Cardinal Virtues

[Goose]

As a Buzz backer, I believe he dodged a number of dumpster fires along the way. Honestly, some I think were done to thumb his nose at the brass. His act wore thin quickly and his success on the court prolonged his stay. I am not of the belief that his "happy" was messed with by his superiors. All I do know, we definitely have moved back to the other side of the line.

[WarriorDad]

WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

My opinion is no different than yours.  I'm not questioning your fandom, either.  There are some here that I do and don't think they are even Marquette fans, but in your case you clearly are.

Based on your comments about Marquette trying to run a clean program and win, which you said is in their right and a noble endeavor (we agree), but then also being disappointed with the results is why I suggested maybe MU isn't the program for you. 

It feels like results matter more than running the clean program, at least that is how it is coming off to me. Not in a severe way, but to a degree.  There are some here where results are all that matters and that is embarrassing, but I am not putting you into that camp.  If your expectations have changed as you indicate, then all is good.  If the results don't reach the conclusions you want and you are steadfast the university will remain on the course of a totally above board program, then I'm not sure why you are putting yourself through the pain knowing they aren't changing? I'd say the same for others.

I don't have the background about Buzz Williams, Tom Crean, Steve Wojo or any of the others like some here do.  However, it does seem pretty universal from many people here that Buzz Williams was in trouble more than a few times with the administration, had a reputation for lying constantly, some of his kids got in trouble, and the NCAA also caught his staff breaking some rules.  But he was a great coach.  OK. 

In my view the program can win and be above approach. There are many examples today, and in almost all of them it took a very long time to get to where they are.  Sometimes a 15 to 20 year period, but along the way they still won a lot, now they win all the time.  It would be great to be one of those programs, but do our fans have the patience to do it the right way?  Some do not.

[WarriorDad]

If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

It takes strong leadership to make difficult choices.  2011 was when Wild was leaving and Pilarz coming in. Pilarz became president the Summer of 2011.  No new president, especially one with no power equity was going to be able to do anything on that front.  The college scene has many instances in which the coach is more powerful than the AD and even the president of the school, at least in terms of political capital.  Pilarz had none at the time, which is to answer your question making it impossible that anything would happen.

From memory, the university was none to happy about that coverage nor should they have been.  Some terrible misjudgment even if coach's intentions were good.  He would have been fired if he were a professor or other administrator.  That was likely the start of the beginning of the end. 

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

It takes strong leadership to make difficult choices.  2011 was when Wild was leaving and Pilarz coming in. Pilarz became president the Summer of 2011.  No new president, especially one with no power equity was going to be able to do anything on that front.  The college scene has many instances in which the coach is more powerful than the AD and even the president of the school, at least in terms of political capital.  Pilarz had none at the time, which is to answer your question making it impossible that anything would happen.

From memory, the university was none to happy about that coverage nor should they have been.  Some terrible misjudgment even if coach's intentions were good.  He would have been fired if he were a professor or other administrator.  That was likely the start of the beginning of the end.

Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president. 

[GGGG]

Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president. 

You are correct that the president is the most powerful person on campus - they can up and fire the basketball coach anytime they like as long as it is under the terms of their contract.

But Chicos is 100% right about political capital.  Firing a winning coach with a nicely crafted public image is hard because of the consequences.  The coaches allies get angry, especially the program's boosters.  Why do you think successful coaches get away with stuff and aren't punished for it?  I mean, Pitino survived multiple scandals involving himself and his players and nothing happened to him until his assistant was under federal investigation.

[WarriorDad]

Horrible as always chico.  No coach is more powerful than the president.  U of all fan boys should know this from Bob Knight.  And there are many other instances.  More power than Ads sure, than president.

OK chico, whatever you say.


Joe Paterno, for years, was the most powerful man at Penn State.  The Freeh Report alludes to this very statement I made in which the coach is more powerful than the administrators, including the president.

Nick Saban is more powerful than the Alabama president.  Fullstop

Based on Urban Meyer's 3 game suspension, Urban Meyer is more powerful than OSU's president.

Even the example you used, the Indiana president kept giving him leash after leash that no one else under his administration would have received.  Ultimately Knight crossed the 4th or 5th line he couldn't cross, but he was afforded chances others do not.

It takes a powerful president to fire an all powerful coach, a president that can survive such a decision.  One with political equity and backing.  Pilarz became president August of 2011, but was named successor to Wild the year prior. He had no power yet, nothing of any real substance. 

Yes, a president has the ultimate power to fire, but that doesn't mean they can in the real world where political capital is needed.  I didn't think this was a difficult subject, but for some apparently it is.