Have To Tell It Like It is

[g0lden3agle]

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Not sure I totally agree with this.  That's basically saying we're committed to running with a three guard lineup where Carlino Duane and Derrick each get 25-35 any give night?

[NersEllenson]

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Derrick has been playing as a forward on the defensive end.  Burton is a hell of a lot more a 3, than a 1 or 2, to be competing with Duane/Sandy/JJJ.  And Derrick, while, I'm not sure if he's even a 1 or 2, but he's a lot more that, than a 3.

A 2 guard lineup, with a guy like Burton at the 3 is very traditional and not at all abnormal.  You play Carlino, Duane, Burton with Steve and Juan.  If foul trouble becomes an issue - than sub Derrick in for Deonte/Steve/Juan - whichever one is in foul trouble.  Dawson could have backed up Carlino and Duane.  

[21rooster]

Ners' idea that Deonte should have been given minutes to keep him around is absurd.  On game day, Wojo's job is to play the most effective combination of players...and he has done that.  He has put together a team that has four losses...the same number of losses that MU had last year.  

The differences between this year and last: this year's losses include 11-point losses (no blow-outs) to the three highest-ranked teams in the top conference(all top 20 at the time)...and one bad loss. Last year's team had already been blown out by 17 points at home, and it wasn't even that close.  Last year's team had Otule, Jamil Wilson, Gardner, Mayo and Jake Thomas.  This year's team added Carlino and Cohen.  Both are playing well, but not to the extent that it offsets the loss of three big men and our clutch player from last year. Finally, this year's team is showing improvement, something that seemed to lack last year.  

My point: Given the players on the roster, Wojo's performance has been an improvement over last year's start.  Wojo has been using the combination that gives us the best chance to win.  As fans, we can look past this year and say we should keep guys happy for the coming years.  As a coach, Wojo's job is to win.  For the seniors (including a kid Wojo convinced to come to MU for his last year of eligibility), next year doesn't matter.  These guys want to win now.  

Last year's version of Deonte was able to help us win now.  For whatever reason (tragedy in his life, lack of big men, new offense, etc.), Deonte was not able to help the team win on game day, at least not more than the seven guys ahead of him.  His assist to turnover rate was 0.18x.  He was averaging 1.4 rebounds per game.  Even if you double his minutes to starter's minutes, 2.8 rebounds per game doesn't cut it for a power forward.  Our embattled point guard is averaging a comparable 2.0 rebounds per game.  We all know about his defensive struggles.  Given this production this year, it's just hard to justify additional minutes.  

Burton seems like a great kid who will flourish in the right system.  I will cheer for him, even if he follows his old coach (though I won't cheer for his team in that case), which may be a better fit given his production last year.  But we shouldn't fault Wojo for giving playing time to the kids who give Marquette the best chance to win.  

[mu03eng]

Derrick has been playing as a forward on the defensive end.  Burton is a hell of a lot more a 3, than a 1 or 2, to be competing with Duane/Sandy/JJJ.  And Derrick, while, I'm not sure if he's even a 1 or 2, but he's a lot more that, than a 3.

A 2 guard lineup, with a guy like Burton at the 3 is very traditional and not at all abnormal.  You play Carlino, Duane, Burton with Steve and Juan.  If foul trouble becomes an issue - than sub Derrick in for Deonte/Steve/Juan - whichever one is in foul trouble.  Dawson could have backed up Carlino and Duane.  

How many minutes can you play that line-up?

Let's take a different tack.  You've acknowledged that Burton hasn't performed this season.  He could be distracted due to his circumstances or maybe he's pressing and all up in his head instead of just reacting.  Let's assume he's pressing, as a former player you should know sometimes what that player needs is time off or limited exposure to work things out.  Perhaps Wojo was limiting Burton's minutes for this reason.

This is just as likely as your Wojo sees himself in Derrick so he plays a worse player theory.  Unless you talk to Wojo there is no way to know.

[MerrittsMustache]

Well given Vander had a pretty significant fall off as a senior at Madison Memorial, I certainly didn't think he'd come in and be a star.

And Buycks was hardly a JUCO No Name - He was 1st Team All-American, and was a high major recruit coming out of HS but didn't have credentials to go D-1.  Buycks had plenty of talent.  And of course he's proven to be more NBA worthy than Vander at this point.

I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

Buycks was a 2-star recruit heading to Bradley out of HS. That's not high-major.

99.9% of Jucos are no-names. Off the top of your head, name one Juco All-American from 2013-14.

Blue averaged 26.6 min/game before conference play began and 14.9 min/game after. Is that "pretty good playing time" in your book? Burton is getting more than that this year (16.1) so, by your definition, he was also getting pretty good PT.

[mattyv1908]

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

[GGGG]

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

[MerrittsMustache]

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

Because TALENT WINS OUT!

[mattyv1908]

I could argue is that Burton hasn't shown anything that Juan hasn't so far this year.  Juan is better at rebounding and assists, and their FG%, scoring, turnovers, etc. are all about the same with each. 

Why would you give Juan's minutes to Deonte then?

I didn't say Juan, I said JJJ.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

This thread is just completely hopeless

[mu03eng]

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

If the argument is you take JjJ's minutes and give them to Burton, it has a lot of merit.  That's not the argument being made for 14 pages of thread

[mattyv1908]

If the argument is you take JjJ's minutes and give them to Burton, it has a lot of merit.  That's not the argument being made for 14 pages of thread

I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

[mu03eng]

I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

You are preaching to the converted on JjJ, I don't think anyone would argue with you on that.

I do think Steve and Juan are a different story, they've "looked" better this year and especially Juan has been statistically measurable as better than Burton as Sultan indicated.  Steve has something Burton doesn't, height.

[MU82]

He agreed to 48 hours ago.  What makes you think that even if he says he'll stop, that he won't start it right back up again?

Ners at 10:53 a.m.: "OK, Derrick Moratorium officially in place."

Ners at 10:54 a.m.: "We'd be well on our way to a second straight national title if Derrick had never been born!"

[GGGG]

Ners at 10:53 a.m.: "OK, Derrick Moratorium officially in place."

Ners at 10:54 a.m.: "We'd be well on our way to a second straight national title if Derrick had never been born!"

I hope the guy never tries cocaine.  He'd be dead in a week with that willpower.

[mattyv1908]

You are preaching to the converted on JjJ, I don't think anyone would argue with you on that.

I do think Steve and Juan are a different story, they've "looked" better this year and especially Juan has been statistically measurable as better than Burton as Sultan indicated.  Steve has something Burton doesn't, height.

Really?

I've read post after post with regards to Burton not 'earning' more minutes either in practice or in games.  How he's not a Wojo type player.  How he looks lost on the court.  How playing guys simply because they have potential ruins a team.

Yes I've lumped Juan and Steve in with JJJ because if they're not losing the ball off their feet their missing a lay up but with their size they need to be playing.

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

Even Ners would have made progress on this board had he lobbied Dawson be playing over JJJ.

[MerrittsMustache]

I have not said once that Derrick was limiting Deonte's playing time.  That would be Ners.

I've said that with the exception of Juan's rebounding, those three guys (Steve, Juan and JJJ) have looked every bit as bad as Burton.  Obviously with our lack of size Steve and Juan are going to be playing a lot of minutes.

But what has JJJ shown he does better than anyone?

The numbers for Deonte and JJJ are very similar and JJJ's minutes have decreased in each of the last 3 games. In fact, since the Ohio State game, Deonte has played 4 more total minutes than JJJ. It was trending in the direction of Burton getting some of JJJ's minutes.

[MerrittsMustache]

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

How could you look at either one of them and honestly think he deserves more playing time than the other? The one aspect that gave JJJ a slight edge early on is that he has a better ability to guard on the perimeter.

They're getting the same amount of PT and both struggled. The opportunity was there, yet neither took advantage of it.

[brandx]

This thread is just completely hopeless

We need to petition the moderator to set up a site for Ners like he did for politics. Then he can just argue with himself and we can have our board back.

I thought nothing could be worse than Chico's carpet-bombing threads with his posts to prove his intellectual superiority, but Ners may even be worse.

[GooooMarquette]

Yes I've lumped Juan and Steve in with JJJ because if they're not losing the ball off their feet their missing a lay up but with their size they need to be playing.

How anyone can look at JJJ and Burton and honestly think he deserves playing time over Burton is rediculous.

I agree - Juan and Steve needed to be in for their height, so the comparison is irrelevant.

As to JJJ, Wojo could use either/or, and it'd be hard to notice the difference in overall production.  In fact, I think he was going back and forth between the two, probably trying to figure out who could help the team most over the course of the season.  The usage seems to bear this out, as they have received comparable minutes this season -- far less than the five starters, but more than John and Sandy.  My guess is that Wojo has given slightly more minutes to JJJ than Deonte with the hope that he'd be an outside threat who could help us overcome our size deficiency.  In any event, they were both given a chance to show that they deserved to get the "sixth man" minutes.  So how do you fault Wojo for taking two highly talented, highly athletic, but currently underachieving kids, and giving them both a chance to prove he's the guy?

Edit:  In addition to Wojo giving them both a run, the trend has actually been moving more in Deonte's direction of late.  In the first four games, JJJ got way more minutes (99 to 65), while in the last four, the balance has shifted slightly in Deonte's favor (64 to 63).  Could it be that Wojo was starting to see more overall value in Deonte than JJJ...but Deonte didn't stick around long enough to see how it worked out?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Sorry TAMU - I disagree.  You play your best players and deal with foul trouble as you need to.  If Deonte gets in foul trouble - you throw Derrick in for him at the bottom of the zone.  You don't go into every game thinking, oh boy, what if we get into foul trouble.

I can tell you that any coach worth his salt would hit you over the head for this strategy. You only have four players who can play the post? You start two, only play two at a time, then if the game calls for it in the second half (and you aren't in foul trouble), you can start playing three of them at the same.

And I assure you, Deonte was doing some serious head scratching as he watched Derrick playing a forward position.  That did not rest well with him. 

Then either Deonte doesn't understand how a depth chart works, or Wojo did a poor job explaining to him why he wasn't being played at the three.

[mu03eng]

Really?

I've read post after post with regards to Burton not 'earning' more minutes either in practice or in games.  How he's not a Wojo type player.  How he looks lost on the court.  How playing guys simply because they have potential ruins a team.

Are any of them relative to JjJ??  Not a single post I've seen has said JjJ should play more than Burton.  Find it if I'm wrong

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

I'm not talking about getting kids into the NBA. I'm talking about coaching a college basketball team. Of course talent gets you into the NBA but hard work is what makes you a better player and a better team. Players don't develop if they don't listen to their coaches. And if they aren't listening to their coaches, then they shouldn't play.

As much as I hate Cal, he's actually one of the best at getting talented players to work hard, develop, and...god forbid...even sit on the bench when they are not playing up to his standards.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

I will agree that a more experienced coach probably could have handled this better. More experienced coaches are better at having tough conversations and navigating whatever outside factors are affecting their players' lives. Agree with this 100%. What I disagree with is the implication some people have made that Wojo should have given Deonte more minutes in order to placate them. I don't know of a single high major coach who would do that. If a player says "play me more or I'm transferring" you try to convince him that the minutes are there for him to earn. You tell him that as he improves in practice and as a player he will get more time. In this specific situation, you tell him that with Luke coming in, he will be able to play him at the three more, potentially opening up more minutes. But if that isn't enough, then you let the kid transfer.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

He deserves whatever minutes he earns. Talent earns you a certain amount of playing time. But hard work and doing what is asked of you earns the rest. And no Wojo shouldn't be fired for limiting the minutes of a player who isn't doing what is asked of him in practice. I think anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand how coaching works.

I have no idea what Deonte was doing in practice. What I do know is that he was the backup power forward playing behind Juan. On the court, Juan was outperforming Deonte by leaps and bounds. I think Deonte was closer to getting too much playing time than he was to getting too little playing time. Hell, I even think Sandy has played better this season and he has been getting less minutes than him. It's a shame Deonte didn't get to play his natural position at the three, I think it would have helped things click.

Lastly, the more and more I hear about this, the less and less I think it has to do with playing time.

[brewcity77]

Brew -

With the exception of Juan's rebounding, I can't think of any aspect where Juan, Steve or JJJ have looked any better than Burton.

IMO you could have nailed JJJ to the bench like Dawson and given all his minutes to Burton.

This would have a lot more merit if you argued that Burton looked better than any of those three guys, but he hasn't. Juan has looked better than Burton in nearly every aspect of the game except the free throw line.

Steve, JJJ, and Burton have all struggled. So what is the answer? To play Burton because he might transfer? I think the real problem is that the people who seem to want Burton to get more minutes are ignoring the simple and blatant fact that he has been bad on offense this year. He has been less efficient, less aggressive, less likely to get offensive rebounds, less likely to create chances for his teammates, and more likely to turn the ball over.

I love Burton's potential, but he has been bad. I love Burton as a kid, think he is a fantastic representative of Marquette, but on the court, he has been bad. And not just on defense. I have a complete inability of understanding why we would take minutes from Steve and Jajuan to give them to someone who really hasn't been any more effective than either of those guys. I wanted this kid to be fantastic, I expected him to be a leader, a scorer, and to grow into an all-conference and possibly an All-American player. But he hasn't been any of that. And giving more minutes to him when he is already struggling to produce in the minutes he is getting isn't likely to fix that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

Every time? No. Some of the time? Yes. Most of the time? Maybe.

But this is the wrong argument. It stops short.

2 players

Player A: 1 with huge talent, but coasts on his talent
Player B: 1 with less talent, but works his ass off

Coach plays Player A over Player B
Result: Player A does well, but never gets better because he is coasting on talent. Player B gets frustrated that Player A slacks off but still gets minutes and quits himself because what's the point? If Player B is really hard working, maybe he keeps working until he surpasses player A.

Coach plays Player B over Player A
Result: Player B does ok and slowly gets better the more time he gets. Player A gets frustrated because he is more talented than Player B. Player A realizes he has to work as hard as Player B if he wants playing time. Player A works harder, becomes a better player and quickly surpasses Player B. Player B doesn't get frustrated because he sees Player A working as hard as he is. Of course, if Player A is especially lazy or entitled, he may rage quit.

If a talented player is not naturally motivated, sometimes the only way to get them to develop is to sit them in favor of the players who are working harder. If you don't hold lazy players accountable than it ruins team chemistry, trust, and player development. This is coaching 101.

All this being said, I don't think this is what happened in our specific case. Juan was the only person in front of Burton for minutes and I think even Burton would admit that Juan has played better than he has this season.