Have To Tell It Like It is

[NersEllenson]

This clearly explains why Jimmy Butler (#30 pick of 2011 NBA Draft)  is on the verge of an all-star season while a naturally talented guy like Derrick Williams (#2 pick of the 2011 NBA Draft) is playing less than 12 minutes per game for a middling team.
EVERY TIME!

Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Your view on Deonte's playing time make your 2014 Dawson argument seem logical.

[NavinRJohnson]

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Yep, and two consecutive head coached who have been directly involved in basketball their entire lives, obviously don't posses the acumen as a keyboard coach such as yourself.

[Skatastrophy]

[NersEllenson]

Yep, and two consecutive head coached who have been directly involved in basketball their entire lives, obviously don't posses the acumen you do.

Are you aware the coaches frequently try to use motivational tactics to elicit a response they want to see?  The bench is known is the biggest motivator.

Sometimes the tactic fails. Sometimes what the coach wants to extract - isn't there in the player.  Coaches tend to hold a player they view as extremely talented to a higher standard than a clearly less talented player.

Not all kids respond well to benching - particularly when you are sitting behind a clearly less talented and unproductive player.

[brandx]

Methinks the entire argument is wrong. Maybe it's not either that Deonte is supremely talented and should play OR that he doesn't work hard enough and shouldn't play more.

Maybe he is very talented AND he worked hard at practice. Maybe it is that he just doesn't have an aptitude for basketball - a high basketball IQ, as it were. Maybe that is why he looked so lost at times, why he would just drive down the lane like a bull in a china shop despite a couple defenders being there, why he was so often out of position on defense. Maybe, despite his obvious talents, he just didn't get it.

Maybe we're all too busy trying to argue with those incredibly stupid comments that Ners has about the subject that we are distracted from the real problem.

[Pakuni]

Good point.  Where you are totally and completely awry is that both players had enough talent to get to the NBA - inherently good talent.

What we are talking about is MU basketball/college hoops where guys like Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas are playing over guys like Mayo and Deonte.  Facepalm.

Ah, I must have misunderstood that when your wrote "the basketball world" you were excluding the NBA. Because no one would ever think that the NBA was part of "the basketball world."

So, let's stick to college.
Frank Kaminsky, a three-star recruit who chose UW over powerhouses like Bradley, Northern Illinois and Northwestern, is a likely first-term All American and first-round NBA pick.

RSCI top 20 players in that same recruiting class included:
James McAdoo (now in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Adonis Thomas (also in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Khem Birch (same)
Myck Kabongo (same)
Josiah Turner (same)
Jabari Brown (same)

Natural talent wins EVERY TIME!

[keefe]

On the other end of the spectrum we have guys like Rudy

I thought Rudy was a product of his own feracious imagination and the Disney hype machine

[keefe]

The hard working Tom Brady was held down by Lloyd Carr who preferred the on-the-surface more talented Drew Henson.   Guess Lloyd should have gone with the gamer.  

Yea, but Steinbrenner made Henson a multi-millionaire at 19 so he's got that on Brady...

[NersEllenson]

Ah, I must have misunderstood that when your wrote "the basketball world" you were excluding the NBA. Because no one would ever think that the NBA was part of "the basketball world."

So, let's stick to college.
Frank Kaminsky, a three-star recruit who chose UW over powerhouses like Bradley, Northern Illinois and Northwestern, is a likely first-term All American and first-round NBA pick.

RSCI top 20 players in that same recruiting class included:
James McAdoo (now in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Adonis Thomas (also in the D-League after unimpressive college career)
Khem Birch (same)
Myck Kabongo (same)
Josiah Turner (same)
Jabari Brown (same)

Natural talent wins EVERY TIME!

That's a fine example.  

Kaminsky is producing...he absolutely deserves all the time he gets on the floor.  Because the in-game results are there.  We have been debating the merits of Deonte getting playing time versus others.

How many more games of horsecrap production from Derrick is it going to take for you and the others to say:  He may work hard in practice, be a great guy, great teammate - but his production just doesn't warrant all the time on the court he's "earned?"

[keefe]

my analysis may be off base but it's based on the eye test.  

Frankly, the "smell" test is the far better gauge...one whiff usually gets right to the heart of things...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's a fine example.  

Kaminsky is producing...he absolutely deserves all the time he gets on the floor.  Because the in-game results are there.  We have been debating the merits of Deonte getting playing time versus others.

How many more games of horsecrap production from Derrick is it going to take for you and the others to say:  He may work hard in practice, be a great guy, great teammate - but his production just doesn't warrant all the time on the court he's "earned?"

I really think this whole thing has more to do with Derrick than Deonte (for you anyways).

Can we all agree to knock this off? We've covered this before.

[MerrittsMustache]

NM

[GGGG]

I really think this whole thing has more to do with Derrick than Deonte (for you anyways).

Can we all agree to knock this off? We've covered this before.

He agreed to 48 hours ago.  What makes you think that even if he says he'll stop, that he won't start it right back up again?

[reinko]

NM

Exactly.  It is so great to type out a response to something the poster who shall not be named writes...I just then delete it, and hit the back button, and go about my day.  

[Texas Western]

TAMU-

1.  For every Jimmy Butler there are 100's of Derrick Rose's that come in highly touted and leave early for the NBA highly touted.  Talent wins out almost all of the time.  Again life isn't fair.

2.  Everybody hates coach Cal, UNLESS you're a UK student, alum or fan.

3.  In the specific case of Deonte Burton, I responded earlier in this post when various people were saying Burton looked lost on the court that perhaps Deonte was lost in general given the circumstances.  Now that is no excuse to perform poorly, but it certainly is understandable and is definitely a delicate situation considering he's 19 or 20 years old and probably has relied heavily on his mother.  While I would expect a grown man (Wojo) and his staff to have more maturity in this situation over a youngster trying to find his way in D1 basketball with a horrible situation, I don't believe it means he should be fired.  I DO BELIEVE a more experienced coach navigates this more successfully.  Hopefully this is a learning experience for him moving forward.

4.  After a very promising freshman season (Wojo and staff obviously know this), 8 games in is too early for Deonte to bail, but at the same time it's too early to bail on Deonte, especially given his potential and circumstances.  Had Wojo gone on record and said that he did everything in his power to encourage Burton to stay you wouldn't hear a thing from me in regards to this being an error on our coaching staff.  I understand his coach speak, but this may be a situation where being totally honest may have been the best move.

5.  With a limited bench, if Wojo didn't fight like hell to keep him on board at least through the end of the season it's a coaching error in my opinion.

6.  Let's pretend Henry Ellenson doesn't work hard in practice.  Does he deserve to play because of his potential and ability or is that unfair to those who are less talented and working harder?  If he limits Ellenson's minutes because of poor practice, should Wojo be fired immediately like some suggest because he's not doing everything to win now?  I know this is a hypothetical, but given his ranking coming into MU I figure there's not a better example to use for this scenario.

Keep passing out the Kool Aid and I'll make sure I piss in your Cheerios  

Points 3,4 and 5 are why I started this thread, and are more eloquently written.  

[MerrittsMustache]

Perfect example: Vander Blue

He was a highly-touted HS prospect who many believed was going to be a star from day 1. He wasn't. He struggled to put the ball in the basket, he forced the action, he turned the ball over...and he still saw minutes.

Why?

Because he contributed in other areas. He was a very good defender. He rebounded. He played within the offense. However, as the season went on, his minutes decreased.

Why?

Because, despite his contributions, Juco no-name* Dwight Buycks was outperforming him. That doesn't mean Blue wasn't working hard or that Buycks was more talented. It was the case of a more naturally-gifted athlete not producing as much as a less naturally-gifted player. Should Buzz have planted Buycks on the bench and played Blue 25 min/game simply because he had a higher ceiling but less production?


* - no disrespect intended to Dwight

[brewcity77]

Deonte was considered to be a breakout player this season.  Coming off All Big East Freshman selection in just 12 minutes of play.  Kevin O'Neill raved about him - as did just about every other color commentator last year.  

So he should play because a bunch of media people wrote filler articles about him in the preseason? That's about as smart as playing guys because people on message boards say so.

At some point it has to come down to actual production, and Deonte wasn't producing. Not to the level of our expectations, not to the level of media expectations, and not to the level of the less talented guys that you feel should be behind him.

[NersEllenson]

Perfect example: Vander Blue

He was a highly-touted HS prospect who many believed was going to be a star from day 1. He wasn't. He struggled to put the ball in the basket, he forced the action, he turned the ball over...and he still saw minutes.

Why?

Because he contributed in other areas. He was a very good defender. He rebounded. He played within the offense. However, as the season went on, his minutes decreased.

Why?

Because, despite his contributions, Juco no-name* Dwight Buycks was outperforming him. That doesn't mean Blue wasn't working hard or that Buycks was more talented. It was the case of a more naturally-gifted athlete not producing as much as a less naturally-gifted player. Should Buzz have planted Buycks on the bench and played Blue 25 min/game simply because he had a higher ceiling but less production?


* - no disrespect intended to Dwight

Well given Vander had a pretty significant fall off as a senior at Madison Memorial, I certainly didn't think he'd come in and be a star.

And Buycks was hardly a JUCO No Name - He was 1st Team All-American, and was a high major recruit coming out of HS but didn't have credentials to go D-1.  Buycks had plenty of talent.  And of course he's proven to be more NBA worthy than Vander at this point.

I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

[NersEllenson]

So he should play because a bunch of media people wrote filler articles about him in the preseason? That's about as smart as playing guys because people on message boards say so.

At some point it has to come down to actual production, and Deonte wasn't producing. Not to the level of our expectations, not to the level of media expectations, and not to the level of the less talented guys that you feel should be behind him.

For the love of God Brew - how can you tout a players production, or lack thereof and champion Derrick for minutes??  Again, play Derrick 16 minutes a game, in 3 different stints of 5 minutes of action - what kind of production do you think we'd be getting?  Hell when he plays 35+ minutes we typically get about 4 points and 2 assists.  Somehow, I imagine if Burton got 35 plus he'd achieve a good deal more than that, as well as triple Derrick's steals/block totals.

[MarquetteDano]

I'm not convinced Vander had a higher ceiling than Buycks.  Furthermore, Buycks was producing at a decent level, and VAnder still got time, and pretty good playing time.  Imagine Vander sitting behind Derrick or Jake.  C'mon Man.

A bit revisionist.  There were loads of posters who absolutely hated Buycks on this board and were literally wishing him injury and thought he shouldn't get 2 minutes of playing time.

There was a poster named "NoMoreBuycks".

[mu-rara]

In the basketball world:

2 players

1 with huge amount of talent
1 with little talent, but works hard

The player with a huge amount of talent will outperform the hard working, less talented player.  EVERY TIME.

And this is why you are not a D1 basketball coach.

[keefe]

There was a poster named "NoMoreBuycks".

Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh
Ho Chi Minh is gonna win!

[brewcity77]

For the love of God Brew - how can you tout a players production, or lack thereof and champion Derrick for minutes??  Again, play Derrick 16 minutes a game, in 3 different stints of 5 minutes of action - what kind of production do you think we'd be getting?  Hell when he plays 35+ minutes we typically get about 4 points and 2 assists.  Somehow, I imagine if Burton got 35 plus he'd achieve a good deal more than that, as well as triple Derrick's steals/block totals.

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

[MU B2002]

I'm not touting Derrick for minutes. I've said repeatedly that Deonte wasn't competing with Derrick for minutes. He was competing with Juan, Sandy, Duane, Jajuan, and to a lesser extent Steve.

Listen, I know you have a massive hate woody fear boner for Derrick, but not all things that you don't like are Derrick's fault. Maybe if these more talented guys worked as hard as Derrick they'd reach their potential. But apparently they don't (certainly not on gameday) so they come up short. Again, their lack of effort is not Derrick's fault.

Just like Deonte failing to beat Juan and Duane out for minutes isn't Derrick's fault.

FIFY