Cardinal Virtues

[brewcity77]

I agree with all of this .. though "finding out sooner than later" == losing enough to light the torches and gather pitchforks. 

The amount of "I want to be proven wrong" is at an all time high in 2018.

I feel like I've given plenty of faith over the past few years. I've trusted the process and feel now is the time for results to be delivered. Barring injury, Markus will leave Marquette as the all-time leading scorer by a wide margin. He should have the record by 400+ points when all's said and done. Sam will likely be a top-10, if not top-5 all-time scorer. Every deficit this team has had has supposedly been addressed with guys like Morrow and Chartouny. We have a plethora of bigs with varied skills, from bruisers like John to technically sound players like Heldt to our inside-out option in stud recruit Hauser.

I don't want to be proven wrong. I want to be proven right. I want this team to contend for the Big East now and for a National Title within the next two years. I want Wojo to land that high-profile recruit he's been after, maybe Jalen Johnson or Patrick Baldwin, that singular talent that can join an experienced roster and show that we can compete with Villanova and other high level programs.

It's always more fun to be right. I've pounded the drum that this can work and the vision has promise for years. Much rather be right. But if I'm not, let's get that sorted this year rather than next.

[Floorslapper]

LOL!  JJJ doesn't count because he was a freshman and a 5-star. LMAO.

There used to be poster around here that would strongly--you might even say incessantly-- disagree with you on this point.  Of course, you weren't around to see him because he was banned from this board an other boards multiple times for literally being too obnoxious to be allowed to stay.

Anyway, he would scream continuously--and I mean, scream, like in every single thread, no matter what the actually topic was--about Buzz nailing JJJ to the bench.  Everybody else, with the exception of this poster's BFF, could see that JJJ was a complete liability on floor, but that didn't stop the poster from making this argument to the point of polluting every thread and making the board unreadable.

But Buzz left, and wouldn't you know it?  JJJ became a productive player his final two seasons under Wojo.  But those don't count, because...reasons.

This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

[BM1090]

This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

A 10-14% jump in FG% and a 18% increase in 3P FG% is a "slight uptick". Got it.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

A 10-14% jump in FG% and a 18% increase in 3P FG% is a "slight uptick". Got it.

None of those improvements count.  You see, JJJ was a Freshman.  And he was a 5-star.  Also, Wojo has assistant coaches, so doesn't count.

Theo doesn't count either.  Neither does Sacar, or Markus.  Sam doesn't count, obviously.  And Rowsey doesn't count, duh.

[skianth16]

It's always more fun to be right. I've pounded the drum that this can work and the vision has promise for years. Much rather be right. But if I'm not, let's get that sorted this year rather than next.

It's always more fun to win. Even Louisville fans would agree.

I appreciate your ability to be objective and to actually let game tape impact your feedback.

[GGGG]

JJJ came in as a borderline 5-star talent.  Was virtually assured to become a good player.  I'd say JJJ underachieved his ability actually, and that had a lot to do with Wojo.

He improved every year under Wojo.  It's statistically obvious. 

Really the whole "no one improves under Wojo" is absurd hyperbole.  You make a lot of good arguments.  This isn't one of them.

[GGGG]

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

Tin-foil hat nonsense.

[Newsdreams]

This is funny for many reasons.  You do realize you whine incessantly and obnoxiously about political viewpoints that differ from your own?  The irony of you calling another a pud, obnoxious, argumentative, incessant is quite rich.

As for the poster you mention who's been banned several times for ripping Buzz his last year and Wojo.  What you'd find:

He's was one of Buzz's biggest fans, and was called a kool aid drinker/fanboy/etc., by the elite Intellgencia - because I defended Buzz 95% of the time - so much so some asked if I was related to him/friends with him.

Five games into Buzz's coaching career, I'd said the guy had it and could likely lead us to Final Fours/Elite 8's

Raised a major issue with Larry Williams was rocking the boat and admin was alienating Buzz (the elitist Intellgencia here called me a tin foil hat guy.)

Posted halfway through Buzz's last season that something wasn't right with Buzz (JJJ's freshman year), based on the way he was coaching.  The elitist Intelligencia once again called me an idiot.

I posted 5 games into Wojo's career that he didn't have it.  Been highly critical of Wojo since that time.  Sure as hell doesn't look like he's any kind of special coach through 4 years and his 5th is off to a shaky start.

But back to your original ill-conceived point:  Buzz Williams has one season that is a major outlier from his track record as a head coach.  It was his last at MU.  It wasn't by coincidence.  Buzz gave MU admin a big F-You on the way out the door.  He wanted to be at MU long term and the elitist/self-righteous in Admin were threatened and wanted him gone.  I put zero stock in how Buzz coached that last team.

That all aside - 5-star recruits usually turn out to be pretty good players.  Wojo and staff and JJJ for 3-years.  A slight uptick in year over year production with uptick in playing time isn't proof of some magical coaching.  And the facts are what they are:  It was Brett Nelson who rebuilt JJJ's shot and it was Stan Johnson that kept him at MU.

Is this InfoWars??

[Floorslapper]

He improved every year under Wojo.  It's statistically obvious. 

Really the whole "no one improves under Wojo" is absurd hyperbole.  You make a lot of good arguments.  This isn't one of them.

I would argue that the level of improvement some want to suggest under Wojo is hyperbole.  The topic came up around expecting Cain to take a "major" step forward.

Sam came in a great shooter.  Markus too.

Markus O-Rating declined every year thus far.

Sam's O-Rating has ranged from 127.8 to 130.4 and back to 127.8 this year - which I did say also included a slight uptick in usage.

Sacar's O-Rating this year is worse than it was as a freshman, and he had a redshirt year.

Theo's O-Rating is equal this year to last.  His Block rate is off the charts good - yet I can't say coaching has much to do with shot blocking.  I've noted in a previous post that Theo has been a bright spot for this team.

Matt Heldt? 

As for JJJ - His numbers plummeted in Wojo's first year on the job - which was JJJ's sophomore year.  His numbers as a freshman weren't that much different than he finished as a senior as it relates to shooting percentages.  JJJ's eFG as a frosh was 50%.  He finished at 52.9% as a senior.

[Floorslapper]

Is this InfoWars??

I'm not familiar with InfoWars - just telling you the factual history of my time posting as Ners.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Matt Heldt improved each of his three years here. The talent at his position passed him up this season.

Shot blocking has nothing to do with coaching? That's a poor take. Theo couldn't defend without fouling last season. Coaching can absolutely help improve that.

As usage goes up, efficiency goes down. So if a player's efficiency stays the same while increasing usage,  that would signify improvement.

[Silent Verbal]

Matt Heldt improved each of his three years here. The talent at his position passed him up this season.

Shot blocking has nothing to do with coaching? That's a poor take. Theo couldn't defend without fouling last season. Coaching can absolutely help improve that.

As usage goes up, efficiency goes down. So if a player's efficiency stays the same while increasing usage,  that would signify improvement.

To say Matt Heldt has "improved" each year is a stretch.  He came in as the 12th man, and he'll leave that way.  Sure, he doesn't set moving screens every time we have the ball anymore and he's a surprisingly good free throw shooter, but other than 5 fouls, he doesn't have much to offer this year's team. 

Personally, I think the whole "nobody improves" argument is tiresome, because it's said about literally every college coach by every fan base when they're looking for things to complain about.  I'm obviously not one of the people in Wojo's corner, but I don't believe talent development is an area where he's particularly lacking.  Nobody's really regressed under his watch and guys seem to be statistically better year by year, for the most part.  We just need better talent.  No coach in the world could turn Sacar into Wes Matthews.

[Herman Cain]

It's actually true. When we win, there are 10-15 posters that don't comment.
When we lose those same 10-15 come out of the wood work and rip everything. I feel bad for them and their kids. It's almost like they don't want to give any praise to our players at all.

I can only assume they also have never give any praise to their own kids.

(Insert argument: I'm not going to praise them! That's like a participation award.)

I enjoy it when that group re-emerge, they liven the place up.

[Floorslapper]

Tin-foil hat nonsense.

Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

[Galway Eagle]

Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

lets pretend youre correct, what does that say about the petty character of the guy that claimed to love his players so much?

[BM1090]

Let's also not pretend that 10-11 was a flawless year for Buzz. Team had some preseason hype. Struggled in non non conference with Bucknell. No big non con wins. 9-9 in admittedly very good conference. Needed to beat WVU in the conference tournament to get in as one of the last teams in.

Won 2 games in the NCAA tournament which saved that season and was fun to watch. But that season was largely frustration.

[forgetful]

Let's also not pretend that 10-11 was a flawless year for Buzz. Team had some preseason hype. Struggled in non non conference with Bucknell. No big non con wins. 9-9 in admittedly very good conference. Needed to beat WVU in the conference tournament to get in as one of the last teams in.

Won 2 games in the NCAA tournament which saved that season and was fun to watch. But that season was largely frustration.

Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

[Floorslapper]

Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

Forgetful living up to his chosen username.  NCAA seeds:  6, 6, 11, 3, 3.  And the 11 made a Sweet 16.  Buzz recruited that "ton" of NBA talent to MU.  Buzz got every ounce of ability out of his players.

Took a team with Mo Acker and David Cubillian at guard position with 7 available players to a 6 seed.

Amusing to read Wojo's fanboys try to diminish Buzz's accomplishments.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Buzz had a ton of NBA talent during his stay at MU. He was widely regarded as "team bubble watch" for consistently being on the brink of missing the tournament. 

Based on the talent on those rosters, one would think we would have been tournament locks.

This was a bit of a misnomer.  The Ken Pom rankings for those teams were very high and many were getting used to the consistently large number of bids earned by the Big East. Frankly we didn't know what being on the bubble meant. 

[brewcity77]

Forgetful living up to his chosen username.  NCAA seeds:  6, 6, 11, 3, 3.  And the 11 made a Sweet 16.  Buzz recruited that "ton" of NBA talent to MU.  Buzz got every ounce of ability out of his players.

Took a team with Mo Acker and David Cubillian at guard position with 7 available players to a 6 seed.

Amusing to read Wojo's fanboys try to diminish Buzz's accomplishments.

Team bubble watch started with that Acker/Cubillan team and you're lying if you don't think it was appropriate. We were 11-8 (2-5) when Andy Glockner, who wrote the segments for SI at the time, still had us on the bubble and was predicting we would make the tournament despite our decidedly unworthy resume. That was at the end of January.

We then won 9/10 games, though only one win was over a NCAA team, a streak that included the incredible three consecutive overtime wins on the road. When we beat Louisville on March 2 (the walk it out game) we pretty much knew we were in, but before that we were squarely on the bubble because we had a dearth of quality wins (only 2 over NCAA teams, Xavier & Georgetown, before UL).

The next year we were one of the last teams in, so again, an appropriate label. We finally shed it in 2011-12 when we earned a 3-seed, but you're lying to yourself if you don't think the moniker was aptly given.

[GGGG]

Just as you said when I warned that Larry Williams was pissing Buzz off and, that Buzz's relationship with MU was deteriorating quickly as a result.

You of course are welcome to your opinion on Buzz's last season at MU, but it is the ONE season in his 11 years as a head coach where his team underperformed (and massively) expectations.

Smart people don't peddle dumba$$ opinions.  Your opinion that Buzz was not coaching his best to stick it to Marquette's administration is one dumba$$ opinion.

Here's why:

1.  It goes against everything that Buzz has preached as a coach.  He wouldn't do that to his players.  He wouldn't be a hypocrite.

2.  There are various bits and pieces regarding that last season that I have heard that lead me to believe that he was not out the door as early as people think he was.  When Larry was out in December 2013, he thought he "won."  He thought he was going going to be here awhile.

3.  He did not have the team he thought he was going to have just a few months before the season began.  He would have had Vander and Jameel, but Vander left to go pro and Jameel left after the intrasquad.  He didn't underachieve intentionally.  He underachieved because he was short of quality players.

So again, you are entitled to whatever opinions you want.  But your opinion of Buzz's last year is seriously uninformed. 

[Floorslapper]

Team bubble watch started with that Acker/Cubillan team and you're lying if you don't think it was appropriate. We were 11-8 (2-5) when Andy Glockner, who wrote the segments for SI at the time, still had us on the bubble and was predicting we would make the tournament despite our decidedly unworthy resume. That was at the end of January.

We then won 9/10 games, though only one win was over a NCAA team, a streak that included the incredible three consecutive overtime wins on the road. When we beat Louisville on March 2 (the walk it out game) we pretty much knew we were in, but before that we were squarely on the bubble because we had a dearth of quality wins (only 2 over NCAA teams, Xavier & Georgetown, before UL).

The next year we were one of the last teams in, so again, an appropriate label. We finally shed it in 2011-12 when we earned a 3-seed, but you're lying to yourself if you don't think the moniker was aptly given.

Certainly can look at it this way, and as a result, at best:  Two bubble teams of 5 NCAA teams under Buzz, one of those "bubble" teams earned a 6 seed, and did win 9 of 10 in the real Big East.  (Meanwhile, through 4 seasons with Wojo, we are still waiting for our coach to led us to 3 regular season Big East wins in a row, in the watered down Big East.)

Buzz could flat out coach and that is proven out.  One year stands out as a major outlier where Buzz massively underperformed expectations. Some of you see it as a coincidence - I don't. 

[GGGG]

Buzz could flat out coach and that is proven out.  One year stands out as a major outlier where Buzz massively underperformed expectations. Some of you see it as a coincidence - I don't. 

I don't see it as a coincidence.  However there are logical reasons why he underperformed. 

[Goose]

Ners

I never thought Buzz could coach, but he got players and they played hard for him. Big fan of his time here, but being a coaching guru is not something I buy into. I loved the type of player and the style played during his time here.

[Floorslapper]

Smart people don't peddle dumba$$ opinions.  Your opinion that Buzz was not coaching his best to stick it to Marquette's administration is one dumba$$ opinion.

Here's why:

1.  It goes against everything that Buzz has preached as a coach.  He wouldn't do that to his players.  He wouldn't be a hypocrite.

2.  There are various bits and pieces regarding that last season that I have heard that lead me to believe that he was not out the door as early as people think he was.  When Larry was out in December 2013, he thought he "won."  He thought he was going going to be here awhile.

3.  He did not have the team he thought he was going to have just a few months before the season began.  He would have had Vander and Jameel, but Vander left to go pro and Jameel left after the intrasquad.  He didn't underachieve intentionally.  He underachieved because he was short of quality players.

So again, you are entitled to whatever opinions you want.  But your opinion of Buzz's last year is seriously uninformed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just that - an opinion.

If you believe Buzz was able to negotiate his contract (without an agent) in a matter of weeks, have at it.

If you believe Buzz pulling Deonte Burton from our Big East 1st round tournament game, in a game Deonte was dominant, with 7 minutes left and not putting him back in until 30 seconds left made sense, have at it.

If you believe Buzz legitimately felt maxing out a starting backcourt of Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas with 70+% of available minutes that season was a formula for victory, have at it.  (One guy couldn't make a 2pt FG, the other guy couldn't make a 3pt FG.)

If you believe Buzz truly felt he could win while playing 4 on 5 - his words - have at it.

When a guy is disgruntled at his job, and at major odds with his boss/employer - how he handles things is usually radically different than his primary M.O.  Sadly the players of that season go the short end of the stick.  As I recall, Jamil and Davante didn't even say thanks to Buzz in their Senior Day speeches.