Have To Tell It Like It is

[Pakuni]

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

[MerrittsMustache]

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  

Yes, Derrick Rose is more talented than Jimmy Butler. He also works his tail off. Michael Beasley has more pure talent than Rose but there's a reason that one of them is an MVP and the other is out of the league at age 25. Teams often give guys like Beasley a chance based on talent alone, but very few of those guys ever make meaningful contributions over the long run.

You think that Coach Cal's players don't work hard? That he just throws together talented high schoolers and they go to Final Fours? You seem to think that people either work hard or have talent. An overwhelming majority of highly successful people, regardless of their line of work, have both ability and a strong work ethic.

No, if Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice, he's not going to get big minutes. Not because it's Wojo being a stubborn, close-minded, egomaniacal coach but because a frosh who doesn't work hard is not going to be very effective in games.

And once again, you still didn't answer my question.

[GooooMarquette]

C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

And unfortunately, Carrawell, Nelson and Diener have never been around gifted athletes much either.

[Eldon]

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this board. Wojo isn't going to relate to a guy with natural ability? Really? So he won't relate to guys like Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Luol Deng, Jay Williams, Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, or Jabari Parker, all of whom he helped put in the NBA?

You are right that Burton doesn't seem to be a Wojo type player, but you are 1000% wrong as to the reasons why he isn't. If that were true, why would he recruit someone like Henry Ellenson? Wojo has plenty of experience with guys with a ton MORE natural ability than Burton has. The thing is, he wants guys that both have that natural talent (and let's not forget, Wojo had plenty of talent, he was a McDonald's All-American) and are willing to work hard.

1. For every Jimmy Butler there are a 100 Derrick Roses? Uhh...the best NBA drafts usually only have 2-3 guys with that level of talent, and I have a feeling most of the NBA has to work their ass off to keep their jobs.

3. I agree that Wojo will learn from this one.

4. Again, the question becomes whose decision it was. I definitely don't think it was Wojo's decision. I'm also pretty sure Burton didn't come to this decision on his own.

5. You assume it's as simple as Wojo saying "Please stay" and Burton saying "Okay". Pretty sure there are a lot more moving parts than that.

6. No. If Henry isn't putting in the necessary work, he shouldn't be gifted playing time. Now if he gets a stint and dominates, that's different because you don't take out the guy winning games for you. But what we had was a player who wasn't absorbing the coaching and also wasn't playing particularly well on either end of the court. Burton didn't only play because of practice, but because when he did play, he didn't play well.

After reading this post along with some of MattyV's comments, this entire debate could simply come down to this trade-off.  There is not some inherent trade-off between talent and effort, but sometimes there is.

On one end of the spectrum you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson ('We talkin bout practice'), etc., who are some of the most gifted bball players ever, but are relatively lazy.  On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy and DeWil, who are very hard working, but not very good (relatively speaking, of course).

A coach may never want to simply give minutes to the lazy talented guys.  Why not?  Because other players may view it as unfair.  It sets the precedent that working hard is not necessary to get minutes.  If the naturally-talented guys are going to get all the minutes, why put in any effort?

However, the flip side is that you may have a player who may not try as hard in practice.  Maybe he does his suicides half-ass or whatever, but he is extremely talented.  If he sees that someone who is an inferior player getting minutes over him, he may think that this is unfair, as his talent is not being rewarded.  The coach may not want to give all the minutes to the hard-working guys because then the talented lazy guys feel resentment and then completely stop putting in effort altogether.

This trade-off could be manifesting itself at MU this season (and perhaps last season, too) as well as on this on this board.  We have Ners who is saying that Wojo needs to let the talented guys run more.  If a walk-on runs really good suicides, but can't hit a free throw/three pointer, the suicides don't matter.  On the other side, we have the DeWil camp saying that Burton's lack of playing time must be evidence that he is not practicing as hard as the others and thus he doesn't deserve more minutes.

A good question would be: Should effort be evaluated at some absolute threshold level (i.e., meet some minimum and get a certain level of minutes), or should it be evaluated at a relative level (i.e., the guy who practices harder at his position will get more minutes).

tl;dr:  Ners and company say delegate minutes with a focus on talent, while others and company say delegate minutes with a focus on effort

Unfortunately this back-and-forth is likely also being clouded and muddled by the human tendency to engage in tribalism.

Just some of my random thoughts reading through all of this

[willie warrior]

Well played

LOL

Yes--well played "one was a joke", and that would be Sultan. a "joke".

[MerrittsMustache]

After reading this post along with some of MattyV's comments, this entire debate could simply come down to this trade-off.  There is not some inherent trade-off between talent and effort, but sometimes there is.

On one end of the spectrum you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson ('We talkin bout practice'), etc., who are some of the most gifted bball players ever, but are relatively lazy.  On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy and DeWil, who are very hard working, but not very good (relatively speaking, of course).

A coach may never want to simply give minutes to the lazy talented guys.  Why not?  Because other players may view it as unfair.  It sets the precedent that working hard is not necessary to get minutes.  If the naturally-talented guys are going to get all the minutes, why put in any effort?

However, the flip side is that you may have a player who may not try as hard in practice.  Maybe he does his suicides half-ass or whatever, but he is extremely talented.  If he sees that someone who is an inferior player getting minutes over him, he may think that this is unfair, as his talent is not being rewarded.  The coach may not want to give all the minutes to the hard-working guys because then the talented lazy guys feel resentment and then completely stop putting in effort altogether.

This trade-off could be manifesting itself at MU this season (and perhaps last season, too) as well as on this on this board.  We have Ners who is saying that Wojo needs to let the talented guys run more.  If a walk-on runs really good suicides, but can't hit a free throw/three pointer, the suicides don't matter.  On the other side, we have the DeWil camp saying that Burton's lack of playing time must be evidence that he is not practicing as hard as the others and thus he doesn't deserve more minutes.

A good question would be: Should effort be evaluated at some absolute threshold level (i.e., meet some minimum and get a certain level of minutes), or should it be evaluated at a relative level (i.e., the guy who practices harder at his position will get more minutes).

tl;dr:  Ners and company say delegate minutes with a focus on talent, while others and company say delegate minutes with a focus on effort

Unfortunately this back-and-forth is likely also being clouded and muddled by the human tendency to engage in tribalism.

Just some of my random thoughts reading through all of this

In an ideal world, your best players are your hardest workers. Jordan, Peyton Manning, LeBron, Kobe, Tom Brady, etc. Those guys have tremendous talent and they don't waste a drop of it. When you're a no-name, end-of-the-bench guy and you see the All-American pushing himself in practice, being the first in the gym and the last to leave, it makes an impression. When the best players coast in practice and only show up for games, the team's ceiling is much lower.

In addition, when the best players coast in practice, coaches get on their case relentlessly because they understand that those are the guys who are going to elevate the team's play. If a benchwarmer coasts in practice, the coach may simply get rid of him. Even Coach Bobby Finstock knew that.

As a general aside, I have not personally said that Deonte didn't work hard in practice and don't mean to give off that impression. I don't know if he's a hard-worker or a coaster. I just think that he looked lost on the court and was unwilling/unable to contribute in other facets of the game besides scoring.

[Lighthouse 84]

While I haven't been to or seen any tape of practices, I think it's at least a fair guess that Deonte is outworked in practice by Juan, JjJ, Derrick, Du, Carlino, Teve, Chief, Wally and Luke.  But at times, he shows unbelievable potential.  I say this based on the playing time Deonte gets in a game and by watching him in games.  He obviously has a very high ceiling and does some spectacular things on the court but then looks lost and doesn't go ball out on the court.  So it makes me think that his attitude is much like a lot of kids these days, not just with basketball, but with life.  Based on his talent alone, he feels he deserves more.  Sure, others are working harder, but he's better so he should play!  It's pure laziness coupled with an entitlement attitude.  Far too many kids have that attitude and that's what I see with Deonte.

Obviously, my analysis may be off base but it's based on the eye test.  And we all know from Ners that the eye test is what matters.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

I think he was the only guy on the team that has dunked so far this year.

[tower912]

The hard working Tom Brady was held down by Lloyd Carr who preferred the on-the-surface more talented Drew Henson.   Guess Lloyd should have gone with the gamer.     But this goes to the heart of Eldon's argument.   There is always a tension between the less talented but hardworking team guy and the more talented, less hardworking guy.      In the end, it boils down to the fact that two players the former coach recruited didn't mesh with the new coach and are now looking for opportunities elsewhere.  

[Sir Lawrence]

I think he was the only guy on the team that has dunked so far this year.

And didn't he have a colossal fail on a dunk attempt during the first game?  Where the ball sailed almost to the scoreboard?

[GooooMarquette]

And we all know from Ners that the eye test is what matters.

Had to chuckle at this.  Ners has cited Derrick's shooting stats more often than Sinatra has sung New York New York.  Hard to believe he has time to actually watch a game.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Maybe Deonte is LOST period with what is still a very recent and personal loss.  At that point it's critical of both the coaching staff and player to communicate effectively in all aspects not just basketball.  It's a delicate situation that I think 2-3 years of head coaching experience probably yields a different result for Wojo and Deonte.

I'm sorry too and thanks for deescalating a misunderstanding.

It's a very delicate situation.

As I posted earlier, I would be in favor of Deonte taking this semester off and then coming back to MU in the summer/fall, but I don't think that is going to happen.

Bottom line for me (and then I'll shut up):

I don't blame Deonte 1 bit for being unfocused right now.
BUT
I also don't blame the coach for not playing him meaningful minutes when he is lost on the court. 

I have a hard time blaming this transfer on Wojo's rotation. 

If Deonte and his family think a fresh start is best, then I wish him luck. He seems like a great kid.

[NavinRJohnson]

Had to chuckle at this.  Ners has cited Derrick's shooting stats more often than Sinatra has sung New York New York.  Hard to believe he has time to actually watch a game.

He only watches half the court, so that frees up some time.

[NersEllenson]

I still haven't seen anyone answer the simple question:  what has Deonte done in games this season that warranted more minutes than he was getting?  And having "potential" or "freakish athletic ability" don't count as something that he has done in games.

Has Deonte struggled this year?  Yes.  Have we seen in recent history MU players struggle and not do ANYTHING in games (in 35+ minutes of playing time) and continue to get minutes (because they apparently are practicing well?)

Deonte was considered to be a breakout player this season.  Coming off All Big East Freshman selection in just 12 minutes of play.  Kevin O'Neill raved about him - as did just about every other color commentator last year.  

Deonte had a history of production as a freshman, and that alone should have earned him more time.

C'mon Brew, other than Wojo's nearly 20 years at Duke as a coach and player, and his many years working with USA Basketball, the guy's got no experience dealing with naturally gifted athletes like Deonte.

Sure, he has experience working with them - in an ASSISTANT COACH role.  He didn't control/dictate any of those guys playing time.  EVER.  And I guarantee you if Wojo were controlling their playing time, and played some scrubs in front to those naturally gifted guys - they would have bolted too..

Wojo just relegated our most talented offensive player to the bench for 24 minutes per game.  And the reason some here give is because Deonte "doesn't have his hands up on D/is lost on D."  I swear, some of you guys are looking for spastic effort on defense - when you don't have to play as a complete spaz to be an effective defender.

Help me understand those of you who are so down on Deonte's D - How does a guy with such terrible D-skills, who is so lost on D have the 5th highest steal percentage out of all college basketball players last year?  This season Deonte ranks 41st in the country.  Meanwhile, Derrick Wilson, your all world defender steals the ball at a 1/3rd of the rate Burton does this season and is not ranked in the Top 500 college players with regard to steal percentage.

I know...I know...I'll get the same old tired arguments of he plays good position defense.  Just like the same old tired arguments about him "getting us into our offense."  When in reality - the production is almost NEVER there.  You get an outlier of a game about 1 every 8 games.  The other 7 are just abysmal.

PRODUCTION ON THE COURT UNDER THE LIGHTS MATTERS.  Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

[NavinRJohnson]

Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

So, a coach should base his opinion and playing time allocation of a player he did not recruit, on stats and minutes played in games he's seen only on film, for a different coach, in a different system and style, instead of what he actually experiences on his own in workouts, practices, and games?  Good plan.

[79Warrior]

So, a coach should base his opinion and playing time allocation of a player he did not recruit, on stats and minutes played in games he's seen only on film, for a different coach, in a different system and style, instead of what he actually experiences on his own in workouts, practices, and games?  Good plan.

Agree.  Now you understand the argument and why it is futile to respond to the dude.

[mu-rara]

In the real world

2 employees

1 with infinite talent
1 with not so much, but works harder

The employee with not so much will outperform the more talented every time.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Has Deonte struggled this year?  Yes.  

PRODUCTION ON THE COURT UNDER THE LIGHTS MATTERS.  

Exactly. That's why his minutes have been limited.

If Deonte started lighting it up in the second half of the year, then his minutes would have increased.

[NavinRJohnson]

Agree.  Now you understand the argument and why it is futile to respond to the dude.

I know, and I've avoided it for months, but some comments are so stupid, I allowed myself to get sucked back in. I will fix that immediately.

[NersEllenson]

In the real world

2 employees

1 with infinite talent
1 with not so much, but works harder

The employee with not so much will outperform the more talented every time.

In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

[NersEllenson]

I know, and I've avoided it for months, but some comments are so stupid, I allowed myself to get sucked back in. I will fix that immediately.

Trust me.  I know the feeling.

[GGGG]

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

That is absolutely not true.  Otherwise players like Eddie Curry would be in the Hall of Fame.  

[Pakuni]

In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

This clearly explains why Jimmy Butler (#30 pick of 2011 NBA Draft)  is on the verge of an all-star season while a naturally talented guy like Derrick Williams (#2 pick of the 2011 NBA Draft) is playing less than 12 minutes per game for a middling team.
EVERY TIME!

[Freeport Warrior]

Deonte had a history of production as a freshman, and that alone should have earned him more time.

Sure, he has experience working with them - in an ASSISTANT COACH role.  He didn't control/dictate any of those guys playing time.  EVER.  And I guarantee you if Wojo were controlling their playing time, and played some scrubs in front to those naturally gifted guys - they would have bolted too..

Burton showed he can produce as a freshman and that alone should have been enough to get him 20-25 minutes on this thin team thus far.

Goodbye Ners. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for some time, but you literally have no idea what you are talking about. Pretty much, EVER. You know nothing about earning playing time on this team or the criterion it should be/is judged by. Additionally, you also have no idea how Wojo influenced playing time as an assistant coach. You have turned into white noise because of brain-dead "analysis" like this. I have to hit eject and escape from the Ners Vortex. My first ignore/hide.

[GGGG]

Wojo just relegated our most talented offensive player to the bench for 24 minutes per game.

No, Duane Wilson has been getting plenty of playing time.