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Author Topic: Recruiting as of 3/15/24  (Read 8338217 times)

Newsdreams

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18525 on: June 26, 2019, 08:31:17 PM »
Yes, absolutely it probably was that way. Maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm saying..To simplify, why even bother offering your low tier recruits now?? You can get kids late all the time. I'm saying focus your attention(not just offering, but visiting, seeing them, in homes etc on campus visits etc) with your upper & Middle tier recruits now until you are eliminated. An example...let's say they have 20-25 offers out there (Not counting the lower tier recruits)  which is probably accurate. You have 4 open spots...so in other words, you have 25 chances to get 4 of them to commit...that's it..4(and maybe even less then that if you don't fill them all right away).

Honestly...if you can't hit 4 times out of 25 chances...there is something SERIOUSLY wrong IMO. So my point is..to me, you should NEVER get that far down your list for it to matter anyway...if it does..you have a big time problem. So why even bother offering?? I mean sure there's future implications, maybe offering a kid now gets you in the door for a future recruit..but you worry about that when the time comes.

The 2020 class is incredibly important, not only for it possibly determining the direction of the program the next few years, but for Wojo's job potentially. Does he really want to stake it on a few 200 ranked kids that he THINKS he can develop??

It's like Ted Thompson's "draft and develop" philosophy. It sounded great in theory and every once in awhile it worked, but more often then not it didn't and then the team was in trouble.
LOL calm down. Coaching staff know what they're doing. People here not just you Guru using then instead of than!!
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18526 on: June 26, 2019, 08:49:01 PM »
To me it should be 1-50 are 5 stars, 51-100 are 4 stars, and 101 and below are 3 stars and below. Makes a lot more sense to me.

Basketball recruits, like most things, are on a bell curve. Typically, there's a lot bigger difference between #1 and #26 than there is between #26 and #120.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18527 on: June 26, 2019, 08:57:27 PM »
So let's use this hypothetical...you have the 20-25 offers out(as an example) 15 of them are top 120 kids, or, we can even stretch that to top 150..10 of them are to kids 200 or lower, who don't really have any high major offers except yours. What happens if say, 3 of them accept because you are their best offer, now you are down to one scholarship and all of a sudden 3 of your top 10 wanted to commit, and now you don't have the scholarships available, you can only take 1.

A player can't just take a spot without consulting the coaching staff. If a player that's not near the top of their big board says they want to commit, the coaching staff can and will tell them that they can't if they want to hold those spots for other players.

And again, we've offered two players outside the top 120 this spring. One of whom is teammates with a 5-star that we are recruiting. Both of whom have raised in the rankings recently and seem to be trending up. You seem to be under the impression that we've all of the sudden offered a bunch of 3-star players.
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brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18528 on: June 26, 2019, 09:07:43 PM »
I just can't get that worked up about rankings because they are so often wrong. What was it, 10 first round picks were outside the top-150 coming out of high school? That means a lot of sub-150 players that turned out better than top-50s.

When it comes to recruiting, you have to trust your staff to evaluate the players. Honestly, I hope they never look at recruiting rankings. If they watch Hawkins or Agbo and think "that's a player we can develop into a stud" then offer and try to land them.

Saying top-100, or top-120, or top-150, or whatever is meaningless. That's saying it's better to get top-30 busts like Nick Richards or Quade Green than sub-150 studs like Jarrett Culver or Ja Morant.

The staff should get the players they evaluate as the best they can both land & develop. Rankings are fun, but ultimately just don't mean that much, especially when you aren't recruiting like Duke or Kentucky.
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muguru

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18529 on: June 26, 2019, 09:24:41 PM »
I just can't get that worked up about rankings because they are so often wrong. What was it, 10 first round picks were outside the top-150 coming out of high school? That means a lot of sub-150 players that turned out better than top-50s.

When it comes to recruiting, you have to trust your staff to evaluate the players. Honestly, I hope they never look at recruiting rankings. If they watch Hawkins or Agbo and think "that's a player we can develop into a stud" then offer and try to land them.

Saying top-100, or top-120, or top-150, or whatever is meaningless. That's saying it's better to get top-30 busts like Nick Richards or Quade Green than sub-150 studs like Jarrett Culver or Ja Morant.

The staff should get the players they evaluate as the best they can both land & develop. Rankings are fun, but ultimately just don't mean that much, especially when you aren't recruiting like Duke or Kentucky.

I don't disagree with you...but that's the danger in it, exactly what you said...developing them. Not because the kid can't be developed, but what if you as a Coach can't develop him the way you thought you could?? What if you just aren't that skilled at developing players. Some Coaches aren't. You can't live like that, you just can't...it's asking for trouble. And yes, you're right, rankings don't mean a lot. And without looking at any data(if it even exists), I'd be willing to bet that the bust rate is significantly higher with recruits that were originally ranked 150 and below, then it is with guys that were ranked top 100 and above. Again, that's not to say top 100's can't bust, they do and they will. But not as often I'm guessing.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18530 on: June 26, 2019, 09:42:51 PM »
I don't disagree with you...but that's the danger in it, exactly what you said...developing them. Not because the kid can't be developed, but what if you as a Coach can't develop him the way you thought you could?? What if you just aren't that skilled at developing players. Some Coaches aren't. You can't live like that, you just can't...it's asking for trouble. And yes, you're right, rankings don't mean a lot. And without looking at any data(if it even exists), I'd be willing to bet that the bust rate is significantly higher with recruits that were originally ranked 150 and below, then it is with guys that were ranked top 100 and above. Again, that's not to say top 100's can't bust, they do and they will. But not as often I'm guessing.

IIRC, there's a high correlation for players rated top 15 and after that it's a bit of a crapshoot
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brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18531 on: June 26, 2019, 09:43:38 PM »
I don't disagree with you...but that's the danger in it, exactly what you said...developing them.

We aren't getting Duke recruiting classes. Either the coach develops players, or he eventually gets fired.

So far, Anim & John are developmental wins. Carter & Cheatham, maybe not so much. I can live with misses as long as they don't tie up scholarships too long. You'll never have everyone play. Keep the guys that can.
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MU82

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18532 on: June 26, 2019, 09:52:39 PM »
I am quite satisfied with the recruiting efforts, strategies and results of our coaching staff ... even if they've somehow had to get by without the help of Scoopers (present company included).
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muguru

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18533 on: June 26, 2019, 10:01:11 PM »
We aren't getting Duke recruiting classes. Either the coach develops players, or he eventually gets fired.

So far, Anim & John are developmental wins. Carter & Cheatham, maybe not so much. I can live with misses as long as they don't tie up scholarships too long. You'll never have everyone play. Keep the guys that can.

I mean, I guess I can see where some could consider those developmental wins. I'm not saying/expecting you have to develop guys into All Americans or even all conference players..But for me, even though I have seen some good things offensively from Sacar, especially considering where he was as a Freshman, but he's still way too inconsistent for my liking. Some games he's incredible, other games, he disappears to the point you don't even know he's on the floor for an entire game. He also is a terrible FT shooter and has trouble finishing at the rim consistently. He gets there, that's good, but he HAS to finish.

As far as Theo goes..dominant defender WHEN he is on the floor and not in foul trouble, which as we all know is too often. Another terrible FT shooter as well. My issue with Theo(and maybe he will get there) is offensively. I just like my post guys to be offensive threats as well. he just isn't...yet. He has no jump shot really to speak of. He doesn't have to average 10-12 points a game(but if he did, it's hard saying how far MU could go), but it sure would be nice if he had a good enough, and polished enough offensive game, to be a legitimate threat down there. If he could become Robert Jackson or Davante Gardner..my oh my.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 10:03:08 PM by muguru »
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

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Cheeks

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18534 on: June 26, 2019, 10:17:29 PM »
3* small forward, ranked 190th by 247.

Meaningless like most recruiting rankings and preseason team rankings.  Unless a kid is top 25ish and a “can’t” miss, mostly meaningless. 
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Herman Cain

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18535 on: June 26, 2019, 11:03:46 PM »
I wanted to be sure to answer your question...this is my take on it, and not necessarily as it pertains to Ogbo, but MU's recruiting...They have what?? Probably 20-25 offers out. But let's say it's 15. You have 4 to give(doesn't mean you will fill them all right away in the early signing period), but MY preference would be that they narrow that down to their top 10 or so, and put HEAVY focus on them to start with...remember, you'd be talking 10 possibilities for 4 spots total. As that list dwindles, you move on to your next 5-10. To be honest, there really is no reason, if you focus in on who YOU(the Coaches) think are your top 10 gettable prospects, you shouldn't be able to get at least 2 of those to commit. That would be 20% of your top 10, and only 2 of your 4 scholarships.

Personally i would limit that to ONLY top 120(your first 10). Of course rankings don't tell the whole story, but I'd say typically speaking, the higher up the list you go, the LESS chance you have for a bust factor, the lower you go, the higher, though of course nothing is guaranteed.

Point being, as prospects dwindle, THEN I would start offering lower ranked kids...for the simple fact that, you can get those type of kids, or find them uncommitted at almost anytime in the process.

So let's use this hypothetical...you have the 20-25 offers out(as an example) 15 of them are top 120 kids, or, we can even stretch that to top 150..10 of them are to kids 200 or lower, who don't really have any high major offers except yours. What happens if say, 3 of them accept because you are their best offer, now you are down to one scholarship and all of a sudden 3 of your top 10 wanted to commit, and now you don't have the scholarships available, you can only take 1.

Yes, you NEVER stop recruiting obviously, but..until you are certain you will NOT be getting your true top targets, why make offers to kids like that?? That's not to say he couldn't turn out great, but if you were a betting man, who would be the better college player...Dawson Garcia, or Ogbo?? Jalen Suggs or Coleman Hawkins?? Again, there are no guarantees, but the smart money would be on Suggs and Garcia being the better college players, agreed??

That's why if one wanted to speculate, you COULD come to the conclusion that with these later offers they have been making, that they know or have a good idea they aren't getting their top targets. It could also mean nothing like that. But doesn't it at the very least give you a little pause??

Just my personal preference and thoughts
Guru-
Our family experience with recruiting spread over 3 kids was that coaches would start out looking at about 600 kids. Work their way down to 120 they really thought made sense and start closely evaluating and recruiting in a broad sense . Then Got that number to 60 for unofficials that they would actively “recruit” in a more granular  sense of the word and then make selective actionable offers to get to 15 kids to hard commit. They would then fill in the rest of the recruiting class as the results of other schools recruiting efforts materialized.

There is a lot of filtering and jockeying that goes on. It is like making sausage process is ugly but if done right finished product is great.

As much as I distrust Wojo on many matters regarding our program , I do trust his recruiting process methods. As said before to up the quality of recruits we need to up our actual performance on the court.

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Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18536 on: June 26, 2019, 11:48:36 PM »
Thanks for responding Guru.  I'll add my two cents.

1.  I don't get too worked up about offers.  Most are conditional offers.  It's basically the way a school tells an athlete "We want to recruit you."

2.  Many offers go nowhere, so coaches look for more players to recruit and more offers are made.  How many offers are made does not necessarily equal the number of active recruitments.

3.  General rule of thumb, I think a school needs to recruit 5 players for every 1 scholarship opening.   With 5 open, Marquette should be recruiting about 25 kids at any one time.   The two previous years had fewer scholarships open so the recruiting focus was more narrow.

4.  Wojo delegates most of the recruiting work to the assistants, as opposed to the more hands on style of Crean and Buzz.  That means each assistant has about 8 recruits to focus on right now. Sometimes 2 assistants share a key recruit.  Wojo focuses his efforts on the top targets while coordinating recruiting efforts with the assistants. But ultimately,  it's still Wojo's job to close.

5.  Official visits tell me a lot more.  Those show a strong mutual interest between the player and the school.  I also believe an official visit signifies the coach is trying to secure a commitment from the player. 

6.  Recruiting rankings are fun, but the coaches need to do make their own evaluations.

7.  As a recruiting junkie, I try to get as much info about a recruit as possible.  I seek out online videos, game footage, watch in person, look up stats from HS and summer league, etc.  The more info I have, the more I refine my opinion,  including reevaluating them throughout their Marquette career.

8.  Overall,  I try to be optimistic yet realistic about what players Marquette will land and how they will develop.  I believe it's important to have a roster with 1-2 big recruiting wins (top 50 types), a few undervalued top 100 kids, and round out the roster with 3 stars and transfers that can at least fill a role.  Not all will develop,  but occasionally you will have a player significantly out perform their ranking.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18537 on: June 27, 2019, 12:01:13 AM »
Basketball recruits, like most things, are on a bell curve. Typically, there's a lot bigger difference between #1 and #26 than there is between #26 and #120.

If you assume 3.3 recruits per team, per year, times 353 teams, equaling 1,165 D-1 recruits per recruiting class...the standard deviations would break down some thing like this:

1-25 (top 2%)
26-200 (roughly top 15%)
201-783 (roughly top 68%)

TedBaxter

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18538 on: June 27, 2019, 01:21:41 AM »
If You Aren't All In For Marquette Basketball, Move On

WarriorInNYC

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18539 on: June 27, 2019, 04:25:12 AM »
As far as Theo goes..dominant defender WHEN he is on the floor and not in foul trouble, which as we all know is too often. Another terrible FT shooter as well. My issue with Theo(and maybe he will get there) is offensively. I just like my post guys to be offensive threats as well. he just isn't...yet. He has no jump shot really to speak of. He doesn't have to average 10-12 points a game(but if he did, it's hard saying how far MU could go), but it sure would be nice if he had a good enough, and polished enough offensive game, to be a legitimate threat down there. If he could become Robert Jackson or Davante Gardner..my oh my.

If Theo John could become a Davante Gardner on the offensive side of things, then you're talking about arguably a top-5 forward in college basketball.  If that's where you're setting your expectations for him, I'd suggest bringing that down a bit.

brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18540 on: June 27, 2019, 05:42:43 AM »
If Theo John could become a Davante Gardner on the offensive side of things, then you're talking about arguably a top-5 forward in college basketball.  If that's where you're setting your expectations for him, I'd suggest bringing that down a bit.

Theo with Gardner's offense would be a lottery pick.
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tower912

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18541 on: June 27, 2019, 06:40:46 AM »
Theo is the poster child for how well the Marquette coaching staff can develop players.    His improvement from his freshman to sophomore years was remarkable.   He went from a few minutes a game as a freshman to a force as a sophomore, a truly elite shot blocker.  Somebody you noticed on the floor and noticed when he was off.   Yep, he fouled too much, and his trying to block every shot frequently took him out of optimal rebounding position.   Sophomore.   I fully expect him to continue to improve.    But, due to his height, I don't know what his ceiling his vis a vis the league.    Delgado at Seton Hall was a much more accomplished player offensively, but that didn't translate to being drafted.      So, like Gardner, enjoy him while he is at Marquette.    Because he has developed (there is that word again.   With much help from the coaching staff) into a force and a presence on the blocks. 
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MU82

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18542 on: June 27, 2019, 06:46:24 AM »
1.  I don't get too worked up about offers.  Most are conditional offers.  It's basically the way a school tells an athlete "We want to recruit you."

2.  Many offers go nowhere, so coaches look for more players to recruit and more offers are made.  How many offers are made does not necessarily equal the number of active recruitments.

3.  General rule of thumb, I think a school needs to recruit 5 players for every 1 scholarship opening.   With 5 open, Marquette should be recruiting about 25 kids at any one time.   The two previous years had fewer scholarships open so the recruiting focus was more narrow.

4.  Wojo delegates most of the recruiting work to the assistants, as opposed to the more hands on style of Crean and Buzz.  That means each assistant has about 8 recruits to focus on right now. Sometimes 2 assistants share a key recruit.  Wojo focuses his efforts on the top targets while coordinating recruiting efforts with the assistants. But ultimately,  it's still Wojo's job to close.

5.  Official visits tell me a lot more.  Those show a strong mutual interest between the player and the school.  I also believe an official visit signifies the coach is trying to secure a commitment from the player. 

6.  Recruiting rankings are fun, but the coaches need to do make their own evaluations.

7.  As a recruiting junkie, I try to get as much info about a recruit as possible.  I seek out online videos, game footage, watch in person, look up stats from HS and summer league, etc.  The more info I have, the more I refine my opinion,  including reevaluating them throughout their Marquette career.

8.  Overall,  I try to be optimistic yet realistic about what players Marquette will land and how they will develop.  I believe it's important to have a roster with 1-2 big recruiting wins (top 50 types), a few undervalued top 100 kids, and round out the roster with 3 stars and transfers that can at least fill a role.  Not all will develop,  but occasionally you will have a player significantly out perform their ranking.

I really, really liked this. Informative and helpful. Thanks a lot, LH.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18543 on: June 27, 2019, 07:34:50 AM »
Theo is the poster child for how well the Marquette coaching staff can develop players.    His improvement from his freshman to sophomore years was remarkable.   He went from a few minutes a game as a freshman to a force as a sophomore, a truly elite shot blocker.  Somebody you noticed on the floor and noticed when he was off.   Yep, he fouled too much, and his trying to block every shot frequently took him out of optimal rebounding position.   Sophomore.   I fully expect him to continue to improve.    But, due to his height, I don't know what his ceiling his vis a vis the league.    Delgado at Seton Hall was a much more accomplished player offensively, but that didn't translate to being drafted.      So, like Gardner, enjoy him while he is at Marquette.    Because he has developed (there is that word again.   With much help from the coaching staff) into a force and a presence on the blocks.
Although not drafted , Delgado was signed to a two way contract. He was G league player or the year . The following is a research report that outlines many of his limitations and a few strengths. Theo would have to improve his overall game significantly to meet the Delgado standard. Anything is possible with hard work.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clipsnation.com/platform/amp/2019/5/10/18563996/clippers-2018-2019-exit-interviews-angel-delgado

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Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18544 on: June 27, 2019, 09:01:01 AM »
From RHoops Recruiting  (Rutgers):

2020 forward Coleman Hawkins (@colehawk23) of @DreamVisionBall and @ProlificPrep is on an unofficial visit to Marquette, not an official visit, he tells me.
 
https://t.co/9cuZpVjBeK
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 09:04:12 AM by Lazar's Headband »

onepost

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18545 on: June 27, 2019, 09:21:57 AM »
I can think absolutely any way I want...Thank you very much. You have NO idea what i want, think, hope for etc. Do NOT EVER tell me what I can and can't do...are we clear Brew?? Thank You.

This board continues to reach new lows......

Stretchdeltsig

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18546 on: June 27, 2019, 09:32:40 AM »
This board continues to reach new lows......

Agree. It has been affected by the same bug that has tainted the media.

onepost

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18547 on: June 27, 2019, 09:49:53 AM »
I admittedly haven't kept up nearly as much with recruiting this summer as I have in years past.
Who would you guys (and chicks) say is our tiered breakdown of wants/attainable gets?  Top of mind I can think of the following, but please correct me if you think it's wrong.

Garcia, Suggs, Burnett, Nix

Lewis, Bridges, Sibley, Davis, Steward, Jackson

Madsen, Polk, Hawkins
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 09:52:18 AM by onepostburnett »

Uncle Rico

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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18548 on: June 27, 2019, 09:51:15 AM »
I admittedly haven't kept up nearly as much with recruiting this summer as I have in years past.
Who would you guys (and chicks) say is our tiered breakdown of wants/attainable gets?  Top of mind I can think of the following, but please correct me if you think it's wrong.

Garcia, Suggs, Burnett, Nix

Lewis, Bridges, Sibley, Davis, Steward, Jackson

Greer, Madsen, Polk, Hawkins

I haven’t seen them connected with Greer in awhile
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Re: Recruiting as of 6/15/19
« Reply #18549 on: June 27, 2019, 10:44:03 AM »
I admittedly haven't kept up nearly as much with recruiting this summer as I have in years past.
Who would you guys (and chicks) say is our tiered breakdown of wants/attainable gets?  Top of mind I can think of the following, but please correct me if you think it's wrong.

Garcia, Suggs, Burnett, Nix

Lewis, Bridges, Sibley, Davis, Steward, Jackson

Madsen, Polk, Hawkins

Group 1 are the home run swings.  Group 2 are also top priorities.

Add Lance Ware to group two.  Maybe Elijah Hutchins-Everett also.  Zed Key in group two or three.  Madsen might also be group two.  The coaches list surely looks different than the fans list.

We'll have to see if the new offers go anywhere.  The list remains fluid.