MUScoop

1.  Ed Morrow showed up.  I don't expect him to be dominant, but he sure made some contributions tonight.     
2.  Markus was patient.   Too patient?
3.  The defense was really solid, except for defensive rebounding.    Too many butterfinger rebounds.   Too many times getting outmuscled.  And, Jesus, the last 5 seconds of regulation.
4.  Joey is a freshman.    Poor offensive decisions.   Poor defensive rebounding.   Poor defensive decisions.    With a couple of really immensely clutch plays.  Including the tip in at the end of regulation.
5.   Taking Markus out of the game is now every opponent's defensive strategy.   
6.  Fun watching our bigs get baskets off of other team's poor pick and roll defense.   
7.  Theo is a big man.   During the last two games, he has looked small.   Some big men out there.   
8.  Weird officiating in the OT.   But.... it was screwy on both sides. 
9.  The offensive flow is a far larger problem than defense right now. 
10.   Are you not entertained?

👍👍👍💣

Thank you for #9.

Win is a damn Win. Don't care how it happened.

Something positive to move forward on.  Watching the haters hate will be fun for a little while. 

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKuylrX8kT7XhVS/giphy.gif)

Quote from: WolfganghisKhan on November 23, 2018, 08:26:01 PM
Thank you for #9.

5 and 9 are probably two sides of the same point.   

Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 08:28:20 PM
5 and 9 are probably two sides of the same point.

Agreed. I've just been trying to get people to see that there is something wrong with the offense way before this game. Glad people are starting to notice.

Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 08:27:33 PM
Something positive to move forward on.  Watching the haters hate will be fun for a little while.

Watching Chicos is never fun. Free advice- more time with the family and less on college basketball boards.

Take it and run. We needed this bad. The defense is holding up its end. If we can figure out this offense thing, we could have something here. But there's A LOT of work needed on that end for sure.

Markus didn't see the roll man wide open about 10 times... that's 10 dunk opportunities missed.

Never thought offense would be a problem with this group, but it is.

Really enjoyed beating Louisville. Lets build off this and win the rest of the tough non conference.

Entertained.  Great free throw shooting won it.

Lots of missed layups, short shots. But good looks for Theo, not like Kansas game, was new gameplan.

Picked UL to win, glad I was wrong.  Thought UL was better than what I saw tonight.

Once in Wojo doghouse, hard to escape.  Jamal is there and when Elliott comes back, he slides down bench. 

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 23, 2018, 08:27:56 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKuylrX8kT7XhVS/giphy.gif)

Perfect

Did not realize Theo took 13 shots.  Like the aggressiveness for the most part - hopefully he can start converting more. 

Just another classic MU/Ville game. Honestly though I think this could potentially be a turning point, the team has looked flat a lot, maybe just seeing a W against a good team could help them believe in each other a bit more.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 23, 2018, 08:36:47 PM
Did not realize Theo took 13 shots.  Like the aggressiveness for the most part - hopefully he can start converting more.

At least two of those were slap attempts at contested tip-ins so I'd give him a pass.

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 23, 2018, 08:31:59 PM
Markus didn't see the roll man wide open about 10 times... that's 10 dunk opportunities missed.

Never thought offense would be a problem with this group, but it is.

He didn't force passes either.  He looked much more like a PG out there today.

Quote from: TSmith34 on November 23, 2018, 08:38:24 PM
At least two of those were slap attempts at contested tip-ins so I'd give him a pass.

Good point.  A couple of great moves and a couple of poor shots but I like the confidence.  There was one in the 2nd half that he forced where he would have been better off kicking it back out. 

Watching the game in Nashville with all of my UT alum family and my Domer BIL

Very glad that we won after 45 minutes of them calling our team "a bunch of albinos and Sideshow Bob".

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 08:39:56 PM

He didn't force passes either.  He looked much more like a PG out there today.

Markus played a good game.

Anyone know where Cain went?

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 23, 2018, 08:43:11 PM
Markus played a good game.

Anyone know where Cain went?

To the Wojo doghouse where he is being disciplined for ugly, ugly turnovers. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 23, 2018, 08:43:11 PM
Markus played a good game.

Anyone know where Cain went?

After he f*cked up the first couple of possessions in the second half, I think he sat for the rest of the game.   The rotation was significantly shortened up in the second half.

About that defense.   Other than defensive rebounding, the defense was really solid.    Which makes 4 3/4 games this year.    IU is the only real stinker.     Giving up 77 to Kansas isn't a crime.    That 22-0 run was more about missed shots and stagnant offense than really poor defense. 


So few threads tonight.   A rarely mentioned benefit of a win. 

Badly needed win.  I hope that this carries us through the non conference season. 

Good to see Morrow be more aggressive and productive.  We need him to improve significantly game by game.
Still not enough quick ball movement.  Side top side, inside out play.  Ball movement slows down and we take tough shots.
Defense is getting solid.

Still to many bone head passes, turnovers, fouls etc.. Jay Bilas was calling them out.  Don't mind Wojo pulling players out when they start doing dumb things.  Can any of the old timers visualize Al accepting such sloppy play?  Against good teams you will pay big time.  All in all, glad MU beat Louisville.  Good win to build on.

Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 08:31:15 PM
Watching Chicos is never fun. Free advice- more time with the family and less on college basketball boards.

Thank you

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 09:29:03 PM
Thank you

Lol. The lack of self awareness is beautiful.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 23, 2018, 08:41:08 PM
Watching the game in Nashville with all of my UT alum family and my Domer BIL

Very glad that we won after 45 minutes of them calling our team "a bunch of albinos and Sideshow Bob".

A Domer calling any team a bunch of albinos is funny.

I was so ready to head to Arby's after this game.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 23, 2018, 09:40:26 PM
I was so ready to head to Arby's after this game.

Expected a win from the tip, eh?

Nice gritty win.  They showed a lot of toughness.  To Wojo's credit, attacking basket much, much better tonight and paid off in baskets and plenty of FT trips.  Looked like that was point of emphasis in tonight's game plan.

Louisville will be good and well coached. I think this win will age well come March

As stated, several nice plays out of Morrow tonight. Spelled John very well and block late in OT was huge play.

J Hauser also with solid D amd rebounding tonight.  He was huge down stretch and OT.  Not to mention clutch from line

The way we're playing on offense right now, this team reminds me of the two post-Final Four Crean teams.  Diener was a far better PG than Howard will ever be, but on those teams, he became the go-to scorer.  Sam is a more complete player than Novak, but tonight he filled the Novak role.  Aside from Joey, the rest of the guys are role players who may or may not have a good game on any given night.  Joey might be the wild card this year.  He made a few bad plays against Ville, but showed he could also come through in the clutch in a way most freshman can't.

Those aforementioned Crean teams felt like they were a good player away from being NCAA worthy.  I think Joey can be that guy for us.

If someone would have told me that MU would be way better defensively but way worse offensively this year, I would have smacked them upside the head. Crazy...
Id rather MU be better defensively, offense scheming can be done to get better scoring opportunities. Getting a team to buy into defense takes more effort.

Quote from: T-Bone on November 23, 2018, 09:42:47 PM
Expected a win from the tip, eh?

You don't understand Arby's, do you.

Quote from: GoldenZebra on November 23, 2018, 10:21:44 PM
If someone would have told me that MU would be way better defensively but way worse offensively this year, I would have smacked them upside the head. Crazy...
Id rather MU be better defensively, offense scheming can be done to get better scoring opportunities. Getting a team to buy into defense takes more effort.

They don't have a reliable third scorer yet after Markus and Sam. They also don't have an effective point guard.  That's what's holding offense back a little now

Chartouny absolutely stunk again tonight- turnovers, passing up shots.  I don't remember seeing him on the floor in 2nd half or OT. Markus can play PG in spots, but not his best or natural position.

Quote from: GoldenZebra on November 23, 2018, 10:21:44 PM
If someone would have told me that MU would be way better defensively but way worse offensively this year, I would have smacked them upside the head. Crazy...

Floorslapper said we would improved defensively but struggle offensively without Rowsey. His logical and so far spot on assessment was roundly criticized/mocked by the board's experts.

Some said Chartouny didnt play in the 2nd half. That is wrong. He played from the U16 timeout until the U12 at a minimum. Currently rewatching.

He also played from the U12 to the U8.

Lots of minutes. Agree he did not do anything noticable.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 23, 2018, 11:06:09 PM
Some said Chartouny didnt play in the 2nd half. That is wrong. He played from the U16 timeout until the U12 at a minimum. Currently rewatching.

He did because he logged 22 minutes. Just nobody noticed him.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
Floorslapper said we would improved defensively but struggle offensively without Rowsey. His logical and so far spot on assessment was roundly criticized/mocked by the board's experts.

No it wasn't. It was pretty universally agreed upon that the defense would improve and the offense would take a step back though not this much.

Seems to be a lot of negativity after gutting out (probably) at worst a Q2 win.  If we had squeaked out a Q3 or Q4 I could understand, but it really shouldn't matter how you get your Q1 and Q2 wins. Take them and run.

Quote from: g0lden3agle on November 23, 2018, 09:31:54 PM
Lol. The lack of self awareness is beautiful.

I have major political differences with lenny but he's never posted White Supremacist bigoted crap here like Chicos and his boo-boo followers.  Unfortunate many can't recognize the difference. 

needed this win in the worst way.  Glad we pulled it out but we were inches away from disaster.  Glad the defense is coming along and think the offense will find it's identity in the next couple games. 

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 23, 2018, 09:56:07 PM
Nice gritty win.  They showed a lot of toughness.  To Wojo's credit, attacking basket much, much better tonight and paid off in baskets and plenty of FT trips.  Looked like that was point of emphasis in tonight's game plan.

Louisville will be good and well coached. I think this win will age well come March

Good post. Wojo said post game that he wants to attack and not settle for threes. If Theo can learn to hit the open man it will help a lot.

We haven't found the the third scorer behind Markus and Sam yet. Joey seems to have the best shot at it but he is a freshman and is making freshman type mistakes. Theo can scorer but will never be a guy who can get his own shot. I was hoping that Sacar and Jamal would take bigger steps forward on the offensive end. Sacar needs a lid lifter real bad. He is pressing too hard out there.

The biggest positives for me tonight were seeing a full game of consistent play and seeing Markus letting the game come to him more. They weren't as flat as they've been in past games, and they didn't ever let the momentum swing too far out of balance, especially in the second half. Hopefully seeing that they can whittle away leads without needing Markus or Sam to take over the game will pay dividends in conference play.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 24, 2018, 12:24:17 AM
We haven't found the the third scorer behind Markus and Sam yet. Joey seems to have the best shot at it but he is a freshman and is making freshman type mistakes. Theo can scorer but will never be a guy who can get his own shot. I was hoping that Sacar and Jamal would take bigger steps forward on the offensive end. Sacar needs a lid lifter real bad. He is pressing too hard out there.

Would love to see Theo and Ed keep it up. Getting solid inside scoring will create more opportunities for Sam and Markus.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM
He did because he logged 22 minutes. Just nobody noticed him.

I noticed when he had quite possibly the dumbest foul we will see all year(thankfully UL followed up with about 3 worthy candidates of their own).

But yeah he has to be more confident. We really need the guy. Especially til Greg is ready

Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 24, 2018, 01:38:52 AM

But yeah he has to be more confident. We really need the guy. Especially til Greg is ready

Please Scoop, I beg you, do not let Greg become the 2018-19 Harry Froling. We need to win with what he have now, and any addition coming in future months should be considered an added bonus.

Joe was supposed to be a difference maker because he was a reliable PG. Jamal was going to be our best athlete who could contribute both ways. Ed Morrow and Brendan were both touted as being the best in practice last year and this summer. And now Greg is going to be the added depth we need at guard in January.

If we expect Greg to show up and outperform Sacar and Joe, who are more experienced and have been active all season, we're going to be disappointed. He'll need time to acclimate, and even when he's back to 100%, he's still a skinny sophomore that has limited experience. He's got a ton of potential, but I for one don't want to have to rely on that potential to translate 3 games into his sophomore year coming off a surgery in the middle of Big East play.

Scoop is fuggin amazing. What a bunch of a holes.

We lose to Kansas #2 in the country. And it's Wojo's fault cause he didn't make any adjustments.


Today Markus has 4 points at half time.

Wojo makes adjustments to get him into space for 18 points after half time.

OR WAS THAT CHRIS MACK'S ADJUSTMENTS THAT HELPED HOWARD?

Credit where credit is due people. Come on.

Ws are Ws and Ls are Ls but struggling with a probable bubble team on a neutral court makes me think we're a long way from being the 5 seed everyone thought we should be.

Hopefully we improve and no one else does, otherwise this could be another season where we're biting our nails in late February.

Quote from: skianth16 on November 24, 2018, 02:17:43 AM
Please Scoop, I beg you, do not let Greg become the 2018-19 Harry Froling. We need to win with what he have now, and any addition coming in future months should be considered an added bonus.

I was thinking the same thing. He can/will contribute in positive ways to this team but he won't be our savior at PG. Team has to work with what we have.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM
He did because he logged 22 minutes. Just nobody noticed him.

I noticed him.  Thought he played well.  Smart, reliable player.

Quote from: Research Report on November 23, 2018, 10:14:45 PM
The way we're playing on offense right now, this team reminds me of the two post-Final Four Crean teams.  Diener was a far better PG than Howard will ever be, but on those teams, he became the go-to scorer.  Sam is a more complete player than Novak, but tonight he filled the Novak role.  Aside from Joey, the rest of the guys are role players who may or may not have a good game on any given night.  Joey might be the wild card this year.  He made a few bad plays against Ville, but showed he could also come through in the clutch in a way most freshman can't.

Those aforementioned Crean teams felt like they were a good player away from being NCAA worthy.  I think Joey can be that guy for us.

You need four players that can score 15 points consistently.  The three Amigos and Lazar could score and play defense.  Then you have the Buzz teams of Jimmy B., Lazar, DJO, Ox, Buycks, Vander, Jamal Wilson, Crowder, etc..

Quote from: NCMUFan on November 24, 2018, 07:03:29 AM
You need four players that can score 15 points consistently.  The three Amigos and Lazar could score and play defense.  Then you have the Buzz teams of Jimmy B., Lazar, DJO, Ox, Buycks, Vander, Jamal Wilson, Crowder, etc..

I think they are hoping that Joey evolves into that role just like his brother did two years ago.

Quote from: NCMUFan on November 24, 2018, 07:03:29 AM
You need four players that can score 15 points consistently.  The three Amigos and Lazar could score and play defense.  Then you have the Buzz teams of Jimmy B., Lazar, DJO, Ox, Buycks, Vander, Jamal Wilson, Crowder, etc..

You need two that can do it consistently two or three more that can randomly step up. Harder to scout.

The best part of that 16-17 team was how widespread the O was, if they could've defended worth a lick they actually would've been a quite good team

Helpful win for MU.  Need some confidence. 

MU still looks a bit slow too often.  Way too many layups given up, especially last 11 minutes of first half. Big improvement in 2nd half and OT. 

Getting to the free throw line more often later in the game, and, knocking them down was good. It helps who takes them. Howard, Hauser, Hauser are three of the best on the team.  Getting the best FT shooters to the line helps confidence a lot on offense.

Howard, 5 assists, 1 turnover makes a difference. He got away with a few ill advised decisions.  But when he makes good decisions he is one of the best.

Still two headed monster with S Hauser and Howard vs last year's three headed offensive monster with Rousey.  It doesn't have to be one person, but a few more guys need to step up on offense. 

MU still seems to not understand at times when to provide help defense and when to close out shooters off of the pass. 

MU isn't getting enough out of the wing. 

Hoping the game slows down soon for some of the new guys.

Not sure why ESPN kept mentioning the UL 3 that was called a 2. I could point to many things bith ways that could have gone differently. 

ESPN kept showing the two-point mistake because it's an easy thing to show a general audience.  Showing Theo's crap call on a pick and roll isn't as obvious to the occasional viewer. 

MU comes back to defeat Louisville on same day Badgers lose - if you can't be happy now, when will you ?  Gutted it out over a team of 5 star recruits who may or may not have been paid to play there.  Did not blow an 18 point lead with 6 minutes to go, like the previous coach did against Louisville.  Congratulations to all the players and coaches.

Quote from: Room510 on November 24, 2018, 07:38:15 AM
MU comes back to defeat Louisville on same day Badgers lose - if you can't be happy now, when will you ?  Gutted it out over a team of 5 star recruits who may or may not have been paid to play there.  Did not blow an 18 point lead with 6 minutes to go, like the previous coach did against Louisville.  Congratulations to all the players and coaches.

Come on, this is an important win and I'm glad we got it, but it's a game we should have won. I'm not running down to the Lake for beating a kenpom 50ish team on a neutral court.

If we would have beat IU or KU I would have been very happy. If we beat K-state I'll be happier than I am about this.

And as long as the Vadgers are playing us, I want them to win every other game during the season, as I do for all of our opponents.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 08:45:10 PM

After he f*cked up the first couple of possessions in the second half, I think he sat for the rest of the game.   The rotation was significantly shortened up in the second half.

I noticed that too. That's too bad. Really pulling for him to get minutes here while Greg is out.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
Floorslapper said we would improved defensively but struggle offensively without Rowsey. His logical and so far spot on assessment was roundly criticized/mocked by the board's experts.

Absolutely false.  It was near consensus that the offense would step back and (hopefully) the defense would improve.  The graduation of Rowsey alone--a really, really good offensive player and one of the worst defensive players I can remember at Marquette--almost assured that.  Add in the additional length this year and a defense-focused PG transfer and the defense has made huge strides.

Now, if you want to say that the *level* of drop off of the offense was unexpected, I'd agree there.  But it is early and I'm hopeful Joey, Ed, and Joe will continue to improve throughout the year.

Agree with above👆🏽

I'm really hoping Bailey can find some of his shot. Every shot is long. He's putting too much on his shots right now.

And chart needs to be getting 6 points a game. He needs the defense to honor him to help open Howard and Hauser.
Even Bilas said last night that he needs to take those open shots.

Quote from: shoothoops on November 24, 2018, 07:24:21 AM
MU isn't getting enough out of the wing. 

This. Markus and Joe give us enough from the PG. Sammy and Joey give us enough from the forward positions. Theo seems to be developing into a very solid C. We need Sacar, Jamal, or Bailey to start stepping up on the wing. They have all been plus defenders but their offense has been hurting us.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
Floorslapper said we would improved defensively but struggle offensively without Rowsey. His logical and so far spot on assessment was roundly criticized/mocked by the board's experts.

That is some high grade victimization right there.

I don't recall much criticism at all for his point.  I think there was a general consensus that we would be worse offensively, but better defensively without him.  The question was whether or not defensive improvement would be greater than offensive fall off.  And right now I would say it is firmly up in the air.

Best thing for me last night—besides grinding out the W. 

When Mack called the TO to freeze Joey at the end — Joey was pissed. After he hit the two free throws Joey immediately turned around and yelled at the Louisville bench. 

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 24, 2018, 12:50:21 AM
Would love to see Theo and Ed keep it up. Getting solid inside scoring will create more opportunities for Sam and Markus.

Only a matter of (Short)time before Bailey begins to contribute.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 24, 2018, 08:45:22 AM
Best thing for me last night—besides grinding out the W. 

When Mack called the TO to freeze Joey at the end — Joey was pissed. After he hit the two free throws Joey immediately turned around and yelled at the Louisville bench.

Damn! Must have missed that. Good for him.

At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

Quote from: fjm on November 24, 2018, 02:31:24 AM
Scoop is fuggin amazing. What a bunch of a holes.

We lose to Kansas #2 in the country. And it's Wojo's fault cause he didn't make any adjustments.

Wojo only makes the easy adjustments.
Today Markus has 4 points at half time.

Wojo makes adjustments to get him into space for 18 points after half time.

OR WAS THAT CHRIS MACK'S ADJUSTMENTS THAT HELPED HOWARD?

Credit where credit is due people. Come on.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

+1 is pretty sure someone even admitted this on here yesterday

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM
He did because he logged 22 minutes. Just nobody noticed him.

IIRC his man didn't score in the 2nd half.   That's the contribution we need.

Quote from: WarriorFan on November 24, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
IIRC his man didn't score in the 2nd half.   That's the contribution we need.

When Markus picked up his 4th, Wojo put Chartouny in on the next defensive e possession.  He got beat off the dribble and Theo picked up his 5th coming over to help.

Quote from: tower912 on November 24, 2018, 09:42:49 AM
When Markus picked up his 4th, Wojo put Chartouny in on the next defensive e possession.  He got beat off the dribble and Theo picked up his 5th coming over to help.

Yep. Joe can't guard anyone with speed. He's a decent help defender because of his length but he is too slow on the ball

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

It's actually true. When we win, there are 10-15 posters that don't comment.
When we lose those same 10-15 come out of the wood work and rip everything. I feel bad for them and their kids. It's almost like they don't want to give any praise to our players at all.

I can only assume they also have never give any praise to their own kids.

(Insert argument: I'm not going to praise them! That's like a participation award.)

Quote from: fjm on November 24, 2018, 09:53:25 AM
It's actually true. When we win, there are 10-15 posters that don't comment.
When we lose those same 10-15 come out of the wood work and rip everything. I feel bad for them and their kids. It's almost like they don't want to give any praise to our players at all.

I can only assume they also have never give any praise to their own kids.

(Insert argument: I'm not going to praise them! That's like a participation award.)

I just assumed they were kids.  I always viewed trolling as the modern day equivalent of prank phone calls.  Something 12-16 year olds do when they are bored, and their parents won't take them to the arcade (modern day; parents took away the xbox).

Marquette: won a game where defense kept them in the game.   
Got 18 pts and 9 rebounds from the center position
Had a freshman at the foul line at crunch time with enough moxie, despite multiple freshman mistakes, to yell over at the Louisville bench when Mack tried to freeze him.
Fought back from behind.
Didn't rain 3's

There is so much good to take from this hard fought win.     All of the things that so many complained incessantly about.    I hope this is a building block and the kind of effort and defense the team plays with the rest of the year.   

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
Floorslapper said we would improved defensively but struggle offensively without Rowsey. His logical and so far spot on assessment was roundly criticized/mocked by the board's experts.

One of the biggest attempts at revisionist history. Last year one group believed Wojo couldn't teach defense which why we weren't good.  The opposing view was that Wojo thought his best chance to win was to go with two high scoring poor defenders. He was going to outscore his competition. That same group said that this year MU would be better defensively without Rowsey but not as good offensively. Floorslappers was solidly in the Wojo can't coach defense camp. This year MU's defense is significantly better

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

I doubt that, I think it's just more than a number of people who are already skeptical about Wojo didn't think yesterday was anything to get particularly excited about. Sure, the W is all that will matter at the end of the day, but in 5 games we have yet to see a team that looks like a Sweet 16 contender.

Let's beat K-State next week and I think many more people will feel we're on the right track.

Quote from: 1SE on November 24, 2018, 10:11:33 AM
I doubt that, I think it's just more than a number of people who are already skeptical about Wojo didn't think yesterday was anything to get particularly excited about. Sure, the W is all that will matter at the end of the day, but in 5 games we have yet to see a team that looks like a Sweet 16 contender.

Let's beat K-State next week and I think many more people will feel we're on the right track.

It didn't reinforce my opinion, so it is no big deal.    Now, if it had reinforced my opinion, it would have been a very big deal. 

Quote from: BallBoy on November 24, 2018, 10:01:19 AM
One of the biggest attempts at revisionist history. Last year one group believed Wojo couldn't teach defense which why we weren't good.  The opposing view was that Wojo thought his best chance to win was to go with two high scoring poor defenders. He was going to outscore his competition. That same group said that this year MU would be better defensively without Rowsey but not as good offensively. Floorslappers was solidly in the Wojo can't coach defense camp. This year MU's defense is significantly better

Not to mention that it isn't like we fell off the cliff in terms of offensive efficiency.  We are 22nd in the nation.  Last year we finished 12th.  Moderate drop-off.  It just looks uglier, because we have had some massive droughts. 

Quote from: skianth16 on November 24, 2018, 02:17:43 AM
Please Scoop, I beg you, do not let Greg become the 2018-19 Harry Froling. We need to win with what he have now, and any addition coming in future months should be considered an added bonus.

Joe was supposed to be a difference maker because he was a reliable PG. Jamal was going to be our best athlete who could contribute both ways. Ed Morrow and Brendan were both touted as being the best in practice last year and this summer. And now Greg is going to be the added depth we need at guard in January.

If we expect Greg to show up and outperform Sacar and Joe, who are more experienced and have been active all season, we're going to be disappointed. He'll need time to acclimate, and even when he's back to 100%, he's still a skinny sophomore that has limited experience. He's got a ton of potential, but I for one don't want to have to rely on that potential to translate 3 games into his sophomore year coming off a surgery in the middle of Big East play.

He's not a savior he's a key piece that can contribute nightly tho.

And unlike Froling....we've seen Greg in a MU Jersey.

If Greg can get back healthy this year, he's absolutely going to be an added boost

Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 24, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
He's not a savior he's a key piece that can contribute nightly tho.

And unlike Froling....we've seen Greg in a MU Jersey.

If Greg can get back healthy this year, he's absolutely going to be an added boost

Maybe. I really expected Jamal to take a big step forward this year too, but so far that hasn't seem to come to pass.

Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2018, 10:19:39 AM
Not to mention that it isn't like we fell off the cliff in terms of offensive efficiency.  We are 22nd in the nation.  Last year we finished 12th.  Moderate drop-off.  It just looks uglier, because we have had some massive droughts.

It does feel like a huge drop off because last year we were in the 80's and 90's every game.

We NEED JoeC to make a shot or two early in each game to atleast get the D over by him. Otherwise Howard and Hauser will be struggling every game to get theirs as they are getting doubled constantly.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 24, 2018, 08:45:22 AM
Best thing for me last night—besides grinding out the W. 

When Mack called the TO to freeze Joey at the end — Joey was pissed. After he hit the two free throws Joey immediately turned around and yelled at the Louisville bench.

Joey will be one of the most hated guys in the league eventually.

We can only hope.   

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 24, 2018, 12:50:21 AM
Would love to see Theo and Ed keep it up.

Well, wattever floats yo boat and ta each der own, hey?

Quote from: geps on November 24, 2018, 10:48:21 AM
Joey will be one of the most hated guys in the league eventually.

Excellent.  We haven't had one of those guys since...uh, last year.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DTdPpZbgy3U/maxresdefault.jpg)

Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 24, 2018, 09:39:08 AM
+1 is pretty sure someone even admitted this on here yesterday

You're probably right, but that's brutal. Why would anyone want to go through the almost inevitable regression and rebuild among people transferring and starting over with recruiting if you don't have to? I have such a hard time understanding that mindset. Yes, things are frustrating sometimes but there are enough positives to latch onto, hope for development and cheer for your team. The sky is falling and angry reactions whenever things aren't really good is demoralizing.
PS Buzz's situation was rare b/c he had a unique and fantastic group of seniors that weren't going to transfer at that point. I suppose one could say next year could be that type of situation, but wouldn't it be more fun to root for your team to succeed and make that discussion unnecessary?? I get frustrated often too, but I'm going that  route rather than being angry constantly and constantly harping about someone losing their job.

Quote from: geps on November 24, 2018, 10:48:21 AM
Joey will be one of the most hated guys in the league eventually.

I didn't catch that but Joey does have that look...if he wants to be a bad ass, he's going to have to watch some clips of Maurice Lucas. Joey thinks he can go in deep and just have his way.  Too many times he's gotten snuffed when I'm sure if he looked, someone was wide open around him as he draws like 3 guys.

  If we win with joeys freshman mistakes, then wojo probably looks at his play as "no fear". If we lose with his freshman play, wojo better start sitting him a little. In close games, we can't afford stupid chit.  Our margins for error are slim. We ain't gonna blow out a good one....yet

Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 24, 2018, 10:57:56 AM
I didn't catch that but Joey does have that look...if he wants to be a bad ass, he's going to have to watch some clips of Maurice Lucas. Joey thinks he can go in deep and just have his way.  Too many times he's gotten snuffed when I'm sure if he looked, someone was wide open around him as he draws like 3 guys.

  If we win with joeys freshman mistakes, then wojo probably looks at his play as "no fear". If we lose with his freshman play, wojo better start sitting him a little. In close games, we can't afford stupid chit.  Our margins for error are slim. We ain't gonna blow out a good one....yet

Sounds like this wasn't on the telecast.  I was at the game. 

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

This is a stretch.

I watched the telecast.  Joey clearly turned his head to yell at the UL bench as he walked to the huddle.  Good for him.

Also, I also saw Sam send a strong message to Joey, after Joey was snuffed driving against a double team.  Sam was spotting up at the 3 pt line wide open. 

Message sent by both Hausers.  I like the leadership by Sam and the confidence of Joey.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

Most people have already made their mind up about wojo. And they're going to use whatever evidence available to back up their position. Even if that means MU loses.

Quote from: 1SE on November 24, 2018, 10:25:09 AM
Maybe. I really expected Jamal to take a big step forward this year too, but so far that hasn't seem to come to pass.

What player(s) have taken a major step forward under Wojo?

Just rewatched the game. Lots to build on in my opinion. Joey made some dumb mistakes but he is going to be a stud sooner than later.

Love Theo. He is much improved from last year and going to get better.

Ed starting to show up.

Rebounding.....ugh, ugh, ugh.

Quote from: BallBoy on November 24, 2018, 10:01:19 AM
One of the biggest attempts at revisionist history. Last year one group believed Wojo couldn't teach defense which why we weren't good.  The opposing view was that Wojo thought his best chance to win was to go with two high scoring poor defenders. He was going to outscore his competition. That same group said that this year MU would be better defensively without Rowsey but not as good offensively. Floorslappers was solidly in the Wojo can't coach defense camp. This year MU's defense is significantly better

Fixed.

I don't think he can coach...period. 

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 24, 2018, 11:41:03 AM
Most people have already made their mind up about wojo. And they're going to use whatever evidence available to back up their position. Even if that means MU loses.

I don't think it's a bad thing that people have "already" made up their mind about Wojo.  He's been here for four years and change.  Anyone who hasn't seen enough to make up their mind one way or the other is a pretty indecisive person.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 11:43:13 AM
What player(s) have taken a major step forward under Wojo?

This is subjective because of whatever your definition of "major" is. JJJ showed considerable improvement. Sacar, Theo and Sam have all gotten better since they've been here.

How much of the improvement is coaching and how much is talent? 

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 11:43:13 AM
What player(s) have taken a major step forward under Wojo?

Well, Theo John for 1.  Last year he once missed a layup with the ball bouncing off the backboard to damn near the 3 point line.  This year he is a solid offensive weapon.

Then there is this guy named Sam Hauser, who came in as a 3-star.  Outperformed during his freshman year, and then improved tremendously in year 2. He's off to a slightly slower start in terms of 3-pt shooting, but is also coming off a hip surgery, and his shooting is being pulled down from a 2-10 performance in one game.

Markus Howard was good as a freshman, but improved to near all-American status in his second year.

Some thought Sacar Anim should transfer his freshman year, because he was useless.  He is now our best defender and a solid well rounded contributor.

That's on this years squad alone.

Quote from: Research Report on November 24, 2018, 11:53:31 AM
I don't think it's a bad thing that people have "already" made up their mind about Wojo.  He's been here for four years and change.  Anyone who hasn't seen enough to make up their mind one way or the other is a pretty indecisive person.

+1

This is year 5 of being a head coach.  He will improve some but he kind of is what he is right now.

It seems pretty evident that Sam, Markus and Joey are the best 3 players and will end up being the core of this team getting big minutes as the season progresses. I think Joey has been and will continue to contribute more significantly as he gets back in the groove of game competition and adjusting to this level. We'll still get contributions from many, but I suspect things will just evolve to where it will be in more limited minutes.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
At this point, it's clear there are many fans who want MU to lose, with the thought that Wojo is not the guy, and that wins prolong his tenure.

I think you're probably right, though I don't think there are many. I'm not in that camp. I would love for Wojo to finish non-con on a tear and win out. I would love for Wojo to finish top three in league and be comfortably in the tournament. I would love for him to be the guy that figures it out as the season and his career goes on, right along with his players. I would love for him to get MU back to the Final Four, a chance for a National Championship, and stay here for the next 20+ years.

But if he's not that guy, I'd rather figure it out sooner than later. Because if this roster isn't as good as we believe, if this staff can't turn them into a league contender, then it's better to get moving on the next direction than spin our wheels for 2-3 more years because Wojo has a good relationship with the administration.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 24, 2018, 11:58:58 AM

This is subjective because of whatever your definition of "major" is. JJJ showed considerable improvement. Sacar, Theo and Sam have all gotten better since they've been here.

How much of the improvement is coaching and how much is talent?

JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

Sam is basically the same player he's been since arriving - a slight uptick in usage would be his "improvement."  Markus's numbers have largely gotten worse each season.  Theo shown some improvement.  Sacar is in his 4th year - modest improvement.  Matt Heldt? 

Quote from: Research Report on November 24, 2018, 11:53:31 AM
I don't think it's a bad thing that people have "already" made up their mind about Wojo.  He's been here for four years and change.  Anyone who hasn't seen enough to make up their mind one way or the other is a pretty indecisive person.

I don't think this is fair.  Coaches, like players, like people in their professions, always need/ want to improve if they aren't so full of themselves.  I don't think wojo is full of himself.  Coaching is not static.  Most are constantly looking for ways to improve whether it's motivating the players to trying different combinations, plays, watching other teams, coaches,  etc. an example of a coach who is at his end is McCarthy-he's still running plays from the forest Gregg era

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

Sam is basically the same player he's been since arriving - a slight uptick in usage would be his "improvement."  Markus's numbers have largely gotten worse each season.  Theo shown some improvement.  Sacar is in his 4th year - modest improvement.  Matt Heldt?

Hilarious and predictable. 

That was a great win last night! Several guys stepped up at the end and it was a total team effort.  Loved Joey's tip in and free throws at the end.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

Sam is basically the same player he's been since arriving - a slight uptick in usage would be his "improvement."  Markus's numbers have largely gotten worse each season.  Theo shown some improvement.  Sacar is in his 4th year - modest improvement.  Matt Heldt?

JJJ sucked under Buzz.  Wojo turned a dreadfully bad shooter into a solid 3-pt threat by spending time and completely reworking his shot.  Something Buzz wouldn't have done.  That doesn't happen and he wouldn't have been assured of anything. 

The rest is you shifting goalposts and redefining improvements.  If these players were playing for Buzz or another team you would be arguing that we need to see improvement from players like that.  You have zero ability to rationally evaluate anything.  Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2018, 12:16:03 PM
JJJ sucked under Buzz.  Wojo turned a dreadfully bad shooter into a solid 3-pt threat by spending time and completely reworking his shot.  Something Buzz wouldn't have done.  That doesn't happen and he wouldn't have been assured of anything. 

The rest is you shifting goalposts and redefining improvements.  If these players were playing for Buzz or another team you would be arguing that we need to see improvement from players like that.  You have zero ability to rationally evaluate anything.  Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Fixed - Brett Nelson.

As for JJJ under Buzz - he played 1-year.  Most freshman aren't finished products.  "JJJ sucked under Buzz."  What a dumb point.

There's no goalpost shifting taking place. 

Your statement about not being able rationally evaluate anything is especially humorous coming on the heels of your post in the other thread:  Jamal can't execute a jump stop/shot fake.  LOL.

I'm sorry the numbers don't work out for you, but the player development under Wojo has been stagnant or resulted in transfers out.  This is the reason the program is never taking any steps forward over the last 3 years.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2018, 12:06:12 PM
I think you're probably right, though I don't think there are many. I'm not in that camp. I would love for Wojo to finish non-con on a tear and win out. I would love for Wojo to finish top three in league and be comfortably in the tournament. I would love for him to be the guy that figures it out as the season and his career goes on, right along with his players. I would love for him to get MU back to the Final Four, a chance for a National Championship, and stay here for the next 20+ years.

But if he's not that guy, I'd rather figure it out sooner than later. Because if this roster isn't as good as we believe, if this staff can't turn them into a league contender, then it's better to get moving on the next direction than spin our wheels for 2-3 more years because Wojo has a good relationship with the administration.

I'm with you, Brew.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 24, 2018, 12:13:14 PM
Hilarious and predictable.

I want to say his response is unbelievable, but....

Theo is the best example this year. He's very improved especially defensively. Sam has clearly gotten better despite what Ners wants to believe. JJJ is a good example, "but it was Nelson who improved him". Wojo had nothing to do with one of his assistants drastically changing the way a player shoots and plays.

Markus has clearly improved as a ball handler and passer. His shooting has regressed mostly because he's taking far harder shots.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 24, 2018, 12:42:48 PM
I want to say his response is unbelievable, but....

Theo is the best example this year. He's very improved especially defensively. Sam has clearly gotten better despite what Ners wants to believe. JJJ is a good example, "but it was Nelson who improved him". Wojo had nothing to do with one of his assistants drastically changing the way a player shoots and plays.

Markus has clearly improved as a ball handler and passer. His shooting has regressed mostly because he's taking far harder shots.

Throw in Rowsey too. Almost nobody saw him developing the PG skills that he accumulated.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 24, 2018, 12:42:48 PM
I want to say his response is unbelievable, but....

Theo is the best example this year. He's very improved especially defensively. Sam has clearly gotten better despite what Ners wants to believe. JJJ is a good example, "but it was Nelson who improved him". Wojo had nothing to do with one of his assistants drastically changing the way a player shoots and plays.

Markus has clearly improved as a ball handler and passer. His shooting has regressed mostly because he's taking far harder shots.

Exactly.  For the guys that have clearly improved there's always some kind of caveat. 

Quote from: forgetful on November 24, 2018, 12:01:56 PM
Well, Theo John for 1.  Last year he once missed a layup with the ball bouncing off the backboard to damn near the 3 point line.  This year he is a solid offensive weapon.

Then there is this guy named Sam Hauser, who came in as a 3-star.  Outperformed during his freshman year, and then improved tremendously in year 2. He's off to a slightly slower start in terms of 3-pt shooting, but is also coming off a hip surgery, and his shooting is being pulled down from a 2-10 performance in one game.

Markus Howard was good as a freshman, but improved to near all-American status in his second year.

Some thought Sacar Anim should transfer his freshman year, because he was useless.  He is now our best defender and a solid well rounded contributor.

That's on this years squad alone.

I disagree with the entire premise.  I think pretty much every player has improved.  However To call Theo a "solid" offensive weapon us a majir stretch.  Hopefully by next year we can consider him solid.  Still a major work in progress.  Sacar is not our best defender.  He is often times our best athlete in the floor, which is part if our problem.

Topper

I hope no one is hoping for the team to fail this season. While I am not confident that Wojo makes the program a year in year and year out top 20 team, I am less confident on hiring someone better. Would far prefer Wojo up the program than axe him and start over again.
I do find disturbing that some on here bash anyone not 100% sold on Wojo. I believe Wojo has met the expectations that MU brass has for the program.

Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 24, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
He's not a savior he's a key piece that can contribute nightly tho.

And unlike Froling....we've seen Greg in a MU Jersey.

If Greg can get back healthy this year, he's absolutely going to be an added boost

I would absolutely like to see Greg back. It would be interesting to see how the team plays with Chartouny and Greg as the guards while Markus is on the bench.

Quote from: Goose on November 24, 2018, 01:12:04 PM
Topper

I hope no one is hoping for the team to fail this season. While I am not confident that Wojo makes the program a year in year and year out top 20 team, I am less confident on hiring someone better. Would far prefer Wojo up the program than axe him and start over again.
I do find disturbing that some on here bash anyone not 100% sold on Wojo. I believe Wojo has met the expectations that MU brass has for the program.

Why do we assume the whole team is going to transfer. Louisville did not loose much when Mack come aboard. Though I agree we should see what Wojo does the rest of the season.

Quote from: mufanatic on November 24, 2018, 12:04:03 PM
+1

This is year 5 of being a head coach.  He will improve some but he kind of is what he is right now.

We are all kind of what we are right now.   

Quote from: 1SE on November 24, 2018, 10:25:09 AM
Maybe. I really expected Jamal to take a big step forward this year too, but so far that hasn't seem to come to pass.

A lot more time for him to take that step this season.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2018, 12:06:12 PM
I think you're probably right, though I don't think there are many. I'm not in that camp. I would love for Wojo to finish non-con on a tear and win out. ...

But if he's not that guy, I'd rather figure it out sooner than later. ... then it's better to get moving on the next direction than spin our wheels for 2-3 more years because Wojo has a good relationship with the administration.

I agree with all of this .. though "finding out sooner than later" == losing enough to light the torches and gather pitchforks. 

The amount of "I want to be proven wrong" is at an all time high in 2018.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

LOL!  JJJ doesn't count because he was a freshman and a 5-star. LMAO.

There used to be poster around here that would strongly--you might even say incessantly-- disagree with you on this point.  Of course, you weren't around to see him because he was banned from this board an other boards multiple times for literally being too obnoxious to be allowed to stay.

Anyway, he would scream continuously--and I mean, scream, like in every single thread, no matter what the actually topic was--about Buzz nailing JJJ to the bench.  Everybody else, with the exception of this poster's BFF, could see that JJJ was a complete liability on floor, but that didn't stop the poster from making this argument to the point of polluting every thread and making the board unreadable.

But Buzz left, and wouldn't you know it?  JJJ became a productive player his final two seasons under Wojo.  But those don't count, because...reasons.

I've always been of the mind that JJJ was vastly overrated coming out of high school.  He was probably closer to a 3 star than a 5 star.  As a freshman, he looked like he was 15 years old and his shot was broken.  If you want to make a case for high school rankings not mattering, he'd be example 1A.

Quote from: Research Report on November 24, 2018, 02:01:40 PM
I've always been of the mind that JJJ was vastly overrated coming out of high school.  He was probably closer to a 3 star than a 5 star.  As a freshman, he looked like he was 15 years old and his shot was broken.  If you want to make a case for high school rankings not mattering, he'd be example 1A.

I think JJJ's game really is suited for the less structured AAU style of play. I'm sure he looked amazing in some of those tournaments which is the reason for his high rating. Although, when the game slowed down he was obviously less effective at the high major D1 level.

Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:06:33 PM
About that defense.   Other than defensive rebounding, the defense was really solid.    Which makes 4 3/4 games this year.    IU is the only real stinker.     Giving up 77 to Kansas isn't a crime.    That 22-0 run was more about missed shots and stagnant offense than really poor defense. 


So few threads tonight.   A rarely mentioned benefit of a win.

One thing I've noticed, the defense is at its worst when the opponent is coming downhill. When MU turns it over or takes a bad shot, that's when the defense struggles. That may be an obvious statement but its heartening to think that the defense may get even more adequate as the offense improves resulting if fewer downhill possessions

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 24, 2018, 01:37:43 PM
I agree with all of this .. though "finding out sooner than later" == losing enough to light the torches and gather pitchforks. 

The amount of "I want to be proven wrong" is at an all time high in 2018.

I feel like I've given plenty of faith over the past few years. I've trusted the process and feel now is the time for results to be delivered. Barring injury, Markus will leave Marquette as the all-time leading scorer by a wide margin. He should have the record by 400+ points when all's said and done. Sam will likely be a top-10, if not top-5 all-time scorer. Every deficit this team has had has supposedly been addressed with guys like Morrow and Chartouny. We have a plethora of bigs with varied skills, from bruisers like John to technically sound players like Heldt to our inside-out option in stud recruit Hauser.

I don't want to be proven wrong. I want to be proven right. I want this team to contend for the Big East now and for a National Title within the next two years. I want Wojo to land that high-profile recruit he's been after, maybe Jalen Johnson or Patrick Baldwin, that singular talent that can join an experienced roster and show that we can compete with Villanova and other high level programs.

It's always more fun to be right. I've pounded the drum that this can work and the vision has promise for years. Much rather be right. But if I'm not, let's get that sorted this year rather than next.

Quote from: TSmith34 on November 24, 2018, 01:44:18 PM
LOL!  JJJ doesn't count because he was a freshman and a 5-star. LMAO.

There used to be poster around here that would strongly--you might even say incessantly-- disagree with you on this point.  Of course, you weren't around to see him because he was banned from this board an other boards multiple times for literally being too obnoxious to be allowed to stay.

Anyway, he would scream continuously--and I mean, scream, like in every single thread, no matter what the actually topic was--about Buzz nailing JJJ to the bench.  Everybody else, with the exception of this poster's BFF, could see that JJJ was a complete liability on floor, but that didn't stop the poster from making this argument to the point of polluting every thread and making the board unreadable.

But Buzz left, and wouldn't you know it?  JJJ became a productive player his final two seasons under Wojo.  But those don't count, because...reasons.

This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

A 10-14% jump in FG% and a 18% increase in 3P FG% is a "slight uptick". Got it.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 24, 2018, 05:27:04 PM
A 10-14% jump in FG% and a 18% increase in 3P FG% is a "slight uptick". Got it.

None of those improvements count.  You see, JJJ was a Freshman.  And he was a 5-star.  Also, Wojo has assistant coaches, so doesn't count.

Theo doesn't count either.  Neither does Sacar, or Markus.  Sam doesn't count, obviously.  And Rowsey doesn't count, duh.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2018, 03:26:48 PM
It's always more fun to be right. I've pounded the drum that this can work and the vision has promise for years. Much rather be right. But if I'm not, let's get that sorted this year rather than next.

It's always more fun to win. Even Louisville fans would agree.

I appreciate your ability to be objective and to actually let game tape impact your feedback.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

He improved every year under Wojo.  It's statistically obvious. 

Really the whole "no one improves under Wojo" is absurd hyperbole.  You make a lot of good arguments.  This isn't one of them.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

Tin-foil hat nonsense.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 24, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

Is this InfoWars??

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2018, 07:16:58 PM

He improved every year under Wojo.  It's statistically obvious. 

Really the whole "no one improves under Wojo" is absurd hyperbole.  You make a lot of good arguments.  This isn't one of them.

I would argue that the level of improvement some want to suggest under Wojo is hyperbole.  The topic came up around expecting Cain to take a "major" step forward.

Sam came in a great shooter.  Markus too.

Markus O-Rating declined every year thus far.

Sam's O-Rating has ranged from 127.8 to 130.4 and back to 127.8 this year - which I did say also included a slight uptick in usage.

Sacar's O-Rating this year is worse than it was as a freshman, and he had a redshirt year.

Theo's O-Rating is equal this year to last.  His Block rate is off the charts good - yet I can't say coaching has much to do with shot blocking.  I've noted in a previous post that Theo has been a bright spot for this team.

Matt Heldt? 

As for JJJ - His numbers plummeted in Wojo's first year on the job - which was JJJ's sophomore year.  His numbers as a freshman weren't that much different than he finished as a senior as it relates to shooting percentages.  JJJ's eFG as a frosh was 50%.  He finished at 52.9% as a senior.

Quote from: Newsdreams on November 24, 2018, 08:52:06 PM
Is this InfoWars??

I'm not familiar with InfoWars - just telling you the factual history of my time posting as Ners.

Matt Heldt improved each of his three years here. The talent at his position passed him up this season.

Shot blocking has nothing to do with coaching? That's a poor take. Theo couldn't defend without fouling last season. Coaching can absolutely help improve that.

As usage goes up, efficiency goes down. So if a player's efficiency stays the same while increasing usage,  that would signify improvement.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 24, 2018, 11:01:11 PM
Matt Heldt improved each of his three years here. The talent at his position passed him up this season.

Shot blocking has nothing to do with coaching? That's a poor take. Theo couldn't defend without fouling last season. Coaching can absolutely help improve that.

As usage goes up, efficiency goes down. So if a player's efficiency stays the same while increasing usage,  that would signify improvement.

To say Matt Heldt has "improved" each year is a stretch.  He came in as the 12th man, and he'll leave that way.  Sure, he doesn't set moving screens every time we have the ball anymore and he's a surprisingly good free throw shooter, but other than 5 fouls, he doesn't have much to offer this year's team. 

Personally, I think the whole "nobody improves" argument is tiresome, because it's said about literally every college coach by every fan base when they're looking for things to complain about.  I'm obviously not one of the people in Wojo's corner, but I don't believe talent development is an area where he's particularly lacking.  Nobody's really regressed under his watch and guys seem to be statistically better year by year, for the most part.  We just need better talent.  No coach in the world could turn Sacar into Wes Matthews.

Quote from: fjm on November 24, 2018, 09:53:25 AM
It's actually true. When we win, there are 10-15 posters that don't comment.
When we lose those same 10-15 come out of the wood work and rip everything. I feel bad for them and their kids. It's almost like they don't want to give any praise to our players at all.

I can only assume they also have never give any praise to their own kids.

(Insert argument: I'm not going to praise them! That's like a participation award.)

I enjoy it when that group re-emerge, they liven the place up.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2018, 07:19:21 PM

Tin-foil hat nonsense.

Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 10:34:36 AM
Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

lets pretend youre correct, what does that say about the petty character of the guy that claimed to love his players so much?

Let's also not pretend that 10-11 was a flawless year for Buzz. Team had some preseason hype. Struggled in non non conference with Bucknell. No big non con wins. 9-9 in admittedly very good conference. Needed to beat WVU in the conference tournament to get in as one of the last teams in.

Won 2 games in the NCAA tournament which saved that season and was fun to watch. But that season was largely frustration.

Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 25, 2018, 11:25:57 AM
Let's also not pretend that 10-11 was a flawless year for Buzz. Team had some preseason hype. Struggled in non non conference with Bucknell. No big non con wins. 9-9 in admittedly very good conference. Needed to beat WVU in the conference tournament to get in as one of the last teams in.

Won 2 games in the NCAA tournament which saved that season and was fun to watch. But that season was largely frustration.

Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

Quote from: forgetful on November 25, 2018, 11:45:31 AM
Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

Forgetful living up to his chosen username.  NCAA seeds:  6, 6, 11, 3, 3.  And the 11 made a Sweet 16.  Buzz recruited that "ton" of NBA talent to MU.  Buzz got every ounce of ability out of his players.

Took a team with Mo Acker and David Cubillian at guard position with 7 available players to a 6 seed.

Amusing to read Wojo's fanboys try to diminish Buzz's accomplishments.

Quote from: forgetful on November 25, 2018, 11:45:31 AM
Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

This was a bit of a misnomer.  The Ken Pom rankings for those teams were very high and many were getting used to the consistently large number of bids earned by the Big East. Frankly we didn't know what being on the bubble meant. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 11:54:27 AM
Forgetful living up to his chosen username.  NCAA seeds:  6, 6, 11, 3, 3.  And the 11 made a Sweet 16.  Buzz recruited that "ton" of NBA talent to MU.  Buzz got every ounce of ability out of his players.

Took a team with Mo Acker and David Cubillian at guard position with 7 available players to a 6 seed.

Amusing to read Wojo's fanboys try to diminish Buzz's accomplishments.

Team bubble watch started with that Acker/Cubillan team and you're lying if you don't think it was appropriate. We were 11-8 (2-5) when Andy Glockner, who wrote the segments for SI at the time, still had us on the bubble and was predicting we would make the tournament despite our decidedly unworthy resume. That was at the end of January.

We then won 9/10 games, though only one win was over a NCAA team, a streak that included the incredible three consecutive overtime wins on the road. When we beat Louisville on March 2 (the walk it out game) we pretty much knew we were in, but before that we were squarely on the bubble because we had a dearth of quality wins (only 2 over NCAA teams, Xavier & Georgetown, before UL).

The next year we were one of the last teams in, so again, an appropriate label. We finally shed it in 2011-12 when we earned a 3-seed, but you're lying to yourself if you don't think the moniker was aptly given.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 10:34:36 AM
Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

Smart people don't peddle dumba$$ opinions.  Your opinion that Buzz was not coaching his best to stick it to Marquette's administration is one dumba$$ opinion.

Here's why:

1.  It goes against everything that Buzz has preached as a coach.  He wouldn't do that to his players.  He wouldn't be a hypocrite.

2.  There are various bits and pieces regarding that last season that I have heard that lead me to believe that he was not out the door as early as people think he was.  When Larry was out in December 2013, he thought he "won."  He thought he was going going to be here awhile.

3.  He did not have the team he thought he was going to have just a few months before the season began.  He would have had Vander and Jameel, but Vander left to go pro and Jameel left after the intrasquad.  He didn't underachieve intentionally.  He underachieved because he was short of quality players.

So again, you are entitled to whatever opinions you want.  But your opinion of Buzz's last year is seriously uninformed. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2018, 12:08:41 PM
Team bubble watch started with that Acker/Cubillan team and you're lying if you don't think it was appropriate. We were 11-8 (2-5) when Andy Glockner, who wrote the segments for SI at the time, still had us on the bubble and was predicting we would make the tournament despite our decidedly unworthy resume. That was at the end of January.

We then won 9/10 games, though only one win was over a NCAA team, a streak that included the incredible three consecutive overtime wins on the road. When we beat Louisville on March 2 (the walk it out game) we pretty much knew we were in, but before that we were squarely on the bubble because we had a dearth of quality wins (only 2 over NCAA teams, Xavier & Georgetown, before UL).

The next year we were one of the last teams in, so again, an appropriate label. We finally shed it in 2011-12 when we earned a 3-seed, but you're lying to yourself if you don't think the moniker was aptly given.

Certainly can look at it this way, and as a result, at best:  Two bubble teams of 5 NCAA teams under Buzz, one of those "bubble" teams earned a 6 seed, and did win 9 of 10 in the real Big East.  (Meanwhile, through 4 seasons with Wojo, we are still waiting for our coach to led us to 3 regular season Big East wins in a row, in the watered down Big East.)

Buzz could flat out coach and that is proven out.  One year stands out as a major outlier where Buzz massively underperformed expectations. Some of you see it as a coincidence - I don't. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 12:43:03 PM
Buzz could flat out coach and that is proven out.  One year stands out as a major outlier where Buzz massively underperformed expectations. Some of you see it as a coincidence - I don't. 

I don't see it as a coincidence.  However there are logical reasons why he underperformed. 

Ners

I never thought Buzz could coach, but he got players and they played hard for him. Big fan of his time here, but being a coaching guru is not something I buy into. I loved the type of player and the style played during his time here.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 25, 2018, 12:38:03 PM


Smart people don't peddle dumba$$ opinions.  Your opinion that Buzz was not coaching his best to stick it to Marquette's administration is one dumba$$ opinion.

Here's why:

1.  It goes against everything that Buzz has preached as a coach.  He wouldn't do that to his players.  He wouldn't be a hypocrite.

2.  There are various bits and pieces regarding that last season that I have heard that lead me to believe that he was not out the door as early as people think he was.  When Larry was out in December 2013, he thought he "won."  He thought he was going going to be here awhile.

3.  He did not have the team he thought he was going to have just a few months before the season began.  He would have had Vander and Jameel, but Vander left to go pro and Jameel left after the intrasquad.  He didn't underachieve intentionally.  He underachieved because he was short of quality players.

So again, you are entitled to whatever opinions you want.  But your opinion of Buzz's last year is seriously uninformed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that - an opinion.

If you believe Buzz was able to negotiate his contract (without an agent) in a matter of weeks, have at it.

If you believe Buzz pulling Deonte Burton from our Big East 1st round tournament game, in a game Deonte was dominant, with 7 minutes left and not putting him back in until 30 seconds left made sense, have at it.

If you believe Buzz legitimately felt maxing out a starting backcourt of Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas with 70+% of available minutes that season was a formula for victory, have at it.  (One guy couldn't make a 2pt FG, the other guy couldn't make a 3pt FG.)

If you believe Buzz truly felt he could win while playing 4 on 5 - his words - have at it.

When a guy is disgruntled at his job, and at major odds with his boss/employer - how he handles things is usually radically different than his primary M.O.  Sadly the players of that season go the short end of the stick.  As I recall, Jamil and Davante didn't even say thanks to Buzz in their Senior Day speeches.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 12:59:17 PM
Ners

I never thought Buzz could coach, but he got players and they played hard for him. Big fan of his time here, but being a coaching guru is not something I buy into. I loved the type of player and the style played during his time here.

Hi Goose - Agree Buzz brought a great type of player to MU and played a great style.  I feel a large part of coaching is being able to reach a guy, and extract his best.  Buzz was generally great in that sense.  X's and O's may not have been elite level coaching, BUT, he had a very clear and consistent philosophy:  Paint Touches.  Make more free throws than the opposition attempts.  Physicality.  He told the guys to F with Wisconsin athletically - junkyard dog mentality. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 01:04:08 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that - an opinion.

Mine is an informed opinion supported by a great deal of evidence.  It is a good opinion.

Yours is based on conjecture.  It is nonsense.  And it devalues your other, oftentimes very good opinions that you post here.

Ners

We agree on Buzz.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 25, 2018, 01:10:07 PM

Mine is an informed opinion supported by a great deal of evidence.  It is a good opinion.

Yours is based on conjecture.  It is nonsense.  And it devalues your other, oftentimes very good opinions that you post here.

Agree to disagree Sultan.  Though I'm not sure your three points furnish a great deal of evidence, and offer much more than conjecture as well.

Quote from: Goose on November 24, 2018, 01:12:04 PM
Topper

I hope no one is hoping for the team to fail this season. While I am not confident that Wojo makes the program a year in year and year out top 20 team, I am less confident on hiring someone better. Would far prefer Wojo up the program than axe him and start over again.
I do find disturbing that some on here bash anyone not 100% sold on Wojo. I believe Wojo has met the expectations that MU brass has for the program.

While I think your comments on the whole are fair and level headed, there is no chance MU would not make a move with Wojo because they are afraid they can't find someone better. The member's of the BoT down to the AD would be derelict in their job duties. (or maybe your implying you don't trust MU's ability to find a better coach if they do fire Wojo).

I know it's only your 'belief', not knowledge, that Wojo has met MU's expectations but why do you think so? Other than not being fired, he has not been given a raise or offered a second extension. FWIW, it is my understanding that MU is taking a wait and see approach to extending Wojo as he has not really met nor severely missed expectations. I think everyone will agree he has not exceeded expectations.

White Trash

No one can argue that Wojo has not recruited really good kids. They definitely represent the school well.

Buzz' issues with the administration started long before Larry and Pilarz

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 12:43:03 PM
Certainly can look at it this way, and as a result, at best:  Two bubble teams of 5 NCAA teams under Buzz, one of those "bubble" teams earned a 6 seed, and did win 9 of 10 in the real Big East.  (Meanwhile, through 4 seasons with Wojo, we are still waiting for our coach to led us to 3 regular season Big East wins in a row, in the watered down Big East.)

Buzz could flat out coach and that is proven out.  One year stands out as a major outlier where Buzz massively underperformed expectations. Some of you see it as a coincidence - I don't.

It's not a question of "certainly can look at it this way", that's the exact way it was. Don't take my word for it, either:

Quote from: ToddRosiakSays on March 03, 2010, 01:15:04 PM
Lunardi on MU
               

Just got off a teleconference with Joe Lunardi, ESPN's Bracketologist, and was able to ask him about MU -- more specifically how much last night's convincing 69-48 victory over Louisville helped the Golden Eagles, and what they need to do from this point forward.

"I don't know if the margin of victory is a big deal as much as they're on a pretty good winning streak here," he said. "Part of that is the way the Big East schedule fell, with the Villanova double early on and all those close games. Now all the close games are going their way, and they're evening out.

"I think Marquette is just short of the lock board at this point. I think Saturday would finish the job. Right now they're No. 32 on my S-curve, which is as high as they've been since the pre-season. That's an 8 for a team that two or three weeks ago was out of the field. They could go up another couple lines, I think."
               

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/86254197.html

Joe Lunardi had us right on the bubble even after the Louisville win. Said we would maybe go up another couple lines from the 8-seed he slotted us at, which we did when we won two at MSG.

Quote from: CrackedSidewalksSays on March 03, 2010, 06:15:22 AM
Warriors clobber Louisville to punch dance ticket

Written by: noreply@blogger.com (Tim Blair)

With tonight's dominant 69-48 victory over Louisville the Marquette Warriors moved to 20-9 on the season and 11-6 in BIG EAST play.

Darius Johnson-Odom turned in a career-high 22 points to lead the charge for Buzz Williams' crew. Maurice Acker finished with 15 points and super-sub Joseph Fulce chipped in with 11 points.  Marquette held Louisville to a season-low 48 points on 37% shooting from the field.  No Cardinal scored in double figures tonight.  Marquette's effort was simply outstanding.

More later this week but hey -- this team is dancing.  Great job, fellas.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2010/03/warriors-clobber-louisville-to-punch.html

According to Cracked Sidewalks, that win was the game that punched our ticket.

Quote from: ToddRosiakSays on March 03, 2010, 12:15:03 AM
Goodman: Marquette is in
               

FoxSports.com's Jeff Goodman filed a late-night Bubble Watch and right at the top of his "Buy" list is Marquette.

And forget that bubble, Goodman has Marquette penciled inked in.

He writes: "The Golden Eagles punched their ticket with the home win against Louisville and are now playing with house money in the regular-season finale. This is a team that has overachieved as much as any in the country."
               

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/86112637.html

Jeff Goodman said the Louisville win was the one that got us over the hump.

Quote from: Andy GlocknerMarquette (20-9, 11-6, RPI: 47, SOS: 51): The Golden Eagles are probably one win away from security after getting to 11-6 in the Big East with a thrashing of Louisville. If they either beat Notre Dame this weekend or win their Big East tournament opener, they're likely good to go. Marquette beat Xavier and Georgetown and have looked the part all season, even when in defeat.

https://www.si.com/more-sports/2010/03/04/bubble-update

This was AFTER the Louisville win, saying we were still one win away from security.

No one is trying to diminish Buzz's accomplishments by saying we were on the bubble most of the 2010 season or that the Team Bubble Watch moniker was accurate for quite awhile (the better part of 2+ years) and was revived in 2012-13 when we got hammered at Florida and lost to Green Bay when the entire site was ready to burn the program to the ground.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
White Trash

No one can argue that Wojo has not recruited really good kids. They definitely represent the school well.

I agree. And no one can argue that Wojo has not acted with class and as a complete professional as MU head coach.

If really good kids and a class act coach are the only expectations of MU's brass then Wojo will be here for the next 30 years. Also, I think they should let the fans and donners know so everyone can adjust expectations.

White Trash
They assume that we all figured that out. Wojo has a job for long as he wants it.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 01:56:14 PM
White Trash
They assume that we all figured that out. Wojo has a job for long as he wants it.

Cmom Goose, there is zero truth to this

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2018, 01:45:36 PM
It's not a question of "certainly can look at it this way", that's the exact way it was. Don't take my word for it, either:

No one is trying to diminish Buzz's accomplishments by saying we were on the bubble most of the 2010 season or that the Team Bubble Watch moniker was accurate for quite awhile (the better part of 2+ years) and was revived in 2012-13 when we got hammered at Florida and lost to Green Bay when the entire site was ready to burn the program to the ground.

As I said, at best the Team Bubble watch moniker could be applied to 2 of Buzz's 5 NCAA teams.  Forgetful made the forgettable point that implied we were a Bubble Team during Buzz's tenure.

Yet in spite of all of the talking heads calling us a bubble team in 2010, in one of the two year's referenced - we earned a 6-seed.  Far from actually being a bubble team.  Buzz's legacy is what it is:

6, 6, 11, 3, 3.

TAMU
Zero truth that MU has high desire to run an extremely clean program? If you do not believe that is highest priority of the school regarding the program, I think you are kidding yourself.
What do you think would need to happen for Wojo to lose his job over next 2-3 seasons? Barring a scandal, bubble team keeps his seat very cool, not hot.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 02:12:23 PM
TAMU
Zero truth that MU has high desire to run an extremely clean program? If you do not believe that is highest priority of the school regarding the program, I think you are kidding yourself.
What do you think would need to happen for Wojo to lose his job over next 2-3 seasons? Barring a scandal, bubble team keeps his seat very cool, not hot.

You're changing your argument.  Wojo will win or he will be gone. Saying he has a job as long as he wants,  implying that his performance on the court doesn't matter is incorrect

TAMU
My point is based off of Wojo having a top fifty program, which is not real hard. By accident he can be a bubble team for next five seasons. He does not need March wins to keep his job over next few seasons.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
TAMU
My point is based off of Wojo having a top fifty program, which is not real hard. By accident he can be a bubble team for next five seasons. He does not need March wins to keep his job over next few seasons.

Goose, I am not MU's AD so I don't know what the expectation of the Marquette head coach is, you obviously do know; do tell your sources, please.
I do know KO was brought in to win at a high level, Deane was brought into win at a high level and won but not enough, Crean was brought in to win at a high level and Buzz was hired to win at a high level. Why the change after 25 years?

MU wanted the anti-Buzz.   The powers that be did not like the off court actions and rumored actions.    They did not like having a basketball star with no chance of graduating due to the JUCO he came from.  Messed with happy. 
     So, they got the anti-Buzz.   High schoolers and grad transfers, not JUCO's.     Eagle scout public persona, not dancing on WVU's logo.    Duke pedigree, not a vagabond. 
    There has not been a whiff of scandal since Steve came on board.    Closest thing is probably Katin rumored to have stopped attending classes after the season ended.   
     

Tower
Well said.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 25, 2018, 02:05:56 PM
As I said, at best the Team Bubble watch moniker could be applied to 2 of Buzz's 5 NCAA teams.  Forgetful made the forgettable point that implied we were a Bubble Team during Buzz's tenure.

Yet in spite of all of the talking heads calling us a bubble team in 2010, in one of the two year's referenced - we earned a 6-seed.  Far from actually being a bubble team.  Buzz's legacy is what it is:

6, 6, 11, 3, 3.

3-1/2 seasons:

2009-10: On the bubble into March.
2010-11: On the bubble until Selection Sunday.
2012-13: On the bubble into January
2013-14: On the bubble into late February, missed NCAAs.

Team Bubble Watch was accurate for more than half his tenure here.

Buzz was still a great coach. If anything, his ability to have his teams better by March almost every year (which completely erased two bubble watches in 2010 & 2013) was a testament to the work he did. But there's a reason for TBW and a reason Chiclets' checklist was broken out every year.

Quote from: tower912 on November 25, 2018, 03:22:19 PM
MU wanted the anti-Buzz.   The powers that be did not like the off court actions and rumored actions.    They did not like having a basketball star with no chance of graduating due to the JUCO he came from.  Messed with happy. 
     So, they got the anti-Buzz.   High schoolers and grad transfers, not JUCO's.     Eagle scout public persona, not dancing on WVU's logo.    Duke pedigree, not a vagabond. 
    There has not been a whiff of scandal since Steve came on board.    Closest thing is probably Katin rumored to have stopped attending classes after the season ended.   

Tower, I follow the logic but this does not prove MU's brass' expectations are good players and a class act coach and not winning games at a high level. I can't prove my assertion that MU also expect winning basketball and your post does not prove your belief stated above. The original post asserted that MU is happy with the status quo with Wojo; I proposed that the lack off an extension or raise are evidence of MU's "wait and see" position on Wojo. (I would stand corrected if someone proved otherwise)

A good clean program and winning are not mutually exclusive; see last years Final Four, 3/4 were class coaches, good players and clean programs. (KU being the exception)

I agree that MU powers also want to win.  In my opinion, Wojo has a longer leash because of the perception of the character of the coach and the players.  So, right now, I believe that Wojo's seat is glacially cool according to the decision makers.    I could be wrong.

White Trash
Of course they want to win. That said, they want to do it the right way. There is nothing wrong with their thought process. Bottom line, they do not want to risk scandal to win at high level. I have no gripe with that and have tempered my expectations.

Quote from: tower912 on November 25, 2018, 04:16:12 PM
I agree that MU powers also want to win.  In my opinion, Wojo has a longer leash because of the perception of the character of the coach and the players.  So, right now, I believe that Wojo's seat is glacially cool according to the decision makers.    I could be wrong.

I would agree with giving Wojo a longer leash and MU did with the original extension (hardly earned by on the court wins). It was a good decision at the time; top level players and assistant coaches want to come to a program where the head coach has long term job security.
So why not give Wojo a longer leash if MU's expectations have been reached? Is there any doubt if Wojo had 3 straight Tourney teams he would have been given a raise and extension by now? I have none and MU would be right to do so. My only conclusion is that he has not reached expectations, yet.
Recruiting players that will be at MU past the end of his contract may not be a negative (I disagree) but it certainly is not a positive.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 23, 2018, 08:41:08 PM
Watching the game in Nashville with all of my UT alum family and my Domer BIL

Very glad that we won after 45 minutes of them calling our team "a bunch of albinos and Sideshow Bob".

UT fans have little room to talk, when their team color can best be described as Uringe.

Quote from: Goose on November 25, 2018, 01:56:14 PM
White Trash
They assume that we all figured that out. Wojo has a job for long as he wants it.

This is not accurate, why do you keep saying this?

WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 02:08:39 AM
WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

I'd say "7 years ago I realized MU was no longer a basketball school" and "buzz what right about the Big East it it just took longer to get there" are two immaculate posts that lead some posters to suggest finding a new program for you.

Galway
My family has an extremely long and deep rooted history with Marquette University. Some of that basketball involved, but all involved in supporting the University. I believe we have over twenty grads at MU, multiple faculty positions held and direct involvement with the basketball programs history.
I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
Galway
My family has an extremely long and deep rooted history with Marquette University. Some of that basketball involved, but all involved in supporting the University. I believe we have over twenty grads at MU, multiple faculty positions held and direct involvement with the basketball programs history.
I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

Goose I wasn't the one who suggested you find a new team I was answering your post so cut the crap of me questioning your love for MU.

Now questioning your logic in those posts I answered, I'll happily plead guilty to that.

Congrats on the entrenched MU family, it doesn't really reflect on you as an individual. Heck my best friend has a family almost as entrenched with MU as you and he couldn't care less about the BBall team so the notion that you having so much family makes you more loyal or a better fan is 100% lost on me.

Galway

Only because I am awaiting a Skype call, I will take your bait and respond. I can assure you that I am NOT a better fan than you are. I can also assure you that I am NOT more loyal than you are as a fan. Not exactly sure where or how that was implied in any of my posts.
My point is quite simple, I love MU regardless of it is a basketball school or not. Thanks for sharing that interesting sidebar of your best friend and his family, it added a lot to your post.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 03:15:41 AM
Galway

Only because I am awaiting a Skype call, I will take your bait and respond. I can assure you that I am NOT a better fan than you are. I can also assure you that I am NOT more loyal than you are as a fan. Not exactly sure where or how that was implied in any of my posts.
My point is quite simple, I love MU regardless of it is a basketball school or not. Thanks for sharing that interesting sidebar of your best friend and his family, it added a lot to your post.

Goose,

None of that is meant to be baiting, you implied I was one of the posters telling you to find a new team, I told you to cut that out as I have not been.

I admitted what i was questioning.

The sidebar was about as relevant as your point about your family, in that it makes no difference how it affects your relationship with MU as an individual.

Enjoy your skype call.

Galway
I never implied anything about you in any posts. WarriorDad has mentioned several times that I should find a new program to follow and my post was addressed to him, but you felt the need to respond.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 03:31:42 AM
Galway
I never implied anything about you in any posts. WarriorDad has mentioned several times that I should find a new program to follow and my post was addressed to him, but you felt the need to respond.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

What is the above? Looks like implying I was questioning your loyalty to me.

I responded because your post asked "what (you) said that is not accurate". Felt that was open to anyone to respond to so I did. Which still hasn't been actually covered as the reply was just about how you love MU not about the quotes in question.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 02:08:39 AM
WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

I don't flat out disagree with you. I disagreed with something you said that you later clarified to mean something different than what I originally perceived.

Marquette absolutely wants a clean program. They also want to win at a high level. If Wojo fails at either,  he will be gone.

I don't know if you're meaning for this to happen,  but the perception I'm getting from your posts is that you believe because MU values a clean program that it cannot win at a high level. I think that's what people are reacting to.

TAMU

I believe MU believes they can have an extreme clean program and win at the highest level. I have no doubt they want that to happen. I believe that it can happen, but it takes a long, long, long time and a lot of luck. In addition, having the perfect coach that is going to last 12+ years is essential

As I have noted, and been bashed for, this was a decision made quite some time ago. My only gripe on the whole situation, I believe the University misleads it's faithful a tad. If all of my claims are true, which I do believe, sharing the long term for the program would have been a great idea. IMO, it was not shared because they were hiding some issues from Buzz era, and they feared the new direction might scare away some folks.

Since they are scared to share it would you mind sharing this new direction? I'm not sure what that means.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 06:40:03 AM
TAMU

I believe MU believes they can have an extreme clean program and win at the highest level. I have no doubt they want that to happen. I believe that it can happen, but it takes a long, long, long time and a lot of luck. In addition, having the perfect coach that is going to last 12+ years is essential

As I have noted, and been bashed for, this was a decision made quite some time ago. My only gripe on the whole situation, I believe the University misleads it's faithful a tad. If all of my claims are true, which I do believe, sharing the long term for the program would have been a great idea. IMO, it was not shared because they were hiding some issues from Buzz era, and they feared the new direction might scare away some folks.

Goose, I think this is a pretty accurate take. Had they clearly articulated the long-term vision for the program, some donors and fans would've lacked the patience to board the ship.

I will say this...I was at a Senior Day game late in Buzz's tenure, and you could hear it in the kids' speeches that something just wasn't right. I realize that college kids can be a little shy at public speaking, but one could sense that something was a bit off by the tone and cadence of their voices. I turned to the guy next to me, whom I had no idea had any connection to the MU  administration (I still don't know if/what his affiliations were) and I asked him if he thought something was strange. He goes, "There are some clouds around the program...things are gonna come out."  I pressed for details and he got really quiet.

When the shtf and the sexual assault allegations came to light, I didn't want to believe it. I loved the "junkyard dogs" Buzz was recruiting. To overcome the tough backgrounds they did, and succeed at the highest level of college hoops made me proud of Buzz's influence on these guys, and to some extent, it still does. However, the flipside was fraught with danger. Maybe this was what Buzz meant when he opined, "When you love them, they don't know how to act." I'm not gonna judge any of Buzz's guys, or compare their worth as human beings to Wojo's guys.

I don't think it's debatable that Buzz sought out the spotlight for both him and his guys and their rough and tumble backgrounds.You better be ready for the blowback. Wojo, by contrast, does seek the spotlight for his guys, but only for the good that they are doing in the community. While this may be part of a clear strategy, it certainly appears to be a sincere, genuine effort to be accountable to Marquette's mission. I get when some call this out as sanctimonious b.s....but I think all of us know there is something special about that name on the bottom-front of the jerseys. My patience levels with team performance has been tested as much as yours, Goose. We are gonna find out a lot about our team and our coaches in the next few weeks.

Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 26, 2018, 07:56:03 AM
Goose, I think this is a pretty accurate take. Had they clearly articulated the long-term vision for the program, some donors and fans would've lacked the patience to board the ship.

I will say this...I was at a Senior Day game late in Buzz's tenure, and you could hear it in the kids' speeches that something just wasn't right. I realize that college kids can be a little shy at public speaking, but one could sense that something was a bit off by the tone and cadence of their voices. I turned to the guy next to me, whom I had no idea had any connection to the MU  administration (I still don't know if/what his affiliations were) and I asked him if he thought something was strange. He goes, "There are some clouds around the program...things are gonna come out."  I pressed for details and he got really quiet.

When the shtf and the sexual assault allegations came to light, I didn't want to believe it. I loved the "junkyard dogs" Buzz was recruiting. To overcome the tough backgrounds they did, and succeed at the highest level of college hoops made me proud of Buzz's influence on these guys, and to some extent, it still does. However, the flipside was fraught with danger. Maybe this was what Buzz meant when he opined, "When you love them, they don't know how to act." I'm not gonna judge any of Buzz's guys, or compare their worth as human beings to Wojo's guys.

I don't think it's debatable that Buzz sought out the spotlight for both him and his guys and their rough and tumble backgrounds.You better be ready for the blowback. Wojo, by contrast, does seek the spotlight for his guys, but only for the good that they are doing in the community. While this may be part of a clear strategy, it certainly appears to be a sincere, genuine effort to be accountable to Marquette's mission. I get when some call this out as sanctimonious b.s....but I think all of us know there is something special about that name on the bottom-front of the jerseys. My patience levels with team performance has been tested as much as yours, Goose. We are gonna find out a lot about our team and our coaches in the next few weeks.

Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

Quote from: StillWarriors on November 24, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
You're probably right, but that's brutal. Why would anyone want to go through the almost inevitable regression and rebuild among people transferring and starting over with recruiting if you don't have to? I have such a hard time understanding that mindset.

This is roughly how I think about it.  I am not enamored with Wojo, but the thought of starting all over again with a new guy and another potential rebuild is not appealing at all.  For that reason I am mostly hoping Wojo gets it rolling soon and ends up being the guy.  I always want us to win.

Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 26, 2018, 08:01:25 AM
Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

I could be accused of this, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter.   

To think Buzz did media for a selfish point and Wojo does it only for a noble point is just silly.  One could argue that these stories are coming forward because the results are not there...i.e. this is the selling point of his tenure thus far.  I wouldn't go this far, but to say the other extreme (as above) is not realistic - we see what we want to see.

Also, college basketball is a results driven, money making enterprise - I choose to view it that way.

If kids or coaches commit crimes - address it.  To act like 'rough and tumble' kids are the only ones to commit sexual assault is insulting.  To act like a coach forced the university down a path it didn't want - laughable...they are accountable if crimes were committed. 

So, play within the written rules -- win ball games -- build the national brand of Marquette.  Nothing wrong with that.  If its proven MU doesn't believe this - i will probably be less of a fan - invest less in travel, donations, other things i do associated with the university. 

Some are telling people like me to 'find a new program'....funny reaction really.   

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 08:26:20 AM
Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are. 

Quote from: warriorchick on November 26, 2018, 08:44:17 AM
There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are. 

That's exactly my point. 

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 08:26:20 AM
Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

I agree with Sultan on this one. There is a very dangerous stereotype being applied the "type" of player buzz recruited.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 26, 2018, 08:01:25 AM
Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

Chick...on the periphery of this win-at-all-costs mentality reside some here who have lamented MU having "AL 2.0" here and our administration dropping the ball and losing him. I resent that comparison.

Let me be clear....I didn't know AL and I don't know any of his family, but by all accounts I know he would not tolerate the culture that was creeping in here. AL got along with most people, and I'd bet he would've got along fine with Buzz. If AL got word of what was going on, however, I would also bet that a breakfast and a stern discussion of what it should mean to coach at Marquette would have been in order.

Coach McGuire knew and lived "tough." Nobody of his day could better relate to kids with rough backgrounds. Sultan and goldeneagle91114, I do understand logic.  It IS dangerous to assume that one's background produces quantifiable negative, predictable behaviors. While AL spoke wistfully of the start of a new year and its attendant "rumors of weed and a girlfriend's pregnancy", AL meant that life happens, and that kids have lives, sometimes messy. He would NOT tolerate rape culture. AL would get all of this through to Coach Williams. And then AL would have handed the breakfast check to Buzz.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 08:46:36 AM

That's exactly my point.

No, that wasn't your point. You called me out for somehow being against recruiting kids from rough and tumble backgrounds, when I was simply impugning Buzz's lack of control over the culture that led to the assaults. Thank You, Chick..,for saying it better than I could.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 08:26:20 AMThat being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

Agreed with the entire post, but I think this underscores why fans (like myself) are becoming more critical this season. The fourth and fifth seasons of the tenures of Jay Wright and John Beilein were when those programs started to show their promise. Wright earned a 1-seed and went to the Elite Eight in season 5. Beilein earned a 4-seed.

Once you have your own guys in there that understand your system, that's when fans want to start seeing results. That's why expectations are up, criticisms will be up, and disappointments will be up if the team doesn't deliver on the promise the coaching staff has indicated is there.

Trying to be like those programs requires not just off-court behavior but also on-court production, and this season is the one when people will be expecting it.

Quote from: warriorchick on November 26, 2018, 08:44:17 AM
There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are.

This.

I would encourage everyone who hasn't read the article on Markus to do so.

https://www.athletesforgod.com/markus-howard/page-1?fbclid=IwAR2VZ_sYSwx8MCZu0SD5nhnkiCsLG1JDHmoH9Kjh-kuYLyba43T1UVzrAn8

Frankly, I am surprised that no one has accused him of being too soft when he says that he is "at peace with whatever happens this season".

He is proof that you can have both talent and character on the same team.

Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 26, 2018, 09:02:00 AM
No, that wasn't your point. You called me out for somehow being against recruiting kids from rough and tumble backgrounds, when I was simply impugning Buzz's lack of control over the culture that led to the assaults. Thank You, Chick..,for saying it better than I could.

No. 

Your implication was that recruiting kids from tough backgrounds leads to more sexual assault issues.  It isn't the "type" of player that Buzz recruited.  It had nothing to do with their background or their junkyard dog mentality.  It had to do with the expectations laid out by the coach for his players and how the coach operates within the regulations of the University. 

In other words, I have absolutely NO problem with recruiting players from rough and tumble backgrounds.  I have a problem with basketball players assaulting other students.   Those aren't mutually exclusive.  You can have both.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2018, 09:02:57 AM
Agreed with the entire post, but I think this underscores why fans (like myself) are becoming more critical this season. The fourth and fifth seasons of the tenures of Jay Wright and John Beilein were when those programs started to show their promise. Wright earned a 1-seed and went to the Elite Eight in season 5. Beilein earned a 4-seed.

Once you have your own guys in there that understand your system, that's when fans want to start seeing results. That's why expectations are up, criticisms will be up, and disappointments will be up if the team doesn't deliver on the promise the coaching staff has indicated is there.

Trying to be like those programs requires not just off-court behavior but also on-court production, and this season is the one when people will be expecting it.

+1

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 09:15:16 AM

No. 

Your implication was that recruiting kids from tough backgrounds leads to more sexual assault issues.  It isn't the "type" of player that Buzz recruited.  It had nothing to do with their background or their junkyard dog mentality.  It had to do with the expectations laid out by the coach for his players and how the coach operates within the regulations of the University. 

In other words, I have absolutely NO problem with recruiting players from rough and tumble backgrounds.  I have a problem with basketball players assaulting other students.   Those aren't mutually exclusive.  You can have both.

I could not have stated it any better than you just did. When I used the phrase "fraught with danger" I truly meant that it is up to the Coach to create an expectation of a standard of behavior... and that Buzz failed in that respect. You are absolutely correct. The sons and daughters of privileged elites are just as likely to have a proclivity for bad behavior.

Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 26, 2018, 09:31:50 AM
I could not have stated it any better than you just did. When I used the phrase "fraught with danger" I truly meant that it is up to the Coach to create an expectation of a standard of behavior... and that Buzz failed in that respect. You are absolutely correct. The sons and daughters of privileged elites are just as likely to have a proclivity for bad behavior.

OK.  Then we agree!  Yay!  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

Quote from: The Lens on November 26, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

Because they didn't want to fire Buzz in 2011.  They forced Cottingham out in June 2011 and hired Larry Williams in December.  LW was supposed to put boundaries around Buzz, some of which were needed, but he did it poorly and clumsily.

If Buzz had a good relationship with LW, or if he "trusted the process" and could have worked with Scholl, he very well could still be the coach now.

Scoopers

The following are my beliefs on the various topics noted in this thread:

1. Re: Al
I have stated numerous times that the Al era should be put in the rearview mirror. That was a once in a lifetime era a lifetime ago.  While I note the Al era, I try to do only do so in threads that talk about the program's history. I love Al, the Al era, but enough is enough. I recommend the brass not to emphasize the Al era moving forward. I love talking Al era with folks who lived it, but I do not know one on here believing it will happen again. That is not being negative, it just factual.

2. Buzz Era
I stated on here many, many times about infractions within the program. If Buzz's lips were moving, he likely was lying. That said, I very much enjoyed the product on the court, from the style of player, style of play and the chip on the shoulder. My love for that era was based 100% off on court success. IMO, MU knew early on that they had a guy that could cause harm to the university as a whole. My only gripe on that is simple, why did it take six years for something to happen to him? MU loved the on court success and hid a potential risk to the school. I said many times, if all allegations against Buzz were true, the school had to fire him. I tend to believe he ran a dirty, or very close to dirty, program and the brass had to know that or should have known that.

3. Direction of program
Again, I stated years ago that I believed MU wanted to do everything in their power to run a very clean program. I 100% support that and only an idiot could argue that. My issue, if I were MU I would have openly addressed where the program was during the Buzz era and outlined a blueprint for success that included doing it the right way. I think they made a mistake in not outing Buzz, but I believe did so to protect themselves.
Running a clean program and being successful can happen. That said, it does not happen quickly, without some luck. It could take a decade or longer to reach that level. I am 1000% fine with that. A great deal of patience, and I believe communication, is needed to have people buy into this model. The patience has been there, but I believe the communication has been lacking.

4. Support of program
I do think that is in poor taste to advice fellow alums to chose another program to root for. While I disagree with many on here, I would hope that I would refrain from telling them "to go support another program". There are many on here that are better fans, more loyal supporters and donors than I am and I respect that. For those that want my support to go elsewhere, that is not going to happen. I was born into in a Marquette family and raised a Marquette family and am very proud of it.

I realize I am a lightning rod to many on here and I do promise to try and refrain from speaking my mind on the program.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 10:15:30 AM

4. Support of program
I do think that is in poor taste to advice fellow alums to chose another program to root for. While I disagree with many on here, I would hope that I would refrain from telling them "to go support another program". There are many on here that are better fans, more loyal supporters and donors than I am and I respect that. For those that want my support to go elsewhere, that is not going to happen. I was born into in a Marquette family and raised a Marquette family and am very proud of it.

I realize I am a lightning rod to many on here and I do promise to try and refrain from speaking my mind on the program.

Wasn't specifically talking to you, Goose.  I was referring to the folks who have said something along the lines of, "I don't care if the kid never attends class, gropes the cheerleaders as he runs onto the court,  and has a felony record as long as Jim McIlvaine's arm.  If he can win games for us, I want him on the team."  I know you're not one of those.

What I meant by saying "go support another program" is that this type of person will never be happy with the type of program that Marquette chooses to run, and would be better served rooting for a team that better aligns with their own philosophy. 

Chick

Several posters have flat out told me to take my support elsewhere. My comment on my post was more general in nature.

Seriously, I'd like a wiki page of all of the "allegations concerning Buzz Williams."

Thanks for the explanation Goose. Agree with a lot of it. My only nit is I don't think we can say nothing happened to Buzz in 6 years. There was a reason why Buzz felt like his happy was messed with and it was long before he left. Probably could have done more but I think some steps were taken

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 26, 2018, 11:12:51 AM
Seriously, I'd like a wiki page of all of the "allegations concerning Buzz Williams."

Honest question... What are all of the allegations? I know about the Sexual Assault cover-up, and a few bar fights. What are the others?

PS: not saying that there needs to be more then the ones above to justify his departure. There just seems to be of references to LOTS of issues.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 10:15:30 AM

If Buzz's lips were moving, he likely was lying.

I'm a Buzz fan and I still want this line printed, framed and hung in the Louvre.  Brilliant and likely true.

Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 26, 2018, 08:58:56 AM
Chick...on the periphery of this win-at-all-costs mentality reside some here who have lamented MU having "AL 2.0" here and our administration dropping the ball and losing him. I resent that comparison.

Let me be clear....I didn't know AL and I don't know any of his family, but by all accounts I know he would not tolerate the culture that was creeping in here. AL got along with most people, and I'd bet he would've got along fine with Buzz. If AL got word of what was going on, however, I would also bet that a breakfast and a stern discussion of what it should mean to coach at Marquette would have been in order.

Coach McGuire knew and lived "tough." Nobody of his day could better relate to kids with rough backgrounds. Sultan and goldeneagle91114, I do understand logic.  It IS dangerous to assume that one's background produces quantifiable negative, predictable behaviors. While AL spoke wistfully of the start of a new year and its attendant "rumors of weed and a girlfriend's pregnancy", AL meant that life happens, and that kids have lives, sometimes messy. He would NOT tolerate rape culture. AL would get all of this through to Coach Williams. And then AL would have handed the breakfast check to Buzz.

You seem like a really nice guy by the tone of your posts.  But, this if F'in embarrassing.

There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch. 

What a pathetic snorefest!!! 🛌💤

Who gives an F to one another's pompous feelings of entitlement?

Lets talk about actual Marquette hoops or shut the F up!!!

No one cares about how invested anyone is or how much more or less they "care" about the program.  Given that anyone is registered to an MU bball message board I think we can all take it as a given that all posters care. 

Why dont you blow hards argue about something more important, like how many souls can fit in a thimble?

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 26, 2018, 12:35:43 PM
You seem like a really nice guy by the tone of your posts.  But, this if F'in embarrassing.

There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch.

None of which happened in this instance.

Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 26, 2018, 12:41:42 PM
None of which happened in this instance.

Go ahead and PM me details of your inside scoop on "this instance."

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 26, 2018, 11:30:30 AM
Honest question... What are all of the allegations? I know about the Sexual Assault cover-up, and a few bar fights. What are the others?

PS: not saying that there needs to be more then the ones above to justify his departure. There just seems to be of references to LOTS of issues.

I 100% agree with this.   That's why I'd like a wiki page dedicated to it.  I think there's a lot of bogus information out there and people have been eating too much Arby's.*



* impossible

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 26, 2018, 12:59:52 PM
Go ahead and PM me details of your inside scoop on "this instance."

Not my story to tell. I'm too sober to be DMing sources and accidentally did that before.

If you'd like to find the editorial piece one of the young ladies' mother wrote about seeing one of the assailants all over getting praise and the effect it's had on her then go ahead but to insinuate there was a prior relationship and a breakup is flat out wrong. At least in this case.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 26, 2018, 01:46:51 PM
I 100% agree with this.   That's why I'd like a wiki page dedicated to it.  I think there's a lot of bogus information out there and people have been eating too much Arby's.*



* impossible

I've worn a hard hat for 5 years because when that other shoe drops, I don't want to get hurt.

Whoa. Good to see scoop in off season form so early in the actual basketball season!

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 26, 2018, 12:35:43 PM
Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch. 

"Perhaps" the wrong approach??? 

No.  It was *CLEARLY* the wrong approach.  He isn't their father and the players aren't his kids.  He is an employee of the University and is beholden to follow University regulations, which if not followed properly, can get the University into serious legal trouble.

Quote from: Floorslapper on November 26, 2018, 12:35:43 PM
There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

There are no "innocent until proven guilty rights" involved.  And as for respecting victims coming forward with allegations...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 02:49:50 PM

"Perhaps" the wrong approach??? 

No.  It was *CLEARLY* the wrong approach.  He isn't their father and the players aren't his kids.  He is an employee of the University and is beholden to follow University regulations, which if not followed properly, can get the University into serious legal trouble.

If a professor did that regarding one of their students, they would be fired on the spot, tenure or no-tenure that would have been a fireable offense. 

There wouldn't be any "well they was acting as a father/mother figure, because they care about their students" it would have been a "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

Quote from: forgetful on November 26, 2018, 02:54:21 PM
If a professor did that regarding one of their students, they would be fired on the spot, tenure or no-tenure that would have been a fireable offense. 

There wouldn't be any "well they was acting as a father/mother figure, because they care about their students" it would have been a "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

Exactly.  Been saying it for years.  Buzz was lucky he wasn't fired for cause right then and there.  Cottingham is the one who went down instead.

Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 26, 2018, 02:52:03 PM

There are no "innocent until proven guilty rights" involved.  And as for respecting victims coming forward with allegations...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151

(https://media.giphy.com/media/90F8aUepslB84/giphy.gif)

As a Buzz backer, I believe he dodged a number of dumpster fires along the way. Honestly, some I think were done to thumb his nose at the brass. His act wore thin quickly and his success on the court prolonged his stay. I am not of the belief that his "happy" was messed with by his superiors. All I do know, we definitely have moved back to the other side of the line.

Quote from: Goose on November 26, 2018, 02:08:39 AM
WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

My opinion is no different than yours.  I'm not questioning your fandom, either.  There are some here that I do and don't think they are even Marquette fans, but in your case you clearly are.

Based on your comments about Marquette trying to run a clean program and win, which you said is in their right and a noble endeavor (we agree), but then also being disappointed with the results is why I suggested maybe MU isn't the program for you. 

It feels like results matter more than running the clean program, at least that is how it is coming off to me. Not in a severe way, but to a degree.  There are some here where results are all that matters and that is embarrassing, but I am not putting you into that camp.  If your expectations have changed as you indicate, then all is good.  If the results don't reach the conclusions you want and you are steadfast the university will remain on the course of a totally above board program, then I'm not sure why you are putting yourself through the pain knowing they aren't changing? I'd say the same for others.

I don't have the background about Buzz Williams, Tom Crean, Steve Wojo or any of the others like some here do.  However, it does seem pretty universal from many people here that Buzz Williams was in trouble more than a few times with the administration, had a reputation for lying constantly, some of his kids got in trouble, and the NCAA also caught his staff breaking some rules.  But he was a great coach.  OK. 

In my view the program can win and be above approach. There are many examples today, and in almost all of them it took a very long time to get to where they are.  Sometimes a 15 to 20 year period, but along the way they still won a lot, now they win all the time.  It would be great to be one of those programs, but do our fans have the patience to do it the right way?  Some do not.

Quote from: The Lens on November 26, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

It takes strong leadership to make difficult choices.  2011 was when Wild was leaving and Pilarz coming in. Pilarz became president the Summer of 2011.  No new president, especially one with no power equity was going to be able to do anything on that front.  The college scene has many instances in which the coach is more powerful than the AD and even the president of the school, at least in terms of political capital.  Pilarz had none at the time, which is to answer your question making it impossible that anything would happen.

From memory, the university was none to happy about that coverage nor should they have been.  Some terrible misjudgment even if coach's intentions were good.  He would have been fired if he were a professor or other administrator.  That was likely the start of the beginning of the end. 

Quote from: WarriorDad on November 27, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
It takes strong leadership to make difficult choices.  2011 was when Wild was leaving and Pilarz coming in. Pilarz became president the Summer of 2011.  No new president, especially one with no power equity was going to be able to do anything on that front.  The college scene has many instances in which the coach is more powerful than the AD and even the president of the school, at least in terms of political capital.  Pilarz had none at the time, which is to answer your question making it impossible that anything would happen.

From memory, the university was none to happy about that coverage nor should they have been.  Some terrible misjudgment even if coach's intentions were good.  He would have been fired if he were a professor or other administrator.  That was likely the start of the beginning of the end.

Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president. 

Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 27, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president. 

You are correct that the president is the most powerful person on campus - they can up and fire the basketball coach anytime they like as long as it is under the terms of their contract.

But Chicos is 100% right about political capital.  Firing a winning coach with a nicely crafted public image is hard because of the consequences.  The coaches allies get angry, especially the program's boosters.  Why do you think successful coaches get away with stuff and aren't punished for it?  I mean, Pitino survived multiple scandals involving himself and his players and nothing happened to him until his assistant was under federal investigation.

Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 27, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president.

OK chico, whatever you say.


Joe Paterno, for years, was the most powerful man at Penn State.  The Freeh Report alludes to this very statement I made in which the coach is more powerful than the administrators, including the president.

Nick Saban is more powerful than the Alabama president.  Fullstop

Based on Urban Meyer's 3 game suspension, Urban Meyer is more powerful than OSU's president.

Even the example you used, the Indiana president kept giving him leash after leash that no one else under his administration would have received.  Ultimately Knight crossed the 4th or 5th line he couldn't cross, but he was afforded chances others do not.

It takes a powerful president to fire an all powerful coach, a president that can survive such a decision.  One with political equity and backing.  Pilarz became president August of 2011, but was named successor to Wild the year prior. He had no power yet, nothing of any real substance. 

Yes, a president has the ultimate power to fire, but that doesn't mean they can in the real world where political capital is needed.  I didn't think this was a difficult subject, but for some apparently it is.