MUScoop

I have to tell it like it is.

I am deeply disappointed in Coach Wojo right now. Common Sense was not used at all this year in his treatment of either Deonte or John. Deonte was a kid who had a solid first season, was a pillar of our future plans and by all accounts was a good student and kid. His mother passes away two days before the start of the season. So obviously the young man is stressed at a very vulnerable point in his life. Why throw fuel on the fire and demote him. Just doesn't make sense and unnecessarily created additional stress for the kid. He could of easily been given 21-22 minutes and he would have been fine with the message of you earn more with D. Wojo had to understand how tight this group of young men are. They treat each other like brothers. He has messed up the family.

Wasting a year of Johns eligibility was not the right thing to do either. He should have been upfront and honest with that kid.

I think Wojo is a very inexperienced guy. I listen to some of his hyperbole and it tells me that. Today's actions tell me there are going to be a lot of growing pains with him.

The Sun will rise again tomorrow. Kids don't always understand and it is the coaches duty to be there for them through the tough times.

I don't believe student athletes are fungible.

I was fine when you started out "telling like it is" which indicates a brutal truth is about to be delivered.

Then you basically stated that Wojo was dishonest with John Dawson and Wojo wasted a year of his eligibility.  So you have first hand knowledge of him being dishonest with Dawson?

I agree that Wojo has a learning curve.   It was impossible to get a feel for John, but I can't agree with your argument that Deonte should have gotten more playing time.    I didn't see anything from him that warranted more time.  Personally, I was willing to cut him slack because of his mom and I think in another year with a full roster, he might have just taken a leave of absence.   But it wasn't possible.

There is almost always turnover when a new coach comes in.   It just usually happens sooner.   When Buzz took over for Crean, Scott and Trevor left.   Part of life, I accept it.    Where Buzz had it over Wojo is that he had a whole lot of contacts in the JUCO world where he could sign kids who were ready immediately.   Wojo doesn't have that network and doesn't want to go that way.   He wants to go the Duke way.   Fine.  He is the coach and I accept that.   The normal coaching change turnover, combined with Wojo sticking resolutely to his plan means that MU is shorthanded.    A couple of more things go wrong, this season could get ugly.  


Chill, accept, look for signs of growth from those who remain.  

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
I have to tell it like it is.

I am deeply disappointed in Coach Wojo right now. Common Sense was not used at all this year in his treatment of either Deonte or John. Deonte was a kid who had a solid first season, was a pillar of our future plans and by all accounts was a good student and kid. His mother passes away two days before the start of the season. So obviously the young man is stressed at a very vulnerable point in his life. Why throw fuel on the fire and demote him. Just doesn't make sense and unnecessarily created additional stress for the kid. He could of easily been given 21-22 minutes and he would have been fine with the message of you earn more with D. Wojo had to understand how tight this group of young men are. They treat each other like brothers. He has messed up the family.

Wasting a year of Johns eligibility was not the right thing to do either. He should have been upfront and honest with that kid.

I think Wojo is a very inexperienced guy. I listen to some of his hyperbole and it tells me that. Today's actions tell me there are going to be a lot of growing pains with him.

The Sun will rise again tomorrow. Kids don't always understand and it is the coaches duty to be there for them through the tough times.

I don't believe student athletes are fungible.

How exactly do you demote a kid in October, before any games are played?
Or do you think he was demoted from backup who played 12.6 minutes per game last year to a backup who played 16.1 minutes per game this year?

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 09, 2014, 08:29:14 PM
I was fine when you started out "telling like it is" which indicates a brutal truth is about to be delivered.

Then you basically stated that Wojo was dishonest with John Dawson and Wojo wasted a year of his eligibility.  So you have first hand knowledge of him being dishonest with Dawson?

That's exactly what I don't understand with posts like this and Ners crap.  They insinuate that they know things, but what they are pushing is pure conjecture without a shred of evidence.  I'm glad that they both bought the mat that Tom Symkowski was trying to sell in Office Space, but shouldn't arguments like that be called what they are?  

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/285298921.html

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 08:34:51 PM
How exactly do you demote a kid in October, before any games are played?
Or do you think he was demoted from backup who played 12.6 minutes per game last year to a backup who played 16.1 minutes per game this year?

This.

I think its kind of disturbing that he thinks that Wojo should have given him 5 or 6 extra minutes per game because his mother died.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 08:40:28 PM

This.

I think its kind of disturbing that he thinks that Wojo should have given him 5 or 6 extra minutes per game because his mother died.

What a douchey post.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 09, 2014, 08:36:13 PM
That's exactly what I don't understand with posts like this and Ners crap.  They insinuate that they know things, but what they are pushing is pure conjecture without a shred of evidence.  I'm glad that they both bought the mat that Tom Symkowski was trying to sell in Office Space, but shouldn't arguments like that be called what they are?  

Obscure, but well played.   

Wow.  Eight games in, and we already have someone accusing our coach of being an unethical liar.

Could be a new Scoop low.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 09, 2014, 08:42:50 PM
What a douchey post.

That's exactly what he said...

"His mother passes away two days before the start of the season. So obviously the young man is stressed at a very vulnerable point in his life. Why throw fuel on the fire and demote him. Just doesn't make sense and unnecessarily created additional stress for the kid. He could of easily been given 21-22 minutes..."

Since he was getting 16 mpg, that means he thinks he should have gotten 5 or 6 extra minutes because he was stressed because his mother died.

Not hard to interpret what he said if you have some reading comprehension and deductive skills.  (Granted, not sure you have either.)

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 09, 2014, 08:36:13 PM
That's exactly what I don't understand with posts like this and Ners crap.  They insinuate that they know things, but what they are pushing is pure conjecture without a shred of evidence.  I'm glad that they both bought the mat that Tom Symkowski was trying to sell in Office Space, but shouldn't arguments like that be called what they are?  

I wasn't going out on a limb when I said Wojo essentially was encouraging a transfer with regard to Dawson.  It was obvious that's what was going on - and to think otherwise is to be incredibly naive with regard to how high major coaches operate.   Hell Wojo in the Journal told Matt V he "wasn't surprised by the transfers."  

I agree with Western that it was pretty amateur of Wojo to essentially burn a year of Dawson's eligibility by having played him 4 minutes this season given that it became clear Wojo wasn't high on him as a player.  There were NO character/attitude/effort problems with John, and when it boils down to it, Buzz played Dawson meaningful minutes last season, and chose to play him ahead of JJJ.

If you are Dawson, would you too not be inclined to want to see what you can do elsewhere - given that you showed some ability to compete at this level as a freshman?  Combine that with the fact that the veteran you have sat behind for 1 year and now this first semester has had their fair share of struggles/limited production?

As for Deonte - Though his minutes increased by 4 per game, given the complexion of the current roster, I have NO doubt he would have anticipated a bigger role.  Have no doubt Wojo was trying to coax out of Deonte a more well rounded game, yet feel he almost in some ways coached Deonte out of what he did/does best:  Attack, attack, attack.  Would have liked to have seen Wojo give Deonte more time this season, as the talent is absolutely there, and feel that eventually would have been rewarded.  Instead, Deonte became frustrated and felt it best to move on.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 08:46:11 PM
I wasn't going out on a limb when I said Wojo essentially was encouraging a transfer with regard to Dawson.  It was obvious that's what was going on - and to think otherwise is to be incredibly naive with regard to how high major coaches operate.   Hell Wojo in the Journal told Matt V he "wasn't surprised by the transfers."  

I agree with Western that it was pretty amateur of Wojo to essentially burn a year of Dawson's eligibility by having played him 4 minutes this season given that it became clear Wojo wasn't high on him as a player.  There were NO character/attitude/effort problems with John, and when it boils down to it, Buzz played Dawson meaningful minutes last season, and chose to play him ahead of JJJ.

If you are Dawson, would you too not be inclined to want to see what you can do elsewhere - given that you showed some ability to compete at this level as a freshman?  Combine that with the fact that the veteran you have sat behind for 1 year and now this first semester has had their fair share of struggles/limited production?

So my question to you is:  would you label above is the brutal truth or would you label it what your guess is what happened?

Big difference.  One suggests undeniable truth the other suggests a person's opinion on a matter.

All I will say is everyone seems to feel like don't worry, help is on the way.  Well 6 months ago everyone seemed to think help was nailed to the bench by Buzz.  And while I agree help is on the way, 3 of them are your standard fare Top 100s (we've played that game) and 1 is a guy who may not be here by May 2016.  I was most excited about Henry because it looked like he would be joining an incredibly talented line-up:

PG: Duane
SG: JJJ
SF: Deonte
C: Luke

Obviously only 1 of those guys is gone and Duane looks the part but I am concerned about JJJ and Luke is an unknown.  I just don't want Henry to be our Larry Hughes.  If we get a Top 5 player, I would like to do some damage with him.

Good post Texas Western.

It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't have the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

I believe in Wojo because the opposite -- believing, just 8 games into his Marquette career, that we made a catastrophic hire -- will only make me miserable. And for what? It's not like Wojo is going anywhere anytime soon.

I am a positive person. I also am pretty patient in a situation like the one Wojo walked into.

He has done a good job coaching the team in games -- not great, but I wouldn't have expected great yet.

He has done a great job recruiting -- far exceeding just about anybody's expectations.

I refuse to look at these transfers as an indictment of him or his program. He's barely begun.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 09, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

Amen wadesworld.  This thread and the post that started it is so a--anine it's not worth dignifying with a response.

Deonte and John were not recruited by Wojo. Not his type of playa. Nothin' wrong with that. Happens all the time in private industry. New boss comes in, changes are made, and heads roll. Nothin' to see here. Sun comes up tomorrow, next man up.

To indict Wojo for these guys leaving is beyond ridiculous.  

Quote from: wadesworld on December 09, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

No kidding. There has been some stupid sh*t posted here, but that first post might top the list.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 09, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't have the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

Yep.

Quote from: duanewade on December 09, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
Good post Texas Western.

And there's the biggest indictment of TW's post yet...

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 09, 2014, 08:48:51 PM
So my question to you is:  would you label above is the brutal truth or would you label it what your guess is what happened?

Big difference.  One suggests undeniable truth the other suggests a person's opinion on a matter.

It is brutal truth.

Remember the transfer rumors if Buzz had stayed?    Transfers happen, especially with a new coach.    Talk to me about wojo in 4 years and 25 games.    (The one thing Chico ever said that makes sense.  ;))

Quote from: wadesworld on December 09, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't have the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

Having two high end D-1 kids I  have a lot of real time experience in the way college athletics works. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 08:56:06 PM
It is brutal truth.

Good to know you are one of the insiders of the program.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 09, 2014, 08:51:19 PM
It is 100%, entirely, clearly evident that some people here just don't have the slightest understanding of how division 1 college athletics work.  And stupid threads are started as a result of this.

Can you give the board - or at least Texas Western - a better idea of how Division 1 college athletics work, and what your qualifications are with regard to experience working or playing within Division 1 athletics?

I'm curious to know also if you feel this was an encouraged transfer with regard to Dawson given your understanding of D-1 College athletics?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 08:56:06 PM
It is brutal truth.

Neither you nor Texas Western know that.  You are both basically insinuating that Wojo is a liar, unethical, and not worthy of coaching at Marquette.  

Just say that if that's what you believe.

Some people respond positively to adversity others do not. Wojo wants players who will learn and grow when the going gets tough. Then there are situations in life that no matter what you do your not going to make it because you just don't have the skill set to succeed at a level your coach, professor or boss expect and it is time to move on. Hard lessons.

I've heard John was nailed to the bench because everyone realized John was leaving and the thought was it would be better for John if all he had on his record was those 4 minutes.  The hope is those can be forgiven.  It was Wojo helping John, because let's face it, he could have used him a few times.  I think we have a very fair and decent coach in Wojo.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 08:58:52 PM
Can you give the board - or at least Texas Western - a better idea of how Division 1 college athletics work, and what your qualifications are with regard to experience working or playing within Division 1 athletics?

I'm curious to know also if you feel this was an encouraged transfer with regard to Dawson given your understanding of D-1 College athletics?

Wadesworld is the most knowledgeable poster around. He knows everything about everything, just ask him and he'll tell you. I think he's one of the great minds of our time  ::)

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:00:02 PM

Neither you nor Texas Western know that.  You are both basically insinuating that Wojo is a liar, unethical, and not worthy of coaching at Marquette.  

Just say that if that's what you believe.

I never said that. I said he is inexperienced, we are going to go through growing pains as a result of not only the players inexperience but also his. Since he is older and more experience my disappointment lies with him and not the players.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:00:02 PM

Neither you nor Texas Western know that.  You are both basically insinuating that Wojo is a liar, unethical, and not worthy of coaching at Marquette.  

Just say that if that's what you believe.

I'm not saying Wojo isn't worthy of coaching at Marquette - nor am I calling him a liar or unethical - or at least no more "unethical" than 90% of high major basketball and football coaches.  Encouraged transfers happen frequently.  However, there are better ways to handle it, than how it was done this time around.

As for calling out a few of the other posters here, you may want to back off as there are a number of posters here who are directly connected (as family) to the kids on the team...as in still on the team...and now off of the team.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 09, 2014, 08:53:33 PM
Deonte and John were not recruited by Wojo. Not his type of playa. Nothin' wrong with that. Happens all the time in private industry. New boss comes in, changes are made, and heads roll. Nothin' to see here. Sun comes up tomorrow, next man up.

Bingo.

Quote from: The Lens on December 09, 2014, 09:04:22 PM
I've heard John was nailed to the bench because everyone realized John was leaving and the thought was it would be better for John if all he had on his record was those 4 minutes.  The hope is those can be forgiven.  It was Wojo helping John, because let's face it, he could have used him a few times.  I think we have a very fair and decent coach in Wojo.

I do think this is the case. There are several instances where he could have helped. Nebraska-Omaha comes to mind, but I think Wojo did this as a favor to John. He must have known somethings was going to happen in terms of transferring. Coaches are never completely out of the loop.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:06:14 PM
I'm not saying Wojo isn't worthy of coaching at Marquette - nor am I calling him a liar or unethical - or at least no more "unethical" than 90% of high major basketball and football coaches.  Encouraged transfers happen frequently.  However, there are better ways to handle it, than how it was done this time around.

How do you know how it was handled?  How do you know it was handled inappropriately?

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 09, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
Wadesworld is the most knowledgeable poster around. He knows everything about everything, just ask him and he'll tell you. I think he's one of the great minds of our time  ::)

Your words kid.

Quote from: The Lens on December 09, 2014, 09:04:22 PM
I've heard John was nailed to the bench because everyone realized John was leaving and the thought was it would be better for John if all he had on his record was those 4 minutes.  The hope is those can be forgiven.  It was Wojo helping John, because let's face it, he could have used him a few times.  I think we have a very fair and decent coach in Wojo.

That is not true.  Dawson wanted to be at MU.  And would still be at MU if he'd been given more playing time.  Period.  End of story.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:08:30 PM
That is not true.  Dawson wanted to be at MU.  And would still be at MU if he'd been given more playing time.  Period.  End of story.

So he wanted to be at MU but only if he got playing time. No fucking crap.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:08:16 PM

How do you know how it was handled?  How do you know it was handled inappropriately?

Come on Sultan - after all of the recent discussion of revealing sources and such - and your personal policy on not revealing sources - I can't lay it all out there anymore than I already have.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 08:46:11 PM
As for Deonte - Though his minutes increased by 4 per game, given the complexion of the current roster, I have NO doubt he would have anticipated a bigger role.  Have no doubt Wojo was trying to coax out of Deonte a more well rounded game, yet feel he almost in some ways coached Deonte out of what he did/does best:  Attack, attack, attack.  Would have liked to have seen Wojo give Deonte more time this season, as the talent is absolutely there, and feel that eventually would have been rewarded.  Instead, Deonte became frustrated and felt it best to move on.

Here's the issue with this. We're only 8 games into the season. There's still 22 games to go.  

Deonte was getting consistent minutes. As much as he would have like, obviously not. However, the opportunity was there.

A lot can change between early December and the end of the season. With more production, time in the system, and better understanding of what Wojo is looking for, Deonte could have seen his minutes and role increase. Again that opportunity was there. Instead, he chose to move on. I think you can question whether or not he gave MU and Wojo a fair shot.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:08:30 PM
That is not true.  Dawson wanted to be at MU.  And would still be at MU if he'd been given more playing time.  Period.  End of story.

I can verify this is true.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:08:30 PM
That is not true.  Dawson wanted to be at MU.  And would still be at MU if he'd been given earned more playing time.  Period.  End of story.

FTFY.

Quote from: murara1994 on December 09, 2014, 09:09:57 PM
So he wanted to be at MU but only if he got playing time. No unnatural carnal knowledgeing crap.

Go read the post I was responding to jack ass.  Poster was wrongly speculating that Dawson was planning to transfer 1 game into the season after getting 4 minutes of time against TN Martin.  That was not the case.  

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 08:58:12 PM
Having two high end D-1 kids I  have a lot of real time experience in the way college athletics works. 

Can we get back to the part about how Deonte was demoted a month before any games were played? And how said demotion involved him playing about 30 percent more MPG than he did a year ago?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:12:29 PM
Go read the post I was responding to jack ass.  Poster was wrongly speculating that Dawson was planning to transfer 1 game into the season after getting 4 minutes of time against TN Martin.  That was not the case.  

Go F YOURSELF

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 08:58:12 PM
Having two high end D-1 kids I  have a lot of real time experience in the way college athletics works. 

"Having," as in the biblical sense?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 09:12:08 PM
FTFY.

If you want to go down that road, go look at the game numbers for some of the guys who were getting PT.  They weren't exactly lighting the hardwood on fire.  At what point do you need to produce on the floor during games to continue to "earn" that playing time???

Whether that is Derrick, JJJ, Cohen...but all got opportunity.  When you can't get any opportunity whatsoever to show what you can do in games, what the hell is the point in sticking around.  YOu may not like Dawson as a player, which is totally fine, but he certainly wasn't totally and completely overmatched as a freshman playing in the Big East.  He'll only get better.  The fundamentals are there for him to be a very good player.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:15:35 PM
"Having," as in the biblical sense?

Let me restate. My biological children are D-1 athletes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:10:47 PM
Come on Sultan - after all of the recent discussion of revealing sources and such - and your personal policy on not revealing sources - I can't lay it all out there anymore than I already have.

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:05:40 PM
I never said that. I said he is inexperienced, we are going to go through growing pains as a result of not only the players inexperience but also his. Since he is older and more experience my disappointment lies with him and not the players.

You said "He should have been upfront and honest with [John]."  That's saying he wasn't honest - calling him a liar.  Stop backpeddling and take the critique of your words.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:15:48 PM
If you want to go down that road, go look at the game numbers for some of the guys who were getting PT.  They weren't exactly lighting the hardwood on fire.  At what point do you need to produce on the floor during games to continue to "earn" that playing time???

Whether that is Derrick, JJJ, Cohen...but all got opportunity.  When you can't get any opportunity whatsoever to show what you can do in games, what the hell is the point in sticking around.  YOu may not like Dawson as a player, which is totally fine, but he certainly wasn't totally and completely overmatched as a freshman playing in the Big East.  He'll only get better.  The fundamentals are there for him to be a very good player.

Never mind that two coaches have planted him to the bench. He's not a high major player.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
Can we get back to the part about how Deonte was demoted a month before any games were played? And how said demotion involved him playing about 30 percent more MPG than he did a year ago?

The expectation that Deonte realistically had was that he was going to be a major factor on the team.  It is all related to management of expectations. I believe that is an important part of coaching.

I felt that those expectations could have been bridged in a more effective way for Deonte and frankly for the team.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:15:48 PM
If you want to go down that road, go look at the game numbers for some of the guys who were getting PT.  They weren't exactly lighting the hardwood on fire.  At what point do you need to produce on the floor during games to continue to "earn" that playing time???

We've been through the numbers a million times already here. Without yet another tired rehash, we all know they're not nearly as disparate as you insinuate, and in many ways they make the case for DW over Dawson.

That said, to take you position here, you have to believe that two very competitive high-major college basketball coaches are intentionally sabotaging their team's chances of success by sitting the guy everybody knows is superior. And for what reason exactly? To spite Dawson, who by all accounts is a good, well-liked kid?
This, to you, is more logical than simply "The coaches don't think Dawson is the best option?"

Quote from: murara1994 on December 09, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
Go F YOURSELF

LOL.  That's great.  Sensitive much?  Follow the thread, and you won't need to look like an idiot that needs to have his sarcasm set straight.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 09, 2014, 09:20:59 PM
You said "He should have been upfront and honest with [John]."  That's saying he wasn't honest - calling him a liar.  Stop backpeddling and take the critique of your words.

In this case, I felt he could have let John prior to the season. When Todd left he was short handed and needed a safety valve on the bench. I just dont think you treat kids that way.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:21:19 PM
The expectation that Deonte realistically had was that he was going to be a major factor on the team.  It is all related to management of expectations. I believe that is an important part of coaching.

I felt that those expectations could have been bridged in a more effective way for Deonte and frankly for the team.

OK, again, do you know what was said to Deonte and Dawson?  (I'm not asking *how* you know...)

I mean if you do, and that he wasn't communicative in the meantime, then I would be inclined to agree with your disappointment.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
LOL.  That's great.  Sensitive much?  Follow the thread, and you won't need to look like an idiot that needs to have his sarcasm set straight.

it is great. You are a tool.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 09:21:49 PM
We've been through the numbers a million times already here. Without yet another tired rehash, we all know they're not nearly as disparate as you insinuate, and in many ways they make the case for DW over Dawson.

That said, to take you position here, you have to believe that two very competitive high-major college basketball coaches are intentionally sabotaging their team's chances of success by sitting the guy everybody knows is superior. And for what reason exactly? To spite Dawson, who by all accounts is a good, well-liked kid?
This, to you, is more logical than simply "The coaches don't think Dawson is the best option?"

Ding Ding Ding. Pretty much sums it up.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:24:04 PM
In this case, I felt he could have let John prior to the season. When Todd left he was short handed and needed a safety valve on the bench. I just dont think you treat kids that way.

So he knew exactly what he had before the season even started?  Really?  

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:21:19 PM
The expectation that Deonte realistically had was that he was going to be a major factor on the team.  It is all related to management of expectations. I believe that is an important part of coaching.

I felt that those expectations could have been bridged in a more effective way for Deonte and frankly for the team.

Wojo "demoted" Deonte by not giving him the minutes he expected? That's your explanation?
Here's what we know .... Deonte was getting more playing time this year than last despite not showing any improvement or growth in his game (shooting percentage down, 3-pt percentage down, rebounding down, assists down, turnovers up, fouls up, still lost on D).
But your position is that he should have been given even more playing time - screw playing the more productive guys - because, in your mind, he expected it?

Quote from: murara1994 on December 09, 2014, 09:26:01 PM
it is great. You are a tool.

A review of your posts illustrates you have NO business calling anyone a tool. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:25:11 PM

OK, again, do you know what was said to Deonte and Dawson?  (I'm not asking *how* you know...)

I mean if you do, and that he wasn't communicative in the meantime, then I would be inclined to agree with your disappointment.

Yes I do know. That is why I am disappointed. I have been in plenty of meetings with Athletic staff and parents over the years and the phrase they always use is they are there "In Loco Parentis". I truly believe these two kids were let down in that regard.

Deonte is an exceptionally hard working kid. As high a quality kid as any on the team.

The team will rally and get over it, but I think  a more experienced coach would have been able to make his way through the season with these two kids.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
Yes I do know. That is why I am disappointed. I have been in plenty of meetings with Athletic staff and parents over the years and the phrase they always use is they are there "In Loco Parentis". I truly believe these two kids were let down in that regard.

So what did he say to them?  We're you in the room at the time?  Not asking for any "source," but if it's "someone old me that Wojo told John," then you don't know more than the rest of us.  If you were in the room and heard it, that's very different.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 09:29:23 PM
Wojo "demoted" Deonte by not giving him the minutes he expected? That's your explanation?
Here's what we know .... Deonte was getting more playing time this year than last despite not showing any improvement or growth in his game (shooting percentage down, 3-pt percentage down, rebounding down, assists down, turnovers up, fouls up, still lost on D).
But your position is that he should have been given even more playing time - screw playing the more productive guys - because, in your mind, he expected it?

This team is 4-4.  Let's not act like it's full of guys more deserving.

THE TEAM WAS SO BAD DEFENSIVELY WOJO WENT TO A ZONE.

A player like Deonte is different from Ners argument regarding Dawson.  I think Burton should have gotten a good 8-10 run in the first half and adjust his playing time the remainder of the game based on how the shots are falling.  He's not much different in that regard to Carlino - a poor shot selection, poor defensive player who CAN fill up the stat sheet.  If Deonte looked lost in that initial stretch then definitely limit his minutes, but if he's on and making plays like he's capable of then let him do what he does best and contribute offensively.

JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan all have bricked their share of bunnies while non have looked any better than average defending this season.  If you have a talented, yet inconsistant scoring threat I think it's in the best interest of the team to make sure he's given a chance to get into a groove.

Burton's minutes could have been handled better even if his overall minute total wasn't that drastically different.

Quote from: duanewade on December 09, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
Good post Texas Western.

The kiss of death.....when you get the approval from DuaneWade you need to reconsider your position.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 09, 2014, 09:29:23 PM
Wojo "demoted" Deonte by not giving him the minutes he expected? That's your explanation?
Here's what we know .... Deonte was getting more playing time this year than last despite not showing any improvement or growth in his game (shooting percentage down, 3-pt percentage down, rebounding down, assists down, turnovers up, fouls up, still lost on D).
But your position is that he should have been given even more playing time - screw playing the more productive guys - because, in your mind, he expected it?

First I don't think there were more productive guys. Yes some guys had some moments. But no one consistently solid. The only thing limiting his time should have been fouls. I think anytime you reduce the role of a kid who was built up to be a star it is going to be difficult, through in a death of a parent and it becomes flammable. That is what happened here.

It is easy for us to say if he would have been patient and earned his time etc. It just wasnt managed well given the specifics.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 09, 2014, 09:40:02 PM
This team is 4-4.  Let's not act like it's full of guys more deserving.

THE TEAM WAS SO BAD DEFENSIVELY WOJO WENT TO A ZONE.

A player like Deonte is different from Ners argument regarding Dawson.  I think Burton should have gotten a good 8-10 run in the first half and adjust his playing time the remainder of the game based on how the shots are falling.  He's not much different in that regard to Carlino - a poor shot selection, poor defensive player who CAN fill up the stat sheet.  If Deonte looked lost in that initial stretch then definitely limit his minutes, but if he's on and making plays like he's capable of then let him do what he does best and contribute offensively.

JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan all have bricked their share of bunnies while non have looked any better than average defending this season.  If you have a talented, yet inconsistant scoring threat I think it's in the best interest of the team to make sure he's given a chance to get into a groove.

Burton's minutes could have been handled better even if his overall minute total wasn't that drastically different.

You have stated my view regarding Burton very well.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
Deonte is an exceptionally hard working kid. As high a quality kid as any on the team.

Good kid, but "exceptionally hard working" has never been used to describe him in basketball terms.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
Yes I do know. That is why I am disappointed. I have been in plenty of meetings with Athletic staff and parents over the years and the phrase they always use is they are there "In Loco Parentis". I truly believe these two kids were let down in that regard.

Deonte is an exceptionally hard working kid. As high a quality kid as any on the team.

The team will rally and get over it, but I think  a more experienced coach would have been able to make his way through the season with these two kids.

ok...then let's say he/wojo placates deonte and dawson this year by throwing them just enough bones to keep them around for this year.  then next year he pulls the rug out and...?  you would feel much better about wojo then?  just wondering

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:21:19 PM
The expectation that Deonte realistically had was that he was going to be a major factor on the team.  It is all related to management of expectations. I believe that is an important part of coaching.

I felt that those expectations could have been bridged in a more effective way for Deonte and frankly for the team.

On the one hand, plenty of people (including ESPN) labelled Deonte as a potential breakout candidate/star this season. But, this was almost exclusively based on his offensive potential. The reality seemed to be, though, that Buzz limited Deonte somewhat last year based on his defensive liabilities. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that Wojo (a floor-slapping defender), placed even greater emphasis on defense, especially when he seems to have more offensive weapons (I use that lightly) this year than Buzz had last year.

So, with all the talk about Deonte being a potential breakout player, I can definitely imagine him anticipating a bigger role. But, if his new coach emphasizes defense and Deonte doesn't seem to improve his defense, well, I'm not surprised that he didn't get more time. Add on to that that his performance and attention may understandably have been impacted by his mother's death.

So, for me, I can see why it wasn't working out from Wojo's perspective and I can see that Deonte could easily be frustrated and wants to look for greener pastures.

Best wishes to both Deonte and John.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 09:33:06 PM
A review of your posts illustrates you have NO business calling anyone a tool. 

LOLOL. A review of your posts reveals possible dimentia.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:34:00 PM
Yes I do know. That is why I am disappointed. I have been in plenty of meetings with Athletic staff and parents over the years and the phrase they always use is they are there "In Loco Parentis". I truly believe these two kids were let down in that regard.

Deonte is an exceptionally hard working kid. As high a quality kid as any on the team.

The team will rally and get over it, but I think  a more experienced coach would have been able to make his way through the season with these two kids.

Well if you truly do know, then I can see why you would be disappointed.

I mean it is interesting when you go back to when he had his press conference and turned around to the players.  It was a nice moment at the time, but I wonder if he knew exactly what his words meant at the time.  Would he do it differently now?

Quote from: murara1994 on December 09, 2014, 09:45:49 PM
LOLOL. A review of your posts reveals possible dimentia.

A review of this post reveals if you are going to try to talk smack, at least know how to spell the freaking word:  D-E-M-E-N-T-I-A

You are good at throwing out insults to a lot of posters in your 69 posts here.  Hurled a bunch of nice "names" at people in a very limited post history. 

Carry on. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:18:35 PM

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

Of course he won't answer this simple yes or no question.  Because it's obvious.  He is fine with insinuating that he has knowledge but when called out, he fades back into the bushes and moves on to the next post that he can vaguely answer and push his agenda.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 08:55:26 PM
Yep.


And there's the biggest indictment of TW's post yet...

Just started reading the thread - got to your post and it is exactly was I was going to say.

But then, I think that TW, duanewade and Wojosmojo are one and the same.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:18:35 PM

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

Yes.  They believe the transfers could have been avoided fairly easily with better communication, along with a bit more playing time.  

Listen to Western.  He knows his stuff.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 09, 2014, 10:27:40 PM
Of course he won't answer this simple yes or no question.  Because it's obvious.  He is fine with insinuating that he has knowledge but when called out, he fades back into the bushes and moves on to the next post that he can vaguely answer and push his agenda.

Happy now??  The next time you contribute any inside information will be your first.  Until then please keep your snide remarks to yourself.

You guys can pick at Tex's posts on this thread and mutate what the intent of the original post all you want to make yourselves feel better but this is on Wojo. It's simply poor management by an inexperienced head coach and two high quality kids are out the door. I hope he learns from it and I wish both John and Deonte all the best as they move forward. It didn't have to go down like this.

Quote from: Chip Chipman on December 09, 2014, 10:34:55 PM
I hope he learns from it and I wish both John and Deonte all the best as they move forward. It didn't have to go down like this.

You're right, it didn't. They could have stuck it out and earned their minutes in practice. Especially Deonte.

Don't make decisions based on where you are in life, make them on where you're going. Your biography is not your destiny, your decisions are

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 10:34:45 PM
Yes.  They believe the transfers could have been avoided fairly easily with better communication, along with a bit more playing time.  

Listen to Western.  He knows his stuff.

Happy now??  The next time you contribute any inside information will be your first.  Until then please keep your snide remarks to yourself.

Because that's what this place is all about.

You really need to get over yourself.  Literally, no one cares.

Quote from: MUfan12 on December 09, 2014, 10:37:16 PM
You're right, it didn't. They could have stuck it out and earned their minutes in practice. Especially Deonte.

+1

I was appalled watching him play 'D' the last two games. Never saw a major college player have his hands down by his side that much.

He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

Quote from: brandx on December 09, 2014, 10:41:40 PM
He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

And that was communicated to him. Not only on defense, but rebounding, an area that could have won him major minutes. Deonte wasn't receptive to it, so he decided to leave. Wojo isn't dumb, he knows the natural ability is there. He just couldn't get through to him.

Quote from: brandx on December 09, 2014, 10:41:40 PM
+1

I was appalled watching him play 'D' the last two games. Never saw a major college player have his hands down by his side that much.

He was a favorite of mine, but there was no way he was going to get more minutes until he changed his game.

Serious question:  How can you find Deonte's D so appalling, and justify it as a reason for him not to play, yet support Derrick playing when his O Game as a SENIOR is still down right appalling?  And not just playing, but playing 30-35 per game?  You really think Burton couldn't hold down that forward spot on the Zone D similarly well as Derrick, yet not be a MAJOR upgrade at the other end?  Deonte wasn't a good on ball, man to man defender, but showed very good passing lane and ball instincts -both of which have great value in a zone.  

Not trying to hate on Derrick here - but instead ask a legitimate question - why is it okay for one guy to have major deficiencies on one end of the floor, and play max minutes, but not okay for another guy?

This thread is hilariously outrageous. These kids expected more time and Wojo should've given it to them to placate them? Listen to yourselves. It is laughable.

These things happen especially when you have a coaching change. They were not Wojos recruits and for better or worse they couldn't earn the playing time they wanted. Burton was a disaster thus far in his limited time and statistics demonstrate that Dawson was not up to snuff last year despite the "eye test" opinions of certain resident experts. They have a right to leave, but let's not pretend like we lost the two best players on the teams, regardless of preseason hype and fanciful wishes. I would have loved to see them stick it out and earn their place, but I completely respect their decisions and wish them the best.

As an aside it would be great if people stopped quoting Ners who, by his own stroke of genius in playing the martyr to leave this board through his own self-indulgent poll, crowned himself as the least credible regular poster I have ever come across in any community when he reneged on his own promise to leave. Anything the guy says is now worth nothing.

Ners, I'm as disappointed as anyone that Deonte is leaving and I would have liked to see him get more playing time BUT don't turn this into Deonte vs Derrick.  For some reason this team seems to play better when Derrick is in the game EVEN THOUGH Derrick's stats wouldn't indicate that he is making a contribution.  I don't particularly like it because I'd like to exchange Derrick for a better offensive player but if you watch the games the times Derrick is out the rest of the guys don't play as well.  Deonte minutes would have needed to come from Juan or however is playing the 4.

Good point Ners, although I don't want to take this thread down well treaded waters.

This is not a good defensive team.  For Wojo to switch to a zone essentially meant that almost to a man, this roster didn't have players capable of playing man defense to his standards.

This is also not a good offensive team.  Carlino is a scoring threat, but if Jamil Wilson gave you headaches with his inconsistency than Carlino must give you nightmares watching his ill advised shots.  Our only other somewhat consistent shooter is Duane Wilson.  Deonte Burton potentially could have been our most talented offensive player had he gotten himself on track.

While this is not the ideal attitude you'd dream for college kids to have, Burton seems like the more court time he has the more impactful on both ends of the floor he could become.  Having spent 15+ years training and managing sales teams, some of the most talented individuals needed extra attention the first 5-7 days of a month to ensure their early momentum carried them through, or more importantly that a poor start didn't derail their mental state taking away from their natural ability.

I hope Wojo truly learns from this because managing individuals is hard, especially in a competitive environment.  He may be a great recruiter and x's and o's coach, but it's handling the nuances in these types of situations that make coach's great.

Quote from: MUCam on December 09, 2014, 11:06:24 PM
This thread is hilariously outrageous. These kids expected more time and Wojo should've given it to them to placate them? Listen to yourselves. It is laughable.

Not only that, but the fact that they weren't getting minutes with 9 players dressed should be a giant sign they weren't good enough to beat out the guys in front of them.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 10:49:16 PM
Serious question:  How can you find Deonte's D so appalling, and justify it as a reason for him not to play, yet support Derrick playing when his O Game as a SENIOR is still down right appalling?  And not just playing, but playing 30-35 per game?  You really think Burton couldn't hold down that forward spot on the Zone D similarly well as Derrick, yet not be a MAJOR upgrade at the other end?  Deonte wasn't a good on ball, man to man defender, but showed very good passing lane and ball instincts -both of which have great value in a zone.  

Not trying to hate on Derrick here - but instead ask a legitimate question - why is it okay for one guy to have major deficiencies on one end of the floor, and play max minutes, but not okay for another guy?

First off, I have not been a big supporter of Derrick. But I will answer the question anyway.

Derrick's offense can be appalling at times because he doesn't possess some of the skills we would like to see. Rebounding and defense are "effort" skills. Deonte leaving his hands at his sides on defense is inexcusable regardless of his ability.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 09, 2014, 11:14:54 PM
Good point Ners, although I don't want to take this thread down well treaded waters.

This is not a good defensive team.  For Wojo to switch to a zone essentially meant that almost to a man, this roster didn't have players capable of playing man defense to his standards.

This is also not a good offensive team.  Carlino is a scoring threat, but if Jamil Wilson gave you headaches with his inconsistency than Carlino must give you nightmares watching his ill advised shots.  Our only other somewhat consistent shooter is Duane Wilson.  Deonte Burton potentially could have been our most talented offensive player had he gotten himself on track.

While this is not the ideal attitude you'd dream for college kids to have, Burton seems like the more court time he has the more impactful on both ends of the floor he could become.  Having spent 15+ years training and managing sales teams, some of the most talented individuals needed extra attention the first 5-7 days of a month to ensure their early momentum carried them through, or more importantly that a poor start didn't derail their mental state taking away from their natural ability.

I hope Wojo truly learns from this because managing individuals is hard, especially in a competitive environment.  He may be a great recruiter and x's and o's coach, but it's handling the nuances in these types of situations that make coach's great.

Well said Matty - as are all of your posts.

As Wojo said the JSOnline article:
When asked about Burton following Marquette's loss to Ohio State and ahead of its game against Nebraska-Omaha, Wojciechowski implied that Burton wasn't seeing more playing time because his contributions were one-dimensional.

"He's a guy who can score," Wojciechowski said on November 21. "He's got to continue to contribute in other ways, too, in terms of rebounding and defense."

Quote from: MUfan12 on December 09, 2014, 10:45:33 PM
And that was communicated to him. Not only on defense, but rebounding, an area that could have won him major minutes. Deonte wasn't receptive to it, so he decided to leave. Wojo isn't dumb, he knows the natural ability is there. He just couldn't get through to him.

Do you really believe Deonte "wasn't receptive" to Wojo's coaching?  And if Wojo wasn't able to get through to him, is that more on Deonte or Wojo?  I will say Deonte's playing time was pretty choppy this season, and it is hard to get into a rhythm, flow, and produce consistent results when you have very inconsistent playing time. 

I would have liked to see Wojo give him more minutes to see if some of the rebounding would have come with more PT.  Deonte may not have the fundamental defensive skills you may like in a player, but he was a defensive playmaker - he was disruptive.  The potential was there.  In my view, I'd have liked for Wojo to figure out how to make it work with Deonte, because the kid is a major talent.

Wow, this escalated quickly.

1) Best wishes to both John and Deonte. I hope they find what they are looking for at their next program.

2) "Encouraged transfers" do happen. But not in the way that Ners and others are implying. I have worked at two different D1 universities, one D2 university, and interned at another D1 university. I work with college basketball players, staff, and coaches every day and benching a kid who deserves to force him to transfer hasn't happened ONCE in my years of experience. It is extremely unethical and could kill your reputation on the recruiting scene.  What does happen, is coaches will have blunt conversations with players and tell them "unless you improve drastically, you will not get any playing time on this team. If playing time is your priority, you probably should transfer." In rarer cases, a coach may say "your scholarship will not be renewed next season because I need it for a better." This isn't very common in my experience. Some view it as unethical, I personally do not. Your scholarship is earned on the basketball court, if you can't perform and someone else can....

3) I have only had brief conversation with Wojo but my instincts, as well as everyone I talk to, lead me to believe that he is a genuine, ethical, upstanding human being. The fact that Wojo played John those four minutes against UT Martin leads me to believe that he wasn't planning on Dawson transferring. If he was truly "nailing Dawson to the bench" he wouldn't have done that. It would take a supremely terrible human being to do that to a kid. A much more likely scenario is that Dawson wasn't good enough to earn playing time in close game (e.g. all of our games since UT Martin) but was going to get playing time in garbage time scenarios with the possibility that he could earn more time in practice or next season.

4) No coach, ANYWHERE, will play a kid more minutes just to keep him from transferring. The moment a coach does this, he has lost control of his team. Playing time is earned, not given. This is coaching 101. If a player says give more playing time or I walk and he won't listen to reason, any coach worth his salt will say "there's the door." If Deonte and John really left because they weren't willing to work for their playing time, then bravo to Wojo for standing tall.

5) No player is bigger than the team. The coach should always do what is best for the program. (Except in cases of ethics)

6) Try to enjoy the process. The future is bright!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 11:36:38 PM
Well said Matty - as are all of your posts.

Major failure on the coach....you find a way to make it work. You don't do this or allow this to happen now.

But he will rebound I persume...

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 11:46:26 PM
Do you really believe Deonte "wasn't receptive" to Wojo's coaching?  And if Wojo wasn't able to get through to him, is that more on Deonte or Wojo?  I will say Deonte's playing time was pretty choppy this season, and it is hard to get into a rhythm, flow, and produce consistent results when you have very inconsistent playing time.  

I would have liked to see Wojo give him more minutes to see if some of the rebounding would have come with more PT.  Deonte may not have the fundamental defensive skills you may like in a player, but he was a defensive playmaker - he was disruptive.  The potential was there.  In my view, I'd have liked for Wojo to figure out how to make it work with Deonte, because the kid is a major talent.

MU is 8 games into the season. The team hasn't even reached the 1/3rd mark of the season. By transferring, Deonte never gave it time to work. I'm not saying the results would have been different, but your comments make it sound like we had a season worth of evidence.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 10, 2014, 12:05:59 AM
Major failure on the coach....you find a way to make it work. You don't do this or allow this to happen now.

But he will rebound I persume...

What should Wojo have done differently?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 09, 2014, 11:57:45 PM

4) No coach, ANYWHERE, will play a kid more minutes just to keep him from transferring. The moment a coach does this, he has lost control of his team. Playing time is earned, not given. This is coaching 101. If a player says give more playing time or I walk and he won't listen to reason, any coach worth his salt will say "there's the door." If Deonte and John really left because they weren't willing to work for their playing time, then bravo to Wojo for standing tall.

TAMU

JJJ - clueless defensively (IMO more than Burton), horrible shot selection, bad turnovers.

Derrick - possibly the worst offensive backcourt player I have ever witnessed, only a 'good' defender when compared to his offense, horrible FT shooter.

Juan - very limited offensive player, very limited defensive player, poor shot selection (passes up open jump shots to force contested, wild drives), bad turnovers.

Taylor - misses more gimmies than any player other than Derrick, poor defensive player, hesitant with basketball, bad turnovers.

Carlino is an extremely flawed player yet needed with the make up of this team.  Duane is the real deal yet still developing and any positive contribution from a freshman in Cohen is welcome at this point in time.

If Deonte Burton with his skill set as it is now didn't have a larger role on this team full of world beaters then I'll be the first to say our coaching staff's metrics for alloting playing time should be an area of scrutiny.

Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 09, 2014, 09:43:55 PM
ok...then let's say he/wojo placates deonte and dawson this year by throwing them just enough bones to keep them around for this year.  then next year he pulls the rug out and...? you would feel much better about wojo then?  just wondering  

Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 12:10:15 AM
TAMU

JJJ - clueless defensively (IMO more than Burton), horrible shot selection, bad turnovers.

Derrick - possibly the worst offensive backcourt player I have ever witnessed, only a 'good' defender when compared to his offense, horrible FT shooter.

Juan - very limited offensive player, very limited defensive player, poor shot selection (passes up open jump shots to force contested, wild drives), bad turnovers.

Taylor - misses more gimmies than any player other than Derrick, poor defensive player, hesitant with basketball, bad turnovers.

Carlino is an extremely flawed player yet needed with the make up of this team.  Duane is the real deal yet still developing and any positive contribution from a freshman in Cohen is welcome at this point in time.

If Deonte Burton with his skill set as it is now didn't have a larger role on this team full of world beaters then I'll be the first to say our coaching staff's metrics for alloting playing time should be an area of scrutiny.

JJJ-Played comprable minutes to Deonte, but agreed that he should have gotten less
Derrick- The distance between Derrick's D and Deonte's D is much greater than the distance between Derrick's O and Deonte's O
Juan- I don't think anyone could make an argument that Deonte was better than Juan this season. Plus, Juan is a necessity because of his height and has been our best defender.
Steve- Necessary evil. Tallest player on the team.
Carlino/Duane- Both were head and shoulders better than Deonte this season.

Wojo and his staff evaluated the talent this year just fine. I think Deonte really struggled without a true big man to help seal off lanes for him on offense and cover his arse on defense. I think his production was going to go up significantly once Luke got on the floor. It's a shame won't get to see if that was a correct prediction or not.

You do agree about coaches not giving into demands from players for playing time, correct? Whatever our opinions are, clearly Burton wasn't doing something to earn playing time with the coaching staff.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 10, 2014, 12:15:13 AM
Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

I agree, and the same folks who thought Buzz could do no wrong until he left and now he is garbage and Wojo can do no wrong will have this sail over their heads as usual and begin hurling insults.

TAMU

I like you, but you're lying to yourself and this board if you think Derrick is closer to Deonte offensively than Deonte is to Derrick defensively.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Derrick being a good defender is a myth which began with Buzz 'coach speak' in press conferences and hailed on this message board to justify his playing time.  Thanks Ners!

I'm not suggesting Derrick should have had his minutes cut and given to Deonte, I'm just adding him to the mix of players on this roster who have very limited skill sets that Burton's potential exceeds drastically.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 12:25:46 AM
JJJ-Played comprable minutes to Deonte, but agreed that he should have gotten less
Derrick- The distance between Derrick's D and Deonte's D is much greater than the distance between Derrick's O and Deonte's O
Juan- I don't think anyone could make an argument that Deonte was better than Juan this season. Plus, Juan is a necessity because of his height and has been our best defender.
Steve- Necessary evil. Tallest player on the team.
Carlino/Duane- Both were head and shoulders better than Deonte this season.

Wojo and his staff evaluated the talent this year just fine. I think Deonte really struggled without a true big man to help seal off lanes for him on offense and cover his arse on defense. I think his production was going to go up significantly once Luke got on the floor. It's a shame won't get to see if that was a correct prediction or not.

You do agree about coaches not giving into demands from players for playing time, correct? Whatever our opinions are, clearly Burton wasn't doing something to earn playing time with the coaching staff.

I also like you, TAMU.  Your optimism is unparalleled and I respect you for defending DeWil when so many attack him, but the bold part...

(http://i.imgur.com/JFJl5.gif)

I'll tell it like it is...

At least when we lost a clunker to Omaha at home we followed it up with 3 straight wins.

One of those wins was a home clunker for Mighty Michigan and they followed it up with another clunker.

Things could be worse...

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
I have to tell it like it is.

I am deeply disappointed in Coach Wojo right now. Common Sense was not used at all this year in his treatment of either Deonte or John. Deonte was a kid who had a solid first season, was a pillar of our future plans and by all accounts was a good student and kid. His mother passes away two days before the start of the season. So obviously the young man is stressed at a very vulnerable point in his life. Why throw fuel on the fire and demote him. Just doesn't make sense and unnecessarily created additional stress for the kid. He could of easily been given 21-22 minutes and he would have been fine with the message of you earn more with D. Wojo had to understand how tight this group of young men are. They treat each other like brothers. He has messed up the family.

Wasting a year of Johns eligibility was not the right thing to do either. He should have been upfront and honest with that kid.

I think Wojo is a very inexperienced guy. I listen to some of his hyperbole and it tells me that. Today's actions tell me there are going to be a lot of growing pains with him.

The Sun will rise again tomorrow. Kids don't always understand and it is the coaches duty to be there for them through the tough times.

I don't believe student athletes are fungible.

Thanks, It will be fine. The future will be better than the past.

This thread makes me certain that we have some posters on Scoop who believe the planes were really missiles on 9/11.

It's MUScoop mad lib time!

(Insert poster) likes a (insert player) when they sign with MU.
(Insert poster) finds out (insert player) family member or coach posts on the board, and (Insert poster) gets giggly.
(Insert poster) reaches out to said (insert player) family member or coach via the Personal Message system.
(Insert poster) goes out of the way to praise and praise (insert player) no matter what, ignoring reason or fact, and even tears down other players and multiple coaching staffs, because of his new internet friends.
After (insert player) still does not get PT, (Insert poster) writes (insert player) family members or coach that they are getting a raw deal @ MU.

Rinse & repeat.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 10, 2014, 12:15:13 AM


Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

And at the end of each practice, they all get treats, and at the end of the year, they all get trophies!  Weeee! 

This is major college hoops.  You want playing time?  Earn it.  What this says to me is in practice, Deonte did what he's been doing in games.  He looks lost on D, has his hands down on D and when the shot goes up his eyes go to the basket instead of looking for an opposing player to box out.  If he's not getting these concepts in practice, he's not going to get them in a game.  To actually believe he or anyone else should get game time simply because he's a local guy or he has had a difficult time at home is nuts.

First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

Second thought, Dawson isn't a big surprise. Couldn't get on the court, it almost seems like him sitting as much as he did might be to help facilitate a transfer in the hopes that the 4 minutes against UTM gets waived. Regardless, we will apparently add a walk-on, who will be expected to get about as many minutes as John played since early mid-November. The brutal truth here is that this really isn't a net loss, because we are losing zero production. Hopefully John finds a better situation. He has some ability and can contribute to a team, I have no doubt, just probably not at this high of a level on a consistent basis.

Final thought, and I'm sure some will blast me for this, but Deonte has no one to blame but himself. Yes, he went through a traumatic year leading up to this. But his lack of minutes and lack of being a significantly contributing player on this team are not because of Wojo, they are because of Deonte.

Deonte is the one who plays defense with his hands at his side. No one on the coaching staff is telling him to do that. Deonte is the one who isn't going after defensive rebounds. Wojo specifically said that he could contribute in ways other than offense, but when he came to rebounding, he wasn't boxing out and he wasn't getting to balls. That's not just on the defensive end, but also on the offensive end, where he was half as likely to get an offensive rebound as he was a year ago. And while many (myself included) have speculated that Deonte could greatly benefit from a physical presence (like Otule was and hopefully Fischer will be) he chose to leave before he ever got to play with Luke. That's largely his decision.

Deonte is used to being able to dominate guys with his physical talents. The simple truth is that isn't good enough for high-level basketball. It wasn't good enough for him to get minutes at Brewster, and it won't be good enough for him to get minutes in a high-major conference or the NBA. The raw ability is there for him to be great. I thought he could have been an All-American here. But he simply doesn't try hard enough on either end of the court.

I really hope he finds a coach that can maximize his gifts, that can help him move on with his life and focus on what comes next. Apparently Wojo wasn't it. That does disappoint me, but not as much as Deonte's lack of effort over the past month or so did.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

Second thought, Dawson isn't a big surprise. Couldn't get on the court, it almost seems like him sitting as much as he did might be to help facilitate a transfer in the hopes that the 4 minutes against UTM gets waived. Regardless, we will apparently add a walk-on, who will be expected to get about as many minutes as John played since early mid-November. The brutal truth here is that this really isn't a net loss, because we are losing zero production. Hopefully John finds a better situation. He has some ability and can contribute to a team, I have no doubt, just probably not at this high of a level on a consistent basis.

Final thought, and I'm sure some will blast me for this, but Deonte has no one to blame but himself. Yes, he went through a traumatic year leading up to this. But his lack of minutes and lack of being a significantly contributing player on this team are not because of Wojo, they are because of Deonte.

Deonte is the one who plays defense with his hands at his side. No one on the coaching staff is telling him to do that. Deonte is the one who isn't going after defensive rebounds. Wojo specifically said that he could contribute in ways other than offense, but when he came to rebounding, he wasn't boxing out and he wasn't getting to balls. That's not just on the defensive end, but also on the offensive end, where he was half as likely to get an offensive rebound as he was a year ago. And while many (myself included) have speculated that Deonte could greatly benefit from a physical presence (like Otule was and hopefully Fischer will be) he chose to leave before he ever got to play with Luke. That's largely his decision.

Deonte is used to being able to dominate guys with his physical talents. The simple truth is that isn't good enough for high-level basketball. It wasn't good enough for him to get minutes at Brewster, and it won't be good enough for him to get minutes in a high-major conference or the NBA. The raw ability is there for him to be great. I thought he could have been an All-American here. But he simply doesn't try hard enough on either end of the court.

I really hope he finds a coach that can maximize his gifts, that can help him move on with his life and focus on what comes next. Apparently Wojo wasn't it. That does disappoint me, but not as much as Deonte's lack of effort over the past month or so did.

Excellent post, brew. I think your "first thought" was especially spot-on.

Quote from: MU82 on December 10, 2014, 08:09:30 AM
Excellent post, brew. I think your "first thought" was especially spot-on.

yep... spot on.

I think that in 10 years Wojo could be famous for being "the only man to hold Deonte Burton below 15 ppg".
This means that Wojo is still our coach in 10 years, and Deonte is making it big in the NBA.  I hope both happen.

I can say with confidence that the reason Wojo is and will be fine with this outcome, is that he and his staff tried everything to get through to Deonte. He just wasn't responsive to it, and that's okay. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

Second thought, Dawson isn't a big surprise. Couldn't get on the court, it almost seems like him sitting as much as he did might be to help facilitate a transfer in the hopes that the 4 minutes against UTM gets waived. Regardless, we will apparently add a walk-on, who will be expected to get about as many minutes as John played since early mid-November. The brutal truth here is that this really isn't a net loss, because we are losing zero production. Hopefully John finds a better situation. He has some ability and can contribute to a team, I have no doubt, just probably not at this high of a level on a consistent basis.

Final thought, and I'm sure some will blast me for this, but Deonte has no one to blame but himself. Yes, he went through a traumatic year leading up to this. But his lack of minutes and lack of being a significantly contributing player on this team are not because of Wojo, they are because of Deonte.

Deonte is the one who plays defense with his hands at his side. No one on the coaching staff is telling him to do that. Deonte is the one who isn't going after defensive rebounds. Wojo specifically said that he could contribute in ways other than offense, but when he came to rebounding, he wasn't boxing out and he wasn't getting to balls. That's not just on the defensive end, but also on the offensive end, where he was half as likely to get an offensive rebound as he was a year ago. And while many (myself included) have speculated that Deonte could greatly benefit from a physical presence (like Otule was and hopefully Fischer will be) he chose to leave before he ever got to play with Luke. That's largely his decision.

Deonte is used to being able to dominate guys with his physical talents. The simple truth is that isn't good enough for high-level basketball. It wasn't good enough for him to get minutes at Brewster, and it won't be good enough for him to get minutes in a high-major conference or the NBA. The raw ability is there for him to be great. I thought he could have been an All-American here. But he simply doesn't try hard enough on either end of the court.

I really hope he finds a coach that can maximize his gifts, that can help him move on with his life and focus on what comes next. Apparently Wojo wasn't it. That does disappoint me, but not as much as Deonte's lack of effort over the past month or so did.

Well put.

And for those who ask why Derrick plays more than Deonte despite his lesser stats, the answer is obvious:  Consistently giving max effort, and playing with his head in the game.  Derrick does what the coaches ask of him.  Deonte doesn't - that is assuming they asked him not to play with his hands on his hips on defense.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

Second thought, Dawson isn't a big surprise. Couldn't get on the court, it almost seems like him sitting as much as he did might be to help facilitate a transfer in the hopes that the 4 minutes against UTM gets waived. Regardless, we will apparently add a walk-on, who will be expected to get about as many minutes as John played since early mid-November. The brutal truth here is that this really isn't a net loss, because we are losing zero production. Hopefully John finds a better situation. He has some ability and can contribute to a team, I have no doubt, just probably not at this high of a level on a consistent basis.

Final thought, and I'm sure some will blast me for this, but Deonte has no one to blame but himself. Yes, he went through a traumatic year leading up to this. But his lack of minutes and lack of being a significantly contributing player on this team are not because of Wojo, they are because of Deonte.

Deonte is the one who plays defense with his hands at his side. No one on the coaching staff is telling him to do that. Deonte is the one who isn't going after defensive rebounds. Wojo specifically said that he could contribute in ways other than offense, but when he came to rebounding, he wasn't boxing out and he wasn't getting to balls. That's not just on the defensive end, but also on the offensive end, where he was half as likely to get an offensive rebound as he was a year ago. And while many (myself included) have speculated that Deonte could greatly benefit from a physical presence (like Otule was and hopefully Fischer will be) he chose to leave before he ever got to play with Luke. That's largely his decision.

Deonte is used to being able to dominate guys with his physical talents. The simple truth is that isn't good enough for high-level basketball. It wasn't good enough for him to get minutes at Brewster, and it won't be good enough for him to get minutes in a high-major conference or the NBA. The raw ability is there for him to be great. I thought he could have been an All-American here. But he simply doesn't try hard enough on either end of the court.

I really hope he finds a coach that can maximize his gifts, that can help him move on with his life and focus on what comes next. Apparently Wojo wasn't it. That does disappoint me, but not as much as Deonte's lack of effort over the past month or so did.

There's an old saying that coaches don't cut players, players cut themselves. Obviously, neither one of these players was cut, but their own limitations and/or effort directly led to their lack of playing time. We saw potential in both players but games aren't won with potential. Results matter.

In addition, Deonte doesn't really have a position. He's not quick enough to guard on the perimeter and he's not tall enough to battle in the post. He's a classic tweener. There's no doubt that the young man has skills offensively but unless he was going to contribute in other ways, his game didn't fit on this team. He's a scorer and that's about it. This current team needs more than that. On the 2012-13 team, he would have been a nice fit for some quick runs of instant offense, especially when protected by solid defenders like Blue, Otule and Lockett on the other end. This year's team doesn't have that luxury.

Both young men are going to find landing places and have successful college careers. I'm disappointed that it won't be at Marquette but I wish them the best.

Nice post BrewCity77.

I'll tell ya what...no matter what happens this year, I'll be glad when De Wilson isn't around anymore so that this effing board will (hopefully) improve and shut up the loud, incessant posters who love to hear themselves type the same thing for 50,000 words.

This place has devolved from a place that a few faithful Crean-bashers/supporters made everything about him....into a site a few use every. single. opportunity. to turn an argument into being about De. Wilson and his playing time and lack of offense.

It's sooooo tiring and MU Scoop used to be better than this.

Quote from: MUfan12 on December 09, 2014, 10:45:33 PM
And that was communicated to him. Not only on defense, but rebounding, an area that could have won him major minutes. Deonte wasn't receptive to it, so he decided to leave. Wojo isn't dumb, he knows the natural ability is there. He just couldn't get through to him.

Agree.  If anyone is making the case for Burton playing over Juan, we're talking 1 rebound per 11.5 minutes vs. 1 rebound per 4.7 minutes.  On a team that has been terrible at rebounding, not having Juan on the floor has been tough for that reason alone, and it was an open opportunity for Burton to earn more time since nobody besides Juan has been rebounding with any consistently.  Even with Fischer, increased minutes are still for the taking for any of the remaining seven (Fischer included) who contribute on the boards, even if they struggle in other areas.

Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on December 10, 2014, 08:29:20 AM
Nice post BrewCity77.

I'll tell ya what...no matter what happens this year, I'll be glad when De Wilson isn't around anymore so that this effing board will (hopefully) improve and shut up the loud, incessant posters who love to hear themselves type the same thing for 50,000 words.

This place has devolved from a place that a few faithful Crean-bashers/supporters made everything about him....into a site a few use every. single. opportunity. to turn an argument into being about De. Wilson and his playing time and lack of offense.

It's sooooo tiring and MU Scoop used to be better than this.

I agree with this.  I love having Derrick on the team but some posters make this place tough to come to and read.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 12:36:38 AM
TAMU

I like you, but you're lying to yourself and this board if you think Derrick is closer to Deonte offensively than Deonte is to Derrick defensively.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Derrick being a good defender is a myth which began with Buzz 'coach speak' in press conferences and hailed on this message board to justify his playing time.  Thanks Ners!

I'm not suggesting Derrick should have had his minutes cut and given to Deonte, I'm just adding him to the mix of players on this roster who have very limited skill sets that Burton's potential exceeds drastically.

Indeed agree to disagree. I agree (and think anyone would be a fool to disagree) that Burton has a ceiling that is miles higher than Derrick. But I don't believe in playing players based on potential. Every coach I have known plays players based on what can they do for me right now. And for the first part of the season, I really believe Derrick was doing more for us than Deonte was. I was predicting and hoping that Luke's presence would help Burton out on both ends of the court. Its a shame we'll never get to see them play together.

Conference season will be rough, but the future is bright!

Quote from: chapman on December 10, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
Agree.  If anyone is making the case for Burton playing over Juan, we're talking 1 rebound per 11.5 minutes vs. 1 rebound per 4.7 minutes.  On a team that has been terrible at rebounding, not having Juan on the floor has been tough for that reason alone, and it was an open opportunity for Burton to earn more time since nobody besides Juan has been rebounding with any consistently.  Even with Fischer, increased minutes are still for the taking for any of the remaining seven (Fischer included) who contribute on the boards, even if they struggle in other areas.

A player once told his coach that he wasn't getting the ball enough. The coach's response: "The ball comes off that rim 50 times a game. Go get it."

Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on December 10, 2014, 08:29:20 AM
Nice post BrewCity77.

I'll tell ya what...no matter what happens this year, I'll be glad when De Wilson isn't around anymore so that this effing board will (hopefully) improve and shut up the loud, incessant posters who love to hear themselves type the same thing for 50,000 words.

This place has devolved from a place that a few faithful Crean-bashers/supporters made everything about him....into a site a few use every. single. opportunity. to turn an argument into being about De. Wilson and his playing time and lack of offense.

It's sooooo tiring and MU Scoop used to be better than this.

You said it.  A lot of the crap from the last few years ran off some of our better, more insightful posters, and what we are left with just isn't the same.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 10, 2014, 08:45:57 AM
You said it.  A lot of the crap from the last few years ran off some of our better, more insightful posters, and what we are left with just isn't the same.

I think we have to be very careful in how we approach this "rift".  You can't run posters off the board, they quit.  Were they good posters and do I wish they were here?  Yes.  But they chose to leave, they could have just as easily chosen to stay and ignore those posters.  That's their choice.  If you stifle voices because of how they make you feel that is the worst kind of censorship and applaud the mods for their very delicate hand in this manner, we should self-police.

I hate how much we carry on about Derrick, but both sides are guilty of that as each side fights the other equally.

Quite frankly I like the diversity of opinion and thought.  As an example, I don't really agree with Tex's view point on what went down, but it definitely gives me food for thought and another perspective.  I've actually modified my stance on the transfers based on some of the things Ners, Tex, etc have said.  I don't agree with them 100% but I think there is value to what they say.

I think Brew captured some of it.  Mistakes were made in the whole process, both by the coaching staff and the players themselves.  In hindsight, some things likely could have been done differently but unfortunately the die has been cast.  The future is still bright, just a touch cloudier than we thought it would be.

One change I would like to see is some of the "alliances" that seem to go on.  We do seem to divide into two groups of posters that share the same viewpoint all the time.  It be nice to see say Sultan, Ners, and Brew fighting me, Willie, and TAMU over something some time.  Maybe there is a psychology study in that.  

Read page 1.  Skimmed page 5.  Skipped everything in between.

I could write a 20,000-word dissertation on this thread given just the title and post #1, and I'm pretty sure it would be 20,000 words of depth and accuracy on subject matter which is completely the opposite.  Kind of like American Movie, only I'd be the documentarian.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 08:28:00 AM
There's an old saying that coaches don't cut players, players cut themselves. Obviously, neither one of these players was cut, but their own limitations and/or effort directly led to their lack of playing time. We saw potential in both players but games aren't won with potential. Results matter.

In addition, Deonte doesn't really have a position. He's not quick enough to guard on the perimeter and he's not tall enough to battle in the post. He's a classic tweener. There's no doubt that the young man has skills offensively but unless he was going to contribute in other ways, his game didn't fit on this team. He's a scorer and that's about it. This current team needs more than that. On the 2012-13 team, he would have been a nice fit for some quick runs of instant offense, especially when protected by solid defenders like Blue, Otule and Lockett on the other end. This year's team doesn't have that luxury.

Both young men are going to find landing places and have successful college careers. I'm disappointed that it won't be at Marquette but I wish them the best.

Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being  #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 09:03:00 AM
One change I would like to see is some of the "alliances" that seem to go on.  We do seem to divide into two groups of posters that share the same viewpoint all the time.  It be nice to see say Sultan, Ners, and Brew fighting me, Willie, and TAMU over something some time.  Maybe there is a psychology study in that.  

I would never betray you mu03eng!

I actually think these moments have happened. But the D/D debate has been so all consuming that we don't have time to acknowledge them.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 09:13:40 AM
I would never betray you mu03eng!

I actually think these moments have happened. But the D/D debate has been so all consuming that we don't have time to acknowledge them.

That's why I have you, me and Willie riding off into the sunset together

You are probably right, it's likely a recency error on my part.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 09, 2014, 11:57:45 PM
Wow, this escalated quickly.

1) Best wishes to both John and Deonte. I hope they find what they are looking for at their next program.

2) "Encouraged transfers" do happen. But not in the way that Ners and others are implying. I have worked at two different D1 universities, one D2 university, and interned at another D1 university. I work with college basketball players, staff, and coaches every day and benching a kid who deserves to force him to transfer hasn't happened ONCE in my years of experience. It is extremely unethical and could kill your reputation on the recruiting scene.  What does happen, is coaches will have blunt conversations with players and tell them "unless you improve drastically, you will not get any playing time on this team. If playing time is your priority, you probably should transfer." In rarer cases, a coach may say "your scholarship will not be renewed next season because I need it for a better." This isn't very common in my experience. Some view it as unethical, I personally do not. Your scholarship is earned on the basketball court, if you can't perform and someone else can....

3) I have only had brief conversation with Wojo but my instincts, as well as everyone I talk to, lead me to believe that he is a genuine, ethical, upstanding human being. The fact that Wojo played John those four minutes against UT Martin leads me to believe that he wasn't planning on Dawson transferring. If he was truly "nailing Dawson to the bench" he wouldn't have done that. It would take a supremely terrible human being to do that to a kid. A much more likely scenario is that Dawson wasn't good enough to earn playing time in close game (e.g. all of our games since UT Martin) but was going to get playing time in garbage time scenarios with the possibility that he could earn more time in practice or next season.

4) No coach, ANYWHERE, will play a kid more minutes just to keep him from transferring. The moment a coach does this, he has lost control of his team. Playing time is earned, not given. This is coaching 101. If a player says give more playing time or I walk and he won't listen to reason, any coach worth his salt will say "there's the door." If Deonte and John really left because they weren't willing to work for their playing time, then bravo to Wojo for standing tall.

5) No player is bigger than the team. The coach should always do what is best for the program. (Except in cases of ethics)

6) Try to enjoy the process. The future is bright!

Thanks for sharing, always nice to bump experience against opinions.

Seems like Nobody is convincing Anybody on this issue.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:11:55 AM
Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being in the #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:11:55 AM
Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being  #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Deonte was given every chance to succeed. All he had to do was show his coaches in practice he was better than the other forwards on the team. He didn't do that, and his absolute refusal to rebound or play D limited his opportunities. He will be successful if he winds up at a school where he can shoot 25 times a game.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 09:26:07 AM
Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

Cue Ners talking about how players need extended runs of playing time to produce and slipping in a mention of Dawson's game against GT...

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
First thought, I suspect this could be one of those things Wojo looks back on and thinks he could have handled better. It was a big deal that he kept the entire team together after Buzz abandoned them. Wojo planted his flag on keeping the team together, and now that some are splintering apart, it looks like a chink in the armor. I'm confident we'll be fine in the long run, but I think this (like Buzz with Newbill) is something he will look back on as a more experienced coach and think "I could have done that better."

I think everyone needs to calm the f*ck down a little and read this paragraph.

I am as guilty as anyone for jumping on TW here, but all he seems to be saying is that it could have been communicated better.  That what the players may have been told regarding their role may not have matched that reality.  As brew said, planting the flag to keep the team together sounded good at the time, but I wonder if that lead to different expectations in the player's eyes.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 09:28:52 AM
Cue Ners talking about how players need extended runs of playing time to produce and slipping in a mention of Dawson's game against GT...

I'm not getting into the dawson stuff. I have nothing insightful to add to that wonderful topic.

But, Burton was my favorite player, and even I could see that he wasn't very good at basketball right now.

Personally, I would LOVE for him to take the rest of the year off and come back to MU, but I know that isn't likely.

I can't imagine losing a parent at his age, and my guess is that it's been very hard for him to maintain the focus required to succeed this season.

Super nice kid (when I met him for 5min), hope he does well.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 09:26:07 AM
Deonte WAS given an opportunity last season and especially this season. I'm sure both coaches would have loved for him to come in dominate and play great at both ends of the floor.

Unfortunately, he was inconsistent, especially this season.

I love the kid's potential, and I really wish he would have stayed.

BUT, I can't blame his transfer on the coach not playing him. You get the minutes you earn. Deonte had opportunities, but couldn't capitalize.

Best of luck to him. I think he's going to be a really good college player.

Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:11:55 AM
Results do matter.  What kind of on-court results did the guys in front of Deonte and John produce these last 1.5 years?  It may be great if you have this max effort, try hard guy in practice - but if he can't produce on the court during games - you give his more talented back up a legitimate chance.  Anyone who thinks Deonte and John aren't more talented than Juan and Derrick is flat out lying to themselves.  And when the guys you are buried behind the bench are floundering big time in games, it doesn't exactly promote a great attitude among more talented players sitting behind them.

Deonte and John, given what they were benched behind, actually showed great attitudes.

This whole new narrative of "Deonte plays defense with his hands down" is comical.  Deonte's hands were just fine when he was in a true guarding situation.  You don't run around a basketball court with your hands up in the air all game long on the defensive end.  Somehow Burton's hand's down defense resulted in him being  #5 of ALL COLLEGE BASKETBALL PLAYERS in Steal Percentage.  Amazing he was able to do that with his "hands down at his side."

Edit:  I've been generally pleased with Juan this year and wouldn't necessarily have slashed his minutes and given to Deonte.  I'm sure everyone can guess who's minutes I would have greatly reduced and given to both Deonte and John.

Whole post is spot on, but the bolded is the funniest part emerging from all of this. I know there's a lot more to defense than steals. But our entire defense this season is predicated on generating turnovers. So what did we do? Benched a player with needed offensive skills who generates steals at the highest rate on the team, in lieu of a horrid offensive player who generates the LEAST amount of steals on the team but is generally good at looking like he tries hard (great, good for him, don't care if it doesn't produce anything). The end result was to basically force a promising young player who by all accounts was a great kid off the team. The whole thing is completely warped.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:37:13 AM
Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

Ners, as your sponsor, I am suggesting that you may want to take a few steps back a little.  I like that you were focusing on the communication aspect of the issue earlier, but if you go down this road, you might end up where you said you didn't want to go just a day ago.

Think about the children.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:37:13 AM
Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

Alright, I have ABSOLUTELY NO inside information, but I'll say this:
(As the son of a longtime coach)

My dad never benched or screamed a kid for a physical mistake. But, if you made consistent mental errors, you wouldn't get much playing time.

So, I don't know what Burton's specific errors were this season, but he generally looked lost, and then found himself on the bench. My guess is that he was making mental mistakes, not necessarily physical mistakes, and that's what limited his playing time. Tough for a coach to let a kid play through "mental mistakes" because they aren't magically going to go away.

With Dawson, I have no insight.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 09:38:14 AM
Whole post is spot on, but the bolded is the funniest part emerging from all of this. I know there's a lot more to defense than steals. But our entire defense this season is predicated on generating turnovers. So what did we do? Benched a player with needed offensive skills who generates steals at the highest rate on the team, in lieu of a horrid offensive player who generates the LEAST amount of steals on the team but is generally good at looking like he tries hard (great, good for him, don't care if it doesn't produce anything). The end result was to basically force a promising young player who by all accounts was a great kid off the team. The whole thing is completely warped.

Here is what I find warped:

1. The idea that you give time to players who haven't deserved it because of potential.

2. That we are now on the second coach that seems to agree with my first point, yet Joe Blow message board poster thinks both were off base.

If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:40:04 AM

Ners, as your sponsor, I am suggesting that you may want to take a few steps back a little.  I like that you were focusing on the communication aspect of the issue earlier, but if you go down this road, you might end up where you said you didn't want to go just a day ago.

Think about the children.

Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 09:44:18 AM
Alright, I have ABSOLUTELY NO inside information, but I'll say this:
(As the son of a longtime coach)

My dad never benched or screamed a kid for a physical mistake. But, if you made consistent mental errors, you wouldn't get much playing time.

So, I don't know what Burton's specific errors were this season, but he generally looked lost, and then found himself on the bench. My guess is that he was making mental mistakes, not necessarily physical mistakes, and that's what limited his playing time. Tough for a coach to let a kid play through "mental mistakes" because they aren't magically going to go away.

With Dawson, I have no insight.

Agree 100%.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:40:04 AM

Think about the children.

(http://media0.giphy.com/media/69QYIqHQQEVbO/200.gif)

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:44:43 AM
If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

The communication bit is laughable. Here's what Wojo said to the JS, and my bet is that's filtered compared to what was said in practice:

"I don't know if anything went wrong," Wojciechowski said. "I think there were other guys that were playing better than him. We were eight games into the season, so to make a judgment on how the rest of the 20-plus games would go I think it's a little bit too early to judge. But at this point in the season we had other guys that when they're on the court our team plays better collectively."

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 09:47:21 AM
Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

No. No. No.

I'll clarify:

I'm sure both coaches (Buzz and Wojo) would have LOVED for Deonte to be awesome from day 1 and force them to bench (insert player) permanently.

Deonte has some holes in his game (like most players), so they had to limit his playing time.

Perfectly logical.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:33:35 AM

I think everyone needs to calm the f*ck down a little and read this paragraph.

I am as guilty as anyone for jumping on TW here, but all he seems to be saying is that it could have been communicated better.  That what the players may have been told regarding their role may not have matched that reality.  As brew said, planting the flag to keep the team together sounded good at the time, but I wonder if that lead to different expectations in the player's eyes.

I would agree with you if that was what TW's original post said.  But his exact words were:  "Wasting a year of Johns eligibility was not the right thing to do either. He should have been upfront and honest with that kid."  To me, that's calling Wojo a liar, because it indicates he wasn't "honest" with him.

Vague or unclear communications are one thing.  Outright dishonesty is completely another.  And TW's OP alleged the latter.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:37:13 AM
Yep, this is all nice and well - Deonte has to dominate both ends of the floor.  Meanwhile you have other guys who can't dominate either end getting more minutes than you.  And let's not even talk about needing to be consistent - we've had guys who have been pretty much consistently awful get more PT than Deonte and John.

You're right.  Buzz and Wojo have no idea who help the team win and who to play.  You do.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 09:47:21 AM
Why should Ners stay silent on this? The new narrative is patently absurd, and he's absolutely right. The same people who advocate for Derrick are holding Deonte and others to a ridiculous standard of dominance on both ends of the court. It's insane. Completely insane.

No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:44:43 AM

Here is what I find warped:

1. The idea that you give time to players who haven't deserved it because of potential.

2. That we are now on the second coach that seems to agree with my first point, yet Joe Blow message board poster thinks both were off base.

If you want to criticize Wojo for his communication.  For not being completely honest about performance vis a vis playing time, then I am willing to listen.  But if you are going to say "well he is more talented, therefore he simply deserved it,"  I am not going to take you very seriously.

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

Sssshhh.  Buzz, Wojo, and you know nothing.  Ners knows.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Exhibit A as to why you are not a D-1 coach.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

I guess the Ellenson Family Reunion also knows more than Buzz and Wojo.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Alright, well, that's clear, and we can just agree to disagree.

Deonte is my favorite player, and he is supremely talented. But, I don't think that talent has translated into actual production (yet). Therefore, I understand why he's not getting 35mpg. When his talent creates production, he'll get playing time.

No real debate, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Thanks coach.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 09:57:22 AM
No one is setting a standard of dominance on both ends of the court. Quite frankly, Deonte wasn't contributing much in any facet of the game, not just defensively. In 55% as many minutes, he has 57% more TOs than Derrick Wilson and Steve Taylor. He has 3 fewer rebounds than Cohen despite playing 31 more minutes. He has 6 total defensive rebounds on the season. He has 2 assists and 36 FGA in 129 minutes. That means, he averages a shot every 3.6 minutes and an assist every 64.5 minutes. He played over 70 consecutive minutes without an assist!

I'm not trying to attack Deonte. We all know that he has talent but his actual production has been very poor this season.

Deonte is a threat to score. 50% from 2, 40% from 3, 77% from the line. Derrick is at 46% from 2, 22% from 3, and 38% from the line. Deonte's steal % is best on the team at 4.8%, Derrick's is the lowest by far with Steve Taylor at 1.6%. So Derrick doesn't turn it over. DOOOOOOOOON'T CAAAAAAAAAARE. We have 2 other PGs on the team. Play them instead in a standard 2 guard set and give a guy like Deonte burn at the 3/4 base of the zone.

This thread and the premise that started it is breathtakingly stupid.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

Problem is, Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes any more than Luke Fischer will be competing for minutes with Derrick. If Deonte could handle the ball and guard the perimeter (and wasn't a complete black hole), you might have an argument here.

Quote from: wadesworld on December 10, 2014, 10:03:46 AM
I guess the Ellenson Family Reunion also knows more than Buzz and Wojo.

Such a worthless comment.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:12:37 AM
Such a worthless comment.

Then explain to me how 2 division 1 college basketball coaches would come to the exact same conclusion, and you be so entirely sure that they couldn't be any more wrong.  Please.  I'm begging to know how it is that Wojo and Buzz both came to the same conclusion yet they are so wrong, but you aren't saying you know more than them.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

If Burton is quantifiably better than Derrick, why would Wojo play Burton the minutes he played and Derrick his minutes?  Why would Wojo want Burton to transfer if it is clear that Burton can produce at high levels for this team.

I'm asking seriously, not trying to be a jerk.

Quote from: humanlung on December 10, 2014, 10:10:47 AM
This thread and the premise that started it is breathtakingly stupid.

Yes.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 09:52:59 AM
No. No. No.

I'll clarify:

I'm sure both coaches (Buzz and Wojo) would have LOVED for Deonte to be awesome from day 1 and force them to bench (insert player) permanently.

Deonte has some holes in his game (like most players), so they had to limit his playing time.

Perfectly logical.

Fine if you feel that way. But then at least be consistent and limit the PT of a player like Derrick who also has extreme glaring holes in his game (and in my opinion larger glaring weaknesses) with no potential for improvement.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 10:15:12 AM
If Burton is quantifiably better than Derrick, why would Wojo play Burton the minutes he played and Derrick his minutes?  Why would Wojo want Burton to transfer if it is clear that Burton can produce at high levels for this team.

I'm asking seriously, not trying to be a jerk.

I don't have an answer. It makes no sense to me at all. None whatsoever.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:11:14 AM
Problem is, Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes any more than Luke Fischer will be competing for minutes with Derrick. If Deonte could handle the ball and guard the perimeter (and wasn't a complete black hole), you might have an argument here.

If you've been paying attention, Derrick has been playing the bottom of the 2/3 zone, exactly where Deonte would play on defense, and has largely shared the court with 2 other PGs in Duane and Carlino, rendering his services at the 1 redundant and unnecessary. For all intents and purposes he has been playing the 3.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:16:11 AM
Fine if you feel that way. But then at least be consistent and limit the PT of a player like Derrick who also has extreme glaring holes in his game (and in my opinion larger glaring weaknesses) with no potential for improvement.

Well, as I posted earlier, I suspect Deonte's current performance issues might be more mental than physical.

Most coaches will allow some leeway for players to improve on physical mistakes. However, if you repeatedly make mental mistakes, you'll find yourself on the bench.

I don't know exactly why Wojo made the choices he did (I HAVE NO INSIDER INFO), but this seems like a reasonable assumption based upon what I saw.

Deonte didn't look physically over-matched in games, but he looked like he didn't know exactly where he was supposed to be, or exactly what he was supposed to be doing, and then BAM, he'd be on the bench.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:10:28 AM
Deonte is a threat to score. 50% from 2, 40% from 3, 77% from the line. Derrick is at 46% from 2, 22% from 3, and 38% from the line. Deonte's steal % is best on the team at 4.8%, Derrick's is the lowest by far with Steve Taylor at 1.6%. So Derrick doesn't turn it over. DOOOOOOOOON'T CAAAAAAAAAARE. We have 2 other PGs on the team. Play them instead in a standard 2 guard set and give a guy like Deonte burn at the 3/4 base of the zone.

You care too much about 19 year olds that appear on your television set who dribble an orange ball, and put through a structure with a circular hoop attached to it that is 10 feet in the air.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:18:06 AM
I don't have an answer. It makes no sense to me at all. None whatsoever.

Fair answer, guess it'll just be a mystery to time

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:21:29 AM
If you've been paying attention, Derrick has been playing the bottom of the 2/3 zone, exactly where Deonte would play on defense, and has largely shared the court with 2 other PGs in Duane and Carlino, rendering his services at the 1 redundant and unnecessary. For all intents and purposes he has been playing the 3.

No, Derrick hasn't been playing the three.
As this KenPom usage chart (courtesy of Paint Touches) shows, Derrick has played exclusively at the 1 and 2. And Deonte has played exclusively at the 4.
They were not competing for minutes

https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/542413641513844736/photo/1

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 09, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
Wadesworld is the most knowledgeable poster around. He knows everything about everything, just ask him and he'll tell you. I think he's one of the great minds of our time  ::)

But wait...but wait...I thought TAMU and the Slurpy one were..and MU82...Can it be that we have several or maybe a lot of the greatest basketball minds (as well as on any other topic) right here on Scoop? I believe so.

Quote from: murara1994 on December 09, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
Go F YOURSELF

How we are digressing here. Leave this for Bo Ryan, ND fans, Badger fans, Ky. fans, etc.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:28:15 AM
No, Derrick hasn't been playing the three.
As this KenPom usage chart (courtesy of Paint Touches) shows, Derrick has played exclusively at the 1 and 2. And Deonte has played exclusively at the 4.
They were not competing for minutes

https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/542413641513844736/photo/1

Super interesting but perhaps a tad misleading.  It can be argued that Luke's return will result (or could have) in a shift.  Perhaps a little less 3 guard with all moving down a position?  Not that I personally think that would have made us a better team this year.

Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2014, 09:15:35 PM
"Having," as in the biblical sense?

We all need some biblical sense right now!

Quote from: NotBuzzWilliams on December 09, 2014, 10:37:31 PM
Don't make decisions based on where you are in life, make them on where you're going. Your biography is not your destiny, your decisions are

With philosophy like that, you are..."Buzz Williams"

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:28:15 AM
No, Derrick hasn't been playing the three.
As this KenPom usage chart (courtesy of Paint Touches) shows, Derrick has played exclusively at the 1 and 2. And Deonte has played exclusively at the 4.
They were not competing for minutes

https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/542413641513844736/photo/1

Trust me, I have a KenPom subscription too. We have a 3 PG offense right now. It was unnecessary. Carlino and Duane could share those duties, then you slide other players up to their natural positions. And Derrick is most certainly playing the 3/4 in the base of the 2/3 zone on defense, exactly where Deonte would play.

Quote from: jsglow on December 10, 2014, 10:36:41 AM
Super interesting but perhaps a tad misleading.  It can be argued that Luke's return will result (or could have) in a shift.  Perhaps a little less 3 guard with all moving down a position?  Not that I personally think that would have made us a better team this year.

And for me, herein lies a huge part of the problem. Luke's return would have likely led to everyone shifting down a bit and in Burton's case, would have given him a chance not only at more minutes but to be a more efficient player. Deonte needs someone like Luke in the middle of the paint to really be effective. That's what makes his transfer so disappointing. Just when he was finally going to have a chance to show his game, he decides to leave.

Quite simply, Deonte has disappointed this season. I can understand why. He went through a lot. But as far as actual, on the court production, he hasn't met expectations. He hasn't earned more minutes than he's been given. I have no problem with our coach giving players the minutes they earn. I'm not sure why people are having such a difficult time grasping this.

If Deonte was averaging 10 ppg in 16 mpg, there would be a case. If Deonte was incredibly efficient on offense and at least sticking to assignments on defense, there would be a case. If Deonte was doing all the other things outside of scoring (assists, rebounds, boxing out), there would be a case. But he wasn't lighting up the scoreboard and he wasn't doing the other things. So where is the case?

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:42:19 AM
Trust me, I have a KenPom subscription too. We have a 3 PG offense right now. It was unnecessary. Carlino and Duane could share those duties, then you slide other players up to their natural positions. And Derrick is most certainly playing the 3/4 in the base of the 2/3 zone on defense, exactly where Deonte would play.

So, you have a KenPom subscription that specifically tells (shows) you that neither Derrick or Deonte have been playing the three, then come here to make the case that they're both playing the three?

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 09:21:36 AM
That's why I have you, me and Willie riding off into the sunset together

You are probably right, it's likely a recency error on my part.

I'm OK with that, as long as it does not turn into a Brokeback Mountain thing.

By the way, reading all these posts in this thread is like watching the Kardashians or Real Housewives, only the posts here are cattier. Please--I do not watch by choice, it is my wife trying to expand her mind. I try to read when that crap is on, but the caterwailing interrupts.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 09:40:04 AM

Ners, as your sponsor, I am suggesting that you may want to take a few steps back a little.  I like that you were focusing on the communication aspect of the issue earlier, but if you go down this road, you might end up where you said you didn't want to go just a day ago.

Think about the children.

Yes, we must always think of the children--especially those of us on this thread.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 10:42:58 AM
And for me, herein lies a huge part of the problem. Luke's return would have likely led to everyone shifting down a bit and in Burton's case, would have given him a chance not only at more minutes but to be a more efficient player. Deonte needs someone like Luke in the middle of the paint to really be effective. That's what makes his transfer so disappointing. Just when he was finally going to have a chance to show his game, he decides to leave.

Quite simply, Deonte has disappointed this season. I can understand why. He went through a lot. But as far as actual, on the court production, he hasn't met expectations. He hasn't earned more minutes than he's been given. I have no problem with our coach giving players the minutes they earn. I'm not sure why people are having such a difficult time grasping this.

If Deonte was averaging 10 ppg in 16 mpg, there would be a case. If Deonte was incredibly efficient on offense and at least sticking to assignments on defense, there would be a case. If Deonte was doing all the other things outside of scoring (assists, rebounds, boxing out), there would be a case. But he wasn't lighting up the scoreboard and he wasn't doing the other things. So where is the case?

Again, I'll go back to the point where Deonte has sacrificed a lot (eligibility wise) with this decision when it might have been the case that he could have blossomed following Luke's eligibility.  We may never know his exact reasoning and I'm not his dad.  I hope he made the right choice.  Because I know he's a great kid.  

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:46:07 AM
So, you have a KenPom subscription that specifically tells (shows) you that neither Derrick or Deonte have been playing the three, then come here to make the case that they're both playing the three?

You're being purposely obtuse. Read the fine print directly below those lineups. "Position designation is estimated by an algorithm and may not reflect reality." I watch the games, KenPom's positions algorithm does not.

Quote from: reinko on December 10, 2014, 10:23:51 AM
You care too much about 19 year olds that appear on your television set who dribble an orange ball, and put through a structure with a circular hoop attached to it that is 10 feet in the air.

...says the guy with 2500 posts on a board devoted to MU hoops?

Quote from: jsglow on December 10, 2014, 10:51:28 AM
Again, I'll go back to the point where Deonte has sacrificed a lot (eligibility wise) with this decision when it might have been the case that he could have blossomed following Luke's eligibility.  We may never know his exact reasoning and I'm not his dad.  I hope he made the right choice.  Because I know he's a great kid.  

I agree 100% with all of this. I fear he has too many off-campus voices in his ear telling him he needs to be a star now, and not emphasizing the work involved in becoming that type of player, no matter how talented he may be.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 10, 2014, 12:15:13 AM
Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

The part in bold is important because many posts here seem to be operating from the assumption that Deonte's transfer was encouraged or was because of his limited playing time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything that lists that as the reason. If it isn't, doesn't that make this whole conversation moot?

Quote from: Texas Western on December 09, 2014, 09:05:40 PM
I never said that. I said he is inexperienced, we are going to go through growing pains as a result of not only the players inexperience but also his. Since he is older and more experience my disappointment lies with him and not the players.

Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:53:37 AM
You're being purposely obtuse. Read the fine print directly below those lineups. "Position designation is estimated by an algorithm and may not reflect reality." I watch the games, KenPom's positions algorithm does not.

KenPom algorithm doesn't take into account defensive positioning in a zone, so in a sense you are both right.  Derrick is playing the 1 or 2 in the offense with Burton at the 4.  On defense Derrick and Burton were both playing wings so essentially 3/4 on defensively.  But that would also apply to JjJ and Burton since JjJ played a wing in the zone mostly.

So defensively they were replacements for each other but not offensively.  I'd also argue, if Burton could play the wing on the zone better, Derrick would have played less because that's the only way he beats out Burton.


My biggest disappointment is that Fischer's availability would have done wonders for Burton.  Derrick's minutes would have gone down and Burton's up and all would be right with the world.  Guess we'll never know.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 09:18:35 PM

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

C'mon Sultan.....Ners is one of the most credible posters EVER.

Quote from: Ellenson for an mu-rara on December 10, 2014, 11:00:31 AM
Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

Exactly.  Wojo's a smart guy. Even if he was only half paying attention to what K did during those 15 years, I have to believe he'd pick up more knowledge than 99% of this board and know how to handle most, if not all, situations regarding players.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 10:56:50 AM
I agree 100% with all of this. I fear he has too many off-campus voices in his ear telling him he needs to be a star now, and not emphasizing the work involved in becoming that type of player, no matter how talented he may be.

Again, exactly the way I feel about it.  Regardless of where DB ends up, he'll have the same issues with the next coach.....unless he decides he'd rather be the big fish in a small pond and go to a much lesser school where he can manhandle lesser talent offensively and be hidden defensively. But it doesn't work that way in high major, college hoops.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

I agree. Obviously, mentally, there is some stuff going on with Burton but absolutely he should have seen more court. Everyone on that team has a leash for their shortcomings, Deonte's leash was shortest and it made no sense.  

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:11:14 AM
Problem is, Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes any more than Luke Fischer will be competing for minutes with Derrick. If Deonte could handle the ball and guard the perimeter (and wasn't a complete black hole), you might have an argument here.

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:17:26 AM
Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

Yep.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:17:26 AM
Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what's going on in the minds of these kids.
Though it's cute to see you guys now basing your case around defensive usage ... as if you're ever going to win a Deonte vs Derrick on defense argument.

QuoteI have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.

Yes, Ners, it's all about Derrick Wilson. Not only did he singlehandedly destroy Marquette's 2013-14 season, but now he's somehow responsible for the transfer of not one - but two - promising players.
I'm looking forward to the end of this petty obsession of yours.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 11:05:40 AM
KenPom algorithm doesn't take into account defensive positioning in a zone, so in a sense you are both right.  Derrick is playing the 1 or 2 in the offense with Burton at the 4.  On defense Derrick and Burton were both playing wings so essentially 3/4 on defensively.  But that would also apply to JjJ and Burton since JjJ played a wing in the zone mostly.

So defensively they were replacements for each other but not offensively.  I'd also argue, if Burton could play the wing on the zone better, Derrick would have played less because that's the only way he beats out Burton.


My biggest disappointment is that Fischer's availability would have done wonders for Burton.  Derrick's minutes would have gone down and Burton's up and all would be right with the world.  Guess we'll never know.

Right, that's more along the lines of what I'm trying to say. Then offensively, with 2 other PGs on the court in Duane and Carlino, playing Derrick in a 3 PG attack with 1/2/3 all essentially interchangeable is completely unnecessary. Just play Duane and Carlino in a 2 guard attack with someone like Juan alongside Deonte in the 3/4 positions on both offense and defense. In that sense, Derrick most certainly is playing in lieu of Deonte and others.

I've said all I need to say on this, I will now cede the floor.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:17:26 AM
Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 09, 2014, 10:04:22 AM
Signed.

And though we battle a lot here Sultan - I too am glad you post here and respect (though disagree on some) you/r takes on MU basketball and passion for it as well.

Ners.  You lasted 25 hours and 13 minutes.  For the love of all that is holy, don't you have any more willpower than that?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 10:46:07 AM
So, you have a KenPom subscription that specifically tells (shows) you that neither Derrick or Deonte have been playing the three, then come here to make the case that they're both playing the three?

Do you think Ken Pomeroy watches every college basketball game?  He goes off of what the player is listed off by the program.

Derrick is playing a forward position in our zone defense.  Period.  Burton has a lot more business playing that slot when you have 2 capable guards on the floor in Carlino and Duane.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 10, 2014, 11:22:51 AM
Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what's going on in the minds of these kids.
Though it's cute to see you guys now basing your case around defensive usage ... as if you're ever going to win a Deonte vs Derrick on defense argument.

Yes, Ners, it's all about Derrick Wilson. Not only did he singlehandedly destroy Marquette's 2013-14 season, but now he's somehow responsible for the transfer of not one - but two - promising players.
I'm looking forward to the end of this petty obsession of yours.

LOL - No I won't win that argument.  But, You realize Derrick's D-Rating right now is the worst on the team?  Along with his steal percentage?  But hey, he plays with his hands up on defense.  It's the same old story, those on his side of debate grasping for intangible straws because the stats aren't their to support him playing.  The difference between Burton and Derrick on the O-End is so incredibly wide, Derrick would need to be the absolute best defender we've ever seen in college basketball to offset the huge deficit offensively compared to Burton.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:41:46 AMThe difference between Burton and Derrick on the O-End is so incredibly wide, Derrick would need to be the absolute best defender we've ever seen in college basketball to offset the huge deficit offensively compared to Burton.

Actually, sadly, it's really not. It should be, based on talent, but it's not. In terms of points contributed per 100 possessions, Deonte is adding less than 2 points over Derrick, if all things were equal and they played the same position (which they aren't, and they don't, but...). Strictly offensively, Deonte is turning it over far more and assisting far less, which makes them basically a wash on offense.

That should not be the case. It absolutely should not be. Deonte is vastly more talented than Derrick. But when you factor in that he leads the team in fouls committed/40 minutes and in terms of players in forward roles on defense he is least likely to get to a rebound, it's pretty easy to say Derrick would be earning minutes over Deonte for a reason.

That is, if they played the same position, or were competing for the same minutes. Which they don't, and they aren't.

I 2nd the thought that I hope Deonte was getting good advice, especially in the wake of his mom's passing. As for Derrick, he is doing what is asked of him and that is playing a LOT.

Ners is very out there in his opinions but I don't disagree with him that there has to be some other combination out there that isn't 3 pg lineup. Especially in a zone where Deonte could take some risks jumping the ball.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 11:23:56 AM
Right, that's more along the lines of what I'm trying to say. Then offensively, with 2 other PGs on the court in Duane and Carlino, playing Derrick in a 3 PG attack with 1/2/3 all essentially interchangeable is completely unnecessary. Just play Duane and Carlino in a 2 guard attack with someone like Juan alongside Deonte in the 3/4 positions on both offense and defense. In that sense, Derrick most certainly is playing in lieu of Deonte and others.

I've said all I need to say on this, I will now cede the floor.

Duane and Carlino are both better off the ball so I get the Derrick thing but it's a valid point.

So in your ideal world the best line-up is:
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

How many minutes can they legitimately play together?

Maybe the fact that Deonte couldn't beat out Juan Anderson and Jajaun Johnson caused him to leave.  Maybe Wally Ellenson is beating him in practice.  Maybe if he could grab more than 1.4 rebound in 16.1 mpg.  Heck, Carlino is averaging 3.0 rpg in 31.0 mpg.  How is a 6-2 175 lb G outrebounding a 6-4 230 lb athletic freak?  Maybe Wojo saw that as a red flag in regards to giving Deonte more playing time?

Sure, Deonte is a great athlete and has the ability to get hot on occasion.  But when he wasn't on a hot streak he was an inconsistent scorer with poor shot selection, played matador defense, and couldn't grab a rebound.  If Deonte would have earned more playing time he wouldn't be transferring.  Some posters are saying Wojo should've just given him playing time and let him shoot every trip down the floor to keep him in the fold.  Ridiculous!  At this point Deonte is still more potential than production.  Who knows if he ever realizes it?  I remember all the fretting after Dameon Mason transferred.  He was a non-factor at LSU averaging 5.4 ppg as a junior and 3.1 ppg as a senior.  I hope Deonte goes on to have success at his next stop but I remain confident Wojo will have success.

As for Dawson, he was already behind Duane at the 1 and Duane, JJJ, and Cohen all were ahead of him on the wing.  Add NN and Cheatham next year and that's just more competition.  I think John has some upside but like Deonte he's more potential than production at this point.  The fact that John couldn't earn playing time with a short roster speaks volumes.  

Good luck to both players.  I think this is best for both of these players and MU.  Opportunities abound for all parties.

Quote from: Ellenson for an mu-rara on December 10, 2014, 11:00:31 AM
Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

He has never been a head coach before. Much easier to be an assistant. At Duke he was a part of the program as a player and then an assistant in an already established program. This situation is far different than anything he faced at Duke as there was always stability. For the most part he has done some good things, but I am also saying that his inexperience  in part led to this outcome, I am not willing to put it solely on the kids involved. Wojo will reflect someday on this and realize this. These kids were all very tight and more than one lost sleep over this.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:17:26 AM
Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

Here's the problem:

#1 That line-up is risky because if you have foul trouble, you'll essentially be left with Sandy Cohen playing post.

#2 Deonte has looked lost this year. Not overmatched. Lost. It's hard for a coach to play a guy (for extended minutes) who doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

I love Deonte, and clearly, he's a talented player. I'm sure the coaching staff would love to give him more minutes. But, he has to prove that he's worthy of those minutes. That has nothing to do with Derrick, and everything to do with Deonte.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 10:00:59 AM
I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels.

Deonte can NOT dribble, pass, rebound or play defense better than Derrick. Deonte does not value the ball, does not know where he should be on the floor at times, and is unable to play in the context of the offense.

Deonte has more potential than Derrick and more basketball athleticism, but is NOT a better basketball player right now.

And I am NOT saying this in any way to glorify Derrick.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 11:53:48 AM
Duane and Carlino are both better off the ball so I get the Derrick thing but it's a valid point.

So in your ideal world the best line-up is:
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

How many minutes can they legitimately play together?

I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

Quote from: brandx on December 10, 2014, 12:12:41 PM
Deonte can NOT dribble, pass, rebound or play defense better than Derrick. Deonte does not value the ball, does not know where he should be on the floor at times, and is unable to play in the context of the offense.

Deonte has more potential than Derrick and more basketball athleticism, but is NOT a better basketball player right now.

And I am NOT saying this in any way to glorify Derrick.

Hmmmmmm......Now that is quite a statement.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 12:17:33 PM
I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

Deonte's inability to understand zone D concepts is a big part of why he doesn't play. Putting him at the bottom of the zone isn't going to solve that. Derrick can play there because, despite his size, he knows where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 10, 2014, 12:17:33 PM
I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

I think you are wrong on just how easily it can be done.  Given how Burton played this year, he couldn't be out there more than 20 minutes without Fischer be eligible.  Without Luke there is maybe two possible combinations that can occur with Burton on the floor and no Derrick.  There are infinite combinations since Derrick can play 4 of 5 spots in the zone.

Juan is the back-up to Teve and Burton is the back-up to Juan.  You absolutely can't play JjJ and Burton together for more than a minute or two.

One of the interesting things about this debate is the aforementioned "who brought about" the Burton transfer. My instincts tell me that given Coach Wojo's own experience -- where he was told he was not expected to be a starter on Duke's team and he subsequently went away for the summer, dealt with his weaknesses and came back changed -- he probably only told Deonte that others were playing ahead of him and he had work to do.

No doubt Deonte saw something different and wasn't likely to put the work in Coach Wojo did in his own experience. In effect, you have to want it and Deonte, tragically, did not want it badly enough to make changes. It's too bad because at times one could see what Deonte could be with our team.

Nonetheless, let's wish him well and hope he has a great career somewhere else.

I'm certain a young man like Deonte is still aiming high.  The "it" may simply be another, elsewhere.  In speaking with the coaches after the pre-seaon luncheon, more than ever the fit is paramount.  Neither talent nor potential is the most important factor in a players success.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 12:23:10 PM
Deonte's inability to understand zone D concepts is a big part of why he doesn't play. Putting him at the bottom of the zone isn't going to solve that. Derrick can play there because, despite his size, he knows where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.

Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 11:17:26 AM
Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

I think you are right that Deonte would have benefited from playing the three, but the problem with that lineup is that 3 of the 4 guys who can play the post positions are on the floor at the same time. Deonte led the team in fouls per 40 minutes (4.96...yowser!). If Deonte gets in foul trouble, you have Juan, Steve, and Cohen who have to be on the floor for the rest of the game. Wojo was smart not to put the three of them on the floor at the same time.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2014, 11:48:52 AM
Actually, sadly, it's really not. It should be, based on talent, but it's not. In terms of points contributed per 100 possessions, Deonte is adding less than 2 points over Derrick, if all things were equal and they played the same position (which they aren't, and they don't, but...). Strictly offensively, Deonte is turning it over far more and assisting far less, which makes them basically a wash on offense.

That should not be the case. It absolutely should not be. Deonte is vastly more talented than Derrick. But when you factor in that he leads the team in fouls committed/40 minutes and in terms of players in forward roles on defense he is least likely to get to a rebound, it's pretty easy to say Derrick would be earning minutes over Deonte for a reason.

That is, if they played the same position, or were competing for the same minutes. Which they don't, and they aren't.

Winner winner, chicken dinner

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 01:36:00 PM
Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

Pretty obvious answer.

If it is being taught and the other guys are understanding it.....

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 01:36:00 PM
Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

Honestly, I blame Derrick.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 01:42:25 PM
Honestly, I blame Derrick.

Well played, Ammo!  This board needed a laugh...

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 01:40:43 PM
Winner winner, chicken dinner

This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

Again, I'd love to hear what type of numbers people think Derrick would be posting if he were playing 10-16 minutes per game broken up in 4 segments of PT.  We can look to his sophomore year where he averaged 13 minutes a game and see his O-Rating was an 85.7.

When a guy gets a consistent 30 minutes a game, night in and night out - that is the optimum type of environment for posting legitimate numbers - as far as what you really have in a player.  When you get down into the 10-15 minute range, looking at stats does become a very shaky extrapolation to assume those would bear themselves out if the player were playing 30 a night.

If you want to look for the culprits "taking" Deonte's minutes, you need to look at Juan and Cohen.

Deonte was used EXCLUSIVELY at the four this season. Deonte didn't play the three ever. Derrick Wilson had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, to do with Deonte's playing time.

People get so wrapped up in "Derrick sucks, give his minutes to Deonte" that they forget the make up of our team. We only had four players who could play the post positions: Steve, Juan, Cohen, and Deonte. Wojo never played any of those three on the court at the same time. Or if he did, it wasn't for very long.

Basically our team was split into two groups:

Group A (guards): Duane, Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, JjJ
Group B (forwards): Deonte, Cohen, Juan, Steve

Usually there is a Group C (wings) who are players from group A/B who go both ways. But because of how short our bench was, we didn't have this luxury. The minutes of players in Group A have nothing to do with the minutes of players in Group B and vice-versa.

The four and the five positions are the most foul prone in all of basketball. And Deonte was our most foul prone player (4.96 fouls per 40). If Wojo played Deonte at the three (or Juan or Cohen for that matter) it would have been a huge risk that could have cost us games.

So if you accept the premise that Wojo only played Cohen and Deonte at the four for fear of foul trouble, than they only people "stealing" minutes from Deonte was Juan and Cohen. Deonte played more than Cohen. And I don't think anyone here will try to make an argument that Deonte was playing better than Juan this season.

Derrick has NOTHING to do with this debate.

If you want to argue about Derrick taking minutes from JjJ or Dawson, sure. But Derrick didn't "take" a single minute from Deonte.

This is why Luke coming in was so exciting. Cohen and Deonte would have most likely been freed from being used exclusively at the four. They could have shifted to their natural positions at the three. I was hoping and predicting that Deonte would break out in the second half and become the starting wing.

Quote from: dgies9156 on December 10, 2014, 12:26:56 PM
One of the interesting things about this debate is the aforementioned "who brought about" the Burton transfer.

That is the big question.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 01:56:07 PM
This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

Again, I'd love to hear what type of numbers people think Derrick would be posting if he were playing 10-16 minutes per game broken up in 4 segments of PT.  We can look to his sophomore year where he averaged 13 minutes a game and see his O-Rating was an 85.7.

When a guy gets a consistent 30 minutes a game, night in and night out - that is the optimum type of environment for posting legitimate numbers - as far as what you really have in a player.  When you get down into the 10-15 minute range, looking at stats does become a very shaky extrapolation to assume those would bear themselves out if the player were playing 30 a night.

Yeah, let's look at Derrick's numbers 2 years ago, because, you know, players don't get better over the course of a college career!  Let's look at Derrick's numbers 2 years ago but Deonte's today.  Makes perfect sense.

You're forgetting the most important part, that Wojo isn't determining who should be playing just based on in game production (which, as brewcity pointed out, Derrick is outperforming Deonte, but let's ignore those facts hey?).  He's basing it on what he sees for roughly 2-3 hours every single day.  Do you think Deonte's absolutely tearing up practice, but Wojo (and Buzz) are just like, "Nah, I don't want to play the guy?"  I highly doubt it, but hey, you know better than both Wojo and Buzz so maybe.  Or maybe they're only letting Deonte play 2-3 minute segments in practice too, so he looks bad too.  Yeah, that must be it.

Makes no sense, but whatever.  You know more than Wojo and Buzz.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 01:56:07 PM
This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

So Wojo understands this...right?

BIG PICTURE:

How often do we think college coaches have better players riding on the bench, and fail to play them?

Right now, it appears (to some people) that MU has had 2 such coaches in a row.

Seem unlikely, right?

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 10, 2014, 02:07:53 PM
So Wojo understands this...right?

He was a coaches pet.  Just like Derrick.  So...no.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 02:09:42 PM
BIG PICTURE:

How often do we think college coaches have better players riding on the bench, and fail to play them?

Right now, it appears (to some people) that MU has had 2 such coaches in a row.

Seem unlikely, right?

Damn, Ammo.  Common sense and logic?  With this crowd?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 01:56:39 PM
If you want to look for the culprits "taking" Deonte's minutes, you need to look at Juan and Cohen.

Deonte was used EXCLUSIVELY at the four this season. Deonte didn't play the three ever. Derrick Wilson had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, to do with Deonte's playing time.

People get so wrapped up in "Derrick sucks, give his minutes to Deonte" that they forget the make up of our team. We only had four players who could play the post positions: Steve, Juan, Cohen, and Deonte. Wojo never played any of those three on the court at the same time. Or if he did, it wasn't for very long.

Basically our team was split into two groups:

Group A (guards): Duane, Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, JjJ
Group B (forwards): Deonte, Cohen, Juan, Steve

Usually there is a Group C (wings) who are players from group A/B who go both ways. But because of how short our bench was, we didn't have this luxury. The minutes of players in Group A have nothing to do with the minutes of players in Group B and vice-versa.

The four and the five positions are the most foul prone in all of basketball. And Deonte was our most foul prone player (4.96 fouls per 40). If Wojo played Deonte at the three (or Juan or Cohen for that matter) it would have been a huge risk that could have cost us games.

So if you accept the premise that Wojo only played Cohen and Deonte at the four for fear of foul trouble, than they only people "stealing" minutes from Deonte was Juan and Cohen. Deonte played more than Cohen. And I don't think anyone here will try to make an argument that Deonte was playing better than Juan this season.

Derrick has NOTHING to do with this debate.

If you want to argue about Derrick taking minutes from JjJ or Dawson, sure. But Derrick didn't "take" a single minute from Deonte.

This is why Luke coming in was so exciting. Cohen and Deonte would have most likely been freed from being used exclusively at the four. They could have shifted to their natural positions at the three. I was hoping and predicting that Deonte would break out in the second half and become the starting wing.

I was thinking something along these lines.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but isn't the prevailing theory that zone defenses don't foul as much as man to man?  If that's the case, Burton's foul rate is even more ridiculous.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 02:13:34 PM
I was thinking something along these lines.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but isn't the prevailing theory that zone defenses don't foul as much as man to man?  If that's the case, Burton's foul rate is even more ridiculous.

To be fair, a quarter of his fouls came when we were playing man to man at the beginning of the season.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 02:16:49 PM
To be fair, a quarter of his fouls came when we were playing man to man at the beginning of the season.

My completely unscientific observation is that most of Burton's fouls occurred in the immediate aftermath of one of his patented completely bone-headed offensive turnovers.

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Marquette faithful wince at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Burton's absolute lack of discipline

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 10, 2014, 02:28:46 PM
Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Ners broke his latest Derrick Moratorium - a day after he made it.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 10, 2014, 02:28:46 PM
Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Also blaming Derrick for Burton's transfer.
Yes, really.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 10, 2014, 02:28:46 PM
Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

He truly is the team's whipping boy. At least with the team's on the court performance, arguments could be made. But here?

I was wondering... While staying at a Holiday Inn Express, I dreamt I was a Div 1 BB coach. Does that qualify  about the same as playing high school BB ??   just askin'... ;D

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 10, 2014, 02:28:46 PM
Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

Quote from: keefe on December 10, 2014, 02:27:18 PM
My completely unscientific observation is that most of Burton's fouls occurred in the immediate aftermath of one of his patented completely bone-headed offensive turnovers.

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Marquette faithful wince at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Burton's absolute lack of discipline

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Ners winces at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Derrick's absolute lack of discipline

Quote from: brandx on December 10, 2014, 02:57:24 PM
A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Ners winces at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Derrick's absolute lack of SHOOTING

Fixed it. It's all about shooting, bro.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2014, 02:37:48 PM
Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

   That's Real Defence

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2014, 02:37:48 PM
Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

Not just MU, my sources say every ncaa transfer is due to Derrick this year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 01:36:00 PM
Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff? 

What elements do we analyze to determine this??

Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 10, 2014, 03:08:34 PM
Not just MU, my sources say every ncaa transfer is due to Derrick this year.

This year, and the last two years....

Quote from: Loose Ellenson Cannon on December 10, 2014, 03:14:22 PM

What elements do we analyze to determine this??

If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it seems like there are a vocal few that have unrealistic expectations for this season and are acting hurt every time things don't go according to their plan for how this season should go. This season always was going to be a work in progress for the players and the coaches and to expect anything different has caused some people to turn against the team and make wild accusations against Wojo. There's nothing wrong with short-term struggle providing it leads to long-term success. We as fans were lucky that the transition from Crean to Brent went as well as it did. If anything, this year could be shedding a little light on why last year went the way it did.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

I'm calling you out on this......almost to a person we've all said that line-up would be perfect.  I know I have said 72 times in other threads that with Luke, Burton becomes one of the best players if not the best player on the team.  You can't hold a line-up that can't happen against Wojo.  No one is arguing when Luke plays that Derrick should have the same number of minutes, LITERALLY NO ONE.

The ONLY line-up with the roster pre-Luke that works without Derrick and with Burton is
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

The problem with that line up is that Burton's weakness in the zone exacerbates Teve's weakness and the lack of a rim protector.  Additionally, you are playing 3 out of the four guys that can play the 4 and the 5.  Was Wojo suppose to have one sub for 3 positions?  You certainly can't play JjJ and Burton together.  And Cohen has only been good in the zone when he is up top not on the wing.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

Maybe it would have been. We'll never know because Deonte decided to leave. Luke's presence might have helped Deonte on offense. All the more reason this is so disappointing.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

What makes you think that you know better than both Buzz, Wojo and their entire staffs?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

My advice is to quit trying then.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 02:29:53 PM

Ners broke his latest Derrick Moratorium - a day after he made it.

About as long as yours lasted, Sunshine. Practice what you preach.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 03:45:20 PM
I'm calling you out on this......almost to a person we've all said that line-up would be perfect.  I know I have said 72 times in other threads that with Luke, Burton becomes one of the best players if not the best player on the team.  You can't hold a line-up that can't happen against Wojo.  No one is arguing when Luke plays that Derrick should have the same number of minutes, LITERALLY NO ONE.

The ONLY line-up with the roster pre-Luke that works without Derrick and with Burton is
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

The problem with that line up is that Burton's weakness in the zone exacerbates Teve's weakness and the lack of a rim protector.  Additionally, you are playing 3 out of the four guys that can play the 4 and the 5.  Was Wojo suppose to have one sub for 3 positions?  You certainly can't play JjJ and Burton together.  And Cohen has only been good in the zone when he is up top not on the wing.

As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 04:07:55 PM
As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

This is really too much.

Now Wojo is a terrible coach.  Ok Ners.  Got it.

Delusional arrogance I believe was a term used in the last several days in regards to you.  Fits like a glove.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 04:07:55 PM
As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

I don't have KenPom access, but the projected 1-17 in Big East was after Nebraska Omaha, not the current projection...yes?  What is the current projection?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 10, 2014, 04:07:13 PM
If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

On a team as offensively challenged as this current MU team - I'd much rather have Deonte taking bad/forced shots than Derrick challenging defenders going to the rim.  Sorry.  Derrick doesn't even rank i the Top 500 players for Assist Rate...so let's not act as if he's creating all these assists.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 04:07:55 PM
As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

If Deonte doesn't know why he's not playing, then he's going to struggle to find PT no matter where he goes.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 04:12:33 PM
I don't have KenPom access, but the projected 1-17 in Big East was after Nebraska Omaha, not the current projection...yes?  What is the current projection?

Current projection improved to 2-16.  We benefitted from Providence losing to Brown and Boston College the last two games - so that has become a projected win now.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 04:14:23 PM
Current projection improved to 2-16.  We benefitted from Providence losing to Brown and Boston College the last two games - so that has become a projected win now.

Do you think that's what our record will be at the end of the season in conference?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 10, 2014, 04:07:13 PM
If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

Technically speaking, is a Burton turnover really that different than the majority of shots thrown up there from JJJ, Juan, Steve, and Derrick this year which result in a defensive rebound?

I think Ners is simply pointing out that when half of the team looks as if their main goal is to dent rims and break backboards with the bricks they're shooting that even a forced Burton possession has about the same chance of being successful.

These guys make Chris Otule look like he had great touch.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
Technically speaking, is a Burton turnover really that different than the majority of shots thrown up there from JJJ, Juan, Steve, and Derrick this year which result in a defensive rebound?

I think Ners is simply pointing out that when half of the team looks as if their main goal is to dent rims and break backboards with the bricks they're shooting that even a forced Burton possession has about the same chance of being successful.

These guys make Chris Otule look like he had great touch.

Think about what you just wrote.

You have half the team listed as rim-denting bricklayers.  And STILL Deonte was getting the minutes he was getting.  What does that tell you about what the coaches thought of his overall ability to contribute to the team?  Are the coaches just wrong?

Additionally, if what you wrote is true, then do you and/or Ners really expect one player to make ANY difference at all on a team that is that poor? 

Quote from: mu03eng on December 10, 2014, 04:15:23 PM
Do you think that's what our record will be at the end of the season in conference?

I don't think it will be that bad, no.  Nor should it be - even with the loss of Burton.  The point was, with what we had and the lineups that were chosen - it wasn't boding well for the remainder of the season. I'd have preferred to see both Burton and Dawson get a lot more run than they were given.  But, doesn't matter now.  Wojo now has a roster of guys who have bought into what he's selling.  As he said, the team seems to have galvanized.  We'll see.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 10, 2014, 04:02:46 PM
About as long as yours lasted, Sunshine. Practice what you preach.

Wow. Willie has reading comprehension problems again.

Show me one time where I have engaged in this debate over the past 24 hours. Just one.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 10, 2014, 04:44:14 PM
Think about what you just wrote.

You have half the team listed as rim-denting bricklayers.  And STILL Deonte was getting the minutes he was getting.  What does that tell you about what the coaches thought of his overall ability to contribute to the team?  Are the coaches just wrong?

Additionally, if what you wrote is true, then do you and/or Ners really expect one player to make ANY difference at all on a team that is that poor? 

Coaching staffs are wrong all the time.  Jay Cutler is starting on the Bears (sorry Bears fans).

Wojo's decision is his decision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong simply because he made it.  I personally think this is a coaching error.  Every coach has them.

Yes, on a team this bad with virtually no chance of making the NCAAT, getting one of your highest ceiling players on the team  with two more years of eligibility minutes does make a difference.  It happens every year in MLB when rosters are expanded and non contending teams get prospects playing time.  Why is Blake Bortles starting in Jacksonville?

It's ok that you disagree with me, but if what Wojo decides to do automatically makes him right then we should pull the plug on this message board entirely.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 04:59:37 PM
Coaching staffs are wrong all the time.  Jay Cutler is starting on the Bears (sorry Bears fans).

Wojo's decision is his decision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong simply because he made it.  I personally think this is a coaching error.  Every coach has them.

Yes, on a team this bad with virtually no chance of making the NCAAT, getting one of your highest ceiling players on the team  with two more years of eligibility minutes does make a difference.  It happens every year in MLB when rosters are expanded and non contending teams get prospects playing time.  Why is Blake Bortles starting in Jacksonville?

It's ok that you disagree with me, but if what Wojo decides to do automatically makes him right then we should pull the plug on this message board entirely.

So MU has had 2 straight coaches who can't evaluate the talent on their own team?

We've had some bad luck.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 05:15:24 PM
So MU has had 2 straight coaches who can't evaluate the talent on their own team?

We've had some bad luck.

You had to do quite a bit of imaginary connecting of the proverbial dots to pull that out of my statement.  Never once did I mention our previous coaching staff.  How did you arrive at that conclusion?  Basic reading comprehension alone would suggest you didn't actually read what I posted.

I don't follow.

I don't think Buzz utilized Burton poorly last year as a freshman with Gardner, Otule and Jamil Wilson all seeing significant minutes in the forward position.  Of all the things that transpired last year, I think Buzz's utilization of Burton as instant offense in short spurts was one of his better decisions last season.

I'm not commenting on the Derrick/Dawson debate so please don't lump me into that crowd.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 04:59:37 PM
Coaching staffs are wrong all the time.  Jay Cutler is starting on the Bears (sorry Bears fans).

Wojo's decision is his decision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong simply because he made it.  I personally think this is a coaching error.  Every coach has them.

Yes, on a team this bad with virtually no chance of making the NCAAT, getting one of your highest ceiling players on the team  with two more years of eligibility minutes does make a difference.  It happens every year in MLB when rosters are expanded and non contending teams get prospects playing time.  Why is Blake Bortles starting in Jacksonville?

It's ok that you disagree with me, but if what Wojo decides to do automatically makes him right then we should pull the plug on this message board entirely.

I don't know if Wojo was "right", but I will defer to his judgement on these kinds of matters over any poster on this board.  It just smacks of complete and utter arrogance that anybody who posts on here actually thinks they have better insight into what this team needs than the coaching staff.  It is very hard to take that kind of disregard for reality seriously. 

no, we have just had more than our share of dipshit posters the past 2 years...

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 05:15:24 PM
So MU has had 2 straight coaches who can't evaluate the talent on their own team?

We've had some bad luck.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 05:18:54 PM
You had to do quite a bit of imaginary connecting of the proverbial dots to pull that out of my statement.  Never once did I mention our previous coaching staff.  How did you arrive at that conclusion?  Basic reading comprehension alone would suggest you didn't actually read what I posted.

I don't follow.

I don't think Buzz utilized Burton poorly last year as a freshman with Gardner, Otule and Jamil Wilson all seeing significant minutes in the forward position.  Of all the things that transpired last year, I think Buzz's utilization of Burton as instant offense in short spurts was one of his better decisions last season.

I'm not commenting on the Derrick/Dawson debate so please don't lump me into that crowd.

Understood. Sorry, I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush.  

Last season I heard over and over again that the coach didn't know how talented (insert players) were, and they needed more minutes. (not from you, but from some others)

Now, Burton transfers, and I read that Wojo doesn't know how talented Burton and/or Dawson is, and doesn't play them enough minutes.

From a big picture perspective, I find it highly unlikely that these coaches have Steamin' Willie Beamen sitting on the bench waiting to blow up, but they are just too stupid to realize it.

Deonte looked LOST when he was on the floor. Not bad at basketball, but LOST at basketball. The potential is obviously there, but it's hard for me to criticize a coach for not playing a guy who doesn't seem to be executing what the team is trying to do.

In a game of 1v1, I'd take Deonte over anybody. In a 5v5 40min. game? Well, Deonte has some pretty big holes in his game right now, which limits his minutes.

Seems pretty basic to me.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 10, 2014, 05:34:44 PM
I don't know if Wojo was "right", but I will defer to his judgement on these kinds of matters over any poster on this board.  It just smacks of complete and utter arrogance that anybody who posts on here actually thinks they have better insight into what this team needs than the coaching staff.  It is very hard to take that kind of disregard for reality seriously. 

I don't view it as a disregard for reality at all.

It's a matter of opinion.  Do you struggle with opposing viewpoints?

Coaches in all sports get fired all the time for what others deem as bad decisions or poor performance.  The vast majority of us on Scoop are not making those decisions yet we still have opinions in regards to everything that is Marquette basketball.  What's the point of having a message board where people post OPINIONS?  :o

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 10, 2014, 05:39:49 PM
Understood. Sorry, I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush.  

Last season I heard over and over again that the coach didn't know how talented (insert players) were, and they needed more minutes. (not from you, but from some others)

Now, Burton transfers, and I read that Wojo doesn't know how talented Burton and/or Dawson is, and doesn't play them enough minutes.

From a big picture perspective, I find it highly unlikely that these coaches have Steamin' Willie Beamen sitting on the bench waiting to blow up, but they are just too stupid to realize it.

Deonte looked LOST when he was on the floor. Not bad at basketball, but LOST at basketball. The potential is obviously there, but it's hard for me to criticize a coach for not playing a guy who doesn't seem to be executing what the team is trying to do.

In a game of 1v1, I'd take Deonte over anybody. In a 5v5 40min. game? Well, Deonte has some pretty big holes in his game right now, which limits his minutes.

Seems pretty basic to me.

Maybe Deonte is LOST period with what is still a very recent and personal loss.  At that point it's critical of both the coaching staff and player to communicate effectively in all aspects not just basketball.  It's a delicate situation that I think 2-3 years of head coaching experience probably yields a different result for Wojo and Deonte.

I'm sorry too and thanks for deescalating a misunderstanding.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 10, 2014, 05:34:44 PM
I don't know if Wojo was "right", but I will defer to his judgement on these kinds of matters over any poster on this board.  It just smacks of complete and utter arrogance that anybody who posts on here actually thinks they have better insight into what this team needs than the coaching staff.  It is very hard to take that kind of disregard for reality seriously. 

Is Bill Belicheck not considered one of the great football coaches of our time?  Did he have it "right" playing Bledsoe over Brady?  I mean, come on, he saw them play in practice every day.

Did Mike Holmgren have it "right" starting Don Majikowski over Brett Farve?  I mean, come on, he saw them play in practice every day.

And please stop with the whole self righteousness.  It isn't arrogance to have a different viewpoint than that of a coach of your favorite team.  Fans second guess coaches ALL the time.  Coaches get fired by GMs.  Coaches don't always have it right.  Included back to back coaching staffs.

I know, I know I get ridiculed when I say it isn't hard to see how Wojo could have a bias and favorable view of Derrick - given he shares a similar fabric.  Coaches aren't immune to developing a bias toward a player they like, even if the production suggests they don't belong on the field.  They get a longer leash, and more benefit of the doubt than does a player a coach may not be as fond of personally.  #humannature

Where is all this "we should have been playing only with 2 guard lineups" thinking coming from? I think I read a majority of threads around here, and I don't really believe I ever saw this being a point before the transfers came up. If it is a problem MU is playing 3 guard lineups, why is it just coming out now? I recall many people believing Wojo would employ a 3 guard set before the season even started, and I'm not sure I can recall a lot of negative talk about that strategy.

It seems like it's only now a point of contention as an argument about how Wojo could have gotten Deonte more minutes. Which, if you ask me, is pretty unfair monday-morning qb'ing.

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 10, 2014, 05:59:52 PM
Where is all this "we should have been playing only with 2 guard lineups" thinking coming from? I think I read a majority of threads around here, and I don't really believe I ever saw this being a point before the transfers came up. If it is a problem MU is playing 3 guard lineups, why is it just coming out now? I recall many people believing Wojo would employ a 3 guard set before the season even started, and I'm not sure I can recall a lot of negative talk about that strategy.

It seems like it's only now a point of contention as an argument about how Wojo could have gotten Deonte more minutes. Which, if you ask me, is pretty unfair monday-morning qb'ing.

There have been many here, including some of Derrick's most staunch supporters, who were baffled as to why he'd be playing alongside Carlino and Duane.  With 2 other primary ball handlers on the floor, it was shocking to many to find him still playing 30+ minutes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 05:56:14 PM
Is Bill Belicheck not considered one of the great football coaches of our time?  Did he have it "right" playing Bledsoe over Brady?  I mean, come on, he saw them play in practice every day.

Did Mike Holmgren have it "right" starting Don Majikowski over Brett Farve?  I mean, come on, he saw them play in practice every day.

And please stop with the whole self righteousness.  It isn't arrogance to have a different viewpoint than that of a coach of your favorite team.  Fans second guess coaches ALL the time.  Coaches get fired by GMs.  Coaches don't always have it right.  Included back to back coaching staffs.

I know, I know I get ridiculed when I say it isn't hard to see how Wojo could have a bias and favorable view of Derrick - given he shares a similar fabric.  Coaches aren't immune to developing a bias toward a player they like, even if the production suggests they don't belong on the field.  They get a longer leash, and more benefit of the doubt than does a player a coach may not be as fond of personally.  #humannature

Very Chico-esque.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 03:30:17 PM
If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

Ners,

You can't possibly be telling me that you think it is a good idea to play 3/4 of literally the only people on your roster who can play the four and five postion at the same time. Especially when one of those players is as foul prone as Burton. That lineup could spell disaster. Would it have been more effective offesnively? Almost definitely. Would have been passable defensively? Sure. But what happens when Deonte, Steve, or Juan pick up two quick fouls? What happens when two of the pick up two quick fouls?

You can't always play your five best players at the same time (which I don't know if Deonte was even truly on that list this season). You have five different positions that need to be covered at all times. Deonte's size and our lack of size made it necessary to play him exclusively at the four. Derrick Wilson had absolutely nothing to do with Deonte's transfer.

After Luke was eligible, sure, Deonte could have taken some or even most of Derrick's minutes. In fact, I expected him to. But he decided to leave before that could happen.

I don't know why Deonte is transferring, but it sure as hell has nothing to do with Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 05:48:13 PM
I don't view it as a disregard for reality at all.

It's a matter of opinion.  Do you struggle with opposing viewpoints?

Coaches in all sports get fired all the time for what others deem as bad decisions or poor performance.  The vast majority of us on Scoop are not making those decisions yet we still have opinions in regards to everything that is Marquette basketball.  What's the point of having a message board where people post OPINIONS?  :o

Don't take it so personally. I am one of the guys here who disagrees with you on most things MU. So what? We all have our opinions and each is as valid as the next.

Doesn't make them all correct - obviously you are wrong when you don't agree with me - but personally I like to read different opinions.  And sometimes they make me alter my position. My problems with Ners isn't his opinion on the Derrick/Dawson issue. It is that he continues to say the same thing over and over and over and over.........

The only people standing in front of Burton's playing time last semester was Juan and Cohen. Cohen got less minutes than Deonte and Juan was head and shoulders better than Deonte.

So either:

1) Deonte isn't self aware and thinks he deserved more playing time than Juan
2) Deonte thinks he deserves some of Cohen's minutes
4) Deonte doesn't understand why Wojo was using him exclusively at the four. This could be on Deonte or on Wojo for poor communication.
5) This doesn't actually doesn't have anything to do with playing time.

nm

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 04:49:34 PM
Wow. Willie has reading comprehension problems again.

Show me one time where I have engaged in this debate over the past 24 hours. Just one.

Here are 3. Your posts at about 11:30, 2:10 and 2:29 in this thread. Comprende amigo? What an amnesiac!!!!!
Mr. non-credible. And no, you are the one that fails to comprehend.

Practice what you preach.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 10, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
Here are 3. Your posts at about 11:30, 2:10 and 2:29 in this thread. Comprende amigo? What an amnesiac!!!!!
Mr. non-credible. And no, you are the one that fails to comprehend.

Practice what you preach.

LOL...two of them were calling Ners out on his breaking of the moratorium and one was a joke.

Originally I was kinda joking about the lack of reading comprehension thing.  But now...well...maybe you'll get some new picture books for Christmas.  Be sure to break out the crayons and write Santa a letter soon.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 10, 2014, 03:08:34 PM
Not just MU, my sources say every ncaa transfer is due to Derrick this year.

NAME YOUR SOURCES!!!

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 10, 2014, 07:10:53 PM

LOL...two of them were calling Ners out on his breaking of the moratorium and one was a joke.

Originally I was kinda joking about the lack of reading comprehension thing.  But now...well...maybe you'll get some new picture books for Christmas.  Be sure to break out the crayons and write Santa a letter soon.

Well played

LOL

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 04:59:37 PM
Coaching staffs are wrong all the time.  Jay Cutler is starting on the Bears (sorry Bears fans).

Wojo's decision is his decision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong simply because he made it.  I personally think this is a coaching error.  Every coach has them.

Yes, on a team this bad with virtually no chance of making the NCAAT, getting one of your highest ceiling players on the team  with two more years of eligibility minutes does make a difference.  It happens every year in MLB when rosters are expanded and non contending teams get prospects playing time.  Why is Blake Bortles starting in Jacksonville?

It's ok that you disagree with me, but if what Wojo decides to do automatically makes him right then we should pull the plug on this message board entirely.

Comparing NFL starting QBs to college basketball players is pretty ridiculous. That said, if the remaining MU players are Jay Cutler then Burton and Dawson must be Jimmy Clausen and David Fales.

What kind of message would it send to JJJ, Cohen, Duane, etc when they consistently outperform Burton in practice but he takes their game minutes because of his alleged "higher ceiling?"

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
Comparing NFL starting QBs to college basketball players is pretty ridiculous. That said, if the remaining MU players are Jay Cutler then Burton and Dawson must be Jimmy Clausen and David Fales.

What kind of message would it send to JJJ, Cohen, Duane, etc when they consistently outperform Burton in practice but he takes their game minutes because of his alleged "higher ceiling?"

Huh?  Who cares how the guys play in practice if it isn't translating to games.  And I'm not referring to Cohen or Duane here.  Furthermore, there was no reason for Deonte to have to eat into Duane, Cohen or JJJ's minutes.  He aint a 1/2 - he's a 3/4 combo/.  Perfect for the role Derrick's been playing.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 04:59:37 PM


Yes, on a team this bad with virtually no chance of making the NCAAT, getting one of your highest ceiling players on the team  with two more years of eligibility minutes does make a difference.  It happens every year in MLB when rosters are expanded and non contending teams get prospects playing time.  

A couple things here.

First, do we all assume that Wojo went into this season convinced his team had virtually no shot at an NCAA bid? Coaches are wired to think they can achieve the improbable. Even if they say publicly (as Buzz and Lou Holtz and many others did) that "we aren't very good," they might actually believe, "Hey, until somebody proves otherwise, we can pull this off." Maybe Wojo was thinking that if they could just "hold serve" until Fischer got eligible and then get on a bit of a roll in the conference to win 11 or 12 games, they could be the surprise team in the league. I mean, the Big East coaches picked us to tie with Butler ... and now it's obvious that Butler is WAAAY better than the coaches thought. I wonder if the Butler coach went into the season feeling his team had virtually no shot at an NCAA bid.

Second, we are at the "April" of this basketball season, not the "September," when baseball teams expand their rosters and non-contending teams get prospects playing time. In April, even the Cubs and Pirates and Royals think they've got a shot ... and some years, they stun the baseball world and they actually do have a shot.

Coaches are wired to think, "Somehow, I'm going to find a way to win." Not, "Well, even though the season has just started, I know we're gonna suck."

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
Comparing NFL starting QBs to college basketball players is pretty ridiculous. That said, if the remaining MU players are Jay Cutler then Burton and Dawson must be Jimmy Clausen and David Fales.

What kind of message would it send to JJJ, Cohen, Duane, etc when they consistently outperform Burton in practice but he takes their game minutes because of his alleged "higher ceiling?"

Because games are what matter.

I haven't seen a nationally televised practice ever.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
Huh?  Who cares how the guys play in practice if it isn't translating to games.  And I'm not referring to Cohen or Duane here.  Furthermore, there was no reason for Deonte to have to eat into Duane, Cohen or JJJ's minutes.  He aint a 1/2 - he's a 3/4 combo/.  Perfect for the role Derrick's been playing.

As someone who has played basketball, I can tell you that it doesn't sit well with guys when someone is outperformed in practice but still gets minutes when the lights are on based off of potential that he isn't showing. I'm surprised you didn't now that  ;)

Honest question, Ners: Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:16:19 PM

Because games are what matter.

I haven't seen a nationally televised practice ever.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 10:16:36 PM
As someone who has played basketball, I can tell you that it doesn't sit well with guys when someone is outperformed in practice but still gets minutes when the lights are on based off of potential that he isn't showing. I'm surprised you didn't now that  ;)

Honest question, Ners: Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

That goes both ways - guys don't like sitting behind a player that is historically bad at their position once the lights come on and the games begin.

As for Burton - last year - we didn't have Carlino or Duane to handle ball handling.  Derrick was de facto PG and needed to play (albeit more than any of us wanted.)

This season, we have 2 very good options in both Duane and Carlino to handle the 1 and 2.  It isn't critical to have Derrick on the floor this season - or I should say - it wasn't critical.  Wojo wanted our guys to kick out on their drives against WI - if you are Duane and Carlino - and you have Derrick to kick out to at the 3 point line - do you do it?

Burton doesn't strike me as a Wojo player.  Wojo is the try hard, harder, hustle guy - he's not going to identify as well with a guy like Burton who has a ton of natural ability and isn't Mr. Scrappy.

Usually players don't regress in their development, but Burton certainly didn't look as good this year under Wojo as he did Buzz as a freshman.  I suspect that is a combination of grieving his Mom as well as not clicking with Wojo.

Big loss for MU regardless.  Burton is a major talent.  But as always the program and player move on...for better or worse.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 10:17:55 PM
That's a pretty ignorant statement.

What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:31:31 PM
How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

Game.  Set.  Match.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:31:31 PM
How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

First of all, stop comparing college athletics to the NFL. They're completely different. Also, Charles Woodson is a horrible example because he was an established veteran, All-Pro player with a big-money contract. That's different than being a soph who "showed some flashes" as a freshman.

Nice try but actually, I'm a high talent, high effort guy which means that I don't like seeing people waste their talents but half-assing their way through things.


JJJ plays because he's a solid defender who brings energy and, despite his low shooting percentage, is an outside threat.  

Steve plays because he's the tallest guy on the team, he's a decent rebounder and he works hard to get open under the basket.

Derrick plays because he takes care of the ball, is a senior leader and is the team's best defender.

Juan plays because he brings energy, some semblance of size, hits the boards, can score from time to time and understands Wojo's defense.

I'll ask again: What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 10:48:48 PM
First of all, stop comparing college athletics to the NFL. They're completely different. Also, Charles Woodson is a horrible example because he was an established veteran, All-Pro player with a big-money contract. That's different than being a soph who "showed some flashes" as a freshman.

Nice try but actually, I'm a high talent, high effort guy which means that I don't like seeing people waste their talents but half-assing their way through things.


JJJ plays because he's a solid defender who brings energy and, despite his low shooting percentage, is an outside threat.  

Steve plays because he's the tallest guy on the team, he's a decent rebounder and he works hard to get open under the basket.

Derrick plays because he takes care of the ball, is a senior leader and is the team's best defender.

Juan plays because he brings energy, some semblance of size, hits the boards, can score from time to time and understands Wojo's defense.

I'll ask again: What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

Merritt you wouldn't recognize talent if it bit you in the a$$.  I can tell just by your affinity for those who try hard.

And you think JJJ is a solid defender?  Are you kidding?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:31:31 PM
In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

What in god's holy name are you blathering about? What "producer" was sitting on the bench for MU? How do you know that player was a "producer?" Keep in mind that a "producer" is someone who actually produces, not someone who should produce.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:52:00 PM
Merritt you wouldn't recognize talent if it bit you in the a$$.  I can tell just by your affinity for those who try hard.

And you think JJJ is a solid defender?  Are you kidding?

Yes, I like people who try hard. It's truly one of my biggest faults and something that I'm working hard to overcome. If only I had a greater affinity for talented people who were lazy! Then, and only then, would I be able to recognize that all of those bite marks in my a$$ are actually "talent."

Here's one thing that I can most definitely recognize: You consider yourself to be very intelligent which means that you lack self-awareness.

By the way, you still didn't answer my question.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 10, 2014, 10:54:47 PM
What in god's holy name are you blathering about? What "producer" was sitting on the bench for MU? How do you know that player was a "producer?" Keep in mind that a "producer" is someone who actually produces, not someone who should produce.

Well let's get real, we've had one guy playing max minutes that has "produced" some of the most abysmal offensive numbers ever seen in high major ball.  I didn't recall seeing Derrick go for 23 (in 22 minutes of playing time) against Xavier in our last game of the season last year...

This is where you and others in the pro-Derrick crowd lose people.  Now this year the D-Stats say he is our worst defender (but now those stats don't matter.)  His assist rate isn't in the Top 500 of college basketball players.  There is a major production problem with a guy who is getting 30 minutes a game.

Sorry.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
Huh?  Who cares how the guys play in practice if it isn't translating to games.  And I'm not referring to Cohen or Duane here.  Furthermore, there was no reason for Deonte to have to eat into Duane, Cohen or JJJ's minutes.  He aint a 1/2 - he's a 3/4 combo/.  Perfect for the role Derrick's been playing.

Ners,

For the upteenth time, playing Deonte in Derrick's spot would have exposed us in the post. Even if Burton was the better player, the depth chart needed him to play in the post. There is no argument here. Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer.

Ners, come on.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:16:19 PM

Because games are what matter.

I haven't seen a nationally televised practice ever.

Matty,

I like you. You bring fair, unbiased opinions based on sound basketball logic. But this is a page straight out of the "Steve Lavin school of coaching."

To dismiss practice and adopt an attitude of "talent plays" is a very short term view of success. Sure you'll get some success right away, but your player development is likely to stagnate. What motivation does a talented player have to listen to his coach if he knows that because he is talented he will always get playing time? Why should he practice his free throw shooting? Why should he work on his fundamentals? Why should he upgrade his defense? Coach is gonna play him no matter what. And the less talented players, what motivation do they have to try if they know coach is going to sit them, even if they work harder than the other players?

Sure you sometimes are blessed with great kids who are both talented and self motivated. They work hard not because they are afraid of the bench, but because they want to get better. At the height of Buzz' tenure, he had several players with these attitudes. These kids are going to be superstars. But as you pointed out yourself, college basketball is full of egos. Many of the talented kids don't want to put in the work and its a coach's job to make them put in the work.

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Playing talent obviously has its place. Its entirely possible that Wojo relies too much on practice and not enough on natural talent. But emphasizing hard work over talent is key to long term success. Sure, some talented players may rage quit because they don't want to earn it practice, those are costs you have to absorb. It will work out better for your program in the long run.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 11:36:01 PM
Ners,

For the upteenth time, playing Deonte in Derrick's spot would have exposed us in the post. Even if Burton was the better player, the depth chart needed him to play in the post. There is no argument here. Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer.

Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.  And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 11:53:04 PM

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Tark??

Quote from: PandTandMand... on December 10, 2014, 11:43:07 PM
Ners, come on.

Sorry PTM. 

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 10:31:31 PM
a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

It's my understanding that pirates at sea, in fact, do not pay feel obligated to actually pay for p<ssy. I think it is considered a perk of the job.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2014, 11:53:04 PM
Matty,

I like you. You bring fair, unbiased opinions based on sound basketball logic. But this is a page straight out of the "Steve Lavin school of coaching."

To dismiss practice and adopt an attitude of "talent plays" is a very short term view of success. Sure you'll get some success right away, but your player development is likely to stagnate. What motivation does a talented player have to listen to his coach if he knows that because he is talented he will always get playing time? Why should he practice his free throw shooting? Why should he work on his fundamentals? Why should he upgrade his defense? Coach is gonna play him no matter what. And the less talented players, what motivation do they have to try if they know coach is going to sit them, even if they work harder than the other players?

Sure you sometimes are blessed with great kids who are both talented and self motivated. They work hard not because they are afraid of the bench, but because they want to get better. At the height of Buzz' tenure, he had several players with these attitudes. These kids are going to be superstars. But as you pointed out yourself, college basketball is full of egos. Many of the talented kids don't want to put in the work and its a coach's job to make them put in the work.

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Playing talent obviously has its place. Its entirely possible that Wojo relies too much on practice and not enough on natural talent. But emphasizing hard work over talent is key to long term success. Sure, some talented players may rage quit because they don't want to earn it practice, those are costs you have to absorb. It will work out better for your program in the long run.

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  ;)

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 12:02:04 AM
Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.  And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

Now I get it. You think EVERY MU coach has been an idiot. How could Al McGuire sit Bernard Toone on the bench for Neary - a guy who was exponentially worse of a shooter than Derrick? Why did Hank Raymonds refuse to start Artie Green who was already a playground legend in NY?

You have done a great community service for us all - reminding us that we have had a history of fools for coaches. None are up to your standards and abilities.

Quote from: brandx on December 11, 2014, 01:10:35 AM
Now I get it. You think EVERY MU coach has been an idiot. How could Al McGuire sit Bernard Toone on the bench for Neary - a guy who was exponentially worse of a shooter than Derrick? Why did Hank Raymonds refuse to start Artie Green who was already a playground legend in NY?

You have done a great community service for us all - reminding us that we have had a history of fools for coaches. None are up to your standards and abilities.

Thank you Brandx, because this is where I diverge from Ners.

Based on that logic last year our starting line up would've consisted of Gardner, Otule, Jamil, Mayo and Burton.  Can't see that team in reality being any good.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  ;)

This is absolutely littered with assumptions.

1) How do you know Wojo "fired" Burton?

2) How do you know it wasn't entirely Deonte's decision to leave?

3) How do you know Wojo didn't "fight like hell*" to keep him?

*If by "fight like hell" you mean just go ahead and give him more minutes just because, you know, potential or whatever instead of actually helping the team to win games, then I guess you don't have to answer this.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 10, 2014, 10:30:42 PMBurton doesn't strike me as a Wojo player.  Wojo is the try hard, harder, hustle guy - he's not going to identify as well with a guy like Burton who has a ton of natural ability and isn't Mr. Scrappy.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

You are right that Burton doesn't seem to be a Wojo type player, but you are 1000% wrong as to the reasons why he isn't. If that were true, why would he recruit someone like Henry Ellenson? Wojo has plenty of experience with guys with a ton MORE natural ability than Burton has. The thing is, he wants guys that both have that natural talent (and let's not forget, Wojo had plenty of talent, he was a McDonald's All-American) and are willing to work hard.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

1. For every Jimmy Butler there are a 100 Derrick Roses? Uhh...the best NBA drafts usually only have 2-3 guys with that level of talent, and I have a feeling most of the NBA has to work their ass off to keep their jobs.

3. I agree that Wojo will learn from this one.

4. Again, the question becomes whose decision it was. I definitely don't think it was Wojo's decision. I'm also pretty sure Burton didn't come to this decision on his own.

5. You assume it's as simple as Wojo saying "Please stay" and Burton saying "Okay". Pretty sure there are a lot more moving parts than that.

6. No. If Henry isn't putting in the necessary work, he shouldn't be gifted playing time. Now if he gets a stint and dominates, that's different because you don't take out the guy winning games for you. But what we had was a player who wasn't absorbing the coaching and also wasn't playing particularly well on either end of the court. Burton didn't only play because of practice, but because when he did play, he didn't play well.

I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2014, 07:42:22 AM
I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

You already know the answer to that question, don't you?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2014, 07:46:00 AM
You already know the answer to that question, don't you?

Yep.  Nothing.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 06:59:39 AM
This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  ;)

Yes, Derrick Rose is more talented than Jimmy Butler. He also works his tail off. Michael Beasley has more pure talent than Rose but there's a reason that one of them is an MVP and the other is out of the league at age 25. Teams often give guys like Beasley a chance based on talent alone, but very few of those guys ever make meaningful contributions over the long run.

You think that Coach Cal's players don't work hard? That he just throws together talented high schoolers and they go to Final Fours? You seem to think that people either work hard or have talent. An overwhelming majority of highly successful people, regardless of their line of work, have both ability and a strong work ethic.

No, if Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice, he's not going to get big minutes. Not because it's Wojo being a stubborn, close-minded, egomaniacal coach but because a frosh who doesn't work hard is not going to be very effective in games.

And once again, you still didn't answer my question.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2014, 07:53:07 AM
C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

And unfortunately, Carrawell, Nelson and Diener have never been around gifted athletes much either. ;)

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 06:59:39 AM
This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

You are right that Burton doesn't seem to be a Wojo type player, but you are 1000% wrong as to the reasons why he isn't. If that were true, why would he recruit someone like Henry Ellenson? Wojo has plenty of experience with guys with a ton MORE natural ability than Burton has. The thing is, he wants guys that both have that natural talent (and let's not forget, Wojo had plenty of talent, he was a McDonald's All-American) and are willing to work hard.

1. For every Jimmy Butler there are a 100 Derrick Roses? Uhh...the best NBA drafts usually only have 2-3 guys with that level of talent, and I have a feeling most of the NBA has to work their ass off to keep their jobs.

3. I agree that Wojo will learn from this one.

4. Again, the question becomes whose decision it was. I definitely don't think it was Wojo's decision. I'm also pretty sure Burton didn't come to this decision on his own.

5. You assume it's as simple as Wojo saying "Please stay" and Burton saying "Okay". Pretty sure there are a lot more moving parts than that.

6. No. If Henry isn't putting in the necessary work, he shouldn't be gifted playing time. Now if he gets a stint and dominates, that's different because you don't take out the guy winning games for you. But what we had was a player who wasn't absorbing the coaching and also wasn't playing particularly well on either end of the court. Burton didn't only play because of practice, but because when he did play, he didn't play well.

After reading this post along with some of MattyV's comments, this entire debate could simply come down to this trade-off.  There is not some inherent trade-off between talent and effort, but sometimes there is.

On one end of the spectrum you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson ('We talkin bout practice'), etc., who are some of the most gifted bball players ever, but are relatively lazy.  On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy and DeWil, who are very hard working, but not very good (relatively speaking, of course).

A coach may never want to simply give minutes to the lazy talented guys.  Why not?  Because other players may view it as unfair.  It sets the precedent that working hard is not necessary to get minutes.  If the naturally-talented guys are going to get all the minutes, why put in any effort?

However, the flip side is that you may have a player who may not try as hard in practice.  Maybe he does his suicides half-ass or whatever, but he is extremely talented.  If he sees that someone who is an inferior player getting minutes over him, he may think that this is unfair, as his talent is not being rewarded.  The coach may not want to give all the minutes to the hard-working guys because then the talented lazy guys feel resentment and then completely stop putting in effort altogether.

This trade-off could be manifesting itself at MU this season (and perhaps last season, too) as well as on this on this board.  We have Ners who is saying that Wojo needs to let the talented guys run more.  If a walk-on runs really good suicides, but can't hit a free throw/three pointer, the suicides don't matter.  On the other side, we have the DeWil camp saying that Burton's lack of playing time must be evidence that he is not practicing as hard as the others and thus he doesn't deserve more minutes.

A good question would be: Should effort be evaluated at some absolute threshold level (i.e., meet some minimum and get a certain level of minutes), or should it be evaluated at a relative level (i.e., the guy who practices harder at his position will get more minutes).

tl;dr:  Ners and company say delegate minutes with a focus on talent, while others and company say delegate minutes with a focus on effort

Unfortunately this back-and-forth is likely also being clouded and muddled by the human tendency to engage in tribalism.

Just some of my random thoughts reading through all of this

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 07:12:48 PM
Well played

LOL

Yes--well played "one was a joke", and that would be Sultan. a "joke".

Quote from: Eldon on December 11, 2014, 08:01:59 AM
After reading this post along with some of MattyV's comments, this entire debate could simply come down to this trade-off.  There is not some inherent trade-off between talent and effort, but sometimes there is.

On one end of the spectrum you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson ('We talkin bout practice'), etc., who are some of the most gifted bball players ever, but are relatively lazy.  On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy and DeWil, who are very hard working, but not very good (relatively speaking, of course).

A coach may never want to simply give minutes to the lazy talented guys.  Why not?  Because other players may view it as unfair.  It sets the precedent that working hard is not necessary to get minutes.  If the naturally-talented guys are going to get all the minutes, why put in any effort?

However, the flip side is that you may have a player who may not try as hard in practice.  Maybe he does his suicides half-ass or whatever, but he is extremely talented.  If he sees that someone who is an inferior player getting minutes over him, he may think that this is unfair, as his talent is not being rewarded.  The coach may not want to give all the minutes to the hard-working guys because then the talented lazy guys feel resentment and then completely stop putting in effort altogether.

This trade-off could be manifesting itself at MU this season (and perhaps last season, too) as well as on this on this board.  We have Ners who is saying that Wojo needs to let the talented guys run more.  If a walk-on runs really good suicides, but can't hit a free throw/three pointer, the suicides don't matter.  On the other side, we have the DeWil camp saying that Burton's lack of playing time must be evidence that he is not practicing as hard as the others and thus he doesn't deserve more minutes.

A good question would be: Should effort be evaluated at some absolute threshold level (i.e., meet some minimum and get a certain level of minutes), or should it be evaluated at a relative level (i.e., the guy who practices harder at his position will get more minutes).

tl;dr:  Ners and company say delegate minutes with a focus on talent, while others and company say delegate minutes with a focus on effort

Unfortunately this back-and-forth is likely also being clouded and muddled by the human tendency to engage in tribalism.

Just some of my random thoughts reading through all of this

In an ideal world, your best players are your hardest workers. Jordan, Peyton Manning, LeBron, Kobe, Tom Brady, etc. Those guys have tremendous talent and they don't waste a drop of it. When you're a no-name, end-of-the-bench guy and you see the All-American pushing himself in practice, being the first in the gym and the last to leave, it makes an impression. When the best players coast in practice and only show up for games, the team's ceiling is much lower.

In addition, when the best players coast in practice, coaches get on their case relentlessly because they understand that those are the guys who are going to elevate the team's play. If a benchwarmer coasts in practice, the coach may simply get rid of him. Even Coach Bobby Finstock knew that.

As a general aside, I have not personally said that Deonte didn't work hard in practice and don't mean to give off that impression. I don't know if he's a hard-worker or a coaster. I just think that he looked lost on the court and was unwilling/unable to contribute in other facets of the game besides scoring.

While I haven't been to or seen any tape of practices, I think it's at least a fair guess that Deonte is outworked in practice by Juan, JjJ, Derrick, Du, Carlino, Teve, Chief, Wally and Luke.  But at times, he shows unbelievable potential.  I say this based on the playing time Deonte gets in a game and by watching him in games.  He obviously has a very high ceiling and does some spectacular things on the court but then looks lost and doesn't go ball out on the court.  So it makes me think that his attitude is much like a lot of kids these days, not just with basketball, but with life.  Based on his talent alone, he feels he deserves more.  Sure, others are working harder, but he's better so he should play!  It's pure laziness coupled with an entitlement attitude.  Far too many kids have that attitude and that's what I see with Deonte.

Obviously, my analysis may be off base but it's based on the eye test.  And we all know from Ners that the eye test is what matters.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2014, 07:42:22 AM
I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

I think he was the only guy on the team that has dunked so far this year.

The hard working Tom Brady was held down by Lloyd Carr who preferred the on-the-surface more talented Drew Henson.   Guess Lloyd should have gone with the gamer.     But this goes to the heart of Eldon's argument.   There is always a tension between the less talented but hardworking team guy and the more talented, less hardworking guy.      In the end, it boils down to the fact that two players the former coach recruited didn't mesh with the new coach and are now looking for opportunities elsewhere.  

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 11, 2014, 08:19:38 AM
I think he was the only guy on the team that has dunked so far this year.

And didn't he have a colossal fail on a dunk attempt during the first game?  Where the ball sailed almost to the scoreboard?

Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on December 11, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
And we all know from Ners that the eye test is what matters.

Had to chuckle at this.  Ners has cited Derrick's shooting stats more often than Sinatra has sung New York New York.  Hard to believe he has time to actually watch a game.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 10, 2014, 05:54:44 PM

Maybe Deonte is LOST period with what is still a very recent and personal loss.  At that point it's critical of both the coaching staff and player to communicate effectively in all aspects not just basketball.  It's a delicate situation that I think 2-3 years of head coaching experience probably yields a different result for Wojo and Deonte.

I'm sorry too and thanks for deescalating a misunderstanding.

It's a very delicate situation.

As I posted earlier, I would be in favor of Deonte taking this semester off and then coming back to MU in the summer/fall, but I don't think that is going to happen.

Bottom line for me (and then I'll shut up):

I don't blame Deonte 1 bit for being unfocused right now.
BUT
I also don't blame the coach for not playing him meaningful minutes when he is lost on the court. 

I have a hard time blaming this transfer on Wojo's rotation. 

If Deonte and his family think a fresh start is best, then I wish him luck. He seems like a great kid.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2014, 08:40:00 AM
Had to chuckle at this.  Ners has cited Derrick's shooting stats more often than Sinatra has sung New York New York.  Hard to believe he has time to actually watch a game.

He only watches half the court, so that frees up some time.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 11, 2014, 07:42:22 AM
I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

Has Deonte struggled this year?  Yes.  Have we seen in recent history MU players struggle and not do ANYTHING in games (in 35+ minutes of playing time) and continue to get minutes (because they apparently are practicing well?)

Deonte was considered to be a breakout player this season.  Coming off All Big East Freshman selection in just 12 minutes of play.  Kevin O'Neill raved about him - as did just about every other color commentator last year.  

Deonte had a history of production as a freshman, and that alone should have earned him more time.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2014, 07:53:07 AM
C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

Sure, he has experience working with them - in an ASSISTANT COACH role.  He didn't control/dictate any of those guys playing time.  EVER.  And I guarantee you if Wojo were controlling their playing time, and played some scrubs in front to those naturally gifted guys - they would have bolted too..

Wojo just relegated our most talented offensive player to the bench for 24 minutes per game.  And the reason some here give is because Deonte "doesn't have his hands up on D/is lost on D."  I swear, some of you guys are looking for spastic effort on defense - when you don't have to play as a complete spaz to be an effective defender.

Help me understand those of you who are so down on Deonte's D - How does a guy with such terrible D-skills, who is so lost on D have the 5th highest steal percentage out of all college basketball players last year?  This season Deonte ranks 41st in the country.  Meanwhile, Derrick Wilson, your all world defender steals the ball at a 1/3rd of the rate Burton does this season and is not ranked in the Top 500 college players with regard to steal percentage.

I know...I know...I'll get the same old tired arguments of he plays good position defense.  Just like the same old tired arguments about him "getting us into our offense."  When in reality - the production is almost NEVER there.  You get an outlier of a game about 1 every 8 games.  The other 7 are just abysmal.

PRODUCTION ON THE COURT UNDER THE LIGHTS MATTERS.  Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

So, a coach should base his opinion and playing time allocation of a player he did not recruit, on stats and minutes played in games he's seen only on film, for a different coach, in a different system and style, instead of what he actually experiences on his own in workouts, practices, and games?  Good plan.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 11, 2014, 09:47:24 AM
So, a coach should base his opinion and playing time allocation of a player he did not recruit, on stats and minutes played in games he's seen only on film, for a different coach, in a different system and style, instead of what he actually experiences on his own in workouts, practices, and games?  Good plan.

Agree.  Now you understand the argument and why it is futile to respond to the dude.

In the real world

2 employees

1 with infinite talent
1 with not so much, but works harder

The employee with not so much will outperform the more talented every time.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 09:41:38 AM

Has Deonte struggled this year?  Yes.  

PRODUCTION ON THE COURT UNDER THE LIGHTS MATTERS.  

Exactly. That's why his minutes have been limited.

If Deonte started lighting it up in the second half of the year, then his minutes would have increased.

Quote from: 79Warrior on December 11, 2014, 09:59:38 AM
Agree.  Now you understand the argument and why it is futile to respond to the dude.

I know, and I've avoided it for months, but some comments are so stupid, I allowed myself to get sucked back in. I will fix that immediately.

Quote from: Ellenson for an mu-rara on December 11, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
In the real world

2 employees

1 with infinite talent
1 with not so much, but works harder

The employee with not so much will outperform the more talented every time.

In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 11, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
I know, and I've avoided it for months, but some comments are so stupid, I allowed myself to get sucked back in. I will fix that immediately.

Trust me.  I know the feeling.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:19:36 AM
The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

That is absolutely not true.  Otherwise players like Eddie Curry would be in the Hall of Fame.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:19:36 AM
In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

This clearly explains why Jimmy Butler (#30 pick of 2011 NBA Draft)  is on the verge of an all-star season while a naturally talented guy like Derrick Williams (#2 pick of the 2011 NBA Draft) is playing less than 12 minutes per game for a middling team.
EVERY TIME!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
Deonte had a history of production as a freshman, and that alone should have earned him more time.

Sure, he has experience working with them - in an ASSISTANT COACH role.  He didn't control/dictate any of those guys playing time.  EVER.  And I guarantee you if Wojo were controlling their playing time, and played some scrubs in front to those naturally gifted guys - they would have bolted too..

Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

Goodbye Ners. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for some time, but you literally have no idea what you are talking about. Pretty much, EVER. You know nothing about earning playing time on this team or the criterion it should be/is judged by. Additionally, you also have no idea how Wojo influenced playing time as an assistant coach. You have turned into white noise because of brain-dead "analysis" like this. I have to hit eject and escape from the Ners Vortex. My first ignore/hide.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
Wojo just relegated our most talented offensive player to the bench for 24 minutes per game.

No, Duane Wilson has been getting plenty of playing time.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2014, 10:25:52 AM
This clearly explains why Jimmy Butler (#30 pick of 2011 NBA Draft)  is on the verge of an all-star season while a naturally talented guy like Derrick Williams (#2 pick of the 2011 NBA Draft) is playing less than 12 minutes per game for a middling team.
EVERY TIME!

Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:32:40 AM
Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Your view on Deonte's playing time make your 2014 Dawson argument seem logical.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:32:40 AM
What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Yep, and two consecutive head coached who have been directly involved in basketball their entire lives, obviously don't posses the acumen as a keyboard coach such as yourself.

(http://i.imgur.com/5ktgryb.jpg)

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 11, 2014, 10:38:29 AM
Yep, and two consecutive head coached who have been directly involved in basketball their entire lives, obviously don't posses the acumen you do.

Are you aware the coaches frequently try to use motivational tactics to elicit a response they want to see?  The bench is known is the biggest motivator.

Sometimes the tactic fails. Sometimes what the coach wants to extract - isn't there in the player.  Coaches tend to hold a player they view as extremely talented to a higher standard than a clearly less talented player.

Not all kids respond well to benching - particularly when you are sitting behind a clearly less talented and unproductive player.

Methinks the entire argument is wrong. Maybe it's not either that Deonte is supremely talented and should play OR that he doesn't work hard enough and shouldn't play more.

Maybe he is very talented AND he worked hard at practice. Maybe it is that he just doesn't have an aptitude for basketball - a high basketball IQ, as it were. Maybe that is why he looked so lost at times, why he would just drive down the lane like a bull in a china shop despite a couple defenders being there, why he was so often out of position on defense. Maybe, despite his obvious talents, he just didn't get it.

Maybe we're all too busy trying to argue with those incredibly stupid comments that Ners has about the subject that we are distracted from the real problem.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:32:40 AM
Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Ah, I must have misunderstood that when your wrote "the basketball world" you were excluding the NBA. Because no one would ever think that the NBA was part of "the basketball world."

So, let's stick to college.
Frank Kaminsky, a three-star recruit who chose UW over powerhouses like Bradley, Northern Illinois and Northwestern, is a likely first-term All American and first-round NBA pick.

RSCI top 20 players in that same recruiting class included:
James McAdoo (now in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Adonis Thomas (also in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Khem Birch (same)
Myck Kabongo (same)
Josiah Turner (same)
Jabari Brown (same)

Natural talent wins EVERY TIME!

Quote from: Eldon on December 11, 2014, 08:01:59 AM
On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy

I thought Rudy was a product of his own feracious imagination and the Disney hype machine

Quote from: tower912 on December 11, 2014, 08:22:30 AM
The hard working Tom Brady was held down by Lloyd Carr who preferred the on-the-surface more talented Drew Henson.   Guess Lloyd should have gone with the gamer.  

Yea, but Steinbrenner made Henson a multi-millionaire at 19 so he's got that on Brady...

Quote from: Pakuni on December 11, 2014, 10:54:38 AM
Ah, I must have misunderstood that when your wrote "the basketball world" you were excluding the NBA. Because no one would ever think that the NBA was part of "the basketball world."

So, let's stick to college.
Frank Kaminsky, a three-star recruit who chose UW over powerhouses like Bradley, Northern Illinois and Northwestern, is a likely first-term All American and first-round NBA pick.

RSCI top 20 players in that same recruiting class included:
James McAdoo (now in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Adonis Thomas (also in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Khem Birch (same)
Myck Kabongo (same)
Josiah Turner (same)
Jabari Brown (same)

Natural talent wins EVERY TIME!

That's a fine example.  

Kaminsky is producing...he absolutely deserves all the time he gets on the floor.  Because the in-game results are there.  We have been debating the merits of Deonte getting playing time versus others.

How many more games of horsecrap production from Derrick is it going to take for you and the others to say:  He may work hard in practice, be a great guy, great teammate - but his production just doesn't warrant all the time on the court he's "earned?"

Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on December 11, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
my analysis may be off base but it's based on the eye test.  

Frankly, the "smell" test is the far better gauge...one whiff usually gets right to the heart of things...

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 11:01:48 AM
That's a fine example.  

Kaminsky is producing...he absolutely deserves all the time he gets on the floor.  Because the in-game results are there.  We have been debating the merits of Deonte getting playing time versus others.

How many more games of horsecrap production from Derrick is it going to take for you and the others to say:  He may work hard in practice, be a great guy, great teammate - but his production just doesn't warrant all the time on the court he's "earned?"

I really think this whole thing has more to do with Derrick than Deonte (for you anyways).

Can we all agree to knock this off? We've covered this before.

NM

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 11, 2014, 11:06:04 AM
I really think this whole thing has more to do with Derrick than Deonte (for you anyways).

Can we all agree to knock this off? We've covered this before.

He agreed to 48 hours ago.  What makes you think that even if he says he'll stop, that he won't start it right back up again?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 11, 2014, 11:18:16 AM
NM

Exactly.  It is so great to type out a response to something the poster who shall not be named writes...I just then delete it, and hit the back button, and go about my day.  

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  ;)

Points 3,4 and 5 are why I started this thread, and are more eloquently written.  

Perfect example: Vander Blue

He was a highly-touted HS prospect who many believed was going to be a star from day 1. He wasn't. He struggled to put the ball in the basket, he forced the action, he turned the ball over...and he still saw minutes.

Why?

Because he contributed in other areas. He was a very good defender. He rebounded. He played within the offense. However, as the season went on, his minutes decreased.

Why?

Because, despite his contributions, Juco no-name* Dwight Buycks was outperforming him. That doesn't mean Blue wasn't working hard or that Buycks was more talented. It was the case of a more naturally-gifted athlete not producing as much as a less naturally-gifted player. Should Buzz have planted Buycks on the bench and played Blue 25 min/game simply because he had a higher ceiling but less production?


* - no disrespect intended to Dwight

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
Deonte was considered to be a breakout player this season.  Coming off All Big East Freshman selection in just 12 minutes of play.  Kevin O'Neill raved about him - as did just about every other color commentator last year.  

So he should play because a bunch of media people wrote filler articles about him in the preseason? That's about as smart as playing guys because people on message boards say so.

At some point it has to come down to actual production, and Deonte wasn't producing. Not to the level of our expectations, not to the level of media expectations, and not to the level of the less talented guys that you feel should be behind him.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 11, 2014, 11:31:32 AM
Perfect example: Vander Blue

He was a highly-touted HS prospect who many believed was going to be a star from day 1. He wasn't. He struggled to put the ball in the basket, he forced the action, he turned the ball over...and he still saw minutes.

Why?

Because he contributed in other areas. He was a very good defender. He rebounded. He played within the offense. However, as the season went on, his minutes decreased.

Why?

Because, despite his contributions, Juco no-name* Dwight Buycks was outperforming him. That doesn't mean Blue wasn't working hard or that Buycks was more talented. It was the case of a more naturally-gifted athlete not producing as much as a less naturally-gifted player. Should Buzz have planted Buycks on the bench and played Blue 25 min/game simply because he had a higher ceiling but less production?


* - no disrespect intended to Dwight

Well given Vander had a pretty significant fall off as a senior at Madison Memorial, I certainly didn't think he'd come in and be a star.

And Buycks was hardly a JUCO No Name - He was 1st Team All-American, and was a high major recruit coming out of HS but didn't have credentials to go D-1.  Buycks had plenty of talent.  And of course he's proven to be more NBA worthy than Vander at this point.

I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 11:37:24 AM
So he should play because a bunch of media people wrote filler articles about him in the preseason? That's about as smart as playing guys because people on message boards say so.

At some point it has to come down to actual production, and Deonte wasn't producing. Not to the level of our expectations, not to the level of media expectations, and not to the level of the less talented guys that you feel should be behind him.

For the love of God Brew - how can you tout a players production, or lack thereof and champion Derrick for minutes??  Again, play Derrick 16 minutes a game, in 3 different stints of 5 minutes of action - what kind of production do you think we'd be getting?  Hell when he plays 35+ minutes we typically get about 4 points and 2 assists.  Somehow, I imagine if Burton got 35 plus he'd achieve a good deal more than that, as well as triple Derrick's steals/block totals.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 11:40:38 AM
I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

A bit revisionist.  There were loads of posters who absolutely hated Buycks on this board and were literally wishing him injury and thought he shouldn't get 2 minutes of playing time.

There was a poster named "NoMoreBuycks".

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:19:36 AM
In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

And this is why you are not a D1 basketball coach.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 11, 2014, 11:43:34 AM


There was a poster named "NoMoreBuycks".

Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh
Ho Chi Minh is gonna win!

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 11:42:20 AM
For the love of God Brew - how can you tout a players production, or lack thereof and champion Derrick for minutes??  Again, play Derrick 16 minutes a game, in 3 different stints of 5 minutes of action - what kind of production do you think we'd be getting?  Hell when he plays 35+ minutes we typically get about 4 points and 2 assists.  Somehow, I imagine if Burton got 35 plus he'd achieve a good deal more than that, as well as triple Derrick's steals/block totals.

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody fear boner for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

FIFY

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Not sure I totally agree with this.  That's basically saying we're committed to running with a three guard lineup where Carlino Duane and Derrick each get 25-35 any give night?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Derrick has been playing as a forward on the defensive end.  Burton is a hell of a lot more a 3, than a 1 or 2, to be competing with Duane/Sandy/JJJ.  And Derrick, while, I'm not sure if he's even a 1 or 2, but he's a lot more that, than a 3.

A 2 guard lineup, with a guy like Burton at the 3 is very traditional and not at all abnormal.  You play Carlino, Duane, Burton with Steve and Juan.  If foul trouble becomes an issue - than sub Derrick in for Deonte/Steve/Juan - whichever one is in foul trouble.  Dawson could have backed up Carlino and Duane.  

Ners' idea that Deonte should have been given minutes to keep him around is absurd.  On game day, Wojo's job is to play the most effective combination of players...and he has done that.  He has put together a team that has four losses...the same number of losses that MU had last year.  

The differences between this year and last: this year's losses include 11-point losses (no blow-outs) to the three highest-ranked teams in the top conference(all top 20 at the time)...and one bad loss. Last year's team had already been blown out by 17 points at home, and it wasn't even that close.  Last year's team had Otule, Jamil Wilson, Gardner, Mayo and Jake Thomas.  This year's team added Carlino and Cohen.  Both are playing well, but not to the extent that it offsets the loss of three big men and our clutch player from last year. Finally, this year's team is showing improvement, something that seemed to lack last year.  

My point: Given the players on the roster, Wojo's performance has been an improvement over last year's start.  Wojo has been using the combination that gives us the best chance to win.  As fans, we can look past this year and say we should keep guys happy for the coming years.  As a coach, Wojo's job is to win.  For the seniors (including a kid Wojo convinced to come to MU for his last year of eligibility), next year doesn't matter.  These guys want to win now.  

Last year's version of Deonte was able to help us win now.  For whatever reason (tragedy in his life, lack of big men, new offense, etc.), Deonte was not able to help the team win on game day, at least not more than the seven guys ahead of him.  His assist to turnover rate was 0.18x.  He was averaging 1.4 rebounds per game.  Even if you double his minutes to starter's minutes, 2.8 rebounds per game doesn't cut it for a power forward.  Our embattled point guard is averaging a comparable 2.0 rebounds per game.  We all know about his defensive struggles.  Given this production this year, it's just hard to justify additional minutes.  

Burton seems like a great kid who will flourish in the right system.  I will cheer for him, even if he follows his old coach (though I won't cheer for his team in that case), which may be a better fit given his production last year.  But we shouldn't fault Wojo for giving playing time to the kids who give Marquette the best chance to win.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 12:14:20 PM
Derrick has been playing as a forward on the defensive end.  Burton is a hell of a lot more a 3, than a 1 or 2, to be competing with Duane/Sandy/JJJ.  And Derrick, while, I'm not sure if he's even a 1 or 2, but he's a lot more that, than a 3.

A 2 guard lineup, with a guy like Burton at the 3 is very traditional and not at all abnormal.  You play Carlino, Duane, Burton with Steve and Juan.  If foul trouble becomes an issue - than sub Derrick in for Deonte/Steve/Juan - whichever one is in foul trouble.  Dawson could have backed up Carlino and Duane.  

How many minutes can you play that line-up?

Let's take a different tack.  You've acknowledged that Burton hasn't performed this season.  He could be distracted due to his circumstances or maybe he's pressing and all up in his head instead of just reacting.  Let's assume he's pressing, as a former player you should know sometimes what that player needs is time off or limited exposure to work things out.  Perhaps Wojo was limiting Burton's minutes for this reason.

This is just as likely as your Wojo sees himself in Derrick so he plays a worse player theory.  Unless you talk to Wojo there is no way to know.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 11:40:38 AM
Well given Vander had a pretty significant fall off as a senior at Madison Memorial, I certainly didn't think he'd come in and be a star.

And Buycks was hardly a JUCO No Name - He was 1st Team All-American, and was a high major recruit coming out of HS but didn't have credentials to go D-1.  Buycks had plenty of talent.  And of course he's proven to be more NBA worthy than Vander at this point.

I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

Buycks was a 2-star recruit heading to Bradley out of HS. That's not high-major.

99.9% of Jucos are no-names. Off the top of your head, name one Juco All-American from 2013-14.

Blue averaged 26.6 min/game before conference play began and 14.9 min/game after. Is that "pretty good playing time" in your book? Burton is getting more than that this year (16.1) so, by your definition, he was also getting pretty good PT.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:02:17 PM
Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 11, 2014, 01:05:55 PM

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

Because TALENT WINS OUT!

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 11, 2014, 01:05:55 PM

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

I didn't say Juan, I said JJJ.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:02:17 PM
Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

This thread is just completely hopeless

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:02:17 PM
Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

If the argument is you take JjJ's minutes and give them to Burton, it has a lot of merit.  That's not the argument being made for 14 pages of thread

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2014, 01:08:14 PM
If the argument is you take JjJ's minutes and give them to Burton, it has a lot of merit.  That's not the argument being made for 14 pages of thread

I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

You are preaching to the converted on JjJ, I don't think anyone would argue with you on that.

I do think Steve and Juan are a different story, they've "looked" better this year and especially Juan has been statistically measurable as better than Burton as Sultan indicated.  Steve has something Burton doesn't, height.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 11, 2014, 11:26:05 AM

He agreed to 48 hours ago.  What makes you think that even if he says he'll stop, that he won't start it right back up again?

Ners at 10:53 a.m.: "OK, Derrick Moratorium officially in place."

Ners at 10:54 a.m.: "We'd be well on our way to a second straight national title if Derrick had never been born!"

Quote from: MU82 on December 11, 2014, 01:18:21 PM
Ners at 10:53 a.m.: "OK, Derrick Moratorium officially in place."

Ners at 10:54 a.m.: "We'd be well on our way to a second straight national title if Derrick had never been born!"

I hope the guy never tries cocaine.  He'd be dead in a week with that willpower.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 11, 2014, 01:16:48 PM
You are preaching to the converted on JjJ, I don't think anyone would argue with you on that.

I do think Steve and Juan are a different story, they've "looked" better this year and especially Juan has been statistically measurable as better than Burton as Sultan indicated.  Steve has something Burton doesn't, height.

Really?

I've read post after post with regards to Burton not 'earning' more minutes either in practice or in games.  How he's not a Wojo type player.  How he looks lost on the court.  How playing guys simply because they have potential ruins a team.

Yes I've lumped Juan and Steve in with JJJ because if they're not losing the ball off their feet their missing a lay up but with their size they need to be playing.

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

Even Ners would have made progress on this board had he lobbied Dawson be playing over JJJ.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

The numbers for Deonte and JJJ are very similar and JJJ's minutes have decreased in each of the last 3 games. In fact, since the Ohio State game, Deonte has played 4 more total minutes than JJJ. It was trending in the direction of Burton getting some of JJJ's minutes.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:23:55 PM

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

How could you look at either one of them and honestly think he deserves more playing time than the other? The one aspect that gave JJJ a slight edge early on is that he has a better ability to guard on the perimeter.

They're getting the same amount of PT and both struggled. The opportunity was there, yet neither took advantage of it.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 11, 2014, 01:07:53 PM
This thread is just completely hopeless

We need to petition the moderator to set up a site for Ners like he did for politics. Then he can just argue with himself and we can have our board back.

I thought nothing could be worse than Chico's carpet-bombing threads with his posts to prove his intellectual superiority, but Ners may even be worse.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:23:55 PM

Yes I've lumped Juan and Steve in with JJJ because if they're not losing the ball off their feet their missing a lay up but with their size they need to be playing.

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

I agree - Juan and Steve needed to be in for their height, so the comparison is irrelevant.

As to JJJ, Wojo could use either/or, and it'd be hard to notice the difference in overall production.  In fact, I think he was going back and forth between the two, probably trying to figure out who could help the team most over the course of the season.  The usage seems to bear this out, as they have received comparable minutes this season -- far less than the five starters, but more than John and Sandy.  My guess is that Wojo has given slightly more minutes to JJJ than Deonte with the hope that he'd be an outside threat who could help us overcome our size deficiency.  In any event, they were both given a chance to show that they deserved to get the "sixth man" minutes.  So how do you fault Wojo for taking two highly talented, highly athletic, but currently underachieving kids, and giving them both a chance to prove he's the guy?

Edit:  In addition to Wojo giving them both a run, the trend has actually been moving more in Deonte's direction of late.  In the first four games, JJJ got way more minutes (99 to 65), while in the last four, the balance has shifted slightly in Deonte's favor (64 to 63).  Could it be that Wojo was starting to see more overall value in Deonte than JJJ...but Deonte didn't stick around long enough to see how it worked out?

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 12:02:04 AM
Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.

I can tell you that any coach worth his salt would hit you over the head for this strategy. You only have four players who can play the post? You start two, only play two at a time, then if the game calls for it in the second half (and you aren't in foul trouble), you can start playing three of them at the same.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 12:02:04 AM
And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

Then either Deonte doesn't understand how a depth chart works, or Wojo did a poor job explaining to him why he wasn't being played at the three.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:23:55 PM
Really?

I've read post after post with regards to Burton not 'earning' more minutes either in practice or in games.  How he's not a Wojo type player.  How he looks lost on the court.  How playing guys simply because they have potential ruins a team.

Are any of them relative to JjJ??  Not a single post I've seen has said JjJ should play more than Burton.  Find it if I'm wrong

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

I'm not talking about getting kids into the NBA. I'm talking about coaching a college basketball team. Of course talent gets you into the NBA but hard work is what makes you a better player and a better team. Players don't develop if they don't listen to their coaches. And if they aren't listening to their coaches, then they shouldn't play.

As much as I hate Cal, he's actually one of the best at getting talented players to work hard, develop, and...god forbid...even sit on the bench when they are not playing up to his standards.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

I will agree that a more experienced coach probably could have handled this better. More experienced coaches are better at having tough conversations and navigating whatever outside factors are affecting their players' lives. Agree with this 100%. What I disagree with is the implication some people have made that Wojo should have given Deonte more minutes in order to placate them. I don't know of a single high major coach who would do that. If a player says "play me more or I'm transferring" you try to convince him that the minutes are there for him to earn. You tell him that as he improves in practice and as a player he will get more time. In this specific situation, you tell him that with Luke coming in, he will be able to play him at the three more, potentially opening up more minutes. But if that isn't enough, then you let the kid transfer.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:13 AM
6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

He deserves whatever minutes he earns. Talent earns you a certain amount of playing time. But hard work and doing what is asked of you earns the rest. And no Wojo shouldn't be fired for limiting the minutes of a player who isn't doing what is asked of him in practice. I think anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand how coaching works.

I have no idea what Deonte was doing in practice. What I do know is that he was the backup power forward playing behind Juan. On the court, Juan was outperforming Deonte by leaps and bounds. I think Deonte was closer to getting too much playing time than he was to getting too little playing time. Hell, I even think Sandy has played better this season and he has been getting less minutes than him. It's a shame Deonte didn't get to play his natural position at the three, I think it would have helped things click.

Lastly, the more and more I hear about this, the less and less I think it has to do with playing time.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:02:17 PM
Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

This would have a lot more merit if you argued that Burton looked better than any of those three guys, but he hasn't. Juan has looked better than Burton in nearly every aspect of the game except the free throw line.

Steve, JJJ, and Burton have all struggled. So what is the answer? To play Burton because he might transfer? I think the real problem is that the people who seem to want Burton to get more minutes are ignoring the simple and blatant fact that he has been bad on offense this year. He has been less efficient, less aggressive, less likely to get offensive rebounds, less likely to create chances for his teammates, and more likely to turn the ball over.

I love Burton's potential, but he has been bad. I love Burton as a kid, think he is a fantastic representative of Marquette, but on the court, he has been bad. And not just on defense. I have a complete inability of understanding why we would take minutes from Steve and Jajuan to give them to someone who really hasn't been any more effective than either of those guys. I wanted this kid to be fantastic, I expected him to be a leader, a scorer, and to grow into an all-conference and possibly an All-American player. But he hasn't been any of that. And giving more minutes to him when he is already struggling to produce in the minutes he is getting isn't likely to fix that.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 10:19:36 AM
In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

Every time? No. Some of the time? Yes. Most of the time? Maybe.

But this is the wrong argument. It stops short.

2 players

Player A: 1 with huge talent, but coasts on his talent
Player B: 1 with less talent, but works his ass off

Coach plays Player A over Player B
Result: Player A does well, but never gets better because he is coasting on talent. Player B gets frustrated that Player A slacks off but still gets minutes and quits himself because what's the point? If Player B is really hard working, maybe he keeps working until he surpasses player A.

Coach plays Player B over Player A
Result: Player B does ok and slowly gets better the more time he gets. Player A gets frustrated because he is more talented than Player B. Player A realizes he has to work as hard as Player B if he wants playing time. Player A works harder, becomes a better player and quickly surpasses Player B. Player B doesn't get frustrated because he sees Player A working as hard as he is. Of course, if Player A is especially lazy or entitled, he may rage quit.

If a talented player is not naturally motivated, sometimes the only way to get them to develop is to sit them in favor of the players who are working harder. If you don't hold lazy players accountable than it ruins team chemistry, trust, and player development. This is coaching 101.

All this being said, I don't think this is what happened in our specific case. Juan was the only person in front of Burton for minutes and I think even Burton would admit that Juan has played better than he has this season.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 11, 2014, 11:29:48 AM
Points 3,4 and 5 are why I started this thread, and are more eloquently written.  

I'm curious TW, what did Wojo not do that you think he should have done. I don't have details but I imagine that Wojo tried just about everything he could to keep Burton in the fold and help him in this difficult time in his life.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

Couple of things:

#1 Due to limited options at #4 &5, I don't think Wojo wanted to slide Burton into the 3 spot (yet).

#2 JJJ avg 20mpg, and Deonte avg. 16mpg. If it was reversed, do we think that would have kept Burton at MU? How many minutes per game would have kept Deonte?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 02:02:58 PM


I love Burton's potential, but he has been bad. I love Burton as a kid, think he is a fantastic representative of Marquette, but on the court, he has been bad. And not just on defense. I have a complete inability of understanding why we would take minutes from Steve and Jajuan to give them to someone who really hasn't been any more effective than either of those guys. I wanted this kid to be fantastic, I expected him to be a leader, a scorer, and to grow into an all-conference and possibly an All-American player. But he hasn't been any of that. And giving more minutes to him when he is already struggling to produce in the minutes he is getting isn't likely to fix that.

If this side by side comparison makes Deonte look bad, what say you with regard to Derrick?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=2-deonte-burton

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

I think Juan has done just about everything better than Burton this season. Better rebounder, much better defender (top 100 in the country by according to Bama's stats), slightly better shooter, and much better distributor.

Steve has struggled but he is tall. Playing him is a necessary evil. And one thing that both Steve and Juan have done very well is defending without fouling. Critical when you have so few post players and impressive when they are this undersized.

JjJ, Burton has been comparable to. I would argue that Burton has been better than JjJ. My issue is that JjJ is a guard and on this team we needed Burton almost exclusively as a forward. You can't play 3/4 of your post players at the same time, especially with how foul prone Deonte is. Late in the game if you aren't in foul trouble, sure, take JjJ's minutes, but not in the first 30 minutes.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2014, 01:38:56 PM
I can tell you that any coach worth his salt would hit you over the head for this strategy. You only have four players who can play the post? You start two, only play two at a time, then if the game calls for it in the second half (and you aren't in foul trouble), you can start playing three of them at the same.

Look, you don't go into a game and say - Gee, what if we get in foul trouble.  You play your best players at their respective positions and let the game dictate to you what substitutions need to be made.

Deonte is a FAR better option at the 3, than Derrick.  Period.  End of story.  Just as are Carlino and Duane at the 1 and 2.

Juan gets in trouble playing alongside Steve and Deonte?  Bring Derrick in to fill his slot in the zone.  Steve gets in trouble - slide Juan to the center position, bring in Derrick to fill Juan's slot.  Dawson could also have given time at that forward position in the zone.

The fact some of you are trying to argue that Derrick deserves/deserved more playing time at that forward position than Deonte is, without a doubt, the absolute dumbest thing I've ever read here.  And there have been some really dumb things written when it comes to the topic of Derrick and all of the ridiculous rationalizations people have tried to make to support him getting 30+ minutes with abysmal production.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
I think Juan has done just about everything better than Burton this season. Better rebounder, much better defender (top 100 in the country by according to Bama's stats), slightly better shooter, and much better distributor.

Steve has struggled but he is tall. Playing him is a necessary evil. And one thing that both Steve and Juan have done very well is defending without fouling. Critical when you have so few post players and impressive when they are this undersized.

JjJ, Burton has been comparable to. I would argue that Burton has been better than JjJ. My issue is that JjJ is a guard and on this team we needed Burton almost exclusively as a forward. You can't play 3/4 of your post players at the same time, especially with how foul prone Deonte is. Late in the game if you aren't in foul trouble, sure, take JjJ's minutes, but not in the first 30 minutes.

TAMU

We haven't been playing three forwards.  Prior to Fischer our team has consisted of only one post player (Steve) and a bunch of guards and wings.  I guess what I'm saying is EVERYBODY has played out of position to a certain extent.

We're essentially playing like Nova last year with four guards and a forward just without the good shooting, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim.

I have not read pages 9 through 16 but has anyone stopped to think that Burton is transferring because he might need a simple change of scenery for personal reasons?

Having lost a parent early in life, I can attest it isn't easy to be around all the places where memories were made. Perhaps he just wants to get out of Milwaukee, at least in part, so he isn't reminded of his loss every day.  Absent his loss, maybe he's able to fight through the issues about PT, the coaching change, etc... but add in the loss of his mom and it's just a little too much for the young man.  After all he is still a kid.

Jeez, a guy goes on vacation, comes back to find two players are leaving the team mid season, and the only thing this board can do is re-live the Derrick discussion (without emphasizing enough the fact that now both WOJO and the hillbilly savant have found him deserving of more playing time than the dearly departed, combined).  Sad to see both leave. Both seemed like quality kids, and I hope they fit in better somewhere else.  As for us, ...

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 02:32:17 PM
If this side by side comparison makes Deonte look bad, what say you with regard to Derrick?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=2-deonte-burton

I have no need to look at that because they are not competing for minutes. How many times do we have to go over this?

Okay...it's simple. We are basically playing the following positions:

PG1 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
PG2 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
WG1 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
WG2 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
Post (Taylor, Juan)

Deonte is competing for minutes with Duane and Carlino, maybe, but is not competing for minutes with Derrick. You've noted that Derrick has slid inside on defense, and while that is true, it is a combination of having only 2 perimeter positions and Derrick's physical strength making him the best suited of those players to go down low. Even still, whenever he is on the court he is the primary ball-handler, so he still is pretty much always in one of the PG spots, not a WG spot competing for minutes with Deonte.

Quote from: humanlung on December 11, 2014, 03:20:49 PM
I have not read pages 9 through 16 but has anyone stopped to think that Burton is transferring because he might need a simple change of scenery for personal reasons?

Having lost a parent early in life, I can attest it isn't easy to be around all the places where memories were made. Perhaps he just wants to get out of Milwaukee, at least in part, so he isn't reminded of his loss every day.  Absent his loss, maybe he's able to fight through the issues about PT, the coaching change, etc... but add in the loss of his mom and it's just a little too much for the young man.  After all he is still a kid.

Everybody but 1 person has stopped to consider that.

Quote from: connie on December 11, 2014, 03:29:05 PM
Jeez, a guy goes on vacation, comes back to find two players are leaving the team mid season, and the only thing this board can do is re-live the Derrick discussion (without emphasizing enough the fact that now both WOJO and the hillbilly savant have found him deserving of more playing time than the dearly departed, combined).  Sad to see both leave. Both seemed like quality kids, and I hope they fit in better somewhere else.  As for us, ...

The moral of the story is you should never go on vacation.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 11, 2014, 03:31:32 PM
I have no need to look at that because they are not competing for minutes. How many times do we have to go over this?

Okay...it's simple. We are basically playing the following positions:

PG1 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
PG2 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
WG1 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
WG2 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
Post (Taylor, Juan)

Deonte is competing for minutes with Duane and Carlino, maybe, but is not competing for minutes with Derrick. You've noted that Derrick has slid inside on defense, and while that is true, it is a combination of having only 2 perimeter positions and Derrick's physical strength making him the best suited of those players to go down low. Even still, whenever he is on the court he is the primary ball-handler, so he still is pretty much always in one of the PG spots, not a WG spot competing for minutes with Deonte.

I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable. 

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

Quote from: brandx on December 11, 2014, 01:33:41 PM
We need to petition the moderator to set up a site for Ners like he did for politics. Then he can just argue with himself and we can have our board back.

I thought nothing could be worse than Chico's carpet-bombing threads with his posts to prove his intellectual superiority, but Ners may even be worse.

The problem with entering that vortex is that you never are able to return.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:48:10 PM
I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable.  

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

As has been pointed out previously, two individuals making 2 million plus to coach Division I NCAA basketball at Marquette and VPI have found it best to put Derrick Wilson on the floor to give them the best chance to continue in their highly competitive positions.  Therefore, IMHO, it is perhaps you who may be exaggerating reasons for Derrick to sit.  Your high school basketball and yogurt experience aside, I'm going to stick with the opinions of the guys who do this sort of a thing for a living.  Derrick is no savior, he just happens to be one of the five best options this team has had over last season and this season.  Unless, both Buzz and now Wojo have - for apparently vastly differing reasons - decided to tank their team's season.  Personally, I don't believe that that is so.  While that might work in the yogurt biz, it just doesn't make any sense for anyone trying to hold onto jobs that extremely difficult to get and hold onto.  Just ask Ben Howland about getting and holding one of those jobs.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:48:10 PM
I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable. 

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

I'm pretty sure there is no Derrick fan club, there are simply those that acknowledge he is (for better or worse) one of the guys that gives us the best chance to win and those that ardently refuse to accept it. As two different coaches, both professionals making more money than likely any posters on this board, and their coaching staffs, have all determined the former to be the truth, and the people not accepting that have absolutely zero control over the decisions made by those paid professionals, I guess it's really not worth debating.

That said, I expect you to keep pissing and moaning about the same damn thing for the rest of the season, probably well into next season, and when anyone transfers from Marquette for the next decade, I expect you will try to pin it on the ghost of Derrick Wilson. What did he do, sleep with your wife?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 03:04:11 PM
TAMU

We haven't been playing three forwards.  Prior to Fischer our team has consisted of only one post player (Steve) and a bunch of guards and wings.  I guess what I'm saying is EVERYBODY has played out of position to a certain extent.

We're essentially playing like Nova last year with four guards and a forward just without the good shooting, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim.

I recognize that everyone is playing out of position. But you can't allow yourself to get into a situation where JjJ is playing the four. Wojo prevented that by playing Deonte, Sandy, Steve,and Juan exclusively at the 4/5 position.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2014, 04:31:21 PM
I recognize that everyone is playing out of position. But you can't allow yourself to get into a situation where JjJ is playing the four. Wojo prevented that by playing Deonte, Sandy, Steve,and Juan exclusively at the 4/5 position.

Give it up TAMU - Ners doesn't GET IT and never will.


I used to read the Scout board (free version, but never posted) and there is one poster there that does the same as Ners. Needless to say I haven't read that board in a long time.

Maybe we need a poll about ALL OF US leaving if Ners keeps posting about Derrick.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:01:21 PM
Deonte is a FAR better option at the 3, than Derrick.  Period.  End of story.  Just as are Carlino and Duane at the 1 and 2.
The fact some of you are trying to argue that Derrick deserves/deserved more playing time at that forward position than Deonte is, without a doubt, the absolute dumbest thing I've ever read here.  And there have been some really dumb things written when it comes to the topic of Derrick and all of the ridiculous rationalizations people have tried to make to support him getting 30+ minutes with abysmal production.

When did I say that Deonte wasn't a better option than Derrick at the three?

What I said was Deonte was played exclusively at the four because of his size. You have to protect your post. If you put Deonte, Juan, and Steve out there for long stretches at the same time, you run a huge risk of losing your posts to foul trouble and fatigue. Did you really want to see what would happen if we had to put JjJ in at the four? We were terrible enough at rebounding as it was.

Because of our team's makeup, a lot of people had to play out of position. It was a necessary evil. No one was more negatively impacted by that than Deonte. But there was nothing to be done. We needed Burton's size in the post.

I don't agree with Brew. I think Derrick was acting as three due to his placement in the defense. But if you recognize that Derrick was the three than you also have to recognize that Deonte was the four.

Any coach would have used the same strategy as Wojo, for the start of the game. Now once you get into the 2nd half, you don't have to worry as much about foul trouble (assuming you didn't foul too much in the 1st). Then you can afford to run with Deonte, Juan, and Steve out there. Which guess what? Wojo did! For about 9 minutes a game we saw Sandy or Deonte at the three. But always in the second half.

Derrick has nothing to do with Deonte's minutes or his transfer. But you are so drunk on haterade for Derrick that you must make EVERYTHING his fault.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:01:21 PM
Look, you don't go into a game and say - Gee, what if we get in foul trouble.  You play your best players at their respective positions and let the game dictate to you what substitutions need to be made.

Juan gets in trouble playing alongside Steve and Deonte?  Bring Derrick in to fill his slot in the zone.  Steve gets in trouble - slide Juan to the center position, bring in Derrick to fill Juan's slot.  Dawson could also have given time at that forward position in the zone.

Yes you do! Of course you do! Every coach in America thinks about that and plans for a strategy in case it happens! The difference is most coaches have the luxury of having at least one legitimate center and several players with enough size to fill in if that center gets in foul trouble. We did not! We had zero centers, one true forward, and three wings with enough size to fill in when necessary. You have to be very strategic with your rotations. Because if Deonte and Juan (our two most foul prone players) pick up two fouls before the first media timeout, we are screwed. Suddenly Sandy and Steve have to play the whole first half. Neither has the stamina to do that effectively and it increases their risk for fouls. If your not careful, JjJ ends up playing the 4 with Sandy at the 5 and we're getting blown out by 30.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2014, 04:54:06 PMI don't agree with Brew. I think Derrick was acting as three due to his placement in the defense. But if you recognize that Derrick was the three than you also have to recognize that Deonte was the four.

Derrick played 1-3 on defense, but was strictly a PG on offense (usually PG1).

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on December 11, 2014, 03:32:33 PM
Everybody but 1 person has stopped to consider that.

Well played.  And notice that nobody had to ask who that one person is....

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:48:10 PM
Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player

On paper this might be true, and I wish like heck it had been true in games because he'd be playing 30 mpg for the Warriors if it were. Unfortunately, Deonte was extremely imperfect.

Most "gave him a pass" because of his personal situation, but ...

He was nothing special on offense, he somehow managed to be the worst rebounder on the team, he had 5 times as many TOs as assists, he couldn't guard anybody in m-t-m, he didn't get how to play our zone (which is amazing because I coach 7th grade girls who get the 2-3) and he too often seemed to be drifting.

One could argue quite successfully that Deonte hadn't even earned the minutes he was getting from Wojo.

Maybe all he needs is some time off and a change of scenery. I hope he has a successful career and a great life.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 11, 2014, 04:08:38 PM
The problem with entering that vortex is that you never are able to return.

The good news is that you never have to go in in the first place.  Ners could just argue with himself.  It'd probably take a year or so for him to realize nobody else is there....

Again, Wojo preferred this season (so far) to play a 3 guard lineup, for like 95% of the minutes available. Deonte is not a guard. So one of Duane, Carlino, Derrick has to play low on the zone. Derrick is the preferred choice out of those 3. Seems pretty straight-forward. There was no cross-over between Deonte's minutes and Derrick's minutes BECAUSE Wojo wanted 3 guards on the floor. If Derrick wasn't on it, Duane, Carlino, JJJ or Dawson would have gotten his minutes. So, if you want to criticize Wojo's decision to play 3 guards and how that effected Deonte's minutes, go right ahead - that's a more valid argument. However, it was an argument no one was making at all this semester so far.

Deonte was not as productive this year, for whatever reason. If Deonte had been as productive, or more productive, compared to last year, I'm sure he would have seen more minutes.

Having said that, I wish Deonte were still here.

Having sad that, there are a lot of assumptions being made as to how much effort Wojo put into trying to keep Deonte here. Does anyone actually know? I highly doubt it.

It's boiled down to this: Well, two coaches who get paid millions of dollars seem to think Derrick being on the floor 30 minutes per game gives us the best chance to win.  And the whole premise of course that NEVER, EVER could a head coach have it wrong about a player.  Just simply can't happen, because they get paid millions of dollars.

1)  Last year's coach is gone at an outpost at Va Tech - and his team finished perhaps the most disappointing 17-15 team in school history.  This board collectively thought that team would go to the NCAA and make some noise.  It didn't even make the NIT.  So, what happened?  Buzz turned in a crappy coaching performance.

2)  This year's coach just lost our All Big East Freshman, Top 50 recruit.  We've lost to Nebraska-Omaha.  Snuck by NJIT.  We've glorified our "close losses" to OSU, MSU, and WI.  Prior to Deonte's defection, Ken Pom had us going 2-16 in the Big East based on how we played through 8 games.

So, once again, if Wojo, like Buzz rides Derrick 30 minutes, we won't win more than 5 conference games this year.  What won't be a coincidence is that our 2 worst years since entering the Big East coincided with Derrick Wilson being GIVEN (not earning) 30+ minutes per game.  This team had 7, Top 100 players on its roster at the start of the year.  There is talent there.  Enough talent that it should finish at least in the top half of The Big East if it is coached well.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 03:48:10 PM
I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

Does it ever make you wonder why the majority of people defend a PG that can't score, that can't shoot threes, and can't shoot free throws?  

It is because of how crazy you are.  You are a complete antagonist.  You make everyone circle the wagons for a PG shooting 30% from the line.  It isn't because we all love missed free throws.  It is because you are completely nuts. 

Ners, simple solution.  Go be a fan of a team whose coach matches your basketball acumen.  Leave us alone to root for the team coached by a bunch of dumbasses.  We apparently don't  know the difference, and are too busy wiping up our own drool to care.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 11, 2014, 07:05:14 PM
Ners, simple solution.  Go be a fan of a team whose coach matches your basketball acumen.  Leave us alone to root for the team coached by a bunch of dumbasses.  We apparently don't  know the difference, and are too busy wiping up our own drool to care.

Agreed. I hear Bo is looking for more fans.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 06:49:39 PMThis team had 7, Top 100 players on its roster at the start of the year.  There is talent there.  Enough talent that it should finish at least in the top half of The Big East if it is coached well.

Why do people keep insisting star rating equates to talent? The most talented player I ever watched in a Marquette uniform had fewer stars coming out of high school than Erik Williams or Jamail Jones. Ners, your favorite player for so long (other than John Dawson) was Davante Gardner, a 3-star that did more in a Marquette uniform than any of those top-100 players.

Recruiting rankings are great for publicity, but Butler and Creighton would happily tell you that results don't require top-100 recruits, they require the right players in the right system. Hype is just that until it proves itself, and these kids haven't proven anything yet.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
It's boiled down to this: Well, two coaches who get paid millions of dollars seem to think Derrick being on the floor 30 minutes per game gives us the best chance to win.  And the whole premise of course that NEVER, EVER could a head coach have it wrong about a player.  Just simply can't happen, because they get paid millions of dollars.

1)  Last year's coach is gone at an outpost at Va Tech - and his team finished perhaps the most disappointing 17-15 team in school history.  This board collectively thought that team would go to the NCAA and make some noise.  It didn't even make the NIT.  So, what happened?  Buzz turned in a crappy coaching performance.

2)  This year's coach just lost our All Big East Freshman, Top 50 recruit.  We've lost to Nebraska-Omaha.  Snuck by NJIT.  We've glorified our "close losses" to OSU, MSU, and WI.  Prior to Deonte's defection, Ken Pom had us going 2-16 in the Big East based on how we played through 8 games.

So, once again, if Wojo, like Buzz rides Derrick 30 minutes, we won't win more than 5 conference games this year.  What won't be a coincidence is that our 2 worst years since entering the Big East coincided with Derrick Wilson being GIVEN (not earning) 30+ minutes per game.  This team had 7, Top 100 players on its roster at the start of the year.  There is talent there.  Enough talent that it should finish at least in the top half of The Big East if it is coached well.

Just when I thought you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you post this....and totally prove me wrong.

Quote from: NersEllenson on December 11, 2014, 06:49:39 PM
It's boiled down to this: Well, two coaches who get paid millions of dollars seem to think Derrick being on the floor 30 minutes per game gives us the best chance to win.  And the whole premise of course that NEVER, EVER could a head coach have it wrong about a player.  Just simply can't happen, because they get paid millions of dollars.

1)  Last year's coach is gone at an outpost at Va Tech - and his team finished perhaps the most disappointing 17-15 team in school history.  This board collectively thought that team would go to the NCAA and make some noise.  It didn't even make the NIT.  So, what happened?  Buzz turned in a crappy coaching performance.

2)  This year's coach just lost our All Big East Freshman, Top 50 recruit.  We've lost to Nebraska-Omaha.  Snuck by NJIT.  We've glorified our "close losses" to OSU, MSU, and WI.  Prior to Deonte's defection, Ken Pom had us going 2-16 in the Big East based on how we played through 8 games.

So, once again, if Wojo, like Buzz rides Derrick 30 minutes, we won't win more than 5 conference games this year.  What won't be a coincidence is that our 2 worst years since entering the Big East coincided with Derrick Wilson being GIVEN (not earning) 30+ minutes per game.  This team had 7, Top 100 players on its roster at the start of the year.  There is talent there.  Enough talent that it should finish at least in the top half of The Big East if it is coached well.

Great post and I couldn't agree more! Derrick plays 30mpg here on out, we win 2 conference games in my estimation. Last year and so far this year have been by far, the most frustrating and perplexing years as a Marquette fan. I won't mention why, but you can draw your own conclusions.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2014, 02:30:34 PM
I'm curious TW, what did Wojo not do that you think he should have done. I don't have details but I imagine that Wojo tried just about everything he could to keep Burton in the fold and help him in this difficult time in his life.

When a kid gets to the level of a high D-1 program it is not something that just happened. It is a function of a lifetime worth of work. I know you have been around enough college programs to know that. For the vast majority of these kids their identity and their sport are one and the same.  So when a kid who has been the top guy suddenly falls out of favor, for probably the first time in his life, it is a big big deal. This is what happens when you reach D-1 and you first realize there are other guys just as good as you, who want it just as much.  When this fall from grace happens the very first thing a kid thinks is I will transfer. I have seen this first hand. I know you know this because you publish the transfer stats. Typically this a problem of the kid not being able to see the forest through the trees.  Which I what I think transpired here. As many observers have pointed out, it was just a matter of time for Luke to arrive and Deontes role was going to change significantly for the better. In normal circumstances I think the kid would have been able to see that more clearly. Right now he is a lot more vulnerable with the loss of his mother. Remember there are all sorts of people around these kids telling them they are going to the NBA etc , so this very public loss of playing status gets blown up to epic proportions in the kids mind. Now through in the whole notion that Wojo was peddling about the team being family. These kids bought into that. They are also extraordinarily close to each other. So when Dawson, who everyone knows is very tight with Deonte, got nailed to the bench, there was collateral damage done with Deonte. Misery loves company and it becomes a very pronounced downward cycle and trust in the coach is lost. Things are seen in the worst light and it gets ugly for them there.

Wojo on the other hand is an adult and  should be able to see the forest through the trees. I think he didn't either. He got caught up in being a tough guy and delivering tough love by benching the kid. In this case tough love was not  a wise  thing. Not necessary because he is dealing with a quality individual. Deonte by all accounts and my own personal observations is a hard working student and worked hard in practice. For whatever reason, things weren't exactly clicking the way they should have been this year.  So what, they haven't for almost everyone else on the team at one point or another. The mistake I think Wojo made was not throwing the bones to the kid in a way that kept him him fully engaged in a positive way. The kid only has one tool to respond with when he feels cornered which is to transfer. Wojo has multiple tools to keep the kid from feeling that way. In this case it was of paramount importance  to understand teenage group psychology also due to our small roster size.  

Wojo was running 8 kids. Equal play time was 25 minutes apiece. By necessity, Juan and Steve needed to be 30 plus. Evenly spread out the rest and your at 22-23. Then be smart about  the staging of it,  For example why not show the confidence in Deonte and have him play the last 6 minutes of the Badger game. That way the kid knows in the biggest  game of the year the coach believed in him. That also gives him a segway into reinforcing things in practice etc etc.

It just seems to me this particular case called for more flexibility on the coaches behalf than normal. Some might call it coddling, I call it being realistic and pragmatic given the bigger picture. Wojo was unflexible and looked at is a plain vanilla playing time dispute and we are where we are with a mid season transfer. He pulled no punches about that in the JS article.

The cursing incident with Juan I think showed a side of Wojo that is coloring some of my view here. Why the heck would you get in the face of the kid who has actually worked the hardest of anyone on the team this year. I think he is very narrowly focused at times. Wojo may be able to sell the big picture recruiting, but he is still a rookie coach and he is going to make rookie coach mistakes and they will be colored by his own personality traits.  I underestimated the learning curve part about him going into the season and thought he would step right in . I still support him and believe his heart is in the right place. Hopefully he learns as he goes along .

At this point we are going to need a big contribution from Luke and JJJ needs to take advantage of the opportunity he is now being given.

Texas, I really liked this post.  I wish you would have started the thread with something like this because it was a little more reflective than the first one.

The only disagreement I have is throwing him a bone by playing him the last six minutes of the UW game.  Not worth debating any longer however so I won't.  But thank you.

The only "side" I'll agree with, is that it is absolutely dumb to play any kid at any level simply for fear of them transferring.

Quote from: Texas Western on December 11, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
When a kid gets to the level of a high D-1 program it is not something that just happened. It is a function of a lifetime worth of work. I know you have been around enough college programs to know that. For the vast majority of these kids their identity and their sport are one and the same.  So when a kid who has been the top guy suddenly falls out of favor, for probably the first time in his life, it is a big big deal. This is what happens when you reach D-1 and you first realize there are other guys just as good as you, who want it just as much.  When this fall from grace happens the very first thing a kid thinks is I will transfer. I have seen this first hand. I know you know this because you publish the transfer stats. Typically this a problem of the kid not being able to see the forest through the trees.  Which I what I think transpired here. As many observers have pointed out, it was just a matter of time for Luke to arrive and Deontes role was going to change significantly for the better. In normal circumstances I think the kid would have been able to see that more clearly. Right now he is a lot more vulnerable with the loss of his mother. Remember there are all sorts of people around these kids telling them they are going to the NBA etc , so this very public loss of playing status gets blown up to epic proportions in the kids mind. Now through in the whole notion that Wojo was peddling about the team being family. These kids bought into that. They are also extraordinarily close to each other. So when Dawson, who everyone knows is very tight with Deonte, got nailed to the bench, there was collateral damage done with Deonte. Misery loves company and it becomes a very pronounced downward cycle and trust in the coach is lost. Things are seen in the worst light and it gets ugly for them there.

Wojo on the other hand is an adult and  should be able to see the forest through the trees. I think he didn't either. He got caught up in being a tough guy and delivering tough love by benching the kid. In this case tough love was not  a wise  thing. Not necessary because he is dealing with a quality individual. Deonte by all accounts and my own personal observations is a hard working student and worked hard in practice. For whatever reason, things weren't exactly clicking the way they should have been this year.  So what, they haven't for almost everyone else on the team at one point or another. The mistake I think Wojo made was not throwing the bones to the kid in a way that kept him him fully engaged in a positive way. The kid only has one tool to respond with when he feels cornered which is to transfer. Wojo has multiple tools to keep the kid from feeling that way. In this case it was of paramount importance  to understand teenage group psychology also due to our small roster size.  

Wojo was running 8 kids. Equal play time was 25 minutes apiece. By necessity, Juan and Steve needed to be 30 plus. Evenly spread out the rest and your at 22-23. Then be smart about  the staging of it,  For example why not show the confidence in Deonte and have him play the last 6 minutes of the Badger game. That way the kid knows in the biggest  game of the year the coach believed in him. That also gives him a segway into reinforcing things in practice etc etc.

It just seems to me this particular case called for more flexibility on the coaches behalf than normal. Some might call it coddling, I call it being realistic and pragmatic given the bigger picture. Wojo was unflexible and looked at is a plain vanilla playing time dispute and we are where we are with a mid season transfer. He pulled no punches about that in the JS article.

The cursing incident with Juan I think showed a side of Wojo that is coloring some of my view here. Why the heck would you get in the face of the kid who has actually worked the hardest of anyone on the team this year. I think he is very narrowly focused at times. Wojo may be able to sell the big picture recruiting, but he is still a rookie coach and he is going to make rookie coach mistakes and they will be colored by his own personality traits.  I underestimated the learning curve part about him going into the season and thought he would step right in . I still support him and believe his heart is in the right place. Hopefully he learns as he goes along .

At this point we are going to need a big contribution from Luke and JJJ needs to take advantage of the opportunity he is now being given.

I have no problem with this post.  However, it is much different in tone and words compared to the original post of this thread which basically said Wojo was dishonest to Dawson and wasted a year of his eligibility.

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 11, 2014, 09:22:38 PM
The only "side" I'll agree with, is that it is absolutely dumb to play any kid at any level simply for fear of them transferring.

That's not what he's saying at all.

Let's put it differently.  I have a guy right now who's fairly inexperienced but has all the talent in the world and has been doing well.  Three months ago him and his wife said goodbye to their six month old who had some complications from childbirth.  Now to his credit he shows up to work every day but I can tell he's just not 100% with it and his production is diminished.

Should I handle his loss of productivity a little differently given the circumstances?  I think so.  If anything I've gone out of my way to throw him some bones to get him going because I know that the faster he gets his head together the better it is for him and ultimately the better it is for my numbers and my staff.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 11, 2014, 09:23:01 PM
I have no problem with this post.  However, it is much different in tone and words compared to the original post of this thread which basically said Wojo was dishonest to Dawson and wasted a year of his eligibility.

+1

If this had been the original post, this thread would have ended after a couple of pages with most of us thanking TW for his insight.  It was the statement about Wojo not being honest with John that set me off, and I suspect many others.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 11, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
Great post and I couldn't agree more! Derrick plays 30mpg here on out, we win 2 conference games in my estimation. Last year and so far this year have been by far, the most frustrating and perplexing years as a Marquette fan. I won't mention why, but you can draw your own conclusions.

+1

8th or 9th in the Big East easily....

Plus win 2 Games maybe since Depaul is no pushover.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 09:32:56 PM
That's not what he's saying at all.

Let's put it differently.  I have a guy right now who's fairly inexperienced but has all the talent in the world and has been doing well.  Three months ago him and his wife said goodbye to their six month old who had some complications from childbirth.  Now to his credit he shows up to work every day but I can tell he's just not 100% with it and his production is diminished.

Should I handle his loss of productivity a little differently given the circumstances?  I think so.  If anything I've gone out of my way to throw him some bones to get him going because I know that the faster he gets his head together the better it is for him and ultimately the better it is for my numbers and my staff.

I wasn't referring to Ners. But it has been implied and mentioned in this thread that that is exactly what Wojo, or other coaches, should do in the situation.

Also, yes you should do that. But, during your employee's difficult time, do you lighten his workload, allowing his mental health/well-being to recover and time at home to be focused on "home"? Or do you increase his work?  Further, can you precisely define these "bones" that you keep mentioning?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 11, 2014, 09:32:56 PM
That's not what he's saying at all.

Let's put it differently.  I have a guy right now who's fairly inexperienced but has all the talent in the world and has been doing well.  Three months ago him and his wife said goodbye to their six month old who had some complications from childbirth.  Now to his credit he shows up to work every day but I can tell he's just not 100% with it and his production is diminished.

Should I handle his loss of productivity a little differently given the circumstances?  I think so.  If anything I've gone out of my way to throw him some bones to get him going because I know that the faster he gets his head together the better it is for him and ultimately the better it is for my numbers and my staff.

I think you keep the guy on the payroll but you don't have him making the presentation to your most important client until he's ready. In other words, he on scholarship but on the bench until he gets his head together

Quote from: Texas Western on December 11, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
When a kid gets to the level of a high D-1 program it is not something that just happened. It is a function of a lifetime worth of work. I know you have been around enough college programs to know that. For the vast majority of these kids their identity and their sport are one and the same.  So when a kid who has been the top guy suddenly falls out of favor, for probably the first time in his life, it is a big big deal. This is what happens when you reach D-1 and you first realize there are other guys just as good as you, who want it just as much.  When this fall from grace happens the very first thing a kid thinks is I will transfer. I have seen this first hand. I know you know this because you publish the transfer stats. Typically this a problem of the kid not being able to see the forest through the trees.  Which I what I think transpired here. As many observers have pointed out, it was just a matter of time for Luke to arrive and Deontes role was going to change significantly for the better. In normal circumstances I think the kid would have been able to see that more clearly. Right now he is a lot more vulnerable with the loss of his mother. Remember there are all sorts of people around these kids telling them they are going to the NBA etc , so this very public loss of playing status gets blown up to epic proportions in the kids mind. Now through in the whole notion that Wojo was peddling about the team being family. These kids bought into that. They are also extraordinarily close to each other. So when Dawson, who everyone knows is very tight with Deonte, got nailed to the bench, there was collateral damage done with Deonte. Misery loves company and it becomes a very pronounced downward cycle and trust in the coach is lost. Things are seen in the worst light and it gets ugly for them there.

Wojo on the other hand is an adult and  should be able to see the forest through the trees. I think he didn't either. He got caught up in being a tough guy and delivering tough love by benching the kid. In this case tough love was not  a wise  thing. Not necessary because he is dealing with a quality individual. Deonte by all accounts and my own personal observations is a hard working student and worked hard in practice. For whatever reason, things weren't exactly clicking the way they should have been this year.  So what, they haven't for almost everyone else on the team at one point or another. The mistake I think Wojo made was not throwing the bones to the kid in a way that kept him him fully engaged in a positive way. The kid only has one tool to respond with when he feels cornered which is to transfer. Wojo has multiple tools to keep the kid from feeling that way. In this case it was of paramount importance  to understand teenage group psychology also due to our small roster size.  

Wojo was running 8 kids. Equal play time was 25 minutes apiece. By necessity, Juan and Steve needed to be 30 plus. Evenly spread out the rest and your at 22-23. Then be smart about  the staging of it,  For example why not show the confidence in Deonte and have him play the last 6 minutes of the Badger game. That way the kid knows in the biggest  game of the year the coach believed in him. That also gives him a segway into reinforcing things in practice etc etc.

It just seems to me this particular case called for more flexibility on the coaches behalf than normal. Some might call it coddling, I call it being realistic and pragmatic given the bigger picture. Wojo was unflexible and looked at is a plain vanilla playing time dispute and we are where we are with a mid season transfer. He pulled no punches about that in the JS article.

The cursing incident with Juan I think showed a side of Wojo that is coloring some of my view here. Why the heck would you get in the face of the kid who has actually worked the hardest of anyone on the team this year. I think he is very narrowly focused at times. Wojo may be able to sell the big picture recruiting, but he is still a rookie coach and he is going to make rookie coach mistakes and they will be colored by his own personality traits.  I underestimated the learning curve part about him going into the season and thought he would step right in . I still support him and believe his heart is in the right place. Hopefully he learns as he goes along .

At this point we are going to need a big contribution from Luke and JJJ needs to take advantage of the opportunity he is now being given.

TW, thank you for the thoughtful and reflective post. I really enjoyed reading it.

I am sure there were mistakes made by Wojo. A rookie coach will make a lot of them. I think "bones" can be tossed Deonte's way. I think giving him time, space, support, whatever he needs to recover (as much as anyone could recover from that terrible of a situation). But these need to be given during practice, team meetings, off the court. Not during game time IMHO. It may sound cold, but Wojo is here to win basketball games. A coach needs to stick to the game plan that he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. Based on this team's lineup and his production, Burton was getting about I would expect. Same goes for Dawson. Wojo was running a 8 man rotation and Dawson was the 9th man. He played in our one blowout game and sat in the seven close games. I don't think he was nailed to the bench, I think he just wasn't in the rotation.

I think Wojo was also flexible with his playing time. When Deonte played well against Michigan State, he played a season high 22 minutes. When he wasn't playing well, he played a season low 11 minutes. He was getting chances and was rewarded when he was doing well. You mentioned letting him play the last six minutes of the Wisconsin game. I disagree. We were in that game until about 1:12 left in the second half. In a rivlary game, at home, against the number two team in the nation, you play to win. That isn't the venue to "throw some bones."

I also remember the Juan incident a little differently. I could be wrong, but I remember Juan swearing at Wojo, than being pulled away by Steve, and then afterward Wojo and Juan talked one on one. Whatever they talked about worked because Juan came back with a vengeance.

I am sure there are things that Wojo could have done better. Both on the court and off the court. I think with more experience, he may have been able to navigate this situation to a different outcome. But my impression of the situation is that Wojo tried his damnedest and was upfront and honest throughout the process.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 11, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
Great post and I couldn't agree more! Derrick plays 30mpg here on out, we win 2 conference games in my estimation. Last year and so far this year have been by far, the most frustrating and perplexing years as a Marquette fan. I won't mention why, but you can draw your own conclusions.

We're small, can't shoot very well and don't guard people. And there are only 8 available bodies. No matter the combinations and permutations employed it's going to be a tough year. And that's true whether Derrick plays 40 mpg or quits the team tomorrow. Blaming him is as wrong as it is mean spirited.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 11, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
Great post and I couldn't agree more! Derrick plays 30mpg here on out, we win 2 conference games in my estimation. Last year and so far this year have been by far, the most frustrating and perplexing years as a Marquette fan. I won't mention why, but you can draw your own conclusions.

So the Mojo that Wojo has is that he is incompetent.  Humm...okay.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2014, 10:51:25 PM
We're small, can't shoot very well and don't guard people. And there are only 8 available bodies. No matter the combinations and permutations employed it's going to be a tough year. And that's true whether Derrick plays 40 mpg or quits the team tomorrow. Blaming him is as wrong as it is mean spirited.

The issue is that with both Deonte and Dawson on the roster, Ken Pom was still forecasting us at 1-17/2-16 in Big East play.  So, our body of work through 8 games, what was being tried, was such that we projected out that poorly.  6 of the 8 guys that were being played are Top 100 recruits.  And that doesn't include Carlino, who's arguably been our best player.  There was a good foundation of talent for us to win games.  Having said that, even if the minutes were distributed differently - we still probably lose to OSU, MSU.  Think the WI game and Omaha game were winnable with a different mix of players.

Losing Deonte was a big blow to the program.  And I was disappointed with Wojo's relatively cavalier comments on the matter.

Nonetheless, given that we still have 6 Top 100s, plus a 5th year senior in Carlino - I do think we will win more than 2 Big East Games.  But, will be surprised if we win more than 5.  Unless JJJ, Cohen REALLY step up big time.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on December 11, 2014, 04:00:55 PM

This is good stuff right here

Quote from: Nevada233 on December 11, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
+1

8th or 9th in the Big East easily....

Plus win 2 Games maybe since Depaul is no pushover.

(A) KenPom has been saying 1-2 Big East wins all along.
(B)  Every outsider looking in picked MU for the bottom part of the Big East
(C)  This year isn't about the results.   They aren't going to be great.   It is about the process and building for the future, both the players and the coaching staff.   

Quote from: Texas Western on December 11, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
When a kid gets to the level of a high D-1 program it is not something that just happened. It is a function of a lifetime worth of work. I know you have been around enough college programs to know that. For the vast majority of these kids their identity and their sport are one and the same.  So when a kid who has been the top guy suddenly falls out of favor, for probably the first time in his life, it is a big big deal. This is what happens when you reach D-1 and you first realize there are other guys just as good as you, who want it just as much.  When this fall from grace happens the very first thing a kid thinks is I will transfer. I have seen this first hand. I know you know this because you publish the transfer stats. Typically this a problem of the kid not being able to see the forest through the trees.  Which I what I think transpired here. As many observers have pointed out, it was just a matter of time for Luke to arrive and Deontes role was going to change significantly for the better. In normal circumstances I think the kid would have been able to see that more clearly. Right now he is a lot more vulnerable with the loss of his mother. Remember there are all sorts of people around these kids telling them they are going to the NBA etc , so this very public loss of playing status gets blown up to epic proportions in the kids mind. Now through in the whole notion that Wojo was peddling about the team being family. These kids bought into that. They are also extraordinarily close to each other. So when Dawson, who everyone knows is very tight with Deonte, got nailed to the bench, there was collateral damage done with Deonte. Misery loves company and it becomes a very pronounced downward cycle and trust in the coach is lost. Things are seen in the worst light and it gets ugly for them there.

Wojo on the other hand is an adult and  should be able to see the forest through the trees. I think he didn't either. He got caught up in being a tough guy and delivering tough love by benching the kid. In this case tough love was not  a wise  thing. Not necessary because he is dealing with a quality individual. Deonte by all accounts and my own personal observations is a hard working student and worked hard in practice. For whatever reason, things weren't exactly clicking the way they should have been this year.  So what, they haven't for almost everyone else on the team at one point or another. The mistake I think Wojo made was not throwing the bones to the kid in a way that kept him him fully engaged in a positive way. The kid only has one tool to respond with when he feels cornered which is to transfer. Wojo has multiple tools to keep the kid from feeling that way. In this case it was of paramount importance  to understand teenage group psychology also due to our small roster size.  

Wojo was running 8 kids. Equal play time was 25 minutes apiece. By necessity, Juan and Steve needed to be 30 plus. Evenly spread out the rest and your at 22-23. Then be smart about  the staging of it,  For example why not show the confidence in Deonte and have him play the last 6 minutes of the Badger game. That way the kid knows in the biggest  game of the year the coach believed in him. That also gives him a segway into reinforcing things in practice etc etc.

It just seems to me this particular case called for more flexibility on the coaches behalf than normal. Some might call it coddling, I call it being realistic and pragmatic given the bigger picture. Wojo was unflexible and looked at is a plain vanilla playing time dispute and we are where we are with a mid season transfer. He pulled no punches about that in the JS article.

The cursing incident with Juan I think showed a side of Wojo that is coloring some of my view here. Why the heck would you get in the face of the kid who has actually worked the hardest of anyone on the team this year. I think he is very narrowly focused at times. Wojo may be able to sell the big picture recruiting, but he is still a rookie coach and he is going to make rookie coach mistakes and they will be colored by his own personality traits.  I underestimated the learning curve part about him going into the season and thought he would step right in . I still support him and believe his heart is in the right place. Hopefully he learns as he goes along .

At this point we are going to need a big contribution from Luke and JJJ needs to take advantage of the opportunity he is now being given.

TW, I really like this take. Thanks for taking the time to present it.

I disagree that Burton should have been handed the final 6 minutes of the Wisconsin game -- it was still winnable and he clearly was not one of our best players that day. And isn't it possible that Deonte had made up his mind before then, anyway?

My only other slight disagreement is that I am not the least bit surprised by Wojo's learning curve. You are smart enough to know that a guy who had never been a high-major head coach rarely "steps right in." Going from an assistant to a head coach is a HUGE step up, and Wojo will still be learning -- especially in the ego-management and game-decision departments -- for several years.

Otherwise, I am on board with everything you said here. Great job.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
I think you keep the guy on the payroll but you don't have him making the presentation to your most important client until he's ready. In other words, he on scholarship but on the bench until he gets his head together

Exactly my view as well.  You obviously aren't going to fire him.  You give him time to get his head together and become productive again.  In this case, exactly as Lenny said.  Wojo didn't cut him and obviously shouldn't.  He put him out on the court when he saw a spot Deonte could help the team and maybe where it could help him be productive.

Quote from: LittleMurs on December 11, 2014, 11:41:53 PM
So the Mojo that Wojo has is that he is incompetent.  Humm...okay.

Remember that this guy's name was "Buzz Crush" or something similar last year.  He's pretty fickle. 

Based on everything I've read on the board and in conversations I've had with people outside of the board I think Texas's last post is a pretty good summary of what went down.

Burton is in a negative space due to his circumstances and that carried over to his perception of the team, especially with what was going on with Dawson.  He also is self-aware enough to know his performance hasn't been great and struggles with that because he's a competitor.  He has his coach hammering away on him with what he's not doing right in an effort to improve him but it isn't always received well.  Lastly, he's got a lot of outside influences in his ear that only feed into the negative viewpoint.

Meanwhile Wojo is a competitor and is trying to fight with a roster not of his making and with some pretty obvious gaps.  He is trying to get the pieces to fit, some of which he needs to force in practice, etc.  He has to also try to manage teenagers especially through some very difficult challenges while himself trying to fly with out a net for the first time.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think both Wojo and Burton will recognize this as an opportunity missed.  Wojo and MU will be fine, and in some ways better for it as Wojo will have a lesson learned as will the rest of the team.  It is my sincere hope that Burton will be better for this as well and at a minimum lands on his feet and in a situation that meets his needs.

I truly think as fans, we chock this up to a missed opportunity with fault on all sides.  I also think it is ridiculous to assign the various playing minutes as anything other than a factor that clouded the issue, it's certainly not the root cause.

Quote from: tower912 on December 12, 2014, 06:15:06 AM
(A) KenPom has been saying 1-2 Big East wins all along.
(B)  Every outsider looking in picked MU for the bottom part of the Big East
(C)  This year isn't about the results.   They aren't going to be great.   It is about the process and building for the future, both the players and the coaching staff.

(A) Not true. The BEast was undervalued in his model to start the year, and we were projected 87th at the outset and have subsequently slid to 109. Additionally, game by game projections have us favored to win two games, but in aggregate go 6-12. I know you're not the one making the second error, but I've seen it out there many times. KenPom actually predicts us to win 6 conference games. Spliltting hairs though. Brutal either way.

(C) Correct. So quit riding a proven losing horse (Derrick) and go with the future. The constant message should be growth and the future. Live through in-game mistakes then critique them on film post mortem. This year could be an incredible teaching tool to prep the guys who will surround Henry next year. Major opportunity, I hope it gets used.

There are 8 scholarship players.   Everybody is going to get plenty of minutes.   Duane is averaging around 30.  He is the PG of the future.   It is up to JJJ to step up his game like Duane has and take Derrick's minutes.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 12, 2014, 11:25:15 AM

(C) Correct. So quit riding a proven losing horse (Derrick) and go with the future. The constant message should be growth and the future. Live through in-game mistakes then critique them on film post mortem. This year could be an incredible teaching tool to prep the guys who will surround Henry next year. Major opportunity, I hope it gets used.

Coaches don't think like this, especially before the first conference game even has been played.

Believe me, Wojo thinks, "If we can gel as a team with Luke now available, mostly hold serve at home, steal a few on the road, who knows? Maybe we can even sneak into the tourney."

And while I agree this season is not going to result in an NCAA bid, I wouldn't discourage Wojo and the team from thinking it might.

Now, if our record is as bad as most of us think it will be by the time we get to February, then Wojo certainly should see the writing on the wall. But again, I don't blame him for not thinking that way yet.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 12, 2014, 11:25:15 AM

(C) Correct. So quit riding a proven losing horse (Derrick) and go with the future. The constant message should be growth and the future. Live through in-game mistakes then critique them on film post mortem. This year could be an incredible teaching tool to prep the guys who will surround Henry next year. Major opportunity, I hope it gets used.

Just as Buzz wanted his teams to be the toughest on the floor, so does Wojo. And even the Derrick-haters need to be able to see that it starts with Derrick and Juan. They are building the legacy for Wojo. They are the leaders that are passing the attitude forward to the next guys.

Watching this team, it's easy to see that Steve doesn't have the same leadership as DW or JA. Not that he doesn't play hard all the time, but he is just a quiet guy. So I really see this being Duane's team for the next couple of years - and thankfully he has a great teacher in Derrick.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 12, 2014, 08:31:42 AM

Remember that this guy's name was "Buzz Crush" or something similar last year.  He's pretty fickle. 

You know what my name was scoop stalker. I'm fine with being fickle in your opinion. I really don't care what a 50 year old guy who spends 18 hours a day on this message board thinks. I just checked the stats, you have spent over 8 1/2 months on this board since joining less than 6 years ago. You really need to find a hobby or something constructive to do. It's just not healthy.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 12, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
You know what my name was scoop stalker. I'm fine with being fickle in your opinion. I really don't care what a 50 year old guy who spends 18 hours a day on this message board thinks. I just checked the stats, you have spent over 8 1/2 months on this board since joining less than 6 years ago. You really need to find a hobby or something constructive to do. It's just not healthy.

Yikes, I'm thinking I need to do the same.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 12, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
You know what my name was scoop stalker. I'm fine with being fickle in your opinion. I really don't care what a 50 year old guy who spends 18 hours a day on this message board thinks. I just checked the stats, you have spent over 8 1/2 months on this board since joining less than 6 years ago. You really need to find a hobby or something constructive to do. It's just not healthy.

Rah!   Sultan has spent 8 months on this board,  while I have spwmt over a month here,   he so much worse than me. Rah!

At least the dude is rational and doesn't fly off the handle.  98% of people on this board love the team,  want them to do well,  represent the University well,  and if they win,  great,  coffee tastes a  bit better in the morning,  and we go on with our adult lives.

But y'all,  the spite,  hate,  and vitriol you carry around about certain coaches or players,  is just sad.  So yeah,  I am nerd and hang out here,  but at least I never assume I know more than a coach,  make judgements and put down players.

So go on with your awesome life,  judging by your post history,  I honestly think you will need the most luck you can get.

Quote from: reinko on December 12, 2014, 05:58:42 PM
Rah!   Sultan has spent 8 months on this board,  while I have spwmt over a month here,   he so much worse than me. Rah!

At least the dude is rational and doesn't fly off the handle.  98% of people on this board love the team,  want them to do well,  represent the University well,  and if they win,  great,  coffee tastes a  bit better in the morning,  and we go on with our adult lives.

But y'all,  the spite,  hate,  and vitriol you carry around about certain coaches or players,  is just sad.  So yeah,  I am nerd and hang out here,  but at least I never assume I know more than a coach,  make judgements and put down players.

So go on with your awesome life,  judging by your post history,  I honestly think you will need the most luck you can get.

Lol, congrats

Relax folks

Quote from: mu03eng on December 12, 2014, 08:35:31 AM
Based on everything I've read on the board and in conversations I've had with people outside of the board I think Texas's last post is a pretty good summary of what went down.

Burton is in a negative space due to his circumstances and that carried over to his perception of the team, especially with what was going on with Dawson.  He also is self-aware enough to know his performance hasn't been great and struggles with that because he's a competitor.  He has his coach hammering away on him with what he's not doing right in an effort to improve him but it isn't always received well.  Lastly, he's got a lot of outside influences in his ear that only feed into the negative viewpoint.

Meanwhile Wojo is a competitor and is trying to fight with a roster not of his making and with some pretty obvious gaps.  He is trying to get the pieces to fit, some of which he needs to force in practice, etc.  He has to also try to manage teenagers especially through some very difficult challenges while himself trying to fly with out a net for the first time.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think both Wojo and Burton will recognize this as an opportunity missed.  Wojo and MU will be fine, and in some ways better for it as Wojo will have a lesson learned as will the rest of the team.  It is my sincere hope that Burton will be better for this as well and at a minimum lands on his feet and in a situation that meets his needs.

I truly think as fans, we chock this up to a missed opportunity with fault on all sides.  I also think it is ridiculous to assign the various playing minutes as anything other than a factor that clouded the issue, it's certainly not the root cause.

I think this is probably close to the truth and also believe it's what TW was trying to project in the OP which I agreed with. Hope the best for everyone, learn from it and let's move forward.

Quote from: tower912 on December 12, 2014, 02:01:06 PM
There are 8 scholarship players.   Everybody is going to get plenty of minutes.   Duane is averaging around 30.  He is the PG of the future.   It is up to JJJ to step up his game like Duane has and take Derrick's minutes.

Nobody is "taking Derrick's minutes." Stop it. If anything he will play more. And he should. He's a Senior and hard-working and does not turn the ball over.

If he hits some shots all the better and tougher it will be to get him off the floor. Stop crying about his limitations.

I have fight the same kind of Bucks fans who whine about PG Brandon Knight because of one or two things he does not do overly well.

Look at what he does do well! PG is a hard position to play. In college and in the NBA. Derrick can defend his position and outwork the guy he is going up against.

Can he hit a college 3 pt shot? Maybe not as consistently as he or any of like, but he is a solid player and a great young man.

I have seen him mature every year and a he is a solid leader. He is the team Captain with Juan Anderson and I salute them both and I am going to enjoy their last 21 games or so as collegiate players at MU.

I saw them both walk in the door 4 years ago as wide eye freshman and want to see them walk out on their terms as winners. They will.

Texas.....excellent post.


I said much of the same in my post earlier. I think Deonte and J.D were roomies and he did not like how that was going down with his buddy and him.

I think the upperclassmen need to go and talk to Deonte right now and tell him to get back here. When they separated the upperclassmen from the under that has really made a divide between them I think is taxing.

It used to be they all were together in everything they did when I first got here and in two years they went to the Final Four. Team Unity was tight.

I do not want to play the blame game but this is all on Wojo. Plain and simple. He has brought in an rock star coaching staff and has 20 years under Coach K and he can't deal with the situations like this?

I can see if we are talking about knuckleheads but from what I have seen I do not think either John Dawson or Deonte Burton are such. Deonte needs to cool down and come on back.

Fischer now being able to play would have helped both of these guys and he enables them all to fit into roles. I am very bummed how all this is gone down and am weary of talking about it.

But all parties dropped the ball.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 13, 2014, 09:17:32 AM

I am very bummed how all this is gone down and am weary of talking about it.

Yet, you continue to do so, in the form of theories and suppositions of which you have no knowledge. Deonte needs to cool down? Really? How do you know that he was hot? Should Luke Fischer have cooled down and returned to IU?

Separating the upper and underclassmen is an issue? You know that how? One of the stranger things I've read on this topic.

"This is all on Wojo," and yet, "both parties dropped the ball." Which is it?

Time for everyone to drop the drama and theatrics. Players transfer...all the time. Some good, some bad. It happens to every program, every year. Fact is, had he transferred before the season stated/with the coaching change, nobody would have really said a much about it. The fact that he chose to stay, and later changed his mind, should not turn this into some sort of nuclear event.

If recent history is any indication, there is a good chance Wojo/MU will upgrade both scholarships as a result of this. This year really doesn't matter anyway, they aren't any good, and burton and Dawson weren't going to change that. In the end this probably makes MU better down the road.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 13, 2014, 09:17:32 AM
I do not want to play the blame game but this is all on Wojo.

My vote for most self-contradictory sentence of all time.

Anyhow, like everyone else here, you have no idea why Deonte is transferring.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on December 09, 2014, 08:40:28 PM

This.

I think its kind of disturbing that he thinks that Wojo should have given him 5 or 6 extra minutes per game because his mother died.

No he should have been given what he deserved and earned and been coached to his talent which he has.

For Wojo to say that he had players in front of Deonte who were "playing better then him" was a joke. They are different players!

Learn to coach different players man! Talent is talent. You have it or you don't. And he is a local kid too. Just very tacky if you ask me.

Not after 8 games and knowing this young man's situation, come on now.

You can't tell me that 1 or 2 of his All Americans on that coaching staff could not have helped both John or Deonte? Get real....

Deonte allowed the situation with Dawson to influence his decision.

If I am to look on the outside looking in I think Deonte saw Dawson as another family member and roomie leaving, and he related it and then paired with his situation and his mother's passing and got so upset he took off too. . .

Wojo in stubborn coaches pride already with only 8 players and not sense enough to know that Luke Fischer would have solved much of the issues he had with Deonte [rebounding and defense] having a big man back there and allowed Deonte to play up to his ability in other areas.

But he was too impatient to wait. One players strengths can cover the others weaknesses. That is how you build a team, not make clones.

One thing about many college coaches is they are playing their players out of ego and out of their natural positions. 

And they are forcing them into their system which is probably their right. But not in this case here.

This is my last post on this here... I think Coach Wojo needs to humble himself and send a coach or go back and get Deonte and even John on this team. It won't happen but it should.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 13, 2014, 09:49:51 AM
No he should have been given what he deserved and earned and been coached to his talent which he has.

For Wojo to say that he had players in front of Deonte who were "playing better then him" was a joke. They are different players!

Learn to coach different players man! Talent is talent. You have it or you don't. And he is a local kid too. Just very tacky if you ask me.

Not after 8 games and knowing this young man's situation, come on now.

You can't tell me that 1 or 2 of his All Americans on that coaching staff could not have helped both John or Deonte? Get real....

Deonte allowed the situation with Dawson to influence his decision.

If I am to look on the outside looking in I think Deonte saw Dawson as another family member and roomie leaving, and he related it and then paired with his situation and his mother's passing and got so upset he took off too. . .

Wojo in stubborn coaches pride already with only 8 players and not sense enough to know that Luke Fischer would have solved much of the issues he had with Deonte [rebounding and defense] having a big man back there and allowed Deonte to play up to his ability in other areas.

But he was too impatient to wait. One players strengths can cover the others weaknesses. That is how you build a team, not make clones.

One thing about many college coaches is they are playing their players out of ego and out of their natural positions. 

And they are forcing them into their system which is probably their right. But not in this case here.

This is my last post on this here... I think Coach Wojo needs to humble himself and send a coach or go back and get Deonte and even John on this team. It won't happen but it should.

Curious of your age,  20?  I ask because Wojo has probably been around D-1 ball longer than you have been alive.  Reading that post above just oozes of a millennial know it all.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 12, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
You know what my name was scoop stalker. I'm fine with being fickle in your opinion. I really don't care what a 50 year old guy who spends 18 hours a day on this message board thinks. I just checked the stats, you have spent over 8 1/2 months on this board since joining less than 6 years ago. You really need to find a hobby or something constructive to do. It's just not healthy.

How dare you call the Sultan out like that? Now you will be subject to many "rational" posts about how you are clueless.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 13, 2014, 09:45:02 AM
Yet, you continue to do so, in the form of theories and suppositions of which you have no knowledge. Deonte needs to cool down? Really? How do you know that he was hot? Should Luke Fischer have cooled down and returned to IU?

Separating the upper and underclassmen is an issue? You know that how? One of the stranger things I've read on this topic.

"This is all on Wojo," and yet, "both parties dropped the ball." Which is it?

Time for everyone to drop the drama and theatrics. Players transfer...all the time. Some good, some bad. It happens to every program, every year. Fact is, had he transferred before the season stated/with the coaching change, nobody would have really said a much about it. The fact that he chose to stay, and later changed his mind, should not turn this into some sort of nuclear event.

If recent history is any indication, there is a good chance Wojo/MU will upgrade both scholarships as a result of this. This year really doesn't matter anyway, they aren't any good, and burton and Dawson weren't going to change that. In the end this probably makes MU better down the road.

What recent history are you referring to?  Wojo has hardly been here.  We haven't even seen his recruiting class play a meaningful college minute yet.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 13, 2014, 11:38:20 AM
What recent history are you referring to?  Wojo has hardly been here.  We haven't even seen his recruiting class play a meaningful college minute yet.

Nice try, but the answer of course is the only recent history we have. How does the class Wojo recently signed stack up historically against other MU classes. Of course they haven't played yet, but in no way does that mean recent history doesn't indicate that he can get top rated talent. Let me take that step further to help you understand...if 18 months from now, these guys turn out as expected, the then current recent history will still indicate he can recruit top talent. If they don't, the then current recent history may indicate that maybe he can get highly rated players, but may not actually be going after the right guys/have a good eye for talent. Get it now?

All of that said, the recent history we have indicates that he can recruit top talent. it really isn't complicated if you are willing to look at it objectively, as opposed to through the filter of anger over a player deciding to transfer out of MU.

Quote from: reinko on December 13, 2014, 10:13:59 AM
Curious of your age,  20?  I ask because Wojo has probably been around D-1 ball longer than you have been alive.  Reading that post above just oozes of a millennial know it all.

Not only young, but sounds like an amateur psychologist as we'll.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 13, 2014, 11:50:20 AM
Nice try, but the answer of course is the only recent history we have. How does the class Wojo recently signed stack up historically against other MU classes. Of course they haven't played yet, but in no way does that mean recent history doesn't indicate that he can get top rated talent. Let me take that step further to help you understand...if 18 months from now, these guys turn out as expected, the then current recent history will still indicate he can recruit top talent. If they don't, the then current recent history may indicate that maybe he can get highly rated players, but may not actually be going after the right guys/have a good eye for talent. Get it now?

All of that said, the recent history we have indicates that he can recruit top talent. it really isn't complicated if you are willing to look at it objectively, as opposed to through the filter of anger over a player deciding to transfer out of MU.

Buzz's last two recruiting classes were consensus top 15 classes, the incoming class is a consensus top 10.

'If my optimism is any indication' or 'If my hopefulness is any indication' would have been appropriate since your prognosis is entirely based on your optimism and hope.

Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Wisconsin pays better.

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Bo recruits a lot of kids who don't have it in their head they're going to play at the next level.  That program is the exception almost to the extreme, not the rule in today's college basketball world.  It's an apples and oranges comparison.

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Bo recruits players who aren't very good until their senior years. Wisconsin would be the best place they could go. Then they aren't very good after they leave Wisconsin because he's developed them in a way that will only work in his system.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on December 13, 2014, 09:49:51 AM
No he should have been given what he deserved and earned and been coached to his talent which he has.

For Wojo to say that he had players in front of Deonte who were "playing better then him" was a joke. They are different players!

Learn to coach different players man! Talent is talent. You have it or you don't. And he is a local kid too. Just very tacky if you ask me.

Not after 8 games and knowing this young man's situation, come on now.

You can't tell me that 1 or 2 of his All Americans on that coaching staff could not have helped both John or Deonte? Get real....

Deonte allowed the situation with Dawson to influence his decision.

If I am to look on the outside looking in I think Deonte saw Dawson as another family member and roomie leaving, and he related it and then paired with his situation and his mother's passing and got so upset he took off too. . .

Wojo in stubborn coaches pride already with only 8 players and not sense enough to know that Luke Fischer would have solved much of the issues he had with Deonte [rebounding and defense] having a big man back there and allowed Deonte to play up to his ability in other areas.

But he was too impatient to wait. One players strengths can cover the others weaknesses. That is how you build a team, not make clones.

One thing about many college coaches is they are playing their players out of ego and out of their natural positions. 

And they are forcing them into their system which is probably their right. But not in this case here.

This is my last post on this here... I think Coach Wojo needs to humble himself and send a coach or go back and get Deonte and even John on this team. It won't happen but it should.

I'll be honest.  I read this thing about five times and really can't figure out what you are trying to say here.  It's a series of disconnected thoughts and sentences.  Extremely difficult to read.

That being said I agree that Deonte should have "been given what he deserved and earned."  I think the rub is what he feels he "deserved and earned," is different than what Deonte felt he "deserved and earned."

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Wiscy players must just like all the Bo jobs they get.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on December 12, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
You know what my name was scoop stalker. I'm fine with being fickle in your opinion. I really don't care what a 50 year old guy who spends 18 hours a day on this message board thinks. I just checked the stats, you have spent over 8 1/2 months on this board since joining less than 6 years ago. You really need to find a hobby or something constructive to do. It's just not healthy.

Dude on message board complains that other dude on message board spends too much time on message board.

Quote from: TSmith34 on December 14, 2014, 07:06:53 AM
Dude on message board complains that other dude on message board spends too much time on message board.

Well played!

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Didn't Bo list about a hundred schools on the off-limits list of the last player who tried to transfer?  But no, that couldn't possibly play into it....

Quote from: jakeec on December 13, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Why do you guys think there is such a transfer epidemic right now?  Why do you think Badgers have not had many transfers?  Wisconsin has had 6 transfers in 11 years under Bo Ryan and Marquette has just had that the last 3 years.  I am just wondering why there is such a difference?

Most likely the biggest reason is that Bo is very adept at getting players to redshirt. A player is not unhappy with his playing time, if he redshirts and it also makes it less likely the player will transfer after redshirting. It works very well for Bo as it gives him an extra year to develop these players and keeps the team from having to rely on freshmen.

Quote from: bilsu on December 14, 2014, 09:19:18 AM
Most likely the biggest reason is that Bo is very adept at getting players to redshirt. A player is not unhappy with his playing time, if he redshirts and it also makes it less likely the player will transfer after redshirting. It works very well for Bo as it gives him an extra year to develop these players and keeps the team from having to rely on freshmen.

This is the biggest factor.  Very few people would transfer knowing they are losing a year of eligibility.