Cardinal Virtues

[Goose]

WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

[Galway Eagle]

WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

I'd say "7 years ago I realized MU was no longer a basketball school" and "buzz what right about the Big East it it just took longer to get there" are two immaculate posts that lead some posters to suggest finding a new program for you.

[Goose]

Galway
My family has an extremely long and deep rooted history with Marquette University. Some of that basketball involved, but all involved in supporting the University. I believe we have over twenty grads at MU, multiple faculty positions held and direct involvement with the basketball programs history.
I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

[Galway Eagle]

Galway
My family has an extremely long and deep rooted history with Marquette University. Some of that basketball involved, but all involved in supporting the University. I believe we have over twenty grads at MU, multiple faculty positions held and direct involvement with the basketball programs history.
I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

Goose I wasn't the one who suggested you find a new team I was answering your post so cut the crap of me questioning your love for MU.

Now questioning your logic in those posts I answered, I'll happily plead guilty to that.

Congrats on the entrenched MU family, it doesn't really reflect on you as an individual. Heck my best friend has a family almost as entrenched with MU as you and he couldn't care less about the BBall team so the notion that you having so much family makes you more loyal or a better fan is 100% lost on me.

[Goose]

Galway

Only because I am awaiting a Skype call, I will take your bait and respond. I can assure you that I am NOT a better fan than you are. I can also assure you that I am NOT more loyal than you are as a fan. Not exactly sure where or how that was implied in any of my posts.
My point is quite simple, I love MU regardless of it is a basketball school or not. Thanks for sharing that interesting sidebar of your best friend and his family, it added a lot to your post.

[Galway Eagle]

Galway

Only because I am awaiting a Skype call, I will take your bait and respond. I can assure you that I am NOT a better fan than you are. I can also assure you that I am NOT more loyal than you are as a fan. Not exactly sure where or how that was implied in any of my posts.
My point is quite simple, I love MU regardless of it is a basketball school or not. Thanks for sharing that interesting sidebar of your best friend and his family, it added a lot to your post.

Goose,

None of that is meant to be baiting, you implied I was one of the posters telling you to find a new team, I told you to cut that out as I have not been.

I admitted what i was questioning.

The sidebar was about as relevant as your point about your family, in that it makes no difference how it affects your relationship with MU as an individual.

Enjoy your skype call.

[Goose]

Galway
I never implied anything about you in any posts. WarriorDad has mentioned several times that I should find a new program to follow and my post was addressed to him, but you felt the need to respond.

[Galway Eagle]

Galway
I never implied anything about you in any posts. WarriorDad has mentioned several times that I should find a new program to follow and my post was addressed to him, but you felt the need to respond.

I really do not think I need advice or suggestions on whom I should support or not support as a basketball program. You may not like my comments, but never question my love of the University.

What is the above? Looks like implying I was questioning your loyalty to me.

I responded because your post asked "what (you) said that is not accurate". Felt that was open to anyone to respond to so I did. Which still hasn't been actually covered as the reply was just about how you love MU not about the quotes in question.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

WarriorDad
Curious, why is your opinion more valid than mine? Barring you having written documents outlining the big picture for the program, what makes you correct? You, TAMU and a couple of others flat out disagree with premise and I am fine with that. I think you folks are inaccurate, but feel free to post away.

I am curious on exactly what I have said that is not accurate. Does MU have an extremely high desire for a clean program? Does MU have a win at all cost mindset?
I have said multiple times MU wants to have successful ball team, but want it done the right way. I really am confused on your need to single out my posts and tell me to find a new program to support.

I don't flat out disagree with you. I disagreed with something you said that you later clarified to mean something different than what I originally perceived.

Marquette absolutely wants a clean program. They also want to win at a high level. If Wojo fails at either,  he will be gone.

I don't know if you're meaning for this to happen,  but the perception I'm getting from your posts is that you believe because MU values a clean program that it cannot win at a high level. I think that's what people are reacting to.

[Goose]

TAMU

I believe MU believes they can have an extreme clean program and win at the highest level. I have no doubt they want that to happen. I believe that it can happen, but it takes a long, long, long time and a lot of luck. In addition, having the perfect coach that is going to last 12+ years is essential

As I have noted, and been bashed for, this was a decision made quite some time ago. My only gripe on the whole situation, I believe the University misleads it's faithful a tad. If all of my claims are true, which I do believe, sharing the long term for the program would have been a great idea. IMO, it was not shared because they were hiding some issues from Buzz era, and they feared the new direction might scare away some folks.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Since they are scared to share it would you mind sharing this new direction? I'm not sure what that means.

[NorthernDancerColt]

TAMU

I believe MU believes they can have an extreme clean program and win at the highest level. I have no doubt they want that to happen. I believe that it can happen, but it takes a long, long, long time and a lot of luck. In addition, having the perfect coach that is going to last 12+ years is essential

As I have noted, and been bashed for, this was a decision made quite some time ago. My only gripe on the whole situation, I believe the University misleads it's faithful a tad. If all of my claims are true, which I do believe, sharing the long term for the program would have been a great idea. IMO, it was not shared because they were hiding some issues from Buzz era, and they feared the new direction might scare away some folks.

Goose, I think this is a pretty accurate take. Had they clearly articulated the long-term vision for the program, some donors and fans would've lacked the patience to board the ship.

I will say this...I was at a Senior Day game late in Buzz's tenure, and you could hear it in the kids' speeches that something just wasn't right. I realize that college kids can be a little shy at public speaking, but one could sense that something was a bit off by the tone and cadence of their voices. I turned to the guy next to me, whom I had no idea had any connection to the MU  administration (I still don't know if/what his affiliations were) and I asked him if he thought something was strange. He goes, "There are some clouds around the program...things are gonna come out."  I pressed for details and he got really quiet.

When the shtf and the sexual assault allegations came to light, I didn't want to believe it. I loved the "junkyard dogs" Buzz was recruiting. To overcome the tough backgrounds they did, and succeed at the highest level of college hoops made me proud of Buzz's influence on these guys, and to some extent, it still does. However, the flipside was fraught with danger. Maybe this was what Buzz meant when he opined, "When you love them, they don't know how to act." I'm not gonna judge any of Buzz's guys, or compare their worth as human beings to Wojo's guys.

I don't think it's debatable that Buzz sought out the spotlight for both him and his guys and their rough and tumble backgrounds.You better be ready for the blowback. Wojo, by contrast, does seek the spotlight for his guys, but only for the good that they are doing in the community. While this may be part of a clear strategy, it certainly appears to be a sincere, genuine effort to be accountable to Marquette's mission. I get when some call this out as sanctimonious b.s....but I think all of us know there is something special about that name on the bottom-front of the jerseys. My patience levels with team performance has been tested as much as yours, Goose. We are gonna find out a lot about our team and our coaches in the next few weeks.

[warriorchick]

Goose, I think this is a pretty accurate take. Had they clearly articulated the long-term vision for the program, some donors and fans would've lacked the patience to board the ship.

I will say this...I was at a Senior Day game late in Buzz's tenure, and you could hear it in the kids' speeches that something just wasn't right. I realize that college kids can be a little shy at public speaking, but one could sense that something was a bit off by the tone and cadence of their voices. I turned to the guy next to me, whom I had no idea had any connection to the MU  administration (I still don't know if/what his affiliations were) and I asked him if he thought something was strange. He goes, "There are some clouds around the program...things are gonna come out."  I pressed for details and he got really quiet.

When the shtf and the sexual assault allegations came to light, I didn't want to believe it. I loved the "junkyard dogs" Buzz was recruiting. To overcome the tough backgrounds they did, and succeed at the highest level of college hoops made me proud of Buzz's influence on these guys, and to some extent, it still does. However, the flipside was fraught with danger. Maybe this was what Buzz meant when he opined, "When you love them, they don't know how to act." I'm not gonna judge any of Buzz's guys, or compare their worth as human beings to Wojo's guys.

I don't think it's debatable that Buzz sought out the spotlight for both him and his guys and their rough and tumble backgrounds.You better be ready for the blowback. Wojo, by contrast, does seek the spotlight for his guys, but only for the good that they are doing in the community. While this may be part of a clear strategy, it certainly appears to be a sincere, genuine effort to be accountable to Marquette's mission. I get when some call this out as sanctimonious b.s....but I think all of us know there is something special about that name on the bottom-front of the jerseys. My patience levels with team performance has been tested as much as yours, Goose. We are gonna find out a lot about our team and our coaches in the next few weeks.

Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

[CTWarrior]

You're probably right, but that's brutal. Why would anyone want to go through the almost inevitable regression and rebuild among people transferring and starting over with recruiting if you don't have to? I have such a hard time understanding that mindset.

This is roughly how I think about it.  I am not enamored with Wojo, but the thought of starting all over again with a new guy and another potential rebuild is not appealing at all.  For that reason I am mostly hoping Wojo gets it rolling soon and ends up being the guy.  I always want us to win.

[GGGG]

Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

I could be accused of this, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter.   

To think Buzz did media for a selfish point and Wojo does it only for a noble point is just silly.  One could argue that these stories are coming forward because the results are not there...i.e. this is the selling point of his tenure thus far.  I wouldn't go this far, but to say the other extreme (as above) is not realistic - we see what we want to see.

Also, college basketball is a results driven, money making enterprise - I choose to view it that way.

If kids or coaches commit crimes - address it.  To act like 'rough and tumble' kids are the only ones to commit sexual assault is insulting.  To act like a coach forced the university down a path it didn't want - laughable...they are accountable if crimes were committed. 

So, play within the written rules -- win ball games -- build the national brand of Marquette.  Nothing wrong with that.  If its proven MU doesn't believe this - i will probably be less of a fan - invest less in travel, donations, other things i do associated with the university. 

Some are telling people like me to 'find a new program'....funny reaction really.   

[warriorchick]

Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are. 

[GGGG]

There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are. 

That's exactly my point. 

[goldeneagle91114]

Actually I don't like something Dancer said.  I think it is very dangerous thinking.

When he says "However, the flipside was fraught with danger," he implies that the "junkyard dogs" who come from "tough backgrounds" were the cause of the issues related to sexual assault.  However I will say that the players that most represent the junkyard dog aspect of Buzz's program were not involved at all.  And I have no idea of the backgrounds of those who did.  I don't like the implication that kids from tough backgrounds are more apt to commit assault.

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

I agree with Sultan on this one. There is a very dangerous stereotype being applied the "type" of player buzz recruited.

[NorthernDancerColt]

Very well said, Dancer.

The folks out there who think it doesn't matter what the coach and the players do as long as we win (and I have seen posts that have expressed this explicitly) would be better off supporting another program.

Chick...on the periphery of this win-at-all-costs mentality reside some here who have lamented MU having "AL 2.0" here and our administration dropping the ball and losing him. I resent that comparison.

Let me be clear....I didn't know AL and I don't know any of his family, but by all accounts I know he would not tolerate the culture that was creeping in here. AL got along with most people, and I'd bet he would've got along fine with Buzz. If AL got word of what was going on, however, I would also bet that a breakfast and a stern discussion of what it should mean to coach at Marquette would have been in order.

Coach McGuire knew and lived "tough." Nobody of his day could better relate to kids with rough backgrounds. Sultan and goldeneagle91114, I do understand logic.  It IS dangerous to assume that one's background produces quantifiable negative, predictable behaviors. While AL spoke wistfully of the start of a new year and its attendant "rumors of weed and a girlfriend's pregnancy", AL meant that life happens, and that kids have lives, sometimes messy. He would NOT tolerate rape culture. AL would get all of this through to Coach Williams. And then AL would have handed the breakfast check to Buzz.

[NorthernDancerColt]

That's exactly my point.

No, that wasn't your point. You called me out for somehow being against recruiting kids from rough and tumble backgrounds, when I was simply impugning Buzz's lack of control over the culture that led to the assaults. Thank You, Chick..,for saying it better than I could.

[brewcity77]

That being said, last year's championship game had two of the cleanest programs in college basketball.  Or at least they have that reputation.  Marquette is trying to be like Nova.  Trying to be like Michigan.  There is no reason they can't attain that.  It will be hard to do however.

Agreed with the entire post, but I think this underscores why fans (like myself) are becoming more critical this season. The fourth and fifth seasons of the tenures of Jay Wright and John Beilein were when those programs started to show their promise. Wright earned a 1-seed and went to the Elite Eight in season 5. Beilein earned a 4-seed.

Once you have your own guys in there that understand your system, that's when fans want to start seeing results. That's why expectations are up, criticisms will be up, and disappointments will be up if the team doesn't deliver on the promise the coaching staff has indicated is there.

Trying to be like those programs requires not just off-court behavior but also on-court production, and this season is the one when people will be expecting it.

[NorthernDancerColt]

There is a difference between recruiting kids from "tough backgrounds" and excusing unacceptable (and perhaps even criminal) behavior from your athletes, no matter what their backgrounds are.

This.

[warriorchick]

I would encourage everyone who hasn't read the article on Markus to do so.

https://www.athletesforgod.com/markus-howard/page-1?fbclid=IwAR2VZ_sYSwx8MCZu0SD5nhnkiCsLG1JDHmoH9Kjh-kuYLyba43T1UVzrAn8

Frankly, I am surprised that no one has accused him of being too soft when he says that he is "at peace with whatever happens this season".

He is proof that you can have both talent and character on the same team.

[GGGG]

No, that wasn't your point. You called me out for somehow being against recruiting kids from rough and tumble backgrounds, when I was simply impugning Buzz's lack of control over the culture that led to the assaults. Thank You, Chick..,for saying it better than I could.

No. 

Your implication was that recruiting kids from tough backgrounds leads to more sexual assault issues.  It isn't the "type" of player that Buzz recruited.  It had nothing to do with their background or their junkyard dog mentality.  It had to do with the expectations laid out by the coach for his players and how the coach operates within the regulations of the University. 

In other words, I have absolutely NO problem with recruiting players from rough and tumble backgrounds.  I have a problem with basketball players assaulting other students.   Those aren't mutually exclusive.  You can have both.