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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 44523 times)

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1300 on: October 08, 2019, 09:13:11 PM »
A lot of passion in this long diatribe of yours.

So to summarize ... in response to my question: "How will the change affect you in any way?" ... your answer is it will not.

Just as leaving it the same will not affect other Scoopers in any way, which was the question that you kept asking over and over. None of us are supposed to be affected by this change. Our college eligibility as athletes expired long ago.

Thanks for confirming that this change won't affect you or me or hoopaloop or wades or brewski or TAMU in any way. It doesn't have to affect us.

It's the right thing to do, and I like being on the right side of history.

So because you, sultan, and others THINK it's the right thing to do, that makes it...the right thing to do?? Interesting. There have been a lot of decisions made because people have thought "it was the right thing to do", and they couldn't have been more wrong. They can get paid for their likeness...but then lose their eligibility...because that's the right thing to do.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1301 on: October 08, 2019, 09:18:34 PM »
So because you, sultan, and others THINK it's the right thing to do, that makes it...the right thing to do?? Interesting. There have been a lot of decisions made because people have thought "it was the right thing to do", and they couldn't have been more wrong. They can get paid for their likeness...but then lose their eligibility...because that's the right thing to do.

What you think is the right thing to do materially hurts the athletes who give their all to their universities, the athletes who work 60-plus hours a week, the athletes who entertain you.

What I think is the right thing to do materially hurts absolutely nobody.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1302 on: October 08, 2019, 09:39:29 PM »
What you think is the right thing to do materially hurts the athletes who give their all to their universities, the athletes who work 60-plus hours a week, the athletes who entertain you.

What I think is the right thing to do materially hurts absolutely nobody.

It doesn't hurt them one iota..they would be compensated with NIL and a full ride scholarship. I think they'd be just fine. As a young adult, part of growing and learning is learning to make difficult decisions. This would be one of them...take the NIL compensation and keep your scholarship, or bypass it and be eligible for post season(and still keep your scholarship) That hurts no one. They are still getting compensated(more than they ever were before) for working 60+ hours a week, giving their all to the University etc. It comes down to making a choice...are you in college to play sports to be able to experience post season play, or are in you college as an athlete to profit off your name and likeness. It's a valuable life lesson.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1303 on: October 08, 2019, 10:11:57 PM »
It doesn't hurt them one iota..they would be compensated with NIL and a full ride scholarship. I think they'd be just fine. As a young adult, part of growing and learning is learning to make difficult decisions. This would be one of them...take the NIL compensation and keep your scholarship, or bypass it and be eligible for post season(and still keep your scholarship) That hurts no one. They are still getting compensated(more than they ever were before) for working 60+ hours a week, giving their all to the University etc. It comes down to making a choice...are you in college to play sports to be able to experience post season play, or are in you college as an athlete to profit off your name and likeness. It's a valuable life lesson.

It's very easy for you to be cavalier about a "life lesson" for others that, again, doesn't affect you one iota.

You are on the wrong side of history here. The change is going to happen whether you like it or not. While I think it will be for the better, you will shake your fist and grouse about it till you go to your grave. I'm guessing you hated the idea of Title IX giving opportunity to women athletes, too, and other major changes that happened over the decades.

I get it. Some people fear change.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1304 on: October 08, 2019, 10:32:05 PM »
It's very easy for you to be cavalier about a "life lesson" for others that, again, doesn't affect you one iota.

You are on the wrong side of history here. The change is going to happen whether you like it or not. While I think it will be for the better, you will shake your fist and grouse about it till you go to your grave. I'm guessing you hated the idea of Title IX giving opportunity to women athletes, too, and other major changes that happened over the decades.

I get it. Some people fear change.

The change is going to happen, I'm not disputing that..I'm just hopeful the change comes with athlete ineligibility as well. You can say it's for the better for awhile...UNTIL(and 100% it WILL happen), Universities start paying players directly. I'm astute enough to understand that is a LIKELY outcome eventually from all of this. To assume or outright dismiss that very strong likelihood, is being completely naive. It's going to happen, whether you want to believe it or not.

I 100% support NIL...with athlete ineligibility. If the NCAA goes that route and enforces it then you and everyone else will complain about that too ("the idiot" NCAA etc etc) NIL isn't good enough for all of you. Just stick it to the NCAA at all costs right?? That's all that matters. I'm no lawyer, but if/when the NCAA chooses to fight this, depending on the court that hears it, it's my opinion they have a very good chance of beating this. Not to mention, you may very well get other states filing lawsuits against California because of the undue harm it could cause Universities in their states.. I don't believe all 50 states will sign on to this. Wisconsin may be one of them that doesn't.

Heck you started a thread about them refusing to get involved with academic fraud. That PROVES you despise them to no end. Any way to attack them, you will. Regardless what any one that is for this says(you're a journalist so you're trained at being dishonest) at least PART of why you are in favor of this is because of your disdain for the NCAA. That is absolutely 100% factual. Not you or anyone else can say otherwise without it being a bold faced lie.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1305 on: October 08, 2019, 10:35:32 PM »
So 50 states will pass 50 laws, the federal government will pass a law, and 100% of schools will be ineligible?

The beauty of Scoop, I suppose, is there's no limit to the level of "dumbest thing ever" that can be posted here, but for now, that's certainly it.

forgetful

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1306 on: October 08, 2019, 10:38:13 PM »
What you think is the right thing to do materially hurts the athletes who give their all to their universities, the athletes who work 60-plus hours a week, the athletes who entertain you.

What I think is the right thing to do materially hurts absolutely nobody.

Honestly, if anyone wants to do right by the athletes, they should be advocating for their education, and not universities shuttling them to "low intensity" majors with poor job opportunities, so they can spend more time/effort on athletics and stay eligible.

Why doesn't anyone seem concerned about that?

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1307 on: October 08, 2019, 10:57:39 PM »
Honestly, if anyone wants to do right by the athletes, they should be advocating for their education, and not universities shuttling them to "low intensity" majors with poor job opportunities, so they can spend more time/effort on athletics and stay eligible.

Why doesn't anyone seem concerned about that?

Great question.  And why are all these educators letting it happen and supposedly making academic scandals rampant.  Interesting, indeed.
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TAMU Garcia

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1308 on: October 08, 2019, 10:58:59 PM »
The change is going to happen, I'm not disputing that..I'm just hopeful the change comes with athlete ineligibility as well. You can say it's for the better for awhile...UNTIL(and 100% it WILL happen), Universities start paying players directly. I'm astute enough to understand that is a LIKELY outcome eventually from all of this. To assume or outright dismiss that very strong likelihood, is being completely naive. It's going to happen, whether you want to believe it or not.

Why? You've said this a couple of times but have never explained how one leads to the other. I actually think it will have the opposite impact.
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jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1309 on: October 08, 2019, 11:54:25 PM »
Honestly, if anyone wants to do right by the athletes, they should be advocating for their education, and not universities shuttling them to "low intensity" majors with poor job opportunities, so they can spend more time/effort on athletics and stay eligible.

Why doesn't anyone seem concerned about that?

People appear to be. Hence the thread about the NCAA not dealing with academic fraud.

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1310 on: October 08, 2019, 11:55:00 PM »
Great question.  And why are all these educators letting it happen and supposedly making academic scandals rampant.  Interesting, indeed.

Just so I'm clear, you're putting "it" on the professors, TAs, etc?

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1311 on: October 09, 2019, 06:39:02 AM »
The change is going to happen, I'm not disputing that..I'm just hopeful the change comes with athlete ineligibility as well. You can say it's for the better for awhile...UNTIL(and 100% it WILL happen), Universities start paying players directly. I'm astute enough to understand that is a LIKELY outcome eventually from all of this. To assume or outright dismiss that very strong likelihood, is being completely naive. It's going to happen, whether you want to believe it or not.

I 100% support NIL...with athlete ineligibility. If the NCAA goes that route and enforces it then you and everyone else will complain about that too ("the idiot" NCAA etc etc) NIL isn't good enough for all of you. Just stick it to the NCAA at all costs right?? That's all that matters. I'm no lawyer, but if/when the NCAA chooses to fight this, depending on the court that hears it, it's my opinion they have a very good chance of beating this. Not to mention, you may very well get other states filing lawsuits against California because of the undue harm it could cause Universities in their states.. I don't believe all 50 states will sign on to this. Wisconsin may be one of them that doesn't.

Heck you started a thread about them refusing to get involved with academic fraud. That PROVES you despise them to no end. Any way to attack them, you will. Regardless what any one that is for this says(you're a journalist so you're trained at being dishonest) at least PART of why you are in favor of this is because of your disdain for the NCAA. That is absolutely 100% factual. Not you or anyone else can say otherwise without it being a bold faced lie.

It doesn't PROVE I "despise" them at all. I want them to walk the walk. They are good at talking the talk about educating student-athletes, but they refuse to do all they can to ensure the "student" part.

Two separate national panels, including one chaired by Rice, strongly recommended they work toward rooting out academic fraud. The Oregon president came up with a workable plan, one he believed Pac-12 schools would have agreed to. NCAA honchos rejected them all. They would rather stand their with their thumbs up their butts and proclaim, "Sorry, it's out of our jurisdiction, there's nothing we can do about it."

So I don't "despise" the NCAA; I just find them incompetent and hypocritical.

It would be like me saying, "guru doesn't want the athletes to profit off their likenesses without losing eligibility. He keeps saying it, so he obviously despises the athletes."

Again, you choose to take the side of materially and negatively affecting the athletes. I take the side of materially and negatively affecting nobody; it also happens to be the right side of history.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1312 on: October 09, 2019, 06:42:53 AM »
It doesn't PROVE I "despise" them at all. I want them to walk the walk. They are good at talking the talk about educating student-athletes, but they refuse to do all they can to ensure the "student" part.

Two separate national panels, including one chaired by Rice, strongly recommended they work toward rooting out academic fraud. The Oregon president came up with a workable plan, one he believed Pac-12 schools would have agreed to. NCAA honchos rejected them all. They would rather stand their with their thumbs up their butts and proclaim, "Sorry, it's out of our jurisdiction, there's nothing we can do about it."

So I don't "despise" the NCAA; I just find them incompetent and hypocritical.

It would be like me saying, "guru doesn't want the athletes to profit off their likenesses without losing eligibility. He keeps saying it, so he obviously despises the athletes."

Again, you choose to take the side of materially and negatively affecting the athletes. I take the side of materially and negatively affecting nobody; it also happens to be the right side of history.

The ncaa honchos?  No, the ncaa recommended it pass, but the member schools rejected it.  It would have been nice if the journalist stated which schools, what the vote count was, and why it failed in committee.

”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1313 on: October 09, 2019, 06:50:45 AM »
The ncaa honchos?  No, the ncaa recommended it pass, but the member schools rejected it.  It would have been nice if the journalist stated which schools, what the vote count was, and why it failed in committee.

You have claimed this multiple times.

Serious request: Can you please show me evidence that NCAA leaders recommended that the association take over jurisdiction to weed out academic fraud and mete out harsh penalties to rule-breakers? I am not saying you're wrong; I simply must have missed that in my reading.

Thanks.
"Philanthropy is commendable, but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary."

-- Martin Luther King Jr.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1314 on: October 09, 2019, 06:56:06 AM »
The ncaa honchos?  No, the ncaa recommended it pass, but the member schools rejected it.  It would have been nice if the journalist stated which schools, what the vote count was, and why it failed in committee.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article235794402.html

He can’t list the schools because there is no written record of how schools and conferences “voted”.  Amazingly convenient. 

Just shows concern about athletes education is a myth
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1315 on: October 09, 2019, 07:03:44 AM »
Just so I'm clear, you're putting "it" on the professors, TAs, etc?

I’m asking the question.  For for academic fraud to happen, at least in some cases, the “educator” has to be a willing participant.  Inflating grades.  Passing a kid that shouldn’t be passed.  Etc.  There are, of course, other forms of academic fraud like having someone else write a paper, etc.

With this so called rampant academic fraud going on, why are the educators not standing tall?  Why are they not pushing back, blowing the whistle, going to the press anonymously (press has no problem not naming sources anymore), etc? 

Why is it being allowed in the first place by educators that such reforms need to be enacted? Where are the people of conscience at these universities educating these kids?  Does any culpability fall on them?
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1316 on: October 09, 2019, 07:12:16 AM »
So 50 states will pass 50 laws, the federal government will pass a law, and 100% of schools will be ineligible?

The beauty of Scoop, I suppose, is there's no limit to the level of "dumbest thing ever" that can be posted here, but for now, that's certainly it.

Actually Brew, you making a HUGE assumption that all 50 states and the Federal govt will pass a law like this is probably the dumbest thing ever. You have ZERO way of knowing that for certain. Besides, in order for it to become Federal law the President needs to sign it, I'm not sure that would happen.  ;)
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1317 on: October 09, 2019, 07:12:39 AM »
I’m asking the question.  For for academic fraud to happen, at least in some cases, the “educator” has to be a willing participant.  Inflating grades.  Passing a kid that shouldn’t be passed.  Etc.  There are, of course, other forms of academic fraud like having someone else write a paper, etc.

With this so called rampant academic fraud going on, why are the educators not standing tall?  Why are they not pushing back, blowing the whistle, going to the press anonymously (press has no problem not naming sources anymore), etc? 

Why is it being allowed in the first place by educators that such reforms need to be enacted? Where are the people of conscience at these universities educating these kids?  Does any culpability fall on them?


You know why educaors don't stand tall?  Look what happened to Mary Willingham at UNC.
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Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1318 on: October 09, 2019, 07:13:10 AM »
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article235794402.html

He can’t list the schools because there is no written record of how schools and conferences “voted”.  Amazingly convenient. 

Just shows concern about athletes education is a myth

That’s not entirely  what the reporter said.  More importantly, since when has that stopped reporters from digging in to get the “truth”?  The reporter says forms from 28 of 32 conferences were returned but not published...those forms exist.  Get the conferences on the record...be a journalist.  If they decline, they decline.  Reporter giving up too early on this one especially knowing the forms exist.

Another blanket wrong statement by you.  The amount of money spent by the ncaa to further the academic aspects of students is considerable in both grant money, resources, etc.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1319 on: October 09, 2019, 07:15:54 AM »
You have claimed this multiple times.

Serious request: Can you please show me evidence that NCAA leaders recommended that the association take over jurisdiction to weed out academic fraud and mete out harsh penalties to rule-breakers? I am not saying you're wrong; I simply must have missed that in my reading.

Thanks.

In several of the articles the ncaa recommended passage of bills....the member schools voted against the recommendation.  Just as in govt the POTUS or an agency can recommend a bill passed, but Congress (the members) don’t pass it. 
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1320 on: October 09, 2019, 07:25:27 AM »
Actually Brew, you making a HUGE assumption that all 50 states and the Federal govt will pass a law like this is probably the dumbest thing ever. You have ZERO way of knowing that for certain. Besides, in order for it to become Federal law the President needs to sign it, I'm not sure that would happen.  ;)

This is a political no-brainer. That's why legislation is going through currently in Florida, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, South Carolina, Colorado, Illinois, Kentucky, and Nevada. That's why Republicans are pushing it at the national level, including House Republicans from Ohio and North Carolina.

This received 100% support in California. Yes, it's a blue state, but there are plenty on both sides that voted for it. And it will go through on a bipartisan basis everywhere it's proposed because voters on both sides support it by vast margins. It plays well with both bases.

Also, because it will go forward on a federal and state level, it kills the only NCAA defense of "interstate commerce." As I said when the NCAA issued their concession statement. This is done. It's coming. And sooner than they expect...the Florida bill is set to take effect next summer.

And yes, the idea of the NCAA making all the schools in multiple states ineligible, 91 schools just based on the list above and California, over 25% of their membership, is peak Scoop stupid.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1321 on: October 09, 2019, 07:29:58 AM »
That’s not entirely  what the reporter said.  More importantly, since when has that stopped reporters from digging in to get the “truth”?  The reporter says forms from 28 of 32 conferences were returned but not published...those forms exist.  Get the conferences on the record...be a journalist.  If they decline, they decline.  Reporter giving up too early on this one especially knowing the forms exist.

Another blanket wrong statement by you.  The amount of money spent by the ncaa to further the academic aspects of students is considerable in both grant money, resources, etc.

You asked MU82 to who voted and how they voted.  You don’t know and he doesn’t know because the NCAA committee chose not to put in writing.

Good for the NCAA providing academic assistance.  They’re a higher learning entity despite protestations of some
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lawdog77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1322 on: October 09, 2019, 07:36:50 AM »
This is a political no-brainer. That's why legislation is going through currently in Florida, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, South Carolina, Colorado, Illinois, Kentucky, and Nevada. That's why Republicans are pushing it at the national level, including House Republicans from Ohio and North Carolina.

This received 100% support in California. Yes, it's a blue state, but there are plenty on both sides that voted for it. And it will go through on a bipartisan basis everywhere it's proposed because voters on both sides support it by vast margins. It plays well with both bases.

Also, because it will go forward on a federal and state level, it kills the only NCAA defense of "interstate commerce." As I said when the NCAA issued their concession statement. This is done. It's coming. And sooner than they expect...the Florida bill is set to take effect next summer.

And yes, the idea of the NCAA making all the schools in multiple states ineligible, 91 schools just based on the list above and California, over 25% of their membership, is peak Scoop stupid.
Do you think the agents will agree to the NCAA's request for certification now, once these NIL laws pass?

muguru

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1323 on: October 09, 2019, 07:57:32 AM »
This is a political no-brainer. That's why legislation is going through currently in Florida, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, South Carolina, Colorado, Illinois, Kentucky, and Nevada. That's why Republicans are pushing it at the national level, including House Republicans from Ohio and North Carolina.

This received 100% support in California. Yes, it's a blue state, but there are plenty on both sides that voted for it. And it will go through on a bipartisan basis everywhere it's proposed because voters on both sides support it by vast margins. It plays well with both bases.

Also, because it will go forward on a federal and state level, it kills the only NCAA defense of "interstate commerce." As I said when the NCAA issued their concession statement. This is done. It's coming. And sooner than they expect...the Florida bill is set to take effect next summer.

And yes, the idea of the NCAA making all the schools in multiple states ineligible, 91 schools just based on the list above and California, over 25% of their membership, is peak Scoop stupid.

Never said they would make all the schools ineligible...just the athletes that get compensated for NIL. IF, as everyone states it will only effect the top 1%, that shouldn't be a problem, there will still plenty of players for teams to participate in post season.

Maybe you don't follow politics close enough, but there are plenty of big power brokers at some of these state schools that can pressure their govt to NOT pass it. To think that won't happen in some instances is not understanding how these things work.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

mu03eng

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #1324 on: October 09, 2019, 08:07:35 AM »
Actually Brew, you making a HUGE assumption that all 50 states and the Federal govt will pass a law like this is probably the dumbest thing ever. You have ZERO way of knowing that for certain. Besides, in order for it to become Federal law the President needs to sign it, I'm not sure that would happen.  ;)

His assumption is no different then yours in saying this "absolutely will lead to schools paying players"

And the president doesn't have to sign a law to impact the NCAA, the federal government just has to find that the NCAA violated antitrust laws.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."