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Author Topic: Recruiting as of 2/15/24  (Read 8234408 times)

Goose

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33375 on: January 17, 2023, 06:31:12 PM »
tower

I think we will see different versions of the offense depending on players. My point is replacing Oso will be tough, but I am saying that Gold can have some of Oso’s skills along with the skills he has and he can be very effective.
I will add, they have had several very runs with Gold on the court, notably Baylor and Georgetown. Both were big scoring outbursts by MU.

tower912

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33376 on: January 17, 2023, 06:38:56 PM »
tower

I think we will see different versions of the offense depending on players. My point is replacing Oso will be tough, but I am saying that Gold can have some of Oso’s skills along with the skills he has and he can be very effective.
I will add, they have had several very runs with Gold on the court, notably Baylor and Georgetown. Both were big scoring outbursts by MU.
We are in agreement.   The offense will be different without Kolek and Oso.   However, it can still be effective with the same principles and the skill development of players currently on the roster and committed.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

wadesworld

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33377 on: January 17, 2023, 06:41:07 PM »
Gold will be the starting 5 when Oso leaves. Al can bring some of what Oso does to the table. And if guys continue to hit like that, Shaka should be able to get a number of skilled bigs who can put it on the floor and pass it.
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Goose

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33378 on: January 17, 2023, 06:43:52 PM »
Tower

I think I am counting on Shaka and his staff to identify what will work and recruit/develop guys that will make it happen. I do not think many, myself included, thought this offense would be one of the top five in the country with the guys coming back and they made it happen. IMO it was most amazing things I have seen as a MU fan.

tower912

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33379 on: January 17, 2023, 06:51:56 PM »
I expected much improved.   Top 5?  No.   The offense improved a lot last season.  It wore down toward the end as the team wore down.   But the foundation was definitely put in place last January.    I expected that the returnees would improve and their understanding would broaden.

So, I expect MU to continue to recruit athletic, versatile guards with size as well as athletic forwards.    Since this is the recruiting thread.
Dortch would be a great get.   Mohammed being a 6'5 sophomore with guard skills and a 7'2 dad would be awesome.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33380 on: January 17, 2023, 07:35:07 PM »
No one is gonna replace Oso. Shaka could nearly handpick any 2023 recruit he wants and still not replace Oso.  Oso is the most irreplaceable player at Marquette since Jae.

I suspect this team would struggle more if it lost Kolek than Oso, and that's saying a ton about Kolek because Oso is such a unique player. 

Anytime Kolek has gone off the floor it has been almost a complete crap show.  Kolek adds a ton of value to Oso's game.

Our rebounding and post-presence would be brutal without Oso, but I feel it would be an even worse reality if Kolek got injured/left next year.

Newsdreams

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33381 on: January 17, 2023, 08:04:27 PM »
Goal is National Championship

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33382 on: January 17, 2023, 08:10:33 PM »
Reminder: NIL and immigration an issue for OMax and Gold.

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/2022/05/18/ncaa-nil-international-college-athletes-student-visas/

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4everwarriors

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33383 on: January 17, 2023, 08:47:39 PM »
Chit, y'all don't no ball, hey?
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Newsdreams

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33384 on: January 17, 2023, 09:33:15 PM »
Chit, y'all don't no ball, hey?
Double negative, positive, hey?
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brewcity77

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33385 on: January 17, 2023, 09:34:56 PM »
I suspect this team would struggle more if it lost Kolek than Oso, and that's saying a ton about Kolek because Oso is such a unique player. 

Anytime Kolek has gone off the floor it has been almost a complete crap show.  Kolek adds a ton of value to Oso's game.

Our rebounding and post-presence would be brutal without Oso, but I feel it would be an even worse reality if Kolek got injured/left next year.

It's an interesting debate. I would lean toward Oso being more of a problem because we are already challenged defending and rebounding in the post. Losing Kolek would be disastrous, but we at least have someone whose eventual skillset is geared at supplying much of what Kolek does (albeit in a different way) in Sean Jones. I don't think anyone can manage Oso's minutes as well as Jones can manage Kolek's.

I'm not at all saying Jones is there yet, just that he's closer than anyone who would take Oso's minutes, and with Kam Jones, Mitchell, and Ross, there are others to help share the back court ball handling load.
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jfp61

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33386 on: January 17, 2023, 09:53:32 PM »
It's an interesting debate. I would lean toward Oso being more of a problem because we are already challenged defending and rebounding in the post. Losing Kolek would be disastrous, but we at least have someone whose eventual skillset is geared at supplying much of what Kolek does (albeit in a different way) in Sean Jones. I don't think anyone can manage Oso's minutes as well as Jones can manage Kolek's.

I'm not at all saying Jones is there yet, just that he's closer than anyone who would take Oso's minutes, and with Kam Jones, Mitchell, and Ross, there are others to help share the back court ball handling load.

Yeah, I'll believe it when i see it with Sean. Conference play has been very very poor. Doesn't know how to play offense in the BE, he has a near a single digit assist rate. Sean's 2's are consistently getting stuffed. But with Kam, Stevie, Ross, and one of Ellis or Norman being solid next year, MU will be fine at guard.

But I agree with you. They'd still be better losing Kolek than Oso. Oso and Stevie are the entire defense right now. Oso nearly by himself is keeping Marquette's D from bottoming out like it did in 2017. They just stop defending shots when Oso is off the court.

withoutbias

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33387 on: January 17, 2023, 10:18:11 PM »
I heard Defense travels.

DoctorV

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33388 on: January 17, 2023, 10:41:01 PM »
Yeah, I'll believe it when i see it with Sean. Conference play has been very very poor. Doesn't know how to play offense in the BE, he has a near a single digit assist rate. Sean's 2's are consistently getting stuffed. But with Kam, Stevie, Ross, and one of Ellis or Norman being solid next year, MU will be fine at guard.

But I agree with you. They'd still be better losing Kolek than Oso. Oso and Stevie are the entire defense right now. Oso nearly by himself is keeping Marquette's D from bottoming out like it did in 2017. They just stop defending shots when Oso is off the court.

Interesting.
You’ve often sites metrics sites for your stats and I assume this is where this comes from, the comment about the defense.
There is a noticeable defensive drop off when Oso steps off, but there have been many times this season where I wish Oso would get stronger and tougher down low, where I feel like he’s being just a bit too soft. The frosh from UConn, Clingan, is the example that jumps out at me the most.

I think the drop off when he steps out has as much to do with Shaka only having a freshman in Ben Gold to go to.
At X he went with a small lineup with OMax at the 5.
So yea, when that happens I’d imagine the team would be awful defensively.

Maybe I’m missing something, and it’s obvious that Oso is a smart player and almost always in the right position defensively, but I think he needs to get a bit more violent down low.
Beyond and even more important than that, I think he needs a lot more help from OMax.
OMax came in with the reputation of an elite defender, much like Morsell last year, and he has had some anmazing defensive games, but often times we have not seen it this season.
He needs to rebound the ball at a much more elite level and give Oso some help amongst the trees down low

jfp61

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33389 on: January 17, 2023, 11:32:05 PM »
Interesting.
You’ve often sites metrics sites for your stats and I assume this is where this comes from, the comment about the defense.
There is a noticeable defensive drop off when Oso steps off, but there have been many times this season where I wish Oso would get stronger and tougher down low, where I feel like he’s being just a bit too soft. The frosh from UConn, Clingan, is the example that jumps out at me the most.

I think the drop off when he steps out has as much to do with Shaka only having a freshman in Ben Gold to go to.
At X he went with a small lineup with OMax at the 5.
So yea, when that happens I’d imagine the team would be awful defensively.

Maybe I’m missing something, and it’s obvious that Oso is a smart player and almost always in the right position defensively, but I think he needs to get a bit more violent down low.
Beyond and even more important than that, I think he needs a lot more help from OMax.
OMax came in with the reputation of an elite defender, much like Morsell last year, and he has had some anmazing defensive games, but often times we have not seen it this season.
He needs to rebound the ball at a much more elite level and give Oso some help amongst the trees down low

Omax is a fine defender, much like morsell last year. But neither had the best underlying defensive stats for shaka. I think its two things. 1. I do believe both are slightly overrated defenders. 2. They both get tougher matchups than nearly anyone else.

Oso is as tough as this team gets down low. Does he affect rebounding, no. (most bigs under shaka really haven't affected rebounding because he switches on D.)  But he affects something way more important than that. He prevents shots. When he is on the court in conference play, teams take 6 percent less attempts at the rim, they make 2% less 2 point attempts, they make 8.4% less threes, and most importantly marquette takes the ball away more often (2.6%more) with him in because they trust him behind them.

Season long without filters, MU is the 39th best D with Oso in, and MU is 306th with him of the court. (with filtering out garbage time 43rd with him on the court and 220th with him off the court)

Sidenote (Oso and Stevie were the two best defenders on the team last year too, they just offered too little on offense to play more.)

DoctorV

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33390 on: January 17, 2023, 11:42:14 PM »
Omax is a fine defender, much like morsell last year. But neither had the best underlying defensive stats for shaka. I think its two things. 1. I do believe both are slightly overrated defenders. 2. They both get tougher matchups than nearly anyone else.

Oso is as tough as this team gets down low. Does he affect rebounding, no. (most bigs under shaka really haven't affected rebounding because he switches on D.)  But he affects something way more important than that. He prevents shots. When he is on the court in conference play, teams take 6 percent less attempts at the rim, they make 2% less 2 point attempts, they make 8.4% less threes, and most importantly marquette takes the ball away more often (2.6%more) with him in because they trust him behind them.

Season long without filters, MU is the 39th best D with Oso in, and MU is 306th with him of the court. (with filtering out garbage time 43rd with him on the court and 220th with him off the court)

Sidenote (Oso and Stevie were the two best defenders on the team last year too, they just offered too little on offense to play more.)

Thanks,
Appreciate your work and data.
Keep it up

nyg

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33391 on: January 18, 2023, 07:57:55 AM »
https://n.rivals.com/prospect_rankings/rivals150/2023

Rivals with an update on 2023 recruit rankings.  Their final rankings will be out in few months after season.

Norman at 93, upward movement of 16 from 109
Lowery at 146
Amadou at 150

bilsu

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33392 on: January 18, 2023, 09:07:48 AM »
Interesting.
You’ve often sites metrics sites for your stats and I assume this is where this comes from, the comment about the defense.
There is a noticeable defensive drop off when Oso steps off, but there have been many times this season where I wish Oso would get stronger and tougher down low, where I feel like he’s being just a bit too soft. The frosh from UConn, Clingan, is the example that jumps out at me the most.

I think the drop off when he steps out has as much to do with Shaka only having a freshman in Ben Gold to go to.
At X he went with a small lineup with OMax at the 5.
So yea, when that happens I’d imagine the team would be awful defensively.

Maybe I’m missing something, and it’s obvious that Oso is a smart player and almost always in the right position defensively, but I think he needs to get a bit more violent down low.
Beyond and even more important than that, I think he needs a lot more help from OMax.
OMax came in with the reputation of an elite defender, much like Morsell last year, and he has had some anmazing defensive games, but often times we have not seen it this season.
He needs to rebound the ball at a much more elite level and give Oso some help amongst the trees down low
One of the things I worried about before the start of the season was Oso getting in foul trouble. He has mostly avoided foul trouble. Having him play more violent will have him fouling out of games.

Hoops92

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33393 on: January 18, 2023, 09:34:03 AM »
https://n.rivals.com/prospect_rankings/rivals150/2023

Rivals with an update on 2023 recruit rankings.  Their final rankings will be out in few months after season.

Norman at 93, upward movement of 16 from 109
Lowery at 146
Amadou at 150

I’m surprised Lowery hasn’t risen more?

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33394 on: January 18, 2023, 09:38:03 AM »
I’m surprised Lowery hasn’t risen more?

Me too.  Anchoring bias could be a factor.

MuMark

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TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33396 on: January 18, 2023, 12:50:44 PM »
Yeah, I'll believe it when i see it with Sean. Conference play has been very very poor. Doesn't know how to play offense in the BE, he has a near a single digit assist rate. Sean's 2's are consistently getting stuffed. But with Kam, Stevie, Ross, and one of Ellis or Norman being solid next year, MU will be fine at guard.

But I agree with you. They'd still be better losing Kolek than Oso. Oso and Stevie are the entire defense right now. Oso nearly by himself is keeping Marquette's D from bottoming out like it did in 2017. They just stop defending shots when Oso is off the court.
This is where I am with Sean too. Hoping Shaka gets the same 2nd year improvement with him that we've seen from the starting 5.
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DoctorV

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33397 on: January 18, 2023, 01:42:00 PM »
This is where I am with Sean too. Hoping Shaka gets the same 2nd year improvement with him that we've seen from the starting 5.

It’s blasphemous around these parts to mention an exit, and I definitely mean no ill will towards any Marquette players, especially Sean who I’m really pulling for because he’s a little dude that is just out punching bigger dudes everytime he succeeds and he wears my favorite number (22).

I felt the same about Markus- I love undersized guys that step in and dominate amongst the trees. It’s becoming extremely more difficult to succeed as a sub 6 foot guard, even sub 6’2 guard, in the modern game as players just get bigger/longer by the day.
I’m sure Muggs agrees with me here.

That said, there was a thought that creeped in in the last few weeks that made me feel like it would be tough for Shaka to keep Sean at Marquette if there was a blockade at the guard position, which there seemingly will be.
Outside of any unexpected exits, which there hopefully won’t be, I would have thought that SJ22 is the 3rd most likely to move on after Keeyan or EE.

It just seemed as if he was struggling of late and getting less run. That made his performance against UConn extra special for me- he came in and changed the game, had a huge impact and was one of the reasons we won that game. That was against an elite BE team.
I love the versatility he gives at PG- he has a skill set that no one else does- and that’s great for both him and the team.

I’d love for him to finish strong and continue to see more run, but as the season gets deeper and the rotations get shorter it’ll be on him, and hopefully he’s up to the challenge.
Then he will have to work his tail off, like others before him (hello Tyler Kolek!) to get himself in and keep himself a part of a loaded backcourt rotation next season.

Hopefully he starts with a big one tonight.

CountryRoads

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33398 on: January 18, 2023, 01:55:56 PM »
I’d love for him to finish strong and continue to see more run, but as the season gets deeper and the rotations get shorter it’ll be on him, and hopefully he’s up to the challenge.
Then he will have to work his tail off, like others before him (hello Tyler Kolek!) to get himself in and keep himself a part of a loaded backcourt rotation next season.

Hopefully he starts with a big one tonight.

Yeah, it goes without saying that there will be some extreme competition at the guard spot next year. I’d say Kolek is the only safe one.

I watched Dodds show the other day and they had Adam Finkelstein on and it sure sounds like Norman is an alpha dog type player who won’t be expecting to be an end of the bench player in year one. It’s a good problem to have though and excited to see how it shakes out.

tower912

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Re: Recruiting as of 12/15/22
« Reply #33399 on: January 18, 2023, 01:56:16 PM »
I do not wish to distract from the season with such speculation, Doctor V, but I have thought along those lines.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

 

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