MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on November 30, 2021, 03:05:57 PM
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Another sad reminder that tragedies happen all the time.
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Parents are refusing to cooperate with police. Shocking that their little monster turned out to be a mass murderer.
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It is their constitutional right. Patience.
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It is their constitutional right. Patience.
Yes, I understand that and I am not saying that they should abandon him. He is their son, after all. But they need to understand that there are several families suffering dearly because of the actions of their kid.
But I think in society, in general, no one wants to take responsibility for their actions (or the actions of their kids).
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Jockey, I get the frustration. I understand the optics. It has been 6 hours. Process.
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It is their constitutional right. Patience.
if only the killer had driven into the victims, right? Then we could just blame the car.
It is not a "constitutional right" for a 15-year-old to have a gun in MI without parental supervision. The only time I could legally use my gun as a kid was at a range with my dad or hunting with a valid license, again with my dad present.
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/minimum-age-to-purchase-possess-in-michigan/
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It is their constitutional right to lawyer up.
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Guess we all need to pray harder so this doesn't happen
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Guess we all need to pray harder so this doesn't happen
That, and get everybody guns. If all of the students and teachers at the school had been packin', only good would have come of it.
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But I think in society, in general, no one wants to take responsibility for their actions (or the actions of their kids).
Jockey
Sadly you are spot on.
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It is not a "constitutional right" for a 15-year-old to have a gun in MI without parental supervision. The only time I could legally use my gun as a kid was at a range with my dad or hunting with a valid license, again with my dad present.
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/minimum-age-to-purchase-possess-in-michigan/
I agree. Kids who illegally possess guns, and then use those weapons to kill others, should be held legally responsible for the deaths of others.
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I agree. Kids who illegally possess guns, and then use those weapons to kill others, should be held legally responsible for the deaths of others.
I see what you did there.
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Gun was a black Friday purchase. Young man spent some time over the weekend shooting with it and posting pictures of himself with it.
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Jockey, I get the frustration. I understand the optics. It has been 6 hours. Process.
;D
Yes. I tell myself exactly that all the time. I just haven’t convinced me yet.
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Guess we all need to pray harder so this doesn't happen
...but not in school.
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...but not in school.
Good
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...but not in school.
Kids can pray in school all they want. They can even do so in groups!
But if you think the answer to fix this is "compel students to engage in prayer," you are really naive.
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Another sad reminder that tragedies happen all the time.
💯🙏
Always tragic and heartbreaking when things like this and any senseless tragedy involving loss of innocent lives happen but especially difficult to wrap my head around how a family can cope with it during the holiday season.
What should be a time of year spent celebrating will forever be changed for so many.
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Gun was a black Friday purchase. Young man spent some time over the weekend shooting with it and posting pictures of himself with it.
Have they released who purchased the gun? Haven’t seen it reported.
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Have they released who purchased the gun? Haven’t seen it reported.
From the AP:
The boy’s father on Friday bought the 9 mm Sig Sauer used in the shooting, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said. He didn’t know why the man bought the semi-automatic handgun, which his son had been posting pictures of and practicing shooting, Bouchard said.
At least daddy got the gun on sale, so there's that.
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Another sad day in America. There really are no words that can be said that explains the sadness of these events.
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From the AP:
The boy’s father on Friday bought the 9 mm Sig Sauer used in the shooting, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said. He didn’t know why the man bought the semi-automatic handgun, which his son had been posting pictures of and practicing shooting, Bouchard said.
At least daddy got the gun on sale, so there's that.
Not good 🤦♂️
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From the AP:
The boy’s father on Friday bought the 9 mm Sig Sauer used in the shooting, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said. He didn’t know why the man bought the semi-automatic handgun, which his son had been posting pictures of and practicing shooting, Bouchard said.
At least daddy got the gun on sale, so there's that.
I should check out that sale.
Dad will be held liable, as he should be. Is a safe that hard to get? My dad's safe is freaking impenetrable and only he knows the combo. My buddy's safe has two locks, one a fingerprint lock and another a key lock that has a delay in opening. Reports are the kid was bullied. He likely had mental problems too. If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
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If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
Yes, there are rampant mass stabbings in high schools.
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819580358
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If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
It it wasn't a gun, those three four kids would probably still be alive.
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I should check out that sale.
Dad will be held liable, as he should be. Is a safe that hard to get? My dad's safe is freaking impenetrable and only he knows the combo. My buddy's safe has two locks, one a fingerprint lock and another a key lock that has a delay in opening. Reports are the kid was bullied. He likely had mental problems too. If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
As far as I'm aware, Michigan has no laws regarding limiting access of guns to minors, and does not have any laws allowing individuals to be held liable if a weapon is used to commit a crime and was even negligently stored.
So highly unlikely the family will be held liable, it would require a break from Michigan laws.
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Yes, there are rampant mass stabbings in high schools.
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819580358
I was in Europe the past week, and saw an article talking about the startling rise in stabbing homicides in the UK this past year, specifically among teens in London.
Then I read further, and the sheer number difference is startling.
https://inews.co.uk/news/teenager-homicides-2021-28-victims-worst-year-for-such-killings-since-2008-1323812
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If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
Yes usually the socially awkward easily bullied kid is able to overpower adults and varsity lettermen when they have a handheld weapon, also easily able to stab them in the back when they run away.
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Kid's name was Ethan Crumbley do your own search but pretty sure all the social media accounts are down already.
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We're not a serious country.
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From the AP:
The boy’s father on Friday bought the 9 mm Sig Sauer used in the shooting, Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said. He didn’t know why the man bought the semi-automatic handgun, which his son had been posting pictures of and practicing shooting, Bouchard said.
At least daddy got the gun on sale, so there's that.
Now we know why this wonderful dad is refusing to cooperate with the police.
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Now we know why this wonderful dad is refusing to cooperate with the police.
Dad buys a gun on Friday and his son uses the gun to shoot up a school the very next school day. An inconceivable level of negligence. Imo, the blood is just as much on the dad’s hands as it is the kid’s.
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Dad buys a gun on Friday and his son uses the gun to shoot up a school the very next school day. An inconceivable level of negligence. Imo, the blood is just as much on the dad’s hands as it is the kid’s.
So the shooting occurred on Saturday?!
#FakeNews #Lies
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I was in Europe the past week, and saw an article talking about the startling rise in stabbing homicides in the UK this past year, specifically among teens in London.
Then I read further, and the sheer number difference is startling.
https://inews.co.uk/news/teenager-homicides-2021-28-victims-worst-year-for-such-killings-since-2008-1323812
Unfortunately, 28 a year doesn't phase me after the growing up in the USA
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So the shooting occurred on Saturday?!
#FakeNews #Lies
I'm guessing you misread his post... he clearly said school day. A classy person wouldn't then call you a liar for an innocent mistake so I won't despite the obvious irony.
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I'm guessing you misread his post... he clearly said school day. A classy person wouldn't then call you a liar for an innocent mistake so I won't despite the obvious irony.
You fell into the trap!
I do wonder, though, how a jump to conclusion that inconceivable negligence/ blood on hands exists based on known (unknown) information.
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You fell into the trap!
I do wonder, though, how a jump to conclusion that inconceivable negligence/ blood on hands exists based on known (unknown) information.
Oh no I'm trapped by the oh so clever JB someone help me! Seriously what trap? He said school day, you said Saturday, you called him liar. There's no "trap" except you misreading his post.
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Unfortunately, 28 a year doesn't phase me after the growing up in the USA
Thats sort of what I meant. Its a legitimately troubling number, but pales in comparison to gun deaths in the US and any major metro.
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A fourth student has died.
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I should check out that sale.
Dad will be held liable, as he should be. Is a safe that hard to get? My dad's safe is freaking impenetrable and only he knows the combo. My buddy's safe has two locks, one a fingerprint lock and another a key lock that has a delay in opening. Reports are the kid was bullied. He likely had mental problems too. If it wasn't a gun he would have done something else.
Wow ... we almost agreed on a serious issue ... until your last line.
I'm sure that if he didn't have high-powered weaponry that could fire 1,000 rounds in minutes, the Vegas shooter would have nunchucked or stabbed or suffocated dozens of people to death back in 2017, too.
But yes, this kid's dad has blood on his hands.
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We had a kid get arrested with a gun at our high school a few weeks ago. He was more of a gang member with a gun than psycho killer with a gun to shoot up a school, but still had a .40 cal in his waistband.
The sad thing is that my wife and I both said that it didn't really faze us, which is a scary level of desensitization. (The eldest son is a freshman.)
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My own freshman son sighed and shook his head. We reiterated that if you see something say something. He reminded us he stays off social media for this exact reason.
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The shooter will be charged as an adult.
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*
3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!
* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
I am curious why the opposition to legal concealed carry? In the NC county I live, you need to take a class and then pass it, have your background checked by the Sheriff department for criminal and psychological record and get fingerprinted at the Sheriff's office. Also, the concealed carry expires in either 4 or 5 years and you must renew through the Sheriff's office.
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*
3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!
* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!
This is a well-thought post and has no place in the discussion.
Agree on the gun culture of this country. My parents and sister and brother-in-law are gun nuts. My dad has so many guns, I ought to make a small fortune selling them after he passes.
The bullying epidemic isn’t handled well by school administrators. Having once been married to a teacher, it was appalling how administrators were more concerned with optics and protecting certain kids. It’s a real issue inside schools
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Watching the arraignment live. In recess now.
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*
3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!
* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!
Amen on the bullying. Way too much of that, and the school admins do very little.
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As far as I'm aware, Michigan has no laws regarding limiting access of guns to minors, and does not have any laws allowing individuals to be held liable if a weapon is used to commit a crime and was even negligently stored.
So highly unlikely the family will be held liable, it would require a break from Michigan laws.
the prosecutor said she is exploring charges for both parents. The Instagram post seems to insinuate dad may have bought the weapon for the kid.
This definitely looks like a kid who was the victim of bullying in a town like Oxford.
https://nypost.com/2021/12/01/michigan-school-shooting-suspect-identified-as-ethan-crumbley/
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Amen on bullying.
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A few facts that just emerged (from NYT coverage of arraignment):
PONTIAC, Mich. — Prosecutors in suburban Detroit on Wednesday charged a 15-year-old boy with terrorism and first-degree murder in connection with the deaths of four of his classmates in a shooting spree on Tuesday at Oxford High School.
The boy, Ethan Crumbley, was being charged as an adult, said Karen D. McDonald, the Oakland County prosecutor. In addition to four counts of first-degree murder and one count of terrorism causing death, Mr. Crumbley faces seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.
Ms. McDonald said she is also considering charges against the suspect’s parents, who had a face-to-face meeting with school officials on Tuesday — roughly three hours before the shooting — about the suspect’s behavior in the classroom, according to the Oakland County sheriff, Michael Bouchard.
Sheriff Bouchard said the suspect had also met with school officials about concerning behavior on Monday, the day before the shooting. He declined to specify the nature of that behavior, but said law enforcement agencies had not been notified.
The sheriff said the district had no record that the suspect had been bullied at school, and he did not believe specific students were targeted in the attack.
During a video arraignment on Wednesday afternoon, authorities told a judge that investigators had recovered two separate videos from the suspect’s cellphone, which were made the night before the incident. He talked about shooting and killing students the next day at Oxford High. A journal in his backpack also detailed his desire to shoot up the school, authorities said.
Obviously, just because the sheriff said there had been no official record that this kid had been bullied, it doesn't mean he wasn't bullied.
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Obviously, just because the sheriff said there had been no official record that this kid had been bullied, it doesn't mean he wasn't bullied.
Would be nice if the paper added that so you didn't have to.
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*
3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!
* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!
Thank you for this eye-opening and sad post, dg. I feel really badly that your child had to go through that. It must have been a difficult time for your whole family. There's some sickening stuff going on in our country.
I don't pretend to have all the answers to the gun problems, but one thing I'm pretty sure isn't the answer is what the NRA and its paid-for politicians want: more and more and more guns in the hands of more and more and more people. We can do better as a society -- or at least I used to think we could do better. Maybe we just can't, which is saddest of all.
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the prosecutor said she is exploring charges for both parents. The Instagram post seems to insinuate dad may have bought the weapon for the kid.
This definitely looks like a kid who was the victim of bullying in a town like Oxford.
https://nypost.com/2021/12/01/michigan-school-shooting-suspect-identified-as-ethan-crumbley/
I saw they said this, but they will likely have a hard time getting anywhere with it. I might be wrong, because I'm using the below link as a guideline, but Michigan doesn't have laws allowing liability, or regulating access.
https://leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/LAW/Documents/SummaryOfStateChildAccessPreventionLaws.pdf (https://leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/LAW/Documents/SummaryOfStateChildAccessPreventionLaws.pdf)
To clarify, I agree, that they should be held liable, and believe anyone should be held liable when a weapon owned by them is used in a crime, but most states prohibit such responsibilities claiming 2nd amendment protections.
Michigan appears to be such a state.
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I am curious why the opposition to legal concealed carry? In the NC county I live, you need to take a class and then pass it, have your background checked by the Sheriff department for criminal and psychological record and get fingerprinted at the Sheriff's office. Also, the concealed carry expires in either 4 or 5 years and you must renew through the Sheriff's office.
Really, these requirements should apply to ALL guns, not just CC, and add in an annual licensing fee just like your vehicle. Person wants their 15 gun arsenal? Sure, but you need to pay every year for each and every one or lose it.
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Really, these requirements should apply to ALL guns, not just CC, and add in an annual licensing fee just like your vehicle. Person wants their 15 gun arsenal? Sure, but you need to pay every year for each and every one or lose it.
mandatory liability insurance would be good to.
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But you would need to create a structure for testing and an enforcement arm. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but pay for it.
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F*cker had no problem shooting up his school, yet was arrested with his covid mask on. WTF.
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But you would need to create a structure for testing and an enforcement arm. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but pay for it.
Yes, and pay for it with the licensing fees.
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Now we know why this wonderful dad is refusing to cooperate with the police.
Not sure about Dad, but Mom had a lovely post where she managed to recite every right wing meme imaginable.
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Some thoughts (warning: some are political):
1) Until we find a way to better control handguns and automatic weapons, these kinds of incidents will become all too familiar parts of American Life. I get the need for hunting and for protection, but the gun culture in this country is out of control. Way too many guns that don't belong in circulation are in way too many hands belonging to people who shouldn't have 'em. We need to something and we need to begin with no more stand your ground and concealed carry (and, hint, I'm a moderate conservative -- some would call it a realist).
2) Yes teachers, yes parents, yes school administrators, BULLYING HAPPENS! You can't ignore it and hope it goes away. Nor can you do what our school district did -- create a victims class to teach victims to be good victims (which means, not incidentally, not fighting back or creating headaches for lazy and incompetent teachers). Many of the bullies in schools are sons and daughters of prominent citizens and the victims tend to come from less prestigious social classes. There's no excuse for killing and wounding people but if you ignore a problem long enough, crap like this is going to happen. And for all you teachers out there who think I'm nuts, maybe you are lucky but more than likely you're ignorant of the problem.*
3) We need to catch psychological problems in our schools early. You who spend seven to eight hours a day with our youth in school can't tell me you can't spot some folks who need help. If you can't, then guess what, you need help!
* Full Disclosure -- One of my children was bullied badly. That child fired back and wouldn't take it. When some of the popular children started a whispering campaign about my child's sexuality, the administration dismissed it and said, "oh they all talk that way." My response: "If national statistics are to be believed, up to 10 percent of your student body is homosexual. And, the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian teens is suicide. Do you want that on your conscious?" Also, while they tended to laugh off my child's concerns, the Administration of the school was far less willing to do so when the students began spreading rumors about the teachers.!
While I agree with the overall message that bullying is a problem and am sorry for what your child and family when through, I don't agree with laying this at the feet of teachers and administrators and that those folks are primarily to blame. What about the parents of the kids doing the bullying? Why are they not teaching their kids basic human respect and kindness?
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Apparently one of the kids that died named Tate was shot trying to disarm the kid. Kid's name should go down as a hero.
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There is a petition to name the football stadium after him.
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Mom's letter/blog post sure is something
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Mom's letter/blog post sure is something
I doubt that the letter has anything to do with the tragedy of this week....but I can't imagine how mortified I would be if my mom referred to herself in a public forum as a "hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting unnatural carnal knowledgeed in the ass and would rather be grabbed by the kitten".
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I doubt that the letter has anything to do with the tragedy of this week....but I can't imagine how mortified I would be if my mom referred to herself in a public forum as a "hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting unnatural carnal knowledgeed in the ass and would rather be grabbed by the kitten".
Incredible.
Shocking that a kid raised in that house was totally effed up.
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Somehow Scoop's autocorrect made that better
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Those are constitutionally protected sentiments. They may even help with fund raising for his defense.
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While I agree with the overall message that bullying is a problem and am sorry for what your child and family when through, I don't agree with laying this at the feet of teachers and administrators and that those folks are primarily to blame. What about the parents of the kids doing the bullying? Why are they not teaching their kids basic human respect and kindness?
Brother (or Sister) Atl: No where am I suggesting that the teachers and school administrators are responsible for what happened. We're all responsible for our own actions and have the responsibility to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with law and regulation of our country. Period. What I said was that if you don't address certain actions, reactions will occur. In Six Sigma, it's called the Pink "X".
I admit, addressing bullying is not easy to do, as we found out when my daughter was in high school. My daughter loves soccer (she still plays in her mid 20s) and was part of a local soccer league in high school. Several of the "darlings" on her team didn't want her on the team and said so on Facebook. A few went to far as to propose or endorse tripping my daughter in scrimmage so as break her leg and rid themselves of her. There were so-called "popular" girls, many of whom had Catholic educations and parents who were active in our Parish. Given the severity of the threats, we copied a Facebook transcript and contacted the commissioner of the soccer league.
The outcry was ugly and directed at my wife and I!. One idiot mother called my wife and said, "my daughter would never do that," only to be confronted with the Facebook chat transcript. She broke out in a huff and told my wife, "you invaded my daughter's privacy!" My wife reminded the idiot of our responsibility to protect our daughter and that Facebook is a public forum, and the idiot promptly hung up on her. Several other women, concerned about their standing in our community, angrily called my wife or me and screamed at us for taking the matter to the soccer league rather than to them directly (like that would have done any good). Only one of the families of a girl involved stepped up and took disciplinary action against their daughter. That family was classy and the daughter, when confronted with what she was a peripheral part of, showed an immense amount of class in the way she approached and apologized to my daughter.
When the soccer league suspended the four girls who bullied my daughter, three of the the idiot mothers started a whispering campaign aimed at cutting my wife and I down to size in our community. The incident happened 12 years ago and we're still paying for it in the town we have been a part of for 27 years. This is one of the reasons why my wife is so anxious to get out of town.
I'd do what I did again in a nanosecond because that's what parents do for their children. They protect them!
My point in bringing this up that school administrators admittedly face this every day. Whispering campaigns against schools means fewer tax dollars, no facilities upgrades and fewer teachers. It's easier to sweep bullying -- similar to drug and alcohol abuse -- under the rug and say it doesn't happen than to deal with it. Until someone gets injured or killed, and even then the schools do everything they can to deny any involvement in what clearly is a problem. They act like the Catholic Church did with the pedophilia scandal -- protect the institution at all costs.
A couple of other thoughts on the conversation:
1) I live in Florida. Concealed carry permits are more prevalent than sunshine. Take a class, get certified and the next thing you know Grandma is packing heat. Why Grandma needs a Glock is beyond me. We have very well trained, well-equipped police officers here who respond quickly. And, our criminal justice system generally works. Yes, crime is a problem in our state, but the probability that Grandma's Glock will ever be fired in a protective capacity is about the same as the 2021 Miami Dolphins winning the Super Bowl.
2) I won't even get into the stand your ground mentality. All I'll say is it should be changed to "pick your battles carefully..."
3) Please be careful in judging parents -- any parents. Yes, from what I hear, the Michigan mother's ranting expose her as an idiot. But none of us know what went on in her household nor do we know what mental illnesses the young man might be facing. Time will tell
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Brother (or Sister) Atl: No where am I suggesting that the teachers and school administrators are responsible for what happened. We're all responsible for our own actions and have the responsibility to conduct ourselves in a manner consistent with law and regulation of our country. Period. What I said was that if you don't address certain actions, reactions will occur. In Six Sigma, it's called the Pink "X".
I admit, addressing bullying is not easy to do, as we found out when my daughter was in high school. My daughter loves soccer (she still plays in her mid 20s) and was part of a local soccer league in high school. Several of the "darlings" on her team didn't want her on the team and said so on Facebook. A few went to far as to propose or endorse tripping my daughter in scrimmage so as break her leg and rid themselves of her. There were so-called "popular" girls, many of whom had Catholic educations and parents who were active in our Parish. Given the severity of the threats, we copied a Facebook transcript and contacted the commissioner of the soccer league.
The outcry was ugly and directed at my wife and I!. One idiot mother called my wife and said, "my daughter would never do that," only to be confronted with the Facebook chat transcript. She broke out in a huff and told my wife, "you invaded my daughter's privacy!" My wife reminded the idiot of our responsibility to protect our daughter and that Facebook is a public forum, and the idiot promptly hung up on her. Several other women, concerned about their standing in our community, angrily called my wife or me and screamed at us for taking the matter to the soccer league rather than to them directly (like that would have done any good). Only one of the families of a girl involved stepped up and took disciplinary action against their daughter. That family was classy and the daughter, when confronted with what she was a peripheral part of, showed an immense amount of class in the way she approached and apologized to my daughter.
When the soccer league suspended the four girls who bullied my daughter, three of the the idiot mothers started a whispering campaign aimed at cutting my wife and I down to size in our community. The incident happened 12 years ago and we're still paying for it in the town we have been a part of for 27 years. This is one of the reasons why my wife is so anxious to get out of town.
I'd do what I did again in a nanosecond because that's what parents do for their children. They protect them!
My point in bringing this up that school administrators admittedly face this every day. Whispering campaigns against schools means fewer tax dollars, no facilities upgrades and fewer teachers. It's easier to sweep bullying -- similar to drug and alcohol abuse -- under the rug and say it doesn't happen than to deal with it. Until someone gets injured or killed, and even then the schools do everything they can to deny any involvement in what clearly is a problem. They act like the Catholic Church did with the pedophilia scandal -- protect the institution at all costs.
A couple of other thoughts on the conversation:
1) I live in Florida. Concealed carry permits are more prevalent than sunshine. Take a class, get certified and the next thing you know Grandma is packing heat. Why Grandma needs a Glock is beyond me. We have very well trained, well-equipped police officers here who respond quickly. And, our criminal justice system generally works. Yes, crime is a problem in our state, but the probability that Grandma's Glock will ever be fired in a protective capacity is about the same as the 2021 Miami Dolphins winning the Super Bowl.
2) I won't even get into the stand your ground mentality. All I'll say is it should be changed to "pick your battles carefully..."
3) Please be careful in judging parents -- any parents. Yes, from what I hear, the Michigan mother's ranting expose her as an idiot. But none of us know what went on in her household nor do we know what mental illnesses the young man might be facing. Time will tell
I believe middle school and high school kids inherently look for differences to project their insecurities onto others and boost their egos at a time where most people are awkward. It'd be great if everyone found their niche and excelled at it and was accepted. Sadly, that's not the case and even up to freshmen year of college I knew there were some lesser forms of bullying going on in my wing in OD. I don't know if the problem of back talk & such will ever be solved so much as putting out more things so kids can find their group will help.
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What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?
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What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?
If it were Florida he could claim stand his ground. Feared for his life. Does Michigan have something similar?
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If it were Florida he could claim stand his ground. Feared for his life. Does Michigan have something similar?
Feared the entire school was going to kill him after making video threats off campus? Even in Florida that'd be a tough sell imo
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What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?
My guess is that they will eventually file an insanity defense, which doesn't have to happen immediately, but at some deadline before the trial begins.
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What chance does the defense have to prove a not guilty plea? I mean I imagine that they have some shots on camera, a million witnesses, the fact that it's his gun, etc etc. Could someone elaborate possible defenses?
The defense doesn't have to prove anything, but entering a not guilty plea at arraignment is standard procedure. I imagine if there is any actual defense here, it's going to be insanity. And I imagine the defense will use the threat of a trial in plea negotiations.
FWIW, although he's being charged as an adult, he's still a juvenile. The Supreme Court has ruled that life, or effective life, sentences for juveniles are unconstitutional.
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I believe middle school and high school kids inherently look for differences to project their insecurities onto others and boost their egos at a time where most people are awkward. It'd be great if everyone found their niche and excelled at it and was accepted. Sadly, that's not the case and even up to freshmen year of college I knew there were some lesser forms of bullying going on in my wing in OD. I don't know if the problem of back talk & such will ever be solved so much as putting out more things so kids can find their group will help.
Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.
The children mimic the behavior of their parents. If the parents don't respect everyone within a community, neither will the children. They'll discriminate in one form or another, be it on gender, perceived socio-economic class, looks, dress, even race or national origin. In the 27 years we lived in our community, we saw this time and time again. Because the parents are asses doesn't automatically mean the children are asses, but one is a pretty good predictor of the other.
By contrast, if the parents are open minded, respectful and friendly and quick to accept, there's a good probability the children won't be bullies. Again, no guarantee, but good behavior and thoughtfulness begets good behavior and thoughtfulness.
It's up to the teachers to understand what's happening in the classroom and react to it.
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Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.
The children mimic the behavior of their parents. If the parents don't respect everyone within a community, neither will the children. They'll discriminate in one form or another, be it on gender, perceived socio-economic class, looks, dress, even race or national origin. In the 27 years we lived in our community, we saw this time and time again. Because the parents are asses doesn't automatically mean the children are asses, but one is a pretty good predictor of the other.
By contrast, if the parents are open minded, respectful and friendly and quick to accept, there's a good probability the children won't be bullies. Again, no guarantee, but good behavior and thoughtfulness begets good behavior and thoughtfulness.
It's up to the teachers to understand what's happening in the classroom and react to it.
Fair enough i disagree based on my own personal experience but I respect your logic and conclusion based on yours.
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It is a weak defense, but if there is evidence the football player tried to disarm him and was the first victim, the shooter can claim self defense, fear for his life, and then the rest was a dissociative fugue due to the attempt to disarm him.
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Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.
The children mimic the behavior of their parents. If the parents don't respect everyone within a community, neither will the children. They'll discriminate in one form or another, be it on gender, perceived socio-economic class, looks, dress, even race or national origin. In the 27 years we lived in our community, we saw this time and time again. Because the parents are asses doesn't automatically mean the children are asses, but one is a pretty good predictor of the other.
By contrast, if the parents are open minded, respectful and friendly and quick to accept, there's a good probability the children won't be bullies. Again, no guarantee, but good behavior and thoughtfulness begets good behavior and thoughtfulness.
It's up to the teachers to understand what's happening in the classroom and react to it.
Based on coaching 40 youth teams over the years, I had exactly one difficult player where there wasn't a direct line that could be drawn to the parents.
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Fair enough i disagree based on my own personal experience but I respect your logic and conclusion based on yours.
I honestly think you're both right.
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It is a weak defense, but if there is evidence the football player tried to disarm him and was the first victim, the shooter can claim self defense, fear for his life, and then the rest was a dissociative fugue due to the attempt to disarm him.
Except for that he stated, in videos and in a journal (allegedly), that he expressly wanted to murder his classmates and showed up at school the following day with a gun to carry out his intentions. It's not like he can claim he was there to render aid and was attacked. A school is not an inherently dangerous place where guns typically are, as opposed to a riot or protest.
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I know it is weak. The kid has dug himself quite a hole. I wonder if the endgame is that he pleads guilty if he does it as a juvenile.
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Except for that he stated, in videos and in a journal (allegedly), that he expressly wanted to murder his classmates and showed up at school the following day with a gun to carry out his intentions. It's not like he can claim he was there to render aid and was attacked. A school is not an inherently dangerous place where guns typically are, as opposed to a riot or protest.
I agree, but... “Bro I wish I had my (expletive) AR. l'd start shooting rounds at them." - inadmissible
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I think that trying to glean lessons from the Rittenhouse defense is this kid's only chance.
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I think that trying to glean lessons from the Rittenhouse defense is this kid's only chance.
Honestly, despite my post above, there's not really many similarities in the case. Feel bad for the victims, kid shoulda had better access to help (and no access to a gun).
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Based on coaching 40 youth teams over the years, I had exactly one difficult player where there wasn't a direct line that could be drawn to the parents.
You’re a better man than I. I quit coaching on my second team because of the parents.
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I agree, but... “Bro I wish I had my (expletive) AR. l'd start shooting rounds at them." - inadmissible
Yeah, I was thinking his best defense is somehow bribing the Rittenhouse judge to move to Oakland County.
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Except for that he stated, in videos and in a journal (allegedly), that he expressly wanted to murder his classmates and showed up at school the following day with a gun to carry out his intentions. It's not like he can claim he was there to render aid and was attacked. A school is not an inherently dangerous place where guns typically are, as opposed to a riot or protest.
100%. He proved malice aforethought with that journal. Kid is going away for a long time.
His insanity plea will be defeated unless it is part of a plea bargain.
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Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.
The children mimic the behavior of their parents. If the parents don't respect everyone within a community, neither will the children. They'll discriminate in one form or another, be it on gender, perceived socio-economic class, looks, dress, even race or national origin. In the 27 years we lived in our community, we saw this time and time again. Because the parents are asses doesn't automatically mean the children are asses, but one is a pretty good predictor of the other.
By contrast, if the parents are open minded, respectful and friendly and quick to accept, there's a good probability the children won't be bullies. Again, no guarantee, but good behavior and thoughtfulness begets good behavior and thoughtfulness.
It's up to the teachers to understand what's happening in the classroom and react to it.
Connecticut must take this stuff more seriously than other states.
Earlier this school year, the high school my wife's teaches in was on lockdown because of threats made by a student on social media. Police locked down the school while they could investigate.
My kids now former high school was on lock down earlier this school year for similar reasons. (More like a bomb threat issued in multiple sites.)
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Threats seem to be the first warning (and maybe only) that something bad can happen and should be investigated.
At that point talking to parents and getting it across that this is serious.
But anyone that is set in doing harm will probably try regardless. But maybe lives can be saved for the innocent by knowing someone is threatening and taking it serious.
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The kid's parents went to the school, about two to three hours before the shooting to meet with their son and school officials over behavior issues in the classroom. This is also after the kid met with school officials the day before over behavior issues they felt was concerning.
What did the school officials relay to the parents? Not that they knew the kid wanted to shoot up the school, but it seems like if they had enough concern to meet with the kid the day before about behavior issues, and again with the kid and his parents the day of, maybe Dad should have sensed it might be a good idea to put away the 9 mm for safety sake. Just sayin'.
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Did anyone else have metal detectors in HS? We had them for one year iirc or we had them temporarily for a few month but either way we had them. Made me feel safer.
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Invountary manslaughter charges filed against the parents.
Meanwhile, in Dane Co, madison Lafollette had a kid arrested yesterday having a gun in school, with a list of prior felonies at age 18. Madison Memorial and Verona both had reports of gun violence for today.
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Involuntary manslaughter charges for the parents.
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Invountary manslaughter charges filed against the parents.
This will be the evidence in the future for the "they wanna take all our guns" morons. The nuts will be out on Fox.
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The prosecutor just laid out her case in her press conference. The parents look really bad, but this is going to be tough to win.
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Charges against the parents are now official. But having just heard some of the press conference from the prosecutor it's absolutely dumbfounding this wasn't prevented when the kid was called into the guidance or principal's office. How his backpack wasn't seized, and the fact that he just returned to his class, with the backpack, is incredible
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The school wanted the parents to take him and get him into counseling within 48 hours. The parents refused and said to send him back to class.
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called it: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/michigan-school-shooter-parents-manslaughter_n_61aa4c4ae4b044a1cc2300fc
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Since one of the victims that died had rushed the shooter, is this now a case of self defense?
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Since one of the victims that died had rushed the shooter, is this now a case of self defense?
No, because the shooter provoked the attack. If the prosecutors were able to prove that Rittenhouse provoked the attack (since I’m assuming that’s where this post is coming from), he would have been found guilty also. They failed to do that and/or there was no evidence he did.
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Good Christ.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894?s=21
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Mom's Instagram post two days before the shooting.
https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_808,w_500,x_0,y_0/dpr_1.5/c_limit,w_690/fl_lossy,q_auto/Screen_Shot_2021-12-02_at_2.52.59_PM_spmhrl
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Good Christ.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894?s=21
Sick. Sick. Sick.
Also, not a bit surprising.
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Good Christ.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1466819872160165894?s=21
A lot of the times (like in the Waukesha incident) you shake your head and wonder how it could have been prevented. That’s not the case with this one. It should have been prevented multiple times. Charging the parents is the right move, imo. The more people that are held accountable, the better.
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The prosecutor just laid out her case in her press conference. The parents look really bad, but this is going to be tough to win.
You are right. The parents will have the best lawyers that right-wing money can buy.
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This will be the evidence in the future for the "they wanna take all our guns" morons. The nuts will be out on Fox.
You are right. The parents will have the best lawyers that right-wing money can buy.
Is there some sort of right wing defense of the parents that I am missing? Otherwise, why are you doing this?
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Is there some sort of right wing defense of the parents that I am missing? Otherwise, why are you doing this?
It's what the Daily Koz told him. ::) ::)
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Since one of the victims that died had rushed the shooter, is this now a case of self defense?
If it was tried in Wisconsin there would be a good chance.
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If it was tried in Wisconsin there would be a good chance.
Good lord. 🤡
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Is there some sort of right wing defense of the parents that I am missing? Otherwise, why are you doing this?
I haven't seen any efforts yet. But in general the NRA and 2nd amendment folks are adamantly against holding people responsible in any way, if their guns are used by others to commit crimes. So it would make sense, if they are remotely consistent, for the NRA and 2nd amendment folks to defend the parents.
Regardless, charging someone is one thing. Getting a conviction is another. I'd be surprised if they were able to get any conviction here.
To me, the biggest question is how did the school not enforce the student being removed, and/or calling mental health services immediately. Schools have been locked down for less than drawing a picture of people being shot after searching for ammunition.
It is clear the parents failed. But the school epically failed in this case too.
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I think what gets the parents off is that when they heard about the shooting they check for the gun, called 911 & and texted him not to do it. If they didn't, it'd be much easier to get a conviction.
Just think this family was just another law abiding good guy with a gun... until they weren't. But of course because they eventually weren't they don't fit the box of "good law abiding people deserve guns"... until they don't.
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Oakland County sheriff says the parents are MIA.
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I haven't seen any efforts yet. But in general the NRA and 2nd amendment folks are adamantly against holding people responsible in any way, if their guns are used by others to commit crimes. So it would make sense, if they are remotely consistent, for the NRA and 2nd amendment folks to defend the parents.
Regardless, charging someone is one thing. Getting a conviction is another. I'd be surprised if they were able to get any conviction here.
To me, the biggest question is how did the school not enforce the student being removed, and/or calling mental health services immediately. Schools have been locked down for less than drawing a picture of people being shot after searching for ammunition.
It is clear the parents failed. But the school epically failed in this case too.
Agreed. The school screwed this up as well.
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Agreed. The school screwed this up as well.
Absolutely. This should have never happened. Very sad and these parents are disgusting.
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You are right. The parents will have the best lawyers that right-wing money can buy.
My opinion only, but I doubt it. There is no social wedge issue in this one. White kid shoots up a school? No upside to defend him, no way to rile up the base.
The strategy will be to ignore it and claim anyone talking about stricter gun laws is "politicizing it". That been the playbook in the past.
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Oakland County sheriff says the parents are MIA.
Oakland County fugitive team searching for parents of Oxford High suspect
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2021/12/03/oakland-county-fugitive-team-searching-parents-jennifer-james-crumbley-oxford-high-suspect/8855814002/
Fine people!
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https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-timeline/8854011002/
Timeline
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https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-timeline/8854011002/
Timeline
Woof, brutal
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I wonder if they will be smart enough to mask up.
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https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-timeline/8854011002/
Timeline
They didn't want to be bothered. When parenting got tough, they chose not to deal with it.
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As more and more facts come out I almost/strangely feel bad for this kid. Seemed to be screaming for help all the way up to the moment everything boiled over.
Hope the parents and school officials face some sort of accountability.
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https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-timeline/8854011002/
Timeline
Just about everyone that could have f/cked up did so.
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We've had threads here on Scoop -- usually after one of these needless sprees ends up with multiple deaths -- in which numerous common-sense suggestions to help reduce gun violence have been made.
I mean, how about a law stating that if daddy and mommy buy a gun, they have to provide evidence that they will lock it up securely, where the kids can't get to it? And if they fail to do so, and something like this Oakland incident happens, they would be held accountable and face serious prison time.
Wouldn't that be the definition of a common-sense law that would save lives? Whose 2nd Amendment rights would that take away?
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Legally they're unfortunately going to have a hard time proving manslaughter for the parents in the state of Michigan. As far as negligence for the school it's also probably a difficult case as inept as they were. I would think though that the parents of the victims will seek civil action. What an unmitigated disaster and terrible tragedy.
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We've had threads here on Scoop -- usually after one of these needless sprees ends up with multiple deaths -- in which numerous common-sense suggestions to help reduce gun violence have been made.
I mean, how about a law stating that if daddy and mommy buy a gun, they have to provide evidence that they will lock it up securely, where the kids can't get to it? And if they fail to do so, and something like this Oakland incident happens, they would be held accountable and face serious prison time.
Wouldn't that be the definition of a common-sense law that would save lives? Whose 2nd Amendment rights would that take away?
The problem is those are not in the current laws of Michigan. You can't alter laws on the fly which as I said is a big prob for the prosecution.
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The problem is those are not in the current laws of Michigan. You can't alter laws on the fly which as I said is a big prob for the prosecution.
Totally agree. I made that suggestion irrespective of the Michigan situation.
Over the years, many Scoopers have suggested numerous possible ways to reduce gun violence. None of us claim they would end gun violence, just as laws against drunk-driving don't end people getting killed by drunk drivers.
Today, I'm proposing what I suggested as a future law. I think it would save lives without infringing on any American's 2nd Amendment rights.
It's an example of the many things we could do to keep something like what happened in Oakland from happening next time.
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It's clear to me that the parents are morally culpable, and of course they ARE guilty, but I think manslaughter is going to be a high bar to clear.
I'm equally upset at the school that they could look at the facts of that day and not immediately send him home for a minimum of 24-48 hours. No tolerance, and it doesn't even need to be punitive. Attend virtual class until a cooling off period, until counseling metrics are fulfilled. Separately, an articles check should have immediately been triggered. They can and should be held civilly liable...the timeline of events is so disturbing and heart-wrenching.
As a parent, I unfortunately cannot protect other parents from being awful. But I should be able to expect that my school should be able to intercept and protect my children against them.
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The strategy will be to ignore it and claim anyone talking about stricter gun laws is "politicizing it". That been the playbook in the past.
The other favorite line every single time one of these happens:
"Now is not the time to talk about this ... "
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Parents are on the run. Probably looking for a militia for protection.
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Parents are on the run. Probably looking for a militia for protection.
You can't help but make every one of your posts a political thing, can you?
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You can't help but make every one of your posts a political thing, can you?
You must be new here ;D
We have learned that in addition to being horrific, disgustingly bad parents...they aren't too bright either.
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You must be new here ;D
We have learned that in addition to being horrific, disgustingly bad parents...they aren't too bright either.
I didn’t think I had to make my comment on real.
Personally, i think they supplied the gun to the kid so he could do what he did. That’s how horrific and disgusting I think they are. But it’s like clockwork that Jockey makes anything he doesn’t like a political issue. Can’t it just be about what horrible disgusting idiots the parents are, without interjecting politics into it?
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We've had threads here on Scoop -- usually after one of these needless sprees ends up with multiple deaths -- in which numerous common-sense suggestions to help reduce gun violence have been made.
I mean, how about a law stating that if daddy and mommy buy a gun, they have to provide evidence that they will lock it up securely, where the kids can't get to it? And if they fail to do so, and something like this Oakland incident happens, they would be held accountable and face serious prison time.
Wouldn't that be the definition of a common-sense law that would save lives? Whose 2nd Amendment rights would that take away?
You mean like the law passed in Connecticut in 2019 called *Ethan's Law".
If there's a child under 18 in the house, guns must be locked up.
https://portal.ct.gov/Office-of-the-Governor/News/Press-Releases/2019/06-2019/Governor-Lamont-Signs-Ethans-Law-to-Strengthen-Requirements-on-the-Safe-Storage-of-Firearms
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You can't help but make every one of your posts a political thing, can you?
It was just a joke, but an hour or two in your safe space and you will be good as new.
You'll be OK, little buddy.
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You mean like the law passed in Connecticut in 2019 called *Ethan's Law".
If there's a child under 18 in the house, guns must be locked up.
https://portal.ct.gov/Office-of-the-Governor/News/Press-Releases/2019/06-2019/Governor-Lamont-Signs-Ethans-Law-to-Strengthen-Requirements-on-the-Safe-Storage-of-Firearms
Yes. Let's do that nationally. There are so many other things that can and should be done.
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It was just a joke, but an hour or two in your safe space and you will be good as new.
You'll be OK, little buddy.
Fortunately, I will. Because I don’t get butt hurt like you do. Thanks Jock.
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Yes. Let's do that nationally. There are so many other things that can and should be done.
Looks to have stalled in committee after being introduced to congress in February.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/748/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
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The parents have been located and arreated.
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if the school was so concerned with lil ethan, that he was exhibiting potentially harmful behavior, enough to call in the parents(a lotta good that did) why didn't they(the school) search the kid's backpack and/or call the police regardless? aside from the parents, the school has got to be partially liable here as well.
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if the school was so concerned with lil ethan, that he was exhibiting potentially harmful behavior, enough to call in the parents(a lotta good that did) why didn't they(the school) search the kid's backpack and/or call the police regardless? aside from the parents, the school has got to be partially liable here as well.
Not sure anyone has said they're not, and in fact the opposite. I was actually wondering if there'd be grounds for charges against them as well. They will be held liable in civil court
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Did the shooter report earlier that he was being bullied to parents or school staff?
Was there a specific event that triggered the shooting?
Who were the victims in relationship to the shooter?
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if the school was so concerned with lil ethan, that he was exhibiting potentially harmful behavior, enough to call in the parents(a lotta good that did) why didn't they(the school) search the kid's backpack and/or call the police regardless? aside from the parents, the school has got to be partially liable here as well.
(https://wp-media.patheos.com/blogs/sites/321/2014/01/StrawMan2.jpg)
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Looks to have stalled in committee after being introduced to congress in February.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/748/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
Our elected officials hard at work, stonewalling legislation that would save their constituents' lives.
And in other news:
LUMBERTON, N.C. (WBTW) — A second grade student has been suspended for a year after bringing a handgun to school, according to Glen Gordon Burnette III, the spokesperson for Robeson County Schools, marking at least the fifth known incident of a student in the Public Schools of Robeson County being found with a gun in school since late August.
https://www.wbtw.com/news/state-regional-news/2nd-grader-suspended-after-bringing-loaded-gun-to-lumberton-school/
Sounds like more parents who need to be held accountable but won't because NRA-funded politicians don't have the onions to pass common-sense laws that will save lives.
Why aren't the "all lives matter" people voting out politicians who don't care enough about the lives of schoolchildren to enact laws that would protect those lives?
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For a lot of the people saying the school should've done more my fiancé (HS math teacher) pointed out that schools cannot kick a minor to the street. If the parents flat out said "we're not taking him" then he can't be let go.
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Not sure anyone has said they're not, and in fact the opposite. I was actually wondering if there'd be grounds for charges against them as well. They will be held liable in civil court
II assume we have some scoop lawyers but from what I've read it's going to be extremely difficult to hold either the parents or school criminally negligent.
This despite the fact that they clearly were and this tragedy should have never happened. That said I do expect the school to get sued by the victims ' parents. From a societal standpoint I find this story extremely disturbing and I'm not talking about the 2nd amendment or the gun debate. WTF is going on with parents in this country?
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Thanks, Galway. Some measure of peace for the school I hope. I'm sure it differs in every jurisdiction, but is there a bar that needs to be cleared to authorize a locker or articles check?
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For a lot of the people saying the school should've done more my fiancé (HS math teacher) pointed out that schools cannot kick a minor to the street. If the parents flat out said "we're not taking him" then he can't be let go.
So a school cannot suspend a student if they're a minor without the parents' permission? Are school authorities legally guardians at your fiance's school? I'm just curious what the actual protocol is here. Obviously a cop wasn't at the school but can't the school tell the parents we can't have him and the police are on their way if you refuse to take him into custody?
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For a lot of the people saying the school should've done more my fiancé (HS math teacher) pointed out that schools cannot kick a minor to the street. If the parents flat out said "we're not taking him" then he can't be let go.
No, but when he has demonstrated he is a danger to himself or others, they can contact authorities to deal with it immediately. They can also search his bag. Or, have him spend the rest of the day with a counselor and a student safety officer, where they can monitor his safety and well being.
The, oh the parents don't want to take him home, so just have him go back to class without any checking for weapons/other threats etc., may be gross negligence.
Note, this isn't on the teacher. It appears the teacher did what they were supposed to by documenting the threat and immediately passing it along to the people responsible for handling the situation.
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Our elected officials hard at work, stonewalling legislation that would save their constituents' lives.
And in other news:
LUMBERTON, N.C. (WBTW) — A second grade student has been suspended for a year after bringing a handgun to school, according to Glen Gordon Burnette III, the spokesperson for Robeson County Schools, marking at least the fifth known incident of a student in the Public Schools of Robeson County being found with a gun in school since late August.
https://www.wbtw.com/news/state-regional-news/2nd-grader-suspended-after-bringing-loaded-gun-to-lumberton-school/
Sounds like more parents who need to be held accountable but won't because NRA-funded politicians don't have the onions to pass common-sense laws that will save lives.
Why aren't the "all lives matter" people voting out politicians who don't care enough about the lives of schoolchildren to enact laws that would protect those lives?
Dems control both houses and the presidency. They could pass this if they wanted to.
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Here is the problem with trying to find the school negligent. They followed their procedures. They saw something, they said something. They tried to get the parents to take him and get him into counseling. The parents refused.
What exactly were the options at that point? Expel him into whose custody? The parents had refused him and told them to return him to class. Ignore the parents' wishes? Toss him for thoughts? That is quite the can of worms. At 12:50, he was still just a troubled kid.
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Dems control both houses and the presidency. They could pass this if they wanted to.
You are smart enough to know that's not true. It would be filibustered so it couldn't pass without the support of 60 senators, meaning at least 10 Republicans would have to sign on. It's not a budget issue, so it couldn't pass through reconciliation.
One way to make it possible to save the lives we all claim are precious would be to vote out congresspeople who oppose common-sense laws that would protect our kids and grandkids. If there are Dems who oppose such legislation, they should be voted out, too.
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Here is the problem with trying to find the school negligent. They followed their procedures. They saw something, they said something. They tried to get the parents to take him and get him into counseling. The parents refused.
What exactly were the options at that point? Expel him into whose custody? The parents had refused him and told them to return him to class. Ignore the parents' wishes? Toss him for thoughts? That is quite the can of worms. At 12:50, he was still just a troubled kid.
Maybe it's an example of why at least one police officer should. be present at our public schools? Could they not have asked his parents to check his backpack and locker?
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No, but when he has demonstrated he is a danger to himself or others, they can contact authorities to deal with it immediately. They can also search his bag. Or, have him spend the rest of the day with a counselor and a student safety officer, where they can monitor his safety and well being.
The, oh the parents don't want to take him home, so just have him go back to class without any checking for weapons/other threats etc., may be gross negligence.
Note, this isn't on the teacher. It appears the teacher did what they were supposed to by documenting the threat and immediately passing it along to the people responsible for handling the situation.
Ya....this is basically where I'm at as well.
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You are smart enough to know that's not true. It would be filibustered so it couldn't pass without the support of 60 senators, meaning at least 10 Republicans would have to sign on. It's not a budget issue, so it couldn't pass through reconciliation.
One way to make it possible to save the lives we all claim are precious would be to vote out congresspeople who oppose common-sense laws that would protect our kids and grandkids. If there are Dems who oppose such legislation, they should be voted out, too.
It had bi-partisan support in CT when it passed, but the threat of a Republican filibuster is what killed it in committee? I highly doubt that.
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Maybe it's an example of why at least one police officer should. be present at our public schools? Could they not have asked his parents to check his backpack and locker?
We always did. Sometimes 2, one from each town. Wasn't till I was in college that people were shocked about having DPS on campus that I found out that was uncommon.
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So a school cannot suspend a student if they're a minor without the parents' permission? Are school authorities legally guardians at your fiance's school? I'm just curious what the actual protocol is here. Obviously a cop wasn't at the school but can't the school tell the parents we can't have him and the police are on their way if you refuse to take him into custody?
In school suspension. In Milwaukee (where she used to teach) there were really really strict rules around out of school suspensions and most were a day of that (even after a student choked my fiancé) in her new district in a blue collar to less than stellar suburb of Chicago they have similar issues around suspensions. Now I think the police thing is a great leverage tool but given all the videos of police body slamming mommy's little angels I don't think they're excited to help out.
No, but when he has demonstrated he is a danger to himself or others, they can contact authorities to deal with it immediately. They can also search his bag. Or, have him spend the rest of the day with a counselor and a student safety officer, where they can monitor his safety and well being.
That's what I said, she said they're not trained to deal with these situations and we're assuming adequate staffing. But I still agree with you that in these situations the counselor is the best trained individual to help.
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Maybe it's an example of why at least one police officer should. be present at our public schools? Could they not have asked his parents to check his backpack and locker?
There was a security officer in school. What was the probable cause? That he was a troubled kid? Constitutional lawyers would love that.
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I didn’t think I had to make my comment on real.
Personally, i think they supplied the gun to the kid so he could do what he did. That’s how horrific and disgusting I think they are. But it’s like clockwork that Jockey makes anything he doesn’t like a political issue. Can’t it just be about what horrible disgusting idiots the parents are, without interjecting politics into it?
There is no question the parents intentionally supplied him with the gun. He was present when his father bought it, his mom posted that it was an early Christmas present, and IIRC he and his mom went practice shooting.
However, as big of POS parents all evidence shows they are, I doubt they actually wanted him to shoot up a school.
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https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/bond-set-at-500000-for-parents-of-alleged-oxford-high-school-shooter.html
Big bond for these two.
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There was a security officer in school. What was the probable cause? That he was a troubled kid? Constitutional lawyers would love that.
Looking at ammo on his phone? Drawing a myriad of pictures of guns and killing people? Isn't this why the teacher sent him to the principal? I said it's legally flimsy but that doesn't mean there wasn't a strong cause for concern over this kid.
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There was a security officer in school. What was the probable cause? That he was a troubled kid? Constitutional lawyers would love that.
They don't need probable cause. They just need a reasonable suspicion. If the backpack is in the locker, they can do that without any reasonable suspicion. The locker is school property.
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I wonder what the Venn diagram looks like between "school wasn't authoritarian enough in Oxford" and "schools/teachers shouldn't get to decide what topics to teach or what books to have in the library" groups.
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They don't need probable cause. They just need a reasonable suspicion. If the backpack is in the locker, they can do that without any reasonable suspicion. The locker is school property.
The lack of back pack search is what gets me upset. I understand the school followed procedure etc but man does that seem like a big misstep.
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Thank you, lawdog.
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So a school cannot suspend a student if they're a minor without the parents' permission? Are school authorities legally guardians at your fiance's school? I'm just curious what the actual protocol is here. Obviously a cop wasn't at the school but can't the school tell the parents we can't have him and the police are on their way if you refuse to take him into custody?
In school suspension.
Stay with a counselor and or security.
Call child services to get the kid some help.
As this develops, I'm less mad at the kid and more mad at the parents and school.
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The kid obviously needed help. The adults failed him. Not making an excuse for his actions, but you have to wonder what a proper intervention could have accomplished.
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You are smart enough to know that's not true. It would be filibustered so it couldn't pass without the support of 60 senators, meaning at least 10 Republicans would have to sign on. It's not a budget issue, so it couldn't pass through reconciliation.
One way to make it possible to save the lives we all claim are precious would be to vote out congresspeople who oppose common-sense laws that would protect our kids and grandkids. If there are Dems who oppose such legislation, they should be voted out, too.
They could just remove the filibuster, you're smart enough to know that.
But this is what Democrats do. They're massive pushovers.
You bet your ass that when the Republicans are in the same position in the future that the filibuster will be removed.
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They could just remove the filibuster, you're smart enough to know that.
But this is what Democrats do. They're massive pushovers.
You bet your ass that when the Republicans are in the same position in the future that the filibuster will be removed.
I would change Democrats to most politicians in general. They all bloviate about issues near and dear to their voters, but when it comes time to actually legislate, they sit on their hands. Their only concern is getting more funding for their re-election campaign.
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I would change Democrats to most politicians in general. They all bloviate about issues near and dear to their voters, but when it comes time to actually legislate, they sit on their hands. Their only concern is getting more funding for their re-election campaign.
Not sure what you're arguing here. A state law passed in Connecticut after a tragedy of unspeakable proportions finally got some Republicans to sign on.
So you think that a national law like this could pass in the Senate with at least 10 Republicans supporting it? I highly doubt it, but I'd love to see it. And sure, Dems should push harder for it, make the Republicans say no.
If it did come to vote and the GOP killed it, I'm glad to know that you would vote against any senator in your state who opposed it, regardless of which party he or she is from. Thanks for wanting to save lives, BB!
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Not sure what you're arguing here. A state law passed in Connecticut after a tragedy of unspeakable proportions finally got some Republicans to sign on.
So you think that a national law like this could pass in the Senate with at least 10 Republicans supporting it? I highly doubt it, but I'd love to see it. And sure, Dems should push harder for it, make the Republicans say no.
If it did come to vote and the GOP killed it, I'm glad to know that you would vote against any senator in your state who opposed it, regardless of which party he or she is from. Thanks for wanting to save lives, BB!
You sure are riled up about this bill you didn't even know was introduced to congress before this morning. If you agree with everything the politicians you vote for do, then I think you are an unthinking stooge. It'd be impossible for me to vote at all by your standards.
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You sure are riled up about this bill you didn't even know was introduced to congress before this morning. If you agree with everything the politicians you vote for do, then I think you are an unthinking stooge. It'd be impossible for me to vote at all by your standards.
Dozens of gun bills have been introduced in Congress in recent years, One party has torpedoed every one.
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You sure are riled up about this bill you didn't even know was introduced to congress before this morning. If you agree with everything the politicians you vote for do, then I think you are an unthinking stooge. It'd be impossible for me to vote at all by your standards.
It's not just this legislation I'm "riled up about" -- although this would seem so easy for every American to support, regardless of party. Are there folks out there who don't believe a parent has a responsibility to lock up his or her gun so kids can't get at it? There are numerous common-sense laws -- including some that have support of 70% or 80% or more Americans -- that could be passed to help reduce gun violence. We've discussed many of them in past threads after whatever the unspeakable-tragedy-du-jour happened to be.
I just want to save lives of actual living, breathing human beings, and I think you do too. Unfortunately, we have politicians who will fight to protect our children from the critical-race-theory bogeyman, but not from the guns that are killing them every day.
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-congressman-posts-family-christmas-025707888.html
Nothing says Christmas like guns….a few days after a school shooting.
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We are not a serious country.
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NYT ran a "conversation" between liberal Gail Collins and conservative Bret Stephens on several subjects. Here was their exchange on this preventable tragedy ...
Collins:
On guns we’ve got another heartbreaking mass shooting at a school, this time in Michigan. For a lot of people, it shows how important it is to have laws that require gun owners to store their weapons at home in secure places where underage family members or underage anyone can’t get their hands on them. But I’m not seeing Republican leaders call for that kind of very basic, obvious reform. Interpretations, please.
Stephens:
Gail, this latest tragedy is a reminder, as the N.R.A. used to say, that people kill people — and that it’s a lot easier to kill people when certain people with unmistakable signs of serious mental illness have access to a gun in an unlocked drawer, along with plenty of ammunition. In a sane world, this shooting would, at a minimum, lead to stronger safe-storage laws, though Republicans in Michigan let just such a law wither without a vote this year. How a party that claims to prize the immanent value of human life when it comes to a zygote can be so ambivalent about safeguarding the lives of innocent teenagers at school is simply beyond me.
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NYT ran a "conversation" between liberal Gail Collins and conservative Bret Stephens on several subjects. Here was their exchange on this preventable tragedy ...
Collins:
On guns we’ve got another heartbreaking mass shooting at a school, this time in Michigan. For a lot of people, it shows how important it is to have laws that require gun owners to store their weapons at home in secure places where underage family members or underage anyone can’t get their hands on them. But I’m not seeing Republican leaders call for that kind of very basic, obvious reform. Interpretations, please.
Stephens:
Gail, this latest tragedy is a reminder, as the N.R.A. used to say, that people kill people — and that it’s a lot easier to kill people when certain people with unmistakable signs of serious mental illness have access to a gun in an unlocked drawer, along with plenty of ammunition. In a sane world, this shooting would, at a minimum, lead to stronger safe-storage laws, though Republicans in Michigan let just such a law wither without a vote this year. How a party that claims to prize the immanent value of human life when it comes to a zygote can be so ambivalent about safeguarding the lives of innocent teenagers at school is simply beyond me.
This is one of the reasons why I think it will be hard to convict the parents. They can simply point to the fact that the legislature wouldn't even consider this for a law, yet here they are charging someone for a crime on the same thing they didn't view worthy of establishing a law on.
Also, if it is criminal negligence to not have the gun secured, then aren't the republican legislature's also culpable for not putting in the law?
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This is one of the reasons why I think it will be hard to convict the parents. They can simply point to the fact that the legislature wouldn't even consider this for a law, yet here they are charging someone for a crime on the same thing they didn't view worthy of establishing a law on.
Also, if it is criminal negligence to not have the gun secured, then aren't the republican legislature's also culpable for not putting in the law?
Oh, based on everything I've read and heard, I have little hope that those two criminally irresponsible parents will be held accountable.
Maybe a civil suit can at least make them destitute ... though there undoubtedly are congresspeople who would raise money for them. Hell, Gaetz, Gosar and Greene will probably offer them jobs.
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Oh, based on everything I've read and heard, I have little hope that those two criminally irresponsible parents will be held accountable.
Maybe a civil suit can at least make them destitute ... though there undoubtedly are congresspeople who would raise money for them. Hell, Gaetz, Gosar and Greene will probably offer them jobs.
Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents? Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.
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Not helping yourself.
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Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents? Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.
Lack of any kind of self control.
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Unrelated, Gail Collins, Bret Stephens, Kristof, Rubin, Dowd, Will, Scarborough and the dopes from Congress who they allow to write these pieces can honestly throw themselves down a well. Op-Ed pages only serve to feed the beast of $$$, and sniping about how the media is biased. (This also goes for cable news media on both sides, who literally have shows and segments, literally designed to only only focus on “media bias”).
These writers and shows are so hilariously out of touch, but again, eye balls and cash, amiright?
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Manufactured outrage is profitable. Common sense and logic, less so.
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Again, is there any evidence that those people are supporting the parents? Why are we inserting this type of stuff into this topic when it doesn't look to be occurring.
Well Boebert did post a picture of her with her kids (all younger than the Oxford shooter) armed with either AR15's or a handgun, in front of their Christmas tree.
So it would appear at least one of "these people" seem to be perfectly ok with arming young children and letting them have access to weapons/boasting about their "presents".
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Nothing goes together like a holy Christian holiday and weapons of mass murder.
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Nothing goes together like a holy Christian holiday and weapons of mass murder.
In case you didn't hear, there's a war on Christmas.
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Constitutionally protected image and speech. And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.
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Constitutionally protected image and speech. And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.
Understood. My comment on it was largely in relation to it as evidence on why it will be so hard to convict the parent. They need to prove that their actions were clearly negligent and far from the norm.
Defense attorney can point to a sitting congress woman arming her younger kids, and emphasize that keeping a firearm unlocked in a bedside drawer is pretty common place in gun-states. And emphasize that it is pretty ordinary for a kid to be looking up "accessories/ammo" for a new present he got (no red flag).
The only remaining argument is not checking his bag, which the school has said there was insufficient evidence to identify him as an immediate threat.
They will argue that this only looks like a red flag in hindsight, and that an ordinary American (e.g. congresswoman) act in a similar manner.
In my opinion, that is why formal laws need to be on the books holding gun owners accountable.
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Constitutionally protected image and speech. And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.
I have no idea why we have so many school shootings
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Yes, you do. We all do. But there are many layers and building a consensus to fix them all isn't doable.
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Constitutionally protected image and speech. And she isn't doing it to impress you guys.
I'd like to believe it's all performative... but I don't believe it's all performative.
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Well Boebert did post a picture of her with her kids (all younger than the Oxford shooter) armed with either AR15's or a handgun, in front of their Christmas tree.
So it would appear at least one of "these people" seem to be perfectly ok with arming young children and letting them have access to weapons/boasting about their "presents".
Not a gun person, don't own a gun, and am not some fervent supporter of gun rights. However, this is a major stretch. I knew plenty of kids who had guns and went shooting or hunting with their parents growing up and they were responsible and educated shooters/hunters. Partially cause they were indoctrinated to it early on.
Equivocating that equally to some dipcrap parents who got their kid a gun (while also exhibiting COPIOUS amounts of poor judgement and lack of emotional intelligence) is just sloppy. A parent letting their kid have a glass of wine with dinner at home growing up is "perfectly ok" with underage binge drinking or alcohol-based hazing cause hey, they support underage drinking in their house
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Agree.
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Not a gun person, don't own a gun, and am not some fervent supporter of gun rights. However, this is a major stretch. I knew plenty of kids who had guns and went shooting or hunting with their parents growing up and they were responsible and educated shooters/hunters. Partially cause they were indoctrinated to it early on.
Equivocating that equally to some dipcrap parents who got their kid a gun (while also exhibiting COPIOUS amounts of poor judgement and lack of emotional intelligence) is just sloppy. A parent letting their kid have a glass of wine with dinner at home growing up is "perfectly ok" with underage binge drinking or alcohol-based hazing cause hey, they support underage drinking in their house
The kids had weapons of war - aka assault rifles. She was not showing her support for hunting or target shooting. If you want to live in pretend-land, go ahead. But she has a history of being stone cold crazy.
We are talking life and death. Promoting the use assault rifles for underage children is nuts. Every single time no matter who does it. You know that and your 'devil's advocate' comparison is nonsense.
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You guys do realize that she does this stuff to keep her name in the headlines, right? Without intentionally inflammatory crap like this, she is 100% irrelevant. She doesn't write legislation, she doesn't have any power whatsoever except for the power that she gets by being a bull in a China shop.
This is her entire job, and every time you get outraged or tune in to see what she does next you give her more power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKao_Pox5A
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You guys do realize that she does this stuff to keep her name in the headlines, right? Without intentionally inflammatory crap like this, she is 100% irrelevant. She doesn't write legislation, she doesn't have any power whatsoever except for the power that she gets by being a bull in a China shop.
This is her entire job, and every time you get outraged or tune in to see what she does next you give her more power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKao_Pox5A
Yeah, I thinkGreene is genuinely a lunatic, Boebert is just a dumbass but clever enough to ride the rightwing rage machine to endless piles of cash.
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edit: I think I've gone a bit too political so backing off.
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Imagine arguing over gun rights instead of our 3rd world Healthcare system that continually allows this to happen.
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Imagine arguing over gun rights instead of our 3rd world Healthcare system that continually allows this to happen.
Universal healthcare stops school shootings? Good to know.
I think the prevailing attitude toward mental health in this country is an issue, but there are MYRIAD options available. This kid wouldn’t have been put in a positive mental health space with his terrible parents if he lived in Denmark
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Universal healthcare stops school shootings? Good to know.
I think the prevailing attitude toward mental health in this country is an issue, but there are MYRIAD options available. This kid wouldn’t have been put in a positive mental health space with his terrible parents if he lived in Denmark
Mental health care is a deflection by a certain political party when these things happen. The idea we’d actually address affordable access to mental health care options is preposterous
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Mental health care is a deflection by a certain political party when these things happen and the perpetrator is white. The idea we’d actually address affordable access to mental health care options is preposterous
FTFY
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Mental health care is a deflection by a certain political party when these things happen. The idea we’d actually address affordable access to mental health care options is preposterous
Don't forget about the violent video game deflection
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I'd like to believe it's all performative... but I don't believe it's all performative.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/boebert-massie-gun-photo/620942/
"Boebert’s and Massie’s photos suggest that we have moved past the point of a kind of firearm respectability politics. Here, the very meaning of guns is to make liberals hysterical; liberal hysteria is no longer an obstacle to good policy making or even an irritating by-product of the democratic process, but rather the desired outcome of almost all right-wing political rhetoric."