. Can't wait for this public relations beauty, hey?
will they add the "land and water acknowledgment" into the seal?
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There is a huge difference between being heard and acting on the voice of a very small segment of the community looking for a grievance.
What's important is twofold. First, the university needs to ensure folks are being heard and where offense is taken, someone is listening and willing to consider the offense.
Second, there needs to be a clear process by which possible action should be evaluated. The process should be open and clear, so reason becomes the basis for an action.
I'm an old-timer but I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a seal in which Father Marquette is pointing the way in a canoe. That's probably what happened as the good padre's curiosity was aroused by things he saw along the way. If in fact we think the seal is racist, inflammatory or otherwise insulting to one or more segments of Marquette's stakeholders, then we have a hell of a lot bigger problem than a seal.
For if the notion prevails that a Roman Catholic priest leading a native American is insulting, then it is time to change the name of Marquette University, dump the Roman Catholic mission of the institution and run from everything we as Marquette grads, administrators and professors have stood for since 1881. This is just more than I can handle.
Dump Willie Wampum -- by all means. That was offensive.
Get Rid of Warriors -- yeah, I get it. Some found it offensive and while I would have strongly preferred we stay, I'm OK with being the Furry Birds. Gives me something to laugh about (the ugliness of the furry bird) and it probably keeps us out of the boiling kettle of oil the NCAA was preparing for us.
The Seal -- That just goes too far, because we're taking away something at the heart of our mission.
The voice of reason. Thank you, I agree with this completely.
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From what I can tell by looking at the painting, Pere Marquette could be asking what is that way or saying he'd like to see what is that way. Don't see the racism there at all. The seal, changes the image slightly to make it look a lot more like he is commanding rather than accompanying. If they do change the seal, only a tweak is needed, like using a different likeness of Pere Marquette, or just changing his hands so they are more open like they are in the painting and less pointing and ordering around.
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Im not saying I think the MU seal needs to be changed immediately or anything. But the idea that just because it’s (whatever tiny percentage of whatever population you’re discussing) means they should be silenced is, well, problematic.
Also, if nobody even knows what the seal is, who cares if it’s changed?
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The Seal -- That just goes too far, because we're taking away something at the heart of our mission.
Marquette University is a Catholic, Jesuit university dedicated to serving God by serving our students and contributing to the advancement of knowledge. Our mission, therefore, is the search for truth, the discovery and sharing of knowledge, the fostering of personal and professional excellence, the promotion of a life of faith, and the development of leadership expressed in service to others. All this we pursue for the greater glory of God and the common benefit of the human community.
Missing the part of MU's mission that involves a priest pointing over the head of a Native American.
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Pere Marquette is pointing the way to Salvation
Can't believe anyone missed that..
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Marquette University is a Catholic, Jesuit university dedicated to serving God by serving our students and contributing to the advancement of knowledge. Our mission, therefore, is the search for truth, the discovery and sharing of knowledge, the fostering of personal and professional excellence, the promotion of a life of faith, and the development of leadership expressed in service to others. All this we pursue for the greater glory of God and the common benefit of the human community.
Missing the part of MU's mission that involves a priest pointing over the head of a Native American.
Well, Father Marquette is on land the Indigenous bloke sitting in a canoe so any pointing would be above his head, even if it could just be just be Father Marquette responding to the directions he's being given and confirming them. And perhaps the Indigenous fellow was behind Father Marquette so it just looks like it's "over the head of a Native American" due to depth perception.
But no, it must be something insidious and worst of all "racist."
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Well, Father Marquette is on land the Indigenous bloke sitting in a canoe so any pointing would be above his head, even if it could just be just be Father Marquette responding to the directions he's being given and confirming them. And perhaps the Indigenous fellow was behind Father Marquette so it just looks like it's "over the head of a Native American" due to depth perception.
But no, it must be something insidious and worst of all "racist."
Hmmm. You'll have to show me where I wrote anything like that.
Just asking how a priest pointing over a Native American's head is "at the heart" of Marquette University's mission. Please explain.
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https://www.mysticstamp.com/Products/DisplayPicture.aspx?key=293373&FileID=/pictures/stamps_large/lg_303103.jpg
Here are 2 images, one in which a Native American is pointing, the other appears to be 4 Europeans exploring in a canoe.
The latter was a 1968 USPS commemorative stamp
Would either of these be appropriate?
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The seal has not been around since MU's founding and has had various changes throughout the years including 94-95 when they added the 1881 so it's not like minor tweak are unheard of.
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Marquette University, once again creating a problem when there was none, lol.
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https://marquettewire.org/4067455/featured/editorial-slow-mu-seal-redesign-failing-native-students-communities/
Apparently, these kids don't understand how this works. There are layers of focus groups, committee meetings, bureaucracy, etc. Not to mention the number of significant donors that would need to sign off...
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There is a huge difference between being heard and acting on the voice of a very small segment of the community looking for a grievance.
What's important is twofold. First, the university needs to ensure folks are being heard and where offense is taken, someone is listening and willing to consider the offense.
Second, there needs to be a clear process by which possible action should be evaluated. The process should be open and clear, so reason becomes the basis for an action.
I'm an old-timer but I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a seal in which Father Marquette is pointing the way in a canoe. That's probably what happened as the good padre's curiosity was aroused by things he saw along the way. If in fact we think the seal is racist, inflammatory or otherwise insulting to one or more segments of Marquette's stakeholders, then we have a hell of a lot bigger problem than a seal.
For if the notion prevails that a Roman Catholic priest leading a native American is insulting, then it is time to change the name of Marquette University, dump the Roman Catholic mission of the institution and run from everything we as Marquette grads, administrators and professors have stood for since 1881. This is just more than I can handle.
Dump Willie Wampum -- by all means. That was offensive.
Get Rid of Warriors -- yeah, I get it. Some found it offensive and while I would have strongly preferred we stay, I'm OK with being the Furry Birds. Gives me something to laugh about (the ugliness of the furry bird) and it probably keeps us out of the boiling kettle of oil the NCAA was preparing for us.
The Seal -- That just goes too far, because we're taking away something at the heart of our mission.
The seal is something "at the heart of our mission?" WTF are you talking about? It's literally just a fancy-a$$ logo for official documents.
Honestly they made way too big a deal of this. They should have simply changed it and moved on.
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Brother Fluff:
Conceptually, I agree that the seal is nothing more than ink on paper. But the symbolism behind it is what's stirring people. The imagery of Father Marquette and Louis Joliet with the native Americans of North America is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church's mission to go forth and spread the Good News.
That was part of Father Marquette's mission four centuries ago and still is part of Marquette's mission today -- to explore knowledge and to spread the news of Jesus Christ.
You and I probably are of different generations. But, I have to ask a simple question: If one is offended at an image of a Catholic Jesuit priest leading and, perhaps teaching, a band of peace-loving Native Americans then one can only wonder, "What on Earth are you doing at Marquette University?"
At what point does this stop?
Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?
Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?
Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?
I've been a willing and proud supporter of Marquette almost every year since I was graduated. I like what it was when I was there. I still like what Marquette is and I hope it stays true to its core beliefs in the future.
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A gold seal as the seal?
Would make muggsy and smith(with his weird obsession with posting seal photos, must be an odd fetish or something) happy.
seal <> sea lion
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Brother Fluff:
Conceptually, I agree that the seal is nothing more than ink on paper. But the symbolism behind it is what's stirring people. The imagery of Father Marquette and Louis Joliet with the native Americans of North America is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church's mission to go forth and spread the Good News.
That was part of Father Marquette's mission four centuries ago and still is part of Marquette's mission today -- to explore knowledge and to spread the news of Jesus Christ.
You and I probably are of different generations. But, I have to ask a simple question: If one is offended at an image of a Catholic Jesuit priest leading and, perhaps teaching, a band of peace-loving Native Americans then one can only wonder, "What on Earth are you doing at Marquette University?"
At what point does this stop?
Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?
Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?
Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?
I've been a willing and proud supporter of Marquette almost every year since I was graduated. I like what it was when I was there. I still like what Marquette is and I hope it stays true to its core beliefs in the future.
At what point does what stop? Maybe in the future Marquette will drop its affiliation with the Catholic Church. (It’s happened at many other schools with Christian roots.) Maybe it will drop basketball. No institution remains changeless.
Regardless the official seal is SOOOO low stakes. It could have simply been changed and no one really would have cared. If changing it means a traditionally oppressed minority feels better about the school, that’s fine by me.
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At what point does what stop? Maybe in the future Marquette will drop its affiliation with the Catholic Church. (It’s happened at many other schools with Christian roots.) Maybe it will drop basketball. No institution remains changeless.
Regardless the official seal is SOOOO low stakes. It could have simply been changed and no one really would have cared. If changing it means a traditionally oppressed minority feels better about the school, that’s fine by me.
Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.
Many of us couldn’t care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.
By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?
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Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.
Many of us couldn’t care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.
By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?
The Church has recognized and apologized for how it treated indigenous people during the colonialization era. Both Francis and JPII have issued apologies in that regard.
https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2015/07/09/53009/pope-apologizes-for-church-s-indigenous-offenses-c/
So why is a Catholic institution continuing to use a symbol of that past on its seal? I would argue that people who are asking for this change are closer to following the Word than those who are opposing it.
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The Church has recognized and apologized for how it treated indigenous people during the colonialization era. Both Francis and JPII have issued apologies in that regard.
https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2015/07/09/53009/pope-apologizes-for-church-s-indigenous-offenses-c/
So why is a Catholic institution continuing to use a symbol of that past on its seal? I would argue that people who are asking for this change are closer to following the Word than those who are opposing it.
Fluff, ole buddy, that is a blanket apology against any and all acts contrary to the Word, teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Teachings of Jesus.
To assume that Father Marquette committed the actions of which the Pope spoke requires evidence. Maybe it's out there, but everything I've seen to date suggests there is no historical evidence that Father Marquette committed atrocities against the Native American population.
By contrast, my Roman Catholic high school in Nashville, Tennessee was named for a priest who had open hatred for the union and for President Lincoln. His writings show that Father Abram Ryan was not only a Confederate sympathizer, he also was an advocate of slavery and quite adversarial to the cause of African American freedom.
Being a Midwestern born dude and coming from a family who not only were Wisconsinites but also fought for the United States in that war and who promoted equality in word and deed, I had a great deal of discomfort with the school's namesake, even when I attended the school. As more came out, many of my fellow grads advocate for the renaming of Father Ryan High School, consistent with the principles of which Pope Francis and you speak. I'm an advocate of renaming the school -- maybe back top its original name, Nashville Catholic High School! In that instance, I understand your point.
I don't see it with Marquette.
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Fluff, ole buddy, that is a blanket apology against any and all acts contrary to the Word, teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Teachings of Jesus.
To assume that Father Marquette committed the actions of which the Pope spoke requires evidence. Maybe it's out there, but everything I've seen to date suggests there is no historical evidence that Father Marquette committed atrocities against the Native American population.
I never said Father Marquette did any of that. I said the picture on the seal was a "symbol of that past."
By contrast, my Roman Catholic high school in Nashville, Tennessee was named for a priest who had open hatred for the union and for President Lincoln. His writings show that Father Abram Ryan was not only a Confederate sympathizer, he also was an advocate of slavery and quite adversarial to the cause of African American freedom.
Being a Midwestern born dude and coming from a family who not only were Wisconsinites but also fought for the United States in that war and who promoted equality in word and deed, I had a great deal of discomfort with the school's namesake, even when I attended the school. As more came out, many of my fellow grads advocate for the renaming of Father Ryan High School, consistent with the principles of which Pope Francis and you speak. I'm an advocate of renaming the school -- maybe back top its original name, Nashville Catholic High School! In that instance, I understand your point.
I don't see it with Marquette.
I don't want them to rename the University either.
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Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.
Many of us couldn’t care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.
By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?
Scares the hell out of you? If it's offensive to a group of people change it.
Imagine being a grown ass man in 2022 and giving a single damn about changing the SEAL of the university you attended DECADES ago.
I've gone over this before. You older guys have not been in school for a long time... and I'm getting there (18 years ago). Marquette is a 'Catholic' school almost in name only. I had to take TWO religion classes. One was 101 and the other was "Medical Ethics"... not exactly religious, but it counts. I'd guess the only reason that Marquette leans on it's religious affiliation is for recruiting purposes. Most of my time at Marquette almost two decades ago was entirely secular.
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At what point does this stop?
Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?
Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?
Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?
dgies9156 ... as a Marquette alum, I assume you at some point completed a Logic 101 class and were taught how to recognize a fallacious slippery slope argument when you see one.
How you got from "tweaking the seal" to "de-affiliating from the church and eliminating basketball" is quite the slide.
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Furthermore, unlike many other Catholic higher education institutions, Marquette University does not have any entity (like the Jesuits) who have reserved powers over the University. For instance, at many schools, the school must receive permission from the founding order for actions that Marquette can do on its own. (Take out debt to a certain limit, dispose of real property, elect trustees, etc.) It is a completely, independent corporation.
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It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.
(https://img1.picmix.com/output/stamp/normal/3/9/8/1/1081893_f4deb.gif)
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So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?
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So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?
If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it.
What's the big deal?
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So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?
Well it depends, how many of these people are nice guys who insult the hausers and how many of the objectors have never insulted anyone after saying "f*ck off"?
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If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it.
What's the big deal?
I agree with that broad statement.
But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.
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I agree with that broad statement.
But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.
Let's put it this way. If we have to have a discussion about whether or not enough people are offended, just replace the thing.
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I agree with that broad statement.
But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.
More than people directly impacted can be offended. I wouldn’t say I’m offended, but think MU could do a little better. Especially having now seen the original picture it’s based on.
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More than people directly impacted can be offended. I wouldn’t say I’m offended, but think MU could do a little better. Especially having now seen the original picture it’s based on.
I'd say I'm more embarrassed than offended, but that's just semantics.
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I agree with that broad statement.
But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.
Why are you limiting the universe of people who are offended to the current Native students at Marquettte?
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If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it.
What's the big deal?
You're such a PC lib cuck
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Why are you limiting the universe of people who are offended to the current Native students at Marquettte?
Because they're the only ones who are complaining about it.
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Because they're the only ones who are complaining about it.
But they may not be the only ones who are offended...or embarrassed.
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Let's put it this way. If we have to have a discussion about whether or not enough people are offended, just replace the thing.
Bingo.
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Scares the hell out of you? If it's offensive to a group of people change it.
Devils advocate, is this a blanket rule? No matter what the issue or how small?
My alma mater had an issue a few years ago. A sorority had a formal at an African American Heritage museum. An niche AA student group (<10 members) on campus raised a protest due to the sorority and my alma mater's predominant white demographic (though the event chair who organized it was herself AA and no members of the student group were in said sorority).
I'm not saying this "scares the hell out of me" or the like. And I'm not trying to say its some slippery slope, but I am genuinely curious the perception of "just change it" thinking whenever a group signals offense as a blanket sentiment.
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Some people don’t like the Catholic church. I feel MU should shut down ASAP. Demolish everything & plant a community garden full of chickpeas — but only after changing the offensive name “chickpeas”.
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It's obvious a balance. In my experience, there really isn't an objective number, but you know it when you see it.
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It's obvious a balance. In my experience, there really isn't an objective number, but you know it when you see it.
So in the case of the MU seal, I don't see it. Do you?
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So in the case of the MU seal, I don't see it. Do you?
Yes. It has been brought up multiple times and the latest move was based on a petition that collected 300+ signatures.
https://marquettewire.org/4034059/news/marquette-student-starts-petition-to-change-university-seal/
And, as I have been saying, it is such a minimal thing to do.
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Yes. It has been brought up multiple times and the latest move was based on a petition that collected 300+ signatures.
https://marquettewire.org/4034059/news/marquette-student-starts-petition-to-change-university-seal/
And, as I have been saying, it is such a minimal thing to do.
First, they came for the mascot, and I did nothing
Then, they came for the nickname, and I did nothing
Then they came for the seal, and I did nothing
...
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Anyone who doesn't understand that all white people are racist are living in a cave. Denying your racism only further proves how racist you are.
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Devils advocate, is this a blanket rule? No matter what the issue or how small?
My alma mater had an issue a few years ago. A sorority had a formal at an African American Heritage museum. An niche AA student group (<10 members) on campus raised a protest due to the sorority and my alma mater's predominant white demographic (though the event chair who organized it was herself AA and no members of the student group were in said sorority).
I'm not saying this "scares the hell out of me" or the like. And I'm not trying to say its some slippery slope, but I am genuinely curious the perception of "just change it" thinking whenever a group signals offense as a blanket sentiment.
Was the formal moved to another location? Was it always there? Did the event chair speak with the offended AA student group? Was her opinion swayed?
I get what you're saying, and I don't know where the true threshold is, but obviously the seal is offensive enough to be discussed every year or two... let's just change what is obvious.
Plus it's ugly anyway.
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It’s really interesting what we choose to get upset about, often times things that rightly or wrongly affect us in no way. The call to change the seal isn’t some eroding of culture, religion, our university, my whiteness, something the belongs to me, it is the increase of visibility, understanding, and respect of someone/something else. It’s not a pie, I am not losing anything, it’s like baking another pie to share. More respect means more respect.
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This is the Twitter Universe. A few vocal people search for something to be offended by and raise a ruckus that implies they are a large number. Maybe somebody can rustle up a dude who is offended by the stereotypical Jesuit garb as well to add to the fray
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This is the Twitter Universe. A few vocal people search for something to be offended by and raise a ruckus that implies they are a large number. Maybe somebody can rustle up a dude who is offended by the stereotypical Jesuit garb as well to add to the fray
Worse yet, they can rouse up the kind of people who get offended (or scared like hell) by a change to a university seal.
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Old people hate change. I look at that seal and think it looks like tourist trap kitsch.
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This is the Twitter Universe. A few vocal people search for something to be offended by and raise a ruckus that implies they are a large number. Maybe somebody can rustle up a dude who is offended by the stereotypical Jesuit garb as well to add to the fray
Yeah this doesn’t really happen. But it makes people feel good.
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(https://storage.googleapis.com/clio-images/51600.133524.jpg)
Put this bad boy on the seal and be done with it
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That's a helluva 5 head he's got.
But yeah, I'd just put some symbols and phrases. Leave people out of it entirely.
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Old people hate change.
You haven’t met my 18 month old granddaughter who is transitioning from bottle to sippy cup.
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You haven’t met my 18 month old granddaughter who is transitioning from bottle to sippy cup.
The similarities between infants/toddlers and geriatrics are remarkable
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(https://storage.googleapis.com/clio-images/51600.133524.jpg)
Put this bad boy on the seal and be done with it
Why hipster Batman?
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Worse yet, they can rouse up the kind of people who get offended (or scared like hell) by a change to a university seal.
Pakuni changing the seal makes no difference to me. I just grow weary listening to the chronically aggrieved. Back in the day these persons would have been told "to get a life" Now anyone can spout any kind of insult when years gone by they would have merited a knuckle sandwich. We have become a cruder society and not unlike a dog chasing his tail while giving credence to every perceived slight/
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Pakuni changing the seal makes no difference to me. I just grow weary listening to the chronically aggrieved. Back in the day these persons would have been told "to get a life" Now anyone can spout any kind of insult when years gone by they would have merited a knuckle sandwich. We have become a cruder society and not unlike a dog chasing his tail while giving credence to every perceived slight/
Take a hike, snowflake!
But for real, if you're putting your emotional or mental energy into this and you're offended on behalf of a seal... maybe just let it go.
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Pakuni changing the seal makes no difference to me. I just grow weary listening to the chronically aggrieved. Back in the day these persons would have been told "to get a life" Now anyone can spout any kind of insult when years gone by they would have merited a knuckle sandwich.
Is that...a good thing??? It seems to me that telling people to "get a life" or "get over it" has probably caused more problems than it has solved. If you don't properly listen to people and attempt to address their concerns, they are likely to be louder and more aggressive about it the next time.
We have become a cruder society and not unlike a dog chasing his tail while giving credence to every perceived slight/
So we had a less cruel society when we told people their feelings didn't matter?
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Pakuni changing the seal makes no difference to me. I just grow weary listening to the chronically aggrieved. Back in the day these persons would have been told "to get a life" Now anyone can spout any kind of insult when years gone by they would have merited a knuckle sandwich. We have become a cruder society and not unlike a dog chasing his tail while giving credence to every perceived slight/
You must have HATED the former President then, I imagine.
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Was the formal moved to another location? Was it always there? Did the event chair speak with the offended AA student group? Was her opinion swayed?
I get what you're saying, and I don't know where the true threshold is, but obviously the seal is offensive enough to be discussed every year or two... let's just change what is obvious.
Plus it's ugly anyway.
Just to tie up the loose end.
It was not moved. It wasn't always there, a lot of the formals moved location year to year based on availability, cost, dates, etc... The event chair was going to meet with the group, but when it was clear that the formal wasn't going to be moved, they declined and claimed it wouldn't be a good faith meeting, so who knows.
The seal is whatever. I don't think its current or beloved enough to be truly defended in good faith.
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Pakuni changing the seal makes no difference to me. I just grow weary listening to the chronically aggrieved. Back in the day these persons would have been told "to get a life" Now anyone can spout any kind of insult when years gone by they would have merited a knuckle sandwich. We have become a cruder society and not unlike a dog chasing his tail while giving credence to every perceived slight/
We have become a cruder society, says the guy who longs for the day when complaints of harmful racial stereotypes were met with a well-deserved knuckle sandwich.
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So we had a less cruel society when we told people their feelings didn't matter?
[/quote]
So who are the snowflakes ? The world has always been a cruel one and telling someone their concern is wacky is hardly that. My concern is that some are running around looking for something to affront them.
The seal controversy is a symptom. While not a very attractive emblem ,it seems the Pere M. portion is a Rorschach test for some.
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So we had a less cruel society when we told people their feelings didn't matter?
So who are the snowflakes ? The world has always been a cruel one and telling someone their concern is wacky is hardly that. My concern is that some are running around looking for something to affront them.
The seal controversy is a symptom. While not a very attractive emblem ,it seems the Pere M. portion is a Rorschach test for some.
Have you considered... That your concern is the wacky one?
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So who are the snowflakes ? The world has always been a cruel one and telling someone their concern is wacky is hardly that. My concern is that some are running around looking for something to affront them.
The seal controversy is a symptom. While not a very attractive emblem ,it seems the Pere M. portion is a Rorschach test for some.
You fail to understand that while their concern may be "wacky" to you, it is sincere to them.
So if its "not a very attractive emblem," what's the harm in changing it to address someone's concerns even if you think they are "wacky?"
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here's a proposal: If you support changing the seal because it's "offensive" then you can no longer refer to our teams at "Warriors" since that was deemed offensive as well. Deal?
Since I do not refer to the teams by the former name this will not be an issue. I think the idea that the seal is offensive is laughable but we have to acquiesce to their demands.
I certainly hope St. Ignatius of Loyola didn't do anything bad, otherwise, we'll be getting rid of the rest of the seal too.
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here's a proposal: If you support changing the seal because it's "offensive" then you can no longer refer to our teams at "Warriors" since that was deemed offensive as well. Deal?
No.
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here's a proposal: If you support changing the seal because it's "offensive" then you can no longer refer to our teams at "Warriors" since that was deemed offensive as well. Deal?
Since I do not refer to the teams by the former name this will not be an issue. I think the idea that the seal is offensive is laughable but we have to acquiesce to their demands.
I certainly hope St. Ignatius of Loyola didn't do anything bad, otherwise, we'll be getting rid of the rest of the seal too.
Here's a proposal ...you can disagree with someone's point of view about what may or may not be offensive without being disrespectful or dismissive of their beliefs.
Billy Hoyle and WellsStreetWnderer don't get to decide what others can and cannot find offensive.
Not everything is about you.
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Why don't we wait to see how the team does this season?
Might want to put Shaka on the seal!
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So we had a less cruel society when we told people their feelings didn't matter?
So who are the snowflakes ? The world has always been a cruel one and telling someone their concern is wacky is hardly that. My concern is that some are running around looking for something to affront them.
The seal controversy is a symptom. While not a very attractive emblem ,it seems the Pere M. portion is a Rorschach test for some.
Your posts read like you are a someone running around looking for something to affront yourself.
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We have become a cruder society, says the guy who longs for the day when complaints of harmful racial stereotypes were met with a well-deserved knuckle sandwich.
Our president feels that way about Corn Pop.
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No.
so the seal is offensive but the name "Warriors" and the history of it (especially Willy Wampum) is not and we should dismiss the tribes in South Dakota that asked for the name to be changed and the opinion of the guy who played the First Warrior who supported the change. Got it.
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so the seal is offensive but the name "Warriors" and the history of it (especially Willy Wampum) is not and we should dismiss the tribes in South Dakota that asked for the name to be changed and the opinion of the guy who played the First Warrior who supported the change. Got it.
No. I treated your "proposal" with the sincerity it deserved when you added this nonsense.
Since I do not refer to the teams by the former name this will not be an issue. I think the idea that the seal is offensive is laughable but we have to acquiesce to their demands.
I certainly hope St. Ignatius of Loyola didn't do anything bad, otherwise, we'll be getting rid of the rest of the seal too.
You aren't being a serious person.
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Our president feels that way about Corn Pop.
He does? Weird, since Corn Pop has been dead for 5+ years.
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He does? Weird, since Corn Pop has been dead for 5+ years.
🤡
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https://apnews.com/article/sports-nebraska-hate-groups-lincoln-university-of-nebraska-2e6b2cb14f7939a449b6aba3ed6c68d2
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https://apnews.com/article/sports-nebraska-hate-groups-lincoln-university-of-nebraska-2e6b2cb14f7939a449b6aba3ed6c68d2
As long as we continually give fringe groups the ability to redefine and distort symbols and gestures, this will never stop.
In the end, everything will be changed into an offensive meaning.
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As long as we continually give fringe groups the ability to redefine and distort symbols and gestures, this will never stop.
In the end, everything will be changed into an offensive meaning.
I mean it was the white supremacists who changed its meaning right?
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I mean it was the white supremacists who changed its meaning right?
He didn’t say what fringe group it was. The statement was apolitical. If ISIS suddenly started using thumbs up as their rallying cry, would we suddenly shun it as offensive?
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He didn’t say what fringe group it was. The statement was apolitical. If ISIS suddenly started using thumbs up as their rallying cry, would we suddenly shun it as offensive?
I mean, we might right? I guess it just depends on how prevalent it gets. The swastica was harmless 100+ years ago and now it means something else entirely.
Symbols change. Words change. We should change with it instead of complaining about the change.
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I mean, we might right? I guess it just depends on how prevalent it gets. The swastica was harmless 100+ years ago and now it means something else entirely.
Symbols change. Words change. We should change with it instead of complaining about the change.
I think the Swastika was different though. It was the equivalent of the hammer and sickle on flags and apparel and EVERYTHING. This symbol is just in a bunch of pictures online. I bet you ask 10 people on the street and a third, if that, know what the alternative meaning of the ok symbol is.
Changing and being deeply offended by it gives it way more agency than just ignoring it. Its a hand symbol used by a bunch of fringe group morons.
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I think the Swastika was different though. It was the equivalent of the hammer and sickle on flags and apparel and EVERYTHING. This symbol is just in a bunch of pictures online. I bet you ask 10 people on the street and a third, if that, know what the alternative meaning of the ok symbol is.
Changing and being deeply offended by it gives it way more agency than just ignoring it. Its a hand symbol used by a bunch of fringe group morons.
I just don’t agree with that. Changing the hand symbol used by a cartoon mascot is just a very inconsequential thing to do. Might as well do it.
Not everything is a culture war.
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I just don’t agree with that. Changing the hand symbol used by a cartoon mascot is just a very inconsequential thing to do. Might as well do it.
Not everything is a culture war.
It’s not a culture war but it symbolizes that that hand symbol is now verboten.
This makes the seal look like a no brainer in comparison
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I mean, we might right? I guess it just depends on how prevalent it gets. The swastica was harmless 100+ years ago and now it means something else entirely.
Symbols change. Words change. We should change with it instead of complaining about the change.
A solution looking for a problem.
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I mean it was the white supremacists who changed its meaning right?
The white supremacists did not change its meaning, the woke left did. The woke wanted to show their moral superiority over society and they changed its meaning, rationalizing this move because a few insignificant fringe people started to use it with a different meaning.
I would argue it is more popular as a symbol of a made three-point shot than white power.
When the O.K. Sign Is No Longer O.K.
Here is how a hand gesture long seen as innocuous was appropriated to signify “white power.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/us/ok-sign-white-power.html
It started in early 2017 as a hoax. Some users of 4chan, an anonymous and unrestricted online message board, began what they called “Operation O-KKK,” to see if they could trick the wider world — and especially liberals and the mainstream media — into believing that the innocuous gesture was actually a clandestine symbol of white power.
“We must flood twitter and other social media websites with spam, claiming that the OK hand signal is a symbol of white supremacy,” one of the users posted, going on to suggest that everyone involved create fake social media accounts “with basic white girl names” to propagate the notion as widely as possible.
The 4chan hoax succeeded all too well, and ceased being a hoax: Neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen and other white nationalists began using the gesture in public to signal their presence and to spot potential sympathizers and recruits. For them, the letters formed by the hand were not O and K, but W and P, for “white power.”
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What also makes this work is Fluffy's attitude that everything he personally does not care about is inconsequential, so why not? As long as everyone is this self-centered, and cannot take the time to understand what they are agreeing with, then everything will eventually be deemed offensive.
And I'll take this back to page 1 ... when a fringe group decides that Father Marquette was a racist, you will dutifully accept it and be completely fine with changing the name of the university? If Columbus is a racist and it's ok to remove symbols of him, it is only a matter of time before Marquette gets the same treatment.
Or, are we hypocrites because this name matters to us?
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I mean, we might right? I guess it just depends on how prevalent it gets. The swastica was harmless 100+ years ago and now it means something else entirely.
Symbols change. Words change. We should change with it instead of complaining about the change.
The swastica traces back 7000 years.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/history-of-the-swastika
But in this case, it was not a few fringe people that appropriated it. It did not start as a joke. It was a symbol of a global movement that redefined humanity (for the worse). So, in this case, it does take on a different meaning.
Drawing a moral equivalency between the swastica and a 4chan joke about a white power symbol is not remotely the same thing, the worst kind of whataboutism.
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Redefining the "ok" symbol as white power really gained momentum when the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) proclaimed it a symbol of hate.
If this is good enough for you to ban it, then let's not stop at this symbol. Let's ban all the ADL symbols of hate. They have hundreds of them. You're not allowed to pick and close ... because you would be tolerating some racist/hate symbols. All or none.
Some examples.
https://www.adl.org/hate-symbols
100%
100% is shorthand for "100% white" among white supremacists. It is also common to create alphanumeric variations to proclaim solidarity with a particular white supremacist group or gang, such as "112%" for "100% Aryan Brotherhood."
So the next time a coach says a player gave a 100% effort, he is a racist. Because he said he gave a 100% white effort.
12
The number 12 is a numeric symbol for Aryan Brotherhood groups (as are the numbers 1 and 2 separately), especially the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. Substituting letters for numbers, 12 equals AB, i.e., Aryan Brotherhood.
13
The number 13 is a numeric symbol for the Aryan Circle, the large Texas-based racist prison gang. Substituting letters for numbers, 1 and 3 equals A and C, i.e., AC or Aryan Circle.
14
14 is numerical shorthand for the white supremacist slogan known as the "14 Words": "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."
Should MUBB ban the use of all these numbers?
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Wow ... somebody woke up Smuggles!
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Redefining the "ok" symbol as white power really gained momentum when the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) proclaimed it a symbol of hate.
If this is good enough for you to ban it, then let's not stop at this symbol. Let's ban all the ADL symbols of hate. They have hundreds of them. You're not allowed to pick and close ... because you would be tolerating some racist/hate symbols. All or none.
Some examples.
https://www.adl.org/hate-symbols
100%
100% is shorthand for "100% white" among white supremacists. It is also common to create alphanumeric variations to proclaim solidarity with a particular white supremacist group or gang, such as "112%" for "100% Aryan Brotherhood."
So the next time a coach says a player gave a 100% effort, he is a racist. Because he said he gave a 100% white effort.
12
The number 12 is a numeric symbol for Aryan Brotherhood groups (as are the numbers 1 and 2 separately), especially the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. Substituting letters for numbers, 12 equals AB, i.e., Aryan Brotherhood.
13
The number 13 is a numeric symbol for the Aryan Circle, the large Texas-based racist prison gang. Substituting letters for numbers, 1 and 3 equals A and C, i.e., AC or Aryan Circle.
14
14 is numerical shorthand for the white supremacist slogan known as the "14 Words": "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."
Should MUBB ban the use of all these numbers?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
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Redefining the "ok" symbol as white power really gained momentum when the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) proclaimed it a symbol of hate.
If this is good enough for you to ban it, then let's not stop at this symbol. Let's ban all the ADL symbols of hate. They have hundreds of them. You're not allowed to pick and close ... because you would be tolerating some racist/hate symbols. All or none.
[EDITORS NOTE... lots of copying and pasting removed]
Wow you are really playing the hits here.
Re first bolded - they didn't "proclaim" anything a "symbol of hate." You are misusing the language to serve your point. They created a database of symbols that jackasses use in a hateful way. They aren't saying that everyone who uses it is one of those jackasses.
The second bold is a complete straw man you made up. No one "banned" anything. A major organization thought that enough people appropriated a symbol for a bad reason, the symbol that meant relatively little to the organization, so they changed what they used. You can still run around using the ok symbol all you want. No one from the University of Nebraska is going to throw you in jail.
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The next thing you know they'll ban smiling because the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys smile a lot while they're plotting their violent coup attempts!
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The swastica traces back 7000 years.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/history-of-the-swastika
But in this case, it was not a few fringe people that appropriated it. It did not start as a joke. It was a symbol of a global movement that redefined humanity (for the worse). So, in this case, it does take on a different meaning.
Drawing a moral equivalency between the swastica and a 4chan joke about a white power symbol is not remotely the same thing, the worst kind of whataboutism.
Actually it was an analogy...not whataboutism.
And typing hundreds of words (and bolding a few of them) because a university you are not a fan of slightly changed their athletics logo to make sure that people don't think Herbie is about white power is....a choice.
Again, this isn't a big deal. You are trying so hard to make it one.
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Redefining the "ok" symbol as white power really gained momentum when the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) proclaimed it a symbol of hate.
If this is good enough for you to ban it, then let's not stop at this symbol. Let's ban all the ADL symbols of hate. They have hundreds of them. You're not allowed to pick and close ... because you would be tolerating some racist/hate symbols. All or none.
Some examples.
https://www.adl.org/hate-symbols
100%
100% is shorthand for "100% white" among white supremacists. It is also common to create alphanumeric variations to proclaim solidarity with a particular white supremacist group or gang, such as "112%" for "100% Aryan Brotherhood."
So the next time a coach says a player gave a 100% effort, he is a racist. Because he said he gave a 100% white effort.
12
The number 12 is a numeric symbol for Aryan Brotherhood groups (as are the numbers 1 and 2 separately), especially the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. Substituting letters for numbers, 12 equals AB, i.e., Aryan Brotherhood.
13
The number 13 is a numeric symbol for the Aryan Circle, the large Texas-based racist prison gang. Substituting letters for numbers, 1 and 3 equals A and C, i.e., AC or Aryan Circle.
14
14 is numerical shorthand for the white supremacist slogan known as the "14 Words": "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."
Should MUBB ban the use of all these numbers?
Nobody is "banning" anything. Nebraska didn't "ban" the Herbie logo. They changed it - which is their right to do.
Again, slippery slope and shifting goalposts.
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Wouldn’t they not want their mascot referencing Oklahoma anyways.
Unless the “OK” sign is part of the fabric of the university, I’m not sure the big deal.
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The white supremacists did not change its meaning, the woke left did. The woke wanted to show their moral superiority over society and they changed its meaning, rationalizing this move because a few insignificant fringe people started to use it with a different meaning.
Not even sure how you get through this cognitive dissonance. White nationalists--Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, III Percenters, etc.-- started using it as a white power symbol...but it was "the woke left" that changed the meaning?
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Not even sure how you get through this cognitive dissonance. White nationalists--Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, III Percenters, etc.-- started using it as a white power symbol...but it was "the woke left" that changed the meaning?
The woke left took a small insignificant minority and decided that they matter and therefore accepted their definition of the ok symbol and demanded everyone adhere to this definition and act on it.
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The woke left took a small insignificant minority and decided that they matter and therefore accepted their definition of the ok symbol and demanded everyone adhere to this definition and act on it.
You should probably drone on about it endlessly.
It offended enough people that it was time for a change.
Find the next outrage du jour.
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The woke left took a small insignificant minority and decided that they matter and therefore accepted their definition of the ok symbol and demanded everyone adhere to this definition and act on it.
https://nypost.com/2022/01/30/nebraska-alters-herbie-husker-cartoon-over-white-supremacy/
“The concern about the hand gesture was brought to our attention by our apparel provider and others, and we decided to move forward with a revised Herbie Husker logo,” Nebraska Athletics said in a statement to the Associated Press. “The process of changing the logo began in 2020, and we updated our brand guidelines in July of 2021. The revised logo is now the only Herbie Husker mark available to licensees.”
...
"The Anti-Defamation League had listed the OK gesture in its hate symbol list.
“A common hand gesture that a 4chan trolling campaign claimed in 2017 had been appropriated as a symbol meaning ‘white power.’ Used by many on the right — not just extremists — for the purpose of trolling liberals, the symbol eventually came to be used by actual white supremacists as well. Caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol’s use,” the ADL says."
Yes....the "woke liberals" in change of licensing companies and the Anti-Defamation League. ::)
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The woke left took a small insignificant minority and decided that they matter and therefore accepted their definition of the ok symbol and demanded everyone adhere to this definition and act on it.
ok boomer
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The next thing you know they'll ban smiling because the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys smile a lot while they're plotting their violent coup attempts!
"coup attempt." Ok....
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"coup attempt." Ok....
coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
Which is exactly what the attackers attempted, after being incited into action by their ruler and his sycophants. All based on a lie they continue telling to this day.
Thankfully, they didn't succeed ... even if they did succeed in injuring about 150 police officers. But interesting ... the "law and order" people don't seem to care about those cops.
Hang Mike Pence!
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The woke left took a small insignificant minority and decided that they matter and therefore accepted their definition of the ok symbol and demanded everyone adhere to this definition and act on it.
So it's not the people who took the symbol and said it represented white power, it's the fault of the people that called them out on it? Got ya.
Is your small minority still insignificant when the President of the United States calls them "good people"? When U.S. Representatives openly align with white nationalists and speak at their events? When the President tells them to "stand by"? When the ex-President endorses a candidate that literally said, "Hitler was right?
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I guess Heisenberg made parole again
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https://nypost.com/2022/01/30/nebraska-alters-herbie-husker-cartoon-over-white-supremacy/
“The concern about the hand gesture was brought to our attention by our apparel provider and others, and we decided to move forward with a revised Herbie Husker logo,” Nebraska Athletics said in a statement to the Associated Press. “The process of changing the logo began in 2020, and we updated our brand guidelines in July of 2021. The revised logo is now the only Herbie Husker mark available to licensees.”
...
"The Anti-Defamation League had listed the OK gesture in its hate symbol list.
“A common hand gesture that a 4chan trolling campaign claimed in 2017 had been appropriated as a symbol meaning ‘white power.’ Used by many on the right — not just extremists — for the purpose of trolling liberals, the symbol eventually came to be used by actual white supremacists as well. Caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol’s use,” the ADL says."
Yes....the "woke liberals" in change of licensing companies and the Anti-Defamation League. ::)
damn white supremacist right here.
(https://thefourthestate.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/obama_1822024c.jpg)
The pathetic part of this whole thing is that the wokesters are letting the right's trolling win and change the way normal people act. Are we supposed to digitally alter photos of Travis throwing up that symbol after three pointers now that the left wing ALD has declared if a "hate symbol." The same ADL that changed the definition of racism?
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damn white supremacist right here.
(https://thefourthestate.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/obama_1822024c.jpg)
The pathetic part of this whole thing is that the wokesters are letting the right's trolling win and change the way normal people act. Are we supposed to digitally alter photos of Travis throwing up that symbol after three pointers now that the left wing ALD has declared if a "hate symbol." The same ADL that changed the definition of racism?
No. And it wasn't a Travis thing anyway - it was a Vander Blue era thing.
Again, this is just altering an athletic logo to avoid controversy. I have no idea why this is a big deal in anyone's eyes. If you want to continue to use the hand gesture, go ahead. No one is banning it. What Nebraska is doing with Herbie doesn't infringe upon you in any manner.
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I just don’t agree with that. Changing the hand symbol used by a cartoon mascot is just a very inconsequential thing to do. Might as well do it.
Not everything is a culture war.
If it's so meaningless and inconsequential, then why do it?
Same story over and over and over. The Left does something like this (changing symbol, mascot, etc), the Right reacts, and the Left says "why are you reacting, it was meaningless."
Fact of the matter is the Left always fires the first shot in a culture battle and expects the Right to just go along.
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Fact of the matter is the Left always fires the first shot in a culture battle and expects the Right to just go along.
Which of course is the exact opposite of reality in this case but whatever.
Why do you care anyway? It’s not your alma mater or has any impact on your life.
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coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
Which is exactly what the attackers attempted, after being incited into action by their ruler and his sycophants. All based on a lie they continue telling to this day.
Thankfully, they didn't succeed ... even if they did succeed in injuring about 150 police officers. But interesting ... the "law and order" people don't seem to care about those cops.
Hang Mike Pence!
this is absolutely delusional-you're better than this...i thought. there is so much going on during that jan 6 thingy but the powers will not allow anyone to see over 10,000 hours of video. put ray epps on the stand under oath
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this is absolutely delusional-you're better than this...i thought. there is so much going on during that jan 6 thingy but the powers will not allow anyone to see over 10,000 hours of video. put ray epps on the stand under oath
I heard ANTIFA was behind it anyway.
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I agree. Get Epps under oath.
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damn white supremacist right here.
(https://thefourthestate.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/obama_1822024c.jpg)
The pathetic part of this whole thing is that the wokesters are letting the right's trolling win and change the way normal people act. Are we supposed to digitally alter photos of Travis throwing up that symbol after three pointers now that the left wing ALD has declared if a "hate symbol." The same ADL that changed the definition of racism?
C'mon, you're smarter than this...aren't you?
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that jan 6 thingy
(https://media.tenor.com/images/03fcf7e7bda33d06b4831ebec1cec7dc/tenor.gif)
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this is absolutely delusional-you're better than this...i thought. there is so much going on during that jan 6 thingy but the powers will not allow anyone to see over 10,000 hours of video. put ray epps on the stand under oath
And your hero is doing it again ... inciting his easily conned, white supremacist sheeple into violent acts on his behalf if and when he is ever convicted of the many crimes he has committed:
“If these radical, vicious, racist prosecutors do anything wrong or illegal, I hope we are going to have in this country the biggest protest we have ever had in Washington, D.C., in New York, in Atlanta and elsewhere because our country and our elections are corrupt."
Get out the nooses, kids, it's time to Hang Mike Pence again!
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I heard ANTIFA was behind it anyway.
That's just what the FBI wants you to think.
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That's just what the FBI wants you to think.
Don’t look at me, that’s what I heard on Tucker
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C'mon, you're smarter than this...aren't you?
it's to show that we can't allow trolls to co-opt something we've done for who knows how long and say "let them have it, let's call it a hate symbol and castigate all who use it." You know, like that Mexican driver in San Diego who was fired for cracking his knuckles.
https://laprensa-sandiego.org/caffertyvsdge/
but there is no evidence he had any racist intentions or even knew what the hand sign meant at the time.
Emmanuel Cafferty, 48, is now out of a job, prospective employers steer away from hiring him, and he’s about to lose his apartment over one snapshot in time that led people to presume he is a white supremacist.
It seems like unfortunate situation, especially for a Latino.
All it takes is one person to be triggered. As Saint Kendi said, when it comes to racist actions, there is no intent needed, just a person interpreting something as racist (under the ADL's new definition, of course).
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it's to show that we can't allow trolls to co-opt something we've done for who knows how long and say "let them have it, let's call it a hate symbol and castigate all who use it." You know, like that Mexican driver in San Diego who was fired for cracking his knuckles.
https://laprensa-sandiego.org/caffertyvsdge/
but there is no evidence he had any racist intentions or even knew what the hand sign meant at the time.
Emmanuel Cafferty, 48, is now out of a job, prospective employers steer away from hiring him, and he’s about to lose his apartment over one snapshot in time that led people to presume he is a white supremacist.
It seems like unfortunate situation, especially for a Latino.
All it takes is one person to be triggered. As Saint Kendi said, when it comes to racist actions, there is no intent needed, just a person interpreting something as racist (under the ADL's new definition, of course).
That’s dumb. He should have never lost his job over that.
But it shows why Nebraska wants to steer clear of the issue. It’s not rocket science.
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it's to show that we can't allow trolls to co-opt something we've done for who knows how long and say "let them have it, let's call it a hate symbol and castigate all who use it." You know, like that Mexican driver in San Diego who was fired for cracking his knuckles.
https://laprensa-sandiego.org/caffertyvsdge/
but there is no evidence he had any racist intentions or even knew what the hand sign meant at the time.
Emmanuel Cafferty, 48, is now out of a job, prospective employers steer away from hiring him, and he’s about to lose his apartment over one snapshot in time that led people to presume he is a white supremacist.
It seems like unfortunate situation, especially for a Latino.
All it takes is one person to be triggered. As Saint Kendi said, when it comes to racist actions, there is no intent needed, just a person interpreting something as racist (under the ADL's new definition, of course).
Now you are going to argue from an anecdote? Yes, if he was innocently making the gesture a terrible mistake was made. If he was innocent.
But a single anecdote vs. the white nationalists proudly using the gesture as a white power signal? Thousands of apples vs. one orange. But you knew that. Just as you knew NBA players making a three-point gesture was a disingenuous argument.
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it's to show that we can't allow trolls to co-opt something we've done for who knows how long and say "let them have it, let's call it a hate symbol and castigate all who use it." You know, like that Mexican driver in San Diego who was fired for cracking his knuckles.
https://laprensa-sandiego.org/caffertyvsdge/
but there is no evidence he had any racist intentions or even knew what the hand sign meant at the time.
Emmanuel Cafferty, 48, is now out of a job, prospective employers steer away from hiring him, and he’s about to lose his apartment over one snapshot in time that led people to presume he is a white supremacist.
It seems like unfortunate situation, especially for a Latino.
All it takes is one person to be triggered. As Saint Kendi said, when it comes to racist actions, there is no intent needed, just a person interpreting something as racist (under the ADL's new definition, of course).
Sounds like Mr. Cafferty may have gotten screwed.
And his story has nothing to do with a university making a minor tweak to its mascot.
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Now you are going to argue from an anecdote? Yes, if he was innocently making the gesture a terrible mistake was made. If he was innocent.
But a single anecdote vs. the white nationalists proudly using the gesture as a white power signal? Thousands of apples vs. one orange. But you knew that. Just as you knew NBA players making a three-point gesture was a disingenuous argument.
no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
Instead of saying "this is BS, don't let them win" it "let them have it and anyone who makes that symbol is an obvious racist and must be dealt with accordingly" When virtue signaling leads to the firing of innocent people, or the firing/disciplining of people for things they wrote on social media when they were kids, or what happened to the Jeopardy guy, it's gone to far and makes progressives look foolish and out of touch (see: last Friday's Real Time with Bill Maher).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jeopardy-slammed-winner-alleged-white-power-hand-gesture-4175660/
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no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
Anecdote is not the singular for data.
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no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
Instead of saying "this is BS, don't let them win" it "let them have it and anyone who makes that symbol is an obvious racist and must be dealt with accordingly" When virtue signaling leads to the firing of innocent people, or the firing/disciplining of people for things they wrote on social media when they were kids, or what happened to the Jeopardy guy, it's gone to far and makes progressives look foolish and out of touch (see: last Friday's Real Time with Bill Maher).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jeopardy-slammed-winner-alleged-white-power-hand-gesture-4175660/
Wait one of these peoples daughter wrote the posts and was high level management. Sorry but companies have been canceled for less. Where do you think a 14yr old learned it?
The other two are awful and I'd love to be an attorney near them for a wrongful termination lawsuit.
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no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
Instead of saying "this is BS, don't let them win" it "let them have it and anyone who makes that symbol is an obvious racist and must be dealt with accordingly" When virtue signaling leads to the firing of innocent people, or the firing/disciplining of people for things they wrote on social media when they were kids, or what happened to the Jeopardy guy, it's gone to far and makes progressives look foolish and out of touch (see: last Friday's Real Time with Bill Maher).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jeopardy-slammed-winner-alleged-white-power-hand-gesture-4175660/
You seem to be a lot more mad at "virtue signaling woke liberals" for ruining a meaningless hand gesture than you are at white supremecists. Which is something.
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“Woke” 😂
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You seem to be a lot more mad at "virtue signaling woke liberals" for ruining a meaningless hand gesture than you are at white supremecists. Which is something.
Whats there to be "mad" at white supremacists about in this case? That they adopted a troll as their own? Of all the awful sh** they've been involved with recently, this barely merits mention. Yet, while its died down, it seemed monthly there was a story of someone of note making the gesture and people getting bothered by it.
My aunt, who was a middle school teacher, always said she was never annoyed by the class clown acting out. It was an idiot immature kid (who could be dealt with otherwise). She got annoyed with the other "normal" kids who fed into it and gave the clown agency. If people didn't get in a huff about the signal and give it undue attention, the Proud Boys would have moved on. (shrug)
(FWIW I used to have the black and yellow polo the PBs co-opted. I hope an adventurous member found and made use of it at Goodwill :o)
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Whats there to be "mad" at white supremacists about in this case? That they adopted a troll as their own? Of all the awful sh** they've been involved with recently, this barely merits mention. Yet, while its died down, it seemed monthly there was a story of someone of note making the gesture and people getting bothered by it.
My aunt, who was a middle school teacher, always said she was never annoyed by the class clown acting out. It was an idiot immature kid (who could be dealt with otherwise). She got annoyed with the other "normal" kids who fed into it and gave the clown agency. If people didn't get in a huff about the signal and give it undue attention, the Proud Boys would have moved on. (shrug)
(FWIW I used to have the black and yellow polo the PBs co-opted. I hope an adventurous member found and made use of it at Goodwill :o)
But people do get in a huff about it. Which is why Nebraska changed their logo. People get in a huff about all sorts of things, no matter the political spectrum.
I just think it’s weird that people are saying “it’s the woke liberals that are the problem” instead of saying “too bad white supremecists are making us change the logo.”
IMO Billy, Heisey and NLW are vilifying the wrong people. But that’s what the hyper-partisan do when fighting the culture war.
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But people do get in a huff about it. Which is why Nebraska changed their logo. People get in a huff about all sorts of things, no matter the political spectrum.
I just think it’s weird that people are saying “it’s the woke liberals that are the problem” instead of saying “too bad white supremecists are making us change the logo.”
IMO Billy, Heisey and NLW are vilifying the wrong people. But that’s what the hyper-partisan do when fighting the culture war.
Fair enough. I guess I wish there wasn't so much reactionary action and thought to the lunatic fringes. Be it people who spell it "womyn" or the insane conservative religious types or "capitalism is just cover for murder" or "all taxation is theft". I think both sides of this particular argument are ridiculous. One group is just repugnant and the other is obnoxious but masquerading as "well intentioned"
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no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
If by "rushed to demonize something" you mean called out white supremacists doing white supremacist things, OK then.
Instead of saying "this is BS, don't let them win" it "let them have it and anyone who makes that symbol is an obvious racist and must be dealt with accordingly" When virtue signaling leads to the firing of innocent people, or the firing/disciplining of people for things they wrote on social media when they were kids, or what happened to the Jeopardy guy, it's gone to far and makes progressives look foolish and out of touch (see: last Friday's Real Time with Bill Maher).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jeopardy-slammed-winner-alleged-white-power-hand-gesture-4175660/
You continue to argue from anecdote, much like a former poster here. In addition to being the world's greatest dad, he appears to have been quite the teacher as well.
But more importantly, all your anger is focused not on the racist white supremacists, but on the people calling out the racist white supremacists. Quite curious. Why is that? Why isn't your umbrage directed at the people doing the white supremacist thing?
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If by "rushed to demonize something" you mean called out white supremacists doing white supremacist things, OK then.
"white surpremecist things" is making a hand motion? When I think of "white supremecy things" I think of hate crimes or protesting minority causes or campaigning to take back America to its supposed white roots....not a random hand motion that took on meaning overnight. We're not talking about the Heil Hitler motion. Nobody is arguing in favor of white surpremecists. Its that they suddenly been given such agency that something they picked up, originally created as a troll, is now deemed abominable by mere loose association.
It just feels like hitting the button of "immediately broad brush cause F white supremacy" instead of actually thinking about it. Or better yet ignoring it. I'm sure Westboro Baptist Church has a bunch of hand signals or sayings they'd cling to, but everyone just rolls their eyes at their BS and goes on with their lives.
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But more importantly, all your anger is focused not on the racist white supremacists, but on the people calling out the racist white supremacists. Quite curious. Why is that? Why isn't your umbrage directed at the people doing the white supremacist thing?
True story ... there was a time when a bunch of Black athletes protested police brutality, and instead of being upset about police brutality, lots of people got mad at the athletes for speaking out.
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I don’t think it’s fair that Hitler got to ruin the full arm and finger extended point.
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I don’t think it’s fair that Hitler got to ruin the full arm and finger extended point.
Everybody knows he was good at the beginning, but he just went too far.
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I don’t think it’s fair that Hitler got to ruin the full arm and finger extended point.
If people would have just ignored him and not made such a big deal about it, he'd have just gone away.
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If people would have just ignored him and not made such a big deal about it, he'd have just gone away.
Whose shifting goalposts now? Nobody is saying white supremacists would have “gone away” but the stupid hand gesture certainly would have.
But we get it, you clearly think the offense is merited and all actions pertaining to it are a-ok so everyone who thinks differently is just a slippery slope fallacy fanatic worthy of mockery 👌🏼. WHOOPS!…🤙🏼🤙🏼
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Whose shifting goalposts now? Nobody is saying white supremacists would have “gone away” but the stupid hand gesture certainly would have.
But we get it, you clearly think the offense is merited and all actions pertaining to it are a-ok so everyone who thinks differently is just a slippery slope fallacy fanatic worthy of mockery 👌🏼. WHOOPS!…🤙🏼🤙🏼
(https://c.tenor.com/KEy2voJRdaIAAAAC/jokes-joke.gif])
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Hitler ... there was a painter. He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon. Two coats!
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(https://c.tenor.com/KEy2voJRdaIAAAAC/jokes-joke.gif])
Oh I got the “joke”. Clearly referring to the idea that the stupid hand signal should have been ignored, instead of treated like a nouveau swastika. But if you really weren’t meaning that AT ALL and it was just a simple lol on a vacuum? Ooooookkkk
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Whoopi Goldberg suspended for two weeks by ABC for saying the Holocaust was “not about race. It’s about man’s inhumanity to man."
From WaPo:
Goldberg’s comments on Monday came as the panel discussed a Tennessee school district’s decision to ban the graphic novel “Maus,” citing nudity and profanity it deemed inappropriate. The Pulitzer-winning book zones in on the horrors of the Holocaust, including the killing of children, Nazi gas chambers and forced labor.
Six million European Jews were systematically killed by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II, including an estimated 1.5 million children — and Holocaust remembrance and anti-hate groups quickly jumped in to denounce Goldberg’s comments.
“Racism was central to Nazi ideology,” the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum tweeted Monday. “Jews were not defined by religion, but by race. Nazi racist beliefs fueled genocide and mass murder.”
Jonathan Greenblatt, chief executive of the Anti-Defamation League, tweeted to Goldberg that the Holocaust “was about the Nazi’s systematic annihilation of the Jewish people — who they deemed to be an inferior race. They dehumanized them and used this racist propaganda to justify slaughtering 6 million Jews. Holocaust distortion is dangerous.”
Late Monday, Goldberg apologized, tweeting to her 1.6 million followers: “On today’s show, I said the Holocaust ‘is not about race, but about man’s inhumanity to man.’ I should have said it is about both. … The Jewish people around the world have always had my support and that will never waiver. I’m sorry for the hurt I have caused.”
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I'm offended. The unmitigated gall to use a surname like Goldberg and then spit out chit like this is beyond repair. Anyone who wasn't asleep in History 101 realizes the Holocaust was Hitler's attempt at genocide of an entire race, hey?
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I'm offended. The unmitigated gall to use a surname like Goldberg and then spit out chit like this is beyond repair. Anyone who wasn't asleep in History 101 realizes the Holocaust was Hitler's attempt at genocide of an entire race, hey?
Not just one, but yeah.
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"white surpremecist things" is making a hand motion?
Yes. How is this hard to understand?
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I don’t think it’s fair that Hitler got to ruin the full arm and finger extended point.
Yeah, why did people react so strongly to it? Why did they make such a big deal of it? They should have just ignored it, because to call it out just gives it power. Ignore it and it will totally go away.
You know what the real problem here is? The people calling out the racist hand gesture.
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Yeah, why did people react so strongly to it? Why did they make such a big deal of it? They should have just ignored it, because to call it out just gives it power. Ignore it and it will totally go away.
You know what the real problem here is? The people calling out the racist hand gesture.
wow, comparing a troll attempt by a few cosplayers to Hitler. Another example of how ridiculous wokeness has become.
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(https://c.tenor.com/yTxA7WgkBEUAAAAC/grandpa-abe-exit.gif)
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Woke 😂
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Whoopi Goldberg suspended for two weeks by ABC for saying the Holocaust was “not about race. It’s about man’s inhumanity to man."
Did you know that her real name is Caryn Johnson?
Her remarks were not surprising given that her stage name was cultural appropriation.
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wow, comparing a troll attempt by a few cosplayers to Hitler. Another example of how ridiculous wokeness has become.
The cosplayers that the ex-President called "very fine people"? The cosplayers that he told to "stand by"? The "few" cosplayers that attacked Congress? Those cosplayers?
But hey, keep defending the racist white nationalists. Beer Summits with Pops must be a gas.
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no, it's an example of how the woke have immediately rushed to demonize something and cancel individuals over an obvious troll.
Instead of saying "this is BS, don't let them win" it "let them have it and anyone who makes that symbol is an obvious racist and must be dealt with accordingly" When virtue signaling leads to the firing of innocent people, or the firing/disciplining of people for things they wrote on social media when they were kids, or what happened to the Jeopardy guy, it's gone to far and makes progressives look foolish and out of touch (see: last Friday's Real Time with Bill Maher).
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firing-innocent/613615/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/jeopardy-slammed-winner-alleged-white-power-hand-gesture-4175660/
Bill Maher is a neoliberal a$$hole who hasn't been funny in decades. Boomer humor.
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Bill Maher is a neoliberal a$$hole who hasn't been funny in decades. Boomer humor.
Give up the boomer joke. It isn't witty, funny, or Pakuni.
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Give up the boomer joke. It isn't witty, funny, or Pakuni.
I'll take that under advisement, old man.
Anything else you'd like to deem unfunny? I've got a list of your 'hits' if you're interested.
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Give up the boomer joke. It isn't witty, funny, or Pakuni.
OK, boomer.
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Here's our new seal:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__today.marquette.edu_2022_02_board-2Dof-2Dtrustees-2Dapproves-2Dupdated-2Duniversity-2Dseal-2Dthat-2Dhonors-2Dcatholic-2Djesuit-2Dtradition-2Dand-2Dindigenous-2Dnations_&d=DwMF-g&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=xMe4opsVYFgLuPt_GcoG7mQvpA07i9dq30CVhRvDDms&m=fmU4KbWEp6GSs1FHwVDXcb4OmBxBi3UgHIynTPD6CLo&s=TB9c5CCYDLvYd18K7tGbbty8aopUggASJzailebVd7c&e=
(https://today.marquette.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/New-seal-700x385.png)
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I like the three stalks of barley that represent the original Big Three Milwaukee breweries: Schlitz, Pabst, and Miller.
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That looks pretty good.
No Pere Marquette, but they worked in a river.
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They could have had him drinking a Miller, Pabst, or Schlitz.
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They could have had him drinking a Miller, Pabst, or Schlitz.
The old seal had a cooler full of cold ones in the canoe.
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Looks good.
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I was hoping they would go in a different direction, like changing the seal to a walrus.
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I was hoping they would go in a different direction, like changing the seal to a walrus.
They could add a seal frolicking in one of the rivers. Or a walrus for that matter.
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Imma gonna yell at the next fund raising kid that calls me.
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I'm disappointed they got rid of the wolves. Probably something, something colonizers about wolves.
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I'm disappointed they got rid of the wolves. Probably something, something colonizers about wolves.
What was it representing before? I noticed that to and was curious why.
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The two wolves were fighting over the last bottle in the bucket 'o beer.
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Anybody interested in a "collector's edition" class ring?
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Okay.
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What was it representing before? I noticed that to and was curious why.
The wolves are from the Coat of arms of the Loyola family in honor of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus.
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What was it representing before? I noticed that to and was curious why.
Clearly the wolves were problematic. They represented two brothers tearing apart the Marquette basketball program and are featured prominently in the coat of arms of the Ellenson and Hauser family.
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Here's our new seal:
(https://today.marquette.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/New-seal-700x385.png)
Generally, I think it looks good. I really don't feel strongly about the seal in general. From a purely stylistic standpoint, I liked the diagonal division previously more than the horizontal division. I also liked the "Marquette" arching on the top and "University" arching on the bottom more than I like the "Marquette University" arching across the top. I like the inclusion of AMDG more than the old "Numen Flumenque". To that end, I would have liked them to just go with the abbreviation and make it smaller like they had with the old Latin motto (perhaps within the red/gold sector). Visually, I like the rivers/rice more than the old Pere Marquette canoe. I kind of liked the wolves - I'll miss them.
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Be interesting to see the new seal. Personally, I thought the old seal said it all. Pere Marquette, witnessing and evangelizing to the Indians and treating them and their culture with respect and dignity.
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Be interesting to see the new seal.
Um, look ^
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I don’t see a chalk outline anywhere
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Generally, I think it looks good. From a purely stylistic standpoint, I liked the diagonal division previously more than the horizontal division. I also liked the "Marquette" arching on the top and "University" arching on the bottom more than I like the "Marquette University" arching across the top. I like the inclusion of AMDG more than the old "Numen Flumenque". To that end, I would have liked them to just go with the abbreviation and make it smaller like they had with the old Latin motto (perhaps within the red/gold sector). Visually, I like the rivers/rice more than the old Pere Marquette canoe. I kind of liked the wolves - I'll miss them.
I agree with most of this, except I think the whole rivers section is pretty generic compared to the badass depiction of Pere Marquette in the outgoing seal.
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It's not bad.
I was expecting a lot worse give the number of and diverse interests of the committee members that put it together.
I was worried that it might look like the backs of the jerseys that we had awhile back that included every Marquette basketball trope (including a picture of Al).
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If they hadn't gone public, 3 people might have noticed.
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Um, look ^
Thank you. When I see 11 pages on the subject, I need people like you to direct me.
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Will they also be removing the picture from the library that inspired the first seal?
Unfortunately none of this historical context matters. All that matters is the five-second unthinking emotional reaction you have to the seal.
Should the painting also come down?
(https://digitalmarquette.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/singleitem/image/p128701coll4/30/default.jpg?highlightTerms=)
Père Jacques Marquette meeting with American Indians during his 1673 expedition. Father Marquette stands in a canoe with two American Indian guides. The Mississippi River and bluffs are behind him. Oil painting owned by the Patrick and Beatrice Haggerty Museum of Art, Marquette University.
The image is taken from an 1869 Wilhelm Lamprecht painting, “Father Marquette and the Indians,” gifted to the university soon after its founding. The Lamprecht painting can be seen on the second floor of the Raynor Memorial Libraries.
According to a paper by university archivist Mark Thiel, scholars identified the native voyagers in the original painting as Metis, or men of mixed French and Native American ancestry who helped guide Marquette in present-day Wisconsin along with villages of Mascoutin or Illinois and Miami Native Americans.
The seal comes under criticism, however, as some members of the Marquette community argue the full painting differs significantly from the cropped version on the seal, resulting in an image that communicates dominance for Father Marquette over the Native American figure.
“The painting depicts Father Marquette essentially asking directions from a standing Native American,” Tol Foster, a professor in the English department who specializes in American Indian studies, said in an email. “The standing Native American is cut out of the seal, such that instead of asking for directions, Pere Marquette seems to be telling the Indian steering his canoe where to go, which is amusing if you consider that the person least likely to know directions in this strange new land would have been the explorer himself.”
Foster uses the seal in his classes to explore Native American representation. Similarly, Jodi Melamed, an associate professor of English and Africana Studies, incorporates the image into Marquette courses she teaches to focus on race and ethnic studies.
“Where Father Marquette is active and commanding, the Native figure appears passive and subservient,” Melamed said. “It’s the classic colonialist and white supremacist division of humanity being represented: the white Jesuit provides the direction, he’s the brains of the outfit, the Native person provides the labor and follows the white person’s lead.”
Others perceive the university’s depiction of Native Americans differently. Jacqueline Schram, faculty advisor of Marquette’s Native American Student Association, sees the image as an inspiration of reflection and hope that Marquette can work to improve its focus on Native American issues and students.
“For me, the Native American in our seal serves as both a source of pride and compass,” Schram said in an email. “The decision to indelibly etch the historic relationship between the First Peoples of Wisconsin and Father Marquette pays homage to the interdependency and inspires a sense of hope that this can be once again.”
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I agree with most of this, except I think the whole rivers section is pretty generic compared to the badass depiction of Pere Marquette in the outgoing seal.
badass? lol
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Will they also be removing the picture from the library that inspired the first seal?
One is art, the other is a logo.
Art will always be fine when there is context. Just like the statues taken away from public squares and placed in museums are fine.
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Typical product of a committee...sucks ass, hey?
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The wolves are from the Coat of arms of the Loyola family in honor of St. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Society of Jesus.
Specifically, the generosity of the House of Loyola (having enough to even give the wolves).
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Here's our new seal:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__today.marquette.edu_2022_02_board-2Dof-2Dtrustees-2Dapproves-2Dupdated-2Duniversity-2Dseal-2Dthat-2Dhonors-2Dcatholic-2Djesuit-2Dtradition-2Dand-2Dindigenous-2Dnations_&d=DwMF-g&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=xMe4opsVYFgLuPt_GcoG7mQvpA07i9dq30CVhRvDDms&m=fmU4KbWEp6GSs1FHwVDXcb4OmBxBi3UgHIynTPD6CLo&s=TB9c5CCYDLvYd18K7tGbbty8aopUggASJzailebVd7c&e=
(https://today.marquette.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/New-seal-700x385.png)
Marquette University cancels Pere Marquette, its namesake from their official seal. Just be done with it and rename the University if they're so ashamed of his image.
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I’m so outraged.
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Mite as well bee kalled Pussay University with a wet, harey kat as our maskot, aina?
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Nah. The students are being toughened up by all the gunplay.
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Mite as well bee kalled Pussay University with a wet, harey kat as our maskot, aina?
Why?
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Typical product of a committee...sucks ass, hey?
If anything, I’d say the previous one looks like it was designed by a committee. To me this one looks much cleaner. I’m pleasantly surprised with how it turned out. Onto the next thing to get up in arms about.
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If anything, I’d say the previous one looks like it was designed by a committee. To me this one looks much cleaner. I’m pleasantly surprised with how it turned out. Onto the next thing to get up in arms about.
The usual snowflakes will complain like always
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Push back on cancel culture. No place for history in today's world. If you don't like it, cancel and poof it never existed, hey?
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Push back on cancel culture. No place for history in today's world. If you don't like it, cancel and poof it never existed, hey?
Yeah people in history have never canceled things they didn't like. But you're right because it effects you now it means it never happened before.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejection_of_Jesus#Rejection_as_the_Jewish_messiah
https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/martin-luther-excommunicated
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-galileo-and-his-conflict-with-the-catholic-church
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I wonder if the couple of Native American students that complained about the old seal are happy now that all Native American representation has been erased from the new seal. They have been reduced to a few weeds blowing in the wind.
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(https://i.giphy.com/media/3o6MbudZJtl8nNebaE/giphy.webp)
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Push back on cancel culture. No place for history in today's world. If you don't like it, cancel and poof it never existed, hey?
I don't seem to remember you being upset about Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger getting canceled by the GOP and its overlord.
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I don't seem to remember you being upset about Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger getting canceled by the GOP and its overlord.
We've missed you the last few days. ::) ::)
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Here's our new seal:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__today.marquette.edu_2022_02_board-2Dof-2Dtrustees-2Dapproves-2Dupdated-2Duniversity-2Dseal-2Dthat-2Dhonors-2Dcatholic-2Djesuit-2Dtradition-2Dand-2Dindigenous-2Dnations_&d=DwMF-g&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=xMe4opsVYFgLuPt_GcoG7mQvpA07i9dq30CVhRvDDms&m=fmU4KbWEp6GSs1FHwVDXcb4OmBxBi3UgHIynTPD6CLo&s=TB9c5CCYDLvYd18K7tGbbty8aopUggASJzailebVd7c&e=
(https://today.marquette.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/New-seal-700x385.png)
It's about as generic as you can get. Turn the symbol of the Eucharist into a rising sun and we could be a logo for the University of Iowa.
Personally, I don't care what it looks like so much as what we're running from. Graphic designers can tell me whether it's clean and eye-catching or not. What they can't tell me is why a small group of native Americans finding our namesake offensive is enough to change something that defines who and what we are.
I'm rather surprised they left a symbol of the Eucharist in the seal. Only God knows how long it's going to be before that's eliminated because we might possibly offend a group of atheists.
I can hardly wait until Marquette mails me a new diploma with the new seal and wants the old one back!!!!! ;D
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What they can't tell me is why a small group of native Americans finding our namesake offensive is enough to change something that defines who and what we are.
I love Marquette as much as anyone. What I don't understand is how someone could spend four years there and come away thinking that the university seal "defines who and what we are."
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It's about as generic as you can get. Turn the symbol of the Eucharist into a rising sun and we could be a logo for the University of Iowa.
Personally, I don't care what it looks like so much as what we're running from. Graphic designers can tell me whether it's clean and eye-catching or not. What they can't tell me is why a small group of native Americans finding our namesake offensive is enough to change something that defines who and what we are.
I'm rather surprised they left a symbol of the Eucharist in the seal. Only God knows how long it's going to be before that's eliminated because we might possibly offend a group of atheists.
I can hardly wait until Marquette mails me a new diploma with the new seal and wants the old one back!!!!! ;D
I'm still outraged.
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Push back on cancel culture. No place for history in today's world. If you don't like it, cancel and poof it never existed, hey?
What’s been cancelled?
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Mite as well bee kalled Pussay University with a wet, harey kat as our maskot, aina?
I'd think they'd have a dentist as the mascot in that case
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Push back on cancel culture. No place for history in today's world. If you don't like it, cancel and poof it never existed, hey?
Exactly. For instance, the teaching about race and slavery, am I right?
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Smith The error is teaching that that is what defines us a s a country when it truly does not.
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Exactly. For instance, the teaching about race and slavery, am I right?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfHOE8hUEAArW3T.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfHOE8hUEAArW3T.jpg)
We’ve got our trifecta, folks! Woke mob, cancel culture and virtue signaling.
Congrats to everyone for getting us there in less than 24 hours. Thanks for your efforts and hard work.
Check your accounts for scoop credit.
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Meanwhile, in Texas ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/us/texas-child-abuse-trans-youth.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20220301&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=84297&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
HOUSTON — Texas officials have begun investigating parents of transgender adolescents for possible child abuse, according to a lawsuit filed on Tuesday, after Gov. Greg Abbott directed them last week to handle certain medical treatments as possible crimes.
The investigations by the state’s Department of Family and Protective Services, which have not been previously reported, were launched in response to an order from Mr. Abbott to the agency, the lawsuit says. The order followed a nonbinding opinion by the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, that parents who provide their transgender teenagers with puberty-suppressing drugs or other medically accepted treatments — which doctors describe as gender-affirming care — could be investigated for child abuse.
Among the first to be investigated was an employee of the state protective services agency who has a 16-year-old transgender child. On Tuesday, the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas and Lambda Legal went to state court in Austin to try to stop the inquiry.
The employee, who was not named in the court filing, works on the review of reports of abuse and neglect. She was placed on administrative leave last week, according to the filing, and on Friday was visited by an investigator from the agency, which is also seeking medical records related to her child. The family of the child, identified in court documents only as Mary Doe, has refused to voluntarily turn over the records.
These are the same people who have no problem with forcing "conversion therapy" on gay kids. Wow. Talk about virtue signaling, cancel culture, and "fear and control."
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Meanwhile, in Texas ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/us/texas-child-abuse-trans-youth.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20220301&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=headline®i_id=108420427&segment_id=84297&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
HOUSTON — Texas officials have begun investigating parents of transgender adolescents for possible child abuse, according to a lawsuit filed on Tuesday, after Gov. Greg Abbott directed them last week to handle certain medical treatments as possible crimes.
The investigations by the state’s Department of Family and Protective Services, which have not been previously reported, were launched in response to an order from Mr. Abbott to the agency, the lawsuit says. The order followed a nonbinding opinion by the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, that parents who provide their transgender teenagers with puberty-suppressing drugs or other medically accepted treatments — which doctors describe as gender-affirming care — could be investigated for child abuse.
Among the first to be investigated was an employee of the state protective services agency who has a 16-year-old transgender child. On Tuesday, the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas and Lambda Legal went to state court in Austin to try to stop the inquiry.
The employee, who was not named in the court filing, works on the review of reports of abuse and neglect. She was placed on administrative leave last week, according to the filing, and on Friday was visited by an investigator from the agency, which is also seeking medical records related to her child. The family of the child, identified in court documents only as Mary Doe, has refused to voluntarily turn over the records.
These are the same people who have no problem with forcing "conversion therapy" on gay kids. Wow. Talk about virtue signaling, cancel culture, and "fear and control."
WTF does any of this have to do with changing the Marquette University seal???
Someone help this person...
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I am surprised this catastrophe hasn't gotten more coverage. I mean, what is more important than this? Certainly not Covid or Ukraine.
The complainers here seem like a bunch of whiny Karens. Sad. Really. Most of you couldn't have even picked out the seal out a line up of similar ones before this. Faux outrage at its best.
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WTF does any of this have to do with changing the Marquette University seal???
It has to do with virtue signaling and cancel culture, which some here love to talk about at every turn.
The seal discussion was dead. We are all properly outraged at that great affront to humanity.
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It has to do with virtue signaling and cancel culture, which some here love to talk about at every turn.
The seal discussion was dead. We are all properly outraged at that great affront to humanity.
The Threadkiller speaks.
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I love Marquette as much as anyone. What I don't understand is how someone could spend four years there and come away thinking that the university seal "defines who and what we are."
Brother Still:
The seal is a bit like a sacrament -- it's an outward side of the university. Maybe my wording was not as precise as it should be. My view is that who we are is a function of the values and the instruction we took away from our four years at Marquette. The philosophy, theology and approach to the world that we encounter in our professional studies.
The seal is a reflection of what we stand for. It's a flag of sorts. By removing Father Marquette from the seal, which we did, we are raising serious questions about our university's namesake. The signal you're sending is that in carrying out Jesus' command to go and teach all nations, Father Marquette did things that contraindicate the Catholic values for which we stand.
Why else would you change. Convince me there is NOT a cause and effect between a group of bizarre protestors who think our Church was an evil scourge on Native Americans and the changing of the seal.
In the meantime, I repeat my earlier question -- How long will it be before we change our name to Wisconsin Jesuit University? Oh, but that might offend someone who thinks the Catholic Church is evil and so we disavow any connection to Catholicism.
The seal is meaningless. The way we walk away from what we are is not.
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Just change the name of the university at this point and remove the statue from the quad. That will teach people a lesson!
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https://twitter.com/ua_parliament/status/1498750864512716803?s=20&t=BqGrgtkjxAi460KCiEijrQ
I can't believe they aren't outraged about changing the seal!
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https://twitter.com/ua_parliament/status/1498750864512716803?s=20&t=BqGrgtkjxAi460KCiEijrQ
I can't believe they aren't outraged about changing the seal!
Go ahead and post this in the Arby's thread next. Or the March Madness thread. Not everyone (in fact hardly anyone) is here to talk about Ukraine all the time.
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The Threadkiller speaks.
Yes, it would be a shame if this thread died. It had such promise!
But seriously ... trying to throw parents in jail for helping their 16-year-old transgender children with the medication they need. That's Texas, for sure, but I'm guessing Florida is pissed they didn't think of it first.
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Just change the name of the university at this point and remove the statue from the quad. That will teach people a lesson!
Woquette University.
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WTF does any of this have to do with changing the Marquette University seal???
Someone help this person...
About as much as dentists whining about cancel culture ...
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Brother Still:
The seal is a bit like a sacrament -- it's an outward side of the university. Maybe my wording was not as precise as it should be. My view is that who we are is a function of the values and the instruction we took away from our four years at Marquette. The philosophy, theology and approach to the world that we encounter in our professional studies.
The seal is a reflection of what we stand for. It's a flag of sorts. By removing Father Marquette from the seal, which we did, we are raising serious questions about our university's namesake. The signal you're sending is that in carrying out Jesus' command to go and teach all nations, Father Marquette did things that contraindicate the Catholic values for which we stand.
Why else would you change. Convince me there is NOT a cause and effect between a group of bizarre protestors who think our Church was an evil scourge on Native Americans and the changing of the seal.
In the meantime, I repeat my earlier question -- How long will it be before we change our name to Wisconsin Jesuit University? Oh, but that might offend someone who thinks the Catholic Church is evil and so we disavow any connection to Catholicism.
The seal is meaningless. The way we walk away from what we are is not.
Brother dgies,
Allow me to respectfully suggest that you may be too wrapped up with symbolism.
When the university starts abandoning its mission and values, then let the pearl-clutching commence. I may even join you.
But until you can provide me with some evidence that is occurring, I'll greet this change with the shrug it deserves.
And your suggestion that Marquette is going to change its name ... seems like the worst sort of slippery slope argument to me. Wasn't Logic a required course back in your day?
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Smith The error is teaching that that is what defines us a s a country when it truly does not.
I see, I see.
Guess that explains the massive number of books being banned as well.
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The error is teaching that that is what defines us a s a country when it truly does not.
Good thing no high school, middle school or elementary school in the entire country teaches it.
Yes, something at least remotely close to what you might call CRT is taught as an elective at a few universities ... which surely will lead to the fall of White America.
I gotta hand it to y'all, though: You're very good at staying on point with stuff like pretend CRT teaching, the War on Xmas, cancel culture, rigged elections, etc -- no matter how misleading, dangerous or outright false the point is.