Thoughts and prayers for Oxford, Mi.

[MU82]

A few facts that just emerged (from NYT coverage of arraignment):

PONTIAC, Mich. — Prosecutors in suburban Detroit on Wednesday charged a 15-year-old boy with terrorism and first-degree murder in connection with the deaths of four of his classmates in a shooting spree on Tuesday at Oxford High School.

The boy, Ethan Crumbley, was being charged as an adult, said Karen D. McDonald, the Oakland County prosecutor. In addition to four counts of first-degree murder and one count of terrorism causing death, Mr. Crumbley faces seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

Ms. McDonald said she is also considering charges against the suspect’s parents, who had a face-to-face meeting with school officials on Tuesday — roughly three hours before the shooting — about the suspect’s behavior in the classroom, according to the Oakland County sheriff, Michael Bouchard.

Sheriff Bouchard said the suspect had also met with school officials about concerning behavior on Monday, the day before the shooting. He declined to specify the nature of that behavior, but said law enforcement agencies had not been notified.

The sheriff said the district had no record that the suspect had been bullied at school, and he did not believe specific students were targeted in the attack.

During a video arraignment on Wednesday afternoon, authorities told a judge that investigators had recovered two separate videos from the suspect’s cellphone, which were made the night before the incident. He talked about shooting and killing students the next day at Oxford High. A journal in his backpack also detailed his desire to shoot up the school, authorities said.

Obviously, just because the sheriff said there had been no official record that this kid had been bullied, it doesn't mean he wasn't bullied.

[Hards Alumni]

Obviously, just because the sheriff said there had been no official record that this kid had been bullied, it doesn't mean he wasn't bullied.

Would be nice if the paper added that so you didn't have to.

[MU82]

Some thoughts (warning: some are political):

1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).

2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*

3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!


* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of  the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!

Thank you for this eye-opening and sad post, dg. I feel really badly that your child had to go through that. It must have been a difficult time for your whole family. There's some sickening stuff going on in our country.

I don't pretend to have all the answers to the gun problems, but one thing I'm pretty sure isn't the answer is what the NRA and its paid-for politicians want: more and more and more guns in the hands of more and more and more people. We can do better as a society -- or at least I used to think we could do better. Maybe we just can't, which is saddest of all.

[forgetful]

the prosecutor said she is exploring charges for both parents. The Instagram post seems to insinuate dad may have bought the weapon for the kid.

This definitely looks like a kid who was the victim of bullying in a town like Oxford.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/01/michigan-school-shooting-suspect-identified-as-ethan-crumbley/

I saw they said this, but they will likely have a hard time getting anywhere with it. I might be wrong, because I'm using the below link as a guideline, but Michigan doesn't have laws allowing liability, or regulating access.

https://leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/LAW/Documents/SummaryOfStateChildAccessPreventionLaws.pdf

To clarify, I agree, that they should be held liable, and believe anyone should be held liable when a weapon owned by them is used in a crime, but most states prohibit such responsibilities claiming 2nd amendment protections.

Michigan appears to be such a state.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I am curious why the opposition to legal concealed carry?  In the NC county I live, you need to take a class and then pass it, have your background checked by the Sheriff department for criminal and psychological record and get fingerprinted at the Sheriff's office.  Also, the concealed carry expires in either 4 or 5 years and you must renew through the Sheriff's office.

Really, these requirements should apply to ALL guns, not just CC, and add in an annual licensing fee just like your vehicle. Person wants their 15 gun arsenal? Sure, but you need to pay every year for each and every one or lose it.

[Galway Eagle]

Really, these requirements should apply to ALL guns, not just CC, and add in an annual licensing fee just like your vehicle. Person wants their 15 gun arsenal? Sure, but you need to pay every year for each and every one or lose it.

mandatory liability insurance would be good to.

[tower912]

But you would need to create a structure for testing and an enforcement arm.   I am not saying it is a bad idea, but pay for it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

F*cker had no problem shooting up his school, yet was arrested with his covid mask on.  WTF.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

But you would need to create a structure for testing and an enforcement arm.   I am not saying it is a bad idea, but pay for it.

Yes, and pay for it with the licensing fees.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Now we know why this wonderful dad is refusing to cooperate with the police.

Not sure about Dad, but Mom had a lovely post where she managed to recite every right wing meme imaginable.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Some thoughts (warning: some are political):

1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).

2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*

3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!


* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of  the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!

While I agree with the overall message that bullying is a problem and am sorry for what your child and family when through, I don't agree with laying this at the feet of teachers and administrators and that those folks are primarily to blame.  What about the parents of the kids doing the bullying?  Why are they not teaching their kids basic human respect and kindness?

[Galway Eagle]

Apparently one of the kids that died named Tate was shot trying to disarm the kid. Kid's name should go down as a hero.

[tower912]

There is a petition to name the football stadium after him.

[jesmu84]

Mom's letter/blog post sure is something

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Mom's letter/blog post sure is something

I doubt that the letter has anything to do with the tragedy of this week....but I can't imagine how mortified I would be if my mom referred to herself in a public forum as a "hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting unnatural carnal knowledgeed in the ass and would rather be grabbed by the kitten".

[MU82]

I doubt that the letter has anything to do with the tragedy of this week....but I can't imagine how mortified I would be if my mom referred to herself in a public forum as a "hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting unnatural carnal knowledgeed in the ass and would rather be grabbed by the kitten".

Incredible.

Shocking that a kid raised in that house was totally effed up.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Somehow Scoop's autocorrect made that better

[tower912]

Those are constitutionally protected sentiments.    They may even help with fund raising for his defense.

[dgies9156]

While I agree with the overall message that bullying is a problem and am sorry for what your child and family when through, I don't agree with laying this at the feet of teachers and administrators and that those folks are primarily to blame.  What about the parents of the kids doing the bullying?  Why are they not teaching their kids basic human respect and kindness?

Brother (or Sister) Atl: No where am I suggesting that the teachers and school administrators are responsible for what happened. We're all responsible for our own actions and have the responsibility to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with law and regulation of our country. Period. What I said was that if you don't address certain actions, reactions will occur. In Six Sigma, it's called the Pink "X".

I admit, addressing bullying is not easy to do, as we found out when my daughter was in high school. My daughter loves soccer (she still plays in her mid 20s) and was part of a local soccer league in high school. Several of the "darlings" on her team didn't want her on the team and said so on Facebook. A few went to far as to propose or endorse tripping my daughter in scrimmage so as break her leg and rid themselves of her. There were so-called "popular" girls, many of whom had Catholic educations and parents who were active in our Parish. Given the severity of the threats, we copied a Facebook transcript and contacted the commissioner of the soccer league.

The outcry was ugly and directed at my wife and I!. One idiot mother called my wife and said, "my daughter would never do that," only to be confronted with the Facebook chat transcript. She broke out in a huff and told my wife, "you invaded my daughter's privacy!" My wife reminded the idiot of our responsibility to protect our daughter and that Facebook is a public forum, and the idiot promptly hung up on her. Several other women, concerned about their standing in our community, angrily called my wife or me and screamed at us for taking the matter to the soccer league rather than to them directly (like that would have done any good). Only one of the families of a girl involved stepped up and took disciplinary action against their daughter. That family was classy and the daughter, when confronted with what she was a peripheral part of, showed an immense amount of class in the way she approached and apologized to my daughter.

When the soccer league suspended the four girls who bullied my daughter, three of the the idiot mothers started a whispering campaign aimed at cutting my wife and I down to size in our community. The  incident happened 12 years ago and we're still paying for it in the town we have been a part of for 27 years. This is one of the reasons why my wife is so anxious to get out of town.

I'd do what I did again in a nanosecond because that's what parents do for their children. They protect them!

My point in bringing this up that school administrators admittedly face this every day. Whispering campaigns against schools means fewer tax dollars, no facilities upgrades and fewer teachers. It's easier to sweep bullying -- similar to drug and alcohol abuse -- under the rug and say it doesn't happen than to deal with it. Until someone gets injured or killed, and even then the schools do everything they can to deny any involvement in what clearly is a problem. They act like the Catholic Church did with the pedophilia scandal -- protect the institution at all costs.

A couple of other thoughts on the conversation:

  1) I live in Florida. Concealed carry permits are more prevalent than sunshine. Take a class, get certified and the next thing you know Grandma is packing heat. Why Grandma needs a Glock is beyond me. We have very well trained, well-equipped police officers here who respond quickly. And, our criminal justice system generally works. Yes, crime is a problem in our state, but the probability that Grandma's Glock will ever be fired in a protective capacity is about the same as the 2021 Miami Dolphins winning the Super Bowl.

  2) I won't even get into the stand your ground mentality. All I'll say is it should be changed to "pick your battles carefully..."

  3) Please be careful in judging parents -- any parents. Yes, from what I hear, the Michigan mother's ranting expose her as an idiot. But none of us know what went on in her household nor do we know what mental illnesses the young man might be facing. Time will tell

[Galway Eagle]

Brother (or Sister) Atl: No where am I suggesting that the teachers and school administrators are responsible for what happened. We're all responsible for our own actions and have the responsibility to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with law and regulation of our country. Period. What I said was that if you don't address certain actions, reactions will occur. In Six Sigma, it's called the Pink "X".

I admit, addressing bullying is not easy to do, as we found out when my daughter was in high school. My daughter loves soccer (she still plays in her mid 20s) and was part of a local soccer league in high school. Several of the "darlings" on her team didn't want her on the team and said so on Facebook. A few went to far as to propose or endorse tripping my daughter in scrimmage so as break her leg and rid themselves of her. There were so-called "popular" girls, many of whom had Catholic educations and parents who were active in our Parish. Given the severity of the threats, we copied a Facebook transcript and contacted the commissioner of the soccer league.

The outcry was ugly and directed at my wife and I!. One idiot mother called my wife and said, "my daughter would never do that," only to be confronted with the Facebook chat transcript. She broke out in a huff and told my wife, "you invaded my daughter's privacy!" My wife reminded the idiot of our responsibility to protect our daughter and that Facebook is a public forum, and the idiot promptly hung up on her. Several other women, concerned about their standing in our community, angrily called my wife or me and screamed at us for taking the matter to the soccer league rather than to them directly (like that would have done any good). Only one of the families of a girl involved stepped up and took disciplinary action against their daughter. That family was classy and the daughter, when confronted with what she was a peripheral part of, showed an immense amount of class in the way she approached and apologized to my daughter.

When the soccer league suspended the four girls who bullied my daughter, three of the the idiot mothers started a whispering campaign aimed at cutting my wife and I down to size in our community. The  incident happened 12 years ago and we're still paying for it in the town we have been a part of for 27 years. This is one of the reasons why my wife is so anxious to get out of town.

I'd do what I did again in a nanosecond because that's what parents do for their children. They protect them!

My point in bringing this up that school administrators admittedly face this every day. Whispering campaigns against schools means fewer tax dollars, no facilities upgrades and fewer teachers. It's easier to sweep bullying -- similar to drug and alcohol abuse -- under the rug and say it doesn't happen than to deal with it. Until someone gets injured or killed, and even then the schools do everything they can to deny any involvement in what clearly is a problem. They act like the Catholic Church did with the pedophilia scandal -- protect the institution at all costs.

A couple of other thoughts on the conversation:

  1) I live in Florida. Concealed carry permits are more prevalent than sunshine. Take a class, get certified and the next thing you know Grandma is packing heat. Why Grandma needs a Glock is beyond me. We have very well trained, well-equipped police officers here who respond quickly. And, our criminal justice system generally works. Yes, crime is a problem in our state, but the probability that Grandma's Glock will ever be fired in a protective capacity is about the same as the 2021 Miami Dolphins winning the Super Bowl.

  2) I won't even get into the stand your ground mentality. All I'll say is it should be changed to "pick your battles carefully..."

  3) Please be careful in judging parents -- any parents. Yes, from what I hear, the Michigan mother's ranting expose her as an idiot. But none of us know what went on in her household nor do we know what mental illnesses the young man might be facing. Time will tell

I believe middle school and high school kids inherently look for differences to project their insecurities onto others and boost their egos at a time where most people are awkward. It'd be great if everyone found their niche and excelled at it and was accepted. Sadly, that's not the case and even up to freshmen year of college I knew there were some lesser forms of bullying going on in my wing in OD. I don't know if the problem of back talk & such will ever be solved so much as putting out more things so kids can find their group will help.

[Galway Eagle]

What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?

[pbiflyer]

What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?

If it were Florida he could claim stand his ground. Feared for his life. Does Michigan have something similar?

[Galway Eagle]

If it were Florida he could claim stand his ground. Feared for his life. Does Michigan have something similar?

Feared the entire school was going to kill him after making video threats off campus? Even in Florida that'd be a tough sell imo

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?

My guess is that they will eventually file an insanity defense, which doesn't have to happen immediately, but at some deadline before the trial begins.

[Pakuni]

What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?

The defense doesn't have to prove anything, but entering a not guilty plea at arraignment is standard procedure. I imagine if there is any actual defense here, it's going to be insanity. And I imagine the defense will use the threat of a trial in plea negotiations.

FWIW, although he's being charged as an adult, he's still a juvenile. The Supreme Court has ruled that life, or effective life, sentences for juveniles are unconstitutional.