Have To Tell It Like It is

[mu03eng]

I'm just saying that's one easy way to play Deonte instead of Derrick, and a way to show that playing Derrick at the bottom of a 2/3 zone in a 3 PG attack eats minutes from a guy like Bane. You could insert Cohen in for one of the guard spots at the top of the 2/3 as well. People ask "how many minutes can a lineup like that play"? (and I'm not singling you out). Well, the answer is that the Derrick plays 33 mpg (as he has gotten like clockwork when healthy after game 2 this year). It could play significantly longer together if those minutes went south and a traditional 2 guard attack was utilized. Easily.

I think you are wrong on just how easily it can be done.  Given how Burton played this year, he couldn't be out there more than 20 minutes without Fischer be eligible.  Without Luke there is maybe two possible combinations that can occur with Burton on the floor and no Derrick.  There are infinite combinations since Derrick can play 4 of 5 spots in the zone.

Juan is the back-up to Teve and Burton is the back-up to Juan.  You absolutely can't play JjJ and Burton together for more than a minute or two.

[dgies9156]

One of the interesting things about this debate is the aforementioned "who brought about" the Burton transfer. My instincts tell me that given Coach Wojo's own experience -- where he was told he was not expected to be a starter on Duke's team and he subsequently went away for the summer, dealt with his weaknesses and came back changed -- he probably only told Deonte that others were playing ahead of him and he had work to do.

No doubt Deonte saw something different and wasn't likely to put the work in Coach Wojo did in his own experience. In effect, you have to want it and Deonte, tragically, did not want it badly enough to make changes. It's too bad because at times one could see what Deonte could be with our team.

Nonetheless, let's wish him well and hope he has a great career somewhere else.

[MUFC9295]

I'm certain a young man like Deonte is still aiming high.  The "it" may simply be another, elsewhere.  In speaking with the coaches after the pre-seaon luncheon, more than ever the fit is paramount.  Neither talent nor potential is the most important factor in a players success.

[NersEllenson]

Deonte's inability to understand zone D concepts is a big part of why he doesn't play. Putting him at the bottom of the zone isn't going to solve that. Derrick can play there because, despite his size, he knows where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.

Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Do you not think Deonte looked at our zone D and saw Derrick playing as a forward and thought to himself WTF?

I have NO doubt this was the domino that caused Deonte to say, I'm out.  The best lineup for MU prior Luke would have been:

Carlino
Duane
Deonte
Juan
Steve

I think you are right that Deonte would have benefited from playing the three, but the problem with that lineup is that 3 of the 4 guys who can play the post positions are on the floor at the same time. Deonte led the team in fouls per 40 minutes (4.96...yowser!). If Deonte gets in foul trouble, you have Juan, Steve, and Cohen who have to be on the floor for the rest of the game. Wojo was smart not to put the three of them on the floor at the same time.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Actually, sadly, it's really not. It should be, based on talent, but it's not. In terms of points contributed per 100 possessions, Deonte is adding less than 2 points over Derrick, if all things were equal and they played the same position (which they aren't, and they don't, but...). Strictly offensively, Deonte is turning it over far more and assisting far less, which makes them basically a wash on offense.

That should not be the case. It absolutely should not be. Deonte is vastly more talented than Derrick. But when you factor in that he leads the team in fouls committed/40 minutes and in terms of players in forward roles on defense he is least likely to get to a rebound, it's pretty easy to say Derrick would be earning minutes over Deonte for a reason.

That is, if they played the same position, or were competing for the same minutes. Which they don't, and they aren't.

Winner winner, chicken dinner

[brandx]

Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

Pretty obvious answer.

If it is being taught and the other guys are understanding it.....

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Then who's fault is that, that he isn't grasping the zone D concepts?  Is that on Deonte or the coaching staff?  And btw, I feel there are some great exaggerations being made as to Deonte's deficiencies within the zone.

Honestly, I blame Derrick.

[GooooMarquette]

Honestly, I blame Derrick.

Well played, Ammo!  This board needed a laugh...

[NersEllenson]

Winner winner, chicken dinner

This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

Again, I'd love to hear what type of numbers people think Derrick would be posting if he were playing 10-16 minutes per game broken up in 4 segments of PT.  We can look to his sophomore year where he averaged 13 minutes a game and see his O-Rating was an 85.7.

When a guy gets a consistent 30 minutes a game, night in and night out - that is the optimum type of environment for posting legitimate numbers - as far as what you really have in a player.  When you get down into the 10-15 minute range, looking at stats does become a very shaky extrapolation to assume those would bear themselves out if the player were playing 30 a night.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If you want to look for the culprits "taking" Deonte's minutes, you need to look at Juan and Cohen.

Deonte was used EXCLUSIVELY at the four this season. Deonte didn't play the three ever. Derrick Wilson had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, to do with Deonte's playing time.

People get so wrapped up in "Derrick sucks, give his minutes to Deonte" that they forget the make up of our team. We only had four players who could play the post positions: Steve, Juan, Cohen, and Deonte. Wojo never played any of those three on the court at the same time. Or if he did, it wasn't for very long.

Basically our team was split into two groups:

Group A (guards): Duane, Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, JjJ
Group B (forwards): Deonte, Cohen, Juan, Steve

Usually there is a Group C (wings) who are players from group A/B who go both ways. But because of how short our bench was, we didn't have this luxury. The minutes of players in Group A have nothing to do with the minutes of players in Group B and vice-versa.

The four and the five positions are the most foul prone in all of basketball. And Deonte was our most foul prone player (4.96 fouls per 40). If Wojo played Deonte at the three (or Juan or Cohen for that matter) it would have been a huge risk that could have cost us games.

So if you accept the premise that Wojo only played Cohen and Deonte at the four for fear of foul trouble, than they only people "stealing" minutes from Deonte was Juan and Cohen. Deonte played more than Cohen. And I don't think anyone here will try to make an argument that Deonte was playing better than Juan this season.

Derrick has NOTHING to do with this debate.

If you want to argue about Derrick taking minutes from JjJ or Dawson, sure. But Derrick didn't "take" a single minute from Deonte.

This is why Luke coming in was so exciting. Cohen and Deonte would have most likely been freed from being used exclusively at the four. They could have shifted to their natural positions at the three. I was hoping and predicting that Deonte would break out in the second half and become the starting wing.

[brewcity77]

One of the interesting things about this debate is the aforementioned "who brought about" the Burton transfer.

That is the big question.

[wadesworld]

This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

Again, I'd love to hear what type of numbers people think Derrick would be posting if he were playing 10-16 minutes per game broken up in 4 segments of PT.  We can look to his sophomore year where he averaged 13 minutes a game and see his O-Rating was an 85.7.

When a guy gets a consistent 30 minutes a game, night in and night out - that is the optimum type of environment for posting legitimate numbers - as far as what you really have in a player.  When you get down into the 10-15 minute range, looking at stats does become a very shaky extrapolation to assume those would bear themselves out if the player were playing 30 a night.

Yeah, let's look at Derrick's numbers 2 years ago, because, you know, players don't get better over the course of a college career!  Let's look at Derrick's numbers 2 years ago but Deonte's today.  Makes perfect sense.

You're forgetting the most important part, that Wojo isn't determining who should be playing just based on in game production (which, as brewcity pointed out, Derrick is outperforming Deonte, but let's ignore those facts hey?).  He's basing it on what he sees for roughly 2-3 hours every single day.  Do you think Deonte's absolutely tearing up practice, but Wojo (and Buzz) are just like, "Nah, I don't want to play the guy?"  I highly doubt it, but hey, you know better than both Wojo and Buzz so maybe.  Or maybe they're only letting Deonte play 2-3 minute segments in practice too, so he looks bad too.  Yeah, that must be it.

Makes no sense, but whatever.  You know more than Wojo and Buzz.

[GooooMarquette]

This is where it helps if you have played the game.  You understand all minutes are not equal.  You understand that it is very difficult to accomplish much if put on the floor for 2-4 minutes at a time in a series of disjointed segments.  Basketball is a game of rhythm.

So Wojo understands this...right?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

BIG PICTURE:

How often do we think college coaches have better players riding on the bench, and fail to play them?

Right now, it appears (to some people) that MU has had 2 such coaches in a row.

Seem unlikely, right?

[GGGG]

So Wojo understands this...right?

He was a coaches pet.  Just like Derrick.  So...no.

[GooooMarquette]

BIG PICTURE:

How often do we think college coaches have better players riding on the bench, and fail to play them?

Right now, it appears (to some people) that MU has had 2 such coaches in a row.

Seem unlikely, right?

Damn, Ammo.  Common sense and logic?  With this crowd?

[mu03eng]

If you want to look for the culprits "taking" Deonte's minutes, you need to look at Juan and Cohen.

Deonte was used EXCLUSIVELY at the four this season. Deonte didn't play the three ever. Derrick Wilson had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, to do with Deonte's playing time.

People get so wrapped up in "Derrick sucks, give his minutes to Deonte" that they forget the make up of our team. We only had four players who could play the post positions: Steve, Juan, Cohen, and Deonte. Wojo never played any of those three on the court at the same time. Or if he did, it wasn't for very long.

Basically our team was split into two groups:

Group A (guards): Duane, Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, JjJ
Group B (forwards): Deonte, Cohen, Juan, Steve

Usually there is a Group C (wings) who are players from group A/B who go both ways. But because of how short our bench was, we didn't have this luxury. The minutes of players in Group A have nothing to do with the minutes of players in Group B and vice-versa.

The four and the five positions are the most foul prone in all of basketball. And Deonte was our most foul prone player (4.96 fouls per 40). If Wojo played Deonte at the three (or Juan or Cohen for that matter) it would have been a huge risk that could have cost us games.

So if you accept the premise that Wojo only played Cohen and Deonte at the four for fear of foul trouble, than they only people "stealing" minutes from Deonte was Juan and Cohen. Deonte played more than Cohen. And I don't think anyone here will try to make an argument that Deonte was playing better than Juan this season.

Derrick has NOTHING to do with this debate.

If you want to argue about Derrick taking minutes from JjJ or Dawson, sure. But Derrick didn't "take" a single minute from Deonte.

This is why Luke coming in was so exciting. Cohen and Deonte would have most likely been freed from being used exclusively at the four. They could have shifted to their natural positions at the three. I was hoping and predicting that Deonte would break out in the second half and become the starting wing.

I was thinking something along these lines.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but isn't the prevailing theory that zone defenses don't foul as much as man to man?  If that's the case, Burton's foul rate is even more ridiculous.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I was thinking something along these lines.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but isn't the prevailing theory that zone defenses don't foul as much as man to man?  If that's the case, Burton's foul rate is even more ridiculous.

To be fair, a quarter of his fouls came when we were playing man to man at the beginning of the season.

[keefe]

To be fair, a quarter of his fouls came when we were playing man to man at the beginning of the season.

My completely unscientific observation is that most of Burton's fouls occurred in the immediate aftermath of one of his patented completely bone-headed offensive turnovers.

A. Burton turns ball over
B. In frustration, Burton slaps at the opponent now in possession of basketball
C. Ref whistles the foul on Burton
D. In frustration, Marquette faithful wince at another possession gone horribly wrong because of Burton's absolute lack of discipline

[Aughnanure]

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

[GGGG]

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Ners broke his latest Derrick Moratorium - a day after he made it.

[Pakuni]

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

Also blaming Derrick for Burton's transfer.
Yes, really.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wait, let me get this straight. People are now blaming Derrick for Burton's lack of minutes? What is happening here?

He truly is the team's whipping boy. At least with the team's on the court performance, arguments could be made. But here?

[Ardmore Mug]

I was wondering... While staying at a Holiday Inn Express, I dreamt I was a Div 1 BB coach. Does that qualify  about the same as playing high school BB ??   just askin'...