Ners is right...

[Lighthouse 84]

This is a very accurate assessment of the situation and player.

To which player are you referring?

"Accurate assessment" sounds more like an opinion.  Got anything to back up your statement or strictly conjecture as usual?

[mattyv1908]

To which player are you referring?

"Accurate assessment" sounds more like an opinion.  Got anything to back up your statement or strictly conjecture as usual?

\

And after a good discussion for a few pages TW decides it's time to blow it all up with another of his posts which infers he has intimate knowledge of the situation.

[NersEllenson]

WARNING: LONG POST:

Ners, I'm sorry, but I think you're getting a little off the rails with the speculation again. Do you know Juan Anderson personally? Have you spent hours with him in practice? How about off of the court? Do you know what kind of motivation he responds to? How about Dawson. Do you know him?

I don't mean to sound combative, because after all, most of what we talk about here is speculative... but I think you're getting a little far out there. Let's not build a entire narrative based entirely upon speculation.

Let's at least start with some facts, and then see where we end up.


Let's work off of what we know:

1. Wojo has an established track record of being hyper-competitive. We've all read the articles.

2. The teams mantra is "win everyday". It's easy to believe that Wojo really subscribes to that. I saw it at the Haunted Hoops scrimmage. Wojo wasn't really interested in "putting on a show". He was coaching the guys hard, and reportedly screamed at them afterwards for a lack of focus.

3. The team roster was small (both physical size, and depth) to start the season.

4. 2 players transferred, and 1 player was benched for poor practices.

Now, we don't know how Wojo treated the players who left. I know you THINK you do, but realistically, we just don't. I don't know if he was meeting with Deonte daily to help him, or if he turned a cold shoulder. It's perfectly okay to admit that we don't know. We weren't there, and 6th hand accounts on the internet are far from factual.

Now, that we've established what we know, we can speculate.

WARNING! SPECULATION! I'M NOT PRESENTING THIS AS FACT.

My simple guess is that Wojo is trying to establish a clear culture at MU. Every successful coach and manager does it, especially with younger players and employees. THIS IS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE. PERIOD.

If a player is unhappy with the culture, then ultimately, it might not be a good fit for the player.

In the short run, Wojo would have been wise to say whatever he needed to say to keep Deonte and Dawson. He should have done/said/did whatever it took. It would have helped this team this season.

In the short run, Wojo would have been better to NOT bench JJJ.

However, in the long run, my bet is that Wojo is not interested in adjusting his culture to fit players. He's going to be very clear about how he does business and the expectations. If a player doesn't meet expectations, there will be consequences. If a player ultimately grows unhappy, he will have to work with the coaches to adjust, or simply move on. That's the reality, and that's okay.

I'm disappointed to see Deonte go, he was my favorite player. BUT, I also know that not EVERY coach is a good fit for EVERY player.

If Wojo is good at his job, he'll find the guys that fit what he's trying to accomplish, and he'll get the results we're all hoping for. If he's bad at his job, the school will be a turnstyle with guys constantly coming and going, and Wojo will be out of here in 4 years.

I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.

My take on the bolded:

1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization.  In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.

2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."

3)  Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.

4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture."  When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."

IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player.  However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job.  Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach.  And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate.  My point:  Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court.  Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.

[willie warrior]

But wait, Ners. Buzz was a rigid hardass, and look at all his success.

[NersEllenson]

But wait, Ners. Buzz was a rigid hardass, and look at all his success.

I would say that while Buzz could be a hardass, he had VERY good people skills (to the people he wanted to invest them in), and a great understanding/adaptability of how to best motivate and connect with each of his individual players.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.

My take on the bolded:

1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization.  In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.

2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."

3)  Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.

4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture."  When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."

IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player.  However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job.  Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach.  And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate.  My point:  Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court.  Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.

I don't disagree that a good manager has to know when to step on the gas and when to pull back, but I guess those are the nuances that we don't really know in these specific situations. We don't know the amount of counseling or meetings Wojo had with these guys. Did he meet with Burton everyday? Twice per day? How close were they? What were the points of contention? Burton wasn't a fan of Buzz at the end of last season either. Maybe Burton really needed a change in scenery all together? I don't know. I wasn't there. I won't pretend like I know what happened. Maybe Wojo gave him the cold shoulder. Again, I don't know.

As far as wins this year and immediate results... well, yes and no. Certainly immediate success adds to credibility in the short term. However, it can also be empty calories.

Put it this way: Would the Bears win more games with or without Jay Cutler next year? The answer is arguably "more", but that still doesn't mean they should keep him.

Now, I'm not comparing Jay directly to any MU players, but merely saying that immediate results aren't always the priority for any coach or manager.

The correct culture and the correct mix of talented players will generate success, at least that is what a lot coaches believe. Bo Ryan (love him or hate him) is clearly an example of this. Certainly Bo might have had more short-term success if he adapted to some of his players. However, in the long run, he's created a culture and a system that's sustainable.

Again, my opinion is that Wojo appears to be heading in the same direction. Now, please don't mistake this for a "My way or the highway" approach. I don't suspect that's whats happening. My guess is that Wojo expects players to act and perform in a certain manner (focus, preparation, effort, etc.). If players excel in those areas, then they can maximize their potential. If they are lacking in those areas, the coaching staff is going to make a correction to the behavior.

If in 4 years, MU sucks and has 3 transfers per season, then we can all dance on Wojo's grave, call him "Weirdjo" and watch Deonte dominate the NBA.

However, if in 4 years, MU is competing for a conference title, well, then we might have to say that this season was "worth it" to build the foundation and culture that the coaches want.

Time will tell the tale.

[dgies9156]

I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.
My take on the bolded:
1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization.  In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.
2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."
3)  Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.

4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture."  When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."
IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player.  However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job.  Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach.  And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate.  My point:  Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court.  Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.

Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.

In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.

He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.

I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.

Give him time. Let's see what he can do.

[Texas Western]

I bolded a lot of what I found interesting commentary and what I believe is actually the crux of the debate/differing opinions on the matter with regard to how Wojo has handled this first year on the job.

My take on the bolded:

1) Whenever a new leader takes charge of a situation, he/she needs to build a relationship/bond with the members of the team/organization.  In an organization of only 10, it doesn't take a TON of time to build a bond, and also begin to understand the type of person/personality you are dealing with.

2) As a new leader of a team/organization, you need to do an inventory and assessment of your current team, it's talent, it's limitations, potential, and in this case "shelf life."

3)  Considering, we are in a business of high major basketball, where the players are the lifeblood of your program, and you as the new coach/executive ARE THE ADULT, and are dealing with 18-22 year old ego driven/ego-sensitive kids - My belief is that AN ASTUTE leader of such a team/dynamic, would have a little more malleability and flexibility with regard to what his/her ultimate operating doctrine may be, considering he/she inherited the talent/resources available upon taking the job - and the THIS HOW WE DO THINGS HERE PERIOD approach, may be a bit too narrow minded of approach.

4) Lastly, considering you were hired as the executive to produce in your position, performance in the short run is and should not be disregarded as less important than establishing your "culture."  When "culture" and "leadership" change, don't translate into victories, you begin to lose the buy in/belief of your current team, and perhaps in the future - in your ability to attract replacement talent to your organization to replace the short, 4-year shelf life of your "employee."

IN summary, I agree that not every coach is a good fit for every player.  However, where I disagree is that if an executive/coach in this case IS good at his/her job in taking on the new role - they would get results in the short run, be adaptable, and NOT lose a valuable team member(s) in your first 8 months on the job.  Deonte was arguably the most talented asset in the program of 10 - to lose that kind of asset is a big negative on the scorecard of the new executive/coach.  And to lose that talent largely due to valuing culture over production is a slippery slope for a new coach/executive to navigate.  My point:  Adaptability is a valuable quality for a coach to have - both on the court and off the court.  Rigid, hard ass, my way or the highway old school coaching/management style in this day and age is ineffective.

This is precisely how I see the situation. Well written analysis.

[onepost]

After talking to my guy tonight ... we are lucky to have Wojo here.  I don't care what Ners or Texas Western say because I know what I know.  I'm not trying to be cryptic or stir the pot but we needed Wojo here, plain and simple.

[Texas Western]

\

And after a good discussion for a few pages TW decides it's time to blow it all up with another of his posts which infers he has intimate knowledge of the situation.

Not really I just was supporting Mr. Ners analysis.

[Texas Western]

Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.

In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.

He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.

I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.

Give him time. Let's see what he can do.

A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.

[brandx]

A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.

Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.

[Texas Western]

Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.

Easy to say that now. At the beginning it looked bleak. The guy made chicken salad out of chicken s.#1*

[MUfan12]

Please. He had a full roster with experienced upperclassmen, size, and outstanding shooters. There is no comparison between the two situations.

Not to mention he was on the staff last season.

[Texas Western]

Not to mention he was on the staff last season.

Butler was picked in a tie for 7th in the preseason poll with Us. There were no high expectations for Butler. The coach clearly outperformed every ones expectations. Wojo has clearly under performed. No need to sugar coat it. Wojo has demonstrated he has much growing to do. I won't cut him slack because he actually had talent to work with. Head to head he got out coached by the Butler guy.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Butler was picked in a tie for 7th in the preseason poll with Us. There were no high expectations for Butler. The coach clearly outperformed every ones expectations. Wojo has clearly under performed. No need to sugar coat it. Wojo has demonstrated he has much growing to do. I won't cut him slack because he actually had talent to work with. Head to head he got out coached by the Butler guy.

We were picked near the bottom of the league...we are near the bottom of the league.  How is that "clearly underperforming"?

[mu03eng]

I've seen a lot of recurring "Wojo is a my way or the highway guy" or "Wojo isn't flexible" talk from the Wojo sucks crowd.  First, if Wojo is inflexible what the hell was Buzz?!?!  Second, I know I'm painting with a broad brush but is this some sort of Millennial reaction to someone being in charge??

He doesn't take my feelings and opinions into account when he makes his decision.  He doesn't let me do what I want to do.  He makes us run when we don't want to run.

The man is running a multi-million dollar enterprise involving 18-23 year young adults at a high competitive level....I would hope Wojo has an absolute vision and is following it.  You have to decide what your core operating principles are and stick to them.

Just because he isn't malleable in a way the Wojo sucks crowd wants him to be doesn't mean he isn't.  Give me a specific example of how Wojo refused to flex when he should have flexed

[willie warrior]

Ners, I think you raise a great point. Every new leader in any organization starts with someone else's leave behinds. The ultimate success or failure of a leader is not whether he or she can work within someone else's system, but whether and how they build an infrastructure to fit their needs, their vision and their goals.

In Wojo's case, he was left with a dysfunctional team from the Buzz era. His arrival meant he had to lock in what he had, staunch the damage and begin building his own vision of success. He had to get his own people in place. his own team, meaning assistant coaches who fit his vision and his "system" whatever that turns out to be.

He began with recruiting and locked in on the best player in the region. He built around that while he worked with the train wreck the Hillbilly left him. There were and are good players but they don't fit the pieces.

I'm kinda reminded of the days after Whitey Herzog became manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. He saw a team that everyone ostensibly loved in St. Louis, but the weaknesses were galling. He traded away local heroes and brought back people who in 24 months would lead the Cardinals to be World Champions (for you Cub fans, that is what happens after October 1). I think Wojo is kind of doing the same thing, except you cannot trade college basketball players.

Give him time. Let's see what he can do.

This s awesome. In the last two posts we have learned that one day we might refer to Wojo as Wierdjo, or he may be like Whitey Herzog. So two new nicknames for Wojo could be Wierdjo, or the White Rat!!

[willie warrior]

After talking to my guy tonight ... we are lucky to have Wojo here.  I don't care what Ners or Texas Western say because I know what I know.  I'm not trying to be cryptic or stir the pot but we needed Wojo here, plain and simple.

We all know what we know, or think we know what we think we know. "We are who we thought we would be"

[willie warrior]

A good coach would be able to work with the pieces and win. Look at the guy at Butler and what he has done in what was a worse situation than ours.

You should be ashamed of yourself, comparing Butler's accomplishments to our's. Butler did not even deserve to get into the BEast when it was formed, according to many here. We are way, way higher up the food chain than Butler. Ask us---we will tell you.

[willie warrior]

I've seen a lot of recurring "Wojo is a my way or the highway guy" or "Wojo isn't flexible" talk from the Wojo sucks crowd.  First, if Wojo is inflexible what the hell was Buzz?!?!  Second, I know I'm painting with a broad brush but is this some sort of Millennial reaction to someone being in charge??

He doesn't take my feelings and opinions into account when he makes his decision.  He doesn't let me do what I want to do.  He makes us run when we don't want to run.

The man is running a multi-million dollar enterprise involving 18-23 year young adults at a high competitive level....I would hope Wojo has an absolute vision and is following it.  You have to decide what your core operating principles are and stick to them.

Just because he isn't malleable in a way the Wojo sucks crowd wants him to be doesn't mean he isn't.  Give me a specific example of how Wojo refused to flex when he should have flexed

Let's see....the guy that said Wojo wasn't flexible enough was Ners who also has spoken well of Wojo so that puts him in the "Wojo sucks crowd?" What is great about this board is that we can have it anyway we want it. Wasn.t that in a Foreigner song--or was it Journey?

[willie warrior]

Not to mention he was on the staff last season.

That should not matter. Wojo was on the staff of the greatest program in the country, so those two cancel each other out.

[GooooMarquette]

1.  Wojo is rigid and inflexible.

2.  Wojo learned under a coach who almost always plays man to man, and came in here intending to always play man to man.  After four games, he saw it wasn't working, so he surprised everyone by switching to zone.

3.  Wojo started JJJ and SC3 the first three games, and brought both Derrick and Duane off the bench.  Derrick didn't even get 20 minutes in either of the first two games.  Wojo saw something he didn't like, and soon inserted Derrick and Duane for JJJ and SC3.

Which of those statements is inconsistent with the others?

[WarriorInNYC]

The correct culture and the correct mix of talented players will generate success, at least that is what a lot coaches believe. Bo Ryan (love him or hate him) is clearly an example of this. Certainly Bo might have had more short-term success if he adapted to some of his players. However, in the long run, he's created a culture and a system that's sustrightble.

Ai na?  Hahaha

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ai na?  Hahaha

That. Is. Hilarious.