Cardinal Virtues

[goldeneagle91114]

Agreed with the entire post, but I think this underscores why fans (like myself) are becoming more critical this season. The fourth and fifth seasons of the tenures of Jay Wright and John Beilein were when those programs started to show their promise. Wright earned a 1-seed and went to the Elite Eight in season 5. Beilein earned a 4-seed.

Once you have your own guys in there that understand your system, that's when fans want to start seeing results. That's why expectations are up, criticisms will be up, and disappointments will be up if the team doesn't deliver on the promise the coaching staff has indicated is there.

Trying to be like those programs requires not just off-court behavior but also on-court production, and this season is the one when people will be expecting it.

+1

[NorthernDancerColt]

No. 

Your implication was that recruiting kids from tough backgrounds leads to more sexual assault issues.  It isn't the "type" of player that Buzz recruited.  It had nothing to do with their background or their junkyard dog mentality.  It had to do with the expectations laid out by the coach for his players and how the coach operates within the regulations of the University. 

In other words, I have absolutely NO problem with recruiting players from rough and tumble backgrounds.  I have a problem with basketball players assaulting other students.   Those aren't mutually exclusive.  You can have both.

I could not have stated it any better than you just did. When I used the phrase "fraught with danger" I truly meant that it is up to the Coach to create an expectation of a standard of behavior... and that Buzz failed in that respect. You are absolutely correct. The sons and daughters of privileged elites are just as likely to have a proclivity for bad behavior.

[GGGG]

I could not have stated it any better than you just did. When I used the phrase "fraught with danger" I truly meant that it is up to the Coach to create an expectation of a standard of behavior... and that Buzz failed in that respect. You are absolutely correct. The sons and daughters of privileged elites are just as likely to have a proclivity for bad behavior.

OK.  Then we agree!  Yay!  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[The Lens]

If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

[GGGG]

If MU wanted to get clean why didn't it sever ties with Buzz when we were on the front page of the Chicago Tribune (June of 2011)?

Instead they waited 3 years later, until his conference record fell to 9-9 and they opened the door for him to leave.

In between MU went 28-8 in the prime of the Big East, made the S16 and the E8.

If Vander stays, and MU goes 13-5 in conf in 2014 does MU still clean up its program?

Because they didn't want to fire Buzz in 2011.  They forced Cottingham out in June 2011 and hired Larry Williams in December.  LW was supposed to put boundaries around Buzz, some of which were needed, but he did it poorly and clumsily.

If Buzz had a good relationship with LW, or if he "trusted the process" and could have worked with Scholl, he very well could still be the coach now.

[Goose]

Scoopers

The following are my beliefs on the various topics noted in this thread:

1. Re: Al
I have stated numerous times that the Al era should be put in the rearview mirror. That was a once in a lifetime era a lifetime ago.  While I note the Al era, I try to do only do so in threads that talk about the program's history. I love Al, the Al era, but enough is enough. I recommend the brass not to emphasize the Al era moving forward. I love talking Al era with folks who lived it, but I do not know one on here believing it will happen again. That is not being negative, it just factual.

2. Buzz Era
I stated on here many, many times about infractions within the program. If Buzz's lips were moving, he likely was lying. That said, I very much enjoyed the product on the court, from the style of player, style of play and the chip on the shoulder. My love for that era was based 100% off on court success. IMO, MU knew early on that they had a guy that could cause harm to the university as a whole. My only gripe on that is simple, why did it take six years for something to happen to him? MU loved the on court success and hid a potential risk to the school. I said many times, if all allegations against Buzz were true, the school had to fire him. I tend to believe he ran a dirty, or very close to dirty, program and the brass had to know that or should have known that.

3. Direction of program
Again, I stated years ago that I believed MU wanted to do everything in their power to run a very clean program. I 100% support that and only an idiot could argue that. My issue, if I were MU I would have openly addressed where the program was during the Buzz era and outlined a blueprint for success that included doing it the right way. I think they made a mistake in not outing Buzz, but I believe did so to protect themselves.
Running a clean program and being successful can happen. That said, it does not happen quickly, without some luck. It could take a decade or longer to reach that level. I am 1000% fine with that. A great deal of patience, and I believe communication, is needed to have people buy into this model. The patience has been there, but I believe the communication has been lacking.

4. Support of program
I do think that is in poor taste to advice fellow alums to chose another program to root for. While I disagree with many on here, I would hope that I would refrain from telling them "to go support another program". There are many on here that are better fans, more loyal supporters and donors than I am and I respect that. For those that want my support to go elsewhere, that is not going to happen. I was born into in a Marquette family and raised a Marquette family and am very proud of it.

I realize I am a lightning rod to many on here and I do promise to try and refrain from speaking my mind on the program.

[warriorchick]

4. Support of program
I do think that is in poor taste to advice fellow alums to chose another program to root for. While I disagree with many on here, I would hope that I would refrain from telling them "to go support another program". There are many on here that are better fans, more loyal supporters and donors than I am and I respect that. For those that want my support to go elsewhere, that is not going to happen. I was born into in a Marquette family and raised a Marquette family and am very proud of it.

I realize I am a lightning rod to many on here and I do promise to try and refrain from speaking my mind on the program.

Wasn't specifically talking to you, Goose.  I was referring to the folks who have said something along the lines of, "I don't care if the kid never attends class, gropes the cheerleaders as he runs onto the court,  and has a felony record as long as Jim McIlvaine's arm.  If he can win games for us, I want him on the team."  I know you're not one of those.

What I meant by saying "go support another program" is that this type of person will never be happy with the type of program that Marquette chooses to run, and would be better served rooting for a team that better aligns with their own philosophy. 

[Goose]

Chick

Several posters have flat out told me to take my support elsewhere. My comment on my post was more general in nature.

[mu_hilltopper]

Seriously, I'd like a wiki page of all of the "allegations concerning Buzz Williams."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thanks for the explanation Goose. Agree with a lot of it. My only nit is I don't think we can say nothing happened to Buzz in 6 years. There was a reason why Buzz felt like his happy was messed with and it was long before he left. Probably could have done more but I think some steps were taken

[goldeneagle91114]

Seriously, I'd like a wiki page of all of the "allegations concerning Buzz Williams."

Honest question... What are all of the allegations? I know about the Sexual Assault cover-up, and a few bar fights. What are the others?

PS: not saying that there needs to be more then the ones above to justify his departure. There just seems to be of references to LOTS of issues.

[The Lens]

If Buzz's lips were moving, he likely was lying.

I'm a Buzz fan and I still want this line printed, framed and hung in the Louvre.  Brilliant and likely true.

[Floorslapper]

Chick...on the periphery of this win-at-all-costs mentality reside some here who have lamented MU having "AL 2.0" here and our administration dropping the ball and losing him. I resent that comparison.

Let me be clear....I didn't know AL and I don't know any of his family, but by all accounts I know he would not tolerate the culture that was creeping in here. AL got along with most people, and I'd bet he would've got along fine with Buzz. If AL got word of what was going on, however, I would also bet that a breakfast and a stern discussion of what it should mean to coach at Marquette would have been in order.

Coach McGuire knew and lived "tough." Nobody of his day could better relate to kids with rough backgrounds. Sultan and goldeneagle91114, I do understand logic.  It IS dangerous to assume that one's background produces quantifiable negative, predictable behaviors. While AL spoke wistfully of the start of a new year and its attendant "rumors of weed and a girlfriend's pregnancy", AL meant that life happens, and that kids have lives, sometimes messy. He would NOT tolerate rape culture. AL would get all of this through to Coach Williams. And then AL would have handed the breakfast check to Buzz.

You seem like a really nice guy by the tone of your posts.  But, this if F'in embarrassing.

There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch. 

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

What a pathetic snorefest!!! 🛌💤

Who gives an F to one another's pompous feelings of entitlement?

Lets talk about actual Marquette hoops or shut the F up!!!

No one cares about how invested anyone is or how much more or less they "care" about the program.  Given that anyone is registered to an MU bball message board I think we can all take it as a given that all posters care. 

Why dont you blow hards argue about something more important, like how many souls can fit in a thimble?

[Galway Eagle]

You seem like a really nice guy by the tone of your posts.  But, this if F'in embarrassing.

There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch.

None of which happened in this instance.

[Floorslapper]

None of which happened in this instance.

Go ahead and PM me details of your inside scoop on "this instance."

[mu_hilltopper]

Honest question... What are all of the allegations? I know about the Sexual Assault cover-up, and a few bar fights. What are the others?

PS: not saying that there needs to be more then the ones above to justify his departure. There just seems to be of references to LOTS of issues.

I 100% agree with this.   That's why I'd like a wiki page dedicated to it.  I think there's a lot of bogus information out there and people have been eating too much Arby's.*



* impossible

[Galway Eagle]

Go ahead and PM me details of your inside scoop on "this instance."

Not my story to tell. I'm too sober to be DMing sources and accidentally did that before.

If you'd like to find the editorial piece one of the young ladies' mother wrote about seeing one of the assailants all over getting praise and the effect it's had on her then go ahead but to insinuate there was a prior relationship and a breakup is flat out wrong. At least in this case.

[The Lens]

I 100% agree with this.   That's why I'd like a wiki page dedicated to it.  I think there's a lot of bogus information out there and people have been eating too much Arby's.*



* impossible

I've worn a hard hat for 5 years because when that other shoe drops, I don't want to get hurt.

[fjm]

Whoa. Good to see scoop in off season form so early in the actual basketball season!

[GGGG]

Buzz handled the situation like a father - he wanted to get his "kids" together and get their understanding of the situation.  Perhaps the wrong approach, yet I suspect many Dad's here would operate the same way if their son was accused of rape/sexual assault.

A coach can only have SO much control over what his players do off his watch. 

"Perhaps" the wrong approach??? 

No.  It was *CLEARLY* the wrong approach.  He isn't their father and the players aren't his kids.  He is an employee of the University and is beholden to follow University regulations, which if not followed properly, can get the University into serious legal trouble.

[GGGG]

There was no "rape culture" under Buzz.  The complexity around sexual assault allegations, particularly on a college campus, are many.  We need to respect victims coming forward with allegations, yet we also need to respect a person's innocent until proven guilty rights.  When you have alcohol involved and 18-22 year olds with previous dating histories re-uniting after a break up, there are many layers involved.

There are no "innocent until proven guilty rights" involved.  And as for respecting victims coming forward with allegations...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151

[forgetful]

"Perhaps" the wrong approach??? 

No.  It was *CLEARLY* the wrong approach.  He isn't their father and the players aren't his kids.  He is an employee of the University and is beholden to follow University regulations, which if not followed properly, can get the University into serious legal trouble.

If a professor did that regarding one of their students, they would be fired on the spot, tenure or no-tenure that would have been a fireable offense. 

There wouldn't be any "well they was acting as a father/mother figure, because they care about their students" it would have been a "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

[GGGG]

If a professor did that regarding one of their students, they would be fired on the spot, tenure or no-tenure that would have been a fireable offense. 

There wouldn't be any "well they was acting as a father/mother figure, because they care about their students" it would have been a "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

Exactly.  Been saying it for years.  Buzz was lucky he wasn't fired for cause right then and there.  Cottingham is the one who went down instead.

[jesmu84]

There are no "innocent until proven guilty rights" involved.  And as for respecting victims coming forward with allegations...

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27353.msg312151#msg312151