More conference realignment talk

[shoothoops]

I don't think KenPom is the end all be all either. You said:

And I did.

Because the question when deciding whether or not to add a team to a conference isn't "would they be successful?" as you've been focusing on. The question is "are they valuable enough to justify slicing the pie an additional time?". I'm not even sure the "would they be successful?" question is relevant at all. Look at Maryland and Rutgers. They had no chance of being successful in the B1G's flagship sport but they were added because they were valuable enough in other ways (whether that is still true is a matter of debate).

I think many teams, including SLU (and including some lesser teams than SLU) would be successful in the Big East. I think very few teams are valuable enough to justify splitting the pot an additional way (while also being within the realm of possibility). UConn was the most obvious one and Val made it happen. Gonzaga, Notre Dame, and Kansas are probably the only other three at this point and the second two are a lot closer to impossible than possible right now. Maybe in the future, SLU or another school continues to improve and makes themselves valuable enough to justify an invite.

We're not running from a bear here. The goal isn't to be better than the worst program in the conference (unless we are allowed to kick out DePaul then maybe we talk) the goal is to be better than the majority of the programs in the conference so that the conference is improved rather than watered down.

I compared this year, one year to one year, just as the other poster did. That isn’t what you did.

In case you haven’t been reading the thread, several posters have posted as to whether or not SLU would be successful. I understand you don’t have that question, but you aren’t the only poster here posting at me.

SLU right now would not be bottom of the conference, DePaul etc.. That isn’t something with which I agree. You also have used little terms here and there like promotion or keep improving to justify an invite. I think you are overvaluing Big East league Results and individual Big East Team results. 

[Galway Eagle]

My post was regular season league titles which has more value for me even though league tourney titles are important too and obviously get auto bids.

Getting an invite isn’t just about past on court success. Creighton for example, had made 2’of 6 NCAA Tourneys when they joined. They hadn’t made an NCAA 2nd weekend in 40 years at the time. Since joining the Big East, Creighton has a Sweet 16, a Regular Season Big East Title, and 5 NCAA Tourney appearances.

Yes and Creighton still had 8 more appearances than SLU still has all time. That's again the difference, Creighton still had an sheet showing a lot of appearances in their history that brought cache but SLU didn't/doesn't. They're on their way to there but 10 appearances? I'd take Davidson.

[MDMU04]

We're not running from a bear here. The goal isn't to be better than the worst program in the conference (unless we are allowed to kick out DePaul then maybe we talk) the goal is to be better than the majority of the programs in the conference so that the conference is improved rather than watered down.

This is the entire point. 

Adding SLU is like adding another Seton Hall or St. John's.  SLU may marginally improve the conference, at best.  And aside from people that went there and some people in the St. Louis metro area, I can assure you that nobody else gives one single sh!te at all about SLU basketball.

Adding Gonzaga makes the conference objectively better.

What am I missing here?

[shoothoops]

Yes and Creighton still had 8 more appearances than SLU still has all time. That's again the difference, Creighton still had an sheet showing a lot of appearances in their history that brought cache but SLU didn't/doesn't. They're on their way to there but 10 appearances? I'd take Davidson.

Creighton getting into the Big East had more to do with relationships, Tim Lannon, etc..which again is one of several pieces to the puzzle.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is the entire point. 

Adding SLU is like adding another Seton Hall or St. John's.  SLU may marginally improve the conference, at best.  And aside from people that went there and some people in the St. Louis metro area, I can assure you that nobody else gives one single sh!te at all about SLU basketball.

Adding Gonzaga makes the conference objectively better.

What am I missing here?

Nothing.  This is exactly the point.

[Galway Eagle]

Creighton getting into the Big East had more to do with relationships, Tim Lannon, etc..which again is one of several pieces to the puzzle.

I agree we all know that but they already had an existing history that was much better than SLU's. It goes back to my earlier point of were not bringing in a team so they can get better and be great we're bringing in someone that proved themselves already over the years and can move up from there. SLU would likely get better by joining but as it is they don't bring basketball prestige. If they were to make a bunch of second weekend runs in a row I'd be hopping on that bandwagon in a heartbeat, if they continue making the tournament for 5 more years I'll hop on the bandwagon but not as they are now.

[panda]

 

Using Torvik, SLU has finished inside the top 40 three times since 08. Top 20 twice in consecutive seasons (12 and 13). They’ve finished sub 200 three times and sub 100 five times.

Mediocrity defined.

[shoothoops]

This is the entire point. 

Adding SLU is like adding another Seton Hall or St. John's.  SLU may marginally improve the conference, at best.  And aside from people that went there and some people in the St. Louis metro area, I can assure you that nobody else gives one single sh!te at all about SLU basketball.

Adding Gonzaga makes the conference objectively better.

What am I missing here?

You’re using historical past data to predict the future. Other newer Big East teams have already shown to have been more successful in the league. (Creighton, Butler, Xavier)

Seton Hall has a regular season league title, and a conference tourney title, and the same number of NCAA appearances as Marquette this past decade.

It would be limited thinking to say SLU’s Big East results would be the same as a select past period of lack of success.

[roadwarrior3]

Nothing.  This is exactly the point.

Nobody is arguing SLU or Dayton over Gonzaga. Gonzaga is obviously the top choice of basketball programs to add.

But the point your missing is that the statement of "outside of alum and a few locals, who gives a ** about SLU basketball" can be applied to every team in the conference, no? Villanova is *maybe* an exception given their success, but no other team in the Big East has a national following and no addition to the conference will bring that, besides Gonzaga, who we mentioned is the clear top choice. But Dayton, SLU, even VCU or WS add to the overall depth of the conference and would lead to greater number of competitive games - which as fans seems like a win for all.

[MUBurrow]

It would be limited thinking to say SLU’s Big East results would be the same as a select past period of lack of success.

Agreed, but there is no reason for the Big East to buy low with the strategy of boosting its members' profiles.  It is the premier basketball-only conference in the country, and there is no to think that won't be true indefinitely.  SLU could win three straight national championships and then would still accept an offer to join the Big East before its fourth.  So the Big East can afford sit back and say "okay, you consistently show me results that won't need to improve to bring value to the conference and we'll extend an invite."  SLU hasn't consistently shown those results to warrant splitting the pie into a 12th piece.

[shoothoops]

Using Torvik, SLU has finished inside the top 40 three times since 08. Top 20 twice in consecutive seasons (12 and 13). They’ve finished sub 200 three times and sub 100 five times.

Mediocrity defined.

Torvik has SLU projected better than Marquette this upcoming season, after they finished better in his rankings than MUBB the past two seasons, and top 50 the past three seasons. They were also top 20 for 2012, 2013, and top 40 2014.

[Galway Eagle]

Agreed, but there is no reason for the Big East to buy low with the strategy of boosting its members' profiles.  It is the premier basketball-only conference in the country, and there is no to think that won't be true indefinitely.  SLU could win three straight national championships and then would still accept an offer to join the Big East before its fourth.  So the Big East can afford sit back and say "okay, you consistently show me results that won't need to improve to bring value to the conference and we'll extend an invite."  SLU hasn't consistently shown those results to warrant splitting the pie into a 12th piece.

This. It's what they don't seem to understand about the invite. It's not a case of would SLU compete it's a case of who are they and who have they been thus far. We earned our Big East invite. Butler and Xavier earned theirs. Creighton was admittedly well connected but still had more success 7 years ago than SLU does now. All of us proved it on the court at the lower level and SLU hasn't yet.

[panda]

Torvik has SLU projected better than Marquette this upcoming season, after they finished better in his rankings than MUBB the past two seasons, and top 50 the past three seasons. They were also top 20 for 2012, 2013, and top 40 2014.

You mostly parroted my initial post but forgot to mention all of the mediocre and bad years.

Once again, mediocrity defined.

[shoothoops]

I agree we all know that but they already had an existing history that was much better than SLU's. It goes back to my earlier point of were not bringing in a team so they can get better and be great we're bringing in someone that proved themselves already over the years and can move up from there. SLU would likely get better by joining but as it is they don't bring basketball prestige. If they were to make a bunch of second weekend runs in a row I'd be hopping on that bandwagon in a heartbeat, if they continue making the tournament for 5 more years I'll hop on the bandwagon but not as they are now.

SLU can certainly help themselves by continuing to win games. It’s pretty obvious that with a good coach, Ford, Majerus, Romar, Spoon, etc…they have been more successful. There have had gap periods in between those transitions. Now they also have a lot of other things they didn’t have before.

SLU doesn’t need to go on NCAA 2nd weekend tourney runs to get invited to the Big East. Other teams didn’t. Marquette has had 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 years, and MUBB has had lots and lots of advantages over the year’s SLU didn’t have.

[MUBurrow]

This. It's what they don't seem to understand about the invite. It's not a case of would SLU compete it's a case of who are they and who have they been thus far. We earned our Big East invite. Butler and Xavier earned theirs. Creighton was admittedly well connected but still had more success 7 years ago than SLU does now. All of us proved it on the court at the lower level and SLU hasn't yet.

Yup.  And if we're really breaking things down, would Creighton be here if UConn wasn't still chasing football dreams when the basketball-only BEast came together? We needed to get to 10, and Creighton was the best game in town, but they're also already the western-most member.  I think if UConn had been an original member, these threads would be talking about adding Creighton and Gonzaga, and the SLU conversation would be a distant, "yeah maybe if we eventually go to 14" conversation.

[Billy Hoyle]

They’re not adding Dayton

Dayton is more realistic than Gonzaga. The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be if expansion does happen.

[Hards Alumni]

Nobody is arguing SLU or Dayton over Gonzaga. Gonzaga is obviously the top choice of basketball programs to add.

But the point your missing is that the statement of "outside of alum and a few locals, who gives a ** about SLU basketball" can be applied to every team in the conference, no? Villanova is *maybe* an exception given their success, but no other team in the Big East has a national following and no addition to the conference will bring that, besides Gonzaga, who we mentioned is the clear top choice. But Dayton, SLU, even VCU or WS add to the overall depth of the conference and would lead to greater number of competitive games - which as fans seems like a win for all.

The point is that the BEAST won't add a school just to add a school.

[Uncle Rico]

Dayton is more realistic than Gonzaga. The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be if expansion does happen.

That is incorrect

[Hards Alumni]

Torvik has SLU projected better than Marquette this upcoming season, after they finished better in his rankings than MUBB the past two seasons, and top 50 the past three seasons. They were also top 20 for 2012, 2013, and top 40 2014.

But that's irrelevant.  Marquette is already in the Big East.  SLU isn't.  That is the heart of the matter.

If you're argument is that Marquette has been terrible for the last 7 years... well no kidding, we all know that.  But what does that have to do with anything?  This isn't a discussion of who is better at basketball SLU or MU.  This is about SLU having no business being in the BEAST. 

[shoothoops]

You mostly parroted my initial post but forgot to mention all of the mediocre and bad years.

Once again, mediocrity defined.

And that “consistency” was good enough to get Wojo fired. MUBB couldn’t crack the top 30 since Buzz did it in 2012-2013.

[Galway Eagle]

SLU doesn’t need to go on NCAA 2nd weekend tourney runs to get invited to the Big East. Other teams didn’t.

1. Creighton: Had 18 appearances to SLU's current 10

2. DePaul: I think we can all agree that was a mistake

Marquette has had 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 years, and MUBB has had lots and lots of advantages over the year’s SLU didn’t have.

Really? I had not read that recently.

I’m saying there is a lot of defensive chest out stuff here for a school with 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus seasons and 3 league titles in 30 seasons.

5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years for Marquette. 3 regular season league titles in 30 plus years. And, that’s better than some other Big East teams.

Marquette has made 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years. I wish it were a national championship annually, but it is what it is.

KO a Sweet 16. Crean a FF. Buzz 3 2nd weekends. 40 plus years.

MUBB hasn’t won an NCAA Tourney game since Buzz left.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I compared this year, one year to one year, just as the other poster did. That isn’t what you did.

That's not all the other poster did and you know that. He also compared the average ranking during the NBE era and ended it with "Should we do Dayton or SLU or next?". You responded

Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…

Given how Lens ended his post and how you responded, any reasonable person would have assumed that you were referring to either the entire post or the average KenPom rankings. I see you are going to claim that your statement was only targeted at one part of Lens's post. Doesn't make the data point any less accurate.

In case you haven’t been reading the thread, several posters have posted as to whether or not SLU would be successful. I understand you don’t have that question, but you aren’t the only poster here posting at me.

I haven't paid attention to every post but I think most of them have been focused on value rather than potential success. And if they are focusing on potential success than they are focusing on the wrong question as well.

SLU right now would not be bottom of the conference, DePaul etc.. That isn’t something with which I agree. You also have used little terms here and there like promotion or keep improving to justify an invite. I think you are overvaluing Big East league Results and individual Big East Team results.

I used the word promotion because the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered. Do you disagree?

I used keep improving to justify an invite because I don't think SLU is valuable enough to split the pie an additional slice. Do you disagree?

[shoothoops]

But that's irrelevant.  Marquette is already in the Big East.  SLU isn't.  That is the heart of the matter.

If you're argument is that Marquette has been terrible for the last 7 years... well no kidding, we all know that.  But what does that have to do with anything?  This isn't a discussion of who is better at basketball SLU or MU.  This is about SLU having no business being in the BEAST.

It’s not about if SLU is better than Marquette in basketball. It’s partly about (for some because they have said so) if SLU would be successful in it. Newer Big East teams have been more successful in it than they were prior to it.

[shoothoops]

That's not all the other poster did and you know that. He also compared the average ranking during the NBE era and ended it with "Should we do Dayton or SLU or next?". You responded

Given how Lens ended his post and how you responded, any reasonable person would have assumed that you were referring to either the entire post or the average KenPom rankings. I see you are going to claim that your statement was only targeted at one part of Lens's post. Doesn't make the data point any less accurate.

I haven't paid attention to every post but I think most of them have been focused on value rather than potential success. And if they are focusing on potential success than they are focusing on the wrong question as well.

I used the word promotion because the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered. Do you disagree?

I used keep improving to justify an invite because I don't think SLU is valuable enough to split the pie an additional slice. Do you disagree?

It depends on the money.

[panda]

And that “consistency” was good enough to get Wojo fired. MUBB couldn’t crack the top 30 since Buzz did it in 2012-2013.

Once again, MU’s past history has no bearing on SLU’s credentials (or lack thereof) for addition to the BE.