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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 43770 times)

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1325 on: October 09, 2019, 08:16:29 AM »
In several of the articles the ncaa recommended passage of bills....the member schools voted against the recommendation.  Just as in govt the POTUS or an agency can recommend a bill passed, but Congress (the members) don’t pass it.

I see references to NCAA councils and panels and committees recommending passage. I see no references to any members of the NCAA leadership team supporting what you claim and pushing member institutions to pass meaningful academic-fraud reform (or even not-so-meaningful reform).

And when one university president (Oregon's) came up with a viable plan that he felt his conference would get behind, it never even got close to a vote.

I’m asking the question.  For for academic fraud to happen, at least in some cases, the “educator” has to be a willing participant.  Inflating grades.  Passing a kid that shouldn’t be passed.  Etc.  There are, of course, other forms of academic fraud like having someone else write a paper, etc.

With this so called rampant academic fraud going on, why are the educators not standing tall?  Why are they not pushing back, blowing the whistle, going to the press anonymously (press has no problem not naming sources anymore), etc? 

Why is it being allowed in the first place by educators that such reforms need to be enacted? Where are the people of conscience at these universities educating these kids?  Does any culpability fall on them?

At North Carolina, the academic fraud was perpetrated by educators with the explicit endorsement of the athletic department and several of its teams. Coaches new exactly what they were doing, funneling their athletes into sham courses. That was proven over and over again.

Yes, I'd like to know where the "people of conscience" were, too. It would have been nice to see an institution without conscience punished for obvious lack of institutional oversight.
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jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1326 on: October 09, 2019, 09:00:03 AM »
There's a ridiculous amount of proxy arguments being made in here.

I'm out.

dgies9156

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1327 on: October 09, 2019, 09:17:20 AM »
Ok, let me try to add some finality to this debate.

Back in 1984, the Universities of Georgia and Oklahoma sued the NCAA on grounds that its monopolistic management of college football television contracts was illegal. This happened as the spectrum of television offerings increased dramatically. The result was a dramatic change in the way college football television rights were handled. I can now see Georgia and Oklahoma every weekend, if I want (yikes).

Same for paying athletes. A case like the O'Bannon case ultimately will rule in favor of the athletes and will end up in the Court of Appeals or at SCOTUS. The court will rule in favor of the athletes and the entire NCAA system as it now stands will collapse.

It's possible federal legislation also might do the trick but I would not hold my breath.

Don't expect the NCAA or its member institutions to act any sooner. They're doing the same thing we all would do under the same circumstances -- protecting their own interests and guarding a consistent cash flow stream.

Until then, in the words of the immortal Bob Howsam (he who put together the fabulous Big Red Machine in Cincinnati), make no change and make it retroactive!


79Warrior

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1328 on: October 09, 2019, 10:40:17 AM »
I’m asking the question.  For for academic fraud to happen, at least in some cases, the “educator” has to be a willing participant.  Inflating grades.  Passing a kid that shouldn’t be passed.  Etc.  There are, of course, other forms of academic fraud like having someone else write a paper, etc.

With this so called rampant academic fraud going on, why are the educators not standing tall?  Why are they not pushing back, blowing the whistle, going to the press anonymously (press has no problem not naming sources anymore), etc? 

Why is it being allowed in the first place by educators that such reforms need to be enacted? Where are the people of conscience at these universities educating these kids?  Does any culpability fall on them?

Did you ever take a journalism class? Since when has a reporter "named their source"?

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1329 on: October 09, 2019, 12:20:40 PM »
Ok, let me try to add some finality to this debate.

Back in 1984, the Universities of Georgia and Oklahoma sued the NCAA on grounds that its monopolistic management of college football television contracts was illegal. This happened as the spectrum of television offerings increased dramatically. The result was a dramatic change in the way college football television rights were handled. I can now see Georgia and Oklahoma every weekend, if I want (yikes).

Same for paying athletes. A case like the O'Bannon case ultimately will rule in favor of the athletes and will end up in the Court of Appeals or at SCOTUS. The court will rule in favor of the athletes and the entire NCAA system as it now stands will collapse.

It's possible federal legislation also might do the trick but I would not hold my breath.

Don't expect the NCAA or its member institutions to act any sooner. They're doing the same thing we all would do under the same circumstances -- protecting their own interests and guarding a consistent cash flow stream.

Until then, in the words of the immortal Bob Howsam (he who put together the fabulous Big Red Machine in Cincinnati), make no change and make it retroactive!

Agree with all of the above except the "same thing we all would do" part. Many times, I make decisions that I think will be good for the long-term but that aren't always the best short-term. I'm guessing the same is true of you. Heck, every time a person buys a house that needs work, he or she is foresaking near-term comfort for long-term benefit. Just one of many examples we both could think of.

On a bigger scale, many collective bargaining agreements make short-term concessions for long-term benefits, and it happens on both sides. Not much legislation does that, but it does happen sometimes. And corporations constantly face that battle; the best ones have a good balance of protecting short-term gains while also maximizing long-term results. Think utilities: Most of them still use coal, but that usage is declining every year while they build up their wind, solar and other infrastructure. I invest in NextEra Energy (among others), and it's been amazing to watch how they are building for the future when it would have been more expedient short-term to go all in on coal.

The NCAA could do the same. But I agree with you that they won't. They will fight tooth and nail to protect their self-interest now, and they very well could end up screwing themselves long-term. And it will be 100% their own fault.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1330 on: October 09, 2019, 12:25:59 PM »
Very telling.  Chris Mack, when he was at Xavier, was against the idea of paying players or NIL concept because he knew damn well what it would do to smaller schools.

Now, because he is at Louisville and a program that has had plenty of run-ins with unehtical behavior, he has "changed his tune."  Cannot make this up.  And this is just another reason why I don't like it, because he is exhibit A of what it was like to run a program that was quite good but not one of the "HAVES".  Now he is at a have, and he loves him some of this.  If that isn't an eyeopener for some of you and the potential impacts to a MU and many other smaller schools, I cannot help you.

Mack: "I've changed my perspective on the issue in recent years.  The money, the TV contracts, every conference has its own network now. I don't know what it looks like. I'm not an economist. ... But I am on the side that thinks student-athletes should be able to capitalize on their name, image and likeness."
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1331 on: October 09, 2019, 12:27:58 PM »
Cedric Dempsey (yes, go ahead and bash him....we know that's what you do), hopes the Supreme Court ultimately gets involved.  He also predicts lawsuits, as do I....but I know many of you think that won't happen.

THOUGHTS FROM THE PAST: Former NCAA President Cedric Dempsey believes that college athletes profiting off their name, image and likeness could bring an "apocalyptic shift for school sports." Dempsey said that U.S. Supreme Court intervention "may be the only hope for preserving the unique system that exists now." He said that California's NIL law is the "crest of a slippery slope." Dempsey "predicted a flurry of lawsuits that the high court will ultimately be called on to resolve." But he said that he "hopes justices will recognize the need to limit financial influence on student athletes." Dempsey: "One time, I said I thought Congress would be a part of that, but right now, I wouldn't want it in their hands. But I do think the Supreme Court will need to be involved" (FOXBUSINESS.com, 10/8).
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1332 on: October 09, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »
Does Cheeks recognize the irony of his two preceding posts?

dgies9156

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1333 on: October 09, 2019, 01:00:45 PM »

On a bigger scale, many collective bargaining agreements make short-term concessions for long-term benefits, and it happens on both sides. Not much legislation does that, but it does happen sometimes. And corporations constantly face that battle; the best ones have a good balance of protecting short-term gains while also maximizing long-term results. Think utilities: Most of them still use coal, but that usage is declining every year while they build up their wind, solar and other infrastructure. I invest in NextEra Energy (among others), and it's been amazing to watch how they are building for the future when it would have been more expedient short-term to go all in on coal.

Interesting thought but most utilities are not like the rest of corporate America.

Electric power usage is within a relevant range every year. And the profits utilities make are regulated by state public utilities commissions, which makes them income rather than growth investments. As to the conversion from coal, much has to do with fracking and the availability of plentiful, low cost natural gas. The capital cost of converting to natural gas is less on a present value basis than sticking with coal once the benefit of low-cost gas is factored into the equation.

I'm not sure that's a long-term philosophy. Those guys would produce power burning house pets if it would increase their share price.

As to the NCAA thinking long-term, why? There are no credible threats to their "amateur" sports monopoly. Consider:

1) The NCAA is the minor leagues for the NFL. Period. The NFL gets player development for basically free from the Power 5 conferences and to a far lesser degree, the rest of college football. You think for one minute those magnates at the NFL would dare push to change this model?

2) There are minor leagues in NBA basketball and to some degree, they work. If the NCAA went away, I could see the NBA Development Leagues replacing them. For now, though, the Development Leagues are the basketball equivalent of the practice squad in the NFL.  Could the NBA change? Of course, but it would cost the owners money. Keep in mind this is the same group that held up city after city for tax breaks and new arenas.

Paying players will happen but only if a court orders it or there is some other credible competitive threat to the NBA and NFL.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1334 on: October 09, 2019, 01:02:02 PM »
Did you ever take a journalism class? Since when has a reporter "named their source"?

If they want to be named, they can be named.

My point is allegedly there is this rampant cheating going on.  If true, why aren’t some people coming forward?  Go to the press, do it anonymously...press will protect them as sources.  Where are the people of conscience?  Students talk, so do student athletes...if someone is doing their papers for them, it will get out...hardworking students that have to do their own will be pissed.  Why aren’t we seeing “rampant” claims of cheating by reg students, professors / instructors, etc?

OR is the claim of rampant academic fraud and cheating an overstatement?


Believe me, I get that fraud occurs, plenty of examples over the years.  But when 5 examples come up at 5 schools, does that mean 350 schools are doing it?  But if it is happening, where are the people of conscience standing up against it?
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Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1335 on: October 09, 2019, 03:23:02 PM »

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1336 on: October 09, 2019, 03:42:56 PM »
Interesting thought but most utilities are not like the rest of corporate America.

Electric power usage is within a relevant range every year. And the profits utilities make are regulated by state public utilities commissions, which makes them income rather than growth investments. As to the conversion from coal, much has to do with fracking and the availability of plentiful, low cost natural gas. The capital cost of converting to natural gas is less on a present value basis than sticking with coal once the benefit of low-cost gas is factored into the equation.

I'm not sure that's a long-term philosophy. Those guys would produce power burning house pets if it would increase their share price.

As to the NCAA thinking long-term, why? There are no credible threats to their "amateur" sports monopoly. Consider:

1) The NCAA is the minor leagues for the NFL. Period. The NFL gets player development for basically free from the Power 5 conferences and to a far lesser degree, the rest of college football. You think for one minute those magnates at the NFL would dare push to change this model?

2) There are minor leagues in NBA basketball and to some degree, they work. If the NCAA went away, I could see the NBA Development Leagues replacing them. For now, though, the Development Leagues are the basketball equivalent of the practice squad in the NFL.  Could the NBA change? Of course, but it would cost the owners money. Keep in mind this is the same group that held up city after city for tax breaks and new arenas.

Paying players will happen but only if a court orders it or there is some other credible competitive threat to the NBA and NFL.

I just used utilities as an example. Corporations look to the future all the time. I'm no expert, but in doing the freelance financial writing I do, I read a lot of earnings reports, see a lot of investor presentations and consume a lot of financial news.

Otherwise, I don't disagree with what you say about the NCAA. They could be proactive on this issue, but I agree that they won't be.

Women's gymnast doesn't seem worried that NIL will cost her opportunities.


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sb-206-katelyn-ohashi-slams-ncaa-likeness-rules-california-fair-pay-act-160950573.html

Great read. Thanks for posting.

But she isn't a coach or an AD or an NCAA honcho, so her view doesn't "count" to many Scoopers.

The fact that 2/3 of all Americans believe college athletes should be allowed to profit off their own likenesses also doesn't count to many Scoopers, even the ones who love to cite polls as "proof" of stuff.



"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1337 on: October 09, 2019, 04:28:43 PM »
I just used utilities as an example. Corporations look to the future all the time. I'm no expert, but in doing the freelance financial writing I do, I read a lot of earnings reports, see a lot of investor presentations and consume a lot of financial news.

Otherwise, I don't disagree with what you say about the NCAA. They could be proactive on this issue, but I agree that they won't be.

Great read. Thanks for posting.

But she isn't a coach or an AD or an NCAA honcho, so her view doesn't "count" to many Scoopers.

The fact that 2/3 of all Americans believe college athletes should be allowed to profit off their own likenesses also doesn't count to many Scoopers, even the ones who love to cite polls as "proof" of stuff.


There are also those who "appeal to authority" as evidence for/against something. Unless that authority takes the opposite stance of the individual. Then that authority is wrong.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1338 on: October 09, 2019, 09:02:14 PM »
There are also those who "appeal to authority" as evidence for/against something. Unless that authority takes the opposite stance of the individual. Then that authority is wrong.

Like climate scientists, Nobel economists, former leaders, etc?  People do it all the times in all kinds of things.  Pretty natural.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1339 on: October 10, 2019, 01:17:45 PM »
Jay Wright talks about NIL:

https://twitter.com/evandaniels/status/1182333369516007424?s=21

Spoiler, he's for it. Says it was going to happen anyway, and the California law speeding the timeline is a good thing. Says in the future they need to get out ahead of these things.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1340 on: October 10, 2019, 01:47:59 PM »
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/10/09/college-recruiting-faces-seismic-change-if-ncaa-allows-endorsements/3908164002/

At least one person thinks this will benefit schools like Marquette:

Quote
In a free market-driven system like this, he said, prospects would get the money they deserve, and schools with passionate boosters willing to shell out funds could become larger players in recruiting.

In essence, boosters could put their money where their mouth is.

“In basketball, you only need one or two of those son of a guns,” Vaccaro said. “That would allow basketball to tighten up. The little school could beat the big school.”

In his sport, Plona could see name, image and likeness compensation helping schools without football, such as Marquette and Xavier. That allows boosters and local companies to focus their contributions on basketball.

“The Creightons of the world. The Wichita States of the world,” Plona said. “There could be some programs that really get some of those significant donors or boosters or owners of small companies around the area, and all of a sudden, the basketball kids could be their top guys.”

Please note I'm not submitting this as some sort of proof or fact. Just sharing an opinion I found that happened to mention us by name.
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The courage to change the things I can,
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1341 on: October 10, 2019, 02:56:18 PM »
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/10/09/college-recruiting-faces-seismic-change-if-ncaa-allows-endorsements/3908164002/

At least one person thinks this will benefit schools like Marquette:

Please note I'm not submitting this as some sort of proof or fact. Just sharing an opinion I found that happened to mention us by name.

No wonder Diamond Jim Delany is so against it. 
Bring Brian Wardle Home

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1342 on: October 10, 2019, 10:44:04 PM »
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/10/09/college-recruiting-faces-seismic-change-if-ncaa-allows-endorsements/3908164002/

At least one person thinks this will benefit schools like Marquette:

Please note I'm not submitting this as some sort of proof or fact. Just sharing an opinion I found that happened to mention us by name.

What strikes me as so naive is that the large schools will have many more of said boosters purely by volume...it’s a scale game as I have said from the start.  Sure, MU could have 1 or 2 of those people like he states, but a bigger school may have 10x that amount.  Not sure how this basic statistical output is eluding him.  Yes, it is possible that a smaller school can have an extremely rich booster more than other schools, but playing the distribution game here the larger schools with. MORE alumni are going to have more of these boosters.  Scale is king.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 06:58:36 PM by Cheeks »
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1343 on: October 13, 2019, 06:47:21 PM »
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1344 on: October 13, 2019, 07:03:32 PM »
Results of survey given to AD's on NIL, only 28% overall responded.

https://www.athleticdirectoru.com/articles/what-do-athletic-directors-think-about-name-image-and-likeness/

Have several friends in those positions.  They are in a tough spot based on what other programs in their conference want, in their state, etc.  The size of the programs matter.  A friend of mine is an AD at a non football school, and he has a very different take than another friend at a large P5 school.  The DI level is so vast in terms of types of schools, sports they field and their mission, but so many people want to apply a one size, fits all approach based on the tiny sliver of people impacted.  It is really a poor approach, and my friends that are ADs are universal on that one.  One size fits all is going to end poorly.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1345 on: October 20, 2019, 10:38:04 PM »
Isn't that a sad commentary? Much like the Ray Rice tape. It's only bad enough for a punishment or severe punishment when there's video? Horrible.

Remember when Al punched Bernard Toone at halftime.  In Al’s words...”very hard” after throwing him up against a wall.  What would have happened today if Al had done that?  Seriously?

Sometimes these things get way over played in my opinion.  And yes, I think it is b3cause we are softer than we used to be.  Al would have been highly scrutinized for what he did, though it did exactly what he was hoping for.  If memory serves, all involved came to understand what it was and people didn’t lose their jobs or collective minds because of it.  Thank God video wasn’t around then, or some of the outage of today, in my opinion.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1346 on: October 20, 2019, 10:41:40 PM »
What made you think to post this in a thread that died a week ago? Do you review dead threads to see if there are any posts you didn't argue with?
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The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1347 on: October 20, 2019, 10:52:00 PM »
What made you think to post this in a thread that died a week ago? Do you review dead threads to see if there are any posts you didn't argue with?

Do you ask this question of all people who do this, or only some?

If you must know the answer I am rereading a book on Al McGuire and it was covering this episode. One wonders in today’s world what the outcome of that would have been....or would it have 3ven happened because cameras are known to be in th3 locker room# now for the NCAA tournament. 

I’m old school TAMU.  That doesn’t mean I believe people can just run roughshod over others, but what Al did...honestly...I don’t have an issue with it.  I know today’s world, a healthy chunk would.  It’s just a different way of looking at the world. 
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1348 on: October 20, 2019, 11:11:59 PM »
Do you ask this question of all people who do this, or only some?

I ask it to every poster who has a history of bumping threads that have died, not because new information on the topic has come up but to respond to a month old post with information that was available at the time of the post.
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TSmith34

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1349 on: October 21, 2019, 02:28:24 PM »
Do you ask this question of all people who do this, or only some?

Victim, always
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