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Author Topic: The War in Ukraine  (Read 47219 times)

🏀

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #600 on: October 11, 2022, 10:31:11 PM »
I don’t disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

Does the UN have a pre-sorted list of countries worthy to unworthy?

Pakuni

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #601 on: October 11, 2022, 10:35:16 PM »
I don’t disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

If there's a line where supporting Ukraine = nuclear war, I have no idea where it lies.
Any guesses?

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #602 on: October 12, 2022, 03:53:56 AM »
Does the UN have a pre-sorted list of countries worthy to unworthy?

To be honest, there kinda is. If Senegal invaded Gambia, we wouldn’t be this involved.  But we should be involved here. Realpolitik and strategic interests and all.

But if a nuclear war is started it will be started by Russia.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Scoop Snoop

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #603 on: October 12, 2022, 09:35:51 AM »
I don’t disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

Lenny. I DO get your point but two comments:

1) The decision/threat to use nukes is Putin's. His and his alone. If he forces us to stand down, it will happen again and again and again. I think all that standing down will do is kick this down the road and, flush with success on his previous attempt, he will confidently do it repeatedly.

2) China, N. Korea, Iran (will have nukes someday) are all watching very carefully.

There is no question as to how very, very dangerous this all is. I absolutely do not take Putin's nuclear saber rattling lightly.

Wild horses couldn't drag me into either political party, but for very different reasons.

JWags85

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #604 on: October 12, 2022, 10:02:13 AM »
Lenny. I DO get your point but two comments:

1) The decision/threat to use nukes is Putin's. His and his alone. If he forces us to stand down, it will happen again and again and again. I think all that standing down will do is kick this down the road and, flush with success on his previous attempt, he will confidently do it repeatedly.

2) China, N. Korea, Iran (will have nukes someday) are all watching very carefully.

There is no question as to how very, very dangerous this all is. I absolutely do not take Putin's nuclear saber rattling lightly.

Lets see how the pending revolution shakes out first, imo

Scoop Snoop

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #605 on: October 12, 2022, 11:27:00 AM »
Lets see how the pending revolution shakes out first, imo

Good point! But my guess is that new leadership would allow for more modern social norms but continue on their quest to be a nuclear power.
Wild horses couldn't drag me into either political party, but for very different reasons.

Uncle Rico

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #606 on: October 12, 2022, 12:12:16 PM »
King George III and parliament isn’t that bad
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

JWags85

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #607 on: October 12, 2022, 01:13:00 PM »
Good point! But my guess is that new leadership would allow for more modern social norms but continue on their quest to be a nuclear power.

It depends.  If its a leadership and movement to make them more Western and modern and integrated, away form being an isolated Muslim cleric lead power, which needs nukes to assert that unique position, might change things.  Here's to hoping.

Hards Alumni

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #608 on: October 12, 2022, 02:16:22 PM »
I don’t disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

If he tosses a tactical nuke at Ukraine I'm guessing you'd see a broad coalition against it.  No one in the world wants to see nukes used in any form.

Pakuni

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #609 on: October 12, 2022, 02:42:19 PM »
King George III and parliament isn’t that bad

George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelic > King George III and parliament

Plaque Lives Matter!

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #610 on: October 12, 2022, 03:05:38 PM »
Iran is a gorgeous country. Hope that we can visit it and its people safely someday

Scoop Snoop

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #611 on: October 12, 2022, 04:12:18 PM »
It depends.  If its a leadership and movement to make them more Western and modern and integrated, away form being an isolated Muslim cleric lead power, which needs nukes to assert that unique position, might change things.  Here's to hoping.

Here's to hoping you are right and I am wrong.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 04:16:01 PM by Scoop Snoop »
Wild horses couldn't drag me into either political party, but for very different reasons.

#UnleashSean

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #612 on: October 17, 2022, 10:15:39 AM »
If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

Are we still in the mindset that Russia is the good guy after today's bombings of apartment buildings?

NCMUFan

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #613 on: October 17, 2022, 10:32:02 AM »

Jockey

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #614 on: October 17, 2022, 11:52:07 AM »
Are we still in the mindset that Russia is the good guy after today's bombings of apartment buildings?


The Munich Agreement worked so spectacularly in 1938 that the Boozeman's of the world want to see it resurrected. Almost an identical situation as in Sudetenland.

forgetful

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #615 on: October 17, 2022, 12:20:54 PM »
Are we still in the mindset that Russia is the good guy after today's bombings of apartment buildings?

Russia is the bad guy. But things like this are a part of war.

We "accidentally" bombed hospitals and schools in Yugoslavia, hit apartment buildings and homes in Bulgaria (said not our fault because that border was just close to targets in Yugoslavia), bombed a ton of civilian infrastructure in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. Were we the bad guy?

Ukraine has targeted civilian infrastructure, and murdered a young woman while trying to assassinate a political leader. Are they the bad guy?

In my opinion, no.

Russia is the bad guy, because they invaded a sovereign nation without cause, tortured civilians, and are trying to upset global order.

The rest is the ugliness of war and why as a civilization we need to avoid war at all costs.

What I'm more worried about is this becoming a larger conflict, because powers that be are itching for more confrontation. There is an article on Foxnews today with quotes from a right-wing lobbying firm saying that, because Iran is supplying weapons to Russia that makes them direct combatants on the side of Russia. They are insinuating that they should be targeted.

Such talk, if not suppressed, could get other nations to use it as pretext to attack nations like Iran, that is how global conflicts start. Regional conflicts that are used as pretexts by other nations to achieve political goals through more violence.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 12:23:38 PM by forgetful »

MU82

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #616 on: October 18, 2022, 07:47:36 AM »
The Russians are forcefully and repeatedly attacking Ukraine's energy grid, focusing primarily on Kyiv. I hate to say it, but this sounds like smart war strategy.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Hards Alumni

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #617 on: October 18, 2022, 08:17:10 AM »
The Russians are forcefully and repeatedly attacking Ukraine's energy grid, focusing primarily on Kyiv. I hate to say it, but this sounds like smart war strategy.

Of course it is.  I'm surprised they didn't start this months ago.  Unfortunately, they're trying to create more civilian death.  Obviously meant to demoralize the Ukrainian support for the war.

I wonder if Russia understands what the blow back may be.  Asymmetrical warfare inside Russian borders might not be out of the question if Ukraine wants to engage in a tit for tat.

I do have serious concerns what that would mean for an escalation in overall war tactics.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #618 on: October 18, 2022, 08:26:13 AM »
It's a desperate strategy. Instead of toppling Ukraine's government and installing a puppet a la Belarus, they are at best hoping to hold onto what they have now.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

forgetful

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #619 on: October 18, 2022, 09:50:56 AM »
Of course it is.  I'm surprised they didn't start this months ago.  Unfortunately, they're trying to create more civilian death.  Obviously meant to demoralize the Ukrainian support for the war.

I wonder if Russia understands what the blow back may be.  Asymmetrical warfare inside Russian borders might not be out of the question if Ukraine wants to engage in a tit for tat.

I do have serious concerns what that would mean for an escalation in overall war tactics.

I'm pretty sure they already started that. Several attacks on Russian soil by "operatives" including the murder of the young woman who was driving her dad's car (attempted assassination).

jficke13

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #620 on: October 18, 2022, 10:47:21 AM »
I'm pretty sure they already started that. Several attacks on Russian soil by "operatives" including the murder of the young woman who was driving her dad's car (attempted assassination).

"I'm pretty sure they already started that. Several attacks on Russian soil by "operatives" including the murder of the [propogandist and known purveyor of misinformation designed to further the criminal invasion of Ukraine] who was driving her dad's car (attempted assassination)."

FIFY

Also, while it certainly seems reasonable to assume that Ukrainian operatives or interests carried out the hit on Dugina, they haven't gone wide approving of and claiming responsibility or the act. Moscow's official personnel have gone so far as to say that missile strikes from naval platforms hit "all of their targets," which necessarily includes civilian housing.

Not sure why the hairs get split for Ukraine but Moscow gets a big margin of error in your analysis here.

forgetful

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #621 on: October 18, 2022, 12:32:29 PM »
"I'm pretty sure they already started that. Several attacks on Russian soil by "operatives" including the murder of the [propogandist and known purveyor of misinformation designed to further the criminal invasion of Ukraine] who was driving her dad's car (attempted assassination)."

FIFY

Also, while it certainly seems reasonable to assume that Ukrainian operatives or interests carried out the hit on Dugina, they haven't gone wide approving of and claiming responsibility or the act. Moscow's official personnel have gone so far as to say that missile strikes from naval platforms hit "all of their targets," which necessarily includes civilian housing.

Not sure why the hairs get split for Ukraine but Moscow gets a big margin of error in your analysis here.

I didn't give Moscow any margin of error in my analysis. In fact, I never even mentioned them. My previous post makes clear that they are the bad guy.

The post you quoted just says Ukraine has already started asymmetric warfare. And your "FIFY" doesn't change the fact that the act was a murder, and is considered a war crime (assassination).

Wars cause bad actions. Russia has been atrocious and is the bad guy as I made clear. But Ukraine does not have clean hands, not to mention their propensity for establishing bases and conducting strikes from civilian infrastructure.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

Many blame the Palestinians, and defend Israel when the same thing happens there. Those same people turn a blind eye here and blame Russia.

And to be clear, as this is not a defense of anything Russia or Putin. They are without a doubt the bad guys here. They created a conflict by invading a sovereign nation without cause and have conducted many atrocities.

jficke13

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #622 on: October 18, 2022, 12:39:14 PM »
Then why describe someone who is explicitly engaged in information warfare as a "young woman" and not describe her as exactly what she was? Doing so inherently frames the action in a way designed to disparage the Ukrianians. To the extent that you want to provide context to say "Wars cause bad actions. Russia has been atrocious and is the bad guy as I made clear. But Ukraine does not have clean hands" you're doing so in a way that is devoid of some pretty important context.

forgetful

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #623 on: October 19, 2022, 12:07:38 AM »
Then why describe someone who is explicitly engaged in information warfare as a "young woman" and not describe her as exactly what she was? Doing so inherently frames the action in a way designed to disparage the Ukrianians. To the extent that you want to provide context to say "Wars cause bad actions. Russia has been atrocious and is the bad guy as I made clear. But Ukraine does not have clean hands" you're doing so in a way that is devoid of some pretty important context.

Because she was a young woman that was murdered in a war crime. That is just fundamentally true. I'm sorry that is "disparaging the Ukrainians," but then they shouldn't have assassinated someone. There is no justifying that car bombing.

Are you ok with anyone being murdered/assassinated if they partake in disinformation campaigns or propaganda during war time?

Hards Alumni

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Re: The War in Ukraine
« Reply #624 on: October 19, 2022, 06:06:17 AM »
Because she was a young woman that was murdered in a war crime. That is just fundamentally true. I'm sorry that is "disparaging the Ukrainians," but then they shouldn't have assassinated someone. There is no justifying that car bombing.

Are you ok with anyone being murdered/assassinated if they partake in disinformation campaigns or propaganda during war time?

This is the correct take.  While she did suck eggs, she was a non-combatant.  Imagine what would have happened in the US if Iraqi's murdered a US Senator's child like this.

War crimes are war crimes, no matter who commits them.