The War in Ukraine

[Pakuni]

So we're cool with US taxpayer money being used to carry out ISIS style terror bombings that kill innocent civilians?

Narrator: It's not.

[Pakuni]

Its possible to be isolationist without steering into moral relativity oblivion. My unsolicited advice is to put your energies into exploring that.

"The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people."
- MLK

[MUBurrow]

I truly don't understand the responses.  That I am an isolationist?  That there is no reasonable debate to be had on the degree of involvement we should have in Ukraine? Here I thought I was criticizing Boozeman's moral equivalency but I guess I'm on his team for saying that the best path to "we should do less in Ukraine" is not "Ukraine and Putin are the same"?

[MU82]

I truly don't understand the responses.  That I am an isolationist?  That there is no reasonable debate to be had on the degree of involvement we should have in Ukraine? Here I thought I was criticizing Boozeman's moral equivalency but I guess I'm on his team for saying that the best path to "we should do less in Ukraine" is not "Ukraine and Putin are the same"?

FWIW, I think your viewpoints have been mischaracterized here by some.

[Pakuni]

I truly don't understand the responses.  That I am an isolationist?  That there is no reasonable debate to be had on the degree of involvement we should have in Ukraine? Here I thought I was criticizing Boozeman's moral equivalency but I guess I'm on his team for saying that the best path to "we should do less in Ukraine" is not "Ukraine and Putin are the same"?

My point is that isolationism requires, if not moral relativism, a willingness to accept oppression and cruelty.
To be fair, the U.S. cannot intervene in every instance of oppression and cruelty around the world, and there have been far too many instances when we've been on the side of the cruel and oppressive.
But when opposing oppression and cruelty also happens to coincide with our national interests, arguing for isolationism (which, it shall be noted, has never been an effective foreign policy) seems foolish to me.

That said, perhaps the confusion is that while you say you want "reasonable debate," you haven't actually explained WHY you think it's best we do less in Ukraine. What, in your mind, is the upside of bettering Russia's chances of success? How are U.S. interests served in allowing a hostile takeover of a European Democracy (yes, an imperfect one, but still). How are we better off with an emboldened Russia pressed up further against our allies?
I'll hang up listen.

[ATL MU Warrior]

My point is that isolationism requires, if not moral relativism, a willingness to accept oppression and cruelty.
To be fair, the U.S. cannot intervene in every instance of oppression and cruelty around the world, and there have been far too many instances when we've been on the side of the cruel and oppressive.
But when opposing oppression and cruelty also happens to coincide with our national interests, arguing for isolationism (which, it shall be noted, has never been an effective foreign policy) seems foolish to me.

That said, perhaps the confusion is that while you say you want "reasonable debate," you haven't actually explained WHY you think it's best we do less in Ukraine. What, in your mind, is the upside of bettering Russia's chances of success? How are U.S. interests served in allowing a hostile takeover of a European Democracy (yes, an imperfect one, but still). How are we better off with an emboldened Russia pressed up further against our allies?
I'll hang up listen.

MuBurrow never said this

[Pakuni]

MuBurrow never said this

NM

[lawdog77]

Woof. Just highlighting to our friend Boozeman that a person can take the position that we should be doing less in Ukraine without also having to believe that Ukraine is just as bad as Putin's Russia.  That's not actually my personal opinion, but its one that I can engage with.  But hey, I appreciate a kneejerk proof of Godwin's law as much as the next guy, so thanks for that.

[Pakuni]

MuBurrow never said this

If that's true, then I misunderstood and he can let me know.
My, perhaps faulty, assumption is that defending isolationism is, by default, defending doing less in Ukraine.

[The Sultan]

Its possible to be isolationist without steering into moral relativity oblivion. My unsolicited advice is to put your energies into exploring that.

I am all for being isolationist when it is our strategic interest to be isolationist.  Unfortunately, I don't think this is one of those times.

[Boozemon Barro]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

[Uncle Rico]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

You're wrong

[TSmith34, Inc.]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

This is the "We made Putin do it" excuse that is popular in certain circles. The U.S. orchestrated the revolution that kicked a Russian puppet government to the curb by a unanimous vote of the Ukrainian parliament??  OK, sure.

Have you considered that maybe there is a reason Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for a couple of decades? And NATO and the west have floated a peace plan, and it is for Putin to get the unnatural carnal knowledge out. But yeah, your idea of simply giving up 25% of their country in exchange for temporary peace until Putin can regroup and try for the rest of it, that will surely float, just as the U.S. would be happy to give up 25% of its landmass to invaders as long as they promise peace.

[tower912]

I appreciate that BB made a reasonably coherent argument.   I disagree with it.  It ignores that Putin is the one constant.  The other annexations.  The assassinations of political opponents around the world.  The desire to and efforts to destabilize the west.

Putin is a classic strongman dictator.   Idi Amin, Castro, etc with a bigger country and more weapons.   History, assuming there is still a world left to study history, will judge him as such.

[Pakuni]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

This is the Glenn Greenwald playbook.
1. Deny that Russia is aggressive, and then blame the U.S. when Russia proves otherwise.

2. Allege the U.S. orchestrated the Maiden Revolution, based on largely disproven claims.*

3. Argue that U.S. support for Western-style Democracies (even an imperfect one) is the exact same thing as a totalitarian government seizing control of a Democratic country on our border.

4. Claim you care about the Ukrainian people, while ignoring their desire for self-determination and their willingness to fight for it, and instead selling them out to an oppressive dictatorship under which they will lose substantial freedoms.

* To be clear, the U.S. absolutely cheered on the Maiden Revolution. But being a cheerleader is a whole lot different from being the GM and head coach.

[#UnleashSean]

So we're cool with US taxpayer money being used to carry out ISIS style terror bombings that kill innocent civilians?

Russia fired 81 missiles into civilian areas... and you think ukraine is the bad guy?

[#UnleashSean]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

Your end game is the exact formula used by Hitler to gain massive power in Europe. How Gal darn dense are you?

Your advocating for a sovereign country engaged in a proxy war with Russia for 8 years, give up their land to appease Putin's hurt ego?

Really

[#UnleashSean]

This is the Glenn Greenwald playbook.
1. Deny that Russia is aggressive, and then blame the U.S. when Russia proves otherwise.

2. Allege the U.S. orchestrated the Maiden Revolution, based on largely disproven claims.*

3. Argue that U.S. support for Western-style Democracies (even an imperfect one) is the exact same thing as a totalitarian government seizing control of a Democratic country on our border.

4. Claim you care about the Ukrainian people, while ignoring their desire for self-determination and their willingness to fight for it, and instead selling them out to an oppressive dictatorship under which they will lose substantial freedoms.

* To be clear, the U.S. absolutely cheered on the Maiden Revolution. But being a cheerleader is a whole lot different from being the GM and head coach.

Pakuni has it.

I knew their was Russian bots and shills on reddit and news sites. I didn't know we had one on scoop.

[The Sultan]

This is the "We made Putin do it" excuse that is popular in certain circles. The U.S. orchestrated the revolution that kicked a Russian puppet government to the curb by a unanimous vote of the Ukrainian parliament??  OK, sure.

Have you considered that maybe there is a reason Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for a couple of decades? And NATO and the west have floated a peace plan, and it is for Putin to get the unnatural carnal knowledge out. But yeah, your idea of simply giving up 25% of their country in exchange for temporary peace until Putin can regroup and try for the rest of it, that will surely float, just as the U.S. would be happy to give up 25% of its landmass to invaders as long as they promise peace.

Right. And you can't join the military or economic alliance you want to join because your neighbor doesn't like it isn't really a reasonable stance either.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Right. And you can't join the military or economic alliance you want to join because your neighbor doesn't like it isn't really a reasonable stance either.

Yeah, the China/Mexico analogy misses a few key points. Such as:

* The U.S. insisting Mexico is rightfully part of the U.S.
* The U.S. installing a puppet government in Mexico
* The U.S. annexing the Yucatan peninsula
* The U.S. setting up shadow governments in Sanora and Chihuahua and engaging in ongoing fighting there
* The U.S. outright invading from multiple compass points with the stated goal of capturing Mexico City and taking over the government while kidnapping Mexican citizens and transporting them the U.S. as forced labor.

If those things were true, Mexico would be pretty damn justified in wanting to join a military alliance with China.

[MUBurrow]

Hat tip to lawdog and ATL.  And to the extent it distracted from my broader point, I regret using the word "isolationist."  I should have used some more moderate term.  I think we can all agree that any type of radically isolationist policy is pretty much unsupportable since WWII. 

My initial point was that if you're going to advocate a less involved approach in Ukraine, you're going to need to stay away from moral arguments.  Those aren't going to support your conclusion unless you make a mess of it and devolve into meaningless moral relativism.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

"The tankies who claim the Russian invasion is the fault of American imperialism are totally clueless about how many different imperial adventures have played out across the region, and how many different empires have come and gone."

https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-crimea-disconnect

[Hards Alumni]

If we were more "isolationist" this war wouldn't even be happening. We've had four administrations in a row that have taken steps to bring Ukraine into the NATO fold despite loud objections from Russia.

Bush backed membership for Ukraine and Georgia in NATO membership which prompted the invasion of Georgia.

During Obama's tenure we orchestrated the Maiden Revolution which ousted a Russian friendly government and installed one friendly to NATO. Subsequently Russia annexed Crimea. Obama then started providing direct aid to Ukraine, but no weapons. Obama seemed to understand the situation the best when he said the following .
[img]https://ibb.co/W2H2SCZ/[img]

Trump really ramped up things when he started providing direct military aid and weapons to Ukraine and began pressuring European countries to stop importing Russian gas. Hilariously, he was called a Russian puppet while he was doing this.

Now we have Biden and we're in a full blown proxy war with a nuclear power. Tens of thousands dead and we're the closest to nuclear war we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis and I have yet to see really anyone on the NATO side talking about a peaceful resolution. Things just keep escalating back and forth and people are talking about good guys and bad guys like it's a marvel movie.

I have never and still don't understand why Ukraine is so important to the US. I get why it's important to Russia. Try to imagine how the US would react if China announced to the world that they were going to join a military alliance with Mexico, then coordinated a coup to install a Chinese friendly government and started pumping Mexico full of weapons. I don't think that would go over very well.

The truely sick people are those that support the war as a way to weaken Russia while not sacrificing any US lives. Just despicable people who don't give a flying fvck about Ukraine and it's people.

My endgame is a way towards peace. Russua will gain territory in Ukraine and Ukraine will not be joining NATO. Everyone else wants Russia completely out of Ukraine and for Putin to be taken out. If we go down that road I think the nukes will fly. I don't think the sovereignty of Eastern Ukraine is worth a nuclear war.

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet, you're so close.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

[MU82]

I don't disagree with those here who want us to support the Ukrainian war effort.

How far, though, do we go? Is Ukraine worth nuclear war?

At that point, would it even be about Ukraine? If Putin starts using nukes, isn't it about the entire world being endangered by an authoritarian madman who thinks it's ok to use nuclear weapons because his feelings are hurt?