Have To Tell It Like It is

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Points 3,4 and 5 are why I started this thread, and are more eloquently written.  

I'm curious TW, what did Wojo not do that you think he should have done. I don't have details but I imagine that Wojo tried just about everything he could to keep Burton in the fold and help him in this difficult time in his life.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

Couple of things:

#1 Due to limited options at #4 &5, I don't think Wojo wanted to slide Burton into the 3 spot (yet).

#2 JJJ avg 20mpg, and Deonte avg. 16mpg. If it was reversed, do we think that would have kept Burton at MU? How many minutes per game would have kept Deonte?

[NersEllenson]

I love Burton's potential, but he has been bad. I love Burton as a kid, think he is a fantastic representative of Marquette, but on the court, he has been bad. And not just on defense. I have a complete inability of understanding why we would take minutes from Steve and Jajuan to give them to someone who really hasn't been any more effective than either of those guys. I wanted this kid to be fantastic, I expected him to be a leader, a scorer, and to grow into an all-conference and possibly an All-American player. But he hasn't been any of that. And giving more minutes to him when he is already struggling to produce in the minutes he is getting isn't likely to fix that.

If this side by side comparison makes Deonte look bad, what say you with regard to Derrick?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=2-deonte-burton

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

I think Juan has done just about everything better than Burton this season. Better rebounder, much better defender (top 100 in the country by according to Bama's stats), slightly better shooter, and much better distributor.

Steve has struggled but he is tall. Playing him is a necessary evil. And one thing that both Steve and Juan have done very well is defending without fouling. Critical when you have so few post players and impressive when they are this undersized.

JjJ, Burton has been comparable to. I would argue that Burton has been better than JjJ. My issue is that JjJ is a guard and on this team we needed Burton almost exclusively as a forward. You can't play 3/4 of your post players at the same time, especially with how foul prone Deonte is. Late in the game if you aren't in foul trouble, sure, take JjJ's minutes, but not in the first 30 minutes.

[NersEllenson]

I can tell you that any coach worth his salt would hit you over the head for this strategy. You only have four players who can play the post? You start two, only play two at a time, then if the game calls for it in the second half (and you aren't in foul trouble), you can start playing three of them at the same.

Look, you don't go into a game and say - Gee, what if we get in foul trouble.  You play your best players at their respective positions and let the game dictate to you what substitutions need to be made.

Deonte is a FAR better option at the 3, than Derrick.  Period.  End of story.  Just as are Carlino and Duane at the 1 and 2.

Juan gets in trouble playing alongside Steve and Deonte?  Bring Derrick in to fill his slot in the zone.  Steve gets in trouble - slide Juan to the center position, bring in Derrick to fill Juan's slot.  Dawson could also have given time at that forward position in the zone.

The fact some of you are trying to argue that Derrick deserves/deserved more playing time at that forward position than Deonte is, without a doubt, the absolute dumbest thing I've ever read here.  And there have been some really dumb things written when it comes to the topic of Derrick and all of the ridiculous rationalizations people have tried to make to support him getting 30+ minutes with abysmal production.

[mattyv1908]

I think Juan has done just about everything better than Burton this season. Better rebounder, much better defender (top 100 in the country by according to Bama's stats), slightly better shooter, and much better distributor.

Steve has struggled but he is tall. Playing him is a necessary evil. And one thing that both Steve and Juan have done very well is defending without fouling. Critical when you have so few post players and impressive when they are this undersized.

JjJ, Burton has been comparable to. I would argue that Burton has been better than JjJ. My issue is that JjJ is a guard and on this team we needed Burton almost exclusively as a forward. You can't play 3/4 of your post players at the same time, especially with how foul prone Deonte is. Late in the game if you aren't in foul trouble, sure, take JjJ's minutes, but not in the first 30 minutes.

TAMU

We haven't been playing three forwards.  Prior to Fischer our team has consisted of only one post player (Steve) and a bunch of guards and wings.  I guess what I'm saying is EVERYBODY has played out of position to a certain extent.

We're essentially playing like Nova last year with four guards and a forward just without the good shooting, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim.

[humanlung]

I have not read pages 9 through 16 but has anyone stopped to think that Burton is transferring because he might need a simple change of scenery for personal reasons?

Having lost a parent early in life, I can attest it isn't easy to be around all the places where memories were made. Perhaps he just wants to get out of Milwaukee, at least in part, so he isn't reminded of his loss every day.  Absent his loss, maybe he's able to fight through the issues about PT, the coaching change, etc... but add in the loss of his mom and it's just a little too much for the young man.  After all he is still a kid.

[connie]

Jeez, a guy goes on vacation, comes back to find two players are leaving the team mid season, and the only thing this board can do is re-live the Derrick discussion (without emphasizing enough the fact that now both WOJO and the hillbilly savant have found him deserving of more playing time than the dearly departed, combined).  Sad to see both leave. Both seemed like quality kids, and I hope they fit in better somewhere else.  As for us, ...

[brewcity77]

If this side by side comparison makes Deonte look bad, what say you with regard to Derrick?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=derrick-wilson&p1=2-deonte-burton

I have no need to look at that because they are not competing for minutes. How many times do we have to go over this?

Okay...it's simple. We are basically playing the following positions:

PG1 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
PG2 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
WG1 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
WG2 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
Post (Taylor, Juan)

Deonte is competing for minutes with Duane and Carlino, maybe, but is not competing for minutes with Derrick. You've noted that Derrick has slid inside on defense, and while that is true, it is a combination of having only 2 perimeter positions and Derrick's physical strength making him the best suited of those players to go down low. Even still, whenever he is on the court he is the primary ball-handler, so he still is pretty much always in one of the PG spots, not a WG spot competing for minutes with Deonte.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have not read pages 9 through 16 but has anyone stopped to think that Burton is transferring because he might need a simple change of scenery for personal reasons?

Having lost a parent early in life, I can attest it isn't easy to be around all the places where memories were made. Perhaps he just wants to get out of Milwaukee, at least in part, so he isn't reminded of his loss every day.  Absent his loss, maybe he's able to fight through the issues about PT, the coaching change, etc... but add in the loss of his mom and it's just a little too much for the young man.  After all he is still a kid.

Everybody but 1 person has stopped to consider that.

[Pakuni]

Jeez, a guy goes on vacation, comes back to find two players are leaving the team mid season, and the only thing this board can do is re-live the Derrick discussion (without emphasizing enough the fact that now both WOJO and the hillbilly savant have found him deserving of more playing time than the dearly departed, combined).  Sad to see both leave. Both seemed like quality kids, and I hope they fit in better somewhere else.  As for us, ...

The moral of the story is you should never go on vacation.

[NersEllenson]

I have no need to look at that because they are not competing for minutes. How many times do we have to go over this?

Okay...it's simple. We are basically playing the following positions:

PG1 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
PG2 (Derrick, Carlino, Duane)
WG1 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
WG2 (Deonte, Sandy, Juan, Duane, Carlino, Jajuan)
Post (Taylor, Juan)

Deonte is competing for minutes with Duane and Carlino, maybe, but is not competing for minutes with Derrick. You've noted that Derrick has slid inside on defense, and while that is true, it is a combination of having only 2 perimeter positions and Derrick's physical strength making him the best suited of those players to go down low. Even still, whenever he is on the court he is the primary ball-handler, so he still is pretty much always in one of the PG spots, not a WG spot competing for minutes with Deonte.

I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable. 

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

[Freeport Warrior]

We need to petition the moderator to set up a site for Ners like he did for politics. Then he can just argue with himself and we can have our board back.

I thought nothing could be worse than Chico's carpet-bombing threads with his posts to prove his intellectual superiority, but Ners may even be worse.

[GGGG]

The problem with entering that vortex is that you never are able to return.

[Dawson Rental]

I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable.  

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

As has been pointed out previously, two individuals making 2 million plus to coach Division I NCAA basketball at Marquette and VPI have found it best to put Derrick Wilson on the floor to give them the best chance to continue in their highly competitive positions.  Therefore, IMHO, it is perhaps you who may be exaggerating reasons for Derrick to sit.  Your high school basketball and yogurt experience aside, I'm going to stick with the opinions of the guys who do this sort of a thing for a living.  Derrick is no savior, he just happens to be one of the five best options this team has had over last season and this season.  Unless, both Buzz and now Wojo have - for apparently vastly differing reasons - decided to tank their team's season.  Personally, I don't believe that that is so.  While that might work in the yogurt biz, it just doesn't make any sense for anyone trying to hold onto jobs that extremely difficult to get and hold onto.  Just ask Ben Howland about getting and holding one of those jobs.

[brewcity77]

I simply disagree.  Deonte doesn't, nor should he be competing with Duane and Carlino for time?  Those guys are both clearly guards and locks to be in the starting lineup. (Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player) Carlino and Duane play with the ball plenty in their hands, and are both capable of being a PG, and both function in that role even with Derrick on the court - they are all interchangeable. 

I know you and the others in the Derrick fan club will go to the ends of this green earth to try to justify we he is needed to be on the floor, but let's not exaggerate the reasons.

I'm pretty sure there is no Derrick fan club, there are simply those that acknowledge he is (for better or worse) one of the guys that gives us the best chance to win and those that ardently refuse to accept it. As two different coaches, both professionals making more money than likely any posters on this board, and their coaching staffs, have all determined the former to be the truth, and the people not accepting that have absolutely zero control over the decisions made by those paid professionals, I guess it's really not worth debating.

That said, I expect you to keep pissing and moaning about the same damn thing for the rest of the season, probably well into next season, and when anyone transfers from Marquette for the next decade, I expect you will try to pin it on the ghost of Derrick Wilson. What did he do, sleep with your wife?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

We haven't been playing three forwards.  Prior to Fischer our team has consisted of only one post player (Steve) and a bunch of guards and wings.  I guess what I'm saying is EVERYBODY has played out of position to a certain extent.

We're essentially playing like Nova last year with four guards and a forward just without the good shooting, athleticism and ability to finish at the rim.

I recognize that everyone is playing out of position. But you can't allow yourself to get into a situation where JjJ is playing the four. Wojo prevented that by playing Deonte, Sandy, Steve,and Juan exclusively at the 4/5 position.

[brandx]

I recognize that everyone is playing out of position. But you can't allow yourself to get into a situation where JjJ is playing the four. Wojo prevented that by playing Deonte, Sandy, Steve,and Juan exclusively at the 4/5 position.

Give it up TAMU - Ners doesn't GET IT and never will.


I used to read the Scout board (free version, but never posted) and there is one poster there that does the same as Ners. Needless to say I haven't read that board in a long time.

Maybe we need a poll about ALL OF US leaving if Ners keeps posting about Derrick.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Deonte is a FAR better option at the 3, than Derrick.  Period.  End of story.  Just as are Carlino and Duane at the 1 and 2.
The fact some of you are trying to argue that Derrick deserves/deserved more playing time at that forward position than Deonte is, without a doubt, the absolute dumbest thing I've ever read here.  And there have been some really dumb things written when it comes to the topic of Derrick and all of the ridiculous rationalizations people have tried to make to support him getting 30+ minutes with abysmal production.

When did I say that Deonte wasn't a better option than Derrick at the three?

What I said was Deonte was played exclusively at the four because of his size. You have to protect your post. If you put Deonte, Juan, and Steve out there for long stretches at the same time, you run a huge risk of losing your posts to foul trouble and fatigue. Did you really want to see what would happen if we had to put JjJ in at the four? We were terrible enough at rebounding as it was.

Because of our team's makeup, a lot of people had to play out of position. It was a necessary evil. No one was more negatively impacted by that than Deonte. But there was nothing to be done. We needed Burton's size in the post.

I don't agree with Brew. I think Derrick was acting as three due to his placement in the defense. But if you recognize that Derrick was the three than you also have to recognize that Deonte was the four.

Any coach would have used the same strategy as Wojo, for the start of the game. Now once you get into the 2nd half, you don't have to worry as much about foul trouble (assuming you didn't foul too much in the 1st). Then you can afford to run with Deonte, Juan, and Steve out there. Which guess what? Wojo did! For about 9 minutes a game we saw Sandy or Deonte at the three. But always in the second half.

Derrick has nothing to do with Deonte's minutes or his transfer. But you are so drunk on haterade for Derrick that you must make EVERYTHING his fault.

Look, you don't go into a game and say - Gee, what if we get in foul trouble.  You play your best players at their respective positions and let the game dictate to you what substitutions need to be made.

Juan gets in trouble playing alongside Steve and Deonte?  Bring Derrick in to fill his slot in the zone.  Steve gets in trouble - slide Juan to the center position, bring in Derrick to fill Juan's slot.  Dawson could also have given time at that forward position in the zone.

Yes you do! Of course you do! Every coach in America thinks about that and plans for a strategy in case it happens! The difference is most coaches have the luxury of having at least one legitimate center and several players with enough size to fill in if that center gets in foul trouble. We did not! We had zero centers, one true forward, and three wings with enough size to fill in when necessary. You have to be very strategic with your rotations. Because if Deonte and Juan (our two most foul prone players) pick up two fouls before the first media timeout, we are screwed. Suddenly Sandy and Steve have to play the whole first half. Neither has the stamina to do that effectively and it increases their risk for fouls. If your not careful, JjJ ends up playing the 4 with Sandy at the 5 and we're getting blown out by 30.

[brewcity77]

I don't agree with Brew. I think Derrick was acting as three due to his placement in the defense. But if you recognize that Derrick was the three than you also have to recognize that Deonte was the four.

Derrick played 1-3 on defense, but was strictly a PG on offense (usually PG1).

[GooooMarquette]

Everybody but 1 person has stopped to consider that.

Well played.  And notice that nobody had to ask who that one person is....

[MU82]

Deonte is not a clear cut guard but a perfect 3/4 hybrid player

On paper this might be true, and I wish like heck it had been true in games because he'd be playing 30 mpg for the Warriors if it were. Unfortunately, Deonte was extremely imperfect.

Most "gave him a pass" because of his personal situation, but ...

He was nothing special on offense, he somehow managed to be the worst rebounder on the team, he had 5 times as many TOs as assists, he couldn't guard anybody in m-t-m, he didn't get how to play our zone (which is amazing because I coach 7th grade girls who get the 2-3) and he too often seemed to be drifting.

One could argue quite successfully that Deonte hadn't even earned the minutes he was getting from Wojo.

Maybe all he needs is some time off and a change of scenery. I hope he has a successful career and a great life.

[GooooMarquette]

The problem with entering that vortex is that you never are able to return.

The good news is that you never have to go in in the first place.  Ners could just argue with himself.  It'd probably take a year or so for him to realize nobody else is there....

[jesmu84]

Again, Wojo preferred this season (so far) to play a 3 guard lineup, for like 95% of the minutes available. Deonte is not a guard. So one of Duane, Carlino, Derrick has to play low on the zone. Derrick is the preferred choice out of those 3. Seems pretty straight-forward. There was no cross-over between Deonte's minutes and Derrick's minutes BECAUSE Wojo wanted 3 guards on the floor. If Derrick wasn't on it, Duane, Carlino, JJJ or Dawson would have gotten his minutes. So, if you want to criticize Wojo's decision to play 3 guards and how that effected Deonte's minutes, go right ahead - that's a more valid argument. However, it was an argument no one was making at all this semester so far.

Deonte was not as productive this year, for whatever reason. If Deonte had been as productive, or more productive, compared to last year, I'm sure he would have seen more minutes.

Having said that, I wish Deonte were still here.

Having sad that, there are a lot of assumptions being made as to how much effort Wojo put into trying to keep Deonte here. Does anyone actually know? I highly doubt it.

[NersEllenson]

It's boiled down to this: Well, two coaches who get paid millions of dollars seem to think Derrick being on the floor 30 minutes per game gives us the best chance to win.  And the whole premise of course that NEVER, EVER could a head coach have it wrong about a player.  Just simply can't happen, because they get paid millions of dollars.

1)  Last year's coach is gone at an outpost at Va Tech - and his team finished perhaps the most disappointing 17-15 team in school history.  This board collectively thought that team would go to the NCAA and make some noise.  It didn't even make the NIT.  So, what happened?  Buzz turned in a crappy coaching performance.

2)  This year's coach just lost our All Big East Freshman, Top 50 recruit.  We've lost to Nebraska-Omaha.  Snuck by NJIT.  We've glorified our "close losses" to OSU, MSU, and WI.  Prior to Deonte's defection, Ken Pom had us going 2-16 in the Big East based on how we played through 8 games.

So, once again, if Wojo, like Buzz rides Derrick 30 minutes, we won't win more than 5 conference games this year.  What won't be a coincidence is that our 2 worst years since entering the Big East coincided with Derrick Wilson being GIVEN (not earning) 30+ minutes per game.  This team had 7, Top 100 players on its roster at the start of the year.  There is talent there.  Enough talent that it should finish at least in the top half of The Big East if it is coached well.