Volleyball Thread

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Of course it's fine for an allegation to be made.  That's different than railroading people without a single shred of evidence and having the entire media, Duke University, and community screaming they should all be in prison and committed a heinous crime.  The coach was also terminated with zero wrongdoing. 

Your hyperbole isn't really accurate here.

But who lost their job over this?

[JWags85]

Your hyperbole isn't really accurate here.

But who lost their job over this?

I think he's conflating this case and the Duke Lax case.  The LAX coach was forced to resign.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think he's conflating this case and the Duke Lax case.  The LAX coach was forced to resign.

Oh OK.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But you do understand I hope that it is the proponent of an allegation or statement that has the burden of proving that the allegation has a basis in fact. BYU wants to flush out the facts here but the onus is not on them to prove or disprove anything.

Actually you are incorrect here. Universities are bound by Title VII which prevents harassment and discrimination based on a protected class. Once they are made aware of an allegation of racial harassment at one of their sponsored events, they are obligated to at very least offer a grievance process to the complainant and if the complaint accepts the offer, they are obligated to at very least look into it (what that entails would depend on the nature of the accusation).

[tower912]

The majority of the media is "full of #2" and has been for decades.

Ever since the fairness doctrine went away and Fox and Rush hit the airwaves.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Of course it's fine for an allegation to be made.  That's different than railroading people without a single shred of evidence and having the entire media, Duke University, and community screaming they should all be in prison and committed a heinous crime.  The coach was also terminated with zero wrongdoing.

A couple of things here. There were shreds of evidence, but not nearly enough to convict for rape and for at least one of the defendants there was exculpatory evidence for rape.

The "entire media" was not screaming that they should be in prison and committed a heinous crime. The majority of media just reported on the allegations. There were plenty of opinion articles and everyday people who made judgements but that's something different.

There were bad actors in Durham law enforcement, the DA's office, and Duke that did railroad the defendants. They were wrong and what they did was illegal. The defendants have been well compensated for what was done to them. Again, this doesn't mean that all of them were innocent.

There was plenty of wrongdoing by the coach, just not necessarily related to this incident or enough to justify forced resignation. IIRC, he was also well compensated in the end.

[Dickthedribbler]

Actually you are incorrect here. Universities are bound by Title VII which prevents harassment and discrimination based on a protected class. Once they are made aware of an allegation of racial harassment at one of their sponsored events, they are obligated to at very least offer a grievance process to the complainant and if the complaint accepts the offer, they are obligated to at very least look into it (what that entails would depend on the nature of the accusation).

No, I'm not "incorrect here" because what I said a couple of posts back is consistent with what you said in the quoted portion.

The complainant can be afforded the most elaborate grievance process ever put together, and, she can provided the most thorough investigation ever conducted. But if the facts aren't there to support a finding of wrongdoing, then there will be no finding of wrongdoing.

To this point, I'm not aware of any facts demonstrating wrongdoing.

[lawdog77]

Ever since the fairness doctrine went away and Fox and Rush hit the airwaves.

Yay! Politics!

[Hards Alumni]

Guys, this is an Arbys.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No, I'm not "incorrect here" because what I said a couple of posts back is consistent with what you said in the quoted portion.

Yes you are incorrect. You said "the onus is not on them (BYU) to prove or disprove anything.". BYU in this case is the investigatory body, not the respondent, they are obligated (provided the complainant makes a complaint) to try to prove or disprove the allegation.

The complainant can be afforded the most elaborate grievance process ever put together, and, she can provided the most thorough investigation ever conducted. But if the facts aren't there to support a finding of wrongdoing, then there will be no finding of wrongdoing.

This is correct. I think you were just putting BYU as the respondent when they are actually the investigatory body.

[tower912]

Yay! Politics!

I responded in kind.

[lawdog77]

I responded in kind.

Well the person you quoted didn't mention politics. He said a majority of the media, which covers both sides.

[tower912]

Context and source.  And I stand by it.

[lawdog77]

Context and source.  And I stand by it.

rocky_warrior
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This is a politics free zone!
« on: May 17, 2016, 07:57:58 AM »
Quote
You know the drill - take the politics elsewhere.

Anything political posted here will be swiftly removed, and if you violate the rule too frequently, you'll find yourself without a place to post.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You can report the post instead of clogging up the topic with your complaints.

[lawdog77]

You can report the post instead of clogging up the topic with your complaints.

Thanks, Dad. Reporting apparently does little, since Rico still posts in abundance. Tower is normally better than that.

[MuggsyB]

A couple of things here. There were shreds of evidence, but not nearly enough to convict for rape and for at least one of the defendants there was exculpatory evidence for rape.

The "entire media" was not screaming that they should be in prison and committed a heinous crime. The majority of media just reported on the allegations. There were plenty of opinion articles and everyday people who made judgements but that's something different.

There were bad actors in Durham law enforcement, the DA's office, and Duke that did railroad the defendants. They were wrong and what they did was illegal. The defendants have been well compensated for what was done to them. Again, this doesn't mean that all of them were innocent.

There was plenty of wrongdoing by the coach, just not necessarily related to this incident or enough to justify forced resignation. IIRC, he was also well compensated in the end.

The fact that they were well compensated by Duke, because Duke was sued and lost, isn't really the point.  It's how Duke's President and faculty in particular responded to the allegation without knowing one fking thing about the case.  This exacerbated racial division in the community, on campus, on other local campuses, statewide, nationally, and led to the media propagating the "story" non-stop.  In lieu of the coach being essentially fired you can make the argument that a ton of faculty there, and Broadhead, should have lost their jobs.  Their actions were totally dishonest and ignominious to say the least.  Now, obviously the local authorities and DA were assclowns engaging in criminal behavior but there weren't just "a few bad actors".  Duke University bears significant responsibility.

[tower912]

Thanks, Dad. Reporting apparently does little, since Rico still posts in abundance. Tower is normally better than that.

You will regain my my respect when you complain about a political statement that agrees with you.   

[lawdog77]

You will regain my my respect when you complain about a political statement that agrees with you.

Uh, I am.

[tower912]

Blessings be upon you.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The fact that they were well compensated by Duke, because Duke was sued and lost, isn't really the point.  It's how Duke's President and faculty in particular responded to the allegation without knowing one fking thing about the case.  This exacerbated racial division in the community, on campus, on other local campuses, statewide, nationally, and led to the media propagating the "story" non-stop.  In lieu of the coach being essentially fired you can make the argument that a ton of faculty there, and Broadhead, should have lost their jobs.  Their actions were totally dishonest and ignominious to say the least.  Now, obviously the local authorities and DA were assclowns engaging in criminal behavior but there weren't just "a few bad actors".  Duke University bears significant responsibility.

Broadhead, maybe. The vast majority of the faculty, no. Free speech is free speech. I know there were some allegations that at least one faculty member retaliated against one of the accused by giving them an unjust failing grade which is certainly a terminatable offense. I honestly don't remember the details of that particular allegation so I can't comment on the veracity of that allegation.

IIRC, Duke didn't lose, they settled. The rules surrounding these proceedings back then were very vague and led to a lot of abuse in both directions. This case is part of what led to Obama issuing new guidance in 2011 which gave those accused of sexual misconduct more due process than students accused of any other misconduct at a university. Despite all that, I think you are right that Duke did bear significant responsibility. I just think you overestimate how many people were involved in those decisions.

I'm also going to take this opportunity to point out that the circumstances of Duke LAX are wildly different than and not really applicable to this volleyball allegation which is the actual topic being discussed.

[MuggsyB]

Broadhead, maybe. The vast majority of the faculty, no. Free speech is free speech. I know there were some allegations that at least one faculty member retaliated against one of the accused by giving them an unjust failing grade which is certainly a terminatable offense. I honestly don't remember the details of that particular allegation so I can't comment on the veracity of that allegation.

IIRC, Duke didn't lose, they settled. The rules surrounding these proceedings back then were very vague and led to a lot of abuse in both directions. This case is part of what led to Obama issuing new guidance in 2011 which gave those accused of sexual misconduct more due process than students accused of any other misconduct at a university. Despite all that, I think you are right that Duke did bear significant responsibility. I just think you overestimate how many people were involved in those decisions.

I'm also going to take this opportunity to point out that the circumstances of Duke LAX are wildly different than and not really applicable to this volleyball allegation which is the actual topic being discussed.

Yes, they settled.  My bad.  But they settled for a reason and I believe there were also lawsuits they settled with other LaCrosse students that were defamed.

As far as the volleyball player I don't mean to make parallels. I would imagine they have plenty of video abd audio from the game while this player was serving.  If it comes out that they did indeed slur her,  or scream  the N word they (individuals and BYU)  absolutely should be investigated and severely punished.  But on the flipside if they find out nothing happened and the story was fabricated the Duke player should be expelled imo. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

As far as the volleyball player I don't mean to make parallels. I would imagine they have plenty of video abd audio from the game while this player was serving.  If it comes out that they did indeed slur her,  or scream  the N word they (individuals and BYU)  absolutely should be investigated and severely punished.  But on the flipside if they find out nothing happened and the story was fabricated the Duke player should be expelled imo.

No BYU should not be severely punished. They aren't responsible for some idiot using a racial slur at a volleyball game. And if there was an idiot using a racial slur, they shouldn't be punished by anyone besides BYU. Assuming they are a non-student/employee the most BYU can do is ban them from future events.

I don't think expulsion would be a appropriate for a false allegation of racial harassment, especially when the accused wasn't publicly identified. Maybe a short suspension. Also, you would actually need to prove the story was fabricated. Reviewing footage from the game wouldn't be sufficient for that. Have you ever been to a college volleyball game? This isn't golf, fans are screaming trying to give a homecourt advantage. It would be very easy for the audio to miss something. You would also have to rule out the possibility that the player made an honest mistake and thought she heard something that she actually didn't. Fabricating a false allegation requires intent. Honestly, to prove it you would need to get a confession that she fabricated the story.

[muwarrior69]

Broadhead, maybe. The vast majority of the faculty, no. Free speech is free speech. I know there were some allegations that at least one faculty member retaliated against one of the accused by giving them an unjust failing grade which is certainly a terminatable offense. I honestly don't remember the details of that particular allegation so I can't comment on the veracity of that allegation.

IIRC, Duke didn't lose, they settled. The rules surrounding these proceedings back then were very vague and led to a lot of abuse in both directions. This case is part of what led to Obama issuing new guidance in 2011 which gave those accused of sexual misconduct more due process than students accused of any other misconduct at a university. Despite all that, I think you are right that Duke did bear significant responsibility. I just think you overestimate how many people were involved in those decisions.

I'm also going to take this opportunity to point out that the circumstances of Duke LAX are wildly different than and not really applicable to this volleyball allegation which is the actual topic being discussed.

Really. Reading this document from 2011 affords the accuser just about every protection there is and shows no presumption of "innocence" or protection towards the accused. In seems accused and perpetrator are almost used interchangeably.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.pdf

[Dr. Blackheart]

In on topic news, MU moves up to
#19. Maybe posters should try channeling their passion?

https://www.avca.org/polls/di-women/2022/09-12-2022.html