Things I Don't "Get"

[MUfan12]

ABI moved to 8 wks 2 years ago and it's kept a lot of people. It's becoming a more essential part of a package to recruit with.

It definitely is. I interviewed and was offered a role with another company a few months prior to my daughter's arrival last year. Slight bump in comp, but they had no parental leave policy. My current company doesn't have a great one, but being able to take those few weeks was ultimately the deciding factor.

[jficke13]

Agreed.

If it actually was a main reason why you chose to work for your company, then the benefit had its desired effect.

Friends of ours recently had a child, the husband works for Tesla and gets something like 8 weeks paid and is able to split it up into a couple chunks. So he's staying home a bit to help right away, and then going to take the rest of his time after his wife returns to work. I think that's a heckuva benefit and I wouldn't have minded one bit if I had gotten it.

My daughter was born on 7/1, I went back to work on 7/11 and thought 'dang my employer is being pretty generous.' I have other friends where dad went back to work the day after they got home from the hospital. Just goes to show the spread on what is 'acceptable' on this front.

[Coleman]

Except it is also causing enormous strain in some areas and other employees in some cases.  One of our departments currently has 1/2 of their 16 member team out for maternity / paternity.  The 8 folks remaining are so slammed that one resigned earlier this week.  There’s always the other side of the coin and unintended consequences.  People trying to be supportive of their colleagues, but also knowing how effected they are.  The older employees who never got that kind of time off, you can bet there is some resentment...you can hear it in their remarks.

That is just a lack of planning and poor management. I have been making arrangements with teammates for 5+ months. Everyone is incredibly supportive and excited for me. I have heard zero resentment, and the majority of my coworkers are in their 40s and 50s. I am splitting it up into 4 weeks right away and another 4 weeks after my wife goes back to work next summer. I have committed to checking in on email every day or two and calling in to our weekly team meeting. I think that is a fair compromise.

People take leave all the time. My boss was out for 6 weeks after back surgery. Another woman had breast cancer and was intermittently out for weeks at a time during heavy chemo sessions for years. Someone else needed 3 weeks to grieve after losing a spouse. Life happens. If management can't adapt, that is on them.

And MU82, it was absolutely one of the major reasons I came here, along with total compensation. We are just starting a family. I was determined to find a job that would let me be the kind of dad I want to be.

[lawdog77]

Except it is also causing enormous strain in some areas and other employees in some cases.  One of our departments currently has 1/2 of their 16 member team out for maternity / paternity.  The 8 folks remaining are so slammed that one resigned earlier this week.  There’s always the other side of the coin and unintended consequences.  People trying to be supportive of their colleagues, but also knowing how effected they are.  The older employees who never got that kind of time off, you can bet there is some resentment...you can hear it in their remarks.

Must have been one hell of a company party 9 months ago

[tower912]

I find that employees frequently take their cues from their boss and the culture that person created.

[Coleman]

I find that employees frequently take their cues from their boss and the culture that person created.

You're 100% right. My boss is a huge reason this policy is working so well for our team.

[MU82]

That is just a lack of planning and poor management. I have been making arrangements with teammates for 5+ months. Everyone is incredibly supportive and excited for me. I have heard zero resentment, and the majority of my coworkers are in their 40s and 50s. I am splitting it up into 4 weeks right away and another 4 weeks after my wife goes back to work next summer.

People take leave all the time. My boss was out for 6 weeks after back surgery. Another woman had breast cancer and was intermittently out for weeks at a time during heavy chemo sessions for years. Someone else needed 3 weeks to grieve after losing a spouse. Life happens. If management can't adapt, that is on them.

And MU82, it was absolutely one of the major reasons I came here, along with total compensation. We are just starting a family. I was determined to find a job that would let me be the kind of dad I want to be.

First, congrats on the family. Companies offer benefits to recruit employees. It sounds like your company thought it out carefully, decided to offer this benefit, and it helped them land a great employee like you! Win-win-win.

Otherwise, you make many outstanding points. Well-run companies can handle all kinds of situations that crop up.

And as somebody else said, if you don't like that companies offer paternity leave, hasta la bye-bye. Go work for Caveman Inc.

[jesmu84]

Except it is also causing enormous strain in some areas and other employees in some cases.  One of our departments currently has 1/2 of their 16 member team out for maternity / paternity.  The 8 folks remaining are so slammed that one resigned earlier this week.  There’s always the other side of the coin and unintended consequences.  People trying to be supportive of their colleagues, but also knowing how effected they are.  The older employees who never got that kind of time off, you can bet there is some resentment...you can hear it in their remarks.

Typical Boomer selfishness

[Coleman]

First, congrats on the family. Companies offer benefits to recruit employees. It sounds like your company thought it out carefully, decided to offer this benefit, and it helped them land a great employee like you! Win-win-win.

Otherwise, you make many outstanding points. Well-run companies can handle all kinds of situations that crop up.

And as somebody else said, if you don't like that companies offer paternity leave, hasta la bye-bye. Go work for Caveman Inc.

Thanks! It is our first. All of the MU onesies are ready to go!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I find that employees frequently take their cues from their boss and the culture that person created.

Exactly.  My God the sky is falling attitude and the slippery slope arguments are terrible.  I have half of one of my departments who are going to be out for about four weeks in January due to parental leave.  We are planning for it, but most definitely we are celebrating each and every one of those births.  (For all but one it's a first child.)  One of these employees I hired less than a year ago, and have I ever had regrets because she is going to be taking eight weeks of leave?  Not a chance.

I once promoted someone who told me in the next breath that she was pregnant.  Didn't change a thing.  She went on leave for awhile, allowed her to work a flexible schedule from home for awhile, and it worked out great.

Any business that worries about this sort of stuff at the expense of the long term benefit of the employee, the family and the organization, is probably not a very good business.

[MU82]

the sky is falling attitude and the slippery slope arguments are terrible. 

During my years as a Scooper, I have found that the vast majority of Chicken Littling and slippery sloping has turned out to be completely unjustified.

I remember a discussion years ago about the terrible things that were going to happen because Seattle was raising its minimum wage.

Wrong!

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/7/13/20690266/seattle-minimum-wage-15-dollars

Just one example.

Teeth-gnashing over the grad-transfer rule has been another. The vast, vast majority of movement has been of athletes moving down a level to get more playing time.

The NIL stuff surely will turn out to be another, as college sports will do just fine -- probably even thrive more than now -- if athlete/students are allowed to profit off their own likenesses, as every other college student can.

[Benny B]

Except it is also causing enormous strain in some areas and other employees in some cases.  One of our departments currently has 1/2 of their 16 member team out for maternity / paternity.  The 8 folks remaining are so slammed that one resigned earlier this week.  There’s always the other side of the coin and unintended consequences.  People trying to be supportive of their colleagues, but also knowing how effected they are.  The older employees who never got that kind of time off, you can bet there is some resentment...you can hear it in their remarks.

Dumb.

In the US, you are an at-will employee, i.e., any employee is free to leave the company at any time for any reason whatsoever.

Therefore, you're saying that having an employee leave abruptly for another job is preferable to having 7-9 months to plan how to bridge the gap for 2-4 months. 

Frankly, I think that companies who take that kind of approach deserve to fail.

[warriorchick]

Dumb.

In the US, you are an at-will employee, i.e., any employee is free to leave the company at any time for any reason whatsoever.

This is pretty much true in any country where slavery is illegal.

[Coleman]

This is pretty much true in any country where slavery is illegal.

Many countries use employment contracts which have limitations on how and when an employee is able to leave. In return, they have greater job security than in the United States, and better severance benefits if they are terminated. It is a double edged sword and I like our system better, but not everyone has a system like ours. These contracts are entered into freely. It is definitely not slavery.

[Chili]

Many countries use employment contracts which have limitations on how and when an employee is able to leave. In return, they have greater job security than in the United States, and better severance benefits if they are terminated. It is a double edged sword and I like our system better, but not everyone has a system like ours. These contracts are entered into freely. It is definitely not slavery.

Yup. Most of my european friends all work on contracts and are not at will employees free to leave at any time. They have to wait for the contract to be up.

[warriorchick]

Yup. Most of my european friends all work on contracts and are not at will employees free to leave at any time. They have to wait for the contract to be up.

Or else what?

[Chili]

Or else what?

They give notice. Negotiate leave date. An example is my friend Robert who had to wait 6mo after the half year before he could leave his position. However, they will often let the employee go before the full term of the negotiation.

Also, people in other countries respect rules and agreements like my friend Robert who is German.

[StillAWarrior]

They give notice. Negotiate leave date. An example is my friend Robert who had to wait 6mo after the half year before he could leave his position. However, they will often let the employee go before the full term of the negotiation.

Also, people in other countries respect rules and agreements like my friend Robert who is German.

I'm not being argumentative, but I'm really curious about the answer to Chick's question:  "Or else what?"  What would be the consequence if someone just quit without giving notice?

[Chili]

I'm not being argumentative, but I'm really curious about the answer to Chick's question:  "Or else what?"  What would be the consequence if someone just quit without giving notice?

It's just not done. Cultural difference. You ever try and get a German to walk against a "Don't Walk" sign? It's like pulling teeth. Or see a German pass on the right? No way. No everyone thinks like America thankfully.

[Coleman]

Contracts are legally binding documents. Much like a non-compete. Big companies have a deep bench of lawyers and will take legal action if a worker tries to reneg on a signed agreement. That is why workers often comply. Employment law is very complex in Europe.

[StillAWarrior]

It's just not done. Cultural difference. You ever try and get a German to walk against a "Don't Walk" sign? It's like pulling teeth. Or see a German pass on the right? No way. No everyone thinks like America thankfully.

Contracts are legally binding documents. Much like a non-compete. Big companies have a deep bench of lawyers and will take legal action if a worker tries to reneg on a signed agreement. That is why workers often comply. Employment law is very complex in Europe.

Hypothetically speaking, what would happen if an American got a job in Germany and quit?  Obviously, no German would ever do such a thing.  But if some American did it, what would happen?  I understand the binding nature of employment contracts and all that.  What I'm asking -- and nobody seems willing (or able) to answer -- is what do these employment contracts say will happen if someone quits?  When that deep bench of lawyers takes legal action, what are they asking the court/tribunal to do?

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I've been an employment lawyer for nearly 25 years.  I'm not familiar with how this works in Europe and I'm genuinely curious.

[buckchuckler]

It's just not done. Cultural difference. You ever try and get a German to walk against a "Don't Walk" sign? It's like pulling teeth. Or see a German pass on the right? No way. No everyone thinks like America thankfully.

Yeah, if only.more people thought like Germans.

[Coleman]

Hypothetically speaking, what would happen if an American got a job in Germany and quit?  Obviously, no German would ever do such a thing.  But if some American did it, what would happen?  I understand the binding nature of employment contracts and all that.  What I'm asking -- and nobody seems willing (or able) to answer -- is what do these employment contracts say will happen if someone quits?  When that deep bench of lawyers takes legal action, what are they asking the court/tribunal to do?

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I've been an employment lawyer for nearly 25 years.  I'm not familiar with how this works in Europe and I'm genuinely curious.

IANAL, But my assumption would be to sue for breach of contract

[StillAWarrior]

IANAL, But my assumption would be to sue for breach of contract

Thanks for the response.  That just leads back to my question:  what are they asking for when they sue.

I did some very quick research, and it looks essentially like these are set up similarly to non-compete agreements in the U.S.  Based on what I saw, people are absolutely free to quit (and, shockingly, they do sometimes -- even in Germany, if you can believe it), but they can then be restricted from getting other employment for a period of time.  It looks like 3-6 months is fairly typical.  More in some cases.  I'm not sure if the employers can sue for damages or just to enforce the agreements.  I'd be curious to know how broadly this could be enforced (i.e., just in Germany or throughout the EU).  But, people can and do quit.  They just can't work for a while after they do.

Disclaimer:  this was really quick and dirty research.  I'd still be interested to hear from others who might have more first-hand knowledge.

[Chili]

Yeah, if only.more people thought like Germans.

It would make driving 100% safer that's for sure. People actually following the rules of the road rather than thinking the world revolves around me - novel concept.