Ners is right...

[GooooMarquette]

Here's an important distinction:

A. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because he's AWESOME?

B. Should Derrick get a lot of PT because there aren't better options?

I don't know that anybody has argued "A". It's more about option "B", which really isn't about Derrick, but about the other options available.

To put it another way, I never thought Ousmane Barro was a great player, but he deserved all of the minutes he got because he was the best option on those teams.

You are correct.  For me, the answer is B.  I am not aware of anybody here who has argued A.

Anyone who thinks there are better options hasn't been paying attention...to the fact that Matt clearly needs to play off the ball to get any shots, and that Duane has an abysmal A/TO ratio even without the pressure of being the primary ball handler.  If either became our primary PG, we'd be even worse from 3, and we'd lose more possessions to TOs.  Our defense would also suffer.

I'd love for someone to step up and take about 15 mpg from Derrick...but I don't fault Wojo for not just giving them away.

[NersEllenson]

Clearly Marquette needs a better starting PG than Derrick Wilson.  But JJJ hasn't exactly set the world on fire either so it's hard to say he clearly should be starting.  Look at his last game:

31 min    3 pts  1 reb  3 ast   3 TO  1-7 FG

Hmm, I thought just playing 25 min per game was some sort of magic elixir but I guess not.  JJJ has had a very inconsistent career.  If you look at MU's roster, how many are truly starting caliber for a quality BE team?  Carlino, Du. Wilson, Fischer (average big man but at MU feels like a superstar).  Juan Anderson maybe a fringe starter/6th man.  So let's call it 3.5 starters.  With Carlino out that's 2.5 starters.  Wonder why MU's record is what it is?

Are you serious with this crap?  I never said 25 minutes is a magic elixir - I said that generally speaking play JJJ 25+ and you will get some solid numbers.  Said it doesn't mean he automatically produces those numbers.  He had a bomb of a game against Creighton was awful.

I could just as easily go pick his best game of the year - Arizona State - and make a counter argument. 

Why do you think JJJ has had a very inconsistent career??  Let me offer you a reason - because his role and playing time have been wildly inconsistent.

Meanwhile we have a guy who has had the most consistent role you could ever hope for, playing 33 minutes per game for 2 seasons in a row - and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that generally will lead to 5ppg, 45% FT shooting, no shots attempted other than layups, while our team has its worst offensive efficiency two seasons in a row under his direction.

I'd rather play a guy that in his now 9 games of getting 25+ minutes gives you roughly 11.5ppg, 4 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 steals.  And he's a sophomore.

[willie warrior]

So just to be clear, your assertion is that there are members of this forum who think Derrick Wilson is an awesome basketball player who should play 35+ minutes per game because he's awesome at basketball?

Reading is fundamental. I did not say that. But to answer your question. There are people on this board who think it is fine for Derrick to be playing 35 + minutes per game, because they believe he is deserving of that, or that they have some other rationale, including some that really aren't interested in seeing how Duane does. Some don't want to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. Even though there are other options available to try for the remaining games. And likely, there are probably a rare few who think he is awesome. at basketball. Look at some of the posts: "He is an elite defender"; "He is a great rebounder"," He is a great leader".

I would suggest to you that you that perhaps spend more time critiquing his game rather than trying to put statements out there that I did not make. But it is a great country, and you can spend your time anyway you desire.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Question:  If you are concerned about someone being an effective point guard - Is Derrick?

Now, I agree that stature doesn't mean a guy is a PG - but, when you are playing 3, 6'1" guys along your perimeter, you have such limited length that it does hurt you on the defensive end.

As for "pure point guard," in my view that is largely an irrelevant characteristic.  Was Kemba Walker a pure point?  Shabazz Napier?  Is Brandon Knight for the Bucks?  Just because a guy can score, and does shoot, does not by any means exclude him from being a weapon and good choice to play at PG.  In fact I argue teams with dynamic shooters/scorers at PG become some of the best teams.

I've said many times before Derrick is not a starting caliber PG on a good team.  I also have no problem with a combo guard playing the majority of minutes at point.  The problem is we don't have Kemba Walker or Shabazz Napier on this team.  

IMO, Duane is not ready to play point yet and throwing him out there in that role for the last 6 games isn't going to do any good.  Right now he is a 2G in a PG body.  I'm pretty adamant that most improvement will come during the offseason.  If Wojo wants to groom Duane to play point next season I'm good with that (and it might be necessary based on who he can bring in).  I think Carlino is better suited to play point but our team's offensive options are so limited right now having him in a distributor role which takes away some scoring opportunities probably isn't the best solution either.  

We are a deeply flawed team with no good solutions at this point.  While Derrick is not an effective PG I'm not so sure putting Carlino and Duane at PG and perhaps taking away some of their opportunities to score the ball make us a better team.  Or a less crappy team is probably more accurate.  Unless Derrick gets hurt he is going to play 30 MPG the rest of the way - it's the reality.        

[willie warrior]

You are correct.  For me, the answer is B.  I am not aware of anybody here who has argued A.

Anyone who thinks there are better options hasn't been paying attention...to the fact that Matt clearly needs to play off the ball to get any shots, and that Duane has an abysmal A/TO ratio even without the pressure of being the primary ball handler.  If either became our primary PG, we'd be even worse from 3, and we'd lose more possessions to TOs.  Our defense would also suffer.

I'd love for someone to step up and take about 15 mpg from Derrick...but I don't fault Wojo for not just giving them away.

LMAO. What is the saying? The definition of craziness: Keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now is the time to try something different--and I don't mean playing Luke or Juan at PG as Sultan humorously? stated.

[NersEllenson]

I've said many times before Derrick is not a starting caliber PG on a good team.  I also have no problem with a combo guard playing the majority of minutes at point.  The problem is we don't have Kemba Walker or Shabazz Napier on this team.  

IMO, Duane is not ready to play point yet and throwing him out there in that role for the last 6 games isn't going to do any good.  Right now he is a 2G in a PG body.  I'm pretty adamant that most improvement will come during the offseason.  If Wojo wants to groom Duane to play point next season I'm good with that (and it might be necessary based on who he can bring in).  I think Carlino is better suited to play point but our team's offensive options are so limited right now having him in a distributor role which takes away some scoring opportunities probably isn't the best solution either.  

We are a deeply flawed team with no good solutions at this point.  While Derrick is not an effective PG I'm not so sure putting Carlino and Duane at PG and perhaps taking away some of their opportunities to score the ball make us a better team.  Or a less crappy team is probably more accurate.  Unless Derrick gets hurt he is going to play 30 MPG the rest of the way - it's the reality.        

Here's the rub:  What does Wojo have to lose at this point?

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt this season is over, and if nothing changes, nothing is going to change.

And while it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that a guard combination of Carlino, Duane, JJJ paired with Steve and Luke/Juan and Luke - could lead us on a run through the Big East tourney to the most improbable of improbable NCAA bids - why not change course at this point?

Will Duane getting 6 games of PG experience this year drastically improve him for the role next year?  No.  But, will that experience have value - absolutely.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Here's the rub:  What does Wojo have to lose at this point?

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt this season is over, and if nothing changes, nothing is going to change.

And while it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that a guard combination of Carlino, Duane, JJJ paired with Steve and Luke/Juan and Luke - could lead us on a run through the Big East tourney to the most improbable of improbable NCAA bids - why not change course at this point?

Will Duane getting 6 games of PG experience this year drastically improve him for the role next year?  No.  But, will that experience have value - absolutely.

If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others.  It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not).  It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be.  It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season. 

Duane getting 6 games of PG experience could have positive value.  Or he is not ready to play the position for that many minutes and it could have adverse impact.  The problem is you don't allow for the latter possibility.

There are 6 games left.  Take a deep breath and just start letting it go.  You'll do yourself and this board a whole lot of good.   

[GooooMarquette]

LMAO. What is the saying? The definition of craziness: Keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Now is the time to try something different--and I don't mean playing Luke or Juan at PG as Sultan humorously? stated.

So your continued arguing that MU should bench Derrick means you're crazy?

[GooooMarquette]

If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others.  It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not).  It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be.  It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season. 

Playing for next year also sends the message that Wojo has given up on the season.  It doesn't matter how hopeless the season has become, that isn't a message he should send.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

At this point, I really don't care who gets minutes. We're not going anywhere this season. I see three possible outlooks:

1. Play the underclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Get the younger guys more game time experience. Possibly appease any future players who are upset about playing time.
Con: Probably means worse results this season. Could be seen as screwing over the seniors.

2. Play the upperclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Rewards seniors for all of their hard work. Keeps underclassmen from getting disheartened by being overmatched this season.
Con: Younger guys feel cheated out of playing time. Younger guys miss game time experience.

3. Play to win, regardless of the record.
Pro: Best on the court performance this season. No one feels they are being cheated.
Con: Younger guy miss out on a few minutes of game time experience.

I see logic to all three. Personally, I'd go with the last option. Honestly, it won't make much difference which Wojo takes.

[willie warrior]

So your continued arguing that MU should bench Derrick means you're crazy?

Didn't say that, you did. I did not say bench him I said reduce his minutes. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine that 28-29 last two years is not working. What is your fear? Explain that instead of critiquing every word.

[GooooMarquette]

Didn't say that, you did. I did not say bench him I said reduce his minutes. It does not take a rocket scientist to determine that 28-29 last two years is not working. What is your fear? Explain that instead of critiquing every word.

Where would he sit when he isn't playing?  "Benching" a guy doesn't have to mean 0 mpg.

But since you asked what I fear:  I fear Wojo sending the message that he has quit on the season, which sends the wrong message to players.  I get that the season is done, you get that the season is done - even Wojo gets that the season is done.  But the last thing he needs to do now is take an action that sends that message to current (and potential future) players.

[GooooMarquette]

At this point, I really don't care who gets minutes. We're not going anywhere this season. I see three possible outlooks:

1. Play the underclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Get the younger guys more game time experience. Possibly appease any future players who are upset about playing time.
Con: Probably means worse results this season. Could be seen as screwing over the seniors.

2. Play the upperclassmen max minutes.
Pro: Rewards seniors for all of their hard work. Keeps underclassmen from getting disheartened by being overmatched this season.
Con: Younger guys feel cheated out of playing time. Younger guys miss game time experience.

3. Play to win, regardless of the record.
Pro: Best on the court performance this season. No one feels they are being cheated.
Con: Younger guy miss out on a few minutes of game time experience.

I see logic to all three. Personally, I'd go with the last option. Honestly, it won't make much difference which Wojo takes.

It won't make much difference this season, and it won't make much difference next season.  But if he doesn't choose option #3, it sends a message that we aren't always going to do everything we think we need to do to win every game.  Not a good signal for a first-year coach to send.

[tower912]

The simple elegance of Tower912's signature line gets me through many a post.



Real Warriors don't whine.

To be fair, I have been contemplating changing it to 'ners free since 1/21/15'.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Reading is fundamental. I did not say that. But to answer your question. There are people on this board who think it is fine for Derrick to be playing 35 + minutes per game, because they believe he is deserving of that, or that they have some other rationale, including some that really aren't interested in seeing how Duane does. Some don't want to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. Even though there are other options available to try for the remaining games. And likely, there are probably a rare few who think he is awesome. at basketball. Look at some of the posts: "He is an elite defender"; "He is a great rebounder"," He is a great leader".

I would suggest to you that you that perhaps spend more time critiquing his game rather than trying to put statements out there that I did not make. But it is a great country, and you can spend your time anyway you desire.

Again, thinking Derrick should play 35mpg on this team is not the same as saying Derrick should play 35mpg.

I know it's a small distinction, but it's an important one to make.

Several people here think Derrick is the best out of some bad options. Now you can argue all you want about that. But, please don't claim that people around here are "Derrick slurpers". It's not accurate.

[NotAnAlum]

The other thing this play the newcomers now agreement ignores is what could happen to this team if it appears Wojo and the whole organization have given up and are playing completely for next year.  Things could get much uglier than they are now.  Look at SH, a team that is in a complete tailspin.  You've got guys mouthing off to each other, Gibbs punching a guy in the face.  If we're going to lose lets lose with some dignity.  Do we really want Duane to be forced to bring the ball up against Nova's pressure for the whole game just to give him the experience.  What if it results in Duane having 10 TOs at half and MU being down 40-9 at home.  Is that going to teach Duane anything?  Is that going to make him a better PG next year?  What about playing Sandy and JJ the whole game while Carlino and Derrick get spot minutes.  We've seen these guys play together with little leadership on the floor and its not pretty.  They will get crushed by Nova and maybe even STJ and DePaul, and they will likely get boo-ed.  It serves very little purpose.  I know about half the board hates Buzz but one thing Buzz said that I truly believe was that it doesn't help a guy succeed in the future to be thrown into the fire before he is ready and then to be embarrassed and have his confidence torn down.
Finish the season with the best team we can field.  We have so few players that everyone will get sufficient playing time.  Try to win all the games.  The young guys will get much more valuable being in a close game where if we got lucky they might have a chance to win then they will playing in a blow out.

[willie warrior]

It won't make much difference this season, and it won't make much difference next season.  But if he doesn't choose option #3, it sends a message that we aren't always going to do everything we think we need to do to win every game.  Not a good signal for a first-year coach to send.

Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,

[willie warrior]

If Wojo cuts Derrick's minutes drastically it could be seen in a negative light by current players or others.  It could look as if Derrick is being punished and you want to stay away from creating that stigma (whether accurate or not).  It may also not have that impact but the fact is neither you or I truly know what the full impact would be.  It's just not the same as benching a mediocre RF at the major league level because you want a prospect to get some playing time at the end of a lost season. 

Duane getting 6 games of PG experience could have positive value.  Or he is not ready to play the position for that many minutes and it could have adverse impact.  The problem is you don't allow for the latter possibility.

There are 6 games left.  Take a deep breath and just start letting it go.  You'll do yourself and this board a whole lot of good.   

Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun to not try something else, and they are getting lamer and lamer.

[GooooMarquette]

Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,

No more ridiculous than changing just to say we changed.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun not to try something different,

I'm guessing the coaching staff would be more apt to try something different if (insert back-up player) was killing (insert starter) in practice.

Truthfully, we see about 1/10 of what the coaches do.

If Duane, Steve or Dawson or Burton or the walk-ons want more minutes... I don't think it's tough to figure out HOW to get them. Kick the starter's ass up and down the court in practice everyday.

Can't do that?

Well, then the current starter is going to get the lion's share of the minutes.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Ridiculous. Every excuse under the sun to not try something else, and they are getting lamer and lamer.

The more you post the less you give the impression you know anything about basketball, which is impressive considering you have over 5,300 posts. 

[willie warrior]

The more you post the less you give the impression you know anything about basketball, which is impressive considering you have over 5,300 posts. 

And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.

[tower912]

And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.

To be fair, it took you less than 100 posts to show you know nothing, either.   You've just been around longer.

[NersEllenson]

Where would he sit when he isn't playing?  "Benching" a guy doesn't have to mean 0 mpg.

But since you asked what I fear:  I fear Wojo sending the message that he has quit on the season, which sends the wrong message to players.  I get that the season is done, you get that the season is done - even Wojo gets that the season is done.  But the last thing he needs to do now is take an action that sends that message to current (and potential future) players.

How about this message:  Mediocrity and actually less than even mediocre won't be tolerated and rewarded with max minute playing time.  If you aren't producing on the floor, you aren't going to continue getting max minutes of playing time.

If your play on the floor is not contributing to helping the team win, and the team is NOT winning, you no longer get the benefit of the doubt as the vet.

It is just as dangerous and as big of disservice to the underclassmen largely nailed to the bench behind wildly and perhaps even historically ineffective veterans.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

And it took you less than 100 posts to prove you know nothing about basketball. So there we have each others opinion registered concisely.

The problem is your comprehension needs some work as you clearly didn't understand the point I was making.  But we can leave it at that and think each other are idiots instead of going back and forth.