Have To Tell It Like It is

[Lennys Tap]

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

[brandx]

My completely unscientific observation is that most of Burton's fouls occurred in the immediate aftermath of one of his patented completely bone-headed offensive turnovers.

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Marquette faithful wince at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Burton's absolute lack of discipline

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Ners winces at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Derrick's absolute lack of discipline

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Ners winces at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Derrick's absolute lack of SHOOTING

Fixed it. It's all about shooting, bro.

[Loose Cannon]

Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

   That's Real Defence

[rocky_warrior]

Yep. First MU player ever to nail multiple players to the bench and cause multiple transfers. Elite game changer, indeed!

Not just MU, my sources say every ncaa transfer is due to Derrick this year.

[Loose Cannon]

Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff? 

What elements do we analyze to determine this??

[Abode4life]

Not just MU, my sources say every ncaa transfer is due to Derrick this year.

This year, and the last two years....

[NersEllenson]

What elements do we analyze to determine this??

If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

[Tums Festival]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it seems like there are a vocal few that have unrealistic expectations for this season and are acting hurt every time things don't go according to their plan for how this season should go. This season always was going to be a work in progress for the players and the coaches and to expect anything different has caused some people to turn against the team and make wild accusations against Wojo. There's nothing wrong with short-term struggle providing it leads to long-term success. We as fans were lucky that the transition from Crean to Brent went as well as it did. If anything, this year could be shedding a little light on why last year went the way it did.

[mu03eng]

If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

I'm calling you out on this......almost to a person we've all said that line-up would be perfect.  I know I have said 72 times in other threads that with Luke, Burton becomes one of the best players if not the best player on the team.  You can't hold a line-up that can't happen against Wojo.  No one is arguing when Luke plays that Derrick should have the same number of minutes, LITERALLY NO ONE.

The ONLY line-up with the roster pre-Luke that works without Derrick and with Burton is
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

The problem with that line up is that Burton's weakness in the zone exacerbates Teve's weakness and the lack of a rim protector.  Additionally, you are playing 3 out of the four guys that can play the 4 and the 5.  Was Wojo suppose to have one sub for 3 positions?  You certainly can't play JjJ and Burton together.  And Cohen has only been good in the zone when he is up top not on the wing.

[brewcity77]

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

Maybe it would have been. We'll never know because Deonte decided to leave. Luke's presence might have helped Deonte on offense. All the more reason this is so disappointing.

[MerrittsMustache]

If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

This lineup would have been very effective staying with the zone D:
Duane
Carlino
Deonte
Juan
Luke

But hey, Ken Pom, before Burton's transfer had us going 1-17 in the Big East based on how we've played thus far. So, perhaps what Wojo was doing wasn't really all that effective.  He started this season with 7, Top 100 players...that should be enough to win some games against bottom feeder ACC and SEC teams as we did in Orlando.

Why did two different coaching regimes give Burton limited minutes while playing Derrick 30 minutes a game?

What makes you think that you know better than both Buzz, Wojo and their entire staffs?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If some don't realize Deonte could be playing a good chunk of Derrick's minutes particularly now that we are playing zone, and Derrick plays a forward spot on the Zone D - don't know what to tell people.

My advice is to quit trying then.

[willie warrior]

Ners broke his latest Derrick Moratorium - a day after he made it.

About as long as yours lasted, Sunshine. Practice what you preach.

[ATL MU Warrior]

You can absolutely run with a 2 guard lineup of Duane and Carlino (Derrick backs both of them up), put Deonte on the floor with Juan and Steve.  Or Luke and Juan when Luke returns.  Burton is the furthest thing from a liability on the offensive end - he'd make the game easier for the other guys due to him being an aggressive, attacking, and generally effective offensive player.

If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

[NersEllenson]

I'm calling you out on this......almost to a person we've all said that line-up would be perfect.  I know I have said 72 times in other threads that with Luke, Burton becomes one of the best players if not the best player on the team.  You can't hold a line-up that can't happen against Wojo.  No one is arguing when Luke plays that Derrick should have the same number of minutes, LITERALLY NO ONE.

The ONLY line-up with the roster pre-Luke that works without Derrick and with Burton is
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

The problem with that line up is that Burton's weakness in the zone exacerbates Teve's weakness and the lack of a rim protector.  Additionally, you are playing 3 out of the four guys that can play the 4 and the 5.  Was Wojo suppose to have one sub for 3 positions?  You certainly can't play JjJ and Burton together.  And Cohen has only been good in the zone when he is up top not on the wing.

As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

[ATL MU Warrior]

As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

This is really too much.

Now Wojo is a terrible coach.  Ok Ners.  Got it.

Delusional arrogance I believe was a term used in the last several days in regards to you.  Fits like a glove.

[mu03eng]

As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

I don't have KenPom access, but the projected 1-17 in Big East was after Nebraska Omaha, not the current projection...yes?  What is the current projection?

[NersEllenson]

If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

On a team as offensively challenged as this current MU team - I'd much rather have Deonte taking bad/forced shots than Derrick challenging defenders going to the rim.  Sorry.  Derrick doesn't even rank i the Top 500 players for Assist Rate...so let's not act as if he's creating all these assists.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

As I pointed out - our performance thus far with the plan Wojo chose to go with, projects us out to 1-17 in the Big East.  It wasn't a winning formula.  Tenn and Ga Tech are bottom feeders in their conferences - nice school names, but neither is expected to be much of a team this year.

Obviously, it turned Deonte off enough to transfer from the program - and Deonte was always a guy who wanted to be in MKE, be an example for MKE kids, and affirmed his commitment to the University and program, even before a new head coach was named.  Clearly, he was very disenchanted with what transpired.  As Western posted, Deonte expected a big role on the team, and that didn't materialize - at all.  But, we can say that's on Deonte for not "earning" the playing time - yet his ceiling is so much higher than who was playing the forward position in that zone - no doubt he got to the point of WTF.

If Deonte doesn't know why he's not playing, then he's going to struggle to find PT no matter where he goes.

[NersEllenson]

I don't have KenPom access, but the projected 1-17 in Big East was after Nebraska Omaha, not the current projection...yes?  What is the current projection?

Current projection improved to 2-16.  We benefitted from Providence losing to Brown and Boston College the last two games - so that has become a projected win now.

[mu03eng]

Current projection improved to 2-16.  We benefitted from Providence losing to Brown and Boston College the last two games - so that has become a projected win now.

Do you think that's what our record will be at the end of the season in conference?

[mattyv1908]

If all you think about is his ability to score, then yes. 

If you consider turnovers, bad shots, forced shots, the only thing he does is take shots, lack of passing, lack of assists, lack of rebounding, etc. etc., then no.

Also, how does a guy that all he does is shoot make anybody any better on the offensive end?

Technically speaking, is a Burton turnover really that different than the majority of shots thrown up there from JJJ, Juan, Steve, and Derrick this year which result in a defensive rebound?

I think Ners is simply pointing out that when half of the team looks as if their main goal is to dent rims and break backboards with the bricks they're shooting that even a forced Burton possession has about the same chance of being successful.

These guys make Chris Otule look like he had great touch.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Technically speaking, is a Burton turnover really that different than the majority of shots thrown up there from JJJ, Juan, Steve, and Derrick this year which result in a defensive rebound?

I think Ners is simply pointing out that when half of the team looks as if their main goal is to dent rims and break backboards with the bricks they're shooting that even a forced Burton possession has about the same chance of being successful.

These guys make Chris Otule look like he had great touch.

Think about what you just wrote.

You have half the team listed as rim-denting bricklayers.  And STILL Deonte was getting the minutes he was getting.  What does that tell you about what the coaches thought of his overall ability to contribute to the team?  Are the coaches just wrong?

Additionally, if what you wrote is true, then do you and/or Ners really expect one player to make ANY difference at all on a team that is that poor? 

[NersEllenson]

Do you think that's what our record will be at the end of the season in conference?

I don't think it will be that bad, no.  Nor should it be - even with the loss of Burton.  The point was, with what we had and the lineups that were chosen - it wasn't boding well for the remainder of the season. I'd have preferred to see both Burton and Dawson get a lot more run than they were given.  But, doesn't matter now.  Wojo now has a roster of guys who have bought into what he's selling.  As he said, the team seems to have galvanized.  We'll see.