Have To Tell It Like It is

[MerrittsMustache]

Huh?  Who cares how the guys play in practice if it isn't translating to games.  And I'm not referring to Cohen or Duane here.  Furthermore, there was no reason for Deonte to have to eat into Duane, Cohen or JJJ's minutes.  He aint a 1/2 - he's a 3/4 combo/.  Perfect for the role Derrick's been playing.

As someone who has played basketball, I can tell you that it doesn't sit well with guys when someone is outperformed in practice but still gets minutes when the lights are on based off of potential that he isn't showing. I'm surprised you didn't now that  

Honest question, Ners: Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

[MerrittsMustache]

Because games are what matter.

I haven't seen a nationally televised practice ever.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

[NersEllenson]

As someone who has played basketball, I can tell you that it doesn't sit well with guys when someone is outperformed in practice but still gets minutes when the lights are on based off of potential that he isn't showing. I'm surprised you didn't now that  

Honest question, Ners: Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

That goes both ways - guys don't like sitting behind a player that is historically bad at their position once the lights come on and the games begin.

As for Burton - last year - we didn't have Carlino or Duane to handle ball handling.  Derrick was de facto PG and needed to play (albeit more than any of us wanted.)

This season, we have 2 very good options in both Duane and Carlino to handle the 1 and 2.  It isn't critical to have Derrick on the floor this season - or I should say - it wasn't critical.  Wojo wanted our guys to kick out on their drives against WI - if you are Duane and Carlino - and you have Derrick to kick out to at the 3 point line - do you do it?

Burton doesn't strike me as a Wojo player.  Wojo is the try hard, harder, hustle guy - he's not going to identify as well with a guy like Burton who has a ton of natural ability and isn't Mr. Scrappy.

Usually players don't regress in their development, but Burton certainly didn't look as good this year under Wojo as he did Buzz as a freshman.  I suspect that is a combination of grieving his Mom as well as not clicking with Wojo.

Big loss for MU regardless.  Burton is a major talent.  But as always the program and player move on...for better or worse.

[mattyv1908]

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

[NersEllenson]

How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

Game.  Set.  Match.

[MerrittsMustache]

How is it ignorant?  Mike McCarthy is on record stating how much it bothered him regarding Charles Woodson's lack of effort in practice.  He played every Sunday.  Are you a high effort, low talent guy in real life and therefore resent those who haven't had to try hard but when the lights go on they shine?

What have JJJ, Derrick, Steve and Juan shown you in games that have earned them the minutes they have played?

Bricked lay ups?

First of all, stop comparing college athletics to the NFL. They're completely different. Also, Charles Woodson is a horrible example because he was an established veteran, All-Pro player with a big-money contract. That's different than being a soph who "showed some flashes" as a freshman.

Nice try but actually, I'm a high talent, high effort guy which means that I don't like seeing people waste their talents but half-assing their way through things.


JJJ plays because he's a solid defender who brings energy and, despite his low shooting percentage, is an outside threat.  

Steve plays because he's the tallest guy on the team, he's a decent rebounder and he works hard to get open under the basket.

Derrick plays because he takes care of the ball, is a senior leader and is the team's best defender.

Juan plays because he brings energy, some semblance of size, hits the boards, can score from time to time and understands Wojo's defense.

I'll ask again: What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

[mattyv1908]

First of all, stop comparing college athletics to the NFL. They're completely different. Also, Charles Woodson is a horrible example because he was an established veteran, All-Pro player with a big-money contract. That's different than being a soph who "showed some flashes" as a freshman.

Nice try but actually, I'm a high talent, high effort guy which means that I don't like seeing people waste their talents but half-assing their way through things.


JJJ plays because he's a solid defender who brings energy and, despite his low shooting percentage, is an outside threat.  

Steve plays because he's the tallest guy on the team, he's a decent rebounder and he works hard to get open under the basket.

Derrick plays because he takes care of the ball, is a senior leader and is the team's best defender.

Juan plays because he brings energy, some semblance of size, hits the boards, can score from time to time and understands Wojo's defense.

I'll ask again: What exactly did Burton do in games that would have earned him more minutes?

Merritt you wouldn't recognize talent if it bit you in the a$$.  I can tell just by your affinity for those who try hard.

And you think JJJ is a solid defender?  Are you kidding?

[MerrittsMustache]

In the real world results matter and life isn't fair.  An untalented hard worker is still an untalented hard worker at the end of the day.  Give me some producers and all their egos any day and I'll make more money with them than a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

If you can't manage the egos you shouldn't be coaching major D1 basketball.  It's that simple.

What in god's holy name are you blathering about? What "producer" was sitting on the bench for MU? How do you know that player was a "producer?" Keep in mind that a "producer" is someone who actually produces, not someone who should produce.

[MerrittsMustache]

Merritt you wouldn't recognize talent if it bit you in the a$$.  I can tell just by your affinity for those who try hard.

And you think JJJ is a solid defender?  Are you kidding?

Yes, I like people who try hard. It's truly one of my biggest faults and something that I'm working hard to overcome. If only I had a greater affinity for talented people who were lazy! Then, and only then, would I be able to recognize that all of those bite marks in my a$$ are actually "talent."

Here's one thing that I can most definitely recognize: You consider yourself to be very intelligent which means that you lack self-awareness.

By the way, you still didn't answer my question.

[NersEllenson]

What in god's holy name are you blathering about? What "producer" was sitting on the bench for MU? How do you know that player was a "producer?" Keep in mind that a "producer" is someone who actually produces, not someone who should produce.

Well let's get real, we've had one guy playing max minutes that has "produced" some of the most abysmal offensive numbers ever seen in high major ball.  I didn't recall seeing Derrick go for 23 (in 22 minutes of playing time) against Xavier in our last game of the season last year...

This is where you and others in the pro-Derrick crowd lose people.  Now this year the D-Stats say he is our worst defender (but now those stats don't matter.)  His assist rate isn't in the Top 500 of college basketball players.  There is a major production problem with a guy who is getting 30 minutes a game.

Sorry.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Huh?  Who cares how the guys play in practice if it isn't translating to games.  And I'm not referring to Cohen or Duane here.  Furthermore, there was no reason for Deonte to have to eat into Duane, Cohen or JJJ's minutes.  He aint a 1/2 - he's a 3/4 combo/.  Perfect for the role Derrick's been playing.

Ners,

For the upteenth time, playing Deonte in Derrick's spot would have exposed us in the post. Even if Burton was the better player, the depth chart needed him to play in the post. There is no argument here. Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer.

[🏀]

Ners, come on.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Because games are what matter.

I haven't seen a nationally televised practice ever.

Matty,

I like you. You bring fair, unbiased opinions based on sound basketball logic. But this is a page straight out of the "Steve Lavin school of coaching."

To dismiss practice and adopt an attitude of "talent plays" is a very short term view of success. Sure you'll get some success right away, but your player development is likely to stagnate. What motivation does a talented player have to listen to his coach if he knows that because he is talented he will always get playing time? Why should he practice his free throw shooting? Why should he work on his fundamentals? Why should he upgrade his defense? Coach is gonna play him no matter what. And the less talented players, what motivation do they have to try if they know coach is going to sit them, even if they work harder than the other players?

Sure you sometimes are blessed with great kids who are both talented and self motivated. They work hard not because they are afraid of the bench, but because they want to get better. At the height of Buzz' tenure, he had several players with these attitudes. These kids are going to be superstars. But as you pointed out yourself, college basketball is full of egos. Many of the talented kids don't want to put in the work and its a coach's job to make them put in the work.

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Playing talent obviously has its place. Its entirely possible that Wojo relies too much on practice and not enough on natural talent. But emphasizing hard work over talent is key to long term success. Sure, some talented players may rage quit because they don't want to earn it practice, those are costs you have to absorb. It will work out better for your program in the long run.

[NersEllenson]

Ners,

For the upteenth time, playing Deonte in Derrick's spot would have exposed us in the post. Even if Burton was the better player, the depth chart needed him to play in the post. There is no argument here. Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer.

Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.  And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

[keefe]

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Tark??

[NersEllenson]

Ners, come on.

Sorry PTM. 

[keefe]

a group of hard working nice guys who couldn't sell p*ssy on a pirate ship.

It's my understanding that pirates at sea, in fact, do not pay feel obligated to actually pay for p<ssy. I think it is considered a perk of the job.

[mattyv1908]

Matty,

I like you. You bring fair, unbiased opinions based on sound basketball logic. But this is a page straight out of the "Steve Lavin school of coaching."

To dismiss practice and adopt an attitude of "talent plays" is a very short term view of success. Sure you'll get some success right away, but your player development is likely to stagnate. What motivation does a talented player have to listen to his coach if he knows that because he is talented he will always get playing time? Why should he practice his free throw shooting? Why should he work on his fundamentals? Why should he upgrade his defense? Coach is gonna play him no matter what. And the less talented players, what motivation do they have to try if they know coach is going to sit them, even if they work harder than the other players?

Sure you sometimes are blessed with great kids who are both talented and self motivated. They work hard not because they are afraid of the bench, but because they want to get better. At the height of Buzz' tenure, he had several players with these attitudes. These kids are going to be superstars. But as you pointed out yourself, college basketball is full of egos. Many of the talented kids don't want to put in the work and its a coach's job to make them put in the work.

Living by "talent first" is the quickest way to lose a team. 95% of college coaches would tell you that. And the 5% who don't are coaches like Lavin who consistently under perform despite top talent.

Playing talent obviously has its place. Its entirely possible that Wojo relies too much on practice and not enough on natural talent. But emphasizing hard work over talent is key to long term success. Sure, some talented players may rage quit because they don't want to earn it practice, those are costs you have to absorb. It will work out better for your program in the long run.

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  

[brandx]

Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.  And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

Now I get it. You think EVERY MU coach has been an idiot. How could Al McGuire sit Bernard Toone on the bench for Neary - a guy who was exponentially worse of a shooter than Derrick? Why did Hank Raymonds refuse to start Artie Green who was already a playground legend in NY?

You have done a great community service for us all - reminding us that we have had a history of fools for coaches. None are up to your standards and abilities.

[mattyv1908]

Now I get it. You think EVERY MU coach has been an idiot. How could Al McGuire sit Bernard Toone on the bench for Neary - a guy who was exponentially worse of a shooter than Derrick? Why did Hank Raymonds refuse to start Artie Green who was already a playground legend in NY?

You have done a great community service for us all - reminding us that we have had a history of fools for coaches. None are up to your standards and abilities.

Thank you Brandx, because this is where I diverge from Ners.

Based on that logic last year our starting line up would've consisted of Gardner, Otule, Jamil, Mayo and Burton.  Can't see that team in reality being any good.

[ATL MU Warrior]

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  

This is absolutely littered with assumptions.

1) How do you know Wojo "fired" Burton?

2) How do you know it wasn't entirely Deonte's decision to leave?

3) How do you know Wojo didn't "fight like hell*" to keep him?

*If by "fight like hell" you mean just go ahead and give him more minutes just because, you know, potential or whatever instead of actually helping the team to win games, then I guess you don't have to answer this.

[brewcity77]

Burton doesn't strike me as a Wojo player.  Wojo is the try hard, harder, hustle guy - he's not going to identify as well with a guy like Burton who has a ton of natural ability and isn't Mr. Scrappy.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

You are right that Burton doesn't seem to be a Wojo type player, but you are 1000% wrong as to the reasons why he isn't. If that were true, why would he recruit someone like Henry Ellenson? Wojo has plenty of experience with guys with a ton MORE natural ability than Burton has. The thing is, he wants guys that both have that natural talent (and let's not forget, Wojo had plenty of talent, he was a McDonald's All-American) and are willing to work hard.

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

1. For every Jimmy Butler there are a 100 Derrick Roses? Uhh...the best NBA drafts usually only have 2-3 guys with that level of talent, and I have a feeling most of the NBA has to work their ass off to keep their jobs.

3. I agree that Wojo will learn from this one.

4. Again, the question becomes whose decision it was. I definitely don't think it was Wojo's decision. I'm also pretty sure Burton didn't come to this decision on his own.

5. You assume it's as simple as Wojo saying "Please stay" and Burton saying "Okay". Pretty sure there are a lot more moving parts than that.

6. No. If Henry isn't putting in the necessary work, he shouldn't be gifted playing time. Now if he gets a stint and dominates, that's different because you don't take out the guy winning games for you. But what we had was a player who wasn't absorbing the coaching and also wasn't playing particularly well on either end of the court. Burton didn't only play because of practice, but because when he did play, he didn't play well.

[GooooMarquette]

I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

[Pakuni]

I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

You already know the answer to that question, don't you?

[GooooMarquette]

You already know the answer to that question, don't you?

Yep.  Nothing.