Have To Tell It Like It is

[Silkk the Shaka]

You care too much about 19 year olds that appear on your television set who dribble an orange ball, and put through a structure with a circular hoop attached to it that is 10 feet in the air.

...says the guy with 2500 posts on a board devoted to MU hoops?

[brewcity77]

Again, I'll go back to the point where Deonte has sacrificed a lot (eligibility wise) with this decision when it might have been the case that he could have blossomed following Luke's eligibility.  We may never know his exact reasoning and I'm not his dad.  I hope he made the right choice.  Because I know he's a great kid.  

I agree 100% with all of this. I fear he has too many off-campus voices in his ear telling him he needs to be a star now, and not emphasizing the work involved in becoming that type of player, no matter how talented he may be.

[drewm88]

Yes.....I WOULD.

Especially considering Deonte's mothers death and the fact that he is a local product from Milwaukee. He deserved more time...and consideration.

You mean to tell me with all of those former big time college players like Chris Carrawell and others no one could get to him?

This to me says more about that staff and less about Deonte right now if he was encouraged to move on...

ABSOLUTELY.

The part in bold is important because many posts here seem to be operating from the assumption that Deonte's transfer was encouraged or was because of his limited playing time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything that lists that as the reason. If it isn't, doesn't that make this whole conversation moot?

[mu-rara]

I never said that. I said he is inexperienced, we are going to go through growing pains as a result of not only the players inexperience but also his. Since he is older and more experience my disappointment lies with him and not the players.

Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

[mu03eng]

You're being purposely obtuse. Read the fine print directly below those lineups. "Position designation is estimated by an algorithm and may not reflect reality." I watch the games, KenPom's positions algorithm does not.

KenPom algorithm doesn't take into account defensive positioning in a zone, so in a sense you are both right.  Derrick is playing the 1 or 2 in the offense with Burton at the 4.  On defense Derrick and Burton were both playing wings so essentially 3/4 on defensively.  But that would also apply to JjJ and Burton since JjJ played a wing in the zone mostly.

So defensively they were replacements for each other but not offensively.  I'd also argue, if Burton could play the wing on the zone better, Derrick would have played less because that's the only way he beats out Burton.


My biggest disappointment is that Fischer's availability would have done wonders for Burton.  Derrick's minutes would have gone down and Burton's up and all would be right with the world.  Guess we'll never know.

[mu-rara]

I didn't ask you to reveal sources.  So you are saying that you have talked to someone with knowledge of the situation who believes that one, or both, of the transfers were not handled appropriately?

C'mon Sultan.....Ners is one of the most credible posters EVER.

[Lighthouse 84]

Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

Exactly.  Wojo's a smart guy. Even if he was only half paying attention to what K did during those 15 years, I have to believe he'd pick up more knowledge than 99% of this board and know how to handle most, if not all, situations regarding players.

I agree 100% with all of this. I fear he has too many off-campus voices in his ear telling him he needs to be a star now, and not emphasizing the work involved in becoming that type of player, no matter how talented he may be.

Again, exactly the way I feel about it.  Regardless of where DB ends up, he'll have the same issues with the next coach.....unless he decides he'd rather be the big fish in a small pond and go to a much lesser school where he can manhandle lesser talent offensively and be hidden defensively. But it doesn't work that way in high major, college hoops.

[Anti-Dentite]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels. Ergo, he deserves more minutes on the court, ESPECIALLY with this new roster makeup with 2 other capable PGs in Carlino and Duane. Then you add in the fact that we went to a zone defense with a focus on creating turnovers, and it really starts to make no sense at all. It also just so happens that he has more potential than Derrick Wilson as well, which only serves to add another layer of confusion. I am not advocating for PT based on potential. Deonte is a better player than Derrick Wilson TODAY and he always has been. That's why he should have been on the court more. He helps us more now AS WELL AS IN THE FUTURE.

I agree. Obviously, mentally, there is some stuff going on with Burton but absolutely he should have seen more court. Everyone on that team has a leash for their shortcomings, Deonte's leash was shortest and it made no sense.  

[NersEllenson]

Problem is, Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes any more than Luke Fischer will be competing for minutes with Derrick. If Deonte could handle the ball and guard the perimeter (and wasn't a complete black hole), you might have an argument here.

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

[Anti-Dentite]

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

Yep.

[Pakuni]

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what's going on in the minds of these kids.
Though it's cute to see you guys now basing your case around defensive usage ... as if you're ever going to win a Deonte vs Derrick on defense argument.

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.

Yes, Ners, it's all about Derrick Wilson. Not only did he singlehandedly destroy Marquette's 2013-14 season, but now he's somehow responsible for the transfer of not one - but two - promising players.
I'm looking forward to the end of this petty obsession of yours.

[Silkk the Shaka]

KenPom algorithm doesn't take into account defensive positioning in a zone, so in a sense you are both right.  Derrick is playing the 1 or 2 in the offense with Burton at the 4.  On defense Derrick and Burton were both playing wings so essentially 3/4 on defensively.  But that would also apply to JjJ and Burton since JjJ played a wing in the zone mostly.

So defensively they were replacements for each other but not offensively.  I'd also argue, if Burton could play the wing on the zone better, Derrick would have played less because that's the only way he beats out Burton.


My biggest disappointment is that Fischer's availability would have done wonders for Burton.  Derrick's minutes would have gone down and Burton's up and all would be right with the world.  Guess we'll never know.

Right, that's more along the lines of what I'm trying to say. Then offensively, with 2 other PGs on the court in Duane and Carlino, playing Derrick in a 3 PG attack with 1/2/3 all essentially interchangeable is completely unnecessary. Just play Duane and Carlino in a 2 guard attack with someone like Juan alongside Deonte in the 3/4 positions on both offense and defense. In that sense, Derrick most certainly is playing in lieu of Deonte and others.

I've said all I need to say on this, I will now cede the floor.

[GGGG]

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out. 

Signed.

And though we battle a lot here Sultan - I too am glad you post here and respect (though disagree on some) you/r takes on MU basketball and passion for it as well.

Ners.  You lasted 25 hours and 13 minutes.  For the love of all that is holy, don't you have any more willpower than that?

[NersEllenson]

So, you have a KenPom subscription that specifically tells (shows) you that neither Derrick or Deonte have been playing the three, then come here to make the case that they're both playing the three?

Do you think Ken Pomeroy watches every college basketball game?  He goes off of what the player is listed off by the program.

Derrick is playing a forward position in our zone defense.  Period.  Burton has a lot more business playing that slot when you have 2 capable guards on the floor in Carlino and Duane.

[NersEllenson]

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what's going on in the minds of these kids.
Though it's cute to see you guys now basing your case around defensive usage ... as if you're ever going to win a Deonte vs Derrick on defense argument.

Yes, Ners, it's all about Derrick Wilson. Not only did he singlehandedly destroy Marquette's 2013-14 season, but now he's somehow responsible for the transfer of not one - but two - promising players.
I'm looking forward to the end of this petty obsession of yours.

LOL - No I won't win that argument.  But, You realize Derrick's D-Rating right now is the worst on the team?  Along with his steal percentage?  But hey, he plays with his hands up on defense.  It's the same old story, those on his side of debate grasping for intangible straws because the stats aren't their to support him playing.  The difference between Burton and Derrick on the O-End is so incredibly wide, Derrick would need to be the absolute best defender we've ever seen in college basketball to offset the huge deficit offensively compared to Burton.

[brewcity77]

The difference between Burton and Derrick on the O-End is so incredibly wide, Derrick would need to be the absolute best defender we've ever seen in college basketball to offset the huge deficit offensively compared to Burton.

Actually, sadly, it's really not. It should be, based on talent, but it's not. In terms of points contributed per 100 possessions, Deonte is adding less than 2 points over Derrick, if all things were equal and they played the same position (which they aren't, and they don't, but...). Strictly offensively, Deonte is turning it over far more and assisting far less, which makes them basically a wash on offense.

That should not be the case. It absolutely should not be. Deonte is vastly more talented than Derrick. But when you factor in that he leads the team in fouls committed/40 minutes and in terms of players in forward roles on defense he is least likely to get to a rebound, it's pretty easy to say Derrick would be earning minutes over Deonte for a reason.

That is, if they played the same position, or were competing for the same minutes. Which they don't, and they aren't.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I 2nd the thought that I hope Deonte was getting good advice, especially in the wake of his mom's passing. As for Derrick, he is doing what is asked of him and that is playing a LOT.

Ners is very out there in his opinions but I don't disagree with him that there has to be some other combination out there that isn't 3 pg lineup. Especially in a zone where Deonte could take some risks jumping the ball.

[mu03eng]

Right, that's more along the lines of what I'm trying to say. Then offensively, with 2 other PGs on the court in Duane and Carlino, playing Derrick in a 3 PG attack with 1/2/3 all essentially interchangeable is completely unnecessary. Just play Duane and Carlino in a 2 guard attack with someone like Juan alongside Deonte in the 3/4 positions on both offense and defense. In that sense, Derrick most certainly is playing in lieu of Deonte and others.

I've said all I need to say on this, I will now cede the floor.

Duane and Carlino are both better off the ball so I get the Derrick thing but it's a valid point.

So in your ideal world the best line-up is:
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

How many minutes can they legitimately play together?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Maybe the fact that Deonte couldn't beat out Juan Anderson and Jajaun Johnson caused him to leave.  Maybe Wally Ellenson is beating him in practice.  Maybe if he could grab more than 1.4 rebound in 16.1 mpg.  Heck, Carlino is averaging 3.0 rpg in 31.0 mpg.  How is a 6-2 175 lb G outrebounding a 6-4 230 lb athletic freak?  Maybe Wojo saw that as a red flag in regards to giving Deonte more playing time?

Sure, Deonte is a great athlete and has the ability to get hot on occasion.  But when he wasn't on a hot streak he was an inconsistent scorer with poor shot selection, played matador defense, and couldn't grab a rebound.  If Deonte would have earned more playing time he wouldn't be transferring.  Some posters are saying Wojo should've just given him playing time and let him shoot every trip down the floor to keep him in the fold.  Ridiculous!  At this point Deonte is still more potential than production.  Who knows if he ever realizes it?  I remember all the fretting after Dameon Mason transferred.  He was a non-factor at LSU averaging 5.4 ppg as a junior and 3.1 ppg as a senior.  I hope Deonte goes on to have success at his next stop but I remain confident Wojo will have success.

As for Dawson, he was already behind Duane at the 1 and Duane, JJJ, and Cohen all were ahead of him on the wing.  Add NN and Cheatham next year and that's just more competition.  I think John has some upside but like Deonte he's more potential than production at this point.  The fact that John couldn't earn playing time with a short roster speaks volumes.  

Good luck to both players.  I think this is best for both of these players and MU.  Opportunities abound for all parties.

[Texas Western]

Inexperienced my azz.  He has been the #1 assistant at a top 3 program for 15 years.  He learned how to handle situations like this from one of the most successful coaches ever.

He has never been a head coach before. Much easier to be an assistant. At Duke he was a part of the program as a player and then an assistant in an already established program. This situation is far different than anything he faced at Duke as there was always stability. For the most part he has done some good things, but I am also saying that his inexperience  in part led to this outcome, I am not willing to put it solely on the kids involved. Wojo will reflect someday on this and realize this. These kids were all very tight and more than one lost sleep over this.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

Here's the problem:

#1 That line-up is risky because if you have foul trouble, you'll essentially be left with Sandy Cohen playing post.

#2 Deonte has looked lost this year. Not overmatched. Lost. It's hard for a coach to play a guy (for extended minutes) who doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

I love Deonte, and clearly, he's a talented player. I'm sure the coaching staff would love to give him more minutes. But, he has to prove that he's worthy of those minutes. That has nothing to do with Derrick, and everything to do with Deonte.

[brandx]

I can say unequivocally that Deonte, since day 1 at Marquette, is and has been a better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That will never change, it is a fact, regardless of effort levels or the appearance of effort levels.

Deonte can NOT dribble, pass, rebound or play defense better than Derrick. Deonte does not value the ball, does not know where he should be on the floor at times, and is unable to play in the context of the offense.

Deonte has more potential than Derrick and more basketball athleticism, but is NOT a better basketball player right now.

And I am NOT saying this in any way to glorify Derrick.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Duane and Carlino are both better off the ball so I get the Derrick thing but it's a valid point.

So in your ideal world the best line-up is:
Carlino
Duane
Burton
Juan
Teve

How many minutes can they legitimately play together?

I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

[willie warrior]

Deonte can NOT dribble, pass, rebound or play defense better than Derrick. Deonte does not value the ball, does not know where he should be on the floor at times, and is unable to play in the context of the offense.

Deonte has more potential than Derrick and more basketball athleticism, but is NOT a better basketball player right now.

And I am NOT saying this in any way to glorify Derrick.

Hmmmmmm......Now that is quite a statement.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

Deonte's inability to understand zone D concepts is a big part of why he doesn't play. Putting him at the bottom of the zone isn't going to solve that. Derrick can play there because, despite his size, he knows where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.