Marquette to change/update University Seal

[Galway Eagle]

Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.

Slippery slope fallacy. Please make an argument without logical fallacies that this is a bad thing.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/

[jficke13]

Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.

lol. Very. Serious. Man. with VERY serious Concerns.

[Heisenberg]

Unfortunately none of this historical context matters.  All that matters is the five-second unthinking emotional reaction you have to the seal.

Should the painting also come down? 




Père Jacques Marquette meeting with American Indians during his 1673 expedition. Father Marquette stands in a canoe with two American Indian guides. The Mississippi River and bluffs are behind him. Oil painting owned by the Patrick and Beatrice Haggerty Museum of Art, Marquette University.

The image is taken from an 1869 Wilhelm Lamprecht painting, "Father Marquette and the Indians," gifted to the university soon after its founding. The Lamprecht painting can be seen on the second floor of the Raynor Memorial Libraries.

According to a paper by university archivist Mark Thiel, scholars  identified the native voyagers in the original painting as Metis, or men of mixed French and Native American ancestry who helped guide Marquette in present-day Wisconsin along with villages of Mascoutin or Illinois and Miami Native Americans.

The seal comes under criticism, however, as some members of the Marquette community argue the full painting differs significantly from the cropped version on the seal, resulting in an image that communicates dominance for Father Marquette over the Native American figure.

"The painting depicts Father Marquette essentially asking directions from a standing Native American," Tol Foster, a professor in the English department who specializes in American Indian studies, said in an email. "The standing Native American is cut out of the seal, such that instead of asking for directions, Pere Marquette seems to be telling the Indian steering his canoe where to go, which is amusing if you consider that the person least likely to know directions in this strange new land would have been the explorer himself."

Foster uses the seal in his classes to explore Native American representation. Similarly, Jodi Melamed, an associate professor of English and Africana Studies, incorporates the image into Marquette courses she teaches to focus on race and ethnic studies.

"Where Father Marquette is active and commanding, the Native figure appears passive and subservient," Melamed said. "It's the classic colonialist and white supremacist division of humanity being represented: the white Jesuit provides the direction, he's the brains of the outfit, the Native person provides the labor and follows the white person's lead."

Others perceive the university's depiction of Native Americans differently. Jacqueline Schram, faculty advisor of Marquette's Native American Student Association, sees the image as an inspiration of reflection and hope that Marquette can work to improve its focus on Native American issues and students.

"For me, the Native American in our seal serves as both a source of pride and compass," Schram said in an email. "The decision to indelibly etch the historic relationship between the First Peoples of Wisconsin and Father Marquette pays homage to the interdependency and inspires a sense of hope that this can be once again."

[ZiggysFryBoy]

If the seal is just changed to a less stereotypical Indian and Marquette isn't standing & pointing then will you be upset?

Looks to me like the Indian is ignoring Pere Marquette pointing in the wrong direction and is continuing to paddle where he wants to go.

[The Sultan]

I think the phrase "less stereotypical Indian" in this topic is quite ironic.

[Pakuni]

Better. But still a bit silly.

Why?
Are seals for some reason sacrosanct relative to logos or uniforms?

[warriorchick]

There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.

They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.

[StillAWarrior]

Why?
Are seals for some reason sacrosanct relative to logos or uniforms?

Sacrosanct? Definitely not. But it's a false equivalence. They are unrelated. It would make as much sense as saying that Marquette hasn't changed its name in 113 years, so why should it change the seal? Or, Marquette changes the cafeteria menu three times a day, so why would changing the seal three times a day be an affront?

Change the seal or don't change the seal. Makes absolutely no difference to me. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with how often the basketball uniforms or logos are changed.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

There is an obvious reason why the original painting was cropped the way it was for the seal.

They didn't want to emasculate Father Marquette by showing that he was asking for directions.

His wife in the front of the boat was cropped out of the image, is what you're saying.   

[StillAWarrior]

Also, I see that the seal has already been changed once since I graduated. In 1994-95. I had no idea, and don't care in the least.

[Warriors4ever]

+1 warriorchick

[LON]

They will remove the native imagery.  No doubt.

The University will not be renamed.

Yeah, and Wojo won't be fired you non-salesperson time-waster.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I think it would be cool to have an actual, live seal.

I prefer a walrus

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I prefer a walrus

THE University of the Dingle Peninsula has already claimed the walrus.

Side note, if you take a crossaint, draw two eyes and use 2 plastic fork tines for tusks, you can make a walrussaint.

[warriorchick]

His wife in the front of the boat was cropped out of the image, is what you're saying.   

Father Marquette had a wife?  Now THAT might prompt some changes in the university's branding..

[Skatastrophy]

Father Marquette had a wife?  Now THAT might prompt some changes in the university's branding..

Please refer to him as Daddy Marquette from now on.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I prefer a walrus

Will we change our mascot from Golden Eagles to Golden Walruses?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Please refer to him as Daddy Marquette from now on.

His full name is Big Daddy Marquette!

[MuggsyB]

Let's not pretend we don't know where this is going. You're naive if you think this ends with the seal. This is just the first pitch of a nine-inning game.

You're the smartest person on the planet Heisenberg, please do something.  Correct, it is getting out of hand.  Give Gale Boetticher a call when you get a chance.  Oh...nevermind.

[jficke13]

Also, I see that the seal has already been changed once since I graduated. In 1994-95. I had no idea, and don't care in the least.

Yup.

But on the other hand, when your entire identity is predicated on opening new fronts in a never-ending forever culture war, you don't let any perceived slight go to waste.

[cheebs09]

I just hope the new one doesn't look like it's designed by a committee like the Milwaukee flag (not the People's flag).

Even the current one has a lot going on compared to others.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Will we change our mascot from Golden Eagles to Golden Walruses?

I believe it would be Golden Walri

[BrewCity83]

I really like the way the current seal looks.  I would suggest keeping it substantially intact, and only changing the scene in question to show the Indian showing Fr. Marquette the way.  Keep the same artistic style.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

They should put Joan of Arc on the seal, followed by rebranding us the Warriors with JOA as our mascot.

[MuggsyB]

I believe it would be Golden Walri

Wrong.  Both Walrus and Walruses can be plural.  And I don't think Walruses like to be called Walri.  Other than that they are very comfortable in their own skin and have complete self-awareness like dolphins.  They are mighty and would be an appropriate nickname for Marquette imao.