Long-time reader, first time poster. I hate to say it but Ners is completely right on DW. It's 4 on 5 with him in the game. Not only do defenders play 5 feet off him when he has the ball anywhere outside of 15, but when he's off the ball they abandon him completely. The fact that one out of 4 of his bull-rushes into the lane drops does not compensate for this. A few times in the second half he was in the corner w/o the ball and his man was 20 ft away, double-teaming Luke. He doesn't even initiate the offense well - just keeps a dribble 25 ft away Re-watch the tape and just look at how much better the spacing, flow and ball-movement was when he was spelled in the 2nd half. Night and day.
His defense is fine, but by no means "elite" - and if the rest of the guys can't shut down a team like Creighton then D doesn't matter that much anyway - our only hope is to trade bucket for bucket but that's hard to do 4 on 5.
With only 7 he of course has to play (although you really have to wonder how much worse a walk-on could be - at least they'd have the advantage of being an unknown). When Carlino is back though why not go Carlino, Du. Wil, Anderson, STJ and Fisher (the last two who become more than the sum of their parts when both on the floor). Those 5 should get 30, Cohen, JjJ and Derrick spelling, in that order.
Plus his FTs! 42%?! Are you kidding me? I can't think of a single JV, let alone varsity, let alone DIII/DII, let alone mid-major, let alone "high" major PG who is that abysmal from the stripe. I know there are some statheads on this board - that has to be close to an all-time low for a starting DI PG right?
Looks like he's 44th worst FT shooter of ALL DI players in the country, 13th worst of those that have attempted at least 2 FTA per game, and 2nd worst guard of that group.
http://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/stats/2015/Averages/Qualified/All/Season/All/ft_pct/asc/1/
So thank you Kerry Weldon of UMASS-Lowell...
http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Kerry-Weldon/Summary/57834
Kerry Weldon is 6-5
Ners, did you start a new account for this thread ... Because the 7000 threads before this was not enough?
For God sake give it a rest ... Our season is over in three weeks and MU career is over.
Hashed over in 10k posts already. Plus, with Carlino out, down to 7 players, the next option is walk ons. Let it go. Season is over in a couple of weeks.
Really. Enough is enough.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 04:15:12 AM
Long-time reader, first time poster. I hate to say it but Ners is completely right on DW. It's 4 on 5 with him in the game. Not only do defenders play 5 feet off him when he has the ball anywhere outside of 15, but when he's off the ball they abandon him completely. The fact that one out of 4 of his bull-rushes into the lane drops does not compensate for this. A few times in the second half he was in the corner w/o the ball and his man was 20 ft away, double-teaming Luke. He doesn't even initiate the offense well - just keeps a dribble 25 ft away Re-watch the tape and just look at how much better the spacing, flow and ball-movement was when he was spelled in the 2nd half. Night and day.
His defense is fine, but by no means "elite" - and if the rest of the guys can't shut down a team like Creighton then D doesn't matter that much anyway - our only hope is to trade bucket for bucket but that's hard to do 4 on 5.
With only 7 he of course has to play (although you really have to wonder how much worse a walk-on could be - at least they'd have the advantage of being an unknown). When Carlino is back though why not go Carlino, Du. Wil, Anderson, STJ and Fisher (the last two who become more than the sum of their parts when both on the floor). Those 5 should get 30, Cohen, JjJ and Derrick spelling, in that order.
Plus his FTs! 42%?! Are you kidding me? I can't think of a single JV, let alone varsity, let alone DIII/DII, let alone mid-major, let alone "high" major PG who is that abysmal from the stripe. I know there are some statheads on this board - that has to be close to an all-time low for a starting DI PG right?
An accurate analysis of the situation. Thanks for the post.
Seriously, wtf cares? This season is the train wreck it was destined to be from the beginning. This entire ongoing conversation could not possibly be more pointless.
Quote from: Texas Western on February 15, 2015, 08:04:30 AM
An accurate analysis of the situation. Thanks for the post.
How can you possibly think this is 'an accurate analysis' when he doesn't take a shot at Wojo's ability or bring up players that are no longer on the team?
Bad seasons bring out more and more posters who don't have a clue....
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 04:15:12 AM
His defense is fine, but by no means "elite" - and if the rest of the guys can't shut down a team like Creighton then D doesn't matter that much anyway - our only hope is to trade bucket for bucket
Plus his FTs! 42%?! Are you kidding me? I can't think of a single JV, let alone varsity, let alone DIII/DII, let alone mid-major, let alone "high" major PG who is that abysmal from the stripe. I know there are some statheads on this board - that has to be close to an all-time low for a starting DI PG right?
Regarding defense, our beat writer pointed out that yesterday MU played three possessions with both Derrick and Juan on the bench. The result was Creighton lay up, Creighton lay up, Creighton lay up.
Derrick is a horrible free throw shooter - 21-50, 42%, but Dominique James was almost as bad and took more of them - 46.1%, 41-89 as a senior.
Derrick is a decidedly subpar D1 point guard. Our alternative last year was a freshman 2 guard who will be taking his talents to mighty Liberty College next year. This year he's also our only true point - Carlino and Duane are 2s and JJJ and Sandy are 3s. Plus we've played all season with 7 or 8 players.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2015, 09:06:30 AM
Regarding defense, our beat writer pointed out that yesterday MU played three possessions with both Derrick and Juan on the bench. The result was Creighton lay up, Creighton lay up, Creighton lay up.
Derrick is a horrible free throw shooter - 21-50, 42%, but Dominique James was almost as bad and took more of them - 46.1%, 41-89 as a senior.
Derrick is a decidedly subpar D1 point guard. Our alternative last year was a freshman 2 guard who will be taking his talents to mighty Liberty College next year. This year he's also our only true point - Carlino and Duane are 2s and JJJ and Sandy are 3s. Plus we've played all season with 7 or 8 players.
LMAO. Comparing Derrick to James!!! And Derrick would have stopped all 3 layups--if that even happened.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 04:15:12 AM
Long-time reader, first time poster. I hate to say it but Ners is completely right on DW. It's 4 on 5 with him in the game. Not only do defenders play 5 feet off him when he has the ball anywhere outside of 15, but when he's off the ball they abandon him completely. The fact that one out of 4 of his bull-rushes into the lane drops does not compensate for this. A few times in the second half he was in the corner w/o the ball and his man was 20 ft away, double-teaming Luke. He doesn't even initiate the offense well - just keeps a dribble 25 ft away Re-watch the tape and just look at how much better the spacing, flow and ball-movement was when he was spelled in the 2nd half. Night and day.
His defense is fine, but by no means "elite" - and if the rest of the guys can't shut down a team like Creighton then D doesn't matter that much anyway - our only hope is to trade bucket for bucket but that's hard to do 4 on 5.
With only 7 he of course has to play (although you really have to wonder how much worse a walk-on could be - at least they'd have the advantage of being an unknown). When Carlino is back though why not go Carlino, Du. Wil, Anderson, STJ and Fisher (the last two who become more than the sum of their parts when both on the floor). Those 5 should get 30, Cohen, JjJ and Derrick spelling, in that order.
Plus his FTs! 42%?! Are you kidding me? I can't think of a single JV, let alone varsity, let alone DIII/DII, let alone mid-major, let alone "high" major PG who is that abysmal from the stripe. I know there are some statheads on this board - that has to be close to an all-time low for a starting DI PG right?
You Sir, should be ashamed of yourself, posting this. This is not the type of stuff that about 10-12 posters here want to hear. And you will be hearing about it from those people.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 09:16:14 AM
LMAO. Comparing Derrick to James!!! And Derrick would have stopped all 3 layups--if that even happened.
The only thing he compared Derrick to Dominic on was FT%...or did you miss that?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 09:16:14 AM
--if that even happened.
Yes, even the beat writer is making stuff up. But if you had actually watched the game, you would have seen it.
I am so sick of the derrick bashing. Derrick is a below average point guard but that blame needs to fall on Buzz and now Wojo. Buzz for not getting a legit point guard the last 2 years at the helm and Wojo for not getting one yet. A high quality point guard can fix a lot of issues for this team. Duane at the point next year is not the answer.
Kris Dunn, Monte Morris, Tyler Ulis, all guys Buzz likely could have had if he'd pursued them. We are the product of a coach that preferred ranked switchables and project players at the point and center positions. My guess is our new coach will have different priorities.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 15, 2015, 09:30:49 AM
Kris Dunn, Monte Morris, Tyler Ulis, all guys Buzz likely could have had if he'd pursued them. We are the product of a coach that preferred ranked switchables and project players at the point and center positions. My guess is our new coach will have different priorities.
Thanks to the phony cowboy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 15, 2015, 09:30:49 AM
Kris Dunn, Monte Morris, Tyler Ulis, all guys Buzz likely could have had if he'd pursued them. We are the product of a coach that preferred ranked switchables and project players at the point and center positions. My guess is our new coach will have different priorities.
Have you been drinking this morning? We could have maybe gotten Morris, but no chance on the other two.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 09:37:08 AM
Have you been drinking this morning? We could have maybe gotten Morris, but no chance on the other two.
Ulis and Dunn were both interested in Marquette but Buzz never offered.
Thanks to Buzz for the S-16, S-16, E-8, Big East Regular season Championship. The fallout this season is closer to normal for coaching changes. So, thanks to Buzz for being a good enough coach to have the team be successful when he took over. He had good players and was able to keep most of them and get them to buy in. Wojo didn't have as many good players, and lost more of them than Buzz did. So, slurp slurp slurp, Buzz won at MU for 5 of his 6 years. Thanks, Buzz.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 09:16:14 AM
LMAO. Comparing Derrick to James!!! And Derrick would have stopped all 3 layups--if that even happened.
1SE wrote: "his FTs! 42%?! Are you kidding me? I can't think of a SINGLE JV, let alone Varsity, let alone DIII/DII, let alone "high" major PG who is that abysmal from the stripe."
I didn't compare Derrick to Dom as a PLAYER (reading is fundamental, Willie). I compared them as seniors shooting FTs. Accurately. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 09:38:00 AM
Ulis and Dunn were both interested in Marquette but Buzz never offered.
Yeah, I'm sure Ulis would have picked us over Kentucky.
Quote from: Heisenberg on February 15, 2015, 07:10:11 AM
Ners, did you start a new account for this thread ... Because the 7000 threads before this was not enough?
For God sake give it a rest ... Our season is over in three weeks and MU career is over.
Yeah but, the only question remainin' is if he can go on and play for pay in Somalia, hey?
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 09:41:25 AM
Yeah, I'm sure Ulis would have picked us over Kentucky.
Maybe. Maybe an early commit would have made the difference. The point is saying "no chance" was an inaccurate statement.
I don't get it. Almost everyone on the planet has known we have a PG deficiency....what's new there? The kid plays hard, would be a solid backup, but not a starter at this level. Nothing new.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 09:41:25 AM
Yeah, I'm sure Ulis would have picked us over Kentucky.
Agreed. No way a kid like Ulis or Henry Ellenson would pick MU if they had a UK offer.
Oh, wait....
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 09:48:37 AM
I don't get it. Almost everyone on the planet has known we have a PG deficiency....what's new there? The kid plays hard, would be a solid backup, but not a starter at D-2 level. Nothing new.
FIFY
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 15, 2015, 09:50:34 AM
FIFY
Does this mean you are on board with it being a guards game? :)
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 09:37:08 AM
Have you been drinking this morning? We could have maybe gotten Morris, but no chance on the other two.
It's okay if you don't follow recruiting, but don't pretend you do if you don't. Dunn said he wanted to go to Marquette. We showed minimal interest, instead pursuing Gabe York. While Buzz went after York, Cooley made Dunn a priority. It was too late once York went of the board to Arizona. Buzz could have kicked him up months earlier had he made Dunn a priority.
With Ulis, Kentucky wasn't even interested. Buzz could have had him early but (as we saw with Acker and Cooby) Buzz didn't like small point guards. Ulis' recruitment stretched out a long time. He blew up and forced himself on Kentucky, who also wasn't interested early on. Ulis took his own visits there and just hoped for an offer since none of the other schools he wanted (including Marquette) had made him a priority. Buzz could have had him in the early period, instead he played his way into the Kentucky offer and signed late.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 09:48:37 AM
I don't get it. Almost everyone on the planet has known we have a PG deficiency....what's new there? The kid plays hard, would be a solid backup, but not a starter at this level. Nothing new.
Exactly.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
I know I won't be looking at this post again, but it's a free country for sadists and masochists.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 09:55:42 AM
Does this mean you are on board with it being a guards game? :)
Comin' 'round a bit on that. The answer is probably you need 5 quality playas at all 5 positions. Don't think the switchable route is the answer. Give me a stud at 1,2,3,4, and 5, aina?
The biggest problem may have simply been Buzz's staff wasn't very good at developing guards. How many guards appreciably improved while here? DJO was pretty good from the start. Junior and Derrick didn't get much better under Buzz. He seemed content to plan to have natural SGs like Dwight, Vander, and Mayo in line for lead guard spots but it didn't work.
Vander was probably the most successful guard developed, but he (like Dwight) didn't really develop point guard skills until after they left Marquette.
Derrick has improved more in one year under the new staff than he did in three years with Buzz. Duane looks like another SG type that Buzz probably hoped would develop into a point. I have a lot more confidence that Wojo will get that development out of him than Buzz would have. I wonder what Derrick might be with four years in this system. Probably never a stud, but his development was certainly stunted here.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 15, 2015, 10:32:26 AM
The biggest problem may have simply been Buzz's staff wasn't very good at developing guards. How many guards appreciably improved while here? DJO was pretty good from the start. Junior and Derrick didn't get much better under Buzz. He seemed content to plan to have natural SGs like Dwight, Vander, and Mayo in line for lead guard spots but it didn't work.
Vander was probably the most successful guard developed, but he (like Dwight) didn't really develop point guard skills until after they left Marquette.
Derrick has improved more in one year under the new staff than he did in three years with Buzz. Duane looks like another SG type that Buzz probably hoped would develop into a point. I have a lot more confidence that Wojo will get that development out of him than Buzz would have. I wonder what Derrick might be with four years in this system. Probably never a stud, but his development was certainly stunted here.
Hmmm..another nail in the coffin that the phony cowboy is the one to thank for this year's issues?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
Hmmm..another nail in the coffin that the phony cowboy is the one to thank for this year's issues?
Really I think the best (or worst) grade anyone can give Wojo to this point is "incomplete."
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 10:43:26 AM
Really I think the best (or worst) grade anyone can give Wojo to this point is "incomplete."
I agree at this point in time. He inherited a mess from El Buzzo. Unfortunately, he has not yet improved upon it.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 11:08:46 AM
I agree at this point in time. He inherited a mess from El Buzzo. Unfortunately, he has not yet improved upon it.
You can't polish a turd
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 04:15:12 AM
I don't understand your post. No one has denied anything you've stated here. Nothing you've written is untrue, and we all know it, including Ners - and he knows the rest of us know it. You're just restating everything that's already been talked about, and acknowledged by everyone, dozens of times on this board. Lots of blame to go around in our current situation. Just take a breath and look forward to the next few seasons.
Time to move on boys and girls. Watch or not is your choice but please stop the whining.
No Ners was not right, because in spite of Derrick's short comings there is no better point guard on MU roster this year or last year. That is not Derrick's fualt, it is the fault of poor recruiting. Buzz said he wanted to recruit a point guard every year. In five years he brought in two point guards. Cadougan and Smith and Smith left halfway through his first year. Wojo so far is worse. He recruited Nick, who will not even show up next year. Besides that many posters here said he was really a two. You cannot be a top 25 team without a true point guard. Quit ragging on Derrick and start ragging on Wojo, because next year's team has no true point guard.
Quote from: bilsu on February 15, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
No Ners was not right, because in spite of Derrick's short comings there is no better point guard on MU roster this year or last year. That is not Derrick's fualt, it is the fault of poor recruiting. Buzz said he wanted to recruit a point guard every year. In five years he brought in two point guards. Cadougan and Smith and Smith left halfway through his first year. Wojo so far is worse. He recruited Nick, who will not even show up next year. Besides that many posters here said he was really a two. You cannot be a top 25 team without a true point guard. Quit ragging on Derrick and start ragging on Wojo, because next year's team has no true point guard.
I agree that the whining does no good, because the circumstances aren't ideal.
However, I don't know how you or anyone else doesn't see that Duane Wilson is a better PG than Derrick. He creates better, shoots better and passes better than Derrick. It's not even even a comparison. The only reason derrick plays is because JJJ is still figuring it out, or maybe just doesn't have it. So if you can't start JJJ then what? Have to play Derrick, and he can only "play" one position. The assist to turnover stat everyone relies on is garbage. How would Derrick ever turn it over? He never forces action!
Quote from: bilsu on February 15, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
No Ners was not right, because in spite of Derrick's short comings there is no better point guard on MU roster this year or last year. That is not Derrick's fualt, it is the fault of poor recruiting. Buzz said he wanted to recruit a point guard every year. In five years he brought in two point guards. Cadougan and Smith and Smith left halfway through his first year. Wojo so far is worse. He recruited Nick, who will not even show up next year. Besides that many posters here said he was really a two. You cannot be a top 25 team without a true point guard. Quit ragging on Derrick and start ragging on Wojo, because next year's team has no true point guard.
How can you blame Wojo for Nicks "situation". I am sure he will find a true point guard. Let's see what he's does with the next two recruiting classes before making judgements. He is just starting and he has a bare cupboard.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 15, 2015, 12:20:39 PM
I don't know how you or anyone else doesn't see that Duane Wilson is a better PG than Derrick.
Wow. I think you might be the only one that "sees" that. Wojo doesn't either....right now at least.
I like Duane, and think he'l be a great player for the next 3 years. He *might* even become a good PG, but he's not right now. He's a better shooting guard, that is very mediocre as distributing the ball, and very sloppy at protecting the ball.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 09:41:25 AM
Yeah, I'm sure Ulis would have picked us over Kentucky.
As Sultan said, Ulis wanted to come here before the Kentucky offer. We offer his junior year, we have a good shot at him.
Dunn would have been here if Buzz wanted him.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 15, 2015, 10:32:26 AM
Derrick has improved more in one year under the new staff than he did in three years with Buzz. I wonder what Derrick might be with four years in this system. Probably never a stud, but his development was certainly stunted here.
Really? Just as last season, Derrick had some nice moments in non-conference play. Yet, now that we are in Big East play, once again, like last year, Derrick has had tons of struggles. While Derrick has improved on his 7% 3 point shooting percentage, he's virtually the same player he was last year.
No amount of time under Wojo would have made Derrick any better. He is what he is. A physical, defensive guard, with ZERO offensive ability.
Buzz and Wojo hitched their horse to the notion that his ball security and elite defensive skills would compensate for the deficit he creates on the offensive end of the floor. The quality of that decision is beared out in the team's record last year and this year. Period.
Wojo has essentially been starting 3 PG types all season long. It's ludicrous. Ultimately nothing is really Derrick's fault - he gives everything he has. The fault lies with both Buzz and Wojo thinking that the best coaching decision was to play him 35+ minutes per game.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 15, 2015, 11:14:15 AM
You can't polish a turd
You, sir, have never spent time in DC
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 15, 2015, 12:20:39 PM
I agree that the whining does no good, because the circumstances aren't ideal.
However, I don't know how you or anyone else doesn't see that Duane Wilson is a better PG than Derrick. He creates better, shoots better and passes better than Derrick. It's not even even a comparison. The only reason derrick plays is because JJJ is still figuring it out, or maybe just doesn't have it. So if you can't start JJJ then what? Have to play Derrick, and he can only "play" one position. The assist to turnover stat everyone relies on is garbage. How would Derrick ever turn it over? He never forces action!
In conference play on offense, MU is dead last in OE, turnover rate, FTR, and FT%. MU is is near the bottom in others. Derrick for the season has a TO % of 19.8 but at 25.2% in conference, Duane is at 15.9 and 16.7 in conference, and Matt is at 18.4 and 19.3. Matt (23.8%) and Derrick (24.9) have similar assist %.
There are other choices at PG, and Wojo went to one scenario yesterday for a few minutes. Remember, Wojo likes a high tempo offense which he has been hamstrung on to implement this year. Nothing to lose by playing and evaluating the future. Yesterday was MU's third best BE OE game of the season as Duane took more of a controller role in the 2nd half.
Quote from: keefe on February 15, 2015, 01:02:23 PM
Or have the Team Manager do so...
Or put it in a towell
First senior day ever where I won't be sad to see any of them go. In fact, I can't wait. Very sad.....
Quote from: eg021 on February 15, 2015, 01:17:30 PM
First senior day ever where I won't be sad to see any of them go. In fact, I can't wait. Very sad.....
You've been on this site for 2 weeks.....I'm sorry your entitlement to great hoops has brought you down.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 04:15:12 AM
Long-time reader, first time poster.
Had to ignore those ads and banners begging you to register for a long time, aina?
Yes, I know he is what he is, this season is a bust, wait for next year, etc. etc. but that's exactly the point - why does DW play 30 minutes a game (even when we're at 8 strong). We're playing for next year. Why waste minutes on a lost cause. Get Sandy some serious run - give JjJ some consecutive deep PT to see if he can ever be anything more than a 4th option off the bench. Hell, let the walk ons play - I'm sure they "try" just as hard as Derrick in practice (since "he tries hard" seems to be everyone's main justification for letting him play). Seriously - re-watch the 2nd half from yesterday - Derrick was wide open on the baseline on multiple possessions - his man in the paint doubling Luke. I bet one of those walk ons could hit a trey with that much daylight.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
Yes, I know he is what he is, this season is a bust, wait for next year, etc. etc. but that's exactly the point - why does DW play 30 minutes a game (even when we're at 8 strong). We're playing for next year. Why waste minutes on a lost cause. Get Sandy some serious run - give JjJ some consecutive deep PT to see if he can ever be anything more than a 4th option off the bench. Hell, let the walk ons play - I'm sure they "try" just as hard as Derrick in practice (since "he tries hard" seems to be everyone's main justification for letting him play). Seriously - re-watch the 2nd half from yesterday - Derrick was wide open on the baseline on multiple possessions - his man in the paint doubling Luke. I bet one of those walk ons could hit a trey with that much daylight.
Well, it appears that you and our head coach have different philosophies. Please email him or the AD or anyone in administration or the board to address your complaints. The same crap keeps coming up and you have to realize at some point that things on the court aren't going to change. Accept it and move on.
Agreed, the twins have earned some playing time with how aggressively they clap on the bench.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 15, 2015, 01:56:01 PM
Had to ignore those ads and banners begging you to register for a long time, right?
So you're the authority on when someone should register? Maybe he didn't feel like registering and just liked reading people's posts. I read Packer message boards all the time, haven't registered and don't plan on it. Still fun to read what people have to say.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
Yes, I know he is what he is, this season is a bust, wait for next year, etc. etc. but that's exactly the point - why does DW play 30 minutes a game (even when we're at 8 strong). We're playing for next year. Why waste minutes on a lost cause. Get Sandy some serious run - give JjJ some consecutive deep PT to see if he can ever be anything more than a 4th option off the bench. Hell, let the walk ons play - I'm sure they "try" just as hard as Derrick in practice (since "he tries hard" seems to be everyone's main justification for letting him play). Seriously - re-watch the 2nd half from yesterday - Derrick was wide open on the baseline on multiple possessions - his man in the paint doubling Luke. I bet one of those walk ons could hit a trey with that much daylight.
Creighton is probably a bad example of a game to watch. In the 4 games they've played against Derrick it is almost absurd how much they sag off him. More than any team I've seen. They literally don't guard him and put his man in the paint guarding the bigs and helping with others. I guess it's worked for them for the most part so far. Hope next year that kind of defense won't be able to be used against MU and that opposing teams will need to guard all five players on the floor.
Quote from: MARQ_13 on February 15, 2015, 02:28:51 PM
Creighton is probably a bad example of a game to watch. In the 4 games they've played against Derrick it is almost absurd how much they sag off him. More than any team I've seen. They literally don't guard him and put his man in the paint guarding the bigs and helping with others. I guess it's worked for them for the most part so far. Hope next year that kind of defense won't be able to be used against MU and that opposing teams will need to guard all five players on the floor.
I don think it's absurd how much they sag off him at all. If I was a coach playing against him, I would do it the whole game, probably sag off even more than what they have done. Has worked well for them and Derrick hasn't made them pay for it.
Quote from: MARQ_13 on February 15, 2015, 02:28:51 PM
Creighton is probably a bad example of a game to watch. In the 4 games they've played against Derrick it is almost absurd how much they sag off him. More than any team I've seen. They literally don't guard him and put his man in the paint guarding the bigs and helping with others. I guess it's worked for them for the most part so far. Hope next year that kind of defense won't be able to be used against MU and that opposing teams will need to guard all five players on the floor.
LOL. What lengths people go to make excuses for Derrick. BTW--they have kicked our ass 3 of those 4 games.
Quote from: keefe on February 15, 2015, 12:53:16 PM
You, sir, have never spent time in DC
Now that is funny--and also true. About 90% of what goes on in DC is polishing turds.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 15, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Wow. I think you might be the only one that "sees" that. Wojo doesn't either....right now at least.
I like Duane, and think he'l be a great player for the next 3 years. He *might* even become a good PG, but he's not right now. He's a better shooting guard, that is very mediocre as distributing the ball, and very sloppy at protecting the ball.
Strange how people "see" things differently.
Quote from: 1SE on February 15, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
Yes, I know he is what he is, this season is a bust, wait for next year, etc. etc. but that's exactly the point - why does DW play 30 minutes a game (even when we're at 8 strong). We're playing for next year. Why waste minutes on a lost cause. Get Sandy some serious run - give JjJ some consecutive deep PT to see if he can ever be anything more than a 4th option off the bench. Hell, let the walk ons play - I'm sure they "try" just as hard as Derrick in practice (since "he tries hard" seems to be everyone's main justification for letting him play). Seriously - re-watch the 2nd half from yesterday - Derrick was wide open on the baseline on multiple possessions - his man in the paint doubling Luke. I bet one of those walk ons could hit a trey with that much daylight.
Everyone is playing Ners.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 09:48:37 AM
I don't get it. Almost everyone on the planet has known we have a PG deficiency....what's new there? The kid plays hard, would be a solid backup, but not a starter at this level. Nothing new.
Seriously...people act like they've had some epiphany or original thought about DW and/or our lack of PG. If it's honestly just occurring to you now, that we lack a good PG or that DW has major limitations, you should really pull your head out of your ass. And if you feel the need to continuously talk about these two issues, you should probably shove your head back in.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on February 15, 2015, 02:26:50 PM
So you're the authority on when someone should register? Maybe he didn't feel like registering and just liked reading people's posts. I read Packer message boards all the time, haven't registered and don't plan on it. Still fun to read what people have to say.
All I know is having to scroll past those ads and the request to register after every refresh/button click on the site gets old fast.
http://iowa.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/iowa-states-deonte-burton-throws-down-a-windmill-dunk-while-wearing-timberlands
Didn't think I saw this elsewhere on here
I love how we're crediting ners with the discovery that Derrick isn't good. Anyways this stop needs to stop, I'm no Derrick fan but he's Wat we go got. This is getting disgracefull how many times we covered this. I respectfully request to have this monstrosity of a thread taken down.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 15, 2015, 12:20:39 PM
I agree that the whining does no good, because the circumstances aren't ideal.
However, I don't know how you or anyone else doesn't see that Duane Wilson is a better PG than Derrick. He creates better, shoots better and passes better than Derrick. It's not even even a comparison. The only reason derrick plays is because JJJ is still figuring it out, or maybe just doesn't have it. So if you can't start JJJ then what? Have to play Derrick, and he can only "play" one position. The assist to turnover stat everyone relies on is garbage. How would Derrick ever turn it over? He never forces action!
Lot more knowledgeable folks than you think he is a 2. He is a slasher and a shooter. Could he be a point guard? Maybe. Wojo is trying to find a more traditional point. I like DuWil as a 2. He is a freshman and looks the part.
I think 1SE might be Ners's version of Hoopaloop.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 15, 2015, 09:26:34 AM
I am so sick of the derrick bashing. Derrick is a below average point guard but that blame needs to fall on Buzz and now Wojo. Buzz for not getting a legit point guard the last 2 years at the helm and Wojo for not getting one yet. A high quality point guard can fix a lot of issues for this team. Duane at the point next year is not the answer.
I agree with the 1st sentence.
But how you blame Wojo for that is beyond me. He didn't recruit Derrick and when he signed on as coach there were no quality PGs available for this year that he could have signed. You need to check your facts a little.
But, I also agree with your last sentence. Duane will be OK running point for a bit here and there, but I agree he isn't the answer for the position right now. That could change, however, as he gets to his junior year and learns to
play under control a little more. He could become a Kemba, Shabazz type PG.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 15, 2015, 12:23:41 PM
Wow. I think you might be the only one that "sees" that. Wojo doesn't either....right now at least.
I like Duane, and think he'l be a great player for the next 3 years. He *might* even become a good PG, but he's not right now. He's a better shooting guard, that is very mediocre as distributing the ball, and very sloppy at protecting the ball.
He's sloppy with that ball? I don't see that. You want him to dribble up the ball, pass it the wing and stand outside the arc like a statue he can do that. You want him to hold the ball for 5 seconds, dribble in place for 5 seconds or run the weave he can do that. But he's asked to do more, and he responds.
I don't think Wojo has a choice, there is no one else to play and Duane can play both roles. Have to maximize minutes. Even Buzz played Junior Codougan over Derrick, and he was average at best.
Quote from: brandx on February 15, 2015, 05:49:48 PM
I agree with the 1st sentence.
But how you blame Wojo for that is beyond me. He didn't recruit Derrick and when he signed on as coach there were no quality PGs available for this year that he could have signed. You need to check your facts a little.
But, I also agree with your last sentence. Duane will be OK running point for a bit here and there, but I agree he isn't the answer for the position right now. That could change, however, as he gets to his junior year and learns to play under control a little more. He could become a Kemba, Shabazz type PG.
Wojo is completely to blame for this season. He allocates playing time. Wojo had both Carlino and Duane available to him to play at PG. Buzz didn't have that option last season. Wojo should have clearly been able to see from reviewing our games of last season all of the challenges playing Derrick 30+ at PG create for a team. Inexplicably, Wojo doubled down and chose to play Derrick more minutes than any other player on the team, and meanwhile the team falls to 11-14 and last place in the Big East.
And as for "playing under control," Kemba Walker and Shabazz Napier had plenty of moments of playing completely out of control. In many ways, the willingness to play out of control, and ball out is what it takes to be a great PG.
Think some MU fans out of a sincere desire to not be critical of a maligned player, have lost sight of what actually makes most PG's great - a motor that doesn't stop, a player that forces the action, presses the defense at all times, and as a result creates good looks for himself and his teammates - and along the way has some turnovers.
Quote from: Lazars Headband on February 15, 2015, 05:49:10 PM
I think 1SE might be Ners's version of Hoopaloop.
LOL - Nope. 1SE is not me. Just another MU fan that apparently reached wits end and has had enough. But again, the blame ultimately should not fall at the feet of Derrick. He gives everything he has out there and plays to the best of his ability. The blame squarely rests with Buzz and now Wojo.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 01:48:39 PM
You've been on this site for 2 weeks.....I'm sorry your entitlement to great hoops has brought you down.
I'm a marquette graduate and a season ticket holder. Yes I am new to the scoop, but a longtime follower of the program.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 06:02:38 PM
Wojo is completely to blame for this season. He allocates playing time. Wojo had both Carlino and Duane available to him to play at PG. Buzz didn't have that option last season. Wojo should have clearly been able to see from reviewing our games of last season all of the challenges playing Derrick 30+ at PG create for a team. Inexplicably, Wojo doubled down and chose to play Derrick more minutes than any other player on the team, and meanwhile the team falls to 11-14 and last place in the Big East.
And as for "playing under control," Kemba Walker and Shabazz Napier had plenty of moments of playing completely out of control. In many ways, the willingness to play out of control, and ball out is what it takes to be a great PG.
Think some MU fans out of a sincere desire to not be critical of a maligned player, have lost sight of what actually makes most PG's great - a motor that doesn't stop, a player that forces the action, presses the defense at all times, and as a result creates good looks for himself and his teammates - and along the way has some turnovers.
LOL - Nope. 1SE is not me. Just another MU fan that apparently reached wits end and has had enough. But again, the blame ultimately should not fall at the feet of Derrick. He gives everything he has out there and plays to the best of his ability. The blame squarely rests with Buzz and now Wojo.
You are sounding worse than some IU fans....and they are beyond unhinged. What did you expect the first year with this team AND then the changes that occurred. Burton's mom dies, Carlino is hurt, we do not have a quality PG (which you remind us often), Mayo (don't even get me started), etc.
Honestly, what did you expect?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 06:19:13 PM
You are sounding worse than some IU fans....and they are beyond unhinged. What did you expect the first year with this team AND then the changes that occurred. Burton's mom dies, Carlino is hurt, we do not have a quality PG (which you remind us often), Mayo (don't even get me started), etc.
Honestly, what did you expect?
Here is what a good college basketball coach does in Ners' World
1. Fires up the laptop.
2. See who Scout ranks in the top 100.
3. Recruits as many of those players as possible.
4. Develops a complex matrix whereby those who are ranked the highest get the most minutes.
5. Rolls out the basketball.
He has said it often. He think Wojo was left with a lot of talent and screwed it up. Despite pretty much everyone predicting that this season wouldn't be pleasant.
Quote from: eg021 on February 15, 2015, 06:05:29 PM
I'm a marquette graduate and a season ticket holder. Yes I am new to the scoop, but a longtime follower of the program.
That's fine....I found your statement about being happy about Senior Day to be odd. Some fans seem to be entitled that we should finish at a certain level each year.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
Here is what a good college basketball coach does in Ners' World
1. Fires up the laptop.
2. See who Scout ranks in the top 100.
3. Recruits as many of those players as possible.
4. Develops a complex matrix whereby those who are ranked the highest get the most minutes.
5. Rolls out the basketball.
He has said it often. He think Wojo was left with a lot of talent and screwed it up. Despite pretty much everyone predicting that this season wouldn't be pleasant.
If someone told me prior to the season starting that even though Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino are on this year's team, that Derrick Wilson would play 35+ minutes per game in conference play - I would have predicted this season to again be brutal and a last place finish.
Most preseason prognosticators got it wrong the year before, and predicted MU to win the conference - yet we so underperformed expectations last season we not only didn't win Big East or make the NCAA - we didn't even make the NIT. How did last season go SO incredibly awry?
So of course we lost 70% of our scoring going into this season, yet considering Carlino and Duane were coming on board, and it was clear as day to anyone with a pulse what ailed last year's team - to think that we would be relieved of that burden was by itself enough to project better things than the doom and gloom some forecast. Then of course Wojo doesn't play Burton much, Dawson at all, and they transfer. We get down to #8strong. Then he nails Cohen to the bench for a game against DePaul. Then JJJ against Xavier. Only constant? Once again Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes per game.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 07:40:46 PM
Only constant? Once again Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes per game.
Which tells me clearly there are no other viable options anyone is comfortable with....two different staffs have made the same decision.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 09:01:42 PM
Which tells me clearly there are no other viable options anyone is comfortable with....two different staffs have made the same decision.
And how has that decision worked out for both staffs? Yet, Buzz didn't have the option to play Duane or Carlino at PG last year - so in reality, it isn't as though two different staffs made the SAME decision.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 09:40:32 PM
And how has that decision worked out for both staffs? Yet, Buzz didn't have the option to play Duane or Carlino at PG last year - so in reality, it isn't as though two different staffs made the SAME decision.
Buzz and Wojo is have one thing in common. Neither is interested in winning, obviously.
I'm curious Ners. You seem to give JjJ a pass for his poor play this season because he is "only a sophomore." When it comes to Derrick Wilson you constantly talk about how awful he was his junior year (even conceding in recent posts at he's played better this year than last). If JjJ does show marked improvement next season what will you say? Will it be Wojo's fault?
Typo. Meant to say "doesn't show marked improvement"
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 09:40:32 PM
And how has that decision worked out for both staffs? Yet, Buzz didn't have the option to play Duane or Carlino at PG last year - so in reality, it isn't as though two different staffs made the SAME decision.
You are again pretending to think Carlino or Duane are better than Derek. Just as you thought Dawson was. A bunch of coaches (assistant and head coaches) have said that isn't the case.
Believe me, I've always been of the feeling that a point guard is the most important position in college hoops and generally if you have good guards, you have a chance all the time. That's why I was such a fan of Diener, the three amigos, Yogi \ Blackmon, etc. I get it. DW isn't the guy to do it, but as much as I feel Buzz is an arse hat scuzzy coach, he's still a smart coach...he made that decision. Wojo made the same decision. Assuming input from the staffs as well. None of them want to lose, they would put in the best players they thought that could win games.
Buzz didn't use Dawson for that role. Neither did Wojo. Buzz was not thrilled with Duane at all last year prior to the injury, in terms of his ability in that role. Wojo hasn't thrown him into that role this year. There are obvious reasons.
-posted on accident-
Quote from: Jables1604 on February 15, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
I'm curious Ners. You seem to give JjJ a pass for his poor play this season because he is "only a sophomore." When it comes to Derrick Wilson you constantly talk about how awful he was his junior year (even conceding in recent posts at he's played better this year than last). If JjJ does show marked improvement next season what will you say? Will it be Wojo's fault?
Huh? Derrick is a TICK better than he was last year. He's once again devolving in Big East play just as he did last season. He shoots slightly better from the 3, though is it really hard to improve from 7%? I think those who support Derrick are grasping for any and every straw they can find to try to justify their support/belief.
As for JJJ's "poor play." His poor play, is so much better than Derrick's it isn't even comparable. As I've said, give JJJ 25+ minutes and he'll perform a HELL of a lot better than Derrick. Does it mean JJJ won't have a clunker of a game like he did against Creighton? No. But on the whole, JJJ is FAR more talented than Derrick and will post better numbers.
I expect JJJ will improve next season, as he'll gain strength, and have another offseason of work. He was a Top 30 recruit. He has a foundation of natural ability that points toward the ability to be a good/very good player at this level. I won't "blame" Wojo for that. (Not sure what your point is with that statement anyway?) I blame Wojo for playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game - especially considering Derrick actually isn't much improved over last year, when he was awful.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 11:25:14 AM
Huh? Derrick is a TICK better than he was last year. He's once again devolving in Big East play just as he did last season. He shoots slightly better from the 3, though is it really hard to improve from 7%? I think those who support Derrick are grasping for any and every straw they can find to try to justify their support/belief.
As for JJJ's "poor play." His poor play, is so much better than Derrick's it isn't even comparable. As I've said, give JJJ 25+ minutes and he'll perform a HELL of a lot better than Derrick. Does it mean JJJ won't have a clunker of a game like he did against Creighton? No. But on the whole, JJJ is FAR more talented than Derrick and will post better numbers.
I expect JJJ will improve next season, as he'll gain strength, and have another offseason of work. He was a Top 30 recruit. He has a foundation of natural ability that points toward the ability to be a good/very good player at this level. I won't "blame" Wojo for that. (Not sure what your point is with that statement anyway?) I blame Wojo for playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game - especially considering Derrick actually isn't much improved over last year, when he was awful.
Ners--a word to the wise. You will not change the minds of the Derrick advocates even when facts prove their speculation/opinion wrong. I feel your frustration, but accept that in some people's minds Derrick is a stud and deserves his 35+ minutes a game, even though that dream comes from lala land. Sort of like people believe that their favorite corrupt politician is a stud and deserves to be re-elected, in spite of the evidence that the place may be burning to the ground around him. Such is the "circle of life". As Roseanna Bandanna used to say
"Well, Jane it just goes to show you--it's always something."
Nothing will change with those 10-20 Derrickers.
So you don't understand what I mean by asking if you'll blame JjJ's poor play (should he in fact play poorly next year which is far from what I want) on Wojo? That's what you've done all year. If JjJ has a bad game it's because he's not getting minutes (Wojo's fault), or it's that he doesn't get a long enough leash (Wojo's fault) or because his head is being played with (wojo's fault). On the occasions that he does get your arbitrary 25+ minutes and lays an egg (like he's been doing recently) you justify it by saying "he's only a sophomore."
I'm asking you a simple question.
You have been critical of Derrick Wilson's play for his entire junior and senior year. I get it. He's not good. But if JjJ's play doesn't improve markedly are you going to be just as critical of him or are you going to be (in you're own words) a "slurper" who will look to lay the blame on anything and everything else?
As for Wilie (who is quite obviously a Ners "slurper" or maybe it's vice versa) I will invite you to find one single post where I praised Derrick. Just because someone doesn't post obsessively and ad nauseum about how awful a player is doesn't mean that they are enamored of the guy. But that wouldn't fit into your narrow agenda of calling out everyone who isn't a vocal critic. You and Ners seem to turn every single comment about the team into an indictment of Derrick, regardless of the topic. In politics they call that the "pivot."
Quote from: willie warrior on February 16, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Ners--a word to the wise. You will not change the minds of the Derrick advocates even when facts prove their speculation/opinion wrong. I feel your frustration, but accept that in some people's minds Derrick is a stud and deserves his 35+ minutes a game, even though that dream comes from lala land. Sort of like people believe that their favorite corrupt politician is a stud and deserves to be re-elected, in spite of the evidence that the place may be burning to the ground around him. Such is the "circle of life". As Roseanna Bandanna used to say
"Well, Jane it just goes to show you--it's always something."
Nothing will change with those 10-20 Derrickers.
I don't remember many if any people calling Derrick a stud. We are down to 7 available players. Who is the better alternative to get minutes at the point?
Derrick is not good. About 6 games left--the season is lost. Cut his minutes to say 20, distribute those minutes to Sandy/JJJ at the 2Guard and have Duane and Carlino absorb the reduced minutes at PG. This furthers the development of Sandy and JJJ, and gives everybody a better definition if Duane can handle the Point. Nothing lost by doing this except the egos of those that think Derrick is the only answer, if this proves successful. Absolutely no downside by doing this and furthers the development of three key players for next year.
But hey, that makes too much sense--sort of like having a 1page Income tax form that most people would appreciate, but would really tick off bureaucrats.
What Willie is suggesting brings up a discussion that began last season in regards to when to pull the plug and play for the future. Last year we really weren't out of it until our multi game, multi overtime losses ended our chances.
This season we have no hope of an at large being 3-10 in last place. It may be time to play for the future since this season is over.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 01:38:54 PM
What Willie is suggesting brings up a discussion that began last season in regards to when to pull the plug and play for the future. Last year we really weren't out of it until out multi game, multi overtime losses ended our chances.
This season we have no hope of an at large being 3-10 in last place. It may be time to play for the future since this season is over.
Unfortunately for us that looks a lot like the last 2 games....
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 15, 2015, 05:52:27 PM
He's sloppy with that ball? I don't see that.
He has a 1.1 A/TO ratio, which puts him at 950th in the country, and 37th in the conference.
If you go with conference only games, he's got a 0.9 A/TO ratio which is tied for 44th in the conference.
In conference games Derrick, Matt, JaJuan and Sandy have a better A/T ratio. Outside of conference games, he and JaJuan are tied, with everyone else above them. So yes. He's sloppy with the ball. Especially compared to the rest of our guards.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 16, 2015, 01:31:28 PM
Derrick is not good. About 6 games left--the season is lost. Cut his minutes to say 20, distribute those minutes to Sandy/JJJ at the 2Guard and have Duane and Carlino absorb the reduced minutes at PG. This furthers the development of Sandy and JJJ, and gives everybody a better definition if Duane can handle the Point. Nothing lost by doing this except the egos of those that think Derrick is the only answer, if this proves successful. Absolutely no downside by doing this and furthers the development of three key players for next year.
But hey, that makes too much sense--sort of like having a 1page Income tax form that most people would appreciate, but would really tick off bureaucrats.
Which cannot come fast enough so we can put all this nonsense to rest!
Quote from: willie warrior on February 16, 2015, 01:31:28 PM
Derrick is not good. About 6 games left--the season is lost. Cut his minutes to say 20, distribute those minutes to Sandy/JJJ at the 2Guard and have Duane and Carlino absorb the reduced minutes at PG. This furthers the development of Sandy and JJJ, and gives everybody a better definition if Duane can handle the Point. Nothing lost by doing this except the egos of those that think Derrick is the only answer, if this proves successful. Absolutely no downside by doing this and furthers the development of three key players for next year.
But hey, that makes too much sense--sort of like having a 1page Income tax form that most people would appreciate, but would really tick off bureaucrats.
Any development that comes from these changes over 6 games will be minimal. Let me make this perfectly clear - this is not a defense of Derrick. I don't care if his minutes are cut. However, any material improvement from Duane, JJJ, and Sandy will come over the offseason and not because they get 5-10 more MPG overall or in different positions for these last 6 games.
Furthermore, Duane and Carlino are NOT point guards. At best they are combo guards but each is more of a two. We are so inept offensively that either of them playing PG and looking to distribute may not be the best solution.
Against Creighton, we finally had Duane and JJJ in the backcourt together with no Derrick and no Carlino. Layup, layup, layup for Creighton. Wojo had to bring Derrick back into the game.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2015, 03:26:11 PM
Against Creighton, we finally had Duane and JJJ in the backcourt together with no Derrick and no Carlino. Layup, layup, layup for Creighton. Wojo had to bring Derrick back into the game.
As I recall, off fairly simple pick and rolls too.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2015, 03:26:11 PM
Against Creighton, we finally had Duane and JJJ in the backcourt together with no Derrick and no Carlino. Layup, layup, layup for Creighton. Wojo had to bring Derrick back into the game.
I guess my question at this point Tower would be what difference does it make?
When we were 2-2 to start Big East play with a couple of close losses I felt differently about it, but at this point I think it's time to let the youth suffer through the growing pains in hopes that the experience gained translates to improvement.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 03:31:10 PM
I guess my question at this point Tower would be what difference does it make?
When we were 2-2 to start Big East play with a couple of close losses I felt differently about it, but at this point I think it's time to let the youth suffer through the growing pains in hopes that the experience gained translates to improvement.
As Vander said above, how much development is going to be gained from experience playing 5-10 more minutes over the next six games? I think people just want their own curiosity satisfied more than anything.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 03:33:31 PM
As Vander said above, how much development is going to be gained from experience playing 5-10 more minutes over the next six games? I think people just want their own curiosity satisfied more than anything.
If the outcome isn't likely to change then at this point the emphasis has to shift in favor of the players returning.
Is Carlino going to play? JJJ and Duane are seeing 30 mpg with him out, so I really am not sure where you want Derrick's minutes to go. Just run JJJ, Duane, Sandy out there until they drop, foul out, or the team is down by 30? Which, against Nova, may be early in the second half against that line up.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 03:31:10 PM
I guess my question at this point Tower would be what difference does it make?
When we were 2-2 to start Big East play with a couple of close losses I felt differently about it, but at this point I think it's time to let the youth suffer through the growing pains in hopes that the experience gained translates to improvement.
Win every day. I can't see Wojo playing guys who give him less chance to win now. It's not like we get a better draft pick if we lose more games. What message would it send to the players? Win every day except when I want to fiddle with the line-up.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 03:35:57 PM
If the outcome isn't likely to change then at this point the emphasis has to shift in favor of the players returning.
Again...why? Getting some game experience isn't going to help as Vander pointed out.
Play to win the game in front of you.
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 16, 2015, 03:37:30 PM
Win every day. I can't see Wojo playing guys who give him less chance to win now. It's not like we get a better draft pick if we lose more games. What message would it send to the players? Win every day except when I want to fiddle with the line-up.
This team is hardly 'winning every day' as it is now. And I thought the 'paint touches' and 'we're not very good' euphemisms were annoying.
This season is over. Let's get the guys who will be here next year as much continuity playing together as they can when it doesn't mean anything.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 03:31:10 PM
I guess my question at this point Tower would be what difference does it make?
When we were 2-2 to start Big East play with a couple of close losses I felt differently about it, but at this point I think it's time to let the youth suffer through the growing pains in hopes that the experience gained translates to improvement.
The difference is that it sends the message that Wojo has given up on the season. I don't care what the record is - when you're a first year coach trying to build a positive mindset around your program, the last thing you want to do is send the message that you give up when things go south.
For those who continue to claim that "it couldn't be worse," all you need to go back and look at the 3 straight easy layups for Creighton when Derrick sat...or ponder the fact that Duane has the 950th best A/T ratio in the country...or note that JJJ is an even worse 3-point shooter than Derrick.
Wojo is doing everything he can to win games, and for now that includes playing Derrick at PG. And I expect him to do it until the last game.
mattyv, in another year, with a roster full of young guys who haven't gotten off of the bench, my attitude could be different. This year, I can't see voluntarily only playing 6-6.5 players when everybody on the team is already receiving more minutes than their play justifies.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 03:45:57 PM
This team is hardly 'winning every day' as it is now. And I thought the 'paint touches' and 'we're not very good' euphemisms were annoying.
This season is over. Let's get the guys who will be here next year as much continuity playing together as they can when it doesn't mean anything.
Again, that kind of continuity is not going to be built over 5-10 additional minutes over 6 games. The idea is coming from a good place but I don't think it will happen because the chances of it making any sort of a difference is pretty minimal. Anyone hoping that Derrick is suddenly going to lose 10-15 MPG is setting themselves up for disappointment.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 03:29:10 PM
As I recall, off fairly simple pick and rolls too.
Quote from: tower912 on February 16, 2015, 03:26:11 PM
Against Creighton, we finally had Duane and JJJ in the backcourt together with no Derrick and no Carlino. Layup, layup, layup for Creighton. Wojo had to bring Derrick back into the game.
It was Artino who was scoring on all of that pick and roll action. It wasn't the guards. But, I understand - anything you two an do to try to support the notion that we HAVE to have Derrick on the floor. It's been 2 years running now and nothing is going to change your minds.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 03:57:57 PM
It was Artino who was scoring on all of that pick and roll action. It wasn't the guards. But, I understand - anything you two an do to try to support the notion that we HAVE to have Derrick on the floor. It's been 2 years running now and nothing is going to change your minds.
What position does Derrick usually cover on defense? Hint: It usually isn't the opposing team's guards.
Derrick leaves the floor, and the opposing team's bigs have a field day.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 03:57:57 PM
It was Artino who was scoring on all of that pick and roll action. It wasn't the guards. But, I understand - anything you two an do to try to support the notion that we HAVE to have Derrick on the floor. It's been 2 years running now and nothing is going to change your minds.
Maybe they are just saying that all of our options kind of suck as of right now. For example, Duane is much more talented than Derrick and much better offensively but he is not a better PG at this time and he is not better defensively. Now that is not me saying Derrick is a good player or that he deserves 35 MPG. You've gotta be able to separate the two things. We are not a well-rounded team. For every strength a player brings there is just as big of a weakness - that's why our record is what it is.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 16, 2015, 03:21:38 PM
Any development that comes from these changes over 6 games will be minimal. Let me make this perfectly clear - this is not a defense of Derrick. I don't care if his minutes are cut. However, any material improvement from Duane, JJJ, and Sandy will come over the offseason and not because they get 5-10 more MPG overall or in different positions for these last 6 games.
Furthermore, Duane and Carlino are NOT point guards. At best they are combo guards but each is more of a two. We are so inept offensively that either of them playing PG and looking to distribute may not be the best solution.
This. Perfectly stated.
I realize fans are just frustrated, but think about what you're saying, guys.
6 games left. "Get (insert player) more minutes!"
Do you really think and extra 5 or 10mpg for the next 6 games is going to make any difference for next season?
For whatever reason, this board has become hyper-obsessed with playing time.
Figure these guys play/practice around 700+ hours per year. You really think an extra 30 min. of playing time in this season is going to make a difference?
Truthfully, the best thing that could happen is that the underclassmen start kicking Derrick and Juan's butt in practice and straight up TAKE their minutes. Now THAT would have value.
Nevermind.
Canned is right. If Derrick is so bad, Duane should be able to take his minutes away. He hasn't. John Dawson didn't.
But it's still Wojo's fault. ::)
Canned goods and ammo, for two years, that is all anyone would have had to do.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2015, 04:03:34 PM
What position does Derrick usually cover on defense? Hint: It usually isn't the opposing team's guards.
Derrick leaves the floor, and the opposing team's bigs have a field day.
LOL - This is rich. Now if Derrick leaves the floor, opposing team's bigs have a field day. ::)
And btw - Derrick was guarding Chatman for Creighton, not one of their bigs.
And for the 3 possessions Derrick was on the bench, Artino scored on 2 of them, and the third trip resulted in a trip to the FT line for Brooks.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 04:22:00 PM
LOL - This is rich. Now if Derrick leaves the floor, opposing team's bigs have a field day. ::)
And btw - Derrick was guarding Chatman for Creighton, not one of their bigs.
And for the 3 possessions Derrick was on the bench, Artino scored on 2 of them, and the third trip resulted in a trip to the FT line for Brooks.
If Chatman blows by his defender and Luke has to give help, that leaves his man open. Having played high school basketball you should know how team defense works.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 04:22:00 PM
LOL - This is rich. Now if Derrick leaves the floor, opposing team's bigs have a field day. ::)
And btw - Derrick was guarding Chatman for Creighton, not one of their bigs.
And for the 3 possessions Derrick was on the bench, Artino scored on 2 of them, and the third trip resulted in a trip to the FT line for Brooks.
You are such an easy target.
Derrick left when it was 51-46. Creighton's next three scores (per ESPN Gametrack) were "Will Artino made Layup." "Will Artino made Layup. Assisted by Austin Chatman." "Will Artino made Layup. Assisted by Devin Brooks."
Never let facts get in the way of your agenda, though....
Basketball 101.
Luke had to come out to defend the pick and rolls often because a guard (oftentimes, but not solely, JJJ and Duane) couldn't get through the pick. The same guard also had trouble rotating down to guard the pass to the big.
Granted Luke hardly distinguished himself, but one would thing that a high school basketball superstar would have the basic basketball knowledge to know that a big scoring on a pick and roll is oftentimes the fault of the guard getting picked out on the perimeter.
My recollection (and I would happily admit to be wrong if shown to be wrong), is that Creighton wasn't nearly as effective running pick and rolls with Derrick in the game.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 04:30:27 PM
My recollection (and I would happily admit to be wrong if shown to be wrong), is that Creighton wasn't nearly as effective running pick and rolls with Derrick in the game.
You are not wrong. Derrick left, and they put on a clinic.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
You are such an easy target.
Derrick left when it was 51-46. Creighton's next three scores (per ESPN Gametrack) were "Will Artino made Layup." "Will Artino made Layup. Assisted by Austin Chatman." "Will Artino made Layup. Assisted by Devin Brooks."
Never let facts get in the way of your agenda, though....
Easy target? That's hilarious. I just re-watched the possessions Derrick was out, and those that preceded him going to the bench. We were having trouble with their pick and roll with Derrick in the game - McDermott made a big adjustment at that stage in the game and started playing pick and roll...Derrick got caught in a roll situation where he played himself into defending the big rolling and the big promptly went to go lay the ball in and Luke had to come help on D and got called for a goal tend.
So to your point above though, so at one point the man Derrick was guarding (Chatman) assisted one of the 3 layups Artino made...so big deal? 1:3 on was facilitated by the player Derrick was defending.
We did manage to score 4 points on the 3 possessions Derrick was on the bench which equals 1.33ppp which is far better than what we do with Derrick in the game.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2015, 04:35:06 PM
You are not wrong. Derrick left, and they put on a clinic.
Now I've jumped all over Ners this year in regards to Derrick for most of the season, but Creighton put on a clinic all game long. If it wasn't the pick and roll it was the corner three followed up with the 'brilliant' decision to switch to the 1-3-1.
Considering that Creighton had four different sequences in which they scored on three straight possessions, three of which Derrick Wilson was on the floor for, I'd hardly use that as 'evidence' that the team can't afford not to have Derrick Wilson in the game.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 04:50:35 PM
Easy target? That's hilarious.
Glad I made you laugh. Lord knows you make me laugh often enough.
I'm done.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 04:30:27 PM
Basketball 101.
Luke had to come out to defend the pick and rolls often because a guard (oftentimes, but not solely, JJJ and Duane) couldn't get through the pick. The same guard also had trouble rotating down to guard the pass to the big.
Granted Luke hardly distinguished himself, but one would thing that a high school basketball superstar would have the basic basketball knowledge to know that a big scoring on a pick and roll is oftentimes the fault of the guard getting picked out on the perimeter.
My recollection (and I would happily admit to be wrong if shown to be wrong), is that Creighton wasn't nearly as effective running pick and rolls with Derrick in the game.
LOl - Is this what sitting in the stands watching high school basketball games told you and your Basketball 101?
You do realize how contradictory your statement is? If you can't get over the pick (which was NOT the case) for any of our guys actually OTHER than Derrick (he got pinned on a big on the pick/roll which I referenced earlier where Luke got called for the goal tend) you then actually HAVE to stay with the big, and our big goes on to take the guard driving toward the basket. You don't do both as you allude to above. Duh. In the possessions referenced, our guards Duane and JJJ were getting over the pick - Luke OVER helped on the penetration - and in over helping his man was free for a dump off.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 04:50:35 PM
Easy target? That's hilarious. I just re-watched the possessions Derrick was out, and those that preceded him going to the bench. We were having trouble with their pick and roll with Derrick in the game - McDermott made a big adjustment at that stage in the game and started playing pick and roll...Derrick got caught in a roll situation where he played himself into defending the big rolling and the big promptly went to go lay the ball in and Luke had to come help on D and got called for a goal tend.
So to your point above though, so at one point the man Derrick was guarding (Chatman) assisted one of the 3 layups Artino made...so big deal? 1:3 on was facilitated by the player Derrick was defending.
We did manage to score 4 points on the 3 possessions Derrick was on the bench which equals 1.33ppp which is far better than what we do with Derrick in the game.
My question is why do you still have the game taking up space on your DVR? The better question may be how many other games do you have ready to access?
And please don't argue PPP based on a 3 possession sample size. And yes, I realize you were refuting a 3 possession sample size on the defensive side.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 16, 2015, 04:53:01 PM
Glad I made you laugh. Lord knows you make me laugh often enough.
I'm done.
Thank you. It will be so nice come next year when I won't have to read ridiculous posts suggesting how vital it is to the team success to have Derrick Wilson on the floor.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 16, 2015, 04:59:23 PM
My question is why do you still have the game taking up space on your DVR? The better question may be how many other games do you have ready to access?
And please don't argue PPP based on a 3 possession sample size. And yes, I realize you were refuting a 3 possession sample size on the defensive side.
Hadn't deleted the game from DVR yet. Don't have any others saved.
As for PPP - Yes, it is a small sample size, just as it was the last game when Duane got roughly 3 possessions at PG with Derrick off the floor and we were bad. What would seem to make sense at this point would be for Wojo to maybe just TRY to see what kind of O-Efficiency we could achieve for a game with Duane playing PG, and limiting Derrick to 10-15 minutes.
I mean we are now down to 174th in the country at 101.4 PPP. Last year we finished a paltry 108th in the country at 108.9PPP. WE have generally been in the Top 40 Nationally every year since 2002 other than 2005 (94th) when Marcus Jackson was our PG after Diener went down and 2012 (52nd).
There is one common denominator last year and this year. TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT WOJO.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 04:55:06 PM
LOl - Is this what sitting in the stands watching high school basketball games told you and your Basketball 101?
You do realize how contradictory your statement is? If you can't get over the pick (which was NOT the case) for any of our guys actually OTHER than Derrick (he got pinned on a big on the pick/roll which I referenced earlier where Luke got called for the goal tend) you then actually HAVE to stay with the big, and our big goes on to take the guard driving toward the basket. You don't do both as you allude to above. Duh. In the possessions referenced, our guards Duane and JJJ were getting over the pick - Luke OVER helped on the penetration - and in over helping his man was free for a dump off.
Without debating whether or not it actually happened, what sultan said is the same Damn thing you said, you just didn't read the damn sentence correctly. Sultan is saying the guards couldn't get through the pick so they had to switch, and then the guards couldn't guard who they had to switch to.
THAT is basketball 101, I dunked in high school Rob Lowe
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 04:07:24 PM
Nevermind.
Canned is right. If Derrick is so bad, Duane should be able to take his minutes away. He hasn't. John Dawson didn't.
But it's still Wojo's fault. ::)
Dawson is at Liberty. Enough said.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 16, 2015, 06:17:54 PM
Dawson is at Liberty. Enough said.
And McKay and Burton upgraded programs to Iowa State. That says more about the state of MUBB than anything else. Sad.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:20:32 PM
And McKay and Burton upgraded programs to Iowa State. That says more about the state of MUBB than anything else. Sad.
Mutual disappointment is in the future for Burton and Iowa State.
Quote from: LittleWade on February 16, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
Mutual disappointment is in the future for Burton and Iowa State.
Disappointment is relative. They'll be disappointed when they get knocked out of the NCAAT the next couple of years while Scoop will disappointed Marquette will be watching the NCAAT from home.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
Disappointment is relative. They'll be disappointed when they get knocked out of the NCAAT the next couple of years while Scoop will disappointed Marquette will be watching the NCAAT from home.
+1
When Iowa State is going to be a 3-4 seed in the NCAAT and Marquette is toiling away at 11-14 overall we now can definitively answer that indeed we are a stepping stone program.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
Disappointment is relative. They'll be disappointed when they get knocked out of the NCAAT the next couple of years while Scoop will disappointed Marquette will be watching the NCAAT from home.
You seem to be saying that Burton will be the difference in MU not making the tournament and in getting Iowas State into the tournament. Both assertions are delusional.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:38:47 PM
When Iowa State is going to be a 3-4 seed in the NCAAT and Marquette is toiling away at 11-14 overall we now can definitively answer that indeed we are a stepping stone program.
You have the attention span of a gnat.
This program won the old Big East Conference and was in the Elite 8 less than 24 months ago.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:38:47 PM
When Iowa State is going to be a 3-4 seed in the NCAAT and Marquette is toiling away at 11-14 overall we now can definitively answer that indeed we are a stepping stone program.
Here's what you should do mattyv, you're such an expert on everything wrong with our program with zero ideas on what you would do at this point as evidenced by our back and forth a couple of days ago, just throw in your hat as a Cyclone fan, worship McKay and Burton as the second coming, join whatever the Cyclone board is, and post how wonderful it is to be a fan of their program, and stop trolling this board with nonsense. You can tell all your Cyclone fan buddies how much we suck in the meantime, and how lucky you are to have taken a guy like Burton away from us, and how enjoyable it is never to see him play any team defense, or pass to an open teammate.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
Disappointment is relative. They'll be disappointed when they get knocked out of the NCAAT the next couple of years while Scoop will disappointed Marquette will be watching the NCAAT from home.
Are you even a MU fan? Any posts of yours that I've seen in the past were pretty objective and without emotion. This seems to be filled with vitriol. And doesn't seem to be in-line with someone who went to or is a fan of Marquette. Not saying you can't be a fan of some place and disagree or be disappointed with it, but this was just different from you.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 16, 2015, 07:24:32 PM
Are you even a MU fan? Any posts of yours that I've seen in the past were pretty objective and without emotion. This seems to be filled with vitriol. And doesn't seem to be in-line with someone who went to or is a fan of Marquette. Not saying you can't be a fan of some place and disagree or be disappointed with it, but this was just different from you.
It was made in response to Murs commenting on Iowa State and Burton and their impending disappointment. The irony of a fan of Marquette currently in last place knocking another program on the upswing is what this comment was in reference to.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 06:41:02 PM
You have the attention span of a gnat.
This program won the old Big East Conference and was in the Elite 8 less than 24 months ago.
24 months in the world of college basketball is a long time Sultan.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
24 months in the world of college basketball is a long time Sultan.
How trite.
Marquette has seen a lot darker days than this year and has turned out just fine. Marquette will be fine again.
Quote from: LittleWade on February 16, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
You seem to be saying that Burton will be the difference in MU not making the tournament and in getting Iowas State into the tournament. Both assertions are delusional.
I never suggested that at all. I merely pointed out that if Dawson is judged for transferring to Liberty as being a downgrade that Burton and McKay should be viewed positively for going to a school that is currently much more successful.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 16, 2015, 05:48:18 PM
Without debating whether or not it actually happened, what sultan said is the same Damn thing you said, you just didn't read the damn sentence correctly. Sultan is saying the guards couldn't get through the pick so they had to switch, and then the guards couldn't guard who they had to switch to.
THAT is basketball 101, I dunked in high school Rob Lowe
Ahh no - Sultan did NOT say what I was saying. Sultan was saying that Duane and JJJ couldn't get through the picks set, and as a result Luke had to help - and we then were left in a position of JJJ/Duane not being able to guard the big man left open due to Duane/JJJ not being able to get over/through the ball screen.
The problem with Sultan's analysis, per usual, is he's wrong: JJJ and Duane were both getting "through" which is really a wrong term - you get "over" a screen. Ironically, the one guy who did NOT get "over or through" a screen in the 4 minute sequence I re-watched (the two minutes before Derrick went out and the two minutes he was out) was actually Derrick! Derrick then had to guard their big. The guard promptly dumped the ball to the big on the roll who easily turned to bank a shot off that glass that Luke had to goaltend.
The problem with our pick and roll defense against Creighton had NOTHING to do with Derrick Wilson being out of the game. But, again, Sultan and the other bozos have their narrative to try to grasp to anything they possibly can to try to justify why Derrick Wilson is so valuable and necessary to have on the floor - because let's face it - there isn't anything in the boxscore that you can point to as to how he is so vital.
Nevermind.
I suggest that Ners either learns how to read better or fix his television.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 16, 2015, 07:35:24 PM
How trite.
Marquette has seen a lot darker days than this year and has turned out just fine. Marquette will be fine again.
You just shifted the goal posts Sultan.
Seriously, in six more games we'll have only one player (Taylor) associated with the team that won a regular season conference title (different conference) under a different head coach.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 07:45:43 PM
Ahh no - Sultan did NOT say what I was saying. Sultan was saying that Duane and JJJ couldn't get through the picks set, and as a result Luke had to help - and we then were left in a position of JJJ/Duane not being able to guard the big man left open due to Duane/JJJ not being able to get over/through the ball screen.
The problem with Sultan's analysis, per usual, is he's wrong: JJJ and Duane were both getting "through" which is really a wrong term - you get "over" a screen. Ironically, the one guy who did NOT get "over or through" a screen in the 4 minute sequence I re-watched (the two minutes before Derrick went out and the two minutes he was out) was actually Derrick! Derrick then had to guard their big. The guard promptly dumped the ball to the big on the roll who easily turned to bank a shot off that glass that Luke had to goaltend.
The problem with our pick and roll defense against Creighton had NOTHING to do with Derrick Wilson being out of the game. But, again, Sultan and the other bozos have their narrative to try to grasp to anything they possibly can to try to justify why Derrick Wilson is so valuable and necessary to have on the floor - because let's face it - there isn't anything in the boxscore that you can point to as to how he is so vital.
I don't know what to tell you if you don't think getting "through" a screen is a valid term. You can go over or under a screen, either way you gotta get through it in order to get back to your man and not force your big to switch and cause a size/speed mismatch.
All hail ners..................give me a dam break there's a thread on this clown every week. Ridiculous.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 07:31:49 PM
It was made in response to Murs commenting on Iowa State and Burton and their impending disappointment. The irony of a fan of Marquette currently in last place knocking another program on the upswing is what this comment was in reference to.
Fair enough, makes sense. Carry on.
Rocky, can you open up a special deal for Ners like the political thread?
Quote from: real chili 83 on February 16, 2015, 09:19:48 PM
Rocky, can you open up a special deal for Ners like the political thread?
Nope appernetly ners is the face of Marquette basketball. Change this area to hangin with ners
Quote from: Johnny B on February 16, 2015, 10:52:10 PM
Nope appernetly ners is the face of Marquette basketball. Change this area to hangin with ners
Huh? Giving him his own board would be less visibility? More like...if everyone would ignore him.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 07:45:43 PM
But, again, Sultan and the other bozos have their narrative to try to grasp to anything they possibly can to try to justify why Derrick Wilson is so valuable and necessary to have on the floor - because let's face it - there isn't anything in the boxscore that you can point to as to how he is so vital.
Runaway early leader for most ironic post of the year?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2015, 10:54:48 PM
Huh? Giving him his own board would be less visibility? More like...if everyone would ignore him.
it was sarcasm..... And yes ignoring him/her would be the best solution to this issue. A great way to ignore him would be to get rid of these ludicrous threads about ners and his just bizzare thoughts on this program, but don't take my advice I'm no ners..
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2015, 10:54:48 PM
Huh? Giving him his own board would be less visibility? More like...if everyone would ignore him.
But as everyone won't ignore him, it kind of makes ignoring him useless for an individual.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2015, 11:13:16 PM
But as everyone won't ignore him, it kind of makes ignoring him useless for an individual.
You just need to resist the urge to reply. You don't even have to use the ignore button (I don't).
Quote from: Johnny B on February 16, 2015, 11:06:41 PM
it was sarcasm..... And yes ignoring him/her would be the best solution to this issue. A great way to ignore him would be to get rid of these ludicrous threads about ners and his just bizzare thoughts on this program, but don't take my advice I'm no ners..
Fair enough. "Hangin' with Ners" it is.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2015, 11:19:43 PM
You just need to resist the urge to reply. You don't even have to use the ignore button (I don't).
I do. But others don't, which undermines the whole ignore thing.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 08:12:30 PM
You just shifted the goal posts Sultan.
Seriously, in six more games we'll have only one player (Taylor) associated with the team that won a regular season conference title (different conference) under a different head coach.
Sultan does that all the time. He has never been wrong and always is right. Even when he is shown he is wrong. Then he shifts, or dodges it. But we all respect his opinions, because they are always right. Ask him.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 16, 2015, 11:24:40 PM
I do. But others don't, which undermines the whole ignore thing.
Brew, it is a little bit about self control. Ners has none, you most likely do, either ignore his posts or don't read them. You can read and comment on Ners quoted posts too, just don't read what Ners wrote. I've been doing it for a couple of weeks now and it works great.
Besides, Ners is the least of the issues on the board right now. 24 months of struggles in the program even with a clear path to a strong revitalization over the next couple of years brings out a strong amount of whining and hand wringing. Let's all debate whats going on but the vitriol seems to have gone to 11 lately.
The simple elegance of Tower912's signature line gets me through many a post.
Real Warriors don't whine.
I understand it is very frustrating for those who have championed and taken up for Derrick and Wojo to continue to have to deal with the fallacy of their ways.
It's really quite simple - stop polishing the damn turd - and I won't have anything to say.
But instead it is slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp. And excuse after excuse after excuse for trying to rationalize why it is justifiable for us to be 11-14 and 3-10 in Big East play while Derrick Wilson plays 35+ minutes per night.
It is actually embarrassing the level of delusion some of you have gone to try to justify and support your position. Thank God Wojo won't have a choice but to play someone else at PG next year, and along with that alone we will win more games.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 09:20:45 AM
I understand it is very frustrating for those who have championed and taken up for Derrick and Wojo to continue to have to deal with the fallacy of their ways.
It's really quite simple - stop polishing the damn turd - and I won't have anything to say.
But instead it is slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp. And excuse after excuse after excuse for trying to rationalize why it is justifiable for us to be 11-14 and 3-10 in Big East play while Derrick Wilson plays 35+ minutes per night.
It is actually embarrassing the level of delusion some of you have gone to try to justify and support your position. Thank God Wojo won't have a choice but to play someone else at PG next year, and along with that alone we will win more games.
I think we're having a communication breakdown again.
Nobody is saying that Derrick is awesome and should play 35+ mpg. No. Body. If somebody has, feel free to bring it to my attention and I'll call that person a bunch of names.
The conversation really isn't about Derrick, it's about the other options.
What people HAVE said is Wojo's options are limited, and the guys behind Derrick haven't shown the consistency required to play big minutes.
Now, we can debate JJJ's effectiveness, longer leash, mind games, thrown under the bus, etc. etc. etc. and that's fine. There 18 pages about that.
But, please don't pretend like like people WANT Derrick to play 35mpg. Derrick is what he is. He's a fantastic kid, who can likely be effective for about 20mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't another good option (in Wojo's mind) to fill the other 20mpg.
That it. Let's at lease be clear with what we are talking about. Everybody recognizes Derrick limitations. We just disagree about the other options.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 09:45:37 AM
I think we're having a communication breakdown again.
Nobody is saying that Derrick is awesome and should play 35+ mpg. No. Body. If somebody has, feel free to bring it to my attention and I'll call that person a bunch of names.
The conversation really isn't about Derrick, it's about the other options.
What people HAVE said is Wojo's options are limited, and the guys behind Derrick haven't shown the consistency required to play big minutes.
Now, we can debate JJJ's effectiveness, longer leash, mind games, thrown under the bus, etc. etc. etc. and that's fine. There 18 pages about that.
But, please don't pretend like like people WANT Derrick to play 35mpg. Derrick is what he is. He's a fantastic kid, who can likely be effective for about 20mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't another good option (in Wojo's mind) to fill the other 20mpg.
That it. Let's at lease be clear with what we are talking about. Everybody recognizes Derrick limitations. We just disagree about the other options.
Ammo, you are pounding your head against the wall. Your argument makes all the sense in the world, but it's like arguing with an Islamic radical. He sees the world from a demented point of view. Can't argue logically with him.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 09:45:37 AM
I think we're having a communication breakdown again.
Nobody is saying that Derrick is awesome and should play 35+ mpg. No. Body. If somebody has, feel free to bring it to my attention and I'll call that person a bunch of names.
The conversation really isn't about Derrick, it's about the other options.
What people HAVE said is Wojo's options are limited, and the guys behind Derrick haven't shown the consistency required to play big minutes.
Now, we can debate JJJ's effectiveness, longer leash, mind games, thrown under the bus, etc. etc. etc. and that's fine. There 18 pages about that.
But, please don't pretend like like people WANT Derrick to play 35mpg. Derrick is what he is. He's a fantastic kid, who can likely be effective for about 20mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't another good option (in Wojo's mind) to fill the other 20mpg.
That it. Let's at lease be clear with what we are talking about. Everybody recognizes Derrick limitations. We just disagree about the other options.
You are wrong about one thing Ammo. Hardly anybody is saying Derrick is awesome, but there are about 10 or so people on this board that say and believe he should plat 35 mpg. You may have missed that.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 09:45:37 AM
I think we're having a communication breakdown again.
Nobody is saying that Derrick is awesome and should play 35+ mpg. No. Body. If somebody has, feel free to bring it to my attention and I'll call that person a bunch of names.
The conversation really isn't about Derrick, it's about the other options.
What people HAVE said is Wojo's options are limited, and the guys behind Derrick haven't shown the consistency required to play big minutes.
Now, we can debate JJJ's effectiveness, longer leash, mind games, thrown under the bus, etc. etc. etc. and that's fine. There 18 pages about that.
But, please don't pretend like like people WANT Derrick to play 35mpg. Derrick is what he is. He's a fantastic kid, who can likely be effective for about 20mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't another good option (in Wojo's mind) to fill the other 20mpg.
That it. Let's at lease be clear with what we are talking about. Everybody recognizes Derrick limitations. We just disagree about the other options.
Thank you. Now your response won't make a difference to Ners' viewpoint but this is exactly right. With the circumstances of our team this year we are likely right around 11-14, 3-10 right now regardless of if Derrick is playing 35 MPG or 15 MPG. Ners completely overestimates the current talent on the team. Aside from Carlino, our most talented players are nowhere near finished products.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 10:28:30 AM
You are wrong about one thing Ammo. Hardly anybody is saying Derrick is awesome, but there are about 10 or so people on this board that say and believe he should plat 35 mpg. You may have missed that.
Here's an important distinction:
A. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because he's AWESOME?
B. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because there aren't better options?
I don't know that anybody has argued "A". It's more about option "B", which really isn't about Derrick, but about the other options available.
To put it another way, I never thought Ousmane Barro was a great player, but he deserved all of the minutes he got because he was the best option on those teams.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Here's an important distinction:
A. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because he's AWESOME?
B. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because there aren't better options?
I don't know that anybody has argued "A". It's more about option "B", which really isn't about Derrick, but about the other options available.
To put it another way, I never thought Ousmane Barro was a great player, but he deserved all of the minutes he got because he was the best option on those teams.
But there are other options right now. End of that theory.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 09:45:37 AM
I think we're having a communication breakdown again.
Nobody is saying that Derrick is awesome and should play 35+ mpg. No. Body. If somebody has, feel free to bring it to my attention and I'll call that person a bunch of names.
The conversation really isn't about Derrick, it's about the other options.
What people HAVE said is Wojo's options are limited, and the guys behind Derrick haven't shown the consistency required to play big minutes.
Now, we can debate JJJ's effectiveness, longer leash, mind games, thrown under the bus, etc. etc. etc. and that's fine. There 18 pages about that.
But, please don't pretend like like people WANT Derrick to play 35mpg. Derrick is what he is. He's a fantastic kid, who can likely be effective for about 20mpg. Unfortunately, there isn't another good option (in Wojo's mind) to fill the other 20mpg.
That it. Let's at lease be clear with what we are talking about. Everybody recognizes Derrick limitations. We just disagree about the other options.
I appreciate the spirit of your post. I understand the theory and thought process that in Wojo's mind (or Buzz's) last year there isn't/wasn't another good option to play in the PG role for 25-30 minutes per game.
I could go along with that line of thinking a little more last season, as Dawson was just a freshman, and green at PG position - and essentially the only other option. Of course I still believe it would have been better for Buzz to deal with Dawson's growing pains and just play him 25+ per game the last 10 games of the year, as it was painfully obvious if Derrick continued to play 30+ we weren't going to be an NCAA team.
Now, for this season, once again we are losing at a high rate, we now have Carlino and Duane Wilson on the roster, and Wojo REFUSES to adjust. We essentially have been starting 3 PG type/stature players out there. Carlino and Duane are absolutely capable of running PG - and in reality even in that role, they get to play off the ball a decent amount as well. Meanwhile, Wojo could have played a talented prospect like Burton more, or now JJJ (prior to Carlino's injury) more in that 3rd guard spot. Burton and JJJ had/have a lot more potential value to the future of the program than does Derrick.
Sorry, I just feel Wojo was incredibly short sighted in his approach, and simply wrong as far as how he chose to allocate minutes to the resources available on his roster. His call of course. But his record now. His 8strong roster now. That falls at his feet.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 10:42:43 AM
But there are other options right now. End of that theory.
Right, and that's fine. We can scream at each other all we want about that.
I just think it's disingenuous to paint people as "Derrick slurpers".
Quote from: Ellenson for an mu-rara on February 17, 2015, 10:10:45 AM
Ammo, you are pounding your head against the wall. Your argument makes all the sense in the world, but it's like arguing with an Islamic radical. He sees the world from a demented point of view. Can't argue logically with him.
LOL - And right back at you. I see those who disagree on this matter with an equally illogical and demented view of the basketball world.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 10:44:16 AM
I appreciate the spirit of your post. I understand the theory and thought process that in Wojo's mind (or Buzz's) last year there isn't/wasn't another good option to play in the PG role for 25-30 minutes per game.
I could go along with that line of thinking a little more last season, as Dawson was just a freshman, and green at PG position - and essentially the only other option. Of course I still believe it would have been better for Buzz to deal with Dawson's growing pains and just play him 25+ per game the last 10 games of the year, as it was painfully obvious if Derrick continued to play 30+ we weren't going to be an NCAA team.
Now, for this season, once again we are losing at a high rate, we now have Carlino and Duane Wilson on the roster, and Wojo REFUSES to adjust. We essentially have been starting 3 PG type/stature players out there. Carlino and Duane are absolutely capable of running PG - and in reality even in that role, they get to play off the ball a decent amount as well. Meanwhile, Wojo could have played a talented prospect like Burton more, or now JJJ (prior to Carlino's injury) more in that 3rd guard spot. Burton and JJJ had/have a lot more potential value to the future of the program than does Derrick.
Sorry, I just feel Wojo was incredibly short sighted in his approach, and simply wrong as far as how he chose to allocate minutes to the resources available on his roster. His call of course. But his record now. His 8strong roster now. That falls at his feet.
This is fine. You can rant and rave all you want about Wojo, and running players off, and throwing Burton under the bus, etc. etc.
It's just unfair to paint people as "Derrick Slurpers".
Nobody is a Derrick slurper. People simply don't like the other options as much as you do. So, feel free to debate all of the other options. Go nuts. I have nothing to add.
But, let's be clear and fair about the debate.
The debate is not "Is Derrick Wilson Awesome?"
The debate is: "Are there better options than Derrick Wilson?"
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Right, and that's fine. We can scream at each other all we want about that.
I just think it's disingenuous to paint people as "Derrick slurpers".
I guess we disagree on that. And that does not make it disingenuous.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 10:55:18 AM
I guess we disagree on that. And that does not make it disingenuous.
So just to be clear, your assertion is that there are members of this forum who think Derrick Wilson is an awesome basketball player who should play 35+ minutes per game because he's awesome at basketball?
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 10:44:16 AM
Now, for this season, once again we are losing at a high rate, we now have Carlino and Duane Wilson on the roster, and Wojo REFUSES to adjust. We essentially have been starting 3 PG type/stature players out there. Carlino and Duane are absolutely capable of running PG - and in reality even in that role, they get to play off the ball a decent amount as well. Meanwhile, Wojo could have played a talented prospect like Burton more, or now JJJ (prior to Carlino's injury) more in that 3rd guard spot. Burton and JJJ had/have a lot more potential value to the future of the program than does Derrick.
Let's be clear - their stature does not mean they will be an effective point guard. Carlino and Duane are both undersized two guards at this point and combo guards at best. Neither is a pure point. And as always, I am issuing my disclaimer for you that my post does not mean I love Derrick and think he should play 35+ MPG.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 10:54:44 AM
This is fine. You can rant and rave all you want about Wojo, and running players off, and throwing Burton under the bus, etc. etc.
It's just unfair to paint people as "Derrick Slurpers".
Nobody is a Derrick slurper. People simply don't like the other options as much as you do. So, feel free to debate all of the other options. Go nuts. I have nothing to add.
But, let's be clear and fair about the debate.
The debate is not "Is Derrick Wilson Awesome?"
The debate is: "Are their better options than Derrick Wilson?"
I could go along with this, except some here have said Derrick Wilson is a better PG than Junior Cadougan and Dwight Buycks.
Hell, look at my signature - this dates back to December of 2013. LOL.
And here's another issue - I read post after post from Tower and Sultan suggesting that Buzz got caught with his pants down after Vander left and then the Duane injury - and that Duane would have been our savior at PG LAST season - yet now this year, with one more year of high major practice/strength and conditioning experience - Duane still apparently cannot play PG??? The reality is, Duane can/could - just as Carlino can/could - and Wojo chooses otherwise. And, like I said, Wojo's call - yet the quality of his decision-making ultimately is reflected in our record.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2015, 10:59:23 AM
Let's be clear - their stature does not mean they will be an effective point guard. Carlino and Duane are both undersized two guards at this point and combo guards at best. Neither is a pure point. And as always, I am issuing my disclaimer for you that my post does not mean I love Derrick and think he should play 35+ MPG.
Question: If you are concerned about someone being an effective point guard - Is Derrick?
Now, I agree that stature doesn't mean a guy is a PG - but, when you are playing 3, 6'1" guys along your perimeter, you have such limited length that it does hurt you on the defensive end.
As for "pure point guard," in my view that is largely an irrelevant characteristic. Was Kemba Walker a pure point? Shabazz Napier? Is Brandon Knight for the Bucks? Just because a guy can score, and does shoot, does not by any means exclude him from being a weapon and good choice to play at PG. In fact I argue teams with dynamic shooters/scorers at PG become some of the best teams.
Until next year can the mods change the name of this website to "DerrickWilsonScoop" to give a more accurate branding of what this board is about?
Clearly Marquette needs a better starting PG than Derrick Wilson. But JJJ hasn't exactly set the world on fire either so it's hard to say he clearly should be starting. Look at his last game:
31 min 3 pts 1 reb 3 ast 3 TO 1-7 FG
Hmm, I thought just playing 25 min per game was some sort of magic elixir but I guess not. JJJ has had a very inconsistent career. If you look at MU's roster, how many are truly starting caliber for a quality BE team? Carlino, Du. Wilson, Fischer (average big man but at MU feels like a superstar). Juan Anderson maybe a fringe starter/6th man. So let's call it 3.5 starters. With Carlino out that's 2.5 starters. Wonder why MU's record is what it is?
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
Here's an important distinction:
A. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because he's AWESOME?
B. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because there aren't better options?
I don't know that anybody has argued "A". It's more about option "B", which really isn't about Derrick, but about the other options available.
To put it another way, I never thought Ousmane Barro was a great player, but he deserved all of the minutes he got because he was the best option on those teams.
You are correct. For me, the answer is B. I am not aware of anybody here who has argued A.
Anyone who thinks there are better options hasn't been paying attention...to the fact that Matt clearly needs to play off the ball to get any shots, and that Duane has an abysmal A/TO ratio even without the pressure of being the primary ball handler. If either became our primary PG, we'd be even worse from 3, and we'd lose more possessions to TOs. Our defense would also suffer.
I'd love for someone to step up and take about 15 mpg from Derrick...but I don't fault Wojo for not just giving them away.
Quote from: Lazars Headband on February 17, 2015, 11:16:32 AM
Clearly Marquette needs a better starting PG than Derrick Wilson. But JJJ hasn't exactly set the world on fire either so it's hard to say he clearly should be starting. Look at his last game:
31 min 3 pts 1 reb 3 ast 3 TO 1-7 FG
Hmm, I thought just playing 25 min per game was some sort of magic elixir but I guess not. JJJ has had a very inconsistent career. If you look at MU's roster, how many are truly starting caliber for a quality BE team? Carlino, Du. Wilson, Fischer (average big man but at MU feels like a superstar). Juan Anderson maybe a fringe starter/6th man. So let's call it 3.5 starters. With Carlino out that's 2.5 starters. Wonder why MU's record is what it is?
Are you serious with this crap? I never said 25 minutes is a magic elixir - I said that generally speaking play JJJ 25+ and you will get some solid numbers. Said it doesn't mean he automatically produces those numbers. He had a bomb of a game against Creighton was awful.
I could just as easily go pick his best game of the year - Arizona State - and make a counter argument.
Why do you think JJJ has had a very inconsistent career?? Let me offer you a reason - because his role and playing time have been wildly inconsistent.
Meanwhile we have a guy who has had the most consistent role you could ever hope for, playing 33 minutes per game for 2 seasons in a row - and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that generally will lead to 5ppg, 45% FT shooting, no shots attempted other than layups, while our team has its worst offensive efficiency two seasons in a row under his direction.
I'd rather play a guy that in his now 9 games of getting 25+ minutes gives you roughly 11.5ppg, 4 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 steals. And he's a sophomore.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 17, 2015, 10:56:38 AM
So just to be clear, your assertion is that there are members of this forum who think Derrick Wilson is an awesome basketball player who should play 35+ minutes per game because he's awesome at basketball?
Reading is fundamental. I did not say that. But to answer your question. There are people on this board who think it is fine for Derrick to be playing 35 + minutes per game, because they believe he is deserving of that, or that they have some other rationale, including some that really aren't interested in seeing how Duane does. Some don't want to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. Even though there are other options available to try for the remaining games. And likely, there are probably a rare few who think he is awesome. at basketball. Look at some of the posts: "He is an elite defender"; "He is a great rebounder"," He is a great leader".
I would suggest to you that you that perhaps spend more time critiquing his game rather than trying to put statements out there that I did not make. But it is a great country, and you can spend your time anyway you desire.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 11:08:04 AM
Question: If you are concerned about someone being an effective point guard - Is Derrick?
Now, I agree that stature doesn't mean a guy is a PG - but, when you are playing 3, 6'1" guys along your perimeter, you have such limited length that it does hurt you on the defensive end.
As for "pure point guard," in my view that is largely an irrelevant characteristic. Was Kemba Walker a pure point? Shabazz Napier? Is Brandon Knight for the Bucks? Just because a guy can score, and does shoot, does not by any means exclude him from being a weapon and good choice to play at PG. In fact I argue teams with dynamic shooters/scorers at PG become some of the best teams.
I've said many times before Derrick is not a starting caliber PG on a good team. I also have no problem with a combo guard playing the majority of minutes at point. The problem is we don't have Kemba Walker or Shabazz Napier on this team.
IMO, Duane is not ready to play point yet and throwing him out there in that role for the last 6 games isn't going to do any good. Right now he is a 2G in a PG body. I'm pretty adamant that most improvement will come during the offseason. If Wojo wants to groom Duane to play point next season I'm good with that (and it might be necessary based on who he can bring in). I think Carlino is better suited to play point but our team's offensive options are so limited right now having him in a distributor role which takes away some scoring opportunities probably isn't the best solution either.
We are a deeply flawed team with no good solutions at this point. While Derrick is not an effective PG I'm not so sure putting Carlino and Duane at PG and perhaps taking away some of their opportunities to score the ball make us a better team. Or a less crappy team is probably more accurate. Unless Derrick gets hurt he is going to play 30 MPG the rest of the way - it's the reality.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2015, 11:18:09 AM
You are correct. For me, the answer is B. I am not aware of anybody here who has argued A.
Anyone who thinks there are better options hasn't been paying attention...to the fact that Matt clearly needs to play off the ball to get any shots, and that Duane has an abysmal A/TO ratio even without the pressure of being the primary ball handler. If either became our primary PG, we'd be even worse from 3, and we'd lose more possessions to TOs. Our defense would also suffer.
I'd love for someone to step up and take about 15 mpg from Derrick...but I don't fault Wojo for not just giving them away.
LMAO. What is the saying? The definition of craziness: Keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now is the time to try something different--and I don't mean playing Luke or Juan at PG as Sultan humorously? stated.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2015, 11:53:04 AM
I've said many times before Derrick is not a starting caliber PG on a good team. I also have no problem with a combo guard playing the majority of minutes at point. The problem is we don't have Kemba Walker or Shabazz Napier on this team.
IMO, Duane is not ready to play point yet and throwing him out there in that role for the last 6 games isn't going to do any good. Right now he is a 2G in a PG body. I'm pretty adamant that most improvement will come during the offseason. If Wojo wants to groom Duane to play point next season I'm good with that (and it might be necessary based on who he can bring in). I think Carlino is better suited to play point but our team's offensive options are so limited right now having him in a distributor role which takes away some scoring opportunities probably isn't the best solution either.
We are a deeply flawed team with no good solutions at this point. While Derrick is not an effective PG I'm not so sure putting Carlino and Duane at PG and perhaps taking away some of their opportunities to score the ball make us a better team. Or a less crappy team is probably more accurate. Unless Derrick gets hurt he is going to play 30 MPG the rest of the way - it's the reality.
Here's the rub: What does Wojo have to lose at this point?
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt this season is over, and if nothing changes, nothing is going to change.
And while it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that a guard combination of Carlino, Duane, JJJ paired with Steve and Luke/Juan and Luke - could lead us on a run through the Big East tourney to the most improbable of improbable NCAA bids - why not change course at this point?
Will Duane getting 6 games of PG experience this year drastically improve him for the role next year? No. But, will that experience have value - absolutely.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 12:12:43 PM
Here's the rub: What does Wojo have to lose at this point?
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt this season is over, and if nothing changes, nothing is going to change.
And while it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that a guard combination of Carlino, Duane, JJJ paired with Steve and Luke/Juan and Luke - could lead us on a run through the Big East tourney to the most improbable of improbable NCAA bids - why not change course at this point?
Will Duane getting 6 games of PG experience this year drastically improve him for the role next year? No. But, will that experience have value - absolutely.
If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others. It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not). It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be. It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season.
Duane getting 6 games of PG experience could have positive value. Or he is not ready to play the position for that many minutes and it could have adverse impact. The problem is you don't allow for the latter possibility.
There are 6 games left. Take a deep breath and just start letting it go. You'll do yourself and this board a whole lot of good.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 11:55:08 AM
LMAO. What is the saying? The definition of craziness: Keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now is the time to try something different--and I don't mean playing Luke or Juan at PG as Sultan humorously? stated.
So your continued arguing that MU should bench Derrick means you're crazy?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2015, 12:54:00 PM
If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others. It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not). It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be. It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season.
Playing for next year also sends the message that Wojo has given up on the season. It doesn't matter how hopeless the season has become, that isn't a message he should send.
At this point, I really don't care who gets minutes. We're not going anywhere this season. I see three possible outlooks:
1. Play the underclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Get the younger guys more game time experience. Possibly appease any future players who are upset about playing time.
Con: Probably means worse results this season. Could be seen as screwing over the seniors.
2. Play the upperclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Rewards seniors for all of their hard work. Keeps underclassmen from getting disheartened by being overmatched this season.
Con: Younger guys feel cheated out of playing time. Younger guys miss game time experience.
3. Play to win, regardless of the record.
Pro: Best on the court performance this season. No one feels they are being cheated.
Con: Younger guy miss out on a few minutes of game time experience.
I see logic to all three. Personally, I'd go with the last option. Honestly, it won't make much difference which Wojo takes.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2015, 01:01:21 PM
So your continued arguing that MU should bench Derrick means you're crazy?
Didn't say that, you did. I did not say bench him I said reduce his minutes. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine that 28-29 last two years is not working. What is your fear? Explain that instead of critiquing every word.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 01:13:17 PM
Didn't say that, you did. I did not say bench him I said reduce his minutes. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine that 28-29 last two years is not working. What is your fear? Explain that instead of critiquing every word.
Where would he sit when he isn't playing? "Benching" a guy doesn't have to mean 0 mpg.
But since you asked what I fear: I fear Wojo sending the message that he has quit on the season, which sends the wrong message to players. I get that the season is done, you get that the season is done - even Wojo gets that the season is done. But the last thing he needs to do now is take an action that sends that message to current (and potential future) players.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 17, 2015, 01:13:01 PM
At this point, I really don't care who gets minutes. We're not going anywhere this season. I see three possible outlooks:
1. Play the underclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Get the younger guys more game time experience. Possibly appease any future players who are upset about playing time.
Con: Probably means worse results this season. Could be seen as screwing over the seniors.
2. Play the upperclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Rewards seniors for all of their hard work. Keeps underclassmen from getting disheartened by being overmatched this season.
Con: Younger guys feel cheated out of playing time. Younger guys miss game time experience.
3. Play to win, regardless of the record.
Pro: Best on the court performance this season. No one feels they are being cheated.
Con: Younger guy miss out on a few minutes of game time experience.
I see logic to all three. Personally, I'd go with the last option. Honestly, it won't make much difference which Wojo takes.
It won't make much difference this season, and it won't make much difference next season. But if he doesn't choose option #3, it sends a message that we aren't always going to do everything we think we need to do to win every game. Not a good signal for a first-year coach to send.
Quote from: LittleWade on February 17, 2015, 09:10:35 AM
The simple elegance of Tower912's signature line gets me through many a post.
Real Warriors don't whine.
To be fair, I have been contemplating changing it to 'ners free since 1/21/15'.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 11:50:25 AM
Reading is fundamental. I did not say that. But to answer your question. There are people on this board who think it is fine for Derrick to be playing 35 + minutes per game, because they believe he is deserving of that, or that they have some other rationale, including some that really aren't interested in seeing how Duane does. Some don't want to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. Even though there are other options available to try for the remaining games. And likely, there are probably a rare few who think he is awesome. at basketball. Look at some of the posts: "He is an elite defender"; "He is a great rebounder"," He is a great leader".
I would suggest to you that you that perhaps spend more time critiquing his game rather than trying to put statements out there that I did not make. But it is a great country, and you can spend your time anyway you desire.
Again, thinking Derrick should play 35mpg on this team is not the same as saying Derrick should play 35mpg.
I know it's a small distinction, but it's an important one to make.
Several people here think Derrick is the best out of some bad options. Now you can argue all you want about that. But, please don't claim that people around here are "Derrick slurpers". It's not accurate.
The other thing this play the newcomers now agreement ignores is what could happen to this team if it appears Wojo and the whole organization have given up and are playing completely for next year. Things could get much uglier than they are now. Look at SH, a team that is in a complete tailspin. You've got guys mouthing off to each other, Gibbs punching a guy in the face. If we're going to lose lets lose with some dignity. Do we really want Duane to be forced to bring the ball up against Nova's pressure for the whole game just to give him the experience. What if it results in Duane having 10 TOs at half and MU being down 40-9 at home. Is that going to teach Duane anything? Is that going to make him a better PG next year? What about playing Sandy and JJ the whole game while Carlino and Derrick get spot minutes. We've seen these guys play together with little leadership on the floor and its not pretty. They will get crushed by Nova and maybe even STJ and DePaul, and they will likely get boo-ed. It serves very little purpose. I know about half the board hates Buzz but one thing Buzz said that I truly believe was that it doesn't help a guy succeed in the future to be thrown into the fire before he is ready and then to be embarrassed and have his confidence torn down.
Finish the season with the best team we can field. We have so few players that everyone will get sufficient playing time. Try to win all the games. The young guys will get much more valuable being in a close game where if we got lucky they might have a chance to win then they will playing in a blow out.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2015, 01:26:46 PM
It won't make much difference this season, and it won't make much difference next season. But if he doesn't choose option #3, it sends a message that we aren't always going to do everything we think we need to do to win every game. Not a good signal for a first-year coach to send.
Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2015, 12:54:00 PM
If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others. It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not). It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be. It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season.
Duane getting 6 games of PG experience could have positive value. Or he is not ready to play the position for that many minutes and it could have adverse impact. The problem is you don't allow for the latter possibility.
There are 6 games left. Take a deep breath and just start letting it go. You'll do yourself and this board a whole lot of good.
Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun to not try something else, and they are getting lamer and lamer.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,
No more ridiculous than changing just to say we changed.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,
I'm guessing the coaching staff would be more apt to try something different if (insert back-up player) was killing (insert starter) in practice.
Truthfully, we see about 1/10 of what the coaches do.
If Duane, Steve or Dawson or Burton or the walk-ons want more minutes... I don't think it's tough to figure out HOW to get them. Kick the starter's ass up and down the court in practice everyday.
Can't do that?
Well, then the current starter is going to get the lion's share of the minutes.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 03:52:50 PM
Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun to not try something else, and they are getting lamer and lamer.
The more you post the less you give the impression you know anything about basketball, which is impressive considering you have over 5,300 posts.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 17, 2015, 04:51:54 PM
The more you post the less you give the impression you know anything about basketball, which is impressive considering you have over 5,300 posts.
And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 06:47:33 PM
And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.
To be fair, it took you less than 100 posts to show you know nothing, either. You've just been around longer.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2015, 01:20:58 PM
Where would he sit when he isn't playing? "Benching" a guy doesn't have to mean 0 mpg.
But since you asked what I fear: I fear Wojo sending the message that he has quit on the season, which sends the wrong message to players. I get that the season is done, you get that the season is done - even Wojo gets that the season is done. But the last thing he needs to do now is take an action that sends that message to current (and potential future) players.
How about this message: Mediocrity and actually less than even mediocre won't be tolerated and rewarded with max minute playing time. If you aren't producing on the floor, you aren't going to continue getting max minutes of playing time.
If your play on the floor is not contributing to helping the team win, and the team is NOT winning, you no longer get the benefit of the doubt as the vet.
It is just as dangerous and as big of disservice to the underclassmen largely nailed to the bench behind wildly and perhaps even historically ineffective veterans.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 06:47:33 PM
And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.
The problem is your comprehension needs some work as you clearly didn't understand the point I was making. But we can leave it at that and think each other are idiots instead of going back and forth.
Am I the only one who cringes when I see the title of this thread?
Ok, I'll give you this. Derrick should not play 35 minutes per game.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 17, 2015, 01:20:58 PM
Where would he sit when he isn't playing? "Benching" a guy doesn't have to mean 0 mpg.
But since you asked what I fear: I fear Wojo sending the message that he has quit on the season, which sends the wrong message to players. I get that the season is done, you get that the season is done - even Wojo gets that the season is done. But the last thing he needs to do now is take an action that sends that message to current (and potential future) players.
Lame, lame. Grasping at straws for a weak excuse. He cannot explain it to the team? Are they not bright young people. And it can be explained that nobody has given up. Just lame.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 18, 2015, 09:04:40 AM
The problem is your comprehension needs some work as you clearly didn't understand the point I was making. But we can leave it at that and think each other are idiots instead of going back and forth.
Sorry, I never called you an idiot. Maybe somebody that just does not have an open mind about changing things up might apply. Not sure.
Willie - serious question - what percent of the blame for this season's performance do you put on Wojo vs. Buzz?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 18, 2015, 09:56:10 AM
Sorry, I never called you an idiot. Maybe somebody that just does not have an open mind about changing things up might apply. Not sure.
I have an open mind about changing things up and I have no problem if Wojo does. All I was stating was reasons why it likely wouldn't happen, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't. The problem is when someone complete dismisses valid reasons of why a change might not happen or might not be for the best.
Again, I'm pretty sure Wojo would gladly play Derrick Wilson ZERO minutes if he had Magic Johnson on this team.
Unfortunately, he doesn't.
If any of the bench players want more minutes, then be better at basketball... be better in practice, watch more film, shoot more, practice more, perform in games.
This is a culture Wojo is creating. He's not going to crash land it just so he can try something new. The guys who work hardest in practice, the guys who are prepared, the guys who do extra work, the guys who perform are going to get the minutes.
This really isn't that hard.
Wojo doesn't hand out PT. Guys EARN PT.
Scholarships aren't given, they are earned.
Don't want to work hard everyday in practice? You're going to sit on the bench.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on February 18, 2015, 09:22:14 AM
Am I the only one who cringes when I see the title of this thread?
Ok, I'll give you this. Derrick should not play 35 minutes per game.
No...I've been tempted to change the title many times, but I feel like it would be an abuse of my power. (Though, I have frequently changed titles to make them more descriptive....I guess I could count it as that :) )
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 18, 2015, 10:23:49 AM
Again, I'm pretty sure Wojo would gladly play Derrick Wilson ZERO minutes if he had Magic Johnson on this team.
Unfortunately, he doesn't.
If any of the bench players want more minutes, then be better at basketball... be better in practice, watch more film, shoot more, practice more, perform in games.
This is a culture Wojo is creating. He's not going to crash land it just so he can try something new. The guys who work hardest in practice, the guys who are prepared, the guys who do extra work, the guys who perform are going to get the minutes.
This really isn't that hard.
Wojo doesn't hand out PT. Guys EARN PT.
Scholarships aren't given, they are earned.
Don't want to work hard everyday in practice? You're going to sit on the bench.
It would be nice if all of this shooting and practicing hard actually translated to games.
And btw - Can you give us a break down of minutes of film study per player on the current roster as well as "extra work"? Didn't know such stats were posted anywhere?
I know the whole narrative of players "earning time" needs to be perpetuated - but at what point does on court performance matter or trump all of these apparent behind the scenes intangibles?
If the culture Wojo is creating is that your on-court/game performance doesn't matter due to the fact you "practice hard, do extra work, watch more film, shoot more, etc" that is not a winning formula.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 18, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
No...I've been tempted to change the title many times, but I feel like it would be an abuse of my power. (Though, I have frequently changed titles to make them more descriptive....I guess I could count it as that :) )
can you just change it to "tin foil hat club?"
Quote from: JakeBarnes on February 18, 2015, 10:36:57 AM
can you just change it to "tin foil hat club?"
The only guys who were in the tin foil club were:
A) Those who didn't feel things were getting shaky when Larry Williams and Buzz were at odds.
B) Didn't sense that Buzz was a lost cause last year
C) Feel that MU has a history of basketball success and if Buzz bailed, we'd find a qualified and capable replacement and that the program is far bigger than the coach.
D) Now we have that new qualified and capable coach and he's shepherded us to last place in the Big East and our worst season since Bob Dukiet. Meanwhile the program has 4 open scholarships and 4 and 5 star recruits aren't exactly abounding the recruiting landscape at this time of year.
E) - Hey, no worries - In Wojo I trust, and Wojo's Way baby. #wineveryday.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 10:36:54 AM
It would be nice if all of this shooting and practicing hard actually translated to games.
And btw - Can you give us a break down of minutes of film study per player on the current roster as well as "extra work"? Didn't know such stats were posted anywhere?
I know the whole narrative of players "earning time" needs to be perpetuated - but at what point does on court performance matter or trump all of these apparent behind the scenes intangibles?
If the culture Wojo is creating is that your on-court/game performance doesn't matter due to the fact you "practice hard, do extra work, watch more film, shoot more, etc" that is not a winning formula.
Totally fair.
Let's all agree that we have no idea what happens in practice, so we don't have enough data to determine who should or shouldn't be playing.
Good?
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 18, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
Totally fair.
Let's all agree that we have no idea what happens in practice, so we don't have enough data to determine who should or shouldn't be playing.
Good?
Show me a coach that ignores how a player practices and plays him anyway, I'll show you a coach who won't succeed in the long run.
Bill Self has a consensus five * in Kelly Oubre who didn't practice well early in the season at Kansas. Once he started to show the effort and desire, he started playing.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 18, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
Totally fair.
Let's all agree that we have no idea what happens in practice, so we don't have enough data to determine who should or shouldn't be playing.
Good?
Sure - All we have is the game data to go off and draw our conclusions from - which has been my point all along: The production of a couple of players in games absolutely and totally can be called into question, and is NOT indicative of earning minutes through their on court play.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 18, 2015, 11:26:38 AM
Show me a coach that ignores how a player practices and plays him anyway, I'll show you a coach who won't succeed in the long run.
Bill Self has a consensus five * in Kelly Oubre who didn't practice well early in the season at Kansas. Once he started to show the effort and desire, he started playing.
Larry Brown?
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 11:28:21 AM
Larry Brown?
Learned under Dean Smith and he was the one that called out Iverson for his practice habits that lead to the famous rant
Quote from: MuMark on February 18, 2015, 11:52:02 AM
Russ Wood @RussHoops 15h15 hours ago
2015 Pines Charter (FL) SG Haanif Cheatham (@H22_Cheatham) had 29 pts, 10 rebs, 4 asts & 3stls in a 6A Regional Semifinal win ovr South Fork
Nice find. That's awesome. A stat stuffer. But looks like he is far too much of a scorer to be a candidate for PG position...as some would have us believe.
::)
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 18, 2015, 11:34:34 AM
Learned under Dean Smith and he was the one that called out Iverson for his practice habits that lead to the famous rant
Still played A.I. max minutes.
Saying he can't play point because of these stats? Have you seen top tier guards play high school basketball? They are normally tasked with most of the teams scoring...if he isn't playing point there he could still play it in college. He is probably their best guy and they use him accordingly.
Quote from: Shark on February 18, 2015, 12:06:30 PM
Saying he can't play point because of these stats? Have you seen top tier guards play high school basketball? They are normally tasked with most of the teams scoring...if he isn't playing point there he could still play it in college. He is probably their best guy and they use him accordingly.
Shark - It was sarcasm - Figured it didn't need to go in teal, and that the rolling eye emoji would be enough to communicate as such.
I find it laughable when I read here that a guy like Duane couldn't be a PG because he's a scorer/looks to score too much...
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 12:08:42 PM
Shark - It was sarcasm - Figured it didn't need to go in teal, and that the rolling eye emoji would be enough to communicate as such.
I find it laughable when I read here that a guy like Duane couldn't be a PG because he's a scorer/looks to score too much...
Duane might not be a successful PG not because he looks to score too much, but because he's not a very good passer at all at this point.
As far as Cheatham, real excited to get him in next year. Should be a very good player here. Maybe not right off the bat, but definitely excited for his future.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 18, 2015, 09:54:42 AM
Lame, lame. Grasping at straws for a weak excuse. He cannot explain it to the team? Are they not bright young people. And it can be explained that nobody has given up. Just lame.
So no answer - just calling everything you disagree with "lame" or "ridiculous"? Guess that's the best you'll ever have on this issue.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 18, 2015, 12:10:30 PM
Duane might not be a successful PG not because he looks to score too much, but because he's not a very good passer at all at this point.
As far as Cheatham, real excited to get him in next year. Should be a very good player here. Maybe not right off the bat, but definitely excited for his future.
I've seen Duane drive and dish for nice looks many times. Part of the challenge for Duane is that on some of his drives his kick out option is to Derrick. We are better off with Duane shooting that shot. It is challenging for Duane to get an assist while playing with Derrick as Derrick basically doesn't shoot perimeter shots. So, Duane is down to 3 players he can rack up an assist with while on the floor. I suspect with better weapons around him, Duane would get more assists.
But, yes, I agree with you on Cheatham - appears to have a really well rounded game. Biggest challenge will be adding strength. He needs a lot of it, much like Sandy, and JJJ and Duane. Problem is none of those guys have very good frames for being able to add much - all so lanky (other than Duane.)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 18, 2015, 10:31:30 AM
No...I've been tempted to change the title many times, but I feel like it would be an abuse of my power. (Though, I have frequently changed titles to make them more descriptive....I guess I could count it as that :) )
That would send a poor message to the new scooper who started the post :)
Incidentally, all you long time posters have a real love/hate Ners thing - it's a bit creepy actually? I also think he's just a tad bit obstinate but on DW (and more accurately Wojo's decision to keep play DW at high minutes all season long) he's right. You can't play the counter-factual but a number of our close losses have come down to the fact that we haven't been able to put the ball in the hoop in the last 5 minutes (or OT). Yes, I know Wojo has done some subbing O for D with DW in late game situations but 1) you shouldn't have to do that with a starting point guard (this isn't Ox and Otule) and 2) as any balla knows subbing off and on seriously messes with your game flow.
This was a team that should have gone to the NIT. A large part of the reason they aren't is that the best 5 players have not maximized their time on the court. That's on Wojo. I like Wojo, I think he could be exactly what the program needs after the great Tanned One and the Cowboy, but he's clearly making some rookie mistakes - one's that hopefully he'll overcome once he gets to put and entire team of "his guys" on the floor. So I don't think MUBB is doomed forever and ever, but I do think Wojo under-performed with this year's team and that's a bit concerning.
Hey, we almost got 1 whole reply in before this thread went off topic! Yippee!
Quote from: wadesworld on February 18, 2015, 12:59:00 PM
Hey, we almost got 1 whole reply in before this thread went off topic! Yippee!
Every thread is turned into a Derrick thread by one doofus.
Quote from: 1SE on February 18, 2015, 12:34:10 PM
That would send a poor message to the new scooper who started the post :)
Incidentally, all you long time posters have a real love/hate Ners thing - it's a bit creepy actually? I also think he's just a tad bit obstinate but on DW (and more accurately Wojo's decision to keep play DW at high minutes all season long) he's right. You can't play the counter-factual but a number of our close losses have come down to the fact that we haven't been able to put the ball in the hoop in the last 5 minutes (or OT). Yes, I know Wojo has done some subbing O for D with DW in late game situations but 1) you shouldn't have to do that with a starting point guard (this isn't Ox and Otule) and 2) as any balla knows subbing off and on seriously messes with your game flow.
This was a team that should have gone to the NIT. A large part of the reason they aren't is that the best 5 players have not maximized their time on the court. That's on Wojo. I like Wojo, I think he could be exactly what the program needs after the great Tanned One and the Cowboy, but he's clearly making some rookie mistakes - one's that hopefully he'll overcome once he gets to put and entire team of "his guys" on the floor. So I don't think MUBB is doomed forever and ever, but I do think Wojo under-performed with this year's team and that's a bit concerning.
You better be careful--Blue Man Guy will tell you that you know nothing about BB with these ideas. And others will tell you that since you only have a couple posts you are a troller--or worse yet--you are Ners with a new post name. Now you need to subscribe to the dozen posters adamant philosophy that Derrick should be playing 35 minutes because (Multiple guess):
~~~He is the best option (not withstanding the performance)
~~~Carlino and Duane cannot play PG
~~~The staff is full of PG's and they know best
~~~Derrick is a leader
~~~We must not try anything else for fear of sending the message that we have given up, or some paranoid other world fear that this will send some strange adverse message to potential recruits
~~~We might lose more games (as if we already have not lost enough)
~~~Derrick has significantly improved his 3point FG% to .235 this year
~~~He is one of our best players
~~~And an unstated one but cannot be ignored--we really don't need to find out if anybody else can run the point (because it may show something that doesn't fit my narrative)
Now go away, those dozen posters do not want to hear your silly ideas.
Quote from: tower912 on February 17, 2015, 06:49:25 PM
To be fair, it took you less than 100 posts to show you know nothing, either. You've just been around longer.
Yes I have, and to be fair, your 8000 posts demonstrates the same.
Willie, WTF do you think goes on in practice? Honest question.
Do you really think the coaching staff doesn't know who the best option for PG is by now and that they need to put Duane there in a game to see how he would do?
I think they already know how he would do, and that's why he doesn't play there, but that's just me.
What do you think?
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 18, 2015, 01:05:56 PM
Every thread is turned into a Derrick thread by one doofus.
At this point I honestly feel like it's a robot that has some sort of autopost to every single post in MUScoop. "BUT DERRICK! BUT POINTS! BUT RECRUIT RANKING! BUT STEALS! BUT WOJO DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE KIDS!" It's the only possible explanation I can come up with for a reply to every possible post on here.
At any rate, glad Cheatham is coming and I think he could be a real gem. Really excited to see what he does at MU.
Sorry to interrupt the Cheatam thread, please return to talking about how Derrick can't score, wasn't highly ranked, and takes minutes from our power forwards.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 18, 2015, 01:17:34 PM
At this point I honestly feel like it's a robot that has some sort of autopost to every single post in MUScoop. "BUT DERRICK! BUT POINTS! BUT RECRUIT RANKING! BUT STEALS! BUT WOJO DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE KIDS!" It's the only possible explanation I can come up with for a reply to every possible post on here.
At any rate, glad Cheatham is coming and I think he could be a real gem. Really excited to see what he does at MU.
Sorry to interrupt the Cheatam thread, please return to talking about how Derrick can't score, wasn't highly ranked, and takes minutes from our power forwards.
Good stuff.
Now, about Derrick ...
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 18, 2015, 12:10:30 PM
Duane might not be a successful PG not because he looks to score too much, but because he's not a very good passer at all at this point.
Based on what? To say that is ridiculous. You want him to dribble in place and pass it to the wing like Derrick? Pretty sure he can do that. You think Wojo tells Duane to be a distributor? He's 1 of 2 players on the team that can score the ball from the perimeter. I've seen him drop some beautiful passes off the drive this year. However, Marquette won't have a 2G next year either, and Duane can play both.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 18, 2015, 01:30:46 PM
Based on what? To say that is ridiculous. You want him to dribble in place and pass it to the wing like Derrick? Pretty sure he can do that. You think Wojo tells Duane to be a distributor? He's 1 of 2 players on the team that can score the ball from the perimeter. I've seen him drop some beautiful passes off the drive this year. However, Marquette won't have a 2G next year either, and Duane can play both.
He also tries to force passes every game that end up in turnovers. I didn't say anything about Derrick, not sure why that's relevant.
I think Duane is going to end up being great here, and he's my favorite player on the team. But he's not a good passer right now. Could he develop into one? Absolutely. In fact, I would bet on it. But he's not there yet.
I agree with 1SE, Ners and Willie.
I don't like it, but we don't have any money for a new deck chair so leave it where it is.
No. we have to move that one three inches to the left.
Really, won't that clash with the sofa?
But if we leave it there it won't go with the new table!
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 18, 2015, 01:17:19 PM
Willie, WTF do you think goes on in practice? Honest question.
Do you really think the coaching staff doesn't know who the best option for PG is by now and that they need to put Duane there in a game to see how he would do?
I think they already know how he would do, and that's why he doesn't play there, but that's just me.
What do you think?
I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and suggest Derrick and Duane have been playing TOGETHER in practice all year long. Coaches rarely mix up combinations in practice as to not practice a starting five together primarily. Now, as thin as we are, I'd be shocked if there has been much of any practice time where Duane and Derrick weren't playing together.
Wojo came on board singing Derrick's praise. According to the great John Dodds - Derrick is Wojo's favorite player (as if that needed to be said.) So, I'm going to hypothesize that for the most part all season long, and especially since we've become 8-strong, Wojo hasn't spent much of practice time running Duane opposite Derrick, and playing Duane with the other starters and pairing Derrick with the 2 primary reserves.
What is probably a fair statement is that Wojo prefers Duane off the ball, and figures he's more of an asset/weapon in the 2 position. He may be right about that thought, yet where I believe he is wrong is in not properly assessing how devastating it is to the teams chances at success having such a limited PG. In my view, playing Duane out of position (perhaps) would still be a better allocation of resources, versus playing a severely overmatched player at the most important position (PG).
Obsessive compulsive disorder is a disease.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 01:48:16 PM
I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and suggest Derrick and Duane have been playing TOGETHER in practice all year long. Coaches rarely mix up combinations in practice as to not practice a starting five together primarily. Now, as thin as we are, I'd be shocked if there has been much of any practice time where Duane and Derrick weren't playing together.
Wojo came on board singing Derrick's praise. According to the great John Dodds - Derrick is Wojo's favorite player (as if that needed to be said.) So, I'm going to hypothesize that for the most part all season long, and especially since we've become 8-strong, Wojo hasn't spent much of practice time running Duane opposite Derrick, and playing Duane with the other starters and pairing Derrick with the 2 primary reserves.
What is probably a fair statement is that Wojo prefers Duane off the ball, and figures he's more of an asset/weapon in the 2 position. He may be right about that thought, yet where I believe he is wrong is in not properly assessing how devastating it is to the teams chances at success having such a limited PG. In my view, playing Duane out of position (perhaps) would still be a better allocation of resources, versus playing a severely overmatched player at the most important position (PG).
Thanks for the response Willie.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 18, 2015, 01:34:19 PM
He also tries to force passes every game that end up in turnovers. I didn't say anything about Derrick, not sure why that's relevant.
I think Duane is going to end up being great here, and he's my favorite player on the team. But he's not a good passer right now. Could he develop into one? Absolutely. In fact, I would bet on it. But he's not there yet.
Rather than worrying about his passing I would prefer Duane to work on finishing his layups.
Is point guard really the most critical position Ners?
With the exception of UConn's two recent NCAA championships in which Walker, Napier and Boatwright dominated with their guard play (and even then they had quality bigs), most of the teams that end up having success from the Sweet 16 on are usually teams that have depth and size that end up being the difference. When you can rotate 3-4 guys 6'9" or taller keeping them fresh that size usually ends up dominating the glass and paint.
I'm not saying guard play isn't important (it is), I'm just saying that ASSUMING a team has quality guards it's typically the height/length of the 3-5 positions that becomes the difference as teams progress in late March.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 18, 2015, 01:34:19 PM
He also tries to force passes every game that end up in turnovers. I didn't say anything about Derrick, not sure why that's relevant.
I think Duane is going to end up being great here, and he's my favorite player on the team. But he's not a good passer right now. Could he develop into one? Absolutely. In fact, I would bet on it. But he's not there yet.
Duane's assist rate is 16.2%. Currently, Duane ranks as the 4th best assist person on the team, behind De. Wilson, Carlino, and JJJ. He has the 22nd highest assist rate in the BE, and third best for freshmen in the BE.
Duane's turnover rate is 15.9%. He has the second best turnover rate on the team, behind Steve Taylor. His turnover rate is #28 in the conference. It's the sixth best TO rate for freshmen.
Looking at those numbers, Duane is certainly not a bad passer, nor is he a great passer. But I think he's a good passer, especially for a frosh.
With Duane, we at least have hope for next year at the one. I wouldn't want to bank on him, and hope we can land another point, but Duane can help out or play it if necessary. I bet he gets some time at the one next year. He needs a little strength and size, especially if he is going to try to bring the ball up against pressure.
Cheatham also may need some size added, but I believe I heard Wojo say he can play the point. So that maybe another option, maybe not the starter, but an option.
Land a good point, and these two can help to fill in and provide back up. They may not be perfect, but we are far from perfect at one as it is now, of course.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 18, 2015, 02:09:04 PM
Is point guard really the most critical position Ners?
With the exception of UConn's two recent NCAA championships in which Walker, Napier and Boatwright dominated with their guard play (and even then they had quality bigs), most of the teams that end up having success from the Sweet 16 on are usually teams that have depth and size that end up being the difference. When you can rotate 3-4 guys 6'9" or taller keeping them fresh that size usually ends up dominating the glass and paint.
I'm not saying guard play isn't important (it is), I'm just saying that ASSUMING a team has quality guards it's typically the height/length of the 3-5 positions that becomes the difference as teams progress in late March.
I certainly don't think you can be a team like even the Big Three + Lazar, and Dwight Burke and advance to a Final Four - so your point is a good one.
However, I will say that I think it is a huge anomaly for a team to have a poor/marginal PG and be a contender. Virginia this year may be an example of that anomaly - yet I still doubt Virginia will make the Final Four.
Have to have a good crop of guards to be successful, you could have a marginal PG, with an elite caliber 2 guard - such as Miami Heat with Chalmers primarily running their point in the championship years. Still believe most championship caliber teams have REALLY good PGs, and that generally there is a correlation between having a REALLY good PG and a winning record.
Look at what happened to us last year - we had Davante and a 6th year Otule - probably our best big man pairing in the last 30+ years - and we miss the NIT??
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 02:23:07 PM
I certainly don't think you can be a team like even the Big Three + Lazar, and Dwight Burke and advance to a Final Four - so your point is a good one.
However, I will say that I think it is a huge anomaly for a team to have a poor/marginal PG and be a contender. Virginia this year may be an example of that anomaly - yet I still doubt Virginia will make the Final Four.
Have to have a good crop of guards to be successful, you could have a marginal PG, with an elite caliber 2 guard - such as Miami Heat with Chalmers primarily running their point in the championship years. Still believe most championship caliber teams have REALLY good PGs, and that generally there is a correlation between having a REALLY good PG and a winning record.
Look at what happened to us last year - we had Davante and a 6th year Otule - probably our best big man pairing in the last 30+ years - and we miss the NIT??
Agree for the most part, but this isn't the NBA where you have the best athletes that play the game.
Look at college basketball the same way you look at the philosophy of the 3-4 in the NFL. It's easier to find capable linebackers than dominant defensive lineman. Same thing applies in college basketball as it's easier to find capable guards/wings than it is to find big men. Let's face it, finding abnormally tall college age males who are coordinated and athletic enough to play basketball is a tough challenge. When you factor in that this very small selected group of bigs is being recruited more heavily and the vast majority will have their pick of blue bloods offering scholarships it's very difficult for most schools including Marquette to regularly get in the recruiting wars.
I think Marquette is in the position of having to have excellent guard play to consistenly be a tournament team that makes it out of the first weekend. I don't think we have the clout to reload on top shelf big men who leave for the NBA after one or two seasons.
I'd also prefer more athletic bigs who maybe give up a bit of sheer measurable size like Ochefu and Obekpa as their ability to run the floor greater compliments a guard centric program than a pure post player like Stainbrook or Fischer. UConn, Nova and Louisville are the blueprint of how to compete first in the Big East with it's physical play and second nationally.
We'll never be a Duke or Kansas when it comes to being able to role out 4 quality big men a season, but we've had success VERY recently with strong, physical guards and wings.
Ners-
In response to your comment about missing the NIT last season despite our front court, I'd argue that it had more to do with Jake Thomas than it did Derrick Wilson. Jake didn't use screens well at all, had zero ability to create a shot off the dribble, and was best suited for a role on a team where he could get 7-15 minutes a game as a sharp shooter in short spurts.
Had we had a Carlino instead of Thomas last year's team makes a pretty deep run IMO. If we would've played Derrick and Mayo paired with our front court of Gardner, Jamil, Otule, Burton, Anderson we would have been a much better team as well IMO.
Derrick - Dawson
Mayo - Thomas/JJJ
Jamil - Burton
Anderson/Taylor
Gardner/Otule
Had that been Buzz's basic depth chart I think we would've been dancing.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 18, 2015, 10:01:32 AM
Willie - serious question - what percent of the blame for this season's performance do you put on Wojo vs. Buzz?
Hard to put a number on something like that, but say 75% Buzz and 25% Wojo. Wojo inherited most of this team, and cannot be blamed for that. He lost some people and incoming recruits, some of that might be attributed to Wojo. Most of the 25% I would put down to Wojo for late game coaching, not going to man D more often and rotation decisions.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 18, 2015, 01:17:19 PM
Willie, WTF do you think goes on in practice? Honest question.
Do you really think the coaching staff doesn't know who the best option for PG is by now and that they need to put Duane there in a game to see how he would do?
I think they already know how he would do, and that's why he doesn't play there, but that's just me.
What do you think?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 18, 2015, 12:11:34 PM
So no answer - just calling everything you disagree with "lame" or "ridiculous"? Guess that's the best you'll ever have on this issue.
I have had plenty on this issue. Yours have been weak!
Quote from: Chip Chipman on February 18, 2015, 01:34:35 PM
I agree with 1SE, Ners and Willie.
Probably all the same person--including Chip Chipman. There goes the conspiracy theory.
8 consecutive messages ignored. This is fun.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 11:27:44 AM
Sure - All we have is the game data to go off and draw our conclusions from - which has been my point all along: The production of a couple of players in games absolutely and totally can be called into question, and is NOT indicative of earning minutes through their on court play.
Derrick doesn't play well enough to games to get the minutes he's getting.
But, can we all just admit that we are missing all of the other variables, so MAYBE, there is a reason for the current rotation?
We're not at practice. We don't see these kids. They spend HUNDREDS of hours per year practicing with the coaches. We see them for about 60 hours per year. We don't know what we don't know.
Wojo might be completely batshit crazy and an awful coach. But, maybe, for now, let's just admit that we don't have all of the data to evaluate his rotations.
Sound fair?
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 18, 2015, 04:53:51 PM
Derrick doesn't play well enough to games to get the minutes he's getting.
But, can we all just admit that we are missing all of the other variables, so MAYBE, there is a reason for the current rotation?
We're not at practice. We don't see these kids. They spend HUNDREDS of hours per year practicing with the coaches. We see them for about 60 hours per year. We don't know what we don't know.
Wojo might be completely batcrap crazy and an awful coach. But, maybe, for now, let's just admit that we don't have all of the data to evaluate his rotations.
Sound fair?
First, I don't think Wojo is batcrap crazy or an awful coach - as I feel he has a pretty good handle on X's and O's. I feel where he needs improvement is on the personnel management side of things/understanding the personal element of managing different personality types on a basketball team.
Of course none of us see practice so we don't have that data, so we can't use that to factor into how we evaluate his rotations - we base everything we see off of the games.
I mentioned it in a previous post - Wojo may very well simply just prefer to have Duane (and Matt) playing off the ball primarily, and to play one of them at PG limits that action somewhat. And that's what explains his rotations. My take is that though he may prefer Duane at the 2, and think he is better at the 2 - the deficit we have at the 1 is so great - that the team would overall be improved playing Duane slightly out of his best position. Of course no way to ever know this, much like last year with Dawson, unless our coach actually tries it for a game or two.
Quote from: 1SE on February 18, 2015, 12:34:10 PM
That would send a poor message to the new scooper who started the post :)
Incidentally, all you long time posters have a real love/hate Ners thing - it's a bit creepy actually? I also think he's just a tad bit obstinate but on DW (and more accurately Wojo's decision to keep play DW at high minutes all season long) he's right. You can't play the counter-factual but a number of our close losses have come down to the fact that we haven't been able to put the ball in the hoop in the last 5 minutes (or OT). Yes, I know Wojo has done some subbing O for D with DW in late game situations but 1) you shouldn't have to do that with a starting point guard (this isn't Ox and Otule) and 2) as any balla knows subbing off and on seriously messes with your game flow.
This was a team that should have gone to the NIT. A large part of the reason they aren't is that the best 5 players have not maximized their time on the court. That's on Wojo. I like Wojo, I think he could be exactly what the program needs after the great Tanned One and the Cowboy, but he's clearly making some rookie mistakes - one's that hopefully he'll overcome once he gets to put and entire team of "his guys" on the floor. So I don't think MUBB is doomed forever and ever, but I do think Wojo under-performed with this year's team and that's a bit concerning.
Excellent post . I completely agree with your analysis.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 18, 2015, 02:49:17 PM
Agree for the most part, but this isn't the NBA where you have the best athletes that play the game.
Look at college basketball the same way you look at the philosophy of the 3-4 in the NFL. It's easier to find capable linebackers than dominant defensive lineman. Same thing applies in college basketball as it's easier to find capable guards/wings than it is to find big men. Let's face it, finding abnormally tall college age males who are coordinated and athletic enough to play basketball is a tough challenge. When you factor in that this very small selected group of bigs is being recruited more heavily and the vast majority will have their pick of blue bloods offering scholarships it's very difficult for most schools including Marquette to regularly get in the recruiting wars.
I think Marquette is in the position of having to have excellent guard play to consistenly be a tournament team that makes it out of the first weekend. I don't think we have the clout to reload on top shelf big men who leave for the NBA after one or two seasons.
I'd also prefer more athletic bigs who maybe give up a bit of sheer measurable size like Ochefu and Obekpa as their ability to run the floor greater compliments a guard centric program than a pure post player like Stainbrook or Fischer. UConn, Nova and Louisville are the blueprint of how to compete first in the Big East with it's physical play and second nationally.
We'll never be a Duke or Kansas when it comes to being able to role out 4 quality big men a season, but we've had success VERY recently with strong, physical guards and wings.
Agree with your entire post.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 18, 2015, 03:11:21 PM
Ners-
In response to your comment about missing the NIT last season despite our front court, I'd argue that it had more to do with Jake Thomas than it did Derrick Wilson. Jake didn't use screens well at all, had zero ability to create a shot off the dribble, and was best suited for a role on a team where he could get 7-15 minutes a game as a sharp shooter in short spurts.
Had we had a Carlino instead of Thomas last year's team makes a pretty deep run IMO. If we would've played Derrick and Mayo paired with our front court of Gardner, Jamil, Otule, Burton, Anderson we would have been a much better team as well IMO.
Derrick - Dawson
Mayo - Thomas/JJJ
Jamil - Burton
Anderson/Taylor
Gardner/Otule
Had that been Buzz's basic depth chart I think we would've been dancing.
Believe it or not, I could go along with the bolded - we likely could have made the NCAA in spite of Derrick, if Buzz maxed Mayo's minutes at the 2.
What is sad, is that the above lineup/depth chart you mention was available to Buzz, yet inexplicably he refused to help Jamil/Davante by playing Derrick with a much more talented 2 guard. The combination of Derrick and Jake for max minutes was the FATAL mistake, and that did not have to occur.
I actually would have liked to see what this lineup could have done:
Mayo
Jake
Burton
Jamil
Gardner
I know many don't feel Todd was capable of being a PG because he liked to shoot, and was a scorer, yet Todd had an acceptable Assist Rate. You keep Jake on the floor as he was solid defensively, AND he was a good floor spacer to help create space for Davante - which would have created good looks for Davante and Jake.
Ahh...what could have been..
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 05:36:07 PM
First, I don't think Wojo is batcrap crazy or an awful coach - as I feel he has a pretty good handle on X's and O's. I feel where he needs improvement is on the personnel management side of things/understanding the personal element of managing different personality types on a basketball team.
Of course none of us see practice so we don't have that data, so we can't use that to factor into how we evaluate his rotations - we base everything we see off of the games.
I mentioned it in a previous post - Wojo may very well simply just prefer to have Duane (and Matt) playing off the ball primarily, and to play one of them at PG limits that action somewhat. And that's what explains his rotations. My take is that though he may prefer Duane at the 2, and think he is better at the 2 - the deficit we have at the 1 is so great - that the team would overall be improved playing Duane slightly out of his best position. Of course no way to ever know this, much like last year with Dawson, unless our coach actually tries it for a game or two.
If you want to critique Wojo's rotations, I think that's fair. Believe it or not, what you say here makes a lot of sense.
I just think we get a little whacky when we start talking about Wojo's personnel skills, and "mind games" and "thrown under the bus" etc. etc.
It's not needed. We don't need to twist ourselves into knots on these topics and then "LOL" at anybody who disagrees, or name call, or any of the other nonsense that occurs.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 05:36:07 PM
First, I don't think Wojo is batcrap crazy or an awful coach - as I feel he has a pretty good handle on X's and O's. I feel where he needs improvement is on the personnel management side of things/understanding the personal element of managing different personality types on a basketball team.
Of course none of us see practice so we don't have that data, so we can't use that to factor into how we evaluate his rotations - we base everything we see off of the games.
I mentioned it in a previous post - Wojo may very well simply just prefer to have Duane (and Matt) playing off the ball primarily, and to play one of them at PG limits that action somewhat. And that's what explains his rotations. My take is that though he may prefer Duane at the 2, and think he is better at the 2 - the deficit we have at the 1 is so great - that the team would overall be improved playing Duane slightly out of his best position. Of course no way to ever know this, much like last year with Dawson, unless our coach actually tries it for a game or two.
So, if we work on the statements that Burton and Dawson left because they were upset about their playing time or role on the team this year... Why do you believe that Wojo has problems understanding the personal element of managing different personality types? What is the evidence for that? I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't think I've seen/heard anything that would point to that being a problem.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 18, 2015, 06:49:07 PM
So, if we work on the statements that Burton and Dawson left because they were upset about their playing time or role on the team this year... Why do you believe that Wojo has problems understanding the personal element of managing different personality types? What is the evidence for that? I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't think I've seen/heard anything that would point to that being a problem.
I also made the comment about personnel management - which speaks to allocation of available personnel/resources. This is where I feel Wojo has a lot of room for improvement. At the outset of the season he did have two more bodies - Burton and Dawson - and he lost their buy in/belief, based on how they were used or more accurately, not used. Additionally, Wojo could have mixed and matched players differently this season - my opinion is that he didn't mix and match in a way that maximized our chance to win. Again, that is just my opinion. Wojo had his. But, our record reflects that I'm by no means crazy or way off base in my opinion, given that this team did/does have a good deal of talent.
Wojo is a fire and brimstone guy, don't think anybody denies that. Burton, Dawson and JJJ are all more laid back guys - and not of that fire and brimstone ilk. Doesn't mean they don't care, doesn't mean they aren't playing/practicing hard - they just have a different external demeanor and persona. Yet sometimes coaches of the fire and brimstone variety can get caught up in "passion" and subconsciously value that above even performance.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 18, 2015, 03:11:21 PM
Ners-
In response to your comment about missing the NIT last season despite our front court, I'd argue that it had more to do with Jake Thomas than it did Derrick Wilson. Jake didn't use screens well at all, had zero ability to create a shot off the dribble, and was best suited for a role on a team where he could get 7-15 minutes a game as a sharp shooter in short spurts.
Had we had a Carlino instead of Thomas last year's team makes a pretty deep run IMO. If we would've played Derrick and Mayo paired with our front court of Gardner, Jamil, Otule, Burton, Anderson we would have been a much better team as well IMO.
Derrick - Dawson
Mayo - Thomas/JJJ
Jamil - Burton
Anderson/Taylor
Gardner/Otule
Had that been Buzz's basic depth chart I think we would've been dancing.
Agreed. I tried to make the point about Jake being the real problem several times last year, but many posters were too busy running over Derrick to pay attention.
I also agree that Davante and Chris should have split time at the 5 - like they did the year we got to the Elite 8 - instead of acting as though Davante was a 4.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 18, 2015, 03:33:26 PM
I have had plenty on this issue. Yours have been weak!
You've spent most of your time (as usual) just ripping others' posts.
Explain why you said the players are smart, but don't think they'd be smart enough to see right through it if Wojo gave up on the season, but then tried to tell them that he wasn't giving up on the season.
The players are smart - which is exactly why he couldn't "explain away" throwing in the towel.
Give me some substance willie.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 18, 2015, 07:15:25 PM
You've spent most of your time (as usual) just ripping others' posts.
Explain why you said the players are smart, but don't think they'd be smart enough to see right through it if Wojo gave up on the season, but then tried to tell them that he wasn't giving up on the season.
The players are smart - which is exactly why he couldn't "explain away" throwing in the towel.
Give me some substance willie.
Why is being honest and explaining to the players that things were being changed to see what somebody else performs at PG suddenly construed by you as throwing in the towel? Sounds like you don't believe that the young men have enough sense to trust and see what is attempting to be done. Can't that be communicated by Wojo? Because you don't want that to happen? Your lame insults are tiresome, I haven't spent "all my time" ripping others posts, as you seem to be doing. Please don't "police" my time while wasting your time doing the same thing you accuse me of. You sir, have a problem with trust with your innuendoes, and with trusting Wojo to communicate the intent. There you have substance.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 07:06:00 PM
I also made the comment about personnel management - which speaks to allocation of available personnel/resources. This is where I feel Wojo has a lot of room for improvement. At the outset of the season he did have two more bodies - Burton and Dawson - and he lost their buy in/belief, based on how they were used or more accurately, not used. Additionally, Wojo could have mixed and matched players differently this season - my opinion is that he didn't mix and match in a way that maximized our chance to win. Again, that is just my opinion. Wojo had his. But, our record reflects that I'm by no means crazy or way off base in my opinion, given that this team did/does have a good deal of talent.
Wojo is a fire and brimstone guy, don't think anybody denies that. Burton, Dawson and JJJ are all more laid back guys - and not of that fire and brimstone ilk. Doesn't mean they don't care, doesn't mean they aren't playing/practicing hard - they just have a different external demeanor and persona. Yet sometimes coaches of the fire and brimstone variety can get caught up in "passion" and subconsciously value that above even performance.
Those are 2 paragraphs that I can 100% buy.
I guess I can only hope that Wojo keeps as much of the current players on roster, regardless of personality differences, long enough to get players that work more with his personality. Assuming, of course, that there are personalities that he may not work well with.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 18, 2015, 07:42:13 PM
Why is being honest and explaining to the players that things were being changed to see what somebody else performs at PG suddenly construed by you as throwing in the towel? Sounds like you don't believe that the young men have enough sense to trust and see what is attempting to be done. Can't that be communicated by Wojo? Because you don't want that to happen? Your lame insults are tiresome, I haven't spent "all my time" ripping others posts, as you seem to be doing. Please don't "police" my time while wasting your time doing the same thing you accuse me of. You sir, have a problem with trust with your innuendoes, and with trusting Wojo to communicate the intent. There you have substance.
We've already seen how others perform at PG - so trying it again after it hasn't worked before would be seen by all but about 10 people here as throwing in the towel. So if he dramatically changed the PG minutes now while claiming that we're still trying to win, I think the players are smart enough to see through it. For what it's worth, I don't think Wojo is going to do that and then lie to the players in the first place.
Call it "ridiculous" or "lame" or whatever clever insult you come up with next. And then enjoy watching Derrick.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 18, 2015, 07:15:25 PM
You've spent most of your time (as usual) just ripping others' posts.
Explain why you said the players are smart, but don't think they'd be smart enough to see right through it if Wojo gave up on the season, but then tried to tell them that he wasn't giving up on the season.
The players are smart - which is exactly why he couldn't "explain away" throwing in the towel.
Give me some substance willie.
How is it throwing in the towel if one attempts a change at something that clearly isn't working. A change may well not work but it is trying, staying status quo is giving up and getting this train wreck of a season over.
Quote from: Chip Chipman on February 18, 2015, 08:08:02 PM
How is it throwing in the towel if one attempts a change at something that clearly isn't working. A change may well not work but it is trying, staying status quo is giving up and getting this train wreck of a season over.
Others have played PG when Derrick rests or gets in foul trouble. It hasn't worked.
Enough of this thread....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 18, 2015, 08:20:15 PM
Others have played PG when Derrick rests or gets in foul trouble. It hasn't worked.
t
In the 5-7 minutes a game he doesn't play?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 18, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Scintillating response. Probably the best I've ever read from you. Kudos!
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 07:06:00 PM
I also made the comment about personnel management - which speaks to allocation of available personnel/resources. This is where I feel Wojo has a lot of room for improvement. At the outset of the season he did have two more bodies - Burton and Dawson - and he lost their buy in/belief, based on how they were used or more accurately, not used. Additionally, Wojo could have mixed and matched players differently this season - my opinion is that he didn't mix and match in a way that maximized our chance to win. Again, that is just my opinion. Wojo had his. But, our record reflects that I'm by no means crazy or way off base in my opinion, given that this team did/does have a good deal of talent.
Wojo is a fire and brimstone guy, don't think anybody denies that. Burton, Dawson and JJJ are all more laid back guys - and not of that fire and brimstone ilk. Doesn't mean they don't care, doesn't mean they aren't playing/practicing hard - they just have a different external demeanor and persona. Yet sometimes coaches of the fire and brimstone variety can get caught up in "passion" and subconsciously value that above even performance.
If guys aren't playing, I can see them looking to leave to go somewhere where they can. I don't think that's an indictment on how Wojo managed his personnel. He's not just going to play them to prevent them from thinking about leaving...they have to "earn" it.
Regarding the personality types...are Derrick, Juan, Duane and Luke "fire and brimstone" guys? Don't appear to be so to me, yet they are playing a ton of minutes. Is it because they have similar personality traits or because they do what the coaching staff wants them to do?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 18, 2015, 08:43:13 PM
If guys aren't playing, I can see them looking to leave to go somewhere where they can. I don't think that's an indictment on how Wojo managed his personnel. He's not just going to play them to prevent them from thinking about leaving...they have to "earn" it.
Regarding the personality types...are Derrick, Juan, Duane and Luke "fire and brimstone" guys? Don't appear to be so to me, yet they are playing a ton of minutes. Is it because they have similar personality traits or because they do what the coaching staff wants them to do?
I agree that you don't just play a player to prevent them from thinking about leaving. Yet, you also have to give a player, a talented player particularly, the benefit of the doubt and some legitimate playing time - particularly when the veteran(s) ahead of them are struggling.
As for personality types - perhaps fire and brimstone doesn't describe Derrick, Juan, Duane and Luke - I would say that Derrick, Juan, Duane, are all very intense/serious personalities, as well as very business like. (Juan probably less than Derrick and Duane) Juan hustles his ASS off, perhaps more than any guy I can remember in recent MU basketball history. He's an ideal role player/glue guy and through his play and production I feel does "earn" 20 minutes per game. Derrick plays to the best of his ability and plays hard, yet his production is more commensurate with a 10 minute per game role player. Luke? Well, Luke is going to play this season regardless of personality type as he's the only big on the roster. Deonte, JJJ, and Dawson are all more laid back types than the other guys, and they were directly competing with Derrick, Duane and Juan for minutes.
It isn't crazy for a coach to give the benefit of the doubt to players who share more of their core personality type. It's basic human nature. Astute coaches are able to separate personal bias and discern those personality differences. I simply feel Wojo could have and should have given more PT to all of Deonte, JJJ and Dawson - because in my opinion none of Derrick, Duane, Juan or even Steve in front of them were clearly* distinguishing themselves as being mission critical to having on the floor.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 18, 2015, 08:32:22 PM
Scintillating response. Probably the best I've ever read from you. Kudos!
Yes sir! That response was to let you know what I think of your scintillating information. Kudos back at you.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 10:12:24 PM
I agree that you don't just play a player to prevent them from thinking about leaving. Yet, you also have to give a player, a talented player particularly, the benefit of the doubt and some legitimate playing time - particularly when the veteran(s) ahead of them are struggling.
As for personality types - perhaps fire and brimstone doesn't describe Derrick, Juan, Duane and Luke - I would say that Derrick, Juan, Duane, are all very intense/serious personalities, as well as very business like. (Juan probably less than Derrick and Duane) Juan hustles his ASS off, perhaps more than any guy I can remember in recent MU basketball history. He's an ideal role player/glue guy and through his play and production I feel does "earn" 20 minutes per game. Derrick plays to the best of his ability and plays hard, yet his production is more commensurate with a 10 minute per game role player. Luke? Well, Luke is going to play this season regardless of personality type as he's the only big on the roster. Deonte, JJJ, and Dawson are all more laid back types than the other guys, and they were directly competing with Derrick, Duane and Juan for minutes.
It isn't crazy for a coach to give the benefit of the doubt to players who share more of their core personality type. It's basic human nature. Astute coaches are able to separate personal bias and discern those personality differences. I simply feel Wojo could have and should have given more PT to all of Deonte, JJJ and Dawson - because in my opinion none of Derrick, Duane, Juan or even Steve in front of them were clearly* distinguishing themselves as being mission critical to having on the floor.
WARNING: LONG POST:
Ners, I'm sorry, but I think you're getting a little off the rails with the speculation again. Do you know Juan Anderson personally? Have you spent hours with him in practice? How about off of the court? Do you know what kind of motivation he responds to? How about Dawson. Do you know him?
I don't mean to sound combative, because after all, most of what we talk about here is speculative... but I think you're getting a little far out there. Let's not build a entire narrative based entirely upon speculation.
Let's at least start with some facts, and then see where we end up.
Let's work off of what we know: 1. Wojo has an established track record of being hyper-competitive. We've all read the articles.
2. The teams mantra is "win everyday". It's easy to believe that Wojo really subscribes to that. I saw it at the Haunted Hoops scrimmage. Wojo wasn't really interested in "putting on a show". He was coaching the guys hard, and reportedly screamed at them afterwards for a lack of focus.
3. The team roster was small (both physical size, and depth) to start the season.
4. 2 players transferred, and 1 player was benched for poor practices.
Now, we don't know how Wojo treated the players who left. I know you THINK you do, but realistically, we just don't. I don't know if he was meeting with Deonte daily to help him, or if he turned a cold shoulder. It's perfectly okay to admit that we don't know. We weren't there, and 6th hand accounts on the internet are far from factual.
Now, that we've established what we know, we can speculate.
WARNING! SPECULATION! I'M NOT PRESENTING THIS AS FACT. My simple guess is that Wojo is trying to establish a clear culture at MU. Every successful coach and manager does it, especially with younger players and employees. THIS IS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE. PERIOD.
If a player is unhappy with the culture, then ultimately, it might not be a good fit for the player.
In the short run, Wojo would have been wise to say whatever he needed to say to keep Deonte and Dawson. He should have done/said/did whatever it took. It would have helped this team this season.
In the short run, Wojo would have been better to NOT bench JJJ.
However, in the long run, my bet is that Wojo is not interested in adjusting his culture to fit players. He's going to be very clear about how he does business and the expectations. If a player doesn't meet expectations, there will be consequences. If a player ultimately grows unhappy, he will have to work with the coaches to adjust, or simply move on. That's the reality, and that's okay.
I'm disappointed to see Deonte go, he was my favorite player. BUT, I also know that not EVERY coach is a good fit for EVERY player.
If Wojo is good at his job, he'll find the guys that fit what he's trying to accomplish, and he'll get the results we're all hoping for. If he's bad at his job, the school will be a turnstyle with guys constantly coming and going, and Wojo will be out of here in 4 years.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 19, 2015, 11:09:15 AM
WARNING: LONG POST:
Ners, I'm sorry, but I think you're getting a little off the rails with the speculation again. Do you know Juan Anderson personally? Have you spent hours with him in practice? How about off of the court? Do you know what kind of motivation he responds to? How about Dawson. Do you know him?
I don't mean to sound combative, because after all, most of what we talk about here is speculative... but I think you're getting a little far out there. Let's not build a entire narrative based entirely upon speculation.
Let's at least start with some facts, and then see where we end up.
Let's work off of what we know:
1. Wojo has an established track record of being hyper-competitive. We've all read the articles.
2. The teams mantra is "win everyday". It's easy to believe that Wojo really subscribes to that. I saw it at the Haunted Hoops scrimmage. Wojo wasn't really interested in "putting on a show". He was coaching the guys hard, and reportedly screamed at them afterwards for a lack of focus.
3. The team roster was small (both physical size, and depth) to start the season.
4. 2 players transferred, and 1 player was benched for poor practices.
Now, we don't know how Wojo treated the players who left. I know you THINK you do, but realistically, we just don't. I don't know if he was meeting with Deonte daily to help him, or if he turned a cold shoulder. It's perfectly okay to admit that we don't know. We weren't there, and 6th hand accounts on the internet are far from factual.
Now, that we've established what we know, we can speculate.
WARNING! SPECULATION! I'M NOT PRESENTING THIS AS FACT.
My simple guess is that Wojo is trying to establish a clear culture at MU. Every successful coach and manager does it, especially with younger players and employees. THIS IS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE. PERIOD.
If a player is unhappy with the culture, then ultimately, it might not be a good fit for the player.
In the short run, Wojo would have been wise to say whatever he needed to say to keep Deonte and Dawson. He should have done/said/did whatever it took. It would have helped this team this season.
In the short run, Wojo would have been better to NOT bench JJJ.
However, in the long run, my bet is that Wojo is not interested in adjusting his culture to fit players. He's going to be very clear about how he does business and the expectations. If a player doesn't meet expectations, there will be consequences. If a player ultimately grows unhappy, he will have to work with the coaches to adjust, or simply move on. That's the reality, and that's okay.
I'm disappointed to see Deonte go, he was my favorite player. BUT, I also know that not EVERY coach is a good fit for EVERY player.
If Wojo is good at his job, he'll find the guys that fit what he's trying to accomplish, and he'll get the results we're all hoping for. If he's bad at his job, the school will be a turnstyle with guys constantly coming and going, and Wojo will be out of here in 4 years.
Pretty good analysis, Ammo, and I agree with most of it. Only area I have some concern about is setting expectations, and if expectations are not met there will be consequences. If that is true, then Wojo's expectations for this year at PG are low. Because 35-38 minutes a game for Derrick is not a consequence for reasonable expectations IMO. Rather than get into a debate about that, I will accept that Wojo sees more than I do for that position, even though I disagree with that choice--especially at this point of the year, and given that Duane could be Wojo's only candidate for that position next year. Wojo is making the $2 million, I am not. Just think he should be giving more of a run to Duane at this time.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 19, 2015, 11:50:33 AM
Pretty good analysis, Ammo, and I agree with most of it. Only area I have some concern about is setting expectations, and if expectations are not met there will be consequences. If that is true, then Wojo's expectations for this year at PG are low. Because 35-38 minutes a game for Derrick is not a consequence for reasonable expectations IMO. Rather than get into a debate about that, I will accept that Wojo sees more than I do for that position, even though I disagree with that choice--especially at this point of the year, and given that Duane could be Wojo's only candidate for that position next year. Wojo is making the $2 million, I am not. Just think he should be giving more of a run to Duane at this time.
That's fair.
When I say consequences, it's more often for overall approach/understand/focus/effort, not a specific performance.
Derrick is not a good free throw shooter, but if he's putting in the effort every single day, and working extra on it, I'm not sure Wojo is going to single him out and scream at him. There's no point. The kid is doing everything he can.
If a player loses focus in practice, or takes a bad shot early in the shot clock, or doesn't play to the scouting report, then he's going to hear about it from the coach. If the player continues to make the same mistake, then he'll see some consequences (benched, extra laps, etc.).
Again, this is high level stuff. I don't sit in practice. I don't know exactly how Wojo is approaching each situation. These are just the basic building blocks to building a culture.
I'd just like to congratulate everyone involved in these last 2-3 pages of this topic for having some of the most rational, cordial, non hyperbolic discussion that has centered around several of the hot button issues this board talks about which usually devolve into namecalling and worse.
Regardless of the opinion or point of reference, I think those who contributed did so in a manner that promoted mutual understanding and respect and the results were actually pretty insightful.
Thanks, as this is what makes this place so worthwhile to talke MUBB.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 19, 2015, 12:51:24 PM
I'd just like to congratulate everyone involved in these last 2-3 pages of this topic for having some of the most rational, cordial, non hyperbolic discussion that has centered around several of the hot button issues this board talks about which usually devolve into namecalling and worse.
Regardless of the opinion or point of reference, I think those who contributed did so in a manner that promoted mutual understanding and respect and the results were actually pretty insightful.
Thanks, as this is what makes this place so worthwhile to talke MUBB.
Serious? Or Teal?
Seriously.
We actually discussed Derrick Wilson, importance of guard play, Wojo's rotations, transfers out of the program, etc. without it derailing into chaos.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 18, 2015, 10:12:24 PM
I agree that you don't just play a player to prevent them from thinking about leaving. Yet, you also have to give a player, a talented player particularly, the benefit of the doubt and some legitimate playing time - particularly when the veteran(s) ahead of them are struggling.
As for personality types - perhaps fire and brimstone doesn't describe Derrick, Juan, Duane and Luke - I would say that Derrick, Juan, Duane, are all very intense/serious personalities, as well as very business like. (Juan probably less than Derrick and Duane) Juan hustles his ASS off, perhaps more than any guy I can remember in recent MU basketball history. He's an ideal role player/glue guy and through his play and production I feel does "earn" 20 minutes per game. Derrick plays to the best of his ability and plays hard, yet his production is more commensurate with a 10 minute per game role player. Luke? Well, Luke is going to play this season regardless of personality type as he's the only big on the roster. Deonte, JJJ, and Dawson are all more laid back types than the other guys, and they were directly competing with Derrick, Duane and Juan for minutes.
It isn't crazy for a coach to give the benefit of the doubt to players who share more of their core personality type. It's basic human nature. Astute coaches are able to separate personal bias and discern those personality differences. I simply feel Wojo could have and should have given more PT to all of Deonte, JJJ and Dawson - because in my opinion none of Derrick, Duane, Juan or even Steve in front of them were clearly* distinguishing themselves as being mission critical to having on the floor.
This is a very accurate assessment of the situation and players.
Quote from: Texas Western on February 19, 2015, 02:43:14 PM
This is a very accurate assessment of the situation and player.
To which player are you referring?
"Accurate assessment" sounds more like an opinion. Got anything to back up your statement or strictly conjecture as usual?
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on February 19, 2015, 02:59:10 PM
To which player are you referring?
"Accurate assessment" sounds more like an opinion. Got anything to back up your statement or strictly conjecture as usual?
\
And after a good discussion for a few pages TW decides it's time to blow it all up with another of his posts which infers he has intimate knowledge of the situation.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 19, 2015, 11:09:15 AM
WARNING: LONG POST:
Ners, I'm sorry, but I think you're getting a little off the rails with the speculation again. Do you know Juan Anderson personally? Have you spent hours with him in practice? How about off of the court? Do you know what kind of motivation he responds to? How about Dawson. Do you know him?
I don't mean to sound combative, because after all, most of what we talk about here is speculative... but I think you're getting a little far out there. Let's not build a entire narrative based entirely upon speculation.
Let's at least start with some facts, and then see where we end up.
Let's work off of what we know:
1. Wojo has an established track record of being hyper-competitive. We've all read the articles.
2. The teams mantra is "win everyday". It's easy to believe that Wojo really subscribes to that. I saw it at the Haunted Hoops scrimmage. Wojo wasn't really interested in "putting on a show". He was coaching the guys hard, and reportedly screamed at them afterwards for a lack of focus.
3. The team roster was small (both physical size, and depth) to start the season.
4. 2 players transferred, and 1 player was benched for poor practices.
Now, we don't know how Wojo treated the players who left. I know you THINK you do, but realistically, we just don't. I don't know if he was meeting with Deonte daily to help him, or if he turned a cold shoulder. It's perfectly okay to admit that we don't know. We weren't there, and 6th hand accounts on the internet are far from factual.
Now, that we've established what we know, we can speculate.
WARNING! SPECULATION! I'M NOT PRESENTING THIS AS FACT.
My simple guess is that Wojo is trying to establish a clear culture at MU. Every successful coach and manager does it, especially with younger players and employees. THIS IS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE. PERIOD.
If a player is unhappy with the culture, then ultimately, it might not be a good fit for the player.
In the short run, Wojo would have been wise to say whatever he needed to say to keep Deonte and Dawson. He should have done/said/did whatever it took. It would have helped this team this season.
In the short run, Wojo would have been better to NOT bench JJJ.
However, in the long run, my bet is that Wojo is not interested in adjusting his culture to fit players. He's going to be very clear about how he does business and the expectations. If a player doesn't meet expectations, there will be consequences. If a player ultimately grows unhappy, he will have to work with the coaches to adjust, or simply move on. That's the reality, and that's okay.
I'm disappointed to see Deonte go, he was my favorite player. BUT, I also know that not EVERY coach is a good fit for EVERY player.
If Wojo is good at his job, he'll find the guys that fit what he's trying to accomplish, and he'll get the results we're all hoping for. If he's bad at his job, the school will be a turnstyle with guys constantly coming and going, and Wojo will be out of here in 4 years.
I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.
My take on the bolded:
1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization. In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.
2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."
3) Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.
4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture." When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."
IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player. However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job. Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach. And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate. My point: Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court. Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.
But wait, Ners. Buzz was a rigid hardass, and look at all his success.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 19, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
But wait, Ners. Buzz was a rigid hardass, and look at all his success.
I would say that while Buzz could be a hardass, he had VERY good people skills (to the people he wanted to invest them in), and a great understanding/adaptability of how to best motivate and connect with each of his individual players.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 19, 2015, 04:17:27 PM
I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.
My take on the bolded:
1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization. In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.
2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."
3) Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.
4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture." When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."
IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player. However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job. Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach. And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate. My point: Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court. Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.
I don't disagree that a good manager has to know when to step on the gas and when to pull back, but I guess those are the nuances that we don't really know in these specific situations. We don't know the amount of counseling or meetings Wojo had with these guys. Did he meet with Burton everyday? Twice per day? How close were they? What were the points of contention? Burton wasn't a fan of Buzz at the end of last season either. Maybe Burton really needed a change in scenery all together? I don't know. I wasn't there. I won't pretend like I know what happened. Maybe Wojo gave him the cold shoulder. Again, I don't know.
As far as wins this year and immediate results... well, yes and no. Certainly immediate success adds to credibility in the short term. However, it can also be empty calories.
Put it this way: Would the Bears win more games with or without Jay Cutler next year? The answer is arguably "more", but that still doesn't mean they should keep him.
Now, I'm not comparing Jay directly to any MU players, but merely saying that immediate results aren't always the priority for any coach or manager.
The correct culture and the correct mix of talented players will generate success, at least that is what a lot coaches believe. Bo Ryan (love him or hate him) is clearly an example of this. Certainly Bo might have had more short-term success if he adapted to some of his players. However, in the long run, he's created a culture and a system that's sustainable.
Again, my opinion is that Wojo appears to be heading in the same direction. Now, please don't mistake this for a "My way or the highway" approach. I don't suspect that's whats happening. My guess is that Wojo expects players to act and perform in a certain manner (focus, preparation, effort, etc.). If players excel in those areas, then they can maximize their potential. If they are lacking in those areas, the coaching staff is going to make a correction to the behavior.
If in 4 years, MU sucks and has 3 transfers per season, then we can all dance on Wojo's grave, call him "Weirdjo" and watch Deonte dominate the NBA.
However, if in 4 years, MU is competing for a conference title, well, then we might have to say that this season was "worth it" to build the foundation and culture that the coaches want.
Time will tell the tale.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 19, 2015, 04:17:27 PM
I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.
My take on the bolded:
1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization. In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.
2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."
3) Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.
4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture." When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."
IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player. However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job. Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach. And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate. My point: Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court. Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.
Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.
In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.
He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.
I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.
Give him time. Let's see what he can do.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 19, 2015, 04:17:27 PM
I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.
My take on the bolded:
1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization. In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.
2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."
3) Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.
4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture." When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."
IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player. However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job. Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach. And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate. My point: Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court. Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.
This is precisely how I see the situation. Well written analysis.
After talking to my guy tonight ... we are lucky to have Wojo here. I don't care what Ners or Texas Western say because I know what I know. I'm not trying to be cryptic or stir the pot but we needed Wojo here, plain and simple.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 19, 2015, 03:08:59 PM
\
And after a good discussion for a few pages TW decides it's time to blow it all up with another of his posts which infers he has intimate knowledge of the situation.
Not really I just was supporting Mr. Ners analysis.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 19, 2015, 09:40:13 PM
Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.
In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.
He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.
I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.
Give him time. Let's see what he can do.
A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.
Quote from: Texas Western on February 19, 2015, 10:51:56 PM
A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.
Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.
Quote from: brandx on February 19, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.
Easy to say that now. At the beginning it looked bleak. The guy made chicken salad out of chicken s.#1*
Quote from: brandx on February 19, 2015, 11:13:22 PM
Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.
Not to mention he was on the staff last season.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 19, 2015, 11:29:49 PM
Not to mention he was on the staff last season.
Butler was picked in a tie for 7th in the preseason poll with Us. There were no high expectations for Butler. The coach clearly outperformed every ones expectations. Wojo has clearly under performed. No need to sugar coat it. Wojo has demonstrated he has much growing to do. I won't cut him slack because he actually had talent to work with. Head to head he got out coached by the Butler guy.
Quote from: Texas Western on February 19, 2015, 11:37:17 PM
Butler was picked in a tie for 7th in the preseason poll with Us. There were no high expectations for Butler. The coach clearly outperformed every ones expectations. Wojo has clearly under performed. No need to sugar coat it. Wojo has demonstrated he has much growing to do. I won't cut him slack because he actually had talent to work with. Head to head he got out coached by the Butler guy.
We were picked near the bottom of the league...we are near the bottom of the league. How is that "clearly underperforming"?
I've seen a lot of recurring "Wojo is a my way or the highway guy" or "Wojo isn't flexible" talk from the Wojo sucks crowd. First, if Wojo is inflexible what the hell was Buzz?!?! Second, I know I'm painting with a broad brush but is this some sort of Millennial reaction to someone being in charge??
He doesn't take my feelings and opinions into account when he makes his decision. He doesn't let me do what I want to do. He makes us run when we don't want to run.
The man is running a multi-million dollar enterprise involving 18-23 year young adults at a high competitive level....I would hope Wojo has an absolute vision and is following it. You have to decide what your core operating principles are and stick to them.
Just because he isn't malleable in a way the Wojo sucks crowd wants him to be doesn't mean he isn't. Give me a specific example of how Wojo refused to flex when he should have flexed
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 19, 2015, 09:40:13 PM
Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.
In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.
He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.
I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.
Give him time. Let's see what he can do.
This s awesome. In the last two posts we have learned that one day we might refer to Wojo as Wierdjo, or he may be like Whitey Herzog. So two new nicknames for Wojo could be Wierdjo, or the White Rat!!
Quote from: onepostellenson on February 19, 2015, 10:45:12 PM
After talking to my guy tonight ... we are lucky to have Wojo here. I don't care what Ners or Texas Western say because I know what I know. I'm not trying to be cryptic or stir the pot but we needed Wojo here, plain and simple.
We all know what we know, or think we know what we think we know. "We are who we thought we would be"
Quote from: Texas Western on February 19, 2015, 10:51:56 PM
A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.
You should be ashamed of yourself, comparing Butler's accomplishments to our's. Butler did not even deserve to get into the BEast when it was formed, according to many here. We are way, way higher up the food chain than Butler. Ask us---we will tell you.
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 06:18:20 AM
I've seen a lot of recurring "Wojo is a my way or the highway guy" or "Wojo isn't flexible" talk from the Wojo sucks crowd. First, if Wojo is inflexible what the hell was Buzz?!?! Second, I know I'm painting with a broad brush but is this some sort of Millennial reaction to someone being in charge??
He doesn't take my feelings and opinions into account when he makes his decision. He doesn't let me do what I want to do. He makes us run when we don't want to run.
The man is running a multi-million dollar enterprise involving 18-23 year young adults at a high competitive level....I would hope Wojo has an absolute vision and is following it. You have to decide what your core operating principles are and stick to them.
Just because he isn't malleable in a way the Wojo sucks crowd wants him to be doesn't mean he isn't. Give me a specific example of how Wojo refused to flex when he should have flexed
Let's see....the guy that said Wojo wasn't flexible enough was Ners who also has spoken well of Wojo so that puts him in the "Wojo sucks crowd?" What is great about this board is that we can have it anyway we want it. Wasn.t that in a Foreigner song--or was it Journey?
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 19, 2015, 11:29:49 PM
Not to mention he was on the staff last season.
That should not matter. Wojo was on the staff of the greatest program in the country, so those two cancel each other out.
1. Wojo is rigid and inflexible.
2. Wojo learned under a coach who almost always plays man to man, and came in here intending to always play man to man. After four games, he saw it wasn't working, so he surprised everyone by switching to zone.
3. Wojo started JJJ and SC3 the first three games, and brought both Derrick and Duane off the bench. Derrick didn't even get 20 minutes in either of the first two games. Wojo saw something he didn't like, and soon inserted Derrick and Duane for JJJ and SC3.
Which of those statements is inconsistent with the others?
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 19, 2015, 09:09:04 PM
The correct culture and the correct mix of talented players will generate success, at least that is what a lot coaches believe. Bo Ryan (love him or hate him) is clearly an example of this. Certainly Bo might have had more short-term success if he adapted to some of his players. However, in the long run, he's created a culture and a system that's sustrightble.
Ai na? Hahaha
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 06:18:20 AM
I've seen a lot of recurring "Wojo is a my way or the highway guy" or "Wojo isn't flexible" talk from the Wojo sucks crowd. First, if Wojo is inflexible what the hell was Buzz?!?! Second, I know I'm painting with a broad brush but is this some sort of Millennial reaction to someone being in charge??
He doesn't take my feelings and opinions into account when he makes his decision. He doesn't let me do what I want to do. He makes us run when we don't want to run.
The man is running a multi-million dollar enterprise involving 18-23 year young adults at a high competitive level....I would hope Wojo has an absolute vision and is following it. You have to decide what your core operating principles are and stick to them.
Just because he isn't malleable in a way the Wojo sucks crowd wants him to be doesn't mean he isn't. Give me a specific example of how Wojo refused to flex when he should have flexed
He's played Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes every conference game to an amazing 3-10 record headed toward 4-14.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 20, 2015, 07:33:59 AM
1. Wojo is rigid and inflexible.
2. Wojo learned under a coach who almost always plays man to man, and came in here intending to always play man to man. After four games, he saw it wasn't working, so he surprised everyone by switching to zone.
3. Wojo started JJJ and SC3 the first three games, and brought both Derrick and Duane off the bench. Derrick didn't even get 20 minutes in either of the first two games. Wojo saw something he didn't like, and soon inserted Derrick and Duane for JJJ and SC3.
Which of those statements is inconsistent with the others?
Ahh...Derrick was injured to start the year. Derrick coming off the bench had NOTHING to do with Wojo's preferences. And Derrick played 35 minutes in our third game in our epic loss at home against Number 257 Nebraska Omaha - whereby our guards REAPEATEDLY got blown by on dribble drive penetration.
Oh, and in the Nebraska Omaha game - JJJ was benched and relegated to 9 minutes - after getting 30+ his first two games. And some wonder how a kids attitude might get affected - you play a great game in the season opener, struggle at Ohio State as the rest of the team did - and then you get 9 minutes in Game 3 of the year while watching your team lose to a new member to Division 1 basketball.
Duane wasn't injured to start the year, and Derrick's injury had nothing to do with the switch to zone.
And JJJ still started the Omaha game once Derrick was healthy. JJJ was sent to the bench after he had shot 2-8 (0-4 from 3) against Ohio State, and then missed his first shot against Omaha, making him 2 for his last 9 attempts. And he wasn't making up for poor shooting with his ballhandling or defense....
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 09:15:25 AM
He's played Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes every conference game to an amazing 3-10 record headed toward 4-14.
That has nothing to do with flexibility....unless of course you are claiming that Wojo plays Derrick for 30+ minutes in spite of knowing he had better options. Is that your contention?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 20, 2015, 09:29:35 AM
Duane wasn't injured to start the year, and Derrick's injury had nothing to do with the switch to zone.
And JJJ still started the Omaha game once Derrick was healthy. JJJ was sent to the bench after he had shot 2-8 (0-4 from 3) against Ohio State, and then missed his first shot against Omaha, making him 2 for his last 9 attempts. And he wasn't making up for poor shooting with his ballhandling or defense....
You tried to argue that Wojo showed flexibility by NOT starting Derrick (and Duane) to start the season. Please point out where I ever said Duane was injured?? Your point was irrelevant about Wojo NOT starting Derrick - because he was injured. As soon as he was back at full strength - he got 35 minutes against UNO.
And FYI - Games are different entities. And if you ridiculously believe shooting 2-8 on the road against a Top 20 team, and then missing your FIRST shot against UNO (while getting 1 steal and 1 blocked shot in 9 minutes) is grounds for a benching - well - it is pointless to engage in a discussion with you.
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 09:52:03 AM
That has nothing to do with flexibility....unless of course you are claiming that Wojo plays Derrick for 30+ minutes in spite of knowing he had better options. Is that your contention?
Disagree. Wojo had options - Duane and Carlino. He chose Derrick, and he hasn't deviated/flexed all year long. His call. His choice. But let's please stop with all of the excuses for why it is justifiable that this team, with what it entered the season with, in the way of talent is 3-10, and 11-14 overall - on its way to roughly a 12-18 finish.
We are rated 175th in Offensive Efficiency. Coming off a year where we finished 96th in Offensive Efficiency, which was 44 spots worse than Buzz's 2nd worst O-Efficiency team. Did Buzz just forget how to coach offense? We had a top O-Efficiency player in the country on that team in Gardner, along with 2, NBA D-League players - with Mayo matching/bettering the numbers Vander Blue put up as a Junior.
But hey, lets keep pounding our head against the wall and REFUSING to try a different approach when we now have nearly 2 full seasons of data that show our offense is total and complete horse sh$t when piloted by Derrick Wilson for 30+ minutes per game. Shocker.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
Disagree. Wojo had options - Duane and Carlino. He chose Derrick, and he hasn't deviated/flexed all year long. His call. His choice. But let's please stop with all of the excuses for why it is justifiable that this team, with what it entered the season with, in the way of talent is 3-10, and 11-14 overall - on its way to roughly a 12-18 finish.
We are rated 175th in Offensive Efficiency. Coming off a year where we finished 96th in Offensive Efficiency, which was 44 spots worse than Buzz's 2nd worst O-Efficiency team. Did Buzz just forget how to coach offense? We had a top O-Efficiency player in the country on that team in Gardner, along with 2, NBA D-League players - with Mayo matching/bettering the numbers Vander Blue put up as a Junior.
But hey, lets keep pounding our head against the wall and REFUSING to try a different approach when we now have nearly 2 full seasons of data that show our offense is total and complete horse sh$t when piloted by Derrick Wilson for 30+ minutes per game. Shocker.
Once again, you ignore the point. Is your contention that Wojo played Derrick the minutes he did, because he knew he had better options but refused to select those? This is a yes or no question, address it as such.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
Disagree. Wojo had options - Duane and Carlino. He chose Derrick, and he hasn't deviated/flexed all year long. His call. His choice. But let's please stop with all of the excuses for why it is justifiable that this team, with what it entered the season with, in the way of talent is 3-10, and 11-14 overall - on its way to roughly a 12-18 finish.
Carlino is better off the ball and Duane isn't a PG. Derrick is the only true PG on the roster. He's by far the team's best ball-handler and he's the team's best perimeter defender. Ideally, he'd be a back-up playing 10-12 min/game but that's not the case. Sure, Wojo could let Carlino or Duane run the point but that would be to the detriment of the team so if he's going to do that, why not let Cohen or Steve run the point? Believe me, Wojo doesn't want to give Derrick 30+ minutes a game but there just isn't another option. He tried other options and they didn't work.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
We are rated 175th in Offensive Efficiency. Coming off a year where we finished 96th in Offensive Efficiency, which was 44 spots worse than Buzz's 2nd worst O-Efficiency team. Did Buzz just forget how to coach offense? We had a top O-Efficiency player in the country on that team in Gardner, along with 2, NBA D-League players - with Mayo matching/bettering the numbers Vander Blue put up as a Junior.
Vander Blue played nearly 40% more minutes per game than Todd Mayo. Mayo in no way matched or bettered Blue's stats. That's just flat-out wrong and you know it.
Derrick's numbers are similar to Cadougan's junior year so shouldn't this team be Sweet 16 bound?
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
But hey, lets keep pounding our head against the wall and REFUSING to try a different approach when we now have nearly 2 full seasons of data that show our offense is total and complete horse sh$t when piloted by Derrick Wilson for 30+ minutes per game. Shocker.
You're back to acting like Derrick is the sole problem with this team's offense. Carlino is the team's best offensive player. Who are the 3 next-best? Duane, who has been inconsistent and is shooting under 40%? JJJ who is also arguably the team's worst defender? Fischer? Juan? Cohen? Who? This team has 1 player with a proven ability to create his own shot and score consistently. It's not like Derrick is holding back these other players from reaching their offensive potential. It's just not there.
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 10:26:34 AM
Once again, you ignore the point. Is your contention that Wojo played Derrick the minutes he did, because he knew he had better options but refused to select those? This is a yes or no question, address it as such.
My contention is that Wojo miscalculated how many problems go along with playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game. My contention is that in Wojo's opinion, the team had its best chance at winning with Derrick playing PG 30+ minutes per game. My firm belief, is that Wojo's opinion and decision on the matter was wrong, and at the the end of the day, our record speaks to the quality of his decision-making. Again, it goes back to allocation of resources on the roster.
How would this lineup/depth charge have looked to start the year until Luke became eligible?
Duane/Derrick
Carlino/Dawson
JJJ/Dawson
Burton/Steve
Juan/Steve
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 10:31:57 AM
Carlino is better off the ball and Duane isn't a PG. Derrick is the only true PG on the roster. He's by far the team's best ball-handler and he's the team's best perimeter defender. Ideally, he'd be a back-up playing 10-12 min/game but that's not the case. Sure, Wojo could let Carlino or Duane run the point but that would be to the detriment of the team so if he's going to do that, why not let Cohen or Steve run the point? Believe me, Wojo doesn't want to give Derrick 30+ minutes a game but there just isn't another option. He tried other options and they didn't work.
Vander Blue played nearly 40% more minutes per game than Todd Mayo. Mayo in no way matched or bettered Blue's stats. That's just flat-out wrong and you know it.
Derrick's numbers are similar to Cadougan's junior year so shouldn't this team be Sweet 16 bound?
You're back to acting like Derrick is the sole problem with this team's offense. Carlino is the team's best offensive player. Who are the 3 next-best? Duane, who has been inconsistent and is shooting under 40%? JJJ who is also arguably the team's worst defender? Fischer? Juan? Cohen? Who? This team has 1 player with a proven ability to create his own shot and score consistently. It's not like Derrick is holding back these other players from reaching their offensive potential. It's just not there.
Here are the team's best offensive players:
1.Carlino
1a. Duane
3. Fischer
4. JJJ
5. Sandy
6. Steve
7. Juan
8. Derrick.
Eighth of 8 does not justify 35 minutes per game.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:37:59 AM
My contention is that Wojo miscalculated how many problems go along with playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game. My contention is that in Wojo's opinion, the team had its best chance at winning with Derrick playing PG 30+ minutes per game. My firm belief, is that Wojo's opinion and decision on the matter was wrong, and at the the end of the day, our record speaks to the quality of his decision-making. Again, it goes back to allocation of resources on the roster.
How would this lineup/depth charge have looked to start the year until Luke became eligible?
Duane/Derrick
Carlino/Dawson
JJJ/Dawson
Burton/Steve
Juan/Steve
OK, point being, Wojo isn't inflexible he's just wrong. That's fine, but don't use Derrick as an example of Wojo being inflexible. So I ask again, can you give me an example of where Wojo was inflexible? This is a repeated theme from you and TW and I'd like it settled.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:37:59 AM
My contention is that Wojo miscalculated how many problems go along with playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game. My contention is that in Wojo's opinion, the team had its best chance at winning with Derrick playing PG 30+ minutes per game. My firm belief, is that Wojo's opinion and decision on the matter was wrong, and at the the end of the day, our record speaks to the quality of his decision-making. Again, it goes back to allocation of resources on the roster.
How would this lineup/depth charge have looked to start the year until Luke became eligible?
Duane/Derrick
Carlino/Dawson
JJJ/Dawson
Burton/Steve
Juan/Steve
This is actually your most clear and concise post on this topic. Honestly.
I don't agree with you, but you're very clear and logical here. No narratives. No rampant speculation.
You should just post this in your signature, and then never bring it up again. We all understand now.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 10:31:57 AM
Carlino is better off the ball and Duane isn't a PG. Derrick is the only true PG on the roster. He's by far the team's best ball-handler and he's the team's best perimeter defender. Ideally, he'd be a back-up playing 10-12 min/game but that's not the case. Sure, Wojo could let Carlino or Duane run the point but that would be to the detriment of the team so if he's going to do that, why not let Cohen or Steve run the point? Believe me, Wojo doesn't want to give Derrick 30+ minutes a game but there just isn't another option. He tried other options and they didn't work.
Vander Blue played nearly 40% more minutes per game than Todd Mayo. Mayo in no way matched or bettered Blue's stats. That's just flat-out wrong and you know it.
Derrick's numbers are similar to Cadougan's junior year so shouldn't this team be Sweet 16 bound?
You're back to acting like Derrick is the sole problem with this team's offense. Carlino is the team's best offensive player. Who are the 3 next-best? Duane, who has been inconsistent and is shooting under 40%? JJJ who is also arguably the team's worst defender? Fischer? Juan? Cohen? Who? This team has 1 player with a proven ability to create his own shot and score consistently. It's not like Derrick is holding back these other players from reaching their offensive potential. It's just not there.
So Duane isn't capable of playing PG? Why? Because he can shoot the ball, create shots, take shots, make plays? Notice that the trend in the game is that you have playmaking/shooting PGs? Lillard. Westbrook. Rose. Parker. Kemba Walker. Napier. Harrison.
JJJ, arguably the teams worst defender?? LOL. He's arguably the best. Rarely fouls. Forces turnovers at a high rate, and teams overall defensive metrics are FAR better when he plays 20+ minutes.
And as for Mayo/Vander - yes, Buzz inexeplicably played Mayo for only 55% of the available minutes last year - yet Mayo shot the ball better (from everywhere - 2's, 3 and FT line) as a junior than Vander, score the ball at a higher rate, assisted at a higher rate, rebounded at a higher rate, stole the ball at a higher rate.
And yet you and the others who took up for Buzz all of last year, and Derrick of course, also refuse to reject the actual reality that Mayo was every bit the player Vander Blue was as a junior.
And the whole tired argument of "there just isn't another option to run PG" got really old last year, yet I could go along with that, yet now you and the others once again are using that argument - and it simply is NOT true.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:37:59 AM
My contention is that Wojo miscalculated how many problems go along with playing Derrick Wilson 30+ minutes per game. My contention is that in Wojo's opinion, the team had its best chance at winning with Derrick playing PG 30+ minutes per game. My firm belief, is that Wojo's opinion and decision on the matter was wrong, and at the the end of the day, our record speaks to the quality of his decision-making. Again, it goes back to allocation of resources on the roster.
How would this lineup/depth charge have looked to start the year until Luke became eligible?
Duane/Derrick
Carlino/Dawson
JJJ/Dawson
Burton/Steve
Juan/Steve
Duane isn't a PG.
Dawson was in over his head.
Burton playing big minutes at the 4 would have been disastrous.
Juan at the 5 would have been even more disastrous.
This line-up would have allowed a ton of points, been highly TO-prone, had awful offensive efficiency and would have gotten killed in the post and on the boards.
No matter how you slice it, this team needs Derrick to be the PG. It's not ideal but it's better than the alternatives.
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 10:45:09 AM
OK, point being, Wojo isn't inflexible he's just wrong. That's fine, but don't use Derrick as an example of Wojo being inflexible. So I ask again, can you give me an example of where Wojo was inflexible? This is a repeated theme from you and TW and I'd like it settled.
I'm baffled by how and what hairs you are trying to split here...he has been inflexible. He's refused to deviate his allocation of PT at PG - even when the losses mount up at a rate not seen since the Bob Dukiet. To me, that reeks of inflexibility - or perhaps ego - to actually make the change and potentially* see the team perform much better and have to deal with the notion that you were wrong the whole season up to that point. Much like Buzz last year. Don't think for a minute coaches at this level don't have HUGE egos and when they are keenly aware their is unrest in the fanbase with their minute allocation decisions - deviating from that, and actually seeing the team potentially perform much better becomes an ego-centric issue.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
Duane isn't a PG.
Dawson was in over his head.
Burton playing big minutes at the 4 would have been disastrous.
Juan at the 5 would have been even more disastrous.
This line-up would have allowed a ton of points, been highly TO-prone, had awful offensive efficiency and would have gotten killed in the post and on the boards.
No matter how you slice it, this team needs Derrick to be the PG. It's not ideal but it's better than the alternatives.
This isn't going anywhere.
We have a fundamental disagreement. Ners was clear in his opinion. You disagree. (so do I)
We don't need to relieve this 50 times again. (myself included).
Maybe we can all move on?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
Duane isn't a PG.
Dawson was in over his head.
Burton playing big minutes at the 4 would have been disastrous.
Juan at the 5 would have been even more disastrous.
This line-up would have allowed a ton of points, been highly TO-prone, had awful offensive efficiency and would have gotten killed in the post and on the boards.
No matter how you slice it, this team needs Derrick to be the PG. It's not ideal but it's better than the alternatives.
I see an entire post above based on opinion, after opinion, after opinion, after opinion - when the FACTS that we absolutely know beyond a shadow of a doubt are: NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT OUR TEAM HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE A LOSER AND AWFUL FROM AN OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY STANDPOINT WITH DERRICK WILSON "NEEDING TO BE THE PG."
Also, forgot to post the stats for you to educate yourself with regard to Mayo vs Vander...
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=todd-mayo&i=1&p1=vander-blue
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:54:27 AM
I'm baffled by how and what hairs you are trying to split here...he has been inflexible. He's refused to deviate his allocation of PT at PG - even when the losses mount up at a rate not seen since the Bob Dukiet. To me, that reeks of inflexibility - or perhaps ego - to actually make the change and potentially* see the team perform much better and have to deal with the notion that you were wrong the whole season up to that point. Much like Buzz last year. Don't think for a minute coaches at this level don't have HUGE egos and when they are keenly aware their is unrest in the fanbase with their minute allocation decisions - deviating from that, and actually seeing the team potentially perform much better becomes an ego-centric issue.
See, why did you have to post this?
Now you're getting weird again.
Wojo has adapted throughout the season (changed defenses, changed starters, plays guys when they are hot, started to play Cohen more, etc.).
He hasn't benched Derrick, (which is what you want), but that doesn't mean he's inflexible. It just means he thinks Derrick at PG is the correct move.
You disagree with Wojo, which is fine. BUT, just because you don't like it doesn't mean Wojo is inflexible. We don't know what kind of stuff they are trying in practice. We don't sit in on meetings. We don't have enough input.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 20, 2015, 10:55:30 AM
This isn't going anywhere.
We have a fundamental disagreement. Ners was clear in his opinion. You disagree. (so do I)
We don't need to relieve this 50 times again. (myself included).
Maybe we can all move on?
You're right. I'm moving on.
Ners' complete and total buffoonery has sucked me back in so I'm taking a break from Scoop for a while.
Happy Easter everyone!
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 11:06:56 AM
You're right. I'm moving on.
Ners' complete and total buffoonery has sucked me back in so I'm taking a break from Scoop for a while.
Happy Easter everyone!
I assume this type of post was going to occur, given that you wouldn't have any logical or rational rebuttal for what I just posted in reply to your total and complete opinion piece. I feel for all of you guys who have backed yourselves into a corner trying to purport and float the continued narrative that we absolutely HAVE to have Derrick Wilson playing 30+ minutes at PG. If I were trying to support that argument, I know it would make me insane because there is no rational, nor logical evidence to support the position.
But, Happy Easter Merritt. Probably a good move at this point to take a hiatus from the board like Sultan did last year for Lent, after it was evident there was just going to be more of the same egg on the face to have to deal with here with regard to seriously flawed takes.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 10:54:27 AM
I'm baffled by how and what hairs you are trying to split here...he has been inflexible. He's refused to deviate his allocation of PT at PG - even when the losses mount up at a rate not seen since the Bob Dukiet. To me, that reeks of inflexibility - or perhaps ego - to actually make the change and potentially* see the team perform much better and have to deal with the notion that you were wrong the whole season up to that point. Much like Buzz last year. Don't think for a minute coaches at this level don't have HUGE egos and when they are keenly aware their is unrest in the fanbase with their minute allocation decisions - deviating from that, and actually seeing the team potentially perform much better becomes an ego-centric issue.
I'm "splitting hairs" because if you think Wojo intentionally played Derrick knowing he had better options that would be grounds for firing for me and is just crazy talk from you. If you don't think he did it intentionally, then it is a difference of opinion between you and him....which is fine, I don't agree with you but you can have that opinion and we move on.
I'm coming to the conclusion that you are irrational and forcing facts to meet your narrative. That's fine, but not what I'm on Scoop for.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 20, 2015, 10:43:50 AM
Here are the team's best offensive players:
1.Carlino
1a. Duane
3. Fischer
4. JJJ
5. Sandy
6. Steve
7. Juan
8. Derrick.
Eighth of 8 does not justify 35 minutes per game.
Agree with 1,2,3, and 8. Not sure how JJJ is 4. He has the worst three point percentage and overall shooting percentage on the team, and also commits the most TO's per 40 mins.
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 11:17:55 AM
I'm "splitting hairs" because if you think Wojo intentionally played Derrick knowing he had better options that would be grounds for firing for me and is just crazy talk from you. If you don't think he did it intentionally, then it is a difference of opinion between you and him....which is fine, I don't agree with you but you can have that opinion and we move on.
I'm coming to the conclusion that you are irrational and forcing facts to meet your narrative. That's fine, but not what I'm on Scoop for.
Based on reading this post, I'm actually questioning your rationality and attempt to force facts to meet your narrative.
You said there isn't an example of Wojo being inflexible - I provided one. You then go on a weird hair spliting endeavor to try to refute the notion that: Wojo CHOSE to be inflexible with regard to changing his minute allocation at PG.
He could have done so at any time. Even with the loss mounting, and continued data showing we are AWFUL with regard to Offensive Efficiency - he refuses to alter his strategy on the offensive end.
I never said Wojo is "intentionally" playing Derrick knowing he had better options. Simply saying Wojo is proving to be inflexible to NOT try something else when it is clear it aint working doing the same thing at PG Buzz tried last year.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 11:24:12 AM
Based on reading this post, I'm actually questioning your rationality and attempt to force facts to meet your narrative.
You said there isn't an example of Wojo being inflexible - I provided one. You then go on a weird hair spliting endeavor to try to refute the notion that: Wojo CHOSE to be inflexible with regard to changing his minute allocation at PG.
He could have done so at any time. Even with the loss mounting, and continued data showing we are AWFUL with regard to Offensive Efficiency - he refuses to alter his strategy on the offensive end.
I never said Wojo is "intentionally" playing Derrick knowing he had better options. Simply saying Wojo is proving to be inflexible to NOT try something else when it is clear it aint working doing the same thing at PG Buzz tried last year.
OK fine you don't think he did it intentionally, so that means it is a difference of opinion, Wojo thinks Derrick is the best option, you don't. Fine. But it doesn't make him inflexible.
What is another example of him being inflexible? Other than Derrick?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 20, 2015, 10:51:40 AM
Duane isn't a PG.
Dawson was in over his head.
Burton playing big minutes at the 4 would have been disastrous.
Juan at the 5 would have been even more disastrous.
This line-up would have allowed a ton of points, been highly TO-prone, had awful offensive efficiency and would have gotten killed in the post and on the boards.
No matter how you slice it, this team needs Derrick to be the PG. It's not ideal but it's better than the alternatives.
Duane isn't a PG? You don't know that! You are guessing. He played PG on HS.
Burton playing big minutes at the 4 would be disastrous? Maybe in some games, but you don't know that. Again a guess.
Juan at the 5--you have that one right.
Many people gave posted that Derrick is a role player/should have his minutes reduced. He can still play PG. You are missing the point. He does not warrant 35 minutes a game. Closer to 20. Any way you slice it!!!
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 11:29:13 AM
OK fine you don't think he did it intentionally, so that means it is a difference of opinion, Wojo thinks Derrick is the best option, you don't. Fine. But it doesn't make him inflexible.
What is another example of him being inflexible? Other than Derrick?
I'm out on this one Eng. I generally find your posts pretty solid and intelligent, but can't find a middle ground with you on this one. I'm just baffled on how you aren't seeing Wojo playing Derrick 30+ at PG WHILE WE CONTINUE TO LOSE AND TUMBLE IN THE OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS - while also having Duane and Carlino on the roster - isn't being inflexible.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 20, 2015, 11:19:18 AM
Agree with 1,2,3, and 8. Not sure how JJJ is 4. He has the worst three point percentage and overall shooting percentage on the team, and also commits the most TO's per 40 mins.
OK, some can be shuffled around. Point is: the eighth of 8 does not deserve 35 minutes per game.
Quote from: Texas Western on February 19, 2015, 10:46:38 PM
Not really I just was supporting Mr. Ners analysis.
I think I've finally figured out who Texas Western is. He is always around to support and protect Mr. Ners, no matter how outlandish some of his opinions are. There is also clearly an unspoken and uncomfortable (for us) love between them.
(http://i.imgur.com/d4dmbqh.jpg)
Quote from: mu03eng on February 20, 2015, 11:29:13 AM
OK fine you don't think he did it intentionally, so that means it is a difference of opinion, Wojo thinks Derrick is the best option, you don't. Fine. But it doesn't make him inflexible.
What is another example of him being inflexible? Other than Derrick?
'03, no matter how hard or what strategy you try this windmill just isn't going to fall.
See, every Ners-dominated thread for the past 15 months.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 09:58:47 AM
You tried to argue that Wojo showed flexibility by NOT starting Derrick (and Duane) to start the season. Please point out where I ever said Duane was injured?? Your point was irrelevant about Wojo NOT starting Derrick - because he was injured. As soon as he was back at full strength - he got 35 minutes against UNO.
And FYI - Games are different entities. And if you ridiculously believe shooting 2-8 on the road against a Top 20 team, and then missing your FIRST shot against UNO (while getting 1 steal and 1 blocked shot in 9 minutes) is grounds for a benching - well - it is pointless to engage in a discussion with you.
Reread my post: I never said you claimed Duane was injured. My initial point didn't have Duane in parentheses, because I was using
both Derrick and Duane as examples of how Wojo isn't "inflexible." You only addressed Derrick but ignored Duane, so I reiterated Duane as a reminder of how you cherry pick in your replies.
Derrick was partially injured, but still able to play (19 minutes against OSU); Duane was healthy. Wojo could have started either or both, but he
chose to start JJJ and Sandy.
As for JJJ starting then getting benched - he'd had an awful game against OSU, but Wojo game him and Sandy the nod against Omaha. He took him out after missing a shot, and may well have intended to give him another chance if Derrick and/or Duane played poorly. But Derick had 17 pts, 3 rebs and 5 asts; while Duane had 15 pts, 2 asts and 2 steals. So JJJ got pulled at the first timeout, but got kept out most of the rest of the way because the guys who had previously been backups stepped up when given the chance.
There have been plenty of opportunities for JJJ to take back his starting spot since then - Derrick's lackluster play, Matt's injury - but he hasn't capitalized on his opportunities. His last two games, he has shot 4-14 against Xavier in 36 minutes, and 1-7 against Creighton in 31 minutes. Plenty of chances, poor results. I suspect his minutes will fade once Matt returns.
You find it pointless to engage in a discussion with me because you refuse to look at the whole picture.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 20, 2015, 01:02:36 PM
Reread my post: I never said you claimed Duane was injured. My initial point didn't have Duane in parentheses, because I was using both Derrick and Duane as examples of how Wojo isn't "inflexible." You only addressed Derrick but ignored Duane, so I reiterated Duane as a reminder of how you cherry pick in your replies.
Derrick was partially injured, but still able to play (19 minutes against OSU); Duane was healthy. Wojo could have started either or both, but he chose to start JJJ and Sandy.
As for JJJ starting then getting benched - he'd had an awful game against OSU, but Wojo game him and Sandy the nod against Omaha. He took him out after missing a shot, and may well have intended to give him another chance if Derrick and/or Duane played poorly. But Derick had 17 pts, 3 rebs and 5 asts; while Duane had 15 pts, 2 asts and 2 steals. So JJJ got pulled at the first timeout, but got kept out most of the rest of the way because the guys who had previously been backups stepped up when given the chance.
There have been plenty of opportunities for JJJ to take back his starting spot since then - Derrick's lackluster play, Matt's injury - but he hasn't capitalized on his opportunities. His last two games, he has shot 4-14 against Xavier in 36 minutes, and 1-7 against Creighton in 31 minutes. Plenty of chances, poor results. I suspect his minutes will fade once Matt returns.
You find it pointless to engage in a discussion with me because you refuse to look at the whole picture.
It's worse than that.
When JJJ has turned it around to have a few good games after his benching @Xavier and taking minutes at largely Sandy's expense, people have brought it up as an example of how Wojo could be flexible.
But Ners doesn't see it that way. Ners doesn't think this was the result of a coaching method getting through to a player. Ners sees it that JJJ finally forced Wojo to bend to his will and play him more minutes.
So put another way - when the player is played spotty minutes due to poor performance, it's because the coach is playing mind games and is "inflexible." But when the player responds, its not due to the coach holding a player to a certain standard and the player meeting that standard. It's due to the player and the player only.
(https://i.imgflip.com/het7r.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/het7r)
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 20, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/het7r.jpg)
(https://imgflip.com/i/het7r)
2015 Meme watch list
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 20, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
It's worse than that.
When JJJ has turned it around to have a few good games after his benching @Xavier and taking minutes at largely Sandy's expense, people have brought it up as an example of how Wojo could be flexible.
But Ners doesn't see it that way. Ners doesn't think this was the result of a coaching method getting through to a player. Ners sees it that JJJ finally forced Wojo to bend to his will and play him more minutes.
So put another way - when the player is played spotty minutes due to poor performance, it's because the coach is playing mind games and is "inflexible." But when the player responds, its not due to the coach holding a player to a certain standard and the player meeting that standard. It's due to the player and the player only.
(https://i.imgflip.com/het7r.jpg)
(https://imgflip.com/i/het7r)
LOL - Except when you have 6 previous games to the Xavier benching where JJJ plays 25+ minutes and his averages are 13/4/3/2, all of a sudden him performing similarly after the Xavier benching were a byproduct of the benching? LOL. But furthermore, after the benching JJJ got a whopping 12, 15, 7, 17 minutes and then 22 in the blowout against Nova. Wojo HAD to play JJJ 30+ once Carlino got hurt - wasn't anything more to it.
The only people with narratives here are you and the other 10 or so people who consistently and blindly back the sh$t out of Buzz last year, Wojo this year, and Derrick these past two seasons.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 02:21:45 PM
The only people with narratives here are you and the other 10 or so people who consistently and blindly back the sh$t out of Buzz last year, Wojo this year, and Derrick these past two seasons.
Here we go again: Everyone that fits this description stand on your head!
Folks, its time to let this go. The shared delusion we have all been sucked into must end.
Goodnight, and may God have mercy on your poor souls.
Quote from: connie on February 20, 2015, 02:26:18 PM
Here we go again: Everyone that fits this description stand on your head!
Folks, its time to let this go. The shared delusion we have all been sucked into must end.
Goodnight, and may God have mercy on your poor souls.
Deleted. I don't want to become another enabler of Ners.
Well, for a while there we were all sort of getting along.
Now it's gone off of the rails.
Happy trails, bros. I don't have anything constructive to add at this point.
Enjoy.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 20, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
It's worse than that.
When JJJ has turned it around to have a few good games after his benching @Xavier and taking minutes at largely Sandy's expense, people have brought it up as an example of how Wojo could be flexible.
But Ners doesn't see it that way. Ners doesn't think this was the result of a coaching method getting through to a player. Ners sees it that JJJ finally forced Wojo to bend to his will and play him more minutes.
So put another way - when the player is played spotty minutes due to poor performance, it's because the coach is playing mind games and is "inflexible." But when the player responds, its not due to the coach holding a player to a certain standard and the player meeting that standard. It's due to the player and the player only.
So what is it when the player is NOT playing spotty minutes and still has a poor performance?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 20, 2015, 05:00:37 PM
So what is it when the player is NOT playing spotty minutes and still has a poor performance?
Our team this year.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 20, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
I'm out on this one Eng. I generally find your posts pretty solid and intelligent, but can't find a middle ground with you on this one. I'm just baffled on how you aren't seeing Wojo playing Derrick 30+ at PG WHILE WE CONTINUE TO LOSE AND TUMBLE IN THE OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS - while also having Duane and Carlino on the roster - isn't being inflexible.
Wojo has been willing to flex every players minutes. Besides Dawson, every player has gotten a game with at least 26 minutes or more. Every player has also had games of 21 minutes or less. If players perform, they play. Its really quite simple. Hell, Wojo is more flexible than Buzz ever was.
That being said, Wojo's unwillingness to try Duane at the point for longer than a literal minute is one decision I don't agree with. He is better off the ball, but he, at least to my untrained eye, has all the necessary skills to at least hold down the point. However, I trust Wojo's experience enough to trust that he is making the right decision.
I know you like to use our record as proof for your points. All our record proves is that what were doing now will lead us to a losing record. That doesn't prove anything about what a different roster would do. A different roster could do worse. A different roster probably would do worse given that they can't take playing time from the roster we're currently running.