Marquette to change/update University Seal

[The Sultan]

There is a huge difference between being heard and acting on the voice of a very small segment of the community looking for a grievance.

What's important is twofold. First, the university needs to ensure folks are being heard and where offense is taken, someone is listening and willing to consider the offense.

Second, there needs to be a clear process by which possible action should be evaluated. The process should be open and clear, so reason becomes the basis for an action.

I'm an old-timer but I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a seal in which Father Marquette is pointing the way in a canoe. That's probably what happened as the good padre's curiosity was aroused by things he saw along the way. If in fact we think the seal is racist, inflammatory or otherwise insulting to one or more segments of Marquette's stakeholders, then we have a hell of a lot bigger problem than a seal.

For if the notion prevails that a Roman Catholic priest leading a native American is insulting, then it is time to change the name of Marquette University, dump the Roman Catholic mission of the institution and run from everything we as Marquette grads, administrators and professors have stood for since 1881. This is just more than I can handle.

Dump Willie Wampum -- by all means. That was offensive.

Get Rid of Warriors -- yeah, I get it. Some found it offensive and while I would have strongly preferred we stay, I'm OK with being the Furry Birds. Gives me something to laugh about (the ugliness of the furry bird) and it probably keeps us out of the boiling kettle of oil the NCAA was preparing for us.

The Seal -- That just goes too far, because we're taking away something at the heart of our mission.

The seal is something "at the heart of our mission?"  WTF are you talking about?  It's literally just a fancy-a$$ logo for official documents. 

Honestly they made way too big a deal of this.  They should have simply changed it and moved on.

[dgies9156]

Brother Fluff:

Conceptually, I agree that the seal is nothing more than ink on paper. But the symbolism behind it is what's stirring people. The imagery of Father Marquette and Louis Joliet with the native Americans of North America is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church's mission to go forth and spread the Good News.

That was part of Father Marquette's mission four centuries ago and still is part of Marquette's mission today -- to explore knowledge and to spread the news of Jesus Christ.

You and I probably are of different generations. But, I have to ask a simple question: If one is offended at an image of a Catholic Jesuit priest leading and, perhaps teaching, a band of peace-loving Native Americans then one can only wonder, "What on Earth are you doing at Marquette University?"

At what point does this stop?

Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?

Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?

Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?

I've been a willing and proud supporter of Marquette almost every year since I was graduated. I like what it was when I was there. I still like what Marquette is and I hope it stays true to its core beliefs in the future.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

A gold seal as the seal?

Would make muggsy and smith(with his weird obsession with posting seal photos, must be an odd fetish or something) happy.

seal <> sea lion

[The Sultan]

Brother Fluff:

Conceptually, I agree that the seal is nothing more than ink on paper. But the symbolism behind it is what's stirring people. The imagery of Father Marquette and Louis Joliet with the native Americans of North America is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church's mission to go forth and spread the Good News.

That was part of Father Marquette's mission four centuries ago and still is part of Marquette's mission today -- to explore knowledge and to spread the news of Jesus Christ.

You and I probably are of different generations. But, I have to ask a simple question: If one is offended at an image of a Catholic Jesuit priest leading and, perhaps teaching, a band of peace-loving Native Americans then one can only wonder, "What on Earth are you doing at Marquette University?"

At what point does this stop?

Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?

Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?

Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?

I've been a willing and proud supporter of Marquette almost every year since I was graduated. I like what it was when I was there. I still like what Marquette is and I hope it stays true to its core beliefs in the future.

At what point does what stop?  Maybe in the future Marquette will drop its affiliation with the Catholic Church. (It's happened at many other schools with Christian roots.) Maybe it will drop basketball. No institution remains changeless.

Regardless  the official seal is SOOOO low stakes.  It could have simply been changed and no one really would have cared. If changing it means a traditionally oppressed minority feels better about the school, that's fine by me.

[dgies9156]

At what point does what stop?  Maybe in the future Marquette will drop its affiliation with the Catholic Church. (It's happened at many other schools with Christian roots.) Maybe it will drop basketball. No institution remains changeless.

Regardless  the official seal is SOOOO low stakes.  It could have simply been changed and no one really would have cared. If changing it means a traditionally oppressed minority feels better about the school, that's fine by me.

Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.

Many of us couldn't care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.

By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?

[The Sultan]

Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.

Many of us couldn't care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.

By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?

The Church has recognized and apologized for how it treated indigenous people during the colonialization era. Both Francis and JPII have issued apologies in that regard.

https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2015/07/09/53009/pope-apologizes-for-church-s-indigenous-offenses-c/

So why is a Catholic institution continuing to use a symbol of that past on its seal?  I would argue that people who are asking for this change are closer to following the Word than those who are opposing it.

[dgies9156]

The Church has recognized and apologized for how it treated indigenous people during the colonialization era. Both Francis and JPII have issued apologies in that regard.

https://archive.kpcc.org/news/2015/07/09/53009/pope-apologizes-for-church-s-indigenous-offenses-c/

So why is a Catholic institution continuing to use a symbol of that past on its seal?  I would argue that people who are asking for this change are closer to following the Word than those who are opposing it.

Fluff, ole buddy, that is a blanket apology against any and all acts contrary to the Word, teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Teachings of Jesus.

To assume that Father Marquette committed the actions of which the Pope spoke requires evidence. Maybe it's out there, but everything I've seen to date suggests there is no historical evidence that Father Marquette committed atrocities against the Native American population.

By contrast, my Roman Catholic high school in Nashville, Tennessee was named for a priest who had open hatred for the union and for President Lincoln. His writings show that Father Abram Ryan was not only a Confederate sympathizer, he also was an advocate of slavery and quite adversarial to the cause of African American freedom.

Being a Midwestern born dude and coming from a family who not only were Wisconsinites but also fought for the United States in that war and who promoted equality in word and deed, I had a great deal of discomfort with the school's namesake, even when I attended the school. As more came out, many of my fellow grads advocate for the renaming of Father Ryan High School, consistent with the principles of which Pope Francis and you speak. I'm an advocate of renaming the school -- maybe back top its original name, Nashville Catholic High School! In that instance, I understand your point.

I don't see it with Marquette.

[The Sultan]

Fluff, ole buddy, that is a blanket apology against any and all acts contrary to the Word, teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Teachings of Jesus.

To assume that Father Marquette committed the actions of which the Pope spoke requires evidence. Maybe it's out there, but everything I've seen to date suggests there is no historical evidence that Father Marquette committed atrocities against the Native American population.

I never said Father Marquette did any of that.  I said the picture on the seal was a "symbol of that past." 

By contrast, my Roman Catholic high school in Nashville, Tennessee was named for a priest who had open hatred for the union and for President Lincoln. His writings show that Father Abram Ryan was not only a Confederate sympathizer, he also was an advocate of slavery and quite adversarial to the cause of African American freedom.

Being a Midwestern born dude and coming from a family who not only were Wisconsinites but also fought for the United States in that war and who promoted equality in word and deed, I had a great deal of discomfort with the school's namesake, even when I attended the school. As more came out, many of my fellow grads advocate for the renaming of Father Ryan High School, consistent with the principles of which Pope Francis and you speak. I'm an advocate of renaming the school -- maybe back top its original name, Nashville Catholic High School! In that instance, I understand your point.

I don't see it with Marquette.

I don't want them to rename the University either.

[Hards Alumni]

Fluff, I agree with you that most changes are low stakes. The last few probably were hardly noticed, especially given the one today and comparing it to the one on my diploma.

Many of us couldn't care less about the seal. It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.

By the way, any thoughts on why people who think Father Marquette and the Catholic Faith be preached to Native Americans is racist are enrolled at Marquette University?

Scares the hell out of you?  If it's offensive to a group of people change it.

Imagine being a grown ass man in 2022 and giving a single damn about changing the SEAL of the university you attended DECADES ago.

I've gone over this before.  You older guys have not been in school for a long time... and I'm getting there (18 years ago).  Marquette is a 'Catholic' school almost in name only.  I had to take TWO religion classes.  One was 101 and the other was "Medical Ethics"... not exactly religious, but it counts.  I'd guess the only reason that Marquette leans on it's religious affiliation is for recruiting purposes.  Most of my time at Marquette almost two decades ago was entirely secular.

[Pakuni]

At what point does this stop?

Does the university change its name because someone believes Father Marquette may have been a bigot (one would think that's the foundation of the protests happening now)?

Does Marquette de-affiliate with the Roman Catholic Church because someone does not like some of the past actions of the Catholic church (hint: some were pretty bad)?

Do we eliminate basketball because some believe it is unworthy an institution of higher education?

dgies9156 ... as a Marquette alum, I assume you at some point completed a Logic 101 class and were taught how to recognize a fallacious slippery slope argument when you see one.
How you got from "tweaking the seal" to "de-affiliating from the church and eliminating basketball" is quite the slide.

[The Sultan]

Furthermore, unlike many other Catholic higher education institutions, Marquette University does not have any entity (like the Jesuits) who have reserved powers over the University.  For instance, at many schools, the school must receive permission from the founding order for actions that Marquette can do on its own.  (Take out debt to a certain limit, dispose of real property, elect trustees, etc.)  It is a completely, independent corporation.

[🏀]

It is the reasons for changing it that scare the hell out of us.

[NolongerWarriors]

So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?

[The Sultan]

So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?

If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it. 

What's the big deal?

[Galway Eagle]

So how many offended people are enough to cause Marquette to change a seal (or anything else for that matter)?

Well it depends, how many of these people are nice guys who insult the hausers and how many of the objectors have never insulted anyone after saying "f*ck off"?

[BrewCity83]

If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it. 

What's the big deal?

I agree with that broad statement.

But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.

[Hards Alumni]

I agree with that broad statement.

But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.

Let's put it this way.  If we have to have a discussion about whether or not enough people are offended, just replace the thing.

[cheebs09]

I agree with that broad statement.

But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.

More than people directly impacted can be offended. I wouldn't say I'm offended, but think MU could do a little better. Especially having now seen the original picture it's based on.

[Hards Alumni]

More than people directly impacted can be offended. I wouldn't say I'm offended, but think MU could do a little better. Especially having now seen the original picture it's based on.

I'd say I'm more embarrassed than offended, but that's just semantics.

[The Sultan]

I agree with that broad statement.

But if there are only 13 current Native American undergrad students, and even all of them can't agree to be offended, then that's certainly not a significant number.

Why are you limiting the universe of people who are offended to the current Native students at Marquettte?

[jesmu84]

If there are a significant number of people, and changing it doesn't really impact anyone else, you change it. 

What's the big deal?

You're such a PC lib cuck

[BrewCity83]

Why are you limiting the universe of people who are offended to the current Native students at Marquettte?

Because they're the only ones who are complaining about it.

[The Sultan]

Because they're the only ones who are complaining about it.

But they may not be the only ones who are offended...or embarrassed. 

[wadesworld]

Let's put it this way.  If we have to have a discussion about whether or not enough people are offended, just replace the thing.

Bingo.

[JWags85]

Scares the hell out of you?  If it's offensive to a group of people change it.

Devils advocate, is this a blanket rule?  No matter what the issue or how small?

My alma mater had an issue a few years ago.  A sorority had a formal at an African American Heritage museum.  An niche AA student group (<10 members) on campus raised a protest due to the sorority and my alma mater's predominant white demographic (though the event chair who organized it was herself AA and no members of the student group were in said sorority).

I'm not saying this "scares the hell out of me" or the like.  And I'm not trying to say its some slippery slope, but I am genuinely curious the perception of "just change it" thinking whenever a group signals offense as a blanket sentiment.