Interesting analysis by a contract attorney regarding Grant of Rights on the holyland site. Xudash is the poster who quoted him yesterday. I'm guessing that it is inappropriate to copy the holyland comments here. Apparently the rights are not as cut and dried as we legal laymen believe. Thoughts?Here is an article regarding the grant of rights at the time UT and Oklahoma announced they would not renew.
My guess is that the grant of media rights are firm or Texas and Oklahoma would be gone by now.
Does anyone not believe that the Big 10, SEC and ACC wants the Big 12, Big East AAC, etc. to go away?
The writing is on the wall in big bold letters.
They want them diminished but not away. They do want the bottom 150-250 teams to go away.I think you are right but I don't believe they think like you and I. MU, OK St., Kansas, Villanova,, etc. are not big time programs. Big college football programs bring in $30MM plus. Basketball programs bring in $4MM or much less.
Cutting off schools with large fanbases shrinks their viewership and their bottom line. If college football/basketball devolves into just another semi-pro league, it will lose it's value. The Big 4 want to set up a system where they control a majority of the pie but the Big 12s, Big Easts, and AACs of the world are still a part of it.
I think you are right but I don't believe they think like you and I. MU, OK St., Kansas, Villanova,, etc. are not big time programs. Big college football programs bring in $30MM plus. Basketball programs bring in $4MM or much less.
I hope I am wrong but I can't see a future where the SEC and Big East coexist.
That said, I think the rest of the NCAA schools can compete in there own bubble.
I don't think they think like us either. But they do understand money better than either of us. I think they recognize that a 4 conference league will not be as financially viable as one that includes additional conferences.
I don't think they think like us either. But they do understand money better than either of us. I think they recognize that a 4 conference league will not be as financially viable as one that includes additional conferences.I agree but a four conference league is where we are headed with football. Some think it will end up with one conference of 32. I don't know if Purdue, Syracuse, Arizona or the like will make the cut.
I agree but a four conference league is where we are headed with football. Some think it will end up with one conference of 32. I don't know if Purdue, Syracuse, Arizona or the like will make the cut.
At minimum small schools like Wake Forest, Duke, TCU and Northwestern are on the chopping block. They don't bring value to football.
I agree but a four conference league is where we are headed with football. Some think it will end up with one conference of 32. I don't know if Purdue, Syracuse, Arizona or the like will make the cut.https://dailynorthwestern.com/2021/08/08/sports/football-breaking-down-every-game-on-northwesterns-2021-schedule/
At minimum small schools like Wake Forest, Duke, TCU and Northwestern are on the chopping block. They don't bring value to football.
The Big 14 will never allow Northwestern to not be includedYet Kansas and national champion Baylor are now irrelevant. Never say never.
I agree but a four conference league is where we are headed with football. Some think it will end up with one conference of 32. I don't know if Purdue, Syracuse, Arizona or the like will make the cut.
At minimum small schools like Wake Forest, Duke, TCU and Northwestern are on the chopping block. They don't bring value to football.
I agree that having more schools with a chance to compete is better for college sports but the big conferences and ESPN don't want it.
Good points but my point was that the big schools and ESPN don't want small programs to have a chance to compete. I didn't claim that ESPN wants the small conferences to fold, they just don't want them in play for a championship. I think we can all agree the AAC's contract is very small compared to the P5.
You keep saying this, but is this really the case? ESPN has contracts with the AAC, MAC, and Sun Belt. The one with the AAC was signed less than two years ago and runs through 2032 and is worth $1 billion over that time. The Sun Belt contract was just finalized this summer and runs through 2031.
They also own the rights to pretty much all of the bowl games, which are filled with smaller programs
That's a strange way of not wanting them around.
And the big schools don't much care as long as it doesn't impact their revenue.
I agree but a four conference league is where we are headed with football. Some think it will end up with one conference of 32. I don't know if Purdue, Syracuse, Arizona or the like will make the cut.
At minimum small schools like Wake Forest, Duke, TCU and Northwestern are on the chopping block. They don't bring value to football.
Good points but my point was that the big schools and ESPN don't want small programs to have a chance to compete. I didn't claim that ESPN wants the small conferences to fold, they just don't want them in play for a championship. I think we can all agree the AAC's contract is very small compared to the P5.
That said, I think the rest of the NCAA schools can compete in there own bubble.
"Don't want them in play for a championship" is very different from what you've been saying. And they've already accomplished that. No team outside the P5 (soon to be P4) has ever made the CFP. They don't need to jettison them to prevent them from competing for a championship.I get it. But if you're Northwestern, Duke , Iowa St. or Arizona you at least have(d) a small chance.
And I don't think the same is true for basketball.
I get it. But if you're Northwestern, Duke , Iowa St. or Arizona you at least have(d) a small chance.
As for basketball, I agree it is different but football is the driving force in college sports. The revenues are 10X that of basketball.
Why did Texas leave a conference that it could possibly win and get to the CFP to be the 6th best team in the SEC? Money?
I get it. But if you're Northwestern, Duke , Iowa St. or Arizona you at least have(d) a small chance.
As for basketball, I agree it is different but football is the driving force in college sports. The revenues are 10X that of basketball.
Why did Texas leave a conference that it could possibly win and get to the CFP to be the 6th best team in the SEC? Money?
TAMU, I really hope you are right. I spent $3K taking my wife, daughter and a friend to the MU v DePaul game in 2020. Such a great time. I love MU and MU hoops. I support MU on a modest level and hope it and the Big East will thrive. I also send Creighton $50k per year. I'm all in on MU and the Big East. But I see more changes in the future. I never thought I'd see a school like Kansas on the outside, yet here we are.
I guess I just don't find these changes as shocking as you do. I called this back in 2011 and have been talking about how Kansas would get left out and maybe that could lead to a situation where the Big East adds Kansas basketball ever since. None of these changes lead to me believe that college sports as we know it is over. Power is getting more and more consolidated, but a universal truth about those in power is that they love the status quo.
"Academics still matter" ? Is that why the Big10 added Nebraska? The truth is if the Big 10 could kick out Northwestern and add money to each school, they will. This is a very real scenario.
The Big 14 will never force a situation that subtracts Northwestern. It’s in an attractive market and the academics still matter to the presidents of the schools making up the league. Now, would things change if schools like Ohio State and Penn State start openly flirting with the SEC or a new “super conference”? Perhaps
If you look at part of the reasoning for the new “alliance”, part of it is the flipping sanctity of the Rose Bowl. You’re overestimating the Big 14’s desire to upset the current structure of college sports.
You aren't going to see conferences kick out members. There are likely punitive rules that would prevent this from happening. What you would see is the top programs leave to join another conference like you saw with the Big 12.I would agree. I could see that with Penn State too.
So the Big Ten isn't kicking out Northwestern. If anything would happen, it would be Ohio State and Michigan departing for elsewhere.
"Academics still matter" ? Is that why the Big10 added Nebraska? The truth is if the Big 10 could kick out Northwestern and add money to each school, they will. This is a very real scenario.
If that happens, I'd take NW in the Big East. I concede that's a big 'if'.
For the millionth time, Nebraska was an AAU member when they joined the league and the Big 14 isn’t kicking anyone outOkay, so Nebraska was added for their academic prestige. Got it.
Okay, so Nebraska was added for their academic prestige. Got it.
I think the scenario put forth of OSU, PSU and Michigan leaving for a super conference is most likely.
I would agree that Northwestern will not get kicked out but nothing would surprise me.
Based on the presser about the alliance, I can confidently say it will be a colossal failureAgreed. I don't get it. We all know the SEC is becoming a real powerhouse but the "alliance' is silly. Michigan, OSU or a North Carolina will drop their conference like a bad habit in a heart beat if invited.
Agreed. I don't get it. We all know the SEC is becoming a real powerhouse but the "alliance' is silly. Michigan, OSU or a North Carolina will drop their conference like a bad habit in a heart beat if invited.
So what happens to the Big XII? I believe most of those schools spend more on football/athletics than the ACC or PAC 12 schools. I'll assume it goes away but the Oklahoma States. Baylors, Texas Techs and Kansases are some major programs. Very interesting.
The PAC 12 commissioner said that they could decide as soon as this week add new members. I don't know if that means they have targets in mind or if they just means that they will decide whether or not to even consider new members. Assuming they do try to expand, I imagine Texas Tech and Oklahoma State are likely targets. Maybe TCU and Baylor too if they want to get to 16.
Before this alliance nonsense, my assumption was that the next move would be for the B1G to raid the ACC which in turn would cause the ACC to raid the remains of the B12 and the best AAC programs. Now that they are "allied" I wonder if that means the B1G is not going to expand. I don't see the B1G being interested in any of the B12's scraps or AAC...and they don't have the juice to steal from the SEC, so if they expand I think it has to be by taking ACC programs.
It will be interesting to see who ends up where.
The ACC grant of rights extends another 14 years. Per Heather Dimich on Dan Patrick this morning, an ACC team looking to leave right now would have to pony up over $500 million.
I can’t see the Big Ten interested in Kansas. Being dreadful in football doesn’t matter to them (see: Rutgers), but who next to get to 16? ND will always be their ultimate prize abd they have great bargaining power right now.
Yeah, I know about the grant of rights, I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.
Yeah, I know about the grant of rights, I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.
Yeah, I know about the grant of rights, I've just never been convinced that it is an airtight defense against being raided. Personally would be surprised if OU and Texas actually wait until 2025 to move.
Clay Travis?? He claims to be college sports legal guru yet he doesn't know if the Big East exists??Article is from 9 years ago
I'm so tired of the sports "media". ESPN and guys like Travis are a joke.
I don't know if his assertions are valid. I do know most thought Maryland would walk away from the ACC free and clear and that did not happen.
Article is from 9 years ago
Article is from 9 years agoOops! My bad.
Unless there have been substantial changes in court rulings regarding contract law- specifically in reference to conference issues- the fact that the article is 9 years old is, to me, irrelevant. The man is a contract attorney and has provided the readers of the article with a reality check. Those of us without legal training may look at a summary of a contract, be it grant of rights or some other issue, and honestly and confidently believe we understand it. It should be very clear to us laymen that we do not know as any where near as much as we may have thought we knew about contracts.
https://theathletic.com/news/big-12-expansion-talks-focused-on-byu-ucf-cincinnati-houston-sources/5CZvjXPK0mL1BYU has the best long term football pedigrees and would definitely bring value to the Big 12 as it exists post Oklahoma and Texas. Cincinnati has had some success the last 15 years .UCF and Houston ,I guess , would be valuable for the marketing eyeballs they bring . All four would probably be able to up their recruiting as a result of joining .
BYU and Cincinnati have the best long term football pedigrees and would definitely bring value to the Big 12 as it exists post Oklahoma and Texas. UCF and Houston ,I guess , would be valuable for the marketing eyeballs they bring . All four would probably be able to up their recruiting as a result of joining .
Could strike a TV deal of 20-25 million per school. Basketball is about 20%. Strong hoops league still. If the 12 team playoff happens in football, Big12 will be fine.
Slightly better than the current AAC and every member would still leave for the other four conferences if they are invited.My guess is the remaining schools realize it’s in their mutual best interest to stay together as long as they are in a P5 conference for Football. Since none are getting an invite to leave anytime soon. I think BYU ,for sure, would up the profile of the remaining conference .
I mean yeah it’s the best they can do but it’s still not great.
BYU and Cincinnati have the best long term football pedigrees and would definitely bring value to the Big 12 as it exists post Oklahoma and Texas. UCF and Houston ,I guess , would be valuable for the marketing eyeballs they bring . All four would probably be able to up their recruiting as a result of joining .
Say wha? If you mean long term potential, I could buy that, but UC was a TRASH program for decades. They had some nice success under Brian Kelly and Fickell has them rolling now, but they had a losing record in bowls until 2 seasons ago. Hell, they were bad under Tuberville less than 5 seasons ago. They went 40 years without a bowl appearance.Agree. Amended previous post.
BYU, Houston, Cincinnati and UCF applying for admission to the Big 12.They are even saying it’s a “Done Deal”
BYU, Houston, Cincinnati and UCF applying for admission to the Big 12.
UCF? If the Big 12 doesn’t take them will they declare themselves members anyway?
Colorado Stare or Boise State make more sense. UCF may get them into Florida but not much else. They’re 4th, at best, in that state.
UCF has an alumni base of over 320k, and over 72k current students. It is the largest school in Florida, and the largest public university in the US.
They are growing very rapidly, and due to their alumni base will attract a lot of eyeballs for TV contracts.
UCF has an alumni base of over 320k, and over 72k current students. It is the largest school in Florida, and the largest public university in the US.
They are growing very rapidly, and due to their alumni base will attract a lot of eyeballs for TV contracts.
UCF is a far better option than Boise or Colorado State. Of all the options, it’s a no-brainerI agree. I wonder if the Air Force Academy was considered.
All this. UCF is starting to show promise, but in 15-20 years as those alums become donors they could become a powerhouse. And fourth in a state that has three programs that each claim 3+ football national championships isn't something to be ashamed of, especially when they've only been FBS for 25 years.
@Enquirer: BREAKING: University of Cincinnati has officially submitted its application to join the Big 12 Conference, according to two university sources. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/columnists/2021/09/08/sources-cincinnati-bearcats-submit-application-big-12-conference/5770273001/
Does anyone know if the Big East ever considered adding Wichita St.? I don't remember much discussion about it, but with the way things are shaking out in the AAC I can see a world where Wichita St. is aggressively looking to get out of the conference - regardless of what their AD says. As a basketball only school in a conference that has football their future isn't entirely on solid ground.
Does anyone know if the Big East ever considered adding Wichita St.? I don't remember much discussion about it, but with the way things are shaking out in the AAC I can see a world where Wichita St. is aggressively looking to get out of the conference - regardless of what their AD says. As a basketball only school in a conference that has football their future isn't entirely on solid ground.
Does anyone know if the Big East ever considered adding Wichita St.? I don't remember much discussion about it, but with the way things are shaking out in the AAC I can see a world where Wichita St. is aggressively looking to get out of the conference - regardless of what their AD says. As a basketball only school in a conference that has football their future isn't entirely on solid ground.
So, essentially, the Big 12 traded Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Texas A&M and Nebraska for West Virginia, Cinci, Houston, BYU and UCF.
Yikes!
So, essentially, the Big 12 traded Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Texas A&M and Nebraska for West Virginia, Cinci, Houston, BYU and UCF.Also Colorado for TCU
Yikes!
Obviously, the "trade" wasn't the Big 12's idea. But still ...
Yikes!
Also Colorado for TCU
So, essentially, the Big 12 traded Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Texas A&M and Nebraska for West Virginia, Cinci, Houston, BYU and UCF.
Yikes!
Obviously, the "trade" wasn't the Big 12's idea. But still ...
Yikes!
Yeah sitting back and fiddling while the other conferences took some of their best properties wasn't a very good idea. But I wonder if the B12 was ever truly going to be successful in the long-run even when you go back to the Big 8 merger with the four Texas schools.
There are a few programs that are just bigger than the conferences they are a part of. Indirectly, or directly, they lead to the breakup of conferences because their values will always supersede the collective’s. Notre Dame is one (Big East and ACC). Texas is definitely another (SWC and Big 12). When the SWC collapsed, thanks in large part to UT, they did so to free themselves of the “unvaluables” like Rice, SMU, TCU and Houston. Long-term, Texas led an alliance with the Big 8 in order to be tied with Oklahoma because that provided the most value. There was zero value attaching with Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State or even Baylor (which was a political addition). Before the Big 12 officially formed, Texas was in talks with the PAC, SEC and Big Ten; none made sense at the time - but it was only a matter of time before Texas found more value elsewhere. The LHN definitely kept them in the Big 12 longer than many anticipated.All good points .
The Big 12, much like the old Big East, was established as a temporary solution to a long-term conflict.
Good thing Marquette and the other basketball schools left the old Big East (AAC). Not sure who you add. UAB. Marshall, App. St.
I would add four: UAB, Marshall, Old Dominion and Rice. Rice needs to be added to keep Navy on-board, as they need at least one game in Texas annually. The other three have had varying levels of success in football and basketball, and fit within the footprint of the American.
The big question is, does ESPN continue to pay the current deal for those teams.
Listen, you’ll never replace the cache and prestige of UT and OU, but otherwise, it’s not bad at all. A&M’s rich coffers are one thing, but the program has won 1 conference title in the last 30 years. Nebraska sucks and Tom Osborne isn’t walking through that door. And Mizzou is…fine. WVU is a better program as of late than all 3. UCF is on the cusp of being a monster. And BYU/Houston are always gonna put up solid teams. TCU is an upgrade over CU too.
Good thing Marquette and the other basketball schools left the old Big East (AAC). Not sure who you add. UAB. Marshall, App. St.
Good thing Marquette and the other basketball schools left the old Big East (AAC). Not sure who you add. UAB. Marshall, App. St.
Does the AAC have a better deal than the MWC? Because I can't see why Boise, SDSU or CSU would be interested.
Does the AAC have a better deal than the MWC? Because I can't see why Boise, SDSU or CSU would be interested.
Yes, the AAC deal was $6.9M per school per year. The MWC was $4M.
The question then is, what does the deal look like when the AAC teams leave. Wouldn't be shocked if ESPN lowers it to something like the MWC deal.
I think you are right. Just eyeballing what's left in the AAC vs. the MWC, I would think the MWC is the more valuable property. Plus, it makes more geographic sense. I can't imagine it would be easy for Boise State's Track and Field team to travel to Tampa, FL for a meet in the middle of the week. Even if the AAC makes a little more than the MWC, I think Boise, CSU, and SDST would stay in the MWC.
Buffalo is an interesting name. I could see them being a fit in the AAC. When's the last time anyone raided the MAC for anything?
2005 when Marshall moved to CUSA.
But man there are not a lot of great choices here for the AAC. I wonder if they will look at Liberty.
The AAC can do whatever they want. They’re not done losing schools
Interesting. Who else do you think is leaving, and to where?
Interesting. Who else do you think is leaving, and to where?
I guess I don't understand why conferences would want to grow "to keep up with the SEC." What can the SEC do with 16 teams that the Big Ten can't with 14?
The only reason the SEC expanded was because UT and OU add a lot of cache and TV money to the conference. Unless the other conferences can recruit other members to do the same, I can't see them expanding.
I've seen UAB, Coastal Carolina, and Georgia State mentioned as possibilities.
One positive with this is that no one will attempt to compare the AAC to the Big East in basketball ever again.
When UAB is a top replacement choice, a school who disbanded and then rebanded football a short time ago, maybe it's time to call it quits?
Am I the only one surprised nobody's mentioned Northern Illinois? They were interviewed by the B12 a few years ago, and while they've fallen off recently there was a solid recent stretch where they were one of the best mid majors.
If the B12 offered to help them find a stadium expansion I could see it.
Am I the only one surprised nobody's mentioned Northern Illinois? They were interviewed by the B12 a few years ago, and while they've fallen off recently there was a solid recent stretch where they were one of the best mid majors.
If the B12 offered to help them find a stadium expansion I could see it.
2005 when Marshall moved to CUSA.
But man there are not a lot of great choices here for the AAC. I wonder if they will look at Liberty.
Yeah but it was disbanded for internal, political reasons. I think everyone who sees that from the outside realizes that.
Liberty was on the list I saw also.
How about UMass?
When's the last time anyone raided the MAC for anything?
The Big 12? Not a chance. In 2019, they were at the very bottom of FBS in attendance - with just over 8,500 per game. They just aren't terribly popular even among their own alumni base.
I doubt they would even get a AAC look.
Ok counter point, in 2012 when they went to the Orange Bowl they averaged 20,800 that's 2/3 capacity with a good team while bringing nobody of interest in.
I mean if they got a look in 2016 I have a hard time imaging there's "not a chance" as you put it
Interesting note about how the leagues would stack up over the last few years if these changes had already occurred
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/1436079329679589376?s=21
So only BYU leaving the WCC affects anything. Also shows you the gulf between the AAC (#6) and teams 7-10.
So only BYU leaving the WCC affects anything. Also shows you the gulf between the AAC (#6) and teams 7-10.
20,800 capacity that fills your stadium 2/3 full in its best year in program history? That's not exactly a selling point to a conference like the Big 12. Kansas, the worst program in the Big 12 and one of the worst in FBS history, averaged 33,000 in 2019. Of the schools they are inviting, Houston had the lowest in 2019 at 25,000, but they are in Houston - not DeKalb.
And while they B12 did interview NIU back in 2016, it was one of *17* schools they talked to.
https://www.hustlebelt.com/2016/8/12/12455204/northern-illinois-huskies-big-12-expansion-football-basketball
LOL. OK AAC...
https://twitter.com/rodger/status/1436342985000722435?s=20
God Bless Mike Aresco. For eight years and counting, he continues to awkwardly put lipstick on a pig. The American was never a power conference; it never had the autonomous status that the P5 had; it never had the television revenue that power conferences had; it never had the fan support or viewership that power conferences had (unless of course they were playing a big-time P5 opponent). In basketball, even with UConn, they consistently underperformed. I remember arena shots of their AAC Tournament in Orlando, with a picture of small UConn fans bunched together with the "Americ6nRising" hashtag; the arena was empty. There were maybe 1,500 people in the arena, if that. Outside of Houston's F4 run last year, no AAC team (excluding UConn) has done anything in men's basketball in the last decade. Cincinnati fell hard since leaving the Big East (hopefully, they improve going to the Big 12). When you create a new basketball league where half of the members are Tulane, ECU, UCF, USF, and SMU, that is a very historically weak bottom. Unless the top of the league is a blue blood, the league was always going to be a temporary stop-gap because basketball is not a power conference. For many, many, reasons, the Big East was fortunate to have hired Val Ackermann in the divorce, and not be stuck with Mike Aresco.
Once again, we (Marquette and the C7) avoided major disaster by separating from the football schools when we did. The expansion of the BE/AAC with so many programs that could not care less about men's basketball would have surely destroyed many of our basketball brands, histories and traditions. I cannot say that I have not had internal delight watching realignment unfold and not worry once again about the Big East being raided and ripped apart. We are over and done with that.
No one is really a villain. Everyone just looking out for their own interests.
Yea, they had a run of good coaches and recruiting kids that were too good for Whitewater but not quite B10 level. But it’s a meh athletic program, their basketball team stinks, and Dekalb is too far out to truly tap into Chicago from a pure locational support perspective.
I would argue Mizzou and A&M have treaded water.
https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/1436341574389149696
Don't think I've ever agreed with something more.
Just for arguments sake I'm going to argue this. Though I want it said I don't actually believe NIU will get raided, if it didn't happen when they were on a solid run with hype then it won't happen.
While you're right that NIU is too far to get the Chicago market I would say it not too far to have upgraded their stadium to a bigger spot in Naperville/Aurora, that trims a good 30min off any alumn's commute from the Chicagoland area and is still close enough that you could easily bus in students. I'd say that if I were truly trying to sell it as a possibility that I'd push hard for that location at least for marquee games of which there'd be a decent amount in the B12
Fair, but see, even at their peak, there was no demand for it. Their absolute best season in school history when they made the Orange Bowl, they couldn't sell out 24,000 seats even once. They only broke 20K in attendance twice that year at home. And other years they were abysmal in attendance. I was at Miami of Ohio during the end of Big Ben's run and the years after and it was standing room only for some games. I think there were 2 MACtion games that had 27-28,000 fans in a similarly sized 24,000 seat stadium.
Its just an odd cart before the horse argument like "well we couldn't sell out at the peak of our reputation, but if we built a bigger stadium 20-30 min away from campus, we could attract more fans..." Its just not a well enough supported athletic program. Hell, NW struggles with football attendance at times and thats a much better program, with a much easier travel to the stadium, and bigger name opponents.
I wonder if Gonzaga might be looking for a new conference with the departure of BYU from the WCC? Just dreaming, but the addition of Kansas and Gonzaga could add a lot to the Big East.
And Kansas isn’t dropping football.
You almost surely are right about this because money is money (and it's hard to blame them for that).
Plus, it never gets tiring to be humiliated on national TV by Coastal Carolina!
I agree that they won't be dropping football. But the argument that it is about the money, is not entirely correct. They lost money again last year, and will lose money every year after the current Big12 deal expires.
The reason they won't drop football is alumni donors. They aren't donating to football, but they trick universities into believing that they won't donate if they get rid of football.
The exposure even if it costs them there is a lot of value for big schools with games being promoted keeps the school name relevant on a national level.
Most college football programs lose money - at all levels. Yet schools still keep them. They clearly have value of some sort.
Most college football programs lose money - at all levels. Yet schools still keep them. They clearly have value of some sort.
Big donor pressure has a huge role. Same reason you see fraternities repeatedly and grossly violate all rules and never get kicked off campus.
The moment there is any suggestion of cutting them, or punishing them, key donors claim they will stop all donations. Universities don't have the guts to call their bluff.
There is also the value of exposure as News indicates, but its value is far far less than they promote. Donor threats are the main player.
And Kansas isn’t dropping football.
Definitely not soon. Probably not ever. But depending on how the chips fall in the future, I could see a UConn situation
You're delusional. Those Pomeroy ratings showed that even the reconstituted Big 12 is a better basketball conference than the Big East.
It's never gonna happen
You're delusional. Those Pomeroy ratings showed that even the reconstituted Big 12 is a better basketball conference than the Big East.
It's never gonna happen
But that's not really the point, is it? The AE article indicated that the football is such a financial drag that a reconstituted Big 12 with a lower TV contract (which still seems likely) could very well be less lucrative than joining the Big East without football. I don't expect to ever see Kansas in the Big East, but it's not unthinkable that some of these programs that are absolutely god awful at football (and honestly, Kansas and UConn are worse than that) and just flushing donor dollars down the toilet decade after decade might eventually wise up, especially when the basketball is their real money maker.
So all these colleges have football teams because they don’t know what they’re doing?
I think that's accurate. They live in the old mindset of continuing to try to make it work because they always have and everyone else is. No P5 schools contract football because they are all chasing unattainable profitability while staring at each other and no one wants to be the one to blink. But how many actually make money?
Don't underestimate the simple reality of peer pressure mixed with resistance to change. At some point, someone will break the cycle of futility. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean someone won't figure it out eventually.
I wouldn't go as far as Brew does and I agree with some of what Fluffy says, but I do think it would be very difficult to be the first FBS team to drop football in the modern era. We saw what happened at UAB a few years ago. Someday, a school will do it and will actually stick to their guns, and I think shortly after that we may see more schools follow suit. Not in the P4 of course. Too much money.
I noticed the AAC home football games today had “P6” on the down markers. That just seems desperate.
And Kansas isn’t dropping football.
We can make fun of Kansas football and how bleak it’s been, but let’s not forget they’ve been ranked in the top 3 more times in the last 20 years than Wisconsin and just as many big Jan 1 Bowl victories in that time as well 8-)
If you are talking the traditional "New Years Six" bowl games, Wisconsin has won two in the last 20 years. The Jan 1 2017 Cotton Bowl and the Dec 30 2017 Orange Bowl.
Most college football programs lose money - at all levels. Yet schools still keep them. They clearly have value of some sort.
Most college football programs lose money - at all levels. Yet schools still keep them. They clearly have value of some sort.
There are over 700 NCAA schools with football. Outside of the top 50-60 or so, there are probably a combination of six reasons why they do so:
1. Visibility for the university
2. Admissions driver
3. Diversity driver
4. Historical ties
5. Their peer institutions play as well
6. Alumni/donor support
At a smaller school, visibility and admissions are big factors. At admissions-competitive schools, diversity is a factor as well. Alumni support is probably overrated and exposure with peer institutions is underrated. In those years when Army was a really bad football team, people used to ask why they didn't drop to FCS. The answer was simple: because AFA and Navy were still there. No general at the Pentagon wants to hear it from an admiral in the hallway that Army can't compete with the other branches.
I wouldn't sleep on Kansas football now that Lance Leipold is there.Agree was lucky to sit next to Lance Leopold at a table for a banquet dinner where he was an awesome speaker and seemed very intelligent about football and in general.
Agree was lucky to sit next to Lance Leopold at a table for a banquet dinner where he was an awesome speaker and seemed very intelligent about football and in general.
Lance is a great guy who will take Kansas back to bowl games. But it will take time. He’s a builder - not a quick fix guy. His AD at Buffalo was patient and he will need the same now.
Most college football programs lose money - at all levels. Yet schools still keep them. They clearly have value of some sort.
Lance is a great guy who will take Kansas back to bowl games. But it will take time. He’s a builder - not a quick fix guy. His AD at Buffalo was patient and he will need the same now.
Schools find value in football regardless if it’s “profitable” or not. It’s a marketing tool.
and that value is TV money. The AAC schools get nearly $3 million more annually from TV than the Big East schools. The Big 12 schools get $34.5 million annually.
Well, Cincinnati pays their head coach $3.4M annually so with just one employee they're losing money.
Not to mention the assistants, the other staff, the stadium and program upkeep, equipment costs, travel costs, I highly doubt any AAC school was in the black based on that $3M.
In addition, they have to field additional women's programs to offset the scholarship numbers. That's what, 80 more scholarships and student athlete costs that exist for the privilege of having football?
Football might generate a lot of revenue, but that doesn't mean it generates any profit.
Big East schools don't pay for football. It's not new math, it's just math.
Big East schools don't pay for football. It's not new math, it's just math.
You make a TV argument in favor of the sport, then cite a program where one employee required for said program makes more than the difference in TV dollars, which completely undermines your argument.
His point is that the value of football to a school is more than about how profitable it is as a single entity.
Football budgets for the four Big East schools ($M)Villanova is getting an excellent return on that investment.
Butler: $1.2
Georgetown: $2.2
Villanova: $6.9
Connecticut: $16.6
Colorado State, Air Force, UAB and an unnamed 4th team (Rice or UTSA) rumored to be the four additions to the AAC.
If true, talk about putting your basketball in the incinerator.
I don’t get CSU and AFA leaving the MWC but whatever.
Neither do I. More east coast exposure and earlier TV windows, maybe? Air Force is sort of the left out child of the service academies when it comes to sports
Colorado State, Air Force, UAB and an unnamed 4th team (Rice or UTSA) rumored to be the four additions to the AAC.
If true, talk about putting your basketball in the incinerator.
Neither do I. More east coast exposure and earlier TV windows, maybe? Air Force is sort of the left out child of the service academies when it comes to sports
Yep. They're an under the radar.
I also don't get leaving the MWC for the AAC. The AAC has slightly more money now but you have to think that changes with Cincy, Houston, and UCF shipping out.
I agree with MUFIC, if you're going to have Navy and Air Force in football, might as well sign up Army and try to make yourself "America's conference" or something like that.
Sure glad that Marquette and Georgetown, I believe, spearheaded the Big East move for basketball. I hate to think of Marquette in one of these other conferences.
Marquette and Villanova. Georgetown was busy trying to flash its goods to the ACC.
Looks like Belmont is moving from the Ohio Valley Conference to the Missouri Valley. Good move for both parties, although it only enhances a geographical problem since only one MVC member is actually in the "Missouri Valley."
Anyway, the Ohio Valley will have lost four of its 12 members with Eastern Kentucky, Jacksonville State and Austin Peay leaving for the Atlantic Sun this year / next year. The ASUN and WAC are both starting FCS football conferences as part of their recent moves.
Looks like Belmont is moving from the Ohio Valley Conference to the Missouri Valley. Good move for both parties, although it only enhances a geographical problem since only one MVC member is actually in the "Missouri Valley."
Anyway, the Ohio Valley will have lost four of its 12 members with Eastern Kentucky, Jacksonville State and Austin Peay leaving for the Atlantic Sun this year / next year. The ASUN and WAC are both starting FCS football conferences as part of their recent moves.
any reason Murray St isn't trying to make a move? Between them and Belmont Murray St's the one that really has staying power IMO
any reason Murray St isn't trying to make a move? Between them and Belmont Murray St's the one that really has staying power IMO
Well at one time, Chicago and Milwaukee were a part of the Virginia Colony and the West was part of the Louisiana Purchase. With global warming, the river basins are apt to expand to accommodate conference realignment too.
Well at one time, Chicago and Milwaukee were a part of the Virginia Colony and the West was part of the Louisiana Purchase. With global warming, the river basins are apt to expand to accommodate conference realignment too.
And I don't understand why the ASUN would be better than the OVC in football.
But maybe they're not interested? I don't know.
The only thing I can think of is that there is more start-up/movement in football programs in the South. Kennesaw St, Mercer, Stetson, all started programs in the last 10-15 years. KSU is in the ASUN. Maybe they view it as more potential for growth and expansion? OVC, with the migration, is basically the Tennessee schools, Eastern IL, and SIUE, plus Murray St. Not a great footprint compared to the ASUN and its potential targets in proximity.
San Diego State and Boise State tell the AAC they're not interested; they think they can do better (Big 12, maybe Pac 12). Air Force is pushing the AAC move and wants CSU to come with them. What's interesting is CBS saying CSU is interested due to proximity with Air Force being less than 150 miles from Fort Collins while Larimie, WY, and the U of Wyoming, is only 65 miles away.
No chance on the Pac 12 for them, IMO, but the new Big 12 could make sense.
Air Force looking to join Navy?
Looks like Murray State will be going to the MVC.
Air Force looking to join Navy?
Air Force and Colorado State remaining in the MWC. The athletic department was overruled by some prominent leaders at AFA.Tough times for the AAC. Looks like UCONN made the right move.
Air Force and Colorado State remaining in the MWC. The athletic department was overruled by some prominent leaders at AFA.That is the right move for both. Mountain West is a well defined geographic conference, and eventually Pac 12 and Big 12 will absorb some of the schools. Until that happens, they need to make the best of what they have.
Didn't think the move would happen. I think this was posturing to get something from the MWC.
Buffalo still makes the most sense to me.
Didn't think the move would happen. I think this was posturing to get something from the MWC.
Buffalo still makes the most sense to me.
Buffalo and UAB.Buffalo and UAB are logical moves for both parties.
Heard today and this is contrary to most I have heard previously that Saint Louis maybe be joining the Big East. My understanding is Saint Louis has acquired many big donors recently but is there anything to this
SLU is making a major announcement on Tuesday per Twitter.Left at the altar by Gonzaga, hey
SLU is making a major announcement on Tuesday per Twitter.What Twitter did you see this on?
SLU is making a major announcement on Tuesday per Twitter.
SLU is making a major announcement on Tuesday per Twitter.
Lots of rumors of MVC. Did Big East Prez's even meet to discuss expansion yet?
The SLU announcement on Tuesday is in regards to a new facility for athletics.
The rumor that this announcement is about SLU joining the MVC is false.
SLU will be making a very strong push to become Big East's 12th full-time member.
SLU will be making a very strong push to become Big East's 12th full-time member.
Just say no. Other than the St Louis market, what do they offer? And their market size isn’t that appealing either. Add wisely Big East.
If the Big East were to add another team, Saint Louis may be the most logical based on the school itself, athletic facilities, athletic competitiveness overall, location compared to other schools and the city itself, whether you like it or not, fits in the larger market requirement. Very nice on-campus facility with 10,600 capacity. Attendance has been around 6,800. Could match up with Creighton as travel partners for home and home series.
Belmont? Good basketball program is the only benefit to the conference. Blocks from an SEC program in Vanderbilt, so they don't get much coverage. Play in a decent 5,000 seat on campus facility and in the last 2 years before Covid, averaged about 2,600 for home attendance. The other sports don't match Big East schools.
Denver? Plays in an on-campus gymnasium that seats 2,500. Won 2 games last year so I doubt attendance is much. Would play second fiddle to schools hockey program. 30 or so miles from a PAC-12 state university. Like Belmont, receives very little coverage.
The reality is BE will do what Fox wants to get a new contract and $$$.
If Gonzaga doesn’t join as basketball only, which probably isn’t happening, at what point should Loyola be strongly considered? It’s duplicating a market the conference already has a footprint, but -
1) DePaul has never been relevant since being a member and being so poorly run, may never be.
2) This isn’t merely a large media and potential fan market, it’s massive and is too much to just pass out of hand with Loyola becoming a national player recently.
The huge cavaet of course is, can Loyola sustain their recent success at all post Moser? But joining Big East May elevate them where it can happen.
I’m not endorsing their membership, but they definitely are appealing at this point in time.
Really the only consideration that matters in expansion, is does a school raise the profile of men’s basketball, the one and only cash cow for the Big East. The television contract with Fox Sports is coming up. You want to make the member schools collectively as attractive as possible in terms of their men’s basketball programs to hopefully force a media company bidding war.
I’m not arguing I think that’s a pure and wonderful thing that it’s all reduced to money, but that ship has long since sailed for major college athletics programs, so schools and conferences have to play along when everyone else is, or be reduced to irrelevancy.
And the fact is, SLU does zero for the Big East. They bring a television and media market somewhere in the 20’s nationally. That’s nice, but nothing else is brought to the table to make them an attractive potential addition that moves the needle of media giants paying the TV deal, advertisers, fan interest, etc. No signature moment of their men’s basketball program, no recent or any track record of sustained program relevancy or success, nothing. Facilities, very mediocre fan support, etc. add nothing of value to the conference. All these things you only start weighing if they first pass the litmus test of men’s basketball being relevant, successful, attractive. Which they clearly don’t, very mediocre overall.
If adding SLU is such a good idea, this would have happened by now. They’re the same program, virtually same in everything when the new Big East was formed. The conference correctly passed on them then, and should politely say thanks, but no thanks if they are indeed going to make a major push soon for membership. This would just be addition for the sake of addition and a 12th school.
Fox Sports nor any other potential bidders can make Gonzaga, or any other school on a dream wish list say yes. So that isn’t reality.I mean regarding if Gonzaga does not come but Fox says go get SLU BE will go after SLU or other programs Fox will want.
I mean regarding if Gonzaga does not come but Fox says go get SLU BE will go after SLU or other programs Fox will want.
I hope they say go get the Zags and heres a truck full of money to do so...
Really the only consideration that matters in expansion, is does a school raise the profile of men’s basketball, the one and only cash cow for the Big East. The television contract with Fox Sports is coming up. You want to make the member schools collectively as attractive as possible in terms of their men’s basketball programs to hopefully force a media company bidding war.
I’m not arguing I think that’s a pure and wonderful thing that it’s all reduced to money, but that ship has long since sailed for major college athletics programs, so schools and conferences have to play along when everyone else is, or be reduced to irrelevancy.
And the fact is, SLU does zero for the Big East. They bring a television and media market somewhere in the 20’s nationally. That’s nice, but nothing else is brought to the table to make them an attractive potential addition that moves the needle of media giants paying the TV deal, advertisers, fan interest, etc. No signature moment of their men’s basketball program, no recent or any track record of sustained program relevancy or success, nothing. Facilities, very mediocre fan support, etc. add nothing of value to the conference. All these things you only start weighing if they first pass the litmus test of men’s basketball being relevant, successful, attractive. Which they clearly don’t, very mediocre overall.
If adding SLU is such a good idea, this would have happened by now. They’re the same program, virtually same in everything when the new Big East was formed. The conference correctly passed on them then, and should politely say thanks, but no thanks if they are indeed going to make a major push soon for membership. This would just be addition for the sake of addition and a 12th school.
I’m feeling way more optimistic about the Zags in the Big East than ever before and think it’s more likely than not
I am with you. It feels like there is a lot of smoke
I feel like there is internet chat board speculation.
Really the only consideration that matters in expansion, is does a school raise the profile of men’s basketball, the one and only cash cow for the Big East. The television contract with Fox Sports is coming up. You want to make the member schools collectively as attractive as possible in terms of their men’s basketball programs to hopefully force a media company bidding war.
I’m not arguing I think that’s a pure and wonderful thing that it’s all reduced to money, but that ship has long since sailed for major college athletics programs, so schools and conferences have to play along when everyone else is, or be reduced to irrelevancy.
And the fact is, SLU does zero for the Big East. They bring a television and media market somewhere in the 20’s nationally. That’s nice, but nothing else is brought to the table to make them an attractive potential addition that moves the needle of media giants paying the TV deal, advertisers, fan interest, etc. No signature moment of their men’s basketball program, no recent or any track record of sustained program relevancy or success, nothing. Facilities, very mediocre fan support, etc. add nothing of value to the conference. All these things you only start weighing if they first pass the litmus test of men’s basketball being relevant, successful, attractive. Which they clearly don’t, very mediocre overall.
If adding SLU is such a good idea, this would have happened by now. They’re the same program, virtually same in everything when the new Big East was formed. The conference correctly passed on them then, and should politely say thanks, but no thanks if they are indeed going to make a major push soon for membership. This would just be addition for the sake of addition and a 12th school.
I’m all for the Big East going after Gonzaga and great teams.
But the SLU comments are dated and off. Their program is different today.
In no particular order:
They upped their hoops budget where now it is the same as Xavier, Seton Hall, etc..and higher than some other Big East Teams. This $ commitment would only increase in the Big East.
They have several wealthy boosters. One has donated $30 million already. Others have donated 7 to 8 figures.
They have good, recent $100 million facilities. They have an announcement coming Tuesday for an addition to these facilities. They also have access to the recently renovated ($150 million) 22k seat Arena down the street.
They no longer have the same non sports friendly, 25 year school President. There aren’t any Majerus ve Biondi charter flight disagreements. They have some better people on their board too. Majerus picked their AD.
Creighton for example had made 2 NCAA Tourneys in 6 seasons when they joined the Big East. But they did have a popular former MU VP as their school President. He was good at building relationships etc…they of course have done fine, as have others. SLU has the same number of NCAA appearances the past decade as Marquette, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall, and more than a few other Big East Schools. And, they are only scratching the surface.
Their fan support is good. Hoops is popular there. They’d do well in the Big East, and they’d have better chances at landing the local Tatum’s and Beal’s in a better league.
Marquette has made 4 NCAA Tourneys in the past decade. They aren’t projected to do so again this year. MUBB has made the NCAA 2nd weekend just 5 times in over 40 years. And we haven’t really discussed the DePaul’s etc…
Creighton for example had made 2 NCAA Tourneys in 6 seasons when they joined the Big East. But they did have a popular former MU VP as their school President. He was good at building relationships etc…they of course have done fine, as have others. SLU has the same number of NCAA appearances the past decade as Marquette, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall, and more than a few other Big East Schools. And, they are only scratching the surface.
Their fan support is good. Hoops is popular there. They’d do well in the Big East, and they’d have better chances at landing the local Tatum’s and Beal’s in a better league.
Marquette has made 4 NCAA Tourneys in the past decade. They aren’t projected to do so again this year. MUBB has made the NCAA 2nd weekend just 5 times in over 40 years. And we haven’t really discussed the DePaul’s etc…
Your post was good…until you made the shot at MU at the end. In pretty much every way, Marquette has a better basketball program than SLU.
That’s some clever framing of time periods for Billiken benefit. SLU has 1 NCAA appearance in the last 5 years. It’s not like they’ve been lighting the world on fire. Marquette had a rough few years, sure, but Marquette has made more NCAAs in the last 20 years than SLU has made in their program history. Why are we comparing MU to SLU like they are at all comparable when one has an E8 in the last 10 years and the other hasn’t been to the second weekend since color TV was broadcasting sports?
The investments and supposed changes in SLU are different arguments, but trying to put SLU basketball up against MU or other Big East teams is silly. If the deal was to replace DePaul with SLU straight up, it still wouldn’t happen. You mention Creighton, Creighton had 15 straight seasons finishing no worse than 4th in the MVC and finishing first or second 10 out of those 15 seasons. That is a level of consistency and dominance that SLU has never achieved. It wasn’t just sales and negotiation to plus up a decent program.
BTW, before you undoubtedly claim this or any rebuttal is just tribal St Louis hate and you have no STL allegiance and post on soooo many topics. This is 15 out of your last 20 posts that are directly STL related and the only wordy novellas on this site by your prolific pen are about Gateway City topics. Just own it 8-)
No one said otherwise.
Then why bring up Marquette?
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.
You're from STL and your bias does show here, though.
SLU is just another warm body and drags the conference in the wrong direction.
I think some people here have an unrealistic position as to where MUBB is in the landscape of things. Like I said, I’m all for Gonzaga, but this notion that SLU wouldn’t be good enough or competitive enough in the league is unrealistic to me.
WEST EAST
——- ———
MU PC
DeP GEORGE
CREI NOVA
BUT STJ
X S HALL
+1 UCONN
Play everyone in your division 2x, play every team in other division 1x. That’s 16 games.
That may be a little light.
Can’t imagine playing more than 20 conference (similar to this year), if another team is added.
That’s interesting given SLU has a coach who came from a program that had all the resources in the world and he wasn’t successful. And he’s been only moderately successful at SLU.
So a program with mild short term success, no long term or historical success to speak of…is suddenly compared to programs like Marquette and Creighton who have far more success by any metric, regardless of BEast affiliation to state that SLU will compete cause they have money now? And will suddenly be able to retain top 25 local recruits who went to places like Duke and Billy D’s Florida? That seems equally unrealistic to me.
It feels like a moderate performing employee at their level angling for a promotion by saying he/she would be an excellent director if only they had the prestige/resources of a director
Marquette’s position in college basketball isn’t relevant to the discussion of whether or not SLU is a viable BE expansion candidate.
The reality is BE will do what Fox wants to get a new contract and $$$.
The problem with your posts is that you keep wanting to have it both ways. You didn’t like it when I went back a decade with information. You wanted the information shorter to better fit your position. But later you want longer to add longer term historical information when it better fits your position. This suggests that you aren’t interested in a objective discussion about the topic, for reasons I already mentioned.
Some of those players have already spoken publicly about those things.
https://twitter.com/coachtford5/status/1443242988818337792?s=21
As I said, SLU can help itself by winning more games.Their coach has been able to do something other previous coaches haven’t, including Majerus, and that’s recruit local players. They have one this season, a transfer who was a top 50 local high school player. (another from just a little bit farther away, also a transfer and a top 50 hs player) Yes, I do believe SLU would be more successful with high level local recruits playing in the Big East, and continuing its other hoops commitment.
Yes and no. The Big East would like to add Gonzaga, but, it isn’t filled with many Gonzaga like programs in it. Some here think it’s a Gonzaga or bust world. I understand the thought behind wanting that.
But I also can get past that and give an opinion whether or not SLU would be successful in the Big East. I think they would be and I said in part some reasons why.
WEST EAST
——- ———
MU PC
DeP GEORGE
CREI NOVA
BUT STJ
X S HALL
+1 UCONN
Play everyone in your division 2x, play every team in other division 1x. That’s 16 games.
That may be a little light.
Can’t imagine playing more than 20 conference (similar to this year), if another team is added.
I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone has argued that SLU couldn't be successful in the Big East. I think what people have argued is that they wouldn't be valuable enough to the Big East to warrant splitting the pie an additional slice, which I think is pretty inarguable. That's not an insult to SLU, I think there are very few programs that valuable. Gonzaga may be the only one that's also somewhat realistic.
If Fox demands a 12th team in exchange for a more lucrative contract renewal, and Gonzaga says no, I would imagine that SLU would be on the short list of candidates.
What are you even talking about? I said using only the last decade (or last 5 years) makes MU look bad comparatively. But down periods happen and do not a program make. I repeatedly used longer time periods cause it’s a indicator of program strength. Short term, which you used to position SLU as more successful than Marquette, also didn’t really shine all that favorable on SLU in the grand scheme.
If you want to be taken seriously around here, you need to own your bias and also stop accusing everyone of some sort of outsized STL hate. I could care less about STL or SLU except when people with bias towards them make claims I disagree with. You don’t refute actual stats that disagree with your stance, just write novels on other stuff or just claim people don’t want to be objective against poor picked on STL.
You’re totally entitled to your thoughts and opinions about what HS recruits might stay around, that’s fair, but using NBA players, nearly a decade past their college decisions, supporting their hometown as some indicator that they would have played at SLU is as silly as people believing Lebron when he used to talk about the list of colleges he would have considered if he went to college.
Yep. But shoot has to react instinctively whenever anyone even mildly criticizes anything connected to St Louis.
I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone has argued that SLU couldn't be successful in the Big East. I think what people have argued is that they wouldn't be valuable enough to the Big East to warrant splitting the pie an additional slice, which I think is pretty inarguable. That's not an insult to SLU, I think there are very few programs that valuable. Gonzaga may be the only one that's also somewhat realistic.
If Fox demands a 12th team in exchange for a more lucrative contract renewal, and Gonzaga says no, I would imagine that SLU would be on the short list of candidates.
Nah. That isn’t it. You got bothered when I pointed out how many times Marquette has made the NCAA Tourney this past decade and how many NCAA 2nd weekends they have made in the past 40 plus years. That’s what happened in this particular exchange. Each example would be unique and different.
I explained the positives and challenges of SLU past and present.
See, this is a reasonable post, more reasonable than your recent “The Cardinals Blow” post. If people actually objectively discuss the topics they would find more common ground, positives, challenges, on a variety of topics.
The Fox deal is likely to increase with or without adding any teams. If Fox wants more inventory with more investment, SLU would be a good choice as an add in part because of some of the reasons I mentioned. They have to keep doing their part too.
What "Cardinals Blow" post?
If they add, I hope they go to a 22-game conference schedule. No team, not even Gonzaga, is worth giving up the double round robin for. Watching the unbalanced schedules of other leagues like the B10 or SEC really reinforces why DRR is the only way to go.I agree with this analysis.
If they add, I hope they go to a 22-game conference schedule. No team, not even Gonzaga, is worth giving up the double round robin for. Watching the unbalanced schedules of other leagues like the B10 or SEC really reinforces why DRR is the only way to go.I agree with this.
Alumni of St Thomas in MN who is in its first year of D3 expect to be part of the Big East “within a few years”
It’s in the baseball thread.
why does the round robin matter that much? who cares
That will be my vote!
I think you have me confused with someone else. My last post about the cardinals literally called them impressive. But I understand that in your tribalism, you think everyone who is not a part of your Tribe is the same. ;D
why does the round robin matter that much? who cares
It guarantees an even schedule for all teams. Without it, a team could win the conference because they got to play DePaul twice while the team in second had to play Villanova twice.
It's not the end of the world if we lose it, but I think most fans prefer the double round Robin to unbalanced schedules
It’s like baseball. Many people posted in that thread over and over, even for the few months I wasn’t even around, saying the St. Louis baseball team had no chance at making the playoffs and, that their player acquisitions weren’t going to help them etc…I said they may or may not he successful, but I explained why they did what they did. Because I don’t get triggered by those things, I didn’t need to point out that some were wildly incorrect there.
In addition to the above , the benefit of the double round robin is that rivalries are developing as a result of the familiarity fans have of coaches and players across the league. Rivalries are what make college sports great and drive attendance and interest. For example , I personally look forward to our home and away games against Cooley & Company , always well fought battles .
One of the other leagues that has the double round robin is the Big 12 and they have become a consistently strong conference top to bottom every year.
hoops
I was one of the people who mocked the Cardinals for wasting their time and money on John Lester and J.A. Happ. And I didn’t think your explanation made much sense, either. What happened in September proved that they (and you) were right and I was wrong. I still think Lester and Happ are pretty much done, but (to my surprise) they still had something in the tank.
Alumni of St Thomas in MN, who is in its first year of D1, expect to be part of the Big East “within a few years”
I'd rather have St Thomas in the BE than SLU.
Nope, I’m not confused. Actually, it’s still there, from September 20th.
#1 The Cardinals have had an impressive turnaround to earn their playoff spot.
#2 The Padres have had a spectacular freefall to lose their playoff spot.
#3 The Cardinals would not be in the driver's seat for a playoff spot if either #1 or #2 did not happen.
All three things are true
This?
Because that's what I posted. Uncle Rico trolled you on the same day by saying the Cardinals blow. But I know, anyone not from your Tribe looks the same to you ;D
Here is the screen shot of what you posted.
I know what I posted. Where did I post that the Cardinals blow? Uncle Rico posted that
Not sure why you keep bringing this up over snd over. I brought it up once to explain that your other post in this thread was more effective discussing the topic than your previous tribal trolling post.
You posted in response in the other thread that all four things can be true. That was one of the things listed. It’s pretty straight forward.
Not sure why we need to keep discussing it in this thread about conference realignment.
Exactly I said all things COULD be true. I didn't say it was true. You need to read what I wrote. You're assuming things I didn't say.
We don't. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am still trolling you. Of course I said the Cardinals blow. I didn't actually say it but it was clear what I meant when I joined in on Uncle Rico's trolling, because it is possible to make accurate inferences about what people mean even if their words don't say it exactly, which you just did. But this is what you do, all the time. It's very clear from all of your posts what your opinions are about St. Louis. But every time someone points that out you claim that you never said that, that they need to read what you wrote, that you say things about a lot of places, everyone else is just tribal, etc.
I’m pretty open minded and maybe you’ll be proven right. But St Thomas? What the hell are you guys talking about? They need to prove it at a D 1 level first. The Minnesota/St Thomas people seem to be getting out in front of their skis a bit.
I’m feeling way more optimistic about the Zags in the Big East than ever before and think it’s more likely than not
Just based upon comments my buddy in the Twin Cities has said about St Thomas grads, they think the BE is only the start for them. After a few years dominating us, Big Ten, then a combination of Ivy League and Big Ten, the school is just that epic.
For you posters who have been around wayyyyyy to long ......
Trevor Mbakwe fears St. Thomas. His transfer to Minnesota was his back up school.
That's a lot of.posts, words, denials, projection and gaslighting in one thread, off topic.
Shoot, you are the one who held onto an offhanded joking comment from a month ago about a completely different topic and introduced it into this thread and are now complaining about it being discussed. If you don't want a tangent discussed, don't create it and don't add to the conversation about the tangent.
Defending the honor of everything St. Louis on Scoop is a tireless task. You can't blame him for getting confused.
SLU is making a major announcement on Tuesday per Twitter.
This is the conference realignment thread.
It’s the same 20% of posters that do the 80% of posting that troll places and things that scare them. Rinse repeat. It must be exhausting to follow me around to troll, because places don’t bother me. But as pointed out, for some it goes back 15 years. For others such as this example, dozens and dozens of posts when I wasn’t even around. The same places and schools will live rent free into the minds of others long after I’m gone.
Other places and other schools don’t bother me for trivial reasons.
I post on the topics in the threads, a wide variety of topics and threads, just as I did this one. Several troll posters stopped by to hijack the thread. That says more about those people than me. And so it goes.
You brought up TAMU's post on another topic entirely. You brought up Marquette's recent basketball history even though it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
If you would have simply stuck to your long-winded advocacy of SLU, you would have been completely on-topic. But you chose not to and are now blaming others for taking it off topic.
Very strange.
If you would have read my post carefully, you would have seen all of the positives and challenges listed. But people see what they want to see.
I mentioned TAMU Eagle’s trolling of the same location to point out that his post in this thread would lead to a more effective discussion than his tribal trolling of the same place in the other thread. He of course made the post, not me.
I brought up Marquette’s recent basketball history, because for some, recent basketball on court results matter in conference realignment talks. Would Butler have received an invite if they didn’t have the 2 Final Fours a few years prior? How are schools not in the league doing compared to schools in the league. That is one part of many parts, yes.
You then followed up saying that wasn’t something that bothered you. Clearly it did because you’ve now brought it up several times. It would have been easy to simply discuss the other parts of the post instead. That would have been fine by me. I wouldn’t have cared.
I keep bringing it up because I am mocking you and making fun of you. And you keep replying!
So satisfying on a Monday morning.
BTW, the Gateway Arch is completely overrated.
This is the conference realignment thread.
It’s the same 20% of posters that do the 80% of posting that troll places and things that scare them. Rinse repeat. It must be exhausting to follow me around to troll, because places don’t bother me. But as pointed out, for some it goes back 15 years. For others such as this example, dozens and dozens of posts when I wasn’t even around. The same places and schools will live rent free into the minds of others long after I’m gone.
Other places and other schools don’t bother me for trivial reasons.
I post on the topics in the threads, a wide variety of topics and threads, just as I did this one. Several troll posters stopped by to hijack the thread. That says more about those people than me. And so it goes.
Sirs, this is a Wendy's.
r/selfawarewolves
You keep projecting and gaslighting. You took part of a post here in this thread, and you kept it going and going.
I wasn’t on the board for a while. When you click on a thread, it takes you to the most recent post. Places don’t bother me for trivial reasons. But apparently one lives rent free on the minds of some others here.
Memphis or bust. Time for them to pull a UCONN with their football squad and focus on bball.
To try and bring this back on topic:
I am sure that both the AD of Gonzaga and Val Ackerman don't think fried ravioli is a delicacy to hang a city identity on. But they may agree that there is a match between the Big East and the Zags.
No Shoot. I was gaslighting you before. That was done on purpose to try to illustrate a point. This is not projecting or gaslighting on my part. It is gaslighting on your part and may also be projecting. You brought this up, no one else. Then we (you, I, and others) kept it going and going. You understand that when you respond to an off topic conversation, you yourself are also off topic. You have the option to just not respond (or not bring up something off topic in the first place) if you don't want to have an off topic conversation.
I promise you Shoot, St. Louis does not bother me. Nor does it bother most anyone else here, that's you projecting. The St. Louis posts are almost entirely for your benefit. The same way that Chicos was teased about his love for Tom Crean, or Wades for his defense of Wojo, or PRN for his disdain for Howard, you are teased for your defense of everything the Show Me State has to offer. Can it be mean-spirited sometimes? Yes, and that shouldn't happen. But we are also a community and having inside jokes like that is part of being in a community. Hell, we had a Mbakwe reference in this thread and that reference has to be a teenager by now.
And while places don't bother you, clearly people posting negative things about certain places does. You are the one who was bothered enough by an offhanded joking comment from a month ago to remember it and bring it up in a completely different thread. And sure, while you maybe didn't see it when it was written, you made your triumphant the Cardinals are in the playoffs post over two weeks ago, so if I take your "I was gone for awhile and clicking on the thread took me to the most recent post" defense at face value, that means you still held onto it for over two weeks before bringing it up here. That's a long time for a post that inconsequential to be in your head, rent free as you said.
That's all I got on this. Apologies to anyone who was bothered by that detour. Shoot, feel free to have the last word.
Couple of questions:
1) IF Gonzaga joins the BE, how are the non revenue sports going to be handled? Will the NCAA finally yield on its unfair rule that only FB can be split off from the other sports or will the Zags and the BE non revenue teams have to travel cross country? My guess is that there would be pressure put on the NCAA to change the rule. I could see the deal being put out there publicly subject to the NCAA changing their rule, thereby making the NCAA the bad guys if they refuse.
2) Other than probably being preoccupied with bringing UCONN into the BE, why was the possibility of Gonzaga joining not been addressed a few years ago?
Do we know it wasn't addressed?
Maybe it was addressed, and Gonzaga said no at the time. Or maybe not.
Memphis or bust. Time for them to pull a UCONN with their football squad and focus on bball.
Fair point, but there were plenty of rumors (operative word) that Few really wanted to get the Zags into the BE. And today we are speculating that there are active discussions between Val and the Zags. I think speculating is allowed on Scoop. Rumors too.
I stand by my take Evansville would be a better addition than St. Louis
Couple of questions:
1) IF Gonzaga joins the BE, how are the non revenue sports going to be handled? Will the NCAA finally yield on its unfair rule that only FB can be split off from the other sports or will the Zags and the BE non revenue teams have to travel cross country? My guess is that there would be pressure put on the NCAA to change the rule.I could see the deal being put out there publicly subject to the NCAA changing their rule, thereby making the NCAA the bad guys if they refuse.
2) Other than probably being preoccupied with bringing UCONN into the BE, why was the possibility of Gonzaga joining not been addressed a few years ago?
Couple of questions:
1) IF Gonzaga joins the BE, how are the non revenue sports going to be handled? Will the NCAA finally yield on its unfair rule that only FB can be split off from the other sports or will the Zags and the BE non revenue teams have to travel cross country? My guess is that there would be pressure put on the NCAA to change the rule. I could see the deal being put out there publicly subject to the NCAA changing their rule, thereby making the NCAA the bad guys if they refuse.
2) Other than probably being preoccupied with bringing UCONN into the BE, why was the possibility of Gonzaga joining not been addressed a few years ago?
1 - it was addressed. It couldn't work, both for GU and for other BE teams. Financially and logistically (five to six hour flights with a three hour time loss to 8 of the 11 member schools is a major issue). And that rule you reference isn't for football. Otherwise, how is Denver in the BE for Lacrosse, or SDSU in the Pac-12 for soccer, Kentucky in CUSA for men's soccer, etc. If the primary conference in which a team is a member does not offer a sport then they can join another as an affiliate member. Sorry, but the public and the media aren't going to give a damn about that rule. If GU moves conferences it will be to the MWC, not the BE.
BTW, the WCC is #7 in KenPom preseason. The BE is #6.
2 - the only person talking about it was Mark Few, not the President, not the AD. And, Few got the scheduling and financial concessions he wanted from the WCC.
It's Gonzaga and at this point I'm guessing it's 70/30 happening.
My bet is Basketball Only (NCAA rules are made to be broken) and the WCC is made whole by an exit penalty 6-7 times higher than currently required.
If the Zags don't happen, nothing happens.
Why would the WCC allow them to do this? It is illogical to think they would be able to retain membership in all sports but the one that actually earns revenue.
Looks like the AAC is gutting the CUSA by adding UAB, Charlotte, UTSA, Rice, North Texas and Florida Atlantic.
Looks like the AAC is gutting the CUSA by adding UAB, Charlotte, UTSA, Rice, North Texas and Florida Atlantic.
Wonder if adding Temple would move the needle for the BE media partners? Because they can't be happy as geographic outliers in this conference.Villanova might have an opinion.
Villanova might have an opinion.
Villanova might have an opinion.
St John’s and SHU get by just fine. Philly is a big enough market for both and Nova is a monster
Temple isn’t giving up football
💰💰💰
I think FOX d/b/a The Big East will make it worth their while.
It’s 2021, everything is on the table.
Could they take it independent?
WCC is ESPN. The Zags put the BE into three time zones. Nova vs. Zags will get East and West Coast viewers. Portland vs. Zags gets you ESPN+.
#eyeballs
Looks like the AAC is gutting the CUSA by adding UAB, Charlotte, UTSA, Rice, North Texas and Florida Atlantic.
Looks like the AAC is gutting the CUSA by adding UAB, Charlotte, UTSA, Rice, North Texas and Florida Atlantic.https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1450235477022449665?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1450235478532308992%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdknation.draftkings.com%2F2021%2F10%2F18%2F22733565%2Famerican-conference-expansion-plan-14-teams-fau-charlotte-north-texas-utsa-rice-uab-applications
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Here is an article from Rice student newspaper pounding the table for Rice to join AAC. Gives a very nice history of Rice sports and the old Southwest Conference.Good stuff, but Rice is kinda an outlier in all this. Good luck on the AAC, but rather doubt it….?
https://www.ricethresher.org/article/2021/09/conference-realignment-is-on-its-way-rice-cant-afford-to-miss-out
Nova v. Zags would have to be on a weekend every year then, because the time difference would mean late tips out east (depressing viewing numbers) or early tips out west (depressing viewing numbers).
Besides, the Zags are already on ESPN for every conference game. They're getting more money from the deal than other teams in the conference, and they take a larger share of tourney units.
Good stuff, but Rice is kinda an outlier in all this. Good luck on the AAC, but rather doubt it….?
It all kind of sounds like this. No definite yeses like the UConn return.
Denver - Already in the Big East. They add a market if that's important to FOX & the BE. They know how to run championship programs. But, absolutely no history in basketball. Absolutely no cachet in basketball. Can they move to the Nuggets arena and do to basketball what they do in lacrosse & hockey? Does them being a lacrosse member allow them to ask for more or else threaten to move their lacrosse program or something like that? There ar eno rumors of this happening?
Don't overthink this. Val is going shopping and she's not looking at Macy's (Temple) or Kohl's (SLU) or Walmart (Dayton) .
She'll visit Barney's (Notre Dame) and Bergdorf Goodman (Kansas) and end up buying at Sak's (Gonzaga)
#DoneDeal.
I have no idea what any of this means.
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
What does Villanova look like when Wright retires?
What does Villanova look like when Wright retires?
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
I think that no matter what they say, Gonzaga likes where they're at - dominating the WCC year in and year out has brought them plenty of notoriety. I also think that the geographic aspect would be more brutal on them than a lot of folks here are thinking. Constantly traveling back and forth between Pacific and (mostly) Eastern time zones wouldn't be sustainable over the course of a season.
And can someone please explain to me why Dayton would be such a bad choice? I understand that they don't have quite the history of some BE schools, but they've been pretty darn good in recent years, have a really good fan base, and fit just about every metric of the other BE schools. I don't get it - it feels like some here are just (unrealistically) holding out for a school like Kansas or Notre Dame, and that's just not happening.
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
Fitzgerald made an NCAA tourney and 2 NITs in the span of 3 years in the mid 90s. Dan Monson made an E8. Then Few took over and escalated the program further.
And Few isn't 60 yet. So figure minimum 5-10 years of Few level success, plus potential exposure and money, not to mention the new NLI environment where Gonzaga has become a brand name and got top 5 recruits/lottery picks in multiple years.
Its not like Few retires and suddenly Gonzaga becomes Canisius. They just had an assistant become the head coach at Arizona. They will have myriad options internally and externally.
I have no idea what any of this means.
I agree, Dayton seems like a slam dunk. Been to a few games down at UD Arena and being honest, it's a much rowdier environment and better college basketball atmosphere than what Marquette offers. They have good facilities, passionate fan base and strong recent success so I think it makes sense. Would add fun rivalries to the conference with X and even with Marquette.
Marquette and Dayton were closer rivals back in the Great Midwest days and the only real explanation I have for why a portion of our fan base is so passionate about not adding them comes from some vantage point of: We were rivals, now Marquette is in the better conference, so we're a better program and are better than Dayton aka we won the rivalry. Dayton joining the BE obviously screws up that narrative
Heard today and this is contrary to most I have heard previously that Saint Louis maybe be joining the Big East. My understanding is Saint Louis has acquired many big donors recently but is there anything to this
What does Villanova look like when Wright retires?
No announcement yet but 3 hours ago.https://twitter.com/slu_billikens/status/1450471986526830605?s=21
SLU Men’s Basketball tweeted this. Could be just facilities but..... we will see. Be sure to follow @SLU_Billikens for all of today's updates related to the major announcement regarding the future of Billiken Athletics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dIqMmk-bPY
Counter point... it's Dayton
No announcement yet but 3 hours ago.
SLU Men’s Basketball tweeted this. Could be just facilities but..... we will see. Be sure to follow @SLU_Billikens for all of today's updates related to the major announcement regarding the future of Billiken Athletics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dIqMmk-bPY
No announcement yet but 3 hours ago.Just announced Just major facilities but facilities that will help SLUs push to join the Big East.
SLU Men’s Basketball tweeted this. Could be just facilities but..... we will see. Be sure to follow @SLU_Billikens for all of today's updates related to the major announcement regarding the future of Billiken Athletics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dIqMmk-bPY
And they've been to the Elite 8 more recently than MU.
Heck, they almost won it all in 1967! (Which, of course, sounds ridiculous - until you realize that many here still act like the Al days are recent history.)
Butler made their way into the Big East with less of an all-time resume (albeit with a genius head coach at the time), and we're not worse off for having them in the league to this day.
And they've been to the Elite 8 more recently than MU.
Heck, they almost won it all in 1967! (Which, of course, sounds ridiculous - until you realize that many here still act like the Al days are recent history.)
Butler made their way into the Big East with less of an all-time resume (albeit with a genius head coach at the time), and we're not worse off for having them in the league to this day.
Counter point... It's still Dayton. If I can avoid ever going to that crappy town again I will.
I agree, Dayton seems like a slam dunk. Been to a few games down at UD Arena and being honest, it's a much rowdier environment and better college basketball atmosphere than what Marquette offers. They have good facilities, passionate fan base and strong recent success so I think it makes sense. Would add fun rivalries to the conference with X and even with Marquette.
Marquette and Dayton were closer rivals back in the Great Midwest days and the only real explanation I have for why a portion of our fan base is so passionate about not adding them comes from some vantage point of: We were rivals, now Marquette is in the better conference, so we're a better program and are better than Dayton aka we won the rivalry. Dayton joining the BE obviously screws up that narrative
Just announced Just major facilities but facilities that will help SLUs push to join the Big East.
It's about time to link to this gem once again...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33574.msg408366#msg408366
It’s a $20 Million, 25k square foot facility for Athletics, that will go next to their basketball arena. Their $5 Million Soccer Building (behind the South goal) is expected to be completed in December 2021. Their $100 Million Basketball Arena (which includes other things) opened in 2008.
Don't overthink this. Val is going shopping and she's not looking at Macy's (Temple) or Kohl's (SLU) or Walmart (Dayton) .
She'll visit Barney's (Notre Dame) and Bergdorf Goodman (Kansas) and end up buying at Sak's (Gonzaga)
#DoneDeal.
It's about time to link to this gem once again...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33574.msg408366#msg408366
It's about time to link to this gem once again...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33574.msg408366#msg408366
Didn't he have one other epic fail of a post? Or am I thinking of another poster?
Don't overthink this. Val is going shopping and she's not looking at Macy's (Temple) or Kohl's (SLU) or Walmart (Dayton) .
She'll visit Barney's (Notre Dame) and Bergdorf Goodman (Kansas) and end up buying at Sak's (Gonzaga)
#DoneDeal.
3 out of the 4 UDPRIDE's posts fit the bill: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=2479
3 out of the 4 UDPRIDE's posts fit the bill: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=2479
Fitzgerald made an NCAA tourney and 2 NITs in the span of 3 years in the mid 90s. Dan Monson made an E8. Then Few took over and escalated the program further.
And Few isn't 60 yet. So figure minimum 5-10 years of Few level success, plus potential exposure and money, not to mention the new NLI environment where Gonzaga has become a brand name and got top 5 recruits/lottery picks in multiple years.
Its not like Few retires and suddenly Gonzaga becomes Canisius. They just had an assistant become the head coach at Arizona. They will have myriad options internally and externally.
History suggests that it's going to be harder for Gonzaga to maintain status than you suggest. Villanova is the exception--not the norm. And even they had to endure Rollie's decline and Steve Lappas.
Seton Hall (1989), St. Johns (1985), DePaul (1979), Butler (2011), Providence (1987) are all former Final Four teams that have changed coaches (multiple times) and haven't sniffed that level of success since.
Only Villanova (2016, 2018) Marquette (2003) and Georgtown (2007) have been back to a final four under a new coach, but you would hardly consider MU and GU to be national powers today.
Let's face it, looking at Gonzaga, we're not talking Kansas, UNC, or Kentucky here (or even UCLA, or Indiana). Gonzaga has no built-in national fan base that will carry them forward. They're a small school with about 5000 undergraduate students and 58,000 living alumni. Their national following is no more permanent than post-Carnesecca St. Johns, post-McGuire Marquette, post-Meyer DePaul, or post-Thompson Georgetown.
At this point, I don't think you could even argue that Gonzaga will maintain their current level of success for the next ten years even if Few sticks around if they wind up joining the Big East. They're not going to waltz through the Big East schedule like they have in the WCC. Even Villanova averages 4 losses a year in the Big East. Which means Gonzaga will get lower NCAA seeds that they've been accustomed to. Which means stiffer competition in the early rounds of the tournament and fewer deep runs.
Furthermore, the national attention they receive from being a #1 ranked team goes away. The attention from being an undefeated team goes away. At best, they're just like any other good P6 conferenc team. Every conference loss knocks them down in the rankings, so the #1 rank they inherited due to attrition over the conference season goes away. Top 20? Sure. Top 10? Maybe.
I'd even go so far as to suggest it doesn't really matter what team(s) the Big East invites--as long as they don't show DePaul-like ineptitude in managing their athletics program, the Big East provides a platform that would give any team joining very strong probability of achieving success. You can't look at who the teams are now--just look at whether they can spend on facilities, coaching and program promotion like Butler or Marquette or Xavier or St. Johns, etc.
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
This is fair points all around. Especially their dominance being lessened in a major conference.
I’ll just caveat 2 things I think are different than your examples. Gonzaga has made 23 straight tournaments (including 2020 where they had already won the conference tourney and would have been a 1 seed. They have 6 S16s, 3 E8s and 2 FFs with runners up in that time. That is a period of dominance, both in conference and on a national stage, that is absent from any of the program examples you mention, especially SH, Providence, and Butler. Plus the last 7-8 years since Few has gotten over the hump, they are consistently 1-2 seeds, marquee ESPN games, household names. Kids are seeing Gonzaga as a power from their earliest teen years through the time they commit. Those others schools never had that profile.
Additionally, it’s a very different time with media, the internet, etc than the when schools like that made the tourney. Being in a remote spot like Spokane doesn’t matter as evidenced by them having high ranked recruits from Minnesota, to Toronto to Texas.
I don’t disagree it’s hard to maintain and they won’t be able to run roughshod over the Big East like the WCC but I’d argue that Gonzaga has very little in common with SH and Providence of the 80s or even Butler of a decade ago than smaller private schools who don’t play major football.
What does Gonzaga look like when Few retires?
unnatural carnal knowledgeing Dayton? You guys serious?
Glad the crowd quelled those suggestions when I was absent.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/VogeysCavalier.JPG)
A place with a Few more losses than they are used to
I'm not sure about the etiquette of copying posts from other sites so I suggest reading a very long post from Gonzaga fan Murphy on the holyland site under the "Ackerman BE TV...." thread. It is an excellent (Herman's favorite adjective) overview of Gonzaga and the pros and cons of joining the BE if offered. Among the many subjects addressed are the financial impact of losing BYU, the movement towards more conference games in the majors, resulting in fewer OOC games available, and a very thorough financial analysis of increased travel expenses. He has one error- he refers to 20 conference games if Gonzaga joins the BE, forgetting that their joining would increase the number to 22.
This is one of the most thorough, perceptive and intelligent posts that I have ever seen. Looking forward to your comments when I return home. Long day out of the house.
I have to admit... I was not impressed with this argument. After all, that's essentially the exact same argument Conference USA used when they added programs like FAU, Charlotte and UTSA to the conference in the first place. It didn't work, as the Sun Belt passed Conference USA in almost every metric that matters.
That was a very well-written and smart post. The logistics and financials are well-thought out. The next few months will be fascinating. I hadn’t taken into consideration the loss of BYU for the WCC. That’s a blow.
After hearing the BYU point, I can see that being the last straw for Gonzaga.
I'm not sure about the etiquette of copying posts from other sites so I suggest reading a very long post from Gonzaga fan Murphy on the holyland site under the "Ackerman BE TV...." thread.
That was a very well-written and smart post. The logistics and financials are well-thought out. The next few months will be fascinating. I hadn’t taken into consideration the loss of BYU for the WCC. That’s a blow.
I actually wouldn't care if you copied, but a link would have at least been helpful so I didn't have to go track down this crap by myself :)
https://holylandofhoops.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7738&sid=e9a9a88f9ab26b58877a0d584c25acb3&start=60#p133196
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/oct/19/qa-new-gonzaga-ad-chris-standiford-on-mark-fews-su/
A few questions about conference realignment to Gonzaga's AD. He very loudly doesn't say no to the possibility of Gonzaga moving.
Interesting that he says the Big12 is certainly not done yet. Wonder what he thinks the next moves for them would be.
And they've been to the Elite 8 more recently than MU.
Heck, they almost won it all in 1967! (Which, of course, sounds ridiculous - until you realize that many here still act like the Al days are recent history.)
Butler made their way into the Big East with less of an all-time resume (albeit with a genius head coach at the time), and we're not worse off for having them in the league to this day.
Butler gives you Indianapolis market, Dayton gives you effing Dayton market.
Dayton would be a much worse addition than SLU. By a couple million people.
That's true. So if a major requirement is the size of untapped markets, SLU should really be a no-brainer. And UMass or Boston U should be in the conversation, too. VCU or U of Richmond, too. Davidson is basically in Charlotte, which is a huge market.
People want Gonzaga in the BE because of their bball success, not because of the Spokane market. I get the sense that a lot of posters here just really don't like Dayton as a city (which is fine), or have lingering anger from the years 1993-1995 when we shared a conference, which is pretty ridiculous.
I subscribe to Extra Points by Matt Brown, who focuses a lot on conference re-shuffling. Here is what he had to say about AAC's addiions:I think the ACC played the hand they were dealt. This growth market strategy was really their only possible move. Now they can at least make the claim that they are a geographically focused conference in the Southern Quadrant of the US ( one outlier Temple) . They have density within the sub markets.
"Rather than focusing on established athletic brands with supportive fan bases, it appeared to me that the AAC instead went out and focused on markets, population centers, and potential.
I have to admit... I was not impressed with this argument. After all, that's essentially the exact same argument Conference USA used when they added programs like FAU, Charlotte and UTSA to the conference in the first place. It didn't work, as the Sun Belt passed Conference USA in almost every metric that matters. Does the AAC really think that a few million more in TV revenue and regular games against Memphis and South Florida will be enough to completely unlock the potential for these brands? Especially after some of them go through coaching changes?"
That's true. So if a major requirement is the size of untapped markets, SLU should really be a no-brainer. And UMass or Boston U should be in the conversation, too. VCU or U of Richmond, too. Davidson is basically in Charlotte, which is a huge market.
People want Gonzaga in the BE because of their bball success, not because of the Spokane market. I get the sense that a lot of posters here just really don't like Dayton as a city (which is fine), or have lingering anger from the years 1993-1995 when we shared a conference, which is pretty ridiculous.
The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.
Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they’re long down the pecking order.
That’s somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.
Adding a market doesn’t equal automatic eyes.
I think the ACC played the hand they were dealt. This growth market strategy was really their only possible move. Now they can at least make the claim that they are a geographically focused conference in the Southern Quadrant of the US ( one outlier Temple) . They have density within the sub markets.
The big plus the ACC still have is the ESPN contract , where some of their football games are broadcast on ABC. So for example if this realignment had taken place prior to this year, in theory a game between two top 25 teams in Texas ( UTSA and SMU) would have been broadcast in a sold out Alamo dome.
Over time the AAC has had some good football teams, I think that will be the case going forward and they should be able to make some money on the football TV. Especially if some of the potential geographical rivalries take hold. I think the AAC has done enough to ensure their long term survival as a conference .
Of course it will be a long time before the ACC is ever a decent basketball conference in this new structure. That of course is a secondary consideration.
The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.
Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they’re long down the pecking order.
That’s somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.
Adding a market doesn’t equal automatic eyes.
Add smart. Gonzaga is the only program I’d entertain. Dayton has a rabid fan base and sustained success but I still don’t love their fit in the BE.
The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.
Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they’re long down the pecking order.
That’s somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.
Adding a market doesn’t equal automatic eyes.
Add smart. Gonzaga is the only program I’d entertain. Dayton has a rabid fan base and sustained success but I still don’t love their fit in the BE.
Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?
Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU hasn't cracked that list since 2001.
Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?
Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU has cracked that list since 2001.
The Big East isn’t adding either, so it’s not worth arguing about
I think over the next few years you may be in for a rude awakening if you think the league will be content sitting at 11 or 12 members. Sure the talk now might be on only adding "one" but the league will grow to 16-18 members, it is only a matter of time. Just look at any other major conference ever. It's happened to every single one of them. More teams = greater geographic reach, more marquee games for television, more teams making NCAA appearances etc.
The focus is going to be on adding schools who have strong programs, demonstrated success, and will be able to maintain the basketball focus without later being recruited by a bigger conference for football. When looking at schools that fall in that bucket, SLU and Dayton are two of the names at the top of the list.
Folks, this is a done deal, we're getting Gonzaga and its going to be awesome.
The Big East doesn't do Dayton or SLU. The goal is and always been to be the SEC Football of Hoops.
I'm really shocked people are debating any of this. Val said it. It's done.
I like it. This got me hyped.
1) It’s about being competitive. When a team is competitive, they get fans.
Fan interest isn’t an issue. This is their game at SLU January, 2020 just before the pandemic:
https://twitter.com/slunaticsstl/status/1216886384532869120?s=21
If there's another Gonzaga besides the one in Spokane then don't get too hyped.
I think over the next few years you may be in for a rude awakening if you think the league will be content sitting at 11 or 12 members. Sure the talk now might be on only adding "one" but the league will grow to 16-18 members, it is only a matter of time. Just look at any other major conference ever. It's happened to every single one of them. More teams = greater geographic reach, more marquee games for television, more teams making NCAA appearances etc.
The focus is going to be on adding schools who have strong programs, demonstrated success, and will be able to maintain the basketball focus without later being recruited by a bigger conference for football. When looking at schools that fall in that bucket, SLU and Dayton are two of the names at the top of the list.
1) It’s about being competitive. When a team is competitive, they get fans.
2) It’s about the size of the venue. Spoon Ball was top 25 national attendance, 17k a game, playing in a large arena. In 2008, their on campus arena opened which is similar in size to Xavier’s Cintas Center. 10k. They have filled it up at much higher prices when Majerus and Ford have been competitive etc…
Fan interest isn’t an issue. This is their game at SLU January, 2020 just before the pandemic:
https://twitter.com/slunaticsstl/status/1216886384532869120?s=21
that't nice, they showed up for a top 5 team. How is the student section looking against Fordham, Duquense, Richmond, basically anyone other than Dayton? Why not pics of the 5200 fans who showed up for Duquense or 5100 for St. Joe's?
Spoon Ball? Seriously?
Spoon left SLU in 1999 and died in 2012. *That's* what you are basing your fan interest on?
In 2019, a 20-win season that would end with a NCAA tournament appearance, they would have finished 10th in the BE in attendance. Ahead of only DePaul.
Nope. I named four different coaches and eras. And, I’ve explained their situation. Fan interest isn’t an issue for them. Troll all you want.
I'm not trolling. I stated a statistic that shows attendance at their games would be at the bottom of the Big East. Your continued exaggeration and use of historically insignificant statistics is laughable and doesn't really help your argument.
I enjoy how any SLU disagreement is now “trolling”. Constant claims of trolling, gaslighting, projecting, and “triggered” tribal hatred whenever SLU or it’s namesake city are not met with full throated agreement or praise, much less besmirched in any way, are getting to be a bit boy who cried wolf.
Chaifetz Arena is a really nice venue and yes it’s smaller so they can’t be bringing in 12-15K a game, but they haven’t averaged more than 7000 fans in more than 5 years. They aren’t packing the house with any regularity. Maybe they get 8000+ like in Crews’ best year but the likelihood of them going nearly unbeaten at home, like back then, in the BEast is unlikely. You can make fun of St Joes RPI, but it’s not like casual fans would suddenly come out in droves for a mid-bottom BEast SLU team playing against DePaul, Providence, or SHU
Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?
Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU hasn't cracked that list since 2001.
You are assuming SLU would be a mid bottom Big East Team once they were in the Big East? They wouldn’t have the same budget, revenue, etc…and we’ve already covered many of these things. Without them they already covered the middle part.
Markus Howard and Joey Hauser will go camping together at Devils Lake before SLU & Dayton are added to this Big East.
The only way those schools are added is if there’s an exodus of current teams.
It’s Gonzaga or no one.
Not so sure. Notre Dame’s football deal ends in 2025. Fox Sports didn’t exist when they signed with NBC. MU and ND have a two year trial before then coincidently and they may have buyer’s remorse for the rest of their sports. Their football footprint has not been helped them in the ACC.
I have heard the Domers have missed us in their Big East sports.
Fine. Then ND and Zags or no one ;Dif given the option, take ND. Let’s say Few retires in a couple of seasons and Gonzaga craters. Then what? ND has staying power, a brand. Even if they suck, it’s still ND...not to mention our oldest rival.
Yes, I am assuming that the program that hasn’t finished above 4th in the A10 for the last 5 years, and has more seasons finishing 10th or below than they do finishing top 3 in a mid major conference since joining the A10, won’t storm into the BEast and suddenly jostle at the top.
You repeatedly cite budgets as if there aren’t schools that spend tons on basketball yet don’t dominate. TCU, Northwestern, and Pitt are all among the top 25 budgets in NCBB but the on court results don’t bear it out. Xavier is 10x the program SLU is and has been for 20 years. It’s clearly more than money. You clearly have a fondness for the program and view their potential with blue tinted glasses, and that’s fine. But there is just as much evidence for skepticism about SLU being a strong BEast program, much less a contender, and to think so is not trolling or hating or whatever you want to say.
Not so sure. Notre Dame’s football deal ends in 2025. Fox Sports didn’t exist when they signed with NBC. MU and ND have a two year trial before then coincidently and they may have buyer’s remorse for the rest of their sports. Their football footprint has not been helped in the ACC.
I have heard the Domers have missed us in their Big East sports.
When I post about other topics, places, things, sports, people, in other threads, c-r-i-c-k-e-t-s. But there is that one place that keeps you coming back, in the same way, in different threads.
You knowingly are not comparing apples to apples. That’s trolling. Providing relevant, factual, information by definition isn’t exaggeration.
Not sure wha you are hearing and where, but Notre Dame likes being in the ACC for its Olympic sports, as it is the best conference for that. It’s one of 3 important things for them. The other two are access to the playoff and the other is a tv partner.
Isn’t the P12 best for Olympic sports? Also, I know they have ACC FB requirements (also last year was messed up for many reasons), but isn’t ND’s playoff access independent of the ACC? If Clemson gets in, that doesn’t bar ND.
Markus Howard and Joey Hauser will go camping together at Devils Lake before SLU & Dayton are added to this Big East.
The only way those schools are added is if there’s an exodus of current teams.
It’s Gonzaga or no one.
You clearly don't understand what trolling is, because I am not doing that. What you are doing is using statistics from a bygone era to show "fan support," but aren't using relevant, more recent statistics. If anyone is trolling it is you comparing SLU to Marquette, which is hilarious because Marquette's history, success and fan support exceed SLU's significantly.
I like SLU. It's a nice program with a lot of potential. When it accomplished what similar programs have accomplished, maybe it will get a BE invite like Creighton, Xavier and Butler. Until then it can keep plugging away in the A10.
You really seem focused on Gonzaga, Lens.
Your thoughts on timing of the announcement (since you believe it is inevitable) ?
I'm not fully convinced it will happen but if so, questions remain about their non revenue sports teams and, of course, travel. My guess is that if they join the BE they may be allowed a certain amount of preferential treatment by the BE for scheduling conference games so that they can play two road games in three days. Just a wild idea but could they cut a deal with the WCC conference with $ involved to entice them to allow Gonzaga to leave their non revenue sports in the WCC?
I've made my posts bc Gonzaga is a darn near blue blood and Dayton & SLU are sooooo far off the national radar. They are nothings. I know Dayton had a GREAT run in 2020 but they're 84th in KenPom now. SLU is 92nd.
Gonzaga is a name. It's a brand. And oh by the way it's #1 in KenPom right now. Let's look at Gonzaga during the NBE era:
KenPom:
2022 = 1
2021 = 1
2020 = 2
2019 = 2
2018 = 10
2017 = 1
2016 = 21
2015 = 7
2014 = 24
Average KenPom ranking = 8
Should we do Dayton or SLU now?
And while I won't pretend to know the timeline, I do know that people like Val don't publicly ponder opportunities like Gonzaga unless the deal is 85% done.
Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…
MUBB was 83rd in KenPom this past season. 8 Big East teams were not in the KenPom top 50 this past season. SLU had a better KenPom than all of them.
Preseason predictions are also fun. Matt Norlander has MUBB 105 and SLU in the top 68 NCAA Tourney field.
No one said they didn’t want to have Gonzaga for Men’s basketball.
We don't need to do Marquette next. Marquette is already in the Big East. And has had recent and historical success that SLU can't even dream of. It would be like comparing USC football to Rutgers football.
I've made my posts bc Gonzaga is a darn near blue blood and Dayton & SLU are sooooo far off the national radar. They are nothings. I know Dayton had a GREAT run in 2020 but they're 84th in KenPom now. SLU is 92nd.
Gonzaga is a name. It's a brand. And oh by the way it's #1 in KenPom right now. Let's look at Gonzaga during the NBE era:
KenPom:
2022 = 1
2021 = 1
2020 = 2
2019 = 2
2018 = 10
2017 = 1
2016 = 21
2015 = 7
2014 = 24
Average KenPom ranking = 8
Should we do Dayton (73rd) or SLU (160th) now?
And while I won't pretend to know the timeline, I do know that people like Val don't publicly ponder opportunities like Gonzaga unless the deal is 85% done.
Of course it matters for multiple reasons. 1) If Gonzaga doesn’t join the Big East and the Big East expands. 2) If the Big East adds multiple teams.
It’s so difficult to keep up with when people use historical information, and when they only use current or recent information. Goalposts keep moving around.’
Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…
Preseason predictions are also fun. Matt Norlander has MUBB 105 and SLU in the top 68 NCAA Tourney field.
We don't need to do Marquette next. Marquette is already in the Big East. And has had recent and historical success that SLU can't even dream of. It would be like comparing Texas football to Memphis football.
SLU has neither the historical nor recent success. So no matter where the goalposts are placed, they miss the mark.
Those days are over for SLU. They have big money donors. Some of them have found their way on their BOT. They have a better AD and President situation. They upped their budget recently to the same as Xavier. And it’s still going to go up. They have spent $125 Million on 3 buildings all within the past 15 years when some of this board and admin changes have been taking place.
I can say confidently that fan interest will not be an issue with SLU students, SLU fans, general fans. SLU has to do their part and be competitive and successful. When they are, the whole metro area goes to their games, watches them on tv etc…that’s how it works.
But if SLU could be competitive with Marquette and some of those other schools in the past, without lots of the things they have in place now, there is little reason to believe they wouldn’t compete at a high level in the future.
On the one hand you don’t want to include some of SLU’s attendance stats that I referenced because they are too dated for you. But at the same time you want to mention Marquette’s historical success, much of which is half a century ago. Can’t have it both ways.
The factual points of reference I made matter. Let’s say it was Marquette.
Cause 90% of your other posts are you talking to yourself. Endless tennis posts to nobody. Random posts about stuff you’re interested in that isn’t engaging to others. I and many others don’t post cause predominantly we DGAF because you view Scoop as your own Wordpress blog
But when you swoop in with impassioned and biased posts about STL in sports threads? That’s worth engagement. Cause you’ve never been wrong about anything in your entire life and deal only in neutral facts and logic and you can’t bring yourself to comprehend how anyone disagrees with you without tossing out terms like troll or projection or other condescending BS.
Yet you’re still in denial about your STL love affair. Show me your countless other paragraphs breathlessly defending things that aren’t STL related? Maybe the occasional diatribe about Vandy athletics
But I get it. You’re SOOOO worldly and versed and completely neutral about EVERYTHING but just a poor misunderstood victim cause everyone picks on you and STL. Shockingly, me and countless others, who you are so firmly convinced are constantly following you and out to get you, posted on myriad topics and thrived while you spent time away from the board.
I’ll hang up and look forward to you throwing forth a bunch of labels and and explanations of what I’m actually thinking and feeling, maybe accompanied by screenshots and links of posts from 6 months to 6 years ago. Totally normal!
But hey, it’s almost time to add Porter Moser Oklahoma updates to the shoothoops STL/Vandy/Tennis RSS feed :D
Okay.
Average KP rank during NBE era:
Marquette: 61.25
Dayton: 63.38
Georgetown 66.75
St. John's: 88.88
DePaul: 121
SLU: 149
They're not that fun because they are very accurate. Norlander may be right but his rankings are one man's opinion. KenPom which uses actual data to make their predictions has the following:
MUBB 87
SLU 92
That's not to say SLU won't end up being a better team this season (again preseason rankings are inaccurate) I just don't think Matt Norlander's preseason opinion is a good argument for anything.
And in case you forget, I believe that SLU would be successful if they were added to the Big East. I also believe many other teams would be successful if promoted to the Big East as well.
I'll gladly admit MU and others have greatly underperformed. But you don't remedy that by adding other mediocre programs. Expansion in the non network model (i.e. no BTN or SEC Network aspirations) is about improving the television content. We're on a national network that wants national appeal.
- UConn is a near blue blood that did that
- Kansas and ND do that but they are probably not options
- Gonzaga does it
That's the list. There is zero reason to add Dayton or SLU. Sorry, it's not happening.
But it wasn't, and isn't Marquette. Marquette has a better history, a better program and a fanbase that shows up to game in a significant manner DESPITE lack of recent success.
This is why it is a nonsensical comparison.
Maybe 10 years from now we will look back at SLU and see that they have become the next Gonzaga, or even the next Xavier, and will be a no brainer for the Big East to add. Maybe all those "big money donors," investment into facilities, and supportive administration will FINALLY make a difference and SLU starts winning consistently and competing at the highest levels. Maybe fans will show up and pack their arena. And it would be cool if that actually DOES happen.
Marquette already has and done those things. Yet you keep bringing it up as some sort of valid comparison. It isn't.
I mean you're adding programs who have proven they can have success. You don't think television content would've been improved if we had a top 5 team in Dayton playing at Villanova or Seton Hall in 2020? Obviously that is only one year, but the point is you're just increasing the number of schools which could have big years in your conference, increasing the chances of more marquee games for television etc.
Also, current Big East averages 4-6 teams into the tournament per year. A 14-16 member league would likely see that rise to 7-9 bids a year. More NCAA tournament teams = better television content.
I mean you're adding programs who have proven they can have success. You don't think television content would've been improved if we had a top 5 team in Dayton playing at Villanova or Seton Hall in 2020? Obviously that is only one year, but the point is you're just increasing the number of schools which could have big years in your conference, increasing the chances of more marquee games for television etc.
Also, current Big East averages 4-6 teams into the tournament per year. A 14-16 member league would likely see that rise to 7-9 bids a year. More NCAA tournament teams = better television content.
No one said they didn’t.
I’m saying there is a lot of defensive chest out stuff here for a school with 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus seasons and 3 league titles in 30 seasons.
Xavier for example, has had more success, more often, than Marquette in the past 40 years.
No one said they didn’t.
I’m saying there is a lot of defensive chest out stuff here for a school with 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus seasons and 3 league titles in 30 seasons.
Xavier for example, has had more success, more often, than Marquette in the past 40 years.
Again, who the f*ck cares? None of this has anything to do with the viability of SLU as a BE member.
And you are one to talk about "defensive chest out stuff." Have you read anything you posted here?
SLU has made the same number of NCAA Tourneys as MUBB this past decade. Also the different periods and eras have also been related to other topics such as attendance etc..some of which has been covered.
5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years for Marquette. 3 regular season league titles in 30 plus years. And, that’s better than some other Big East teams.
Like I said I’m all for the Big East adding Gonzaga, but most Big East schools aren’t Gonzaga.
4 (5) league titles
94 Reg
97 Tournament
03 Reg
12 Cuse had title rescinded we were 2nd
13 Reg
But yes there's plenty of chest puffing. Xavier has been predominantly better for 40yrs that really doesn't say anything other than show that programs can be much better than what SLU & Dayton have shown in order to earn an invite.
He used one year, preseason data of this year. I used this past year’s Big East league data as a response to what was used. It isn’t just about this team or that team vs Gonzaga. At some point looking in the mirror matters too.
Why would a non Big East School need to have Big East Results? They wouldn’t. I also don’t believe KenPom numbers are the be all end all. They are one of many tools and observations. We’ve had this discussion before. League titles and how one is doing in their league, NCAA Tourney appearances, NCAA Tourney results all matter more to me than KenPom numbers, especially when comparing apples to oranges leagues and teams etc..
SLU caught a tough break when their coach got sick and died, and, made it clear he wanted his friend to be the next coach. And they lost their top assistant to the Loyola HC position. Clearly they were doing well, and had very strong too 20 level KenPom numbers in 2012, 2013, 2014, etc…after building a program against several obstacles. And their KenPom numbers have steadily improved each of the last few seasons since having to start over again.
Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…
Why would a non Big East School need to have Big East Results?
NCAA tourney appearances aren’t a good measure of similarity because of the conference alignment. I feel SLU peaks out in 80-100 in rankings. A good year at MU we are in the Top 25.
UConn was a great add to the BE because they made the top of the conference better. I feel adding SLU and Dayton would make the bottom half of the conference better. I think SLU and Depaul would be similar.
From a marketing perspective, adding SLU and Dayton don’t add a lot. Neither are considered a marquee name. If you ask the casual fan to stack rank teams historically, they would likely be in the 100s or lower.
From a money generation perspective, the SLU and Dayton TV markets aren’t adding big dollars like pulling in a Dallas or Houston school or even Gonzaga which opens the whole northwest. So they don’t bring in street cred or increase the dollars paid to the other members to improve.
Adding a Gonzaga would make the top better and it hits the other metrics but unfortunately not likely due to other constraints. If I were the Big East commissioner, I would be looking to get a team in a big market like Houston, Dallas, DC even if they aren’t as good because that gets you into the market and generates money for MU and others to invest in the program.
Take Rutgers. They didn’t make the top half of the Big Ten better through their on court performance but they opened to the NY market for the Big Ten which means more money for the schools at the top so they can get better.
I also don’t believe KenPom numbers are the be all end all.
SLU was 53 KenPom this past season, better than 8 Big East Teams. They were a top 20 team multiple years during this past decade.
I don't think KenPom is the end all be all either. You said:
And I did.
Because the question when deciding whether or not to add a team to a conference isn't "would they be successful?" as you've been focusing on. The question is "are they valuable enough to justify slicing the pie an additional time?". I'm not even sure the "would they be successful?" question is relevant at all. Look at Maryland and Rutgers. They had no chance of being successful in the B1G's flagship sport but they were added because they were valuable enough in other ways (whether that is still true is a matter of debate).
I think many teams, including SLU (and including some lesser teams than SLU) would be successful in the Big East. I think very few teams are valuable enough to justify splitting the pot an additional way (while also being within the realm of possibility). UConn was the most obvious one and Val made it happen. Gonzaga, Notre Dame, and Kansas are probably the only other three at this point and the second two are a lot closer to impossible than possible right now. Maybe in the future, SLU or another school continues to improve and makes themselves valuable enough to justify an invite.
We're not running from a bear here. The goal isn't to be better than the worst program in the conference (unless we are allowed to kick out DePaul then maybe we talk) the goal is to be better than the majority of the programs in the conference so that the conference is improved rather than watered down.
My post was regular season league titles which has more value for me even though league tourney titles are important too and obviously get auto bids.
Getting an invite isn’t just about past on court success. Creighton for example, had made 2’of 6 NCAA Tourneys when they joined. They hadn’t made an NCAA 2nd weekend in 40 years at the time. Since joining the Big East, Creighton has a Sweet 16, a Regular Season Big East Title, and 5 NCAA Tourney appearances.
We're not running from a bear here. The goal isn't to be better than the worst program in the conference (unless we are allowed to kick out DePaul then maybe we talk) the goal is to be better than the majority of the programs in the conference so that the conference is improved rather than watered down.
Yes and Creighton still had 8 more appearances than SLU still has all time. That's again the difference, Creighton still had an sheet showing a lot of appearances in their history that brought cache but SLU didn't/doesn't. They're on their way to there but 10 appearances? I'd take Davidson.
This is the entire point.
Adding SLU is like adding another Seton Hall or St. John's. SLU may marginally improve the conference, at best. And aside from people that went there and some people in the St. Louis metro area, I can assure you that nobody else gives one single sh!te at all about SLU basketball.
Adding Gonzaga makes the conference objectively better.
What am I missing here?
Creighton getting into the Big East had more to do with relationships, Tim Lannon, etc..which again is one of several pieces to the puzzle.
::) ::) ::)
This is the entire point.
Adding SLU is like adding another Seton Hall or St. John's. SLU may marginally improve the conference, at best. And aside from people that went there and some people in the St. Louis metro area, I can assure you that nobody else gives one single sh!te at all about SLU basketball.
Adding Gonzaga makes the conference objectively better.
What am I missing here?
Nothing. This is exactly the point.
It would be limited thinking to say SLU’s Big East results would be the same as a select past period of lack of success.
Using Torvik, SLU has finished inside the top 40 three times since 08. Top 20 twice in consecutive seasons (12 and 13). They’ve finished sub 200 three times and sub 100 five times.
Mediocrity defined.
Agreed, but there is no reason for the Big East to buy low with the strategy of boosting its members' profiles. It is the premier basketball-only conference in the country, and there is no to think that won't be true indefinitely. SLU could win three straight national championships and then would still accept an offer to join the Big East before its fourth. So the Big East can afford sit back and say "okay, you consistently show me results that won't need to improve to bring value to the conference and we'll extend an invite." SLU hasn't consistently shown those results to warrant splitting the pie into a 12th piece.
Torvik has SLU projected better than Marquette this upcoming season, after they finished better in his rankings than MUBB the past two seasons, and top 50 the past three seasons. They were also top 20 for 2012, 2013, and top 40 2014.
I agree we all know that but they already had an existing history that was much better than SLU's. It goes back to my earlier point of were not bringing in a team so they can get better and be great we're bringing in someone that proved themselves already over the years and can move up from there. SLU would likely get better by joining but as it is they don't bring basketball prestige. If they were to make a bunch of second weekend runs in a row I'd be hopping on that bandwagon in a heartbeat, if they continue making the tournament for 5 more years I'll hop on the bandwagon but not as they are now.
This. It's what they don't seem to understand about the invite. It's not a case of would SLU compete it's a case of who are they and who have they been thus far. We earned our Big East invite. Butler and Xavier earned theirs. Creighton was admittedly well connected but still had more success 7 years ago than SLU does now. All of us proved it on the court at the lower level and SLU hasn't yet.
They’re not adding Dayton
Nobody is arguing SLU or Dayton over Gonzaga. Gonzaga is obviously the top choice of basketball programs to add.
But the point your missing is that the statement of "outside of alum and a few locals, who gives a ** about SLU basketball" can be applied to every team in the conference, no? Villanova is *maybe* an exception given their success, but no other team in the Big East has a national following and no addition to the conference will bring that, besides Gonzaga, who we mentioned is the clear top choice. But Dayton, SLU, even VCU or WS add to the overall depth of the conference and would lead to greater number of competitive games - which as fans seems like a win for all.
Dayton is more realistic than Gonzaga. The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be if expansion does happen.
Torvik has SLU projected better than Marquette this upcoming season, after they finished better in his rankings than MUBB the past two seasons, and top 50 the past three seasons. They were also top 20 for 2012, 2013, and top 40 2014.
You mostly parroted my initial post but forgot to mention all of the mediocre and bad years.
Once again, mediocrity defined.
SLU doesn’t need to go on NCAA 2nd weekend tourney runs to get invited to the Big East. Other teams didn’t.
Marquette has had 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 years, and MUBB has had lots and lots of advantages over the year’s SLU didn’t have.
I’m saying there is a lot of defensive chest out stuff here for a school with 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus seasons and 3 league titles in 30 seasons.
5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years for Marquette. 3 regular season league titles in 30 plus years. And, that’s better than some other Big East teams.
Marquette has made 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years. I wish it were a national championship annually, but it is what it is.
KO a Sweet 16. Crean a FF. Buzz 3 2nd weekends. 40 plus years.
MUBB hasn’t won an NCAA Tourney game since Buzz left.
I compared this year, one year to one year, just as the other poster did. That isn’t what you did.
Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…
In case you haven’t been reading the thread, several posters have posted as to whether or not SLU would be successful. I understand you don’t have that question, but you aren’t the only poster here posting at me.
SLU right now would not be bottom of the conference, DePaul etc.. That isn’t something with which I agree. You also have used little terms here and there like promotion or keep improving to justify an invite. I think you are overvaluing Big East league Results and individual Big East Team results.
But that's irrelevant. Marquette is already in the Big East. SLU isn't. That is the heart of the matter.
If you're argument is that Marquette has been terrible for the last 7 years... well no kidding, we all know that. But what does that have to do with anything? This isn't a discussion of who is better at basketball SLU or MU. This is about SLU having no business being in the BEAST.
That's not all the other poster did and you know that. He also compared the average ranking during the NBE era and ended it with "Should we do Dayton or SLU or next?". You responded
Given how Lens ended his post and how you responded, any reasonable person would have assumed that you were referring to either the entire post or the average KenPom rankings. I see you are going to claim that your statement was only targeted at one part of Lens's post. Doesn't make the data point any less accurate.
I haven't paid attention to every post but I think most of them have been focused on value rather than potential success. And if they are focusing on potential success than they are focusing on the wrong question as well.
I used the word promotion because the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered. Do you disagree?
I used keep improving to justify an invite because I don't think SLU is valuable enough to split the pie an additional slice. Do you disagree?
And that “consistency” was good enough to get Wojo fired. MUBB couldn’t crack the top 30 since Buzz did it in 2012-2013.
But that's irrelevant. Marquette is already in the Big East. SLU isn't. That is the heart of the matter.
If you're argument is that Marquette has been terrible for the last 7 years... well no kidding, we all know that. But what does that have to do with anything? This isn't a discussion of who is better at basketball SLU or MU. This is about SLU having no business being in the BEAST.
Yup. And if we're really breaking things down, would Creighton be here if UConn wasn't still chasing football dreams when the basketball-only BEast came together? We needed to get to 10, and Creighton was the best game in town, but they're also already the western-most member. I think if UConn had been an original member, these threads would be talking about adding Creighton and Gonzaga, and the SLU conversation would be a distant, "yeah maybe if we eventually go to 14" conversation.
This is why SLU and Dayton are not viable additions. Then was then and now is now. And yes, SLU does need to go to 2nd weekend NCAA games to even sniff a possible invite to the BE some day in the future. It does not matter one bit where the current teams were when the NBE was formed. The here and now of it is the BE should be very careful and picky about extending invites because we can be.
Imagine if UCONN had given up on FB back then. The BE could have taken both UCONN AND Creighton to get to 10 and left De Paul to fend for itself.
Lastly, in regard to TAMU's comment about the NCAA rules about a school splitting bball and the non revenue sports- yeah, I know its a problem but I'm optimistic that they would give in. Its light years apart from that rule and NIL fiasco but I think the humiliation of a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling, the scathing comments by at least one of the judges and the broad media coverage of the NCAA getting their nose rubbed in dog sh!t will make them adverse to defending the BS rule that does not apply to FB.
Nobody is arguing SLU or Dayton over Gonzaga. Gonzaga is obviously the top choice of basketball programs to add.
But the point your missing is that the statement of "outside of alum and a few locals, who gives a ** about SLU basketball" can be applied to every team in the conference, no? Villanova is *maybe* an exception given their success, but no other team in the Big East has a national following and no addition to the conference will bring that, besides Gonzaga, who we mentioned is the clear top choice. But Dayton, SLU, even VCU or WS add to the overall depth of the conference and would lead to greater number of competitive games - which as fans seems like a win for all.
This is why SLU and Dayton are not viable additions. Then was then and now is now. And yes, SLU does need to go to 2nd weekend NCAA games to even sniff a possible invite to the BE some day in the future. It does not matter one bit where the current teams were when the NBE was formed. The here and now of it is the BE should be very careful and picky about extending invites because we can be.
Imagine if UCONN had given up on FB back then. The BE could have taken both UCONN AND Creighton to get to 10 and left De Paul to fend for itself.
Lastly, in regard to TAMU's comment about the NCAA rules about a school splitting bball and the non revenue sports- yeah, I know its a problem but I'm optimistic that they would give in. Its light years apart from that rule and NIL fiasco but I think the humiliation of a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling, the scathing comments by at least one of the judges and the broad media coverage of the NCAA getting their nose rubbed in dog sh!t will make them adverse to defending the BS rule that does not apply to FB.
The idea that all NCAA bylaws are irrelevant because the SC ruled a certain way on some of their rules, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
SLU doesn’t need to go on NCAA 2nd weekend tourney runs to get invited to the Big East. Other teams didn’t.
It depends on the money.
Actually they did. For all intents and purposes, the Big East in its current form is only 8 years old and had 10 founding members. You can argue that SLU should have been one of the founding members but they weren't and that's in the past. Since then, the Big East has only invited one new member and they brought with them 4 championships, 5 final fours, 11 elite eights, 18 Sweet 16s, 33 NCAAT appearances, 10 conference tournament championships, and 31 regular season conference championships. That's the level the Big East is looking to add to at this point. Their next addition is probably not quite that impressive, but that's the level or program the Big East is interested in adding.
So that means you do agree that the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered, so my use of the word promotion was fair.
I don't know if that mean you do or don't agree on SLU being valuable enough to be added to the Big East. I don't know either, I guess it depends on what Fox thinks. My guess is the money probably says SLU isn't valuable enough.
“The past is the past.” Much of this entire board lives in the past.
It’s not about if SLU is better than Marquette in basketball. It’s partly about (for some because they have said so) if SLU would be successful in it. Newer Big East teams have been more successful in it than they were prior to it.
Man, I cannot wait for the season to start so we can go back to arguing about on-court issues again. All this off-season stuff has just been one circular argument after another. We need new material.
I haven't seen the issue of divisions mentioned, and I'm not going to comb through the thread because my mind is numb from these repeated useless SLU talking points. But if the BE picks up SLU/Dayton, MU might get stuck in the "BE West" division, with more games against Creighton, Butler, Xavier, DePaul, SLU/Dayton, and fewer games against Villanova, UConn, SJU, SH, G-town, and Providence.
What does the rest of the Big East get?SlightlymoreTVmoney?
“The past is the past.” Much of this entire board lives in the past.
I believe SLU would accept a Big East invite, yes. But I also believe they are content being in the A-10, yes. They have a few bottom teams that don’t make an effort in basketball that affect their overall numbers some years.
And that “consistency” was good enough to get Wojo fired. MUBB couldn’t crack the top 30 since Buzz did it in 2012-2013.
We'll agree to disagree, Equalizer.I would agree though I would say ND is ‘very’ unlikely as well. As to Dayton and SLU, what if Fox and the membership should come to the conclusion that the BE should expand for that next contract? From a BB only perspective, Dayton would be far more attractive to me than SLU. But, I would rather stay at 11 unless it were one of the first 3 above.
Gonzaga is one of the half-dozen best "national brands" in basketball today, not to mention a highly successful program over multiple decades now.
Saying the Big East would like to add a program like that is not the same as saying the Big East "needs" Gonzaga, which seems to be what your long list of talking points is addressing. We don't.
I would hope the Big East would rather add a great program that will make everybody else up their game instead of a mediocre program that others would feel, "No sweat, we're better than them." Put me in the camp of those who would much rather stay at 11 than add a Dayton or SLU.
Personally, my list for expansion is:
1. Notre Dame (unlikely to happen)
2. Kansas (very unlikely to happen)
3. Gonzaga (seems possible)
4. There is no 4. Just stay at 11 teams.
Not accurate, like it or not Wojo did hit the top 25 rankings
https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/marquette-ranked-then-now
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2019/01/28/marquette-boasts-two-top-10-basketball-teams/2698925002/
We'll agree to disagree, Equalizer.
Gonzaga is one of the half-dozen best "national brands" in basketball today, not to mention a highly successful program over multiple decades now.
Saying the Big East would like to add a program like that is not the same as saying the Big East "needs" Gonzaga, which seems to be what your long list of talking points is addressing. We don't.
FIFY. Honestly, this all that matters to the decision makers.
A lot of posts for what boils down to this. The Big East would only expand if it made financial sense to do so.
We can use all kinds of other reasons to discuss what that means for the competitiveness of the league, but the decision makers aren’t going to care. The reason people talk about Gonzaga is mainly due to the fact that they might be a brand a TV Network would view as worth adding money to the deal or future offers.
I have to imagine there’s a financial benefit, or at least it’s even, for each school when UCONN joined.
UConn basketball is a brand. UConn won 4 national titles in a 15 year span and put a bunch of players into the NBA. That was a situation where it benefited both sides. UConn returned to its roots and go to play natural rivals and at MSG. The Big East got a borderline blue blood and one of the best women’s programs in the nation.
Gonzaga is a brand. Kansas is a brand. Notre Dame is a brand. The rest are just inventory. If it’s about inventory, the Big East is simply chasing dollars like the AAC. Inventory isn’t going to move “the needle”.
Ask yourself if inventory has helped the ACC. The league has been as low as it has been in a long time and that’s even with adding basketball schools like Syracuse and Louisville. It’s a bloated mess. The football isn’t any better outside the unicorn Clemson.
Adding a brand helps the Big East. Forget what happens when Mark Few leaves. It’s a brand now and joining the Big East will be because they earned it by becoming a brand. Butler became a brand. The most money comes from adding a Gonzaga or Kansas or Notre Dame. The most success for the league, a true basketball league, comes from adding great basketball brands. Volume may add a few bucks but long term, it’s shortsighted imo
So if I follow the argument:
The ACC added brands and they became a bloated mess. Therefore the Big East should do the same.
I'll gladly admit MU and others have greatly underperformed. But you don't remedy that by adding other mediocre programs. Expansion in the non network model (i.e. no BTN or SEC Network aspirations) is about improving the television content. We're on a national network that wants national appeal.You certainly do not improve underperforming teams by adding better teams to their conference. Adding Gonzaga may raise the status of the Big East just like adding Uconn did. It also lowers MU chances of having a good season. I am not sure why MU would want Gonzaga to join the conference.
- UConn is a near blue blood that did that
- Kansas and ND do that but they are probably not options
- Gonzaga does it
That's the list. There is zero reason to add Dayton or SLU. Sorry, it's not happening.
80-100?
SLU was 53 KenPom this past season, better than 8 Big East Teams. They were a top 20 team multiple years during this past decade.
Using Torvik, SLU has finished inside the top 40 three times since 08. Top 20 twice in consecutive seasons (12 and 13). They’ve finished sub 200 three times and sub 100 five times.
Mediocrity defined.
Any given year a team can be competitive or not. It isn't about a single season or a compact string of seasons but history of success. A history of relevancy in the national conversation makes a good conference partner. SLU hasn't been to the sweet 16 or later since 1957. SLU didn't make an appearance in the NCAA tournament from 1957 - 1994. By comparison, MU was in the Elite 8 in 2013. The last time SLU was in the Top 20 MU was there the year before and in 2019.
It isn't about whether a team can compete with the rest of conference every few years. It is what they bring to make the conference better. Would SLUs sub-200s make the conference better?
SLU doesn't bring the street cred for the casual fan to tune in. Does SLU vs. any current Big East team bring in additional viewers? No.
You may say DePaul might be equally suspect as a member but they bring in a large market which appeals to Fox. STL is not Chicago market.
.
Marquette has made 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years. I wish it were a national championship annually, but it is what it is. That is 5 more second weekends than SLU. You have to go back to 1957 for a SLU Second weekend
DePaul has made the NCAA Tourney twice in the 21st century, and you have to go back over 30 years since they made it more regularly.Great, we agree that aren't good but does SLU bring in a large metro viewing marketing
Georgetown has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend 3 times in the past 25 years. Three times more that SLU in the same period. Georgetown is a marquee brand in college basketball. Does SLU have the same creds? Does SLU bring in a large metro viewing marketing[/color]
St. John’s has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend twice in 35 years. Two times more than SLU. Does SLU bring in the largest TV market?
Seton Hall has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend once in 30 years. Two times more than SLU. Does SLU bring in the largest TV market?
MUBB hasn’t won an NCAA Tourney game since Buzz left.Neither has SLU. Last NCAA win was 2014. Buzz's last year
I explained in much detail earlier in this thread specifics as to why things are different now.
1 National Title
1 Runner up
Three Final Fours
7 Elite 8
16 Sweet 16s
33 NCAA Tournament Appearances
Vs
0 NT
0 RU
0 FF
1 E8
2 S16 (last in 1957)
10 NCAA Tourney Appearances.
The first is relevant across multiple generations while the latter isn't relevant to anyone.
You are taking past results and saying those will be future results.
I explained in much detail earlier in this thread specifics as to why things are different now.
ACC added for football, not basketball. The Big East is doing it only for basketball. And likely, the only brand available is Gonzaga because Kansas isn’t giving up football like UConn and Notre Dame is resting where it wants to.
My argument is volume versus brand when it comes to basketball expansion. Adding volume dilutes the league. Adding a big brand like Gonzaga is a plus.
Part of the Syracuse brand was the Big East. Quite frankly, Pitt didn’t add anything other than being a partner in joining the ACC. Has moving to 15 teams really helped the ACC? They did have a year where 9 schools made the dance and a year with 3 1-seeds but those were UNC, Duke and Virginia, classic ACC teams.
Adding schools like St. Louis and Dayton don’t improve the Big East other than inventory. Gonzaga makes the Big East better immediately.
Gonzaga makes the Big East better only if you ignore the impact they have on the existing 11 teams.
The extent to which they win makes every other team worse. You wind up "improving" the league, but it comes at the expense of the 11 individual members.
Gonzaga makes the Big East better only if you ignore the impact they have on the existing 11 teams.I don't think Texas, OU or the SEC view the world like you do. Maybe you're smarter. We'll see.
The extent to which they win makes every other team worse. You wind up "improving" the league, but it comes at the expense of the 11 individual members.
I can’t believe this means that much to people
Gonzaga certainly has enormous appeal. i do not see Mark Few wanting to trek across the country for every road game. Geography just not a fit.
To the contrary--Mark Few is very much in favor of joining the Big East
The last time MU was in super league, we had a season where we went 9-9 and finished in 11th place.
We made the Sweet 16.
Rising Tides fellas…
You are taking past results and saying those will be future results.
I explained in much detail earlier in this thread specifics as to why things are different now.
But his president and AD are not.
Would it make you feel better if I told you that should Fox and the BE want a larger conference to stave off future conference re-alignment related issues, and they added 3 teams, I'd be ok with a combination of Gonzaga, Wichita State, and SLU?
Correct. Also, when has Few commented publicly about joining the BE?
he has, but "anonymously." He has his guys he feeds stuff to on the down low. His strongest statements about conferences were that other schools in the WCC has to step up their games and improve their programs. Schools responded, particularly Santa Clara, San Francisco, and LMU.
Pres and AD are the deciding factors. Boeheim was adamantly opposed to going to the ACC. How did that work out?
I’d add Pacific too.
As to Syracuse, that AD and President were fired.
But not for joining the ACC but rather being complicit in 10+ years of rules violations and the Bernie Fine coverups.
Pacific hired Stoudamire but hasn't actually made real investments in basketball. Santa Clara is making the biggest leap, finally tapping into the Silicon Valley money and building ridiculous new facilities. https://university-operations.scu.edu/planning-and-projects/campus-projects/athletics-excellence-center/
LMU is also planning a new facility and USF poured a lot of money into a big renovation of their arena. When Scholl retired Craig Pintens should be a candidate with what he's doing out there.
Past behavior is the best predictor of future results.
You talked about how committed SLU is funding athletics and the results of that have been one NCAA tournament since 2014. Are they willing to spend as much as or more Marquette? Including other sports?
What happens when the current SLU administration turns over? Are they going to continue that investment? Historically they have not.
What SLU done on the court, or even off for that matter, to earn a seat at the table?
But not for joining the ACC but rather being complicit in 10+ years of rules violations and the Bernie Fine coverups.
Another DUI and Few's opinion on the Big East won't matter.
One is a fluke. Two is a pattern.
I appreciate the questions and sincere discussion. Let’s take a look.
First, anyone that knows the name Larry Biondi could tell you entertaining stories for days. (He’s SLU’s former 25 year school President). Some of the stories are legendary. He not only wasn’t interested in sports, he went out of his way to hinder sports often.
School Budgets were posted earlier in this thread by me. (Very few schools spend as much or more than Marquette). What SLU has done, which is very significant for them, is raise their budget to the same as Xavier’s budget right now, while still not being in a Power 5/Big East league. I am confident that would increase even more in a league such as the Big East. Getting to this point is significantly different than anything in their past. Within the current 15 years they have 3 new building projects worth $125 Million, all on campus, all for Athletics. Their most recently announced 2 projects were expected to be announced 2 years ago. It was delayed due to the pandemic.
Rick Majerus recruited Richard Chaiftez and vice versa. Chaifetz has already spent $30 Million. Additionally, he was one of many donors who gave a $1 Million each to their project announced this week. Chaifetz owns an Employee Benefits company based in Chicago. He’s very out front, rah rah type, sits courtside for games. He’s long wanted to own an NBA team.
Jim Kavanaugh, is a SLU Soccer alum and billionaire. He is part owner of the St. Louis Blues hockey team, (They have a lot of owners), and their new MLS Soccer team, as well as a few other sports entities there. His company (Worldwide Technologies or WWT) also is a big sports advertiser, and does a lot with the local Nascar stuff there as well as the Senior PGA event there. He’s a big SLU and SLU basketball booster. He also wrote a $Million check and he’s behind the new $5 Million SLU Soccer building there that will be completed in December.
The lead donor of their new $20 Million Student Athlete building, Bob O’ Loughlin, is a developer of hotels and hospitality, new Union Station etc...
All of these represent newer SLU booster/donors. They still have some of the past ones. Some of these also sit on SLU’s Board of Trustees, which is also not something of the past. The past had a very Biondi friendly board of trustees there.
SLU’s current school President came from, wait for it…Dayton. He worked his way up at Dayton for 24 years. Fred Pestello is friendly, nerdy, Academic type who attends a lot of SLU sporting events in a wide variety of sports. A Biondi sighting at sporting event was compared to Big Foot sightings. Pestello has been there for 7 years.
SLU already often plays several Big East schools in non-revenue sports on a regular basis. Xavier, Creighton, Butler, Marquette, DePaul, are common opponents, shorter travel distances, less costs, for non revenue sports.
There will always be changes and turnover eventually in any role. You try to avoid the Pilarz/Williams situations as much as possible. Changes in President, BOT, boosters, has been significant since Biondi has left.
Their AD Chris May was picked by Majerus. He is roughly similar to Pestello in that he is an affable nerdy type. Neither of those two are charismatic salesmen. That’s more of a Travis Ford role. Ford understands selling, marketing well. He’s been in both the A-10 and a Power 5 League. He’a also from small town Kentucky, played at Mizzou/Kentucky, and his son is a recent student at Mizzou). He’s a big St. Louis sports fan since a kid. So, as long as he wins enough, he’s pretty entrenched there a while. But he has to win enough and he knows that.
Ford has been able to recruit the St. Louis area for players. Many coaches including Majerus struggled to do that over the years. Hiring Corey Tate has been very effective. SLU also hired a couple of other good assistants. One of those left for St. John’s and Mike Anderson, Van Macon. (He’s a New Yorker)
Other non revenue sports? (I follow Marquette’s non revenue sports and sometimes post about them)
Soccer is big there. Their Men’s team is #4 Nationally in Top Drawer Soccer. The Women’s team has several recent NCAA Tourneys. As is the case with other sports, coaching matters. And they have two good coaches who are there for the long haul. Their Men’s Soccer has a lot of those 1960’s 1970’s Marquette hoops types fans, Glory Days in the wink of a young girl’s eye. They have won the most National Titles but it’s been a long while. Competing for them is the expectation.
Lisa Stone (Wisconsin) is SLU’s Women’s Basketball Coach. She’s very solid, consistent, WNIT type of level.
They had a good volleyball coach (and results, 3 NCAA Tourneys) a while back (Ann Kordes) but she took a job at Louisville. In non revenue sports, in non power 5 leagues, it can be challenging.
They have baseball, (and softball) Good baseball coach, Darin Hendrickson, limited resources. He’s won the A-10 5 times, some NCAA Tourneys etc…If he had even more resources. they’d be even better.
And so on. Adding more resources in a new league will only help the non revenue sports.
That should answer some of your questions.
I don't think Texas, OU or the SEC view the world like you do. Maybe you're smarter. We'll see.
Oh, I think they view it exactly as I do.
Texas and OU are the newcomers. The losers will be the existing SEC members.
If Gonzaga joins the Big East, the big winners are Val and Gonzaga. The losers are the 11 other members of the conference.
Think you're really overestimating Marquette as a program if you think we are the equivalent of Texas football.analogy. Nothing more, BLM was making an analogy. He’s not saying MU hoops is = Texas fball. (Although Texas football ain’t sh!t)
Oh, I think they view it exactly as I do.
Texas and OU are the newcomers. The losers will be the existing SEC members.
If Gonzaga joins the Big East, the big winners are Val and Gonzaga. The losers are the 11 other members of the conference.
Looks like Old Dominion, Marshall, Southern Miss and James Madison will be going to the Sun Belt. While James Madison would move up to FBS, the other three would be joining from Conference USA leaving them with only five members: Florida International, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Louisiana Tech and UTEP.
Poor UTEP. They were abandoned in the WAC by seven of their former conference members when they formed the Mountain West. The other two members left behind were eventually invited, Fresno (all sports) and Hawaii (football only). Now Conference USA is crumbling around them and there looks to be no Mountain West lifeline coming. (Unless Boise goes to the Big 12.)
Looks like Old Dominion, Marshall, Southern Miss and James Madison will be going to the Sun Belt. While James Madison would move up to FBS, the other three would be joining from Conference USA leaving them with only five members: Florida International, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Louisiana Tech and UTEP.
Poor UTEP. They were abandoned in the WAC by seven of their former conference members when they formed the Mountain West. The other two members left behind were eventually invited, Fresno (all sports) and Hawaii (football only). Now Conference USA is crumbling around them and there looks to be no Mountain West lifeline coming. (Unless Boise goes to the Big 12.)
I'm honestly surprised UTEP got left out in favor of those 4. Solid program in a large metro area. I guess no one wants to travel that far.
So does CUSA go Northeast and grab UConn, UMass, and Army? Take in Liberty? Are there other FCS powers ready to make the jump? Would NDST jump up to FBS? If they did is that too far outside CUSA's footprint? Is Sam Houston State ready to jump up? Does UTEP stay or go independent?
Oh, I think they view it exactly as I do.I know reading is a lost art these days. ".. and the SEC" Was in my post. So the SEC members see it like you do and stupidly accepted OU and Texas?
Texas and OU are the newcomers. The losers will be the existing SEC members.
If Gonzaga joins the Big East, the big winners are Val and Gonzaga. The losers are the 11 other members of the conference.
I'm honestly surprised UTEP got left out in favor of those 4. Solid program in a large metro area. I guess no one wants to travel that far.
So does CUSA go Northeast and grab UConn, UMass, and Army? Take in Liberty? Are there other FCS powers ready to make the jump? Would NDST jump up to FBS? If they did is that too far outside CUSA's footprint? Is Sam Houston State ready to jump up? Does UTEP stay or go independent?
I appreciate the questions and sincere discussion. Let’s take a look.
First, anyone that knows the name Larry Biondi, SJ, could tell you entertaining stories for days. (He’s SLU’s former 25 year school President). Some of the stories are legendary. He not only wasn’t interested in sports, he went out of his way to hinder sports often. He did a lot of good things for their school. They weren’t sports related. He had a difficult personality.
School Budgets were posted earlier in this thread by me. (Very few schools spend as much or more than Marquette). What SLU has done, which is very significant for them, is raise their budget to the same as Xavier’s budget right now, while still not being in a Power 5/Big East league. I am confident that would increase even more in a league such as the Big East. Getting to this point is significantly different than anything in their past. Within the current 15 years they have 3 new building projects worth $125 Million, all on campus, all for Athletics. Their most recently announced 2 projects were expected to be announced 2 years ago. It was delayed due to the pandemic.
Rick Majerus recruited Richard Chaiftez and vice versa. Chaifetz has already spent $30 Million. Additionally, he was one of many donors who gave a $1 Million each to their project announced this week. Chaifetz owns an Employee Benefits company based in Chicago. He’s very out front, rah rah type, sits courtside for games. He’s long wanted to own an NBA team.
Jim Kavanaugh, is a SLU Soccer alum and billionaire. He is part owner of the St. Louis Blues hockey team, (They have a lot of owners), and their new MLS Soccer team, as well as a few other sports entities there. His company (Worldwide Technologies or WWT) also is a big sports advertiser, and does a lot with the local Nascar stuff there as well as the Senior PGA event there. He’s a big SLU and SLU basketball booster. He also wrote a $Million check and he’s behind the new $5 Million SLU Soccer building there that will be completed in December.
The lead donor of their new $20 Million Student Athlete building, Bob O’ Loughlin, is a developer of hotels and hospitality, new Union Station etc...
All of these represent newer SLU booster/donors. They still have some of the past ones. Some of these also sit on SLU’s Board of Trustees, which is also not something of the past. The past had a very Biondi friendly board of trustees there.
SLU’s current school President came from, wait for it…Dayton. He worked his way up at Dayton for 24 years. Fred Pestello is friendly, nerdy, Academic type who attends a lot of SLU sporting events in a wide variety of sports. A Biondi sighting at sporting event was compared to Big Foot sightings. Pestello has been there for 7 years.
SLU already often plays several Big East schools in non-revenue sports on a regular basis. Xavier, Creighton, Butler, Marquette, DePaul, are common opponents, shorter travel distances, less costs, for non revenue sports.
There will always be changes and turnover eventually in any role. You try to avoid the Pilarz/Williams situations as much as possible. Changes in President, BOT, boosters, has been significant since Biondi has left.
Their AD Chris May was picked by Majerus. He is roughly similar to Pestello in that he is an affable nerdy type. Neither of those two are charismatic salesmen. That’s more of a Travis Ford role. Ford understands selling, marketing well. He’s been in both the A-10 and a Power 5 League. He’a also from small town Kentucky, played at Mizzou/Kentucky, and his son is a recent student at Mizzou). He’s a big St. Louis sports fan since a kid. So, as long as he wins enough, he’s pretty entrenched there a while. But he has to win enough and he knows that.
Ford has been able to recruit the St. Louis area for players. Many coaches including Majerus struggled to do that over the years. Hiring Corey Tate has been very effective. SLU also hired a couple of other good assistants. One of those left for St. John’s and Mike Anderson, Van Macon. (He’s a New Yorker)
Other non revenue sports? (I follow Marquette’s non revenue sports and sometimes post about them)
Soccer is big there. Their Men’s team is #4 Nationally in Top Drawer Soccer. The Women’s team has several recent NCAA Tourneys. As is the case with other sports, coaching matters. And they have two good coaches who are there for the long haul. Their Men’s Soccer has a lot of those 1960’s 1970’s Marquette hoops types fans, Glory Days in the wink of a young girl’s eye. They have won the most National Titles but it’s been a long while. Competing for them is the expectation.
Lisa Stone (Wisconsin) is SLU’s Women’s Basketball Coach. She’s very solid, consistent, WNIT type of level.
They had a good volleyball coach (and results, 3 NCAA Tourneys) a while back (Ann Kordes) but she took a job at Louisville. In non revenue sports, in non power 5 leagues, it can be challenging.
They have baseball, (and softball) Good baseball coach, Darin Hendrickson, limited resources. He’s won the A-10 5 times, some NCAA Tourneys etc…If he had even more resources. they’d be even better.
And so on. Adding more resources in a new league will only help the non revenue sports.
That should answer some of your questions.
In 2008, SLU opened their $80m new arena. Since then they had 4 tournament appearances. 3 of the 4 came from the Rick Majerus’ recruits. They hired Travis Ford in 2016 and he has one tourney appearance. Wojo had three.
In 2020, they were 23-8 but fourth in the A10. Tells you about the A10. Travis is entering his 6th season which means he is close to either jumping ship or being let go. In his best year, he got run over by VA Tech in the first round.
All this is to say, history shows that SLU hasn’t jumped to P6 level even with the investment. Not to say they won’t have a good run at some point or be better than history has shown.
But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter anyway, the Big East is the premier basketball only conference. They don’t have to take anyone so they can be extremely selective. An invite is extremely beneficial for SLU but for the other side it is not. SLU will always be there so the BE can wait to see if the SLU investment actually changes anything. Right now SLU is not a marquee brand in basketball unlike Gonzaga who has made the tourney every year since 1999 and has two runner-ups. I don’t see Gonzaga as working out. Unless Fox sees STL as a completely untapped revenue market it ain’t happening and until SLU has a Gonzaga like run, the A10 is a good place to prove themselves.
I have always assumed that St. Louis is a likely candidate should the Big East expand. Shoothoops has made me pray the Big East doesn't expand.
In 2008, SLU opened their $80m new arena. Since then they had 4 tournament appearances. 3 of the 4 came from the Rick Majerus’ recruits. They hired Travis Ford in 2016 and he has one tourney appearance. Wojo had three.
In 2020, they were 23-8 but fourth in the A10. Tells you about the A10. Travis is entering his 6th season which means he is close to either jumping ship or being let go. In his best year, he got run over by VA Tech in the first round.
All this is to say, history shows that SLU hasn’t jumped to P6 level even with the investment. Not to say they won’t have a good run at some point or be better than history has shown.
But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter anyway, the Big East is the premier basketball only conference. They don’t have to take anyone so they can be extremely selective. An invite is extremely beneficial for SLU but for the other side it is not. SLU will always be there so the BE can wait to see if the SLU investment actually changes anything. Right now SLU is not a marquee brand in basketball unlike Gonzaga who has made the tourney every year since 1999 and has two runner-ups. I don’t see Gonzaga as working out. Unless Fox sees STL as a completely untapped revenue market it ain’t happening and until SLU has a Gonzaga like run, the A10 is a good place to prove themselves.
Again, you are saying past results equals future results. Several of the newer Big East teams have fared better in the Big East, than prior to it, including Marquette.
In 6 seasons prior to joining the Big East, MUBB had 2 NCAA Tourney Appearances. All of those seasons were played under Tom Crean. (Deane 2 our of 5 seasons) (O’Neill 2 out of 5 seasons) (Dukiet 0 of 3) (Majerus 0 of 3).
Al McGuire Center opened in 2003. Budgets, facilities, other things helped. Fr. Wild, Bill Cords etc…so many things that are either assets or non hindrances.
After joining, Marquette had 3 straight NCAA Tourney appearances until Crean left. Then, MUBB continued that streak to 8 by making the NCAA Tourney 5 straight seasons under Buzz.
(This is where some people come in and talk about 44 years ago. But it isn’t about 44 years ago. It’s about the future.)
Creighton has finished in the top 3 of the Big East 6 out of 8 seasons since joining the league. They had their first NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend in 47 years this past year.
Prior?
Creighton missed the NCAA Tourney 4 of their previous 6 seasons.
Dana Altman had missed the NCAA Tourney 5 of his final 7 seasons at Creighton in the MVC before leaving for Oregon.
Since? Altman and Oregon have finished 1 or 2 in Pac 12 in 7 of 11 seasons. 5 NCAA 2nd weekends, Elite 8, a Final Four. In 16 seasons as Creighton’s coach, Altman made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend exactly zero times in the MVC.
As I’ve said before, SLU certainly has to keep doing its part on and off of the floor. They had something going with Moser and Majerus, (in spite of Biondi and others, who didn’t leave until late 2013.) that didn’t extend longer due to Rick’s health and Moser getting his own HC position at Loyola. Rick was adamant that Crews get the SLU HC job. That didn’t work out so well for them, and the removal change was too slow and too loyal. Ford came in and had to start over from that. He turned it around and made the NCAA’s his 3rd season, and has had had two solid seasons since. He’ll need to go another step there regardless of league to keep his job after the next few years. But several things have changed off of the court during his time at SLU, just as several things changed at MUBB off of the court, around the time of TC.
Again, all of what they are doing recently and doing moving forward is not in a Power 5/Big East league. It’s pretty easy to see why they are a strong candidate. Schools increase investment and expectation based as their league $ increases. And as I showed in the examples, on court results increased after the league changed too. What stands out are clearing many hurdles and making a lot of investment, raising budgets, etc…and those things matter.
Expansion and realignment discussions happen when they happen. Big East Commissioner brought it up, therefore the discussion is now or current, just as they were now or current the last few times it happened the past 15 years.
History matters both from brand as well as predictingMarquette had some good years, but was really not a big time program before McGuire.
future results.
I think the Big East adds at least three teams, if they expand. In my opinion they will need to match the size of the P5 conferences, which are likely to be 14 to 16 teams. They risk being left out, if these conference decide to have their own tournament.
Marquette had some good years, but was really not a big time program before McGuire.
UW sucked most of the 20th century. Has been really good in the 21st.
DePaul was great and now sucks.
History matters, but not a s much as you might think.
I think the Big East adds at least three teams, if they expand. In my opinion they will need to match the size of the P5 conferences, which are likely to be 14 to 16 teams. They risk being left out, if these conference decide to have their own tournament.
The big football conferences do not need an 11 team basketball conference, if they go it on their own. Going to 14 with Gonzaga helps. Just adding St. Louis does not. In theory a 14 team Big East means more TV money.
I of course do not know, if adding teams will help. The football conferences may just see it as an opportunity to diminish the Big East, if they leave them out. I would hate to see the Power 5 have their own tournament. However, if they do I want the Big East to be included. I do not see that happening, if we stay at 11 teams. Why would they to want to share money with an 11 team Big East conference? It would be much wiser to get Villanova to join them and leave the rest of the chumps out.
How good is the A10? Is it as good as it was 10 years ago? No because all of the good teams with a brand were asked to join any other conference. They have 14 mediocre teams. No one sees any of those teams competing for a National Title. Could a team make a run…sure. But the brand of the conference took a major hit.
Is the AAC as good of a conference as it was 10years ago? No because they lost their three best teams and replaced with a quantity on mediocre.
Is the Big XII as good? No. Is it because the lost their two best teams at the time or the two best brands? They replaced those two teams with the #6 team in the country. To the casual fan are they better?
The number of teams matter only for the amount of content. The quality or perception of quality of the product or the number of people in the market determines the cost per unit.
What makes a brand? A history of being good. When the BE was looking to expand SLU was available why did they take MU or DePaul instead? Better Brands.
MU has been relevant in 1970s and 1980s when Al was a TV commentator. Important because that was the major start of cable TV and the rise of sports monetary value. They were relevant in the late 90s, 2000s and 2010s. Along with others they showed they could elevate Conf USA as a brand.
On Fox’s New Year’s Day games, would the casual fan more likely switch from Football to Marquette/Nova or SLU/Nova.
To be relevant the Brand has to be good so let SLU build in the A10 and then take them. They are in a conference where the majority are mediocre so be the best if that and then we can talk.
The point of the conference call outs is perception of the conference brand matters. If the Big East is seen as Nova and a bunch of mediocre the conference suffers.
IMO Ideal Conference Additions/Realignment
Assuming we keep all of the current teams and expanding to 14. Bringing back Syracuse, adding Gonzaga, and then either Wichita State or Loyola Chicago.
Realistically, Syracuse seems out of our reach but would just make things right in the world again. Maybe Memphis would be a fun program to throw into the mix.
LUC and Wichita both have had their years dominating the MVC. Wichita made the jump to the American so that would be a similar move bringing them over like we did with UCONN's return.
Would've loved bringing Cinci back into the fold but Big 12 snatched them up. I think there are definitely programs out there and as the big football conferences start growing, I think it would be in our intererst to as well.
Fox's interest in expanding aside (as we do not know for sure if they are in favor of expansion), there is something to be said in increasing the value for the Big East in terms of tournament bids and seeds that inevitably improve our tournament credits over time. The Big East has been very fortunate to be living off the cash cow that is Villanova in tournament credits for the past several years (not unlike the C7 living off of Marquette when we first separated and helped reform the Big East).
With a round robin set-up, cannibalization of our teams does go into effect. It is great for TV, but in terms of maximizing our bids and seeds, it is less than ideal. Moving forward, we will be the lone power conference to employ a R/R set-up. Conference play alone is a zero sum game - for every win, there is a loss. By adding just one school, and moving to 12 total teams, we eliminate the R/R and increase the number of teams that can reach 10 or 11 wins in conference. Our third or fourth place team could average one more win in-conference, at the expense of our eleventh or twelfth place teams.
Does this mean adding any team for the sake of getting to 12? Absolutely not. However, there is value for the conference in increasing our number of bids and seeds annually, even if it is a slight bump. Outside of Villanova, and Xavier one year, the Big East has not been successful in regularly securing top seeds in the tournament - which inevitably maximize opportunities to win games in the NCAAT.
The RR format does not impact the perceived strength of conference so if you add crappy teams it will drag down the strength of the conference during non-conference play which gives a reason to take fewer teams. Being .500 in a good conference is better than 11-7 in a crappy one.
In order for your theory to play out, the team we bring in would have to be crappy 11 or 12 or one of the other teams would need to become crappy because the 3 and 4 teams need to beat them twice. The only way adding teams in the world you describe is not the RR but if you subscribe to the belief that no more than 50% of a conference should get an invite so by having 12 teams during a good year would mean 6 bids versus the 5.
Fox's interest in expanding aside (as we do not know for sure if they are in favor of expansion), there is something to be said in increasing the value for the Big East in terms of tournament bids and seeds that inevitably improve our tournament credits over time. The Big East has been very fortunate to be living off the cash cow that is Villanova in tournament credits for the past several years (not unlike the C7 living off of Marquette when we first separated and helped reform the Big East).
With a round robin set-up, cannibalization of our teams does go into effect. It is great for TV, but in terms of maximizing our bids and seeds, it is less than ideal. Moving forward, we will be the lone power conference to employ a R/R set-up. Conference play alone is a zero sum game - for every win, there is a loss. By adding just one school, and moving to 12 total teams, we eliminate the R/R and increase the number of teams that can reach 10 or 11 wins in conference. Our third or fourth place team could average one more win in-conference, at the expense of our eleventh or twelfth place teams.
Does this mean adding any team for the sake of getting to 12? Absolutely not. However, there is value for the conference in increasing our number of bids and seeds annually, even if it is a slight bump. Outside of Villanova, and Xavier one year, the Big East has not been successful in regularly securing top seeds in the tournament - which inevitably maximize opportunities to win games in the NCAAT.
Our .500 (in conference) teams either get really bad seeds or do not make the tournament at all. Statistically speaking, .500 (in conference) teams from larger power conferences are better than our's (in Big East) (in terms of tournament bids and seeds). Non-con SOS is great until you get into conference play, because it becomes a zero sum game. It's a big reason why so many of our tournament seeds are in the 7-11 range, creating likelihood of not surviving to second weekend.
Before UConn was added, the league averaged five (half) of teams with greater than .500 in conference records. At 12 teams, we could add a sixth team to get to over .500 mark (10 wins) which significantly increase likelihood of adding another NCAAT team annually, not to mention improve the average seeding.
You just made my point. A .500 team in a good conference gets in while an 11-7 in a crappy one does not. It might be a bad seed but they get in before the crappy conference team.
If you are .500 you should be in the 7-11 range. If you are seen as a great conference you get in and you get the best seeds. Right now the Big East is good but not great. It is also seen as Nova so usually they get a high seed.
The conf schedule is not zero sum for SOS but it is zero sum for conference strength. For example, MU playing Nova increases our strength of schedule, etc. but it doesn’t change the Conference rating because the impact of one team winning is negated by the other team losing. Conference rankings are determined in the non-conference. So we want better teams.
The important part about your 5 teams above .500 comment is if you water down the bottom half of the conference those team will lose in non-conference. The Big East would be seen as weaker so you aren’t going to get the 6th in at .500 and you might even lose a spot. Again bad conference then fewer teams in. Last year the Big East wasn’t good and they got 4 teams in with GU BET run. MVC got two in and a 12-6 in conference team didn’t make it.
UConn on the other hand should be a team in the top half of the conference making us stronger in non-conference and making it more likely a team gets in.
With all that said there are only a few teams which would make the top half better. The options the Big East has to fish from are the AAC, A10, WCC, MVC, Horizon and Conf USA. No team is going to move from a power 5 to the Big East.
Conf USA is done. They are down to five teams and all are horrible.
WCC is Gonzaga which would good but hard to pull off.
The Horizon league overlaps markets and does not bring good teams.
MVC is Bradley, Drake and Loyola. None are good options.
I would look to the AAC. They are currently making $7-8M per team for TV but they lost most of their teams in football and are bringing in a lot of Conf USA so it is conceivable that they get Conf USA money which was $1M a team. At that point, if I was an AD I would consider the UConn route which might open the door to Memphis, WS, SMU. Why SMU? because it is a big market. They bring DePaul value. Not likely because Texas is football. Hurts Conf ranking but brings more TV coin.
The A10 is a lot of nothing. They will all accept an invite so see what shakes out as there is no rush. Check in with Memphis. See about Gonzaga. Maybe work with them to add more WCC and see if we could get to an East/West.
What designates a power conference vs a non-power conference? Power programs and TV dollars. Comparing us with the MVC, or any other similar league, is fruitless because they don't have either. Instead, we should be comparing to the B1G, ACC, Big 12 (even without UT/OU), PAC and SEC.
Outside of increasing revenue through improving tournament bids and seeds, adding a team also increases TV content, as well as adds a session to our BET, which also adds the league money.
I am not advocating for any one school to expand with, but expansion for the Big East makes financial sense for many reasons. It's why our own commissioner brought it up at BE Media Days. The Big East will be the smallest power conference in basketball moving forward, and the only one to utilize a R/R.
There were also many folks on here that didn't want UConn, a program with four national championships in prior twenty years, because they played football and/or were a public. While expansion won't make everyone happy, every decision Val Ackerman has made has increased perception and value to the Big East. Regardless of what happens (I do think we expand prior to 2025), I am confident it will be in best decision for Marquette and our conference.
I saw a news notification that UConn Football may be in discussion to be a football only member of C-USA as it tries to rebuild after schools left for the AAC. Along with Liberty & New Mexico St.
I saw a news notification that UConn Football may be in discussion to be a football only member of C-USA as it tries to rebuild after schools left for the AAC. Along with Liberty & New Mexico St.
MACrion adding Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee State.If it happens it would be two natural additions . Good geography and similar type schools.
Since we came from there and it was torpedoed by the American, I always had a little soft spot for C-USA, even if it's been nothing like the conference we were once in when it was getting 4-6 NCAA bids with viable Final Four contenders on a yearly basis. This definitely seems to be the end. Can't imagine any way they come back from being down to just 3 programs.
It feels pretty funny to see Memphis be the odd team left behind when we went to the Big East and now the odd team left behind as everyone flees the American. Maybe it's something about Memphis that makes everyone want to get away from them.
If it happens it would be two natural additions . Good geography and similar type schools.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1454198599399641092?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1454198600704081923%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-536563943097761641.ampproject.net%2F2110152252002%2Fframe.html
It feels pretty funny to see Memphis be the odd team left behind when we went to the Big East and now the odd team left behind as everyone flees the American. Maybe it's something about Memphis that makes everyone want to get away from them.
It's essentially a less-successful, less-respected Louisville. Their academic brand is not great (barely in the top 250 national universities) and their athletics have a long history of scandals.Memphis is in the best possible league they can be now. The new AAC is geographically focused ,and Memphis should consistently be in the top two of the league in Football and probably top of the league in basketball. Having a top 25 football team and a basketball team that makes the tournament every year is not a bad thing.
EDIT: After seeing who this post was by I'm thinking teal was intended?
The two adds that would make the most sense for the BE are Gonzaga and Bradley. Of the two, Bradley probably offers the most upside:
- a dynamic Peoria market
- Brian Wardle
- Brian's red shoes
Case closed.
The two adds that would make the most sense for the BE are Gonzaga and Bradley. Of the two, Bradley probably offers the most upside:
- a dynamic Peoria market
- Brian Wardle
- Brian's red shoes
Case closed.
It's essentially a less-successful, less-respected Louisville. Their academic brand is not great (barely in the top 250 national universities) and their athletics have a long history of scandals.
EDIT: After seeing who this post was by I'm thinking teal was intended?
I’d rather have Bradley than St. Louis
No school has been screwed over by realignment more in the past 30 years than UTEP.
Liberty, New Mexico State, Jacksonville State and Sam Houston State to C-USA.https://www.actionnetwork.com/ncaaf/conference-usa-liberty-new-mexico-state-sam-houston-state-jacksonville-state-college-football-realignment
That gets them to seven members. Still need an eighth (at least). Missouri State would be my next guess.
Liberty, New Mexico State, Jacksonville State and Sam Houston State to C-USA.
That gets them to seven members. Still need an eighth (at least). Missouri State would be my next guess.
MAC has been stable for like 2 decades. If I was WKY or MTSU, that would be attractive to me
Wonder if another Texas FCS school will follow them - like Stephen F. Austin. I also wonder if WKU and/or MTSU would find this a more attractive option than the MAC.
None of the other Texas FCS schools are any good. SHSU is probably the best FCS school to never win a title, certainly recently. If Liberty is coming, James Madison could make sense given their VA location and the fact that its another very strong program. But they could like the CAA for everything else and not want to jump.
Liberty, New Mexico State, Jacksonville State and Sam Houston State to C-USA.
That gets them to seven members. Still need an eighth (at least). Missouri State would be my next guess.
They're stable because no other conference wants them as members. In a decade or so, it is entirely possible that schools like Jacksonville State and Sam Houston are going to be where the likes of Coastal Carolina, Louisiana and Appalachian State are now. Given their geography and growth as schools, I think that is a greater possibility than casting their lots with a bunch of mid-level midwestern schools who have not done all that much.
MAC has been stable for like 2 decades. If I was WKY or MTSU, that would be attractive to meIn addition to the stability, The MAC has put out a lot of big name NFL players over the year. Football recruiting is far less efficient than Basketball. MAC has always been the league positioned to pick up talent that was under evaluated overlooked etc
I'm aware of why they are stable. But if Jacksonville St and Sam Houston do end up where the likes of Coastal Carolina, Louisiana, App St are now, they will just end up getting poached. Personally, I would opt for stability when there's no evidence that the new CUSA will be any better than the MAC.
I'm aware of why they are stable. But if Jacksonville St and Sam Houston do end up where the likes of Coastal Carolina, Louisiana, App St are now, they will just end up getting poached. Personally, I would opt for stability when there's no evidence that the new CUSA will be any better than the MAC.
Agreed, I think its more the evolution and progress of CFB (and population trends) than anything.
The MAC was the gold standard for mid major football for a long time. Programs like Miami and Marshall had historical success. And then in the 90s you had schools like Toledo, NIU, and others start to come on. Then random bursts of success from Akron, or Urban Meyer's BG teams, or Central Michigan. It was a significant mining ground for big program coaches and such.
But so much more football talent is coming from and staying in the South that you have schools that can just pick the leftovers that won't go to the SEC or ACC powers and put together a nice program. Less so than who in Ohio/Michigan/Indiana/Wisconsin aren't going to the B10.
The MAC was a strong mid-major hoops conference too, frequently getting multiple teams into the tourney. They've been a one-bid league since 1999, despite some nice upsets by their league champs during that time period (Ohio over Michigan on the way to the Sweet 16, Buffalo over Arizona, Ohio over UVA).
So it looks as though MTSU got cold feet and the MAC pulled the plug on any expansion, leaving WKU in CUSA as well. We will see, but IMO this is a better option for both schools.https://www.hustlebelt.com/2021/11/10/22775453/mid-american-conference-will-not-expansion-wku-middle-tennessee-c-usa-maction-realignment
I did not see this one coming. Loyola Chicago to the A-10.
https://loyolaramblers.com/news/2021/11/16/general-loyola-athletics-to-join-atlantic-10-conference-in-2022-23-academic-year.aspx
I did not see this one coming. Loyola Chicago to the A-10.
https://loyolaramblers.com/news/2021/11/16/general-loyola-athletics-to-join-atlantic-10-conference-in-2022-23-academic-year.aspx
They definitely have more in common with the A10 schools than MVC, which continues to take hits to its membership.
They definitely have more in common with the A10 schools than MVC, which continues to take hits to its membership.
Agree. Impressive what they have done in a short timespan for non-football school. Horizon to A10 in less than 10 years.
their AD specifically mentioned being in a conference with other Jesuit schools.
Not unlike Butler: Horizon to A-10 to Big East. Though this is the end of the climb for LUC.
Never say never. If they have a few more runs like they did under moser the BE powers may realize Chicago's big enough for two teams especially since one of them counts for negative support
Never say never. If they have a few more runs like they did under moser the BE powers may realize Chicago's big enough for two teams especially since one of them counts for negative support
I suspect any Big East expansion is going to involve entry to a new TV market. If they're going to divvy up the TV pie with more members, they're going to want a bigger pie. And I don't think a second team in Chicago gets them one.
As a fan of The Valley, this is another blow. That said, it can still be a very good league. Love them adding Belmont and Murray State. When they get St. Louis, that’ll be another good addition.
It wouldn't surprise me if the A10's reasoning included getting a school close to SLU to keep them happy. Especially now that they are starting to be a major factor in the league now.
Never say never. If they have a few more runs like they did under moser the BE powers may realize Chicago's big enough for two teams especially since one of them counts for negative support
Man, 5 years ago no one would've wanted LUC. Two top-80 finishes in the history of kenpom, both in the last 5 years. Three NCAA appearances since the 1960s, two in the last five years. Generally been a mediocre (at best) program for the better part of 50 years that caught lightning in a bottle. They should give 50% of their A-10 share to Cam Krutwig.
It wouldn't surprise me if the A10's reasoning included getting a school close to SLU to keep them happy. Especially now that they are starting to be a major factor in the league now.
Nah, Sister Jean.
Where is SLU going to go? They may want out but the only upgrade for them is the Big East and we don't want them.
The B1G wants SLU so they can host their tournament there
Man, 5 years ago no one would've wanted LUC. Two top-80 finishes in the history of kenpom, both in the last 5 years. Three NCAA appearances since the 1960s, two in the last five years. Generally been a mediocre (at best) program for the better part of 50 years that caught lightning in a bottle. They should give 50% of their A-10 share to Cam Krutwig.
The B1G wants SLU so they can host their tournament there
In 1998, there's very little chance the Big East would have wanted Marquette. A lot can happen in five years.Marquette had more NCAA appearances in the 5 years before 1998 than LUC has had in the last 50. Not to mention Marquette's (more impressive) glory days were more of a recent memory. And that's before Crean and Wade were a better version of Moser and Krutwig.
Beyond just on-court success, Loyola has invested pretty heavily in the program over the past decade, with a $26 million athletic complex and massive renovation of Gentile Arena.
Marquette had more NCAA appearances in the 5 years before 1998 than LUC has had in the last 50. Not to mention Marquette's (more impressive) glory days were more of a recent memory. And that's before Crean and Wade were a better version of Moser and Krutwig.
But that doesn't really matter, does it? The A-10 isn't taking Loyola because of where the program was 10 or 20 years ago. It's taking them for where they are now, which is a solid mid-major program with a nationally known brand, a recent record of success, a willingness to invest resources, and a location in the country's third-largest media market.
The idea that all of that upside is somehow less important than their KenPom in the 2010s or anything else from the distant past seems a bit silly. A middling Loyola program is still an asset to the conference.
In 1998, there's very little chance the Big East would have wanted Marquette. A lot can happen in five years.
Beyond just on-court success, Loyola has invested pretty heavily in the program over the past decade, with a $26 million athletic complex and massive renovation of Gentile Arena.
The B1G wants SLU so they can host their tournament there
their AD specifically mentioned being in a conference with other Jesuit schools.end of climb? Why? Loyola adds more to the BE than Butler if for no other reason the Chicago market. Loyola doesn’t take a back seat to DePaul, and two Chicago-market BE programs isn’t a bad thing.
Not unlike Butler: Horizon to A-10 to Big East. Though this is the end of the climb for LUC.
Some people here get very triggered when you mention this, or mention the state of MUBB before Kevin O’Neill, etc…
Marquette easily could have gone down a different path. Because they came close to that, didn’t, some cling a little super tight.
Some are also overly obsessed with KenPom, when it advances their point, but less so when it doesn’t.
It’s interesting how other schools are lucky and random. In 2003, Marquette barely beat Holy Cross in the NCAA First Round. (4 points). Then MU won in OT, Then MU won by 3 points.
In the Elite 8 year of 2013, MUBB won at the buzzer in the first round over Davidson and by 2 points in the 2nd round.
It’s pretty clear both of these things were pretty big deals for Marquette. They are the only two times MUBB has finished past the Sweet 16 in 44 years. Things worked out well for Marquette. That’s great. But some are not secure enough to mention that things easily could have gone a different way.
We’ve already discussed the various teams that have done better since joining new leagues, than they did before joining.
“Unproven upside” is in large part the NBA draft. Unproven upside is how several MLB franchises build their teams through draft and player development. And so on.
I’m sure Marquette Women’s Soccer Coach Frank Pelaez is paying attention to the situation. MU made 12 NCAA Women’s Soccer Tourneys in his 19 years as an assistant. They made 1 of 5, after he left for Loyola. Loyola made 3 after Pelaez left for there to coach or recruit the players, the first time they had made it in over a decade. (Marquette’s coach stepped down, and they hired Pelaez as head coach)
In 1998, there's very little chance the Big East would have wanted Marquette.
I'd say track record absolutely matters. The 2010s aren't the distant past. And where they are now is a team that's been sub-100 two of the last three years, unless you also think 2019 is the distant past.
This just demonstrates the randomness of March. They channeled a few lucky wins into big donations and parlayed that into a conference upgrade, not by sustaining success, but mostly because of 3 wins by 4 points in 2018.
I took a quick look at DePaul's schedule with this talk of Loyola, and color me surprised
12/4 vs. Loyola (Red Line Rivalry)
12/14 @ UIC
12/18 @ Northwestern
I wish MU would get back to playing in-state schools.
I took a quick look at DePaul's schedule with this talk of Loyola, and color me surprised
12/4 vs. Loyola (Red Line Rivalry)
12/14 @ UIC
12/18 @ Northwestern
I wish MU would get back to playing in-state schools.
I mean we're playing 1/3 of the onstage options... WI isn't like Illinois where they can fill an entire schedule with mid major opponents
You know, I thought this was hyperbole so I looked it up. Illinois has 13 D1 basketball programs:
Bradley Braves
Chicago State Cougars
DePaul Blue Demons
Eastern Illinois Panthers
Illinois Fighting Illini
Illinois State Redbirds
Loyola Ramblers
Northern Illinois Huskies
Northwestern Wildcats
Southern Illinois Salukis
SIUE Cougars
UIC Flames
I feel like I'm looking at gerrymandered voting districts for the first time. Maybe the fed should step in with some conference redistricting guidelines.
Off the top of my head youre at least forgetting Western Illinois University Leathernecks
My bad I deleted it from a quick copy/paste job from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_athletic_programs_in_Illinois
Oh...I guess I'm.wrong. I thought NEIU hoops still existed. LOL.
Oh...I guess I'm.wrong. I thought NEIU hoops still existed. LOL.
Gotcha. But either way see my point? I mean DePaul could play 3 different programs from in state each year for four years but still look like they're willing to play a bunch of in state schools regularly. We have to trust that UWM and UWGB won't be a grab on our NET plus both will likely ask for themselves to get a home game which would be worse than going down to to SIU.during the Buzz era MU did play at UW Green Bay, and lost. I believe that MU team ended up in the Elite 8.
during the Buzz era MU did play at UW Green Bay, and lost. I believe that MU team ended up in the Elite 8.
But only after considerable ScoopAngst that the season was ruined.
I still chuckle over all the angst that came out of that result. I think this is still the most fun I ever had creating a thread on Scoop: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=37122.msg469619#msg469619
The Maroons dropped down to make the atom bomb too.
I didn't know that and my great gramps graduated from both undergrad and law school there in 1939. They had D-1 hoops? I knew they had football.
I didn't know that and my great gramps graduated from both undergrad and law school there in 1939. They had D-1 hoops? I knew they had football.Jay Berwanger won the first Heisman Trophy. Was a multi talented running back.
Yes, they were a full member of the Big Ten until 1946. Were one of the original members too.
Yes, they were a full member of the Big Ten until 1946. Were one of the original members too.
Where do you see that? I think they dropped football in 1939.
Northeastern Illinois is D-1. At least in hoops.
Fluffy is right.
https://athletics.uchicago.edu/about/history/overview
Looks like Murray State will announce a move to the Missouri Valley this week - although it is unsure if that will include membership in the Missouri Valley Football Conference, which is a different entity.
Also looks like UIC will eventually join as well, which will give them 12 members.
What's the advantage of UIC? I feel like Belmonts a real loser in this scenario. At least they had two respectable conference games a year but now they've gotta hope for an MVC or A10 invite
Belmont accepted an MVC invite months ago.
https://belmontbruins.com/general/2021-22/releases/20210927xedytv
You know I thought I'd heard that but thought I was crazy. Well I guess the real loser is the ovc. Still don't understand UIC, they're not adding anything from the Chicago market, they don't bring a prestigious mid major program. I guess they're easy to travel to?
I think the justification for adding UIC is "They're in Chicago and they're not Chicago State"
I think the thought is that there is enough talent in Chicago that maybe with a conference promotion, UIC can start getting some of the high 2-stars and low 3-stars passed over by the high majors and become a decent program.
Maybe they think that's why Loyola got good. Not because of Moser, but because they were in the MVC.
I think that might be misguided.
At least Fordham had Vince Lombardi
Yeah, I don't understand mid-majors chasing markets instead of programs. Murray State and Belmont are great basketball additions. UIC? Not so much.
I would have thought a Morehead State would have been a better choice.
The MVC going after UIC reminds me when the A10 added Fordham.
I think the thought is that there is enough talent in Chicago that maybe with a conference promotion, UIC can start getting some of the high 2-stars and low 3-stars passed over by the high majors and become a decent program.
Yeah, I don't understand mid-majors chasing markets instead of programs. Murray State and Belmont are great basketball additions. UIC? Not so much.
I would have thought a Morehead State would have been a better choice.
The MVC going after UIC reminds me when the A10 added Fordham.
I think you're close, but I believe the reason is not so that UIC can get those players, but so that the other teams in the conference have an additional recruiting tool.
At this level, a road game played in the players home town might be one of the few chances for friends and family to see a recruit play. We're not talking about Power 6 conference where every game is televised.
Add a team in Chicago, and every other coach in the conference can promise Chicago-area recruits an annual trip to the Windy City to play in front of their friends and relatives.
UIC at least has the possibility to be successful. Fordham had been in the non-scholarship Patriot League prior to the A-10.
That was 27 years ago.
Just looked up UIC, wasn't their coach one of the premier assistants in the country? How'd he end up settling for that gig?
and they've never moved out of that mindset.
Poor facilities, no commitment to winning, underfunded department, little academic leeway.
He's a Chicago area native. He left Michigan after Beilein left then Texas when there were questions about Shaka's future. Still a very curious decision to take that job.
Not sure anyone would call lasalle, IL Chicago area.
Classic City of Chicago native answer ;D
It’s an hour from the suburbs, it’s the nearest big city to where he’s from, that plays.
Rockfords closer than Chicago ;)
But seriously come on I'm in Forest Park and it's 90mi from me (or at least starved rock is) which puts it just as far as Milwaukee. Unless we're going to start calling Milwaukee a suburb it's just north central Illinois.
But anyways that's a fairly good reason, still seems like he could've held out for better but it makes sense
So is Naperville and Aurora.
You can say that "He is from the Chicago area even though LaSalle is not a suburb of Chicago."
Just like you can say that "Nate Oats is from the Milwaukee area even though Watertown is not a suburb of Milwaukee."
Lasalle is closer to Davenport Iowa than Chicago. There's zero logic for calling it "part of the Chicagoland area"
What about appleton? 106mi, pretty much on par with lasalle to chicago. Would you as a northern Wisconsinite ever call yourself from milwaukee area?
Where does this expanded mythical "Chicago area" end in this new definition where apparently half the state of Illinois is Chicagoland? Is Milwaukee? Grand Rapids? University of Illinois? Rockford? Peoria? Bloomington? All Chicagoland?
Lasalle is closer to Davenport Iowa than Chicago. There's zero logic for calling it "part of the Chicagoland area" it's part of the Ottawa micro-politan area because it's population isn't reliant on the Chicago MSA (tourism not withstanding)
What about appleton? 106mi, pretty much on par with lasalle to chicago. Would you as a northern Wisconsinite ever call yourself from milwaukee area?
No one claimed LaSalle was part of "Chicagoland." No one claimed it was part of Chicago's MSA. Those are words you are using. Saying something is in the Chicago area is a broader, and more fuzzy term.
I have run into plenty of people in my lifetime who have said things like "Milwaukee is just north of Chicago" or "the Packers being Milwaukee's team just makes sense. They aren't far away."
These are people not from the area who don't view things as specifically as people who know the area more intimately.
We've had similar conversations on Scoop about Dayton and Xavier being in the same area, even though they are technically different MSAs and media markets.
No one claimed LaSalle was part of "Chicagoland." No one claimed it was part of Chicago's MSA. Those are words you are using. Saying something is in the Chicago area is a broader, and more fuzzy term.
I have run into plenty of people in my lifetime who have said things like "Milwaukee is just north of Chicago" or "the Packers being Milwaukee's team just makes sense. They aren't far away."
These are people not from the area who don't view things as specifically as people who know the area more intimately.
We've had similar conversations on Scoop about Dayton and Xavier being in the same area, even though they are technically different MSAs and media markets.
You're splitting hairs that can't be defined by trying to say there's a difference between "Chicago area" and "Chicagoland" I used MSA as it's an actual definable metric used to determine a (insert city) area. It's the only way to prove a point logically, otherwise I can use more hyperbole, "glad Marquette's in the Chicagoland area" wouldn't be able to drive to a weekday game otherwise!
The packers being Milwaukee's team is a different conversation. That's sports allegiance, if you look at a map of fandom most the Midwest roots for the Cubs. What I asked you is would you accept it as logical for someone to call you from Milwaukee area?
Dayton's different, the distance is considerably smaller, 56mi to city center. With the vast majority of that being shared suburbs.
You're splitting hairs that can't be defined by trying to say there's a difference between "Chicago area" and "Chicagoland" I used MSA as it's an actual definable metric used to determine a (insert city) area. It's the only way to prove a point logically, otherwise I can use more hyperbole, "glad Marquette's in the Chicagoland area" wouldn't be able to drive to a weekday game otherwise!
The packers being Milwaukee's team is a different conversation. That's sports allegiance, if you look at a map of fandom most the Midwest roots for the Cubs. What I asked you is would you accept it as logical for someone to call you from Milwaukee area?
Dayton's different, the distance is considerably smaller, 56mi to city center. With the vast majority of that being shared suburbs.
What I asked you is would you accept it as logical for someone to call you from Milwaukee area?
As Equalizer says, it depends on your perspective.
Having lived about 18 months in LaSalle County, I can definitively say that the people down there don't see themselves as being from the Chicago area.
Starved Rockers?
Starved Rockers?
This isn't even true for Illinois. Plenty of White Sox and Cardinal fans.
Certainly Cards territory in LaSalle. Mostly south of I-80 is cards territory.
I still say Chicago should annex Evanston and Oak Park in a Houston-esque manner
But leave Naperville. They claim they're "Chicago" because they have an Uncle Julios and a Catch 35, but are 40 minutes away (also the hilton is the "Naperville-Chicago Hilton")
(The above is to keep the topic relevant to "realignment" talk...just not related to conferences)
While I agree it'd be beneficial for the city (would add Norridge, Harwood Heights, Cicero, Berwyn, Forest Park, & Evergreen park) the two you mentioned pay wayyyy too much in education taxes & police taxes plus have too much town pride to ever let themselves be annexed by the city. Meanwhile here in Forest Park I'd welcome sending my kids to a CPS magnet school over Proviso East
an elaborate setup to crap on Naperville.
Certainly Cards territory in LaSalle. Mostly south of I-80 is cards territory.
I still say Chicago should annex Evanston and Oak Park in a Houston-esque manner
But leave Naperville. They claim they're "Chicago" because they have an Uncle Julios and a Catch 35, but are 40 minutes away (also the hilton is the "Naperville-Chicago Hilton")
(The above is to keep the topic relevant to "realignment" talk...just not related to conferences)
That Hilton is now a Doubletree, and is actually in Lisle.
Naperville, IL hotels = "More conference realignment talk"
Good stuff here. ;)
Certainly Cards territory in LaSalle. Mostly south of I-80 is cards territory.
I still say Chicago should annex Evanston and Oak Park in a Houston-esque manner
pull a Louisville and Toronto and just absorb every suburb.
On January 1, 1998, Toronto was greatly enlarged, not through traditional annexations, but as an amalgamation of the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto and its six lower-tier constituent municipalities; East York, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, and the original city itself. They were dissolved by an act of the Government of Ontario, and formed into a single-tier City of Toronto (colloquially dubbed the "megacity") replacing all six governments. The unified city became the fifth most populous city proper in North America, behind Mexico City, New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago. In 2013, it surpassed Chicago in population.[15]
How'd Hamilton avoid it?
Edit: nevermind didn't realize there was a space between the two thought they touched
So Hamilton is in the Toronto area, but not a suburb of Toronto? ;)
Easy there I know you're from the Toronto area but this is literally an established defined location.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_and_Hamilton_Area
Center of Hamilton is 42mi away from the center of Toronto, it would be more akin to saying whether Gary is in the chicago area than Billy's post you were defending about some small town 92mi away from the western border of chicago
Miles don't exist in Canada. Distance is but a mirage.
Isn't that like 18 Tim Horton's away?
What's the distance conversion from Tim Hortons to Dunkin Donuts?LOL! According to Wikipedia, there are 9,384 Dunkin Donuts in the US and 4,286 Tim Horton's in Canada, so I'm going with 1 Tim Horton's = 2.19 Dunkin Donuts.
https://www.si.com/college/2022/01/20/ncaa-future-power-5-football-basketball-money
If the P5 are already talking secession publicly, I have to think that's where this ends.
How things play out, especially where the BE is concerned will be interesting. I see where UCONN is on the hook to pay former coach Kevin Ollie $11M, putting their athletic department in yet a bigger financial hole. Thus, what is their viability to remain in a major conference if there is a big-time D-1 implosion? Will there be a Big East?
Between that and the big money they paid to join the Beast, the fine taxpayers of Connecticut have paid for a very expensive basketball program. Thanks, MUFIC!
I can see the FBS splitting further. I don't think they will mess with March madness significantly other than kicking out some low majors conferences
NCAA makes 90% of its revenue from MM. Whatever happens in football, there still gonna be a big ole basketball tournament every year.
NCAA makes 90% of its revenue from MM. Whatever happens in football, there still gonna be a big ole basketball tournament every year.
yes, the NCAA does. But the Power Five schools make their money from football TV deals and their cable networks.
IF the Power Five agree to not split to save the NCAA tourney I can see fewer automatic bids for mid and low major conferences and more guaranteed bids for the Power Five schools. Think of it like the World Cup where each federation gets a set number of spots...if any at all (Oceania).
yes, the NCAA does. But the Power Five schools make their money from football TV deals and their cable networks.
IF the Power Five agree to not split to save the NCAA tourney I can see fewer automatic bids for mid and low major conferences and more guaranteed bids for the Power Five schools. Think of it like the World Cup where each federation gets a set number of spots...if any at all (Oceania).
Where do we fit in in this hierarchy?
There's zero metrics to support a claim the big east is a mid major and we're certainly not a power 5 for obvious throwball/runball reasons. So...?
Right, but I guess I'm say regardless of what happens with football there's going to be a big college basketball tournament every year - NCAA or not. And I bet it will look pretty similar to what we have now since MM is the best annual sporting event on the planet - precisely because sh*t P5 schools don't make it in and some no-name, tri-directional, reptiled-mascot school of 1800 students makes the S16 every year or two.
as far as Power Five leaders are concerned, there is them and the rest of the conferences. If there is a second level it's whatever is left of the Group of Five conferences.
I do expect to see a reduction of Division 1 programs. Not any schools in legit non-football conferences like the BE, A-10, WCC, but I can see budget requirements to stay in D1.
So I have to ask. if they did split, given the amount of success non FBS schools have been having of late would they be concerned about the bad PR for being seen as "running"?
Agreed, but I do think Billy is right that they will try to boot some of the low-major conferences so that there are less AQs and more spots available for high major programs, along with some changes about how NCAAT money is allocated.
Agreed, but I do think Billy is right that they will try to boot some of the low-major conferences so that there are less AQs and more spots available for high major programs, along with some changes about how NCAAT money is allocated.
The problem was a there are double the Davids than there were a generation ago. There will still be plenty to choose from.
NOOOOOOO! He said Cardinal fan! &$!:+@!*;"&@_
Be careful Brother Tower!
You're probably right, but it would be a shame. I'd much rather have 13-18 west florida A&M sweep through their conference tourney and get a chance to slay Duke, then see a 6-12 in conference Penn State team get that spot.
It's also.why I think the FA Cup is the second best soccer tourney on the planet. I love that the Semi-pro guys who work.down at the pub and and play on 3rd division Little Wigginton Junction have the chance to take on Chelsea.
David v Golitah is what puts the Madness in MM. Take away the Davids and it's a much less interesting event.
pull a Louisville and Toronto and just absorb every suburb.
On January 1, 1998, Toronto was greatly enlarged, not through traditional annexations, but as an amalgamation of the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto and its six lower-tier constituent municipalities; East York, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, and the original city itself. They were dissolved by an act of the Government of Ontario, and formed into a single-tier City of Toronto (colloquially dubbed the "megacity") replacing all six governments. The unified city became the fifth most populous city proper in North America, behind Mexico City, New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago. In 2013, it surpassed Chicago in population.[15]
Missouri Valley will announce UIC as its 12th member next week, sources told CBS Sports. A big add since the MVC is losing Loyola Chicago to the A-10.
The Valley has plucked Belmont, Murray State + UIC in just a few months’ time
Missouri Valley will announce UIC as its 12th member next week, sources told CBS Sports. A big add since the MVC is losing Loyola Chicago to the A-10.
The Valley has plucked Belmont, Murray State + UIC in just a few months’ time
MVC needed to get back into the Chicago market since so many of the Valley programs recruit Chicago very well (from a non-athletic perspective). The MVC has done as good as they possibly could, IMO, replacing Creighton, Wichita State and Loyola (Chicago) with Belmont, Murray State, UIC, Loyola and Valparaiso. Still a very strong league.
Valley talk will continue to dominate the Chicago sports market
Valley talk will continue to dominate the Chicago sports market
The Chicago River Valley now flows backwards and never merges with Missouri River flowage. It's a disgrace.
Nashville did that back in 1963. Was the first piece of what made the city grow to what it is today. Of course, the city has spilled well beyond the borders of Davidson County now.
The MVC still only has one team in the Missouri River drainage basin - Missouri State.
Fluff
I am not a riverologist like you but I believe the member schools link up to the Mississippi via Ohio and Illinois rivers where they are enjoined with Missouri flows. The exception is Loyola which flows from the nearby North Shore Channel into the Chicago river into Lake Michigan. I guess one could argue those Chicago River chunks flow south in Lake Michigan to Cal City and into the Illinois Sanitary and Ship Canal, eventually flowing into the Mississippi to join their Might Mo brethren near Yadi's Temple.
Missouri Valley will announce UIC as its 12th member next week, sources told CBS Sports. A big add since the MVC is losing Loyola Chicago to the A-10.Good move for The Valley.
The Valley has plucked Belmont, Murray State + UIC in just a few months’ time
Valley talk will continue to dominate the Chicago sports market
I think the Valley gets weaker and weaker
They are trending toward being a one
bid league.
I think the Valley gets weaker and weaker
They are trending toward being a one
bid league.
They are weaker than their heyday and they’ve been a one-bid league for awhile.
However, I like the additions of Murray State and Belmont quite a bit. Eventually, they’ll probably add St. Louis and Dayton, too.
I doubt it. I think the A10 adding Loyola was about increasing a Midwest presence along with SLU and Dayton.
This theory only makes sense if it were called the Mississippi Valley Conference.
Superbar
This article popped up in my Google news feed this morning. Sounded Scoop worthy for discussion.Very interesting. I think there are some definitive winners in changing conferences like MU, Butler, TCU, Baylor and Utah but the rest seems like just reshuffling the deck. TA&M, Colorado, 'Cuse, Pitt and VT seem to be about the same or less of a brand than they used to be. Many believe Texas and OU will go from competing for championships in a P5 conference and the Playoffs to middle of the road teams in the SEC.
Does conference realignment pay off? No, according to this research
A Georgia State professor researched the last wave and found no improvements in money, wins or applications for schools that changed conferences.
https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bulls/2022/02/03/does-conference-realignment-pay-off-no-according-to-this-research/
This article popped up in my Google news feed this morning. Sounded Scoop worthy for discussion.
Does conference realignment pay off? No, according to this research
A Georgia State professor researched the last wave and found no improvements in money, wins or applications for schools that changed conferences.
https://www.tampabay.com/sports/bulls/2022/02/03/does-conference-realignment-pay-off-no-according-to-this-research/
Had to go to a periodontist yesterday. The doc walks in, sees my MU shirt, and says, "Marquette, huh? You're having a really nice season with Shaka." We chitchat for a minute and he then says, "I'm a Syracuse guy. I wish like hell we never left the Big East. We had some great games with you. I miss the Big East."
If that's not proof that the ACC has been bad for 'Cuse, I don't know what is!
This is very enlightening. The loss of traditional rivalries was too often treated casually in the pursuit of perceived improved status in another conference. With 20-20 hindsight, it's amazing that (apparently) more studies like this were not conducted prior to the decision(s) to change conferences. College sports are a multi -million-dollar business, and this analysis makes it clear that due diligence studies/analysis were not always properly conducted. Business 101.
But improvement is a relative question right? They use Nebraska as an example. The question isn't whether or not they improved when compared to before, but are they better off than they would have been had they stayed.
So let's say that Nebraska stayed in the B12, but all the other conference changes occurred. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me that Nebraska would not be better off in the B10 versus the new B12 with Cincy and UCF.
Or put another way, even knowing this study exists, would Kansas take a B10 invite? Of course they would.
The Nebraska point is correct but I don't think that was the point of or the conclusion of the study. Conference realignment as a whole has been neutral or bad for most schools and college sports as a whole. I've talked to a few Nebraska fans in the past ten years or so who wish they never left the Big XII. I'm sure with UT and OU leaving the Big XII they are happy to be in the Big 10 now, but a lot of Nebraska fans would rather have things the way they were 15 years ago.
Also, I'm not sure the new Big XII is missing Nebraska too much, since the new lineup would have had 5 teams in the top 20 this year and one in the Playoff. Cincy is better in football and basketball than Nebraska.
Had to go to a periodontist yesterday. The doc walks in, sees my MU shirt, and says, "Marquette, huh? You're having a really nice season with Shaka." We chitchat for a minute and he then says, "I'm a Syracuse guy. I wish like hell we never left the Big East. We had some great games with you. I miss the Big East."side note...in Tucson on biz, i was at the UCLA-‘Zona game last night. A UCLA fan saw my MU hat and said he would not want a rematch with MU right now. Fear us, conference of champions, fear us!
If that's not proof that the ACC has been bad for 'Cuse, I don't know what is!
The Nebraska point is correct but I don't think that was the point of or the conclusion of the study. Conference realignment as a whole has been neutral or bad for most schools and college sports as a whole. I've talked to a few Nebraska fans in the past ten years or so who wish they never left the Big XII. I'm sure with UT and OU leaving the Big XII they are happy to be in the Big 10 now, but a lot of Nebraska fans would rather have things the way they were 15 years ago.
Also, I'm not sure the new Big XII is missing Nebraska too much, since the new lineup would have had 5 teams in the top 20 this year and one in the Playoff. Cincy is better in football and basketball than Nebraska.
Had to go to a periodontist yesterday. The doc walks in, sees my MU shirt, and says, "Marquette, huh? You're having a really nice season with Shaka." We chitchat for a minute and he then says, "I'm a Syracuse guy. I wish like hell we never left the Big East. We had some great games with you. I miss the Big East."You know better than to believe what a dentist says.
If that's not proof that the ACC has been bad for 'Cuse, I don't know what is!
I think the premise on that article linked here is somewhat flawed. There definitely are instances like Nebraska, Texas, OU, Missouri, Maryland, Rutgers, etc. where a school moves from one conference to another on a supposition that the move will benefit the institution. In those situations, the premise is probably fine.First, apparently the historical financial data proves no benefits from moving conferences. I assume there is no motive to falsify the data so 'it is what it is' regardless of our opinions.
But for every move like the ones above, there are probably 5 or 6 cascading moves on the downstream conferences. The end result is many more of these moves are reactive and arguably made to prevent conference affiliation from becoming a financial anchor on an institution. There's a big difference between moving from one conference to another with the idea that it will be of benefit, versus escaping a deteriorating or unstable situation.
I guess what I'm saying is that you can't really lump every move together and say "SEE ALMOST NO ONE BENEFITS FROM THIS!" because there are many different motivating factors behind moves...and I certainly would not argue that every school that changes conferences is looking to reap some massive financial windfall from it.
You know better than to believe what a dentist says.(https://media4.giphy.com/media/3ov9jGtRrSz234TVF6/200w.webp?cid=ecf05e47nj0eolnjr5f8s6xa7rx9ux88bsr6wiavxisln0s1&rid=200w.webp&ct=g)
First, apparently the historical financial data proves no benefits from moving conferences. I assume there is no motive to falsify the data so 'it is what it is' regardless of our opinions.
I would disagree about Nebraska, Texas, OU and Maryland; IMO they are the perfect examples of the fallacy of the benefits of changing conferences. I don't think any of them has or will help their status in the college sports landscape.
Now I think you could make an argument that the change was beneficial to maintain their current status or mitigate loss in stature but I don't think they improved.
You know better than to believe what a dentist says.
The Horizon League has banished UIC from participating in all winter and spring tournaments. And then blocked all national media on its social media accounts.
https://twitter.com/RobDauster/status/1491435123941986312?s=20&t=MbEIEpu_bkm58Bzyrj8mKQ
Talk about petty.
I think I read that America East was doing similar to Stony Brook for announcing their departure.
The Horizon League has banished UIC from participating in all winter and spring tournaments. And then blocked all national media on its social media accounts.
https://twitter.com/RobDauster/status/1491435123941986312?s=20&t=MbEIEpu_bkm58Bzyrj8mKQ
Talk about petty.
Not only that but UIC is heading into a league that all Horizon schools aspire to join - the Missouri Valley. How much are could this hurt other Horizon schools that are up for MVC membership?
Also, if you are a school like Bellarmine, who is rumored to be on the Horizon short list, how much does this make you want to jump to the Horizon versus stay in the A-Sun? Or wait out a possible Ohio Valley invite?
Queens University of Charlotte, now in D2, is meeting this week to decide if they will seriously explore a move to D1.I feel like America has been begging for Queens to go D1 for years. I think the BE could swap Georgetown for Queens. That would be a homerun.
According to NCAA statistics, Queens would have the third-smallest enrollment (1,670) of any D1, larger than only Presbyterian (1,172) in South Carolina and St. Francis (1,658) in Pennsylvania.
I feel like America has been begging for Queens to go D1 for years. I think the BE could swap Georgetown for Queens. That would be a homerun.
Going to join a conference with St. Thomas?
I thought St. Thomas to the Big East was a "Done Deal".
I thought St. Thomas to the Big East was a "Done Deal".
I though they were behind the Quinnipiac Bobcats?I think if the Big East can't get Chicago State, then its Quinnipiac.
I thought they were behind the Quinnipiac Bobcats?
They've run local articles indicating QU's "aspirations for higher status league for their sports programs".
Quinnipiac's hockey team is ranked 2nd in the country right now behind Minnesota State with Denver ranked 3rd.
Saw a bunch of new posts.
1. Ctrl-F
2. D-A-Y-T
3. "No results"
4. We're good.
They've run local articles indicating QU's "aspirations for higher status league for their sports programs".
Quinnipiac's hockey team is ranked 2nd in the country right now behind Minnesota State with Denver ranked 3rd.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H-_3BJ3Eb3g/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H-_3BJ3Eb3g/maxresdefault.jpg)Probably a $5k car in today's market.
Thats kind of amusing. I wonder what their pitch would be.
Their mens BB STINKS. 1 NIT appearance all time.
Mens LAX had 1 decent season making the NCAAs in the last 20+ years.
Same with Mens Soccer
Mens Baseball basically the same as well.
Womens basketball is easily their most successful program, basically the best in the MAAC.
They moved from the Northeast to the MAAC which was a step up. I don't know where they think they could/should belong from here? The A10? They'd be cannon fodder in most any larger/better conference.
Their hockey is a nice story but they're already in the best non-Hockey East conference out there, but hockey isn't really a bargaining chip for the other sports.
I think they would have done so already if their contracts allow or if the penalties were deemed reasonable. My guess is the Big XII contracts are iron clad and pricey. Just an uninformed opinion. I suppose the fact that the current Big XII is a very good conference with good (but not SEC) payouts may give them comfort in waiting it out.
Wonder if we will see something similar with Texas and Oklahoma.
Horizon league reversed course and will let UIC compete in the postseason tournaments. Think they got more backlash than they expected
I subscribe to Matt Brown's Extra Points column, and he does a lot of stuff on conference realignment. He believe that this kind of stuff actually harms the conference and the schools that remain.
https://www.extrapointsmb.com/uic-stony-brook-caa-ae-horizon-league-ban/
"In covering conference realignment over the last two years, multiple people at multiple schools, conferences and businesses have told me that how leagues handle the transition process is absolutely a factor when other schools decide which league to join.
As one industry source told me, "If you're thinking about dating somebody, and you know their last three relationships ended in huge fights and they're always talking about how crazy their exes are...that has to raise a red flag, right? It's a similar factor in conference realignment. It may not be enough of a red flag to keep a school from joining a league, but it's certainly a factor."
Officials at both UIC and Stony Brook told me that while they're not completely ruling anything out, both schools are likely to consider how their transitions from the Horizon and AE went when setting up out of conference schedules in the future. If you're a school that wants to play games in Chicago or Long Island for recruiting purposes, do you really want to burn a relationship that could make that happen?"
I should have been more clear. Oklahoma and Texas are slated to leave the Big 12 in 2025. The four new schools are slated to join in 2023, so there would be two years of a 14 team league, which apparently the conference seems to be planning for.
Of course there is no reason NOW to negotiate, but what happens a year from now?
Where are Texas and Oklahoma going?
A possible solution in all of this was for UIC to honor the one year notice. Didnt they worry about burning bridges? They were the ones putting their own student athletes at risk of not playing in league tournaments.Taking responsibility for your own actions??? What America are you living in?
A possible solution in all of this was for UIC to honor the one year notice. Didnt they worry about burning bridges? They were the ones putting their own student athletes at risk of not playing in league tournaments.
Taking responsibility for your own actions??? What America are you living in?
Again, since the athletes are the ones who are being penalized, and none of their actions caused this, this is really not a very good point.
Yes it is a good point. Unless your beef is with UIC, and not the conference, for making a choice to penalize their athletes under terms they knew about and freely agreed to. The conference is acting ethically and legally in this matter.
Legally? Yes, but that's not in question. Ethically? Matter of opinion. Just because UIC may or may not be acting unethically doesn't mean that the conference is acting ethically. It also doesn't answer if the conference is acting wisely.
Legally? Yes, but that's not in question. Ethically? Matter of opinion. Just because UIC may or may not be acting unethically doesn't mean that the conference is acting ethically. It also doesn't answer if the conference is acting wisely.I guess it is a matter of perspective. I don't see where the conference acted unethically. They acted in accordance with the mutually agreed to terms. There wasn't some material change in conditions that would justify or compel them to change the terms of the agreement. In fact, they have a legal and ethical duty to the members of the conference to enforce the agree to policies.
I guess it is a matter of perspective. I don't see where the conference acted unethically. They acted in accordance with the mutually agreed to terms. There wasn't some material change in conditions that would justify or compel them to change the terms of the agreement. In fact, they have a legal and ethical duty to the members of the conference to enforce the agree to policies.
Whether the terms of the agreement are good or wise is a totally different discussion.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this. My experiences in corporate and contract law lead me to totally different conclusions.
They don't have a legal and ethical duty to enforce the bylaws in place. They can choose to waive them.
And of course the discussion of the terms being wise or good is part of this discussion. That's the whole point.
Didn't the Horizon do the same thing when Butler and Valparaiso left? I'm pretty sure I remember there being some controversy around that. Some people never learnMeaning ban from HL post season, no. Rules were different then, i'm guessing.
I guess it is a matter of perspective. I don't see where the conference acted unethically. They acted in accordance with the mutually agreed to terms. There wasn't some material change in conditions that would justify or compel them to change the terms of the agreement. In fact, they have a legal and ethical duty to the members of the conference to enforce the agree to policies.
Whether the terms of the agreement are good or wise is a totally different discussion.
Just because there is an agreement in place, doesn't mean that the agreement is ethical. I can see arguments for the Horizon being unethical. I can see arguments for UIC being unethical. The only group that for sure is not being unethical? The student athletes. Yet they were the ones who being punished the most. Fortunately, the Horizon reversed course.I agree the current students are being penalized for decisions out of their control and you could say that future students are reaping benefits of moving to a better conference sooner.
I agree the current students are being penalized for decisions out of their control and you could say that future students are reaping benefits of moving to a better conference sooner.
I still fail to see where the conference was acting unethically. In my opinion, just an opinion, UIC 100% acted unethically with both the conference and it's student athletes. To willfully and knowingly violate the terms of the conference to the detriment of both its fellow schools and its athletes is unethical in my eyes.
I still fail to see where the conference was acting unethically. In my opinion, just an opinion, UIC 100% acted unethically with both the conference and it's student athletes. To willfully and knowingly violate the terms of the conference to the detriment of both its fellow schools and its athletes is unethical in my eyes.
I think it is unethical for a conference to create (and then enforce) a bylaw whose only meaningful impact is to punish student athletes for something that they had no control over.What is more unethical, to create the by-law or to willingly agree to and bound your university to them? The Horizon League and it's members (UIC included) probably felt that this was a fair way to prevent rapid exits of schools with no window to replace members and potentially putting things like automatic bids at risk; which would be very unfair to the athletes at other schools.
Again, both UIC and Horizon can both be unethical. UIC being unethical doesn't mean that Horizon is being ethicalI never said they are mutually exclusive of each other. I don't understand how you are getting to that conclusion. We all understand that both can be acting unethically. You are missing my point.
I never said they are mutually exclusive of each other. I don't understand how you are getting to that conclusion. We all understand that both can be acting unethically. You are missing my point.
I explained my opinion above. Time to move on.
Your opinion isn't on the topic at hand. The discussion was about whether or not the Horizon enforcing that bylaw that punished the student athletes was the right thing to do. You keep trying to make it about UIC. UIC didn't decide to enforce the bylaw, the Horizon League did. UIC had no part in that decision. Regardless of whatever UIC has done, the Horizon League still had the choice of whether or not to enforce the bylaw. They initially chose to do so, which they had every right to do. My opinion was that this was the wrong (and unethical) choice. The Horizon League eventually agreed with me because they reversed their decision within a week.
Your argument boils down to "well, UIC was worse" which isn't a logical argument. It's just whataboutism. UIC's actions may have enabled the Horizon to enforce that bylaw (and the ethics of that is a whole other conversation), but it was still the Horizon's decision on whether or not to actually follow through on enforcing the bylaw. Which they did, but they eventually realized and corrected their error in judgement.
Trying to compare this to Maryland paying an exit fee is a poor comparison. An exit fee punishes the school (the ones at fault), not the student athletes (innocent bystanders). It also provides additional value to the old conference which can benefit its remaining members. Banning student athletes from postseason play doesn't meaningfully punish the leaving school but does punish the student athletes. It also provides no value to the Horizon League's remaining members. It's only purpose is pettiness and as Clarissa's article argued may even damage the remaining members.
The reason no one cared about the ACC getting its pound of flesh from Maryland is because they didn't ban their players from postseason play. If all the Horizon League did was charge UIC an exit fee, no one would give a crap either.
Yes, enforcing the bylaw would have been the right thing to do.
The teams in the league agreed to the restrictions for a reason. Schedules are planned almost a year out, lots of moving parts with shared venues, multiple sports. Will it now be fine if a team leaves 6 months before a season starts? 3 months?
Yes, enforcing the bylaw would have been the right thing to do.
The teams in the league agreed to the restrictions for a reason. Schedules are planned almost a year out, lots of moving parts with shared venues, multiple sports. Will it now be fine if a team leaves 6 months before a season starts? 3 months?
UIC made a choice knowing it would adversely affect their student athletes. Why couldn’t they resolve the situation by waiting the full year?
If UIC suited up Lebron James and let him play in a game, would the Horizon or NCAA be unethical in punishing the program because the other players would be adversely affected?
You are making the same whataboutism argument that WhiteTrash is. What about UIC? What about UIC? They did not have any role in this decision. Only the conference did. Whether UIC leaving early is okay or not is a separate conversation. Punishing UIC's student athletes does nothing to benefit the Horizon League. It does nothing to punish UIC. All it does is punish the student athletes for something they had no control of. It's petty. And look, the Horizon League even realized it which is why they reversed the decision. Not even the conference that you are trying to defend agrees with you.
What? Your argument against this is "what if a current NBA player decided to play for a crappy college team?" You can't think of a more realistic scenario? But to play along with this fantasy, you would obviously ban UIC's basketball team from play until James was removed from the roster. Why? Because James' presence is an unfair advantage that harms other athletes in the conference. This farce is not comparable to what the Horizon tried to do to UIC's athletes. UIC's athletes don't have any unfair advantage that harms the other teams in the conference. Them being eligible for postseason play is what every other team expected to happen entering the season.
The scenario was farcical on purpose.Obviously I agree with this. The member schools, including UIC, approved the by-laws and the schools ask the conference to enforce all they terms of the conference affiliation. The conference enforces the by-laws, as they are required to do, but now they are the bad guys.
Every decision a university makes affects the students. Every decision the athletic department makes affects the student athletes. You know this more than anyone on this board.
If you don’t agree with a rule or a bylaw, negotiate to change it. Don’t just break it and hope there’s no repercussions.
Agreed that this particular rule might not be merited. But like you said that’s a different discussion.
The rule is in place to protect the league, its other members, and their automatic bid. It’s in place to make a team wait the full year and not screw over their players; To avoid this scenario. It goes above and beyond a monetary punishment. UIC decided it was worth the risk and put the student athletes in the middle.
If you don’t agree with a rule or a bylaw, negotiate to change it. Don’t just break it and hope there’s no repercussions.
Again, UIC has nothing to do with this. You want to have a separate conversation about whether or not they should have left early, great do that. This decision was the conference's and the conference's alone. UIC had no say in it. Fortunately, the conference eventually came to the correct decision.Would you agree that if UIC acted as required by the terms they agreed to (and maybe championed at one point), that the conference would have not been put in a position to enforce or not enforce the by-laws?
The conference enforces the by-laws, as they are required to do,
Would you agree that if UIC acted as required by the terms they agreed to (and maybe championed at one point), that the conference would have not been put in a position to enforce or not enforce the by-laws?
If so, then I don't know how you can declare "UIC has nothing to do with this".
This is incorrect and maybe this is where the confusion is. The conference has a choice of whether or not to enforce a bylaw. They initially chose to. They then decided against it.
I do agree with it. But what UIC did or didn't do is irrelevant to whether or not the conference choosing to enforce an unethical bylaw is the right decision. It's only relevant if you look at it through a pre-k lens of "well they started it". Two wrongs don't make a right. The conference can't control what UIC did. They can control how they respond. They initially chose to be petty and punish the student athletes for something they had no control over. They realized their mistake and reversed course. Again, not even the conference you're attempting to defend agrees with you.
This is incorrect and maybe this is where the confusion is. The conference has a choice of whether or not to enforce a bylaw. They initially chose to. They then decided against it.
I do agree with it. But what UIC did or didn't do is irrelevant to whether or not the conference choosing to enforce an unethical bylaw is the right decision. It's only relevant if you look at it through a pre-k lens of "well they started it". Two wrongs don't make a right. The conference can't control what UIC did. They can control how they respond. They initially chose to be petty and punish the student athletes for something they had no control over. They realized their mistake and reversed course. Again, not even the conference you're attempting to defend agrees with you.
Agree to disagree. You are are making wild assumptions that make intelligent discourse impossible on the issue.
We can all go back to ignoring the Horizon League.
Ok. What do the student athletes have control over and what can the university be punished for?
Agree to disagree. You are are making wild assumptions that make intelligent discourse impossible on the issue.
We can all go back to ignoring the Horizon League.
What? I have no problem with the school being punished for violating bylaws. Charge them millions in exit fees. Require them to schedule home and homes against the conference for x number of years. Hell, require the university president to issue a statement that UIC is too chicken to compete in the Horizon while wearing a chicken suit.
I have a problem with the punishment falling solely on the student athletes and not on the school... which is what banning UIC did postseason play did.
There are literally no assumptions in the post you quoted.
Wild assumptions:
UICs decision has nothing to do with the leagues decision. If I commit a crime the punishment is a direct response to my decision to commit a crime.
The leagues punishment was unethical. The punishment must fit in a predetermined and agreed upon range. In which league members agreed this was an ethical punishment.
The punishment falls solely on the student athletes. UIC will benefit from exposure during the conference tournament win or lose. If they are to win the auto bid, they will benefit more than any team in the league.
Wild assumptions:
UICs decision has nothing to do with the leagues decision. If I commit a crime the punishment is a direct response to my decision to commit a crime.
The leagues punishment was unethical. The punishment must fit in a predetermined and agreed upon range. In which league members agreed this was an ethical punishment.
The punishment falls solely on the student athletes. UIC will benefit from exposure during the conference tournament win or lose. If they are to win the auto bid, they will benefit more than any team in the league.
Do you know what the word “assumption” means? Those are opinions…not assumptions.
Do you know what the word “assumption” means? Those are opinions…not assumptions.
Obviously I agree with this. The member schools, including UIC, approved the by-laws and the schools ask the conference to enforce all they terms of the conference affiliation. The conference enforces the by-laws, as they are required to do, but now they are the bad guys.
The mind set of violating an agreement and then blaming others is the new mind set of many in America these days.
I'm glad it worked out for the UIC student athletes but it 100% clear that if UIC would have done the ethical and legally required terms of exiting the league, this would not even be a topic of discussion. But I guess that's too much to ask of anyone these days.
Lindenwood University will transition to FCS Football and Division 1 Athletics joining the Ohio Valley Conference. The FCS football component will combine with the Big South. 33 schools have either moved in or out of FCS football in the past 5 years. Lots of movement in these leagues,Smart move by Lindenwood
The school may sound familiar to some as former Wisconsin Coach Brad Soderberg used to be their basketball coach when they transitioned from NAIA to D-2 a little over 10 plus years ago. And for old timers its a former NFL training camp site in the 1970's.
Gonzaga to the a Big East picking up some serious steam…
Sounds like Gonzaga is definitely bouncing, its just a matter of where.
I dont like losing the round robin.
Might be time to eject a team.
I'll continue to ask: What is Gonzaga once Mark Few leaves? He'll be sixty this season. How much longer does he want to do this? Who's going to Spokane, WA to take over when he does leave?This same question can be asked about lots of programs. Maybe this is part of the motivation behind a move to the BE.
Heck, what will they be without Tommy Lloyd? They have 1 recruit signed and he's a 3 star. They weren't close to as good this year as they were last year. They'll still win a ton of games in their conference until they leave, but will they be a national title contender annually?
This same question can be asked about lots of programs. Maybe this is part of the motivation behind a move to the BE.
Tired: NCAA Basketball season
Wired: Gonzaga to the Big East szn
Yup, DePaul played that card beautifully.If you can get Few for 5-10 seasons in the BE, I like their chances to stay relevant without him. They've developed a nice national brand and with continued success and more money they should be able to compete without Few. They don't need to be an annual title contender, they just need to be relevant in order to be valuable to the BE. At the end of the day, it's all about money and I'm willing to bet Gonzaga moves the needle on a TV contract much more than any other viable addition to the BE.
Sounds like Gonzaga is definitely bouncing, its just a matter of where.
I dont like losing the round robin.
Might be time to eject a team.
22 conference games, 9 non-con. The issue will always be Gonzaga traveling, but it's only a one-team issue. All of us can make one trip west. Schedule everyone else around them. I used the 2022-23 calendar to create this while taking a look at Gonzaga's academic calendar to make it work. I'll put the home games in alphabetical order because it doesn't matter as much, but then batch the rest geographically:
- Homestand 1:[/b] Dec 17 vs Butler, Dec 20 vs UConn
- Roadtrip 1: Dec 27 @ UConn, Dec 30 @ Providence, Jan 1 @ St. John's (3 games in 6 days over winter break)
- Homestand 2: Jan 4 vs Creighton, Jan 7 vs DePaul
- Roadtrip 2: Jan 11 @ Seton Hall, Jan 14 @ Villanova, Jan 16 @ Georgetown (3 games in 6 days using MLK Day)
- Homestand 3: Jan 20 vs Georgetown, Jan 22 vs Marquette
- Roadtrip 3: Jan 27 @ Xavier, Jan 29 @ Butler (2 games in 3 days)
- Homestand 5: Feb 7 vs Providence, Feb 11 vs Seton Hall
- Roadtrip 4: Feb 15 @ Marquette, Feb 18 @ DePaul, Feb 20 @ Creighton (3 games in 6 days using President's Day)
- Homestand 5: Feb 25 vs St. John's, Mar 1 vs Villanova, Mar 4 vs Xavier
This gives a week off for Christmas. It takes advantage of the winter holiday to get the first road trip in. It takes advantage of MLK Day to get the second road trip in with minimal days missed. The third road trip is a Friday/Sunday so minimal class is missed. They get the obligatory random Big East week off from Jan 29-Feb 7. The final road trip takes advantage of President's Day.
None of these trips are overly grueling. It mimics the current Big East schedule. By week, they would play 1/1/2/3/2/2/2/1/2/2/2/2 games. So only one week would have 3 games, they get plenty of breaks, and only two extended road trips while class is going on, both of which utilize a federal holiday to allow for an easier schedule. Honestly, I don't think this is any more difficult than the current 20 game Big East schedule.
All this said...I still don't see it, but if I can put this together in 20 minutes then I think the Big East and Gonzaga can work it out for at least their one main sport. Especially if you bring the women's team along with for all those trips and have them alternate where they play. The multiple locations would assure both teams have an opponent without doubling up.
It's definitely do-able for hoops .. but what about all the other sports? Are the benefits going to be worth scheduling/funding 2,500-mile roads trips for cross country, tennis, soccer, etc.?
I'll continue to ask: What is Gonzaga once Mark Few leaves? He'll be sixty this season. How much longer does he want to do this? Who's going to Spokane, WA to take over when he does leave?Gonzaga was good before Few.
Heck, what will they be without Tommy Lloyd? They have 1 recruit signed and he's a 3 star. They weren't close to as good this year as they were last year. They'll still win a ton of games in their conference until they leave, but will they be a national title contender annually?
Gonzaga was good before Few.
No idea. It comes down to whether or not the financial boost from Hoops offsets the losses for the other sports, because they will certainly operate at more of a loss now than they currently do. But if you can batch trips and sports, it might be possible. Especially if you're suddenly in a league where the other teams are getting you 8-10 NCAA credits instead of 2-3 and your television rights skyrocket (especially when they will probably drop in the WCC with BYU headed to the B12). Gonzaga accounts for more than 70% of the WCC's NCAA credits, that's a lot of heavy lifting that proportionally helps the rest of the league more than it does them.They still have a lot of travel required for the WCC. Not that it's nearly the same what BE would be, but BE travel wouldn't be entirely incremental.
They still have a lot of travel required for the WCC. Not that it's nearly the same what BE would be, but BE travel wouldn't be entirely incremental.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1511803383807684612?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1511803383807684612%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-5286923761645357718.ampproject.net%2F2203172113000%2Fframe.html
Dig out the Ron Paul gif ... it's happening for Queens University!Thank God! No we can have a legitimate National Champion in basketball by having Queens in D1. I think we all are tired of hearing "you know Villanova is pretty good, but could they beat Queens?".
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article261181172.html#storylink=cpy
Queens University of Charlotte took another step toward becoming an NCAA Division I school on Friday.
The university’s board of trustees on Thursday unanimously voted to accept an invitation from the Atlantic Sun Conference, putting in motion the transition to Division I athletics competition, according to a news release. The four-year transitional period will begin July 1, the release said.
The Atlanta-based Atlantic Sun has 14 public and private members, including Jacksonville, Liberty, Lipscomb, Florida Gulf Coast and Jacksonville State universities. The Royals will be the only North Carolina program in the conference.
Mecklenburg County currently has two Division I schools, UNC Charlotte and Davidson College. There are 18 Division I schools in North Carolina. Winthrop in Rock Hill, S.C., competes in the Division I Big South Conference.
Queens does not have a football team, which could save costs during the move, but the university will have to increase the number of scholarships offered in many sports, The Charlotte Observer previously reported.
The university will be leaving the South Atlantic Conference. The school became a power in the conference and Division II, winning six national titles in men’s and women’s swimming and diving. The Royals’ men’s basketball team capped off its 2022 season with a 17-game winning streak that ended in March with a loss to Augusta with 2 seconds remaining in the Division II Southeast Regional championship game.
Thank God! No we can have a legitimate National Champion in basketball by having Queens in D1. I think we all are tired of hearing "you know Villanova is pretty good, but could they beat Queens?".
It’s not that complicated. In addition to bringing in Gonzaga, you also add Notre Dame and Kansas.
You split into two divisions, West and East
West is Gonzaga, Creighton, Kansas, DePaul, Marquette, Butler and Notre Dame
East is St. John’s, GTown, Providence, Villanova, Xavier, Seton Hall and UConn
Round robin in your division and 8 games against the other division, 4 road and 4 home. You play 1 team twice based on standings from the previous year.
Beep, boop, bop. You sell your TV rights to the highest bidder and watch the cash flow in.
That’ll be $5,000,000 consulting fee
It’s not that complicated. In addition to bringing in Gonzaga, you also add Notre Dame and Kansas.Power 5 Football schools are not going to join a non football conference.
You split into two divisions, West and East
West is Gonzaga, Creighton, Kansas, DePaul, Marquette, Butler and Notre Dame
East is St. John’s, GTown, Providence, Villanova, Xavier, Seton Hall and UConn
Round robin in your division and 8 games against the other division, 4 road and 4 home. You play 1 team twice based on standings from the previous year.
Beep, boop, bop. You sell your TV rights to the highest bidder and watch the cash flow in.
That’ll be $5,000,000 consulting fee
Power 5 Football schools are not going to join a non football conference.
I am not saying we should or that we should like it, but the most likely schools that fit in are St Louis and either Dayton and Loyola. If you take Dayton, then you put a Ohio school in each division. If you take Loyola than you put a Chicago school in each division. I rather just take Gonzaga and split into two 6 team divisions
Eastern division(traditional members)
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
Uconn
Villanova
St. John's
If you go to 7
Dayton or Loyola
Western division(newer members)
Gonzaga
Creighton
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Butler
If you go to 7
St. Louis
No thanks. Divisions in basketball leagues are going away at most places. The BE shouldn't adopt them now.
Sounds like Gonzaga is definitely bouncing, its just a matter of where.
I dont like losing the round robin.
Might be time to eject a team.
Nope, try again. The only option for them is the Mountain West. They’re getting what they want with the WCC not expanding and keeping 75% of their tourney units.What do you mean by "try again?"
Power 5 Football schools are not going to join a non football conference.
I am not saying we should or that we should like it, but the most likely schools that fit in are St Louis and either Dayton and Loyola. If you take Dayton, then you put a Ohio school in each division. If you take Loyola than you put a Chicago school in each division. I rather just take Gonzaga and split into two 6 team divisions
Eastern division(traditional members)
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
Uconn
Villanova
St. John's
If you go to 7
Dayton or Loyola
Western division(newer members)
Gonzaga
Creighton
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Butler
If you go to 7
St. Louis
What do you mean by "try again?"I'm curious too.
What do you mean by "try again?"
Someone is reporting UCLA and USC to the Big Ten.
If true the NCAA is probably all but completely done for.
Why would the NCAA be done for?
They'd probably just boot a few like Rutgers and Maryland and slide Gonzaga to the PAC. Is this just for football or basketball too?
"It's too far for Gonzaga to be in the Big East!"...LOL.
What about travel 😂😂
Gotta wonder what schools like Notre Dame, Clemson, Florida State are thinking right now...
I'd throw in Oregon, Duke, North Carolina as well.
Immediate "losers" that come to mind: Arizona, Washington, all the remaining future Big 12 schools.
Gonzaga players can’t fly that far cause it’s too long sitting on a private jet.
Big ten and SEC will continue to poach until 2 30 team mega conferences. Then go on their own for football
Reporting coming out that the Big 10 presidents met last night and it was either unanimous or nearly unanimous to add UCLA/USC, and it'll be formally announced soon (like perhaps this evening). That's crazy this didn't leak sooner.
Completely agree with Uncle Rico, schools like Louisville/WVU/Syracuse/Arizona State that are "decent" markets get left behind. Schools like Oregon St/Wash St/Va Tech/Iowa St are really going to be left in no man's land.
I still think schools like Louisville, Syracuse, West Virginia, VATech, NC State and Wake get left behind.
BC and GATech get poached because “markets”, similar to Miami.
FSU and Clemson will make a lot of sense for the SEC.
The fight will be over UNC, Duke and Virginia and I think the SEC will end up with two of them
I am very much looking forward to the day when some of the schools that get left behind decide it is more profitable to drop their football programs and join the Big East for basketball. Welcome Kansas and Lousiville!
We are a long way from that happening.
It’ll happen much quicker than you think. My guess is Kansas announces within the year, they’ll move to the BE followed by some other bigger hoops centric schools.
We are a long way from that happening.
Oh for goodness sakes no. There is zero chance Kansas is dropping football "within the year."
There are other options between staying in B12 and dropping their football program.
Well they aren't going independent if that's what you mean. Kansas and the B12 are in markedly better shape than UConn was in the American.
Not if the b12 falls apart and turns into the American. I’m thinking long term here not present day.
My guess is Kansas announces within the year, they’ll move to the BE followed by some other bigger hoops centric schools.
What? You said:
I anticipate the B12 will fall apart and my guess is that Kansas administrators have that same hunch. They’ll make a move soon. Just my opinion.
From a Badger fan perspective, I’d have to imagine this move is really “meh”. I assume USC/UCLA would be in the West division. That would mean Purdue and Northwestern (just guessing based on geography) would move over to the East. So, Badger fans would see Michigan and Ohio State at home once every 4 years?
Oh for goodness sakes no. There is zero chance Kansas is dropping football "within the year."
I’d also guess Kansas has had these discussions for a long time with various leagues and know the scenarios
Divisions are going away any time now. Maybe as soon as this is announced.
I don't think Kansas can legal drop football entirely "within the year". What is more likely is they join the big east in 2025 with with Gonzaga, and their football team will go independent.
Why would Kansas do this? How does this make them more money?
Independence in football is a completely loser move. Even a school with a big fanbase and nice tradition in BYU couldn't make it work. And the B12 is still going to make money in football. Not SEC or B10 money for sure, but way more than they would going independent.
And the B12 is still going to be a very good basketball conference. Baylor, Texas Tech, Houston, etc. IMO that's just as good as the BE.
So unless the B12 breaks apart with some sort of P12 merger, I just don't see this happening. And even if that DOES happen, I would guess that Kansas would be on the inside.
Is maintaining a zombie football league with Oregon State, Wazzu, the Arizona schools, BYU, Colorado and what’s left in Texas good enough for them to maintain a football program in that league or barnstorm as an independent?
I don’t think we know. The new Big Whatever and SEC will eat the majority of the TV money.
The above line up would still be a decent television draw. Those aren't dinky schools with disinterested fanbases.
I think the point still remains though. Less games against the rivals is not a positive development for Big Ten fans especially. The brand is getting pretty diluted.
There are other options between staying in B12 and dropping their football program.
Why would Kansas do this? How does this make them more money?
Independence in football is a completely loser move. Even a school with a big fanbase and nice tradition in BYU couldn't make it work. And the B12 is still going to make money in football. Not SEC or B10 money for sure, but way more than they would going independent.
And the B12 is still going to be a very good basketball conference. Baylor, Texas Tech, Houston, etc. IMO that's just as good as the BE.
So unless the B12 breaks apart with some sort of P12 merger, I just don't see this happening. And even if that DOES happen, I would guess that Kansas would be on the inside.
The only people interested in those football programs are fans of those football programs. Zero cache
Sure there are other options, but Kansas is a bottom feeder to any football centric conference. They bring no additional revenue opportunities. It's possible one of these conferences will give some thought to basketball and let KU's contribution to football slide, but it's quite possible Kansas is left out of the fold.
At that point, Kansas can remain in some tier 2 football conference, but the football program can easily become a cost as opposed to revenue generating and funding the other sports. At that point, the Big East becomes attractive to allow their basketball program to remain a powerhouse and print money. I'm not saying anything in imminent, but it is not far fetched...
The only people interested in those football programs are fans of those football programs. Zero cache
Isn't that true of all football programs?
And BYU has a massive national following.
No - personally, I greatly look forward to SEC game of the week on cbs, watching good b10 football etc. non betting neutrals aren’t tuning in for Colorado Washington football.
Those aren't football programs. Those are the top game of the week from a conference.
You said "The only people interested in those football programs, are fans of those programs," that statement is true about all teams.
Now in any given year, if a team is a legit title contender, people will tune into those programs games, until they are no longer a title contender, that would include teams like BYU, Houston, TCU, etc., that were in that list you were writing about.
The above line up would still be a decent television draw. Those aren't dinky schools with disinterested fanbases.
Either way, the Big East is in a very good spot today
I think the point still remains though. Less games against the rivals is not a positive development for Big Ten fans especially. The brand is getting pretty diluted.
Is it though? I really don't know if that's the case. These schools are going to be making even more money, and the BE has a media deal that ends in 2025. Last time they had a partner who needed programming. Is that partner, or another one, going to make a similar or better offer next time?
I am not convinced they are.
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
Gonzaga?
Realignment will come full circle when Boston College, Pittsburgh and Syracuse come crawling back to the Big East to save their basketball programs. There is zero chance that they get elevated and 100% chance that they get left behind.
Don't surprised to see BYU try to get out of the Big 12 and go to the Pac instead.I can't imagine the B12 wouldn't have a iron clad agreement with BYU or the other 3 new schools. That would be an epic gaff on the B12.
UCLA and USC to the Big 14/16 is a done deal
Kinda incredible that this was kept private until less than six hours from becoming official.
Gonzaga to the Big East should be announced shortlyWouldn't surprise me.
Wouldn't surprise me.
Hearing UNC to Big10. Not a new rumor I know but sounds very likely.
That was always Jim Delany’s great white whale as a Tar Heel alum. They fit with academics. I think the push will be to get 20, 2 on the eastern time zone and 2 on the western time zoneCoach K will be tuning in his grave .......oops! ;D
Coach K will be tuning in his grave .......oops! ;D
Wouldn't surprise me.
Hearing UNC to Big10. Not a new rumor I know but sounds very likely.
From a basketball perspective, this devalues the PAC considerably. UCLA is one of the top blue bloods in the game. Unless the PAC backfills with Kansas, that is a basketball brand they cannot replace.
If the PAC TV deal with Fox is now driven down, this also helps the Big East's position with Fox for its next TV deal, especially if more PAC programs are poached by the B1G.
If I were the Big Ten, I would go all in on the west coast. Oregon, Washington, Stanford, Cal.
Then the remaining six can join up with the Big 12 to make a decent conference.
Cause I think the problem with any ACC school is the grant of rights issue.
If so, I'd expect the Big10 to grab 2 teams. Likely UNC/Duke to keep the rivalry.I don't see rivalries playing any role in this.
But wouldn't be shocked if it was UNC/Virginia.
They are going to want to grab top academic schools.
I don't see rivalries playing any role in this.
I envision a state where for football only, the 2, 30 team leagues breakaway and form a professional minor league system funded by donors and tv contracts. They remain affiliated with their respective schools by name and campus location only. They won't go to school, are not students, won't be held to ncaa restrictions, and get paid 50-100k a year to get ready for the nfl. NFL teams will fund their minor league farm schools as well, so roughly 2 farm schools per NFL team. It's all driven by money. The "school" aspect only gets in the way so let's call it what it is. Minor league sports. I'm in.I agree. I also seeing the end game with all school affiliations going away; more money if you can cast a wider net for fans.
I envision a state where for football only, the 2, 30 team leagues breakaway and form a professional minor league system funded by donors and tv contracts. They remain affiliated with their respective schools by name and campus location only. They won't go to school, are not students, won't be held to ncaa restrictions, and get paid 50-100k a year to get ready for the nfl. NFL teams will fund their minor league farm schools as well, so roughly 2 farm schools per NFL team. It's all driven by money. The "school" aspect only gets in the way so let's call it what it is. Minor league sports. I'm in.
I agree. I also seeing the end game with all school affiliations going away; more money if you can cast a wider net for fans.
Bring it on!!
I don't see rivalries playing any role in this.
Agreed. No one is going to watch the Ann Arbor minor league football club. A stadium of 100K is consistently packed for the U of Michigan.If attendance had anything to do with what is happening, UCLA would be in the MWC.
Going back to a previous post... how does Notre Dame get screwed? It would make this mess a little more palatable.
Is it though? I really don't know if that's the case. These schools are going to be making even more money, and the BE has a media deal that ends in 2025. Last time they had a partner who needed programming. Is that partner, or another one, going to make a similar or better offer next time?
I am not convinced they are.
Realignment will come full circle when Boston College, Pittsburgh and Syracuse come crawling back to the Big East to save their basketball programs. There is zero chance that they get elevated and 100% chance that they get left behind.
I'm nervous about where we stand. Ratings aren't great by any means and the most lucrative offer could be from a streaming service with limited reach. The sheer financial might of the SEC/B10 is going to make the arms race almost impossible to keep up with. Pretty sure that Kansas rumor was from a troll account.
We have tradition and dedicated fanbases, but they're small compared to the big state football schools. We'll never draw comparable ratings which will likely prevent the truly big TV revenue. It's a tough spot. Kansas and Gonzaga would be game changers. That's why geography shouldn't be a consideration.
If attendance had anything to do with what is happening, UCLA would be in the MWC.
https://depauliaonline.com/55502/sports/big-east-conference-rumored-to-expand/
Zags…
https://depauliaonline.com/55502/sports/big-east-conference-rumored-to-expand/
Zags…
[/quote
This is also from October of 2021. This articles facts are almost as poorly researched as depaul has been coached for the past 30 years.
So where does the P12 go next? They missed on BYU. I assume SDSU, Fresno St., Eastern Washington, Colorado St, UNLV?
In terms of geography and relevance the ones that make the most sense are San Diego State, Boise State, Wyoming, UNLV, Colorado State, Nevada, New Mexico, Hawaii, and Utah State
https://depauliaonline.com/55502/sports/big-east-conference-rumored-to-expand/
Zags…
Can't argue with that. I also think that the "real" UW brings more value than UCLA. Maybe they add them the next time they choose to pillage the west coast.
Not sure about that. UCLA was taken due to the huge local presence in the LA market. And they have a way more recognizable brand than UW.
I'm nervous about where we stand. Ratings aren't great by any means and the most lucrative offer could be from a streaming service with limited reach. The sheer financial might of the SEC/B10 is going to make the arms race almost impossible to keep up with. Pretty sure that Kansas rumor was from a troll account.
We have tradition and dedicated fanbases, but they're small compared to the big state football schools. We'll never draw comparable ratings which will likely prevent the truly big TV revenue. It's a tough spot. Kansas and Gonzaga would be game changers. That's why geography shouldn't be a consideration.
The P12 will also be looking through the following list:
Duke
Virginia
Georgia Tech
Kansas
UNC
Pitt
People keep talking about Kansas to the BE, but if the P12 looks to expand, they'll be targeted. You will also note that the P12 target list is quite barren, which means either they have to abandon the idea of targeting AAU schools, or largely abandon the idea of expansion. I can see them making an exception to the AAU list for BYU though.
So the PAC is losing USC/UCLA and the BIG 12 lost OK/Texas. Would not the smart option for PAC and BIG 12 be to merge into one conference and then the they can all poach the ACC into oblivion.
I'm nervous about where we stand. Ratings aren't great by any means and the most lucrative offer could be from a streaming service with limited reach. The sheer financial might of the SEC/B10 is going to make the arms race almost impossible to keep up with. Pretty sure that Kansas rumor was from a troll account.
We have tradition and dedicated fanbases, but they're small compared to the big state football schools. We'll never draw comparable ratings which will likely prevent the truly big TV revenue. It's a tough spot. Kansas and Gonzaga would be game changers. That's why geography shouldn't be a consideration.
If so, I'd expect the Big10 to grab 2 teams. Likely UNC/Duke to keep the rivalry.
But wouldn't be shocked if it was UNC/Virginia.
They are going to want to grab top academic schools.
The PAC will have to get over their focus on academics. They decided not to expand in large part, because they didn't want to add any more non-AAU schools. The B12 is chock-full of them.Funny to think any conference with ASU has academic standards.
The opening to save the Big 12 just happened.While I'm not sure the B12 needs saving, they just did as well as anyone could expect with expansion and distributed record revenues (I know the UT, OU will hurt big time), you make good points. I think Stanford and Cal are in a bad spot too. I don't know much about Cal, but a reporter on the radio claimed that Cal's facilities and commitment to sports are not very good.
I'm guessing that unless there is a BIG raid to the Pacific Northwest, Washington, Oregon, California and Stanford would have to be ideal candidates for the 12. That would move the Big 12 to 16 members, leaving the only open question being whether Colorado would come back.
Oregon State and Washington State, Arizona and Arizona State would be out in the cold, meaning they'd be members of the Mountain West. I could somehow see the Big 12 moving on the Arizona schools, but the Beavs and the Cougs are in real trouble.
This article was sobering to read:
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/03/championship-week-college-basketball-ratings-big-ten-acc-sec-pac-12/ (https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/03/championship-week-college-basketball-ratings-big-ten-acc-sec-pac-12/)
While the article compares ratings only for the conference tournament championships game, the Villanova/Creighton final drew only marginally more viewers than the A10's Richmond/Davidson matchup, and actually wound up with a worse TV rating.
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/03/championship-week-college-basketball-ratings-big-ten-acc-sec-pac-12/ (https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2022/03/championship-week-college-basketball-ratings-big-ten-acc-sec-pac-12/)
And I don't think Gonzaga is the game changer you suggest. The WCC conference championship game between Gonzaga and St Marys drew even fewer viewers than the BE or A10 championship and was one of only two conferences showing a decline in viewership. Even worse is that this decline came in the face of the tailwind of Gonzaga's season-long publicity at the top of the rankings and march to a #1 seed.
I'm beginning to think that the best play for the Big East as a corporate entitiy is not to poach teams from the A10 or WCC or MVC, but to acquire or merge with those conferences corporately, continue to operate them independently, curate individual cross-conference non-con matchups where it makes sense (e.g. Loyola vs. DePaul), and market the whole package of 40-some teams to the TV networks as a media entity delivering a true nationwide footprint with a ton of available content.
No one is tuning in to watch Ann Arbor minor league club eitherAnd USC will never be in a conference with Rutgers.
And USC will never be in a conference with Rutgers.Marquette's basketball program has been constantly on the move over its existence. Rivals and conferences come and go, but we still watch. Professional sports teams move divisions, conferences, and cities, but we still watch.
Never underestimate the power of gambling in all of this. Michigan, the Big10, Fox and ESPN don't care is only 20,000 people show up to a game. This is about Money, TV ratings and gambling that drive the ratings.
Take gambling out of CFB and CBB, and the rating would be awful. The NCAA Tourney golden goose of college sports, without gambling, would be a small fraction of what it is now.
My point is, I don't think anyone cares if University of Michigan has football. They care about TV, Money, and money. And if players can get paid better by Ann Arbor football than the University of Michigan, than that is where the superior talent will go.
School pride, conference loyalty, traditional rivals are all antiquated notions of a bygone era. Players, coaches and TV networks demand to be paid.
And USC will never be in a conference with Rutgers.
Never underestimate the power of gambling in all of this. Michigan, the Big10, Fox and ESPN don't care is only 20,000 people show up to a game. This is about Money, TV ratings and gambling that drive the ratings.
Take gambling out of CFB and CBB, and the rating would be awful. The NCAA Tourney golden goose of college sports, without gambling, would be a small fraction of what it is now.
My point is, I don't think anyone cares if University of Michigan has football. They care about TV, Money, and money. And if players can get paid better by Ann Arbor football than the University of Michigan, than that is where the superior talent will go.
School pride, conference loyalty, traditional rivals are all antiquated notions of a bygone era. Players, coaches and TV networks demand to be paid.
So why isn't any other minor league a major cash cow? Or even a minor cash cow?I submit to you college basketball and football have acted as minor leagues and have been cash cows.
"The Big East is filled with mostly mid-major"The reality is you will be considered mid-major, if you do not have football.
And I stopped reading. Lol
The reality is you will be considered mid-major, if you do not have football.
Twitter reports from Big 12 sources, Kansas is talking to Big East and going independent in football
Twitter reports from Big 12 sources, Kansas is talking to Big East and going independent in football
That would be very surprising considering that offer would always be on the table. No reason for them to jump the gun here.
Twitter reports from Big 12 sources, Kansas is talking to Big East and going independent in footballI would LOVE for this to be true but it make zero sense.
I submit to you college basketball and football have acted as minor leagues and have been cash cows.
Foreign basketball pays very well as a minor league for the NBA.
There has never been a serious attempt for minor leagues as you see in MLB due to college competition, but we've never had serious competition for the PGA Tour until now either and here we are.
I don't know if college sports will prevail but I do know anyone who can make money at it, players, coaches, TV, IRS and foreign investors, will tear it down before they give up trying.
The reality is you will be considered mid-major, if you do not have football.The perception or terminology maybe "mid-major", the undisputable facts are that the Big East is top 4-5 (2-5 depending on year) basketball conference.
The perception or terminology maybe "mid-major", the undisputable facts are that the Big East is top 4-5 (2-5 depending on year) basketball conference.
Marquette's basketball program has been constantly on the move over its existence. Rivals and conferences come and go, but we still watch. Professional sports teams move divisions, conferences, and cities, but we still watch.
The perception or terminology maybe "mid-major", the undisputable facts are that the Big East is top 4-5 (2-5 depending on year) basketball conference.However, you are only thinking in terms of basketball. Big East is very good in basketball, but their sports program as a whole is going to be perceived as mid-major. The general sports public does not think about the Big East during football season.
The perception or terminology maybe "mid-major", the undisputable facts are that the Big East is top 4-5 (2-5 depending on year) basketball conference.
That and $80 will fill my gas tank.I never meant my comment as some sort of demand or expectation to be grouped in with the P5(4). Lack of football is a massive differentiator. 'Mid major' is a sort of slang term and not an official designation but the Big East is high-major by any objective measure for basketball. Those who call the BE mid-major are trolls trying to get under Big East fan's skin. The same 'trolls' have called the SEC and Pac 12 mid-major for years also.
The NCAA has a separate rules sin some categories for the “Autonomy Five.” The other conferences, the Big East included, does not have to follow those rules. It’s us and them and sorry to say, we won’t be invited into their club and even those in it now are about to be asked to leave.
Curious what happens when the schools that are accustomed to constant success can no longer maintain that level of winning in the new mega-conferences. There can only be one B16 and SEC champion after all.I guess it depends on what your definition of success is. Given that very few programs actually compete for a playoff spot regularly, I don’t think this is a huge issue. The last few decades we’ve seen plenty of schools go from elite to mediocre or worse. They still get 100k people in attendance.
A minor league based on school affiliation. I don't see them week electing to give up something making them literally billions to try to make something work that has never worked before despite multiple attempts.
The big schools may break off from the NCAA one day and not take the Big East with them. I don't think it will happen but I see why others do. Completely dropping school affiliation in favor of the a glorified g league? Not going to happen.
Kansas to the Big East so Creighton is no longer the dirtiest program?
Add Gonzaga, ND & Kansas and not have to worry about anything for 50 years.
A couple of side notes:
Some UCONN fans on Boneyard are sure that the ACC will come calling soon. Must be something in the water in Storrs,
What will Bill Walton say in lieu of "Conference of Champions" over and over again when announcing PAC games?
A couple of side notes:
Some UCONN fans on Boneyard are sure that the ACC will come calling soon. Must be something in the water in Storrs,
What will Bill Walton say in lieu of "Conference of Champions" over and over again when announcing PAC games?
I think the Big East can be in a position to be a predator in conference realignment. It might not happen this year but they should be finding ways to bring some of these schools (and Gonzaga) into the fold so we can make our own basketball super conference. Make it so there is no doubt that the top basketball conference is neither the Big 10 nor the SEC so if they ever do break off and try to form their own tournament, they have to work with us or risk a direct competitor that gets just as many eyeballs.
I don't know if it can be pulled off, but that's the direction we should be heading.
Maebea MU kan join da Big 10 inn basketball only, hey?none off us on here would say no if were being honest. it ovbiously wont ever hapen tho anyways
They might, but the ACC is dead. UNC, FSU, Clemson, Virginia and Georgia Tech are as good as gone. Miami and Duke will be interesting but I’d bet they’ll both be gone
I can see a scenario whereby the Big East schools are left out holding their johnsons, aina?
The worst Power 5 scores attendance wise for football. Five-year average attendance figures. 130 total schools.
80. Kansas 26,110
79. Duke 27,115
78 Wake Forest 27,081
74 Vanderbilt 29,810
73 Wash St. 30,339
64 Boston Co. 34,018
63 Oregon St. 35,017
62 Syracuse 35,608
60 Northwestern 37,125
57 Maryland 39,001
56 Illinois 39.831
At what point does football become too expensive to keep? Especially for Duke and Kansas.
All of these schools will have football 20 years from now.
The newly expanded super conferences, hey?
I can see a scenario whereby the Big East schools are left out holding their johnsons, aina?COLE Grandpa
Estimates project that ND could pay between $100 and $175 million to the ACC for breaking the GOR. If they do end up in the Big Ten, it's wild that they'd be able to pay off their exit fees with 2 years (if the market projections of $120 million per B1G school are accurate).
If ND finds a way out of the ACC GOR, rest assured Florida State, Clemson and North Carolina will do so as well. The ACC is in big trouble.
Estimates project that ND could pay between $100 and $175 million to the ACC for breaking the GOR. If they do end up in the Big Ten, it's wild that they'd be able to pay off their exit fees with 2 years (if the market projections of $120 million per B1G school are accurate).
If ND finds a way out of the ACC GOR, rest assured Florida State, Clemson and North Carolina will do so as well. The ACC is in big trouble.
If 7 schools + ND want to leave, they can force the dissolution of the conference and not owe anyone media rights or payouts.
UNC, Virginia, and ND to the B10
Clemson, Miami + 2 others to the SEC
And there is no ACC anymore.
I think the Big East can be in a position to be a predator in conference realignment. It might not happen this year but they should be finding ways to bring some of these schools (and Gonzaga) into the fold so we can make our own basketball superconference.
What do people see in Gonzaga? It's Butler circa 2012.
What do people see in Gonzaga? It's Butler circa 2012.Better than Georgetown right now, hey
Better than Georgetown right now, hey
I've been thinking more about this. We don't know how long it will take but it seems inevitable that we are heading to 2 super football conferences. The only questions are how bloated these behemoths will get and who will make the cut and who will be left in the in the ACC/P12/B12 which will be the equivalent of the AAC/MWC/Sun Belt.
It seems certain that there will be some top basketball programs who don't make the cut as well as some solid basketball programs with large state school alumni bases. Programs like Kansas, Duke, North Carolina, Miami (FL), Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, Wake Forest, Boston College, Washington, Oregon, Cal, Stanford, Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Baylor, Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Texas Tech, BYU...some of them will get the coveted B1G/SEC invite, but I think most are left on the outside looking it.
I think the Big East can be in a position to be a predator in conference realignment. It might not happen this year but they should be finding ways to bring some of these schools (and Gonzaga) into the fold so we can make our own basketball superconference. Make it so there is no doubt that the top basketball conference is neither the the Big 10 nor the SEC so if they ever do break off and try to form their own tournament, they have to work with us or risk a direct competitor that gets just as many eyeballs.
I don't know if it can be pulled off, but that's the direction we should be heading.
Big question is when does the SEC say, "Thank you Vanderbilt. It has been a pleasure having you."
If it's about the total athletic program, it will never happen. Vandy is great in baseball and has had its basketball moments. Some of their basketball players have been very, very good.
But if it's about football, which I think it is, Vanderbilt is on borrowed time. The SEC won't ask 'em to leave, per se, but they'll ask for massive upgrades to Dudley Field, improved competitiveness that requires Vanderbilt to recruit athletes they won't chase today and minimum attendance expectations.
They may be able to get around the stadium issue by playing at Nissan Stadium, or the new Metro Field that's being debated in Nashville, but the academics and attendance will be a big problem.
I agree. But they will all continue to lose money on it.
Big question is when does the SEC say, "Thank you Vanderbilt. It has been a pleasure having you."I would be worried too if I was Vandy. I say this in all seriousness; now that academics are not part of the equation, the SEC does not need Vandy. Football is the ONLY factor in all of this and Vandy does not fit the SEC/BIG10 model membership. You can make a better case for UAB than Vandy. Or maybe Vandy isn't worried and is ready to move on, the University of Chicago has done just fine without the BIG10.
If it's about the total athletic program, it will never happen. Vandy is great in baseball and has had its basketball moments. Some of their basketball players have been very, very good.
But if it's about football, which I think it is, Vanderbilt is on borrowed time. The SEC won't ask 'em to leave, per se, but they'll ask for massive upgrades to Dudley Field, improved competitiveness that requires Vanderbilt to recruit athletes they won't chase today and minimum attendance expectations.
They may be able to get around the stadium issue by playing at Nissan Stadium, or the new Metro Field that's being debated in Nashville, but the academics and attendance will be a big problem.
I would be worried too if I was Vandy. I say this in all seriousness; now that academics are not part of the equation, the SEC does not need Vandy. Football is the ONLY factor in all of this and Vandy does not fit the SEC/BIG10 model membership. You can make a better case for UAB than Vandy. Or maybe Vandy isn't worried and is ready to move on, the University of Chicago has done just fine without the BIG10.
Nashville is a good marketTrue, but Houston is a great market and its not on anyone's radar.
Why wouldn't the leftovers not form their own conference especially schools like UNC, Kansas and Duke the basketball blue bloods. Sure, football is driving all this but I think there is a strong basketball after taste who will not get left out in left field. When you think about it, how many schools have consistently fielded good football and basketball teams? As one who does not follow college football, off the top of my hat the only schools that come to mind are Ohio State and Wisconsin. I am sure there are others but not many.
True, but Houston is a great market and its not on anyone's radar.
True, but Houston is a great market and its not on anyone's radar.
The SEC isn't kicking out Vanderbilt. The history of conferences kicking out a member for non-competitiveness are few and far between (and messy to say the least - see Temple/Big East). As the lone private institution in the SEC, there is also great financial value in the conference having Vanderbilt (in addition to the academic association they bring). Now, Vanderbilt could one day say "this is too much and we can't continue down this path". However, no President or BOT wants to be an ex-President or ex-Board member by willingly turning down ~$80-100 million annually I'm television revenue. That certainly isn't happening either.You're probably right but "academic association" means nothing.
Better than Georgetown right now, heyLOL was a joke
With streaming platforms and pay for programming coming into play, the market grab will become less and less prevalent.
I've oft3n wondered about them. On paper they should be a bigger player in realignment. Maybe the SEC feels like TAMU and TU already deliver the Houston market
That’s incorrect. The market matters for alumni that live in said markets
Won't happen for the same reason the C7, UC, UConn and USF didn't dissolve the Big East in 2012: no one is forfeiting tournament credits or (hypothetical) exit fees.
I think brand recognition matters much more at this point than market. Houston is an interesting example. While I don’t personally know the perception of the university within the city, they could be a huge given their recent commitment athletic success.
However adding a random school from a big market does not boost conference caliber. Smart additions from programs with a track record of success is the way to go moving forward to appeal to a national, streaming audience.
Big 16 says, see Rutgers and Maryland
The remaining schools will not have a choice if the majority vote for dissolution. There may be enough going to the SEC, and B10 to force a dissolution of the ACC.
Big 16 says, see Rutgers and Maryland
I think brand recognition matters much more at this point than market. Houston is an interesting example. While I don’t personally know the perception of the university within the city, they could be a huge given their recent commitment athletic success.
However adding a random school from a big market does not boost conference caliber. Smart additions from programs with a track record of success is the way to go moving forward to appeal to a national, streaming audience.
You’re making my point. Rutgers and Maryland have no brand recognition. They’re not growing the b10 brand. Usc and ucla will absolutely do that.
Rutgers and Maryland were worthless additions with the idea of eastern expansion. Usc and ucla could be located anywhere and they both carry the name that will excite common fans anywhere.
They weren't worthless by a long-shot. Adding both jumped the Big Ten payouts to over $50 million annually, a benefit that every single Big Ten President, BOT, AD and football program would do over again and twice on Sunday.
Jim Delaney negotiating amazing tv deals increased payouts - not rutgers and Maryland.
I'm afraid you're not giving the network executives due credit. While Delaney had long sought an Eastern presence, he never in a million years would have recommended both additions to Presidents had networks (i.e. Fox) not given the valuation data on what a new TV payout would bring. Neither Delaney, the Presidents or fans determine that number; networks do.
Delaney was sensational in continuing to negotiate short-term deals regularly. The ACC and AAC unfortunately did not get that memo.
They already have an east coast presence with far more value in Penn State. The distribution values increased as big ten networks availability on cable and recently streaming services increased.
You do realize that Penn State alone could not and does not carry the east coast by itself tight? Penn State had long wanted additional eastern presence. Again, getting into the DC and NJ markets (for viewership, recruiting and exposure) was a home run, regardless of whether Maryland or Rutgers ever compete for a championship in football.
I’m just curious how two programs with no football history and small football followings are alone responsible for such a massive bump? All of a sudden fans on the east coast just start to care about b10 because two bad programs within the general vicinity of their homes are added to the conference ?
Because the networks determine that value. They saw new TV boxes in NJ (and NY) and DC, two areas with strong B1G alumni presence. Adding those two top-10 media markets significantly added to the Midwestern presence the B1G already had. The fact that both were/are AAU, offer strong academics and invest heavily in academic research was icing on the cake.
Rutgers and Maryland were not added for athletic branding; they were added for their institutional fit, media market and increases exposure on the east coast. Delaney long sought an Eastern wing, and the networks determined great value in that pursuit as well (just like Fox determined adding USC and UCLA bring new payouts to over $100 million with a new presence in Los Angeles).
Think about it: the B1G now resides with programs in: NYC (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3) and Philadelphia (#4). Dallas will likely jump Philadelphia soon, but the point remains. If the B1G gets Stanford to pair with ND, they then get access to the Bay area (San Francisco is #6). To note, D.C. is #7. It's possible the B1G will have direct access to six of the top-10 markets in the country (and each of those markets has a strong presence of B1G alumni).
Everything that has happened, and will happen, makes a ton of financial sense for both the conferences and networks alike.
Doing some actual research on my own - I’m wrong:-)
But - I do think going after markets will be less important with the new tv model going forward.
Because the networks determine that value. They saw new TV boxes in NJ (and NY) and DC, two areas with strong B1G alumni presence. Adding those two top-10 media markets significantly added to the Midwestern presence the B1G already had. The fact that both were/are AAU, offer strong academics and invest heavily in academic research was icing on the cake.Now if the Big Ten could get a couple good football teams , the conference would have a future .🤓
Rutgers and Maryland were not added for athletic branding; they were added for their institutional fit, media market and increases exposure on the east coast. Delaney long sought an Eastern wing, and the networks determined great value in that pursuit as well (just like Fox determined adding USC and UCLA bring new payouts to over $100 million with a new presence in Los Angeles).
Think about it: the B1G now resides with programs in: NYC (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3) and Philadelphia (#4). Dallas will likely jump Philadelphia soon, but the point remains. If the B1G gets Stanford to pair with ND, they then get access to the Bay area (San Francisco is #6). To note, D.C. is #7. It's possible the B1G will have direct access to six of the top-10 markets in the country (and each of those markets has a strong presence of B1G alumni).
Everything that has happened, and will happen, makes a ton of financial sense for both the conferences and networks alike.
Nashville is a good market
And the SEC has a huge presence in Nashville without Vanderbilt.
You ever heard of the University of Tennessee? There likely are far more Vol grads in Nashville than Commodores and the UT subway alumni in those parts is huge.
Vanderbilt will be gone if they can be replaced with a better product. Perhaps to the remnants of the ACC.
Rutgers and Maryland were all about getting the BTN on cable systems in New York and Washington. It was a very smart move by the B10.
Why isn't Baylor more coveted during conference realignment?
Their football has had flashes of brilliance often undermined by scandal. Seems to fit In SEC just right to me.
1. Private: SEC grandfathered Vanderbilt but are not seeking private schools.The worst decision ever regarding conference affiliation was Tulane (1966)and Georgia Tech (1964)voluntarily leaving the SEC
2. Size: Just 15,000--only Vandy is smaller.
3. Media market: Waco is just #87 nationally.
4. Alumni base: Predominates in central Texas, few in other SEC markets
5. Facilities: McLane Stadium seats just 45,000, its new basketball arena just 7,000.
6. SEC already has Texas & Texas A&M.
The worst decision ever regarding conference affiliation was Tulane (1966)and Georgia Tech (1964)voluntarily leaving the SEC
https://www.clarionledger.com/story/sports/college/ole-miss/2021/09/16/why-tulane-football-leave-sec-ole-miss-green-wave/8347963002/#:~:text=The%20headline%20in%20the%20Jan,Tulane%20left%20for%20conference%20independence.
https://www.macon.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/bobby-pope/article30145833.html
1. Private: SEC grandfathered Vanderbilt but are not seeking private schools.
2. Size: Just 15,000--only Vandy is smaller.
3. Media market: Waco is just #87 nationally.
4. Alumni base: Predominates in central Texas, few in other SEC markets
5. Facilities: McLane Stadium seats just 45,000, its new basketball arena just 7,000.
6. SEC already has Texas & Texas A&M.
The fact that the University denies the existence of dinosaurs is also problematic.What?? Okay, I'm personally no fan of Baylor (Baylor and Michigan State are the two schools I would not let my daughters go to), but a quick Google search shows that Baylor currently has a dinosaur exhibit at their museum.
I can see a scenario whereby the Big East schools are left out holding their johnsons, aina?
As I've mentioned before, this is what I see happening.
Can you imagine in the NFL if New York, Chicago, LA, Dallas, Philly and Atlanta decided they could get a better deal from FOX/ESPN? Maybe they could have 2x the salary of Tenn, GB, TB, Arizona? Free markets rule the day?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/vrhuhx/ksl_5_tv_utah_arizona_arizona_state_and_colorado/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=shareWould be a nice pick up for The Big 12
If I were the P12, I would try to take the four B12 schools from Texas instead. Utah, Arizona, ASU and Colorado would be insane to jump into a conference with the likes of Memphis, Cincinnati and West Virginia right now.
Pac-12 better shore up its own membership first.
If I were the P12, I would try to take the four B12 schools from Texas instead. Utah, Arizona, ASU and Colorado would be insane to jump into a conference with the likes of Memphis, Cincinnati and West Virginia right now.When did Memphis get into the B12? Or who is even talking about Memphis joining the B12 or P12? News to me.
When did Memphis get into the B12? Or who is even talking about Memphis joining the B12 or P12? News to me.
What, you can't keep all this conference affiliation stuff straight? ;D
Yep. My mistake. I assumed they were one of the new additions.
Still the point stands.
I think the Big East is in much better shape than it was before the Big 10 decided to expand west. It seems pretty clear we're moving toward two super-football conferences of 20-24 teams. But from a basketball perspective, even if they go to 30 and take over the NCAA Tournament, that's probably at most 40 bids accounted for in those two leagues. If we were looking at 4 consolidated leagues of 20 teams each, I'd be worried about getting frozen out. But most likely 48 and at most 60? The numbers just won't support it. They'll need a couple other conferences just to fill out the field with enough quality. We are on better footing now than we were before the USC/UCLA announcement.Maybe they will win enough games in the non-conference, but I just do not see enough teams in these huge conferences having overall winning records to have 40 teams warrant a bid to a national tournament.
Maybe they will win enough games in the non-conference, but I just do not see enough teams in these huge conferences having overall winning records to have 40 teams warrant a bid to a national tournament.If the football break from the NCAA, then they will have no one to play. Marquette will have zero incentive to play Wisky, ND, UCLA, etc. Non-NCAA DI don't count. Those schools will play themselves and maybe NAIA.
If the football break from the NCAA, then they will have no one to play. Marquette will have zero incentive to play Wisky, ND, UCLA, etc. Non-NCAA DI don't count. Those schools will play themselves and maybe NAIA.
Maybe they will win enough games in the non-conference, but I just do not see enough teams in these huge conferences having overall winning records to have 40 teams warrant a bid to a national tournament.
That's why I said at most 40. Even then, that's probably only if the B10 and SEC go 30 teams each and still fewer than that in most years. More likely they go to 24 each and generally get 12-16 each, with both leagues combining to max out around 30 bids.
The discussions of the P12/B12 schools sure seem to indicate there will be a third major conference, though less of a football player than the other two. That positions the Big East to be the fourth major conference.
What, you can't keep all this conference affiliation stuff straight? ;DI agree with this analysis.
Two weeks ago I'd agree with you, but now, I don't know. In today's world, AZ, ASU, Utah and Colorado seem about right for the B12.
Don’t forget the ACC.
I think the ACC will end up pillaged. They are on a similar track the Big East was on in 2011.Following the money trail of Conference network ownership is a good way to understand this.
The Big East seemed really solid when perennial top-10 football program TCU was coming in, just like how the ACC has shored themselves up over the past decade and rode the rise of Clemson in football. But now it really feels like Notre Dame and UNC will be leaving soon. Pretty much a formality that those two go. And when they do, I think that will be the "West Virginia to the Big 12" moment. Suddenly, everyone will be looking for the first life raft they can find. Miami, Virginia, FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and a few others will probably get those SEC/B10 invites. But those that don't will have two options. Jump to the next best option (B12 or for some, the UConn Big East route) or try to coddle together a reformed conference with options about as attractive as the Big East had back in 2012.
Obviously predicting realignment is a dicey proposition, but I think in the next year or so the Power 5 is about to become a Power 3 that is more like a Power 2.5 with the SEC and Big 10 at the top and the Big 12 clearly behind them but strong enough to stay relevant. I'd guess between the 3 you will see the 55-65 most prominent programs and everyone else will be left in the cold.
In the long run, Texas/Oklahoma was a significant moment, but the UCLA/USC jump is the one that feels like an absolute sea change.
I think the ACC will end up pillaged. They are on a similar track the Big East was on in 2011.
The Big East seemed really solid when perennial top-10 football program TCU was coming in, just like how the ACC has shored themselves up over the past decade and rode the rise of Clemson in football. But now it really feels like Notre Dame and UNC will be leaving soon. Pretty much a formality that those two go. And when they do, I think that will be the "West Virginia to the Big 12" moment. Suddenly, everyone will be looking for the first life raft they can find. Miami, Virginia, FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and a few others will probably get those SEC/B10 invites. But those that don't will have two options. Jump to the next best option (B12 or for some, the UConn Big East route) or try to coddle together a reformed conference with options about as attractive as the Big East had back in 2012.
Obviously predicting realignment is a dicey proposition, but I think in the next year or so the Power 5 is about to become a Power 3 that is more like a Power 2.5 with the SEC and Big 10 at the top and the Big 12 clearly behind them but strong enough to stay relevant. I'd guess between the 3 you will see the 55-65 most prominent programs and everyone else will be left in the cold.
In the long run, Texas/Oklahoma was a significant moment, but the UCLA/USC jump is the one that feels like an absolute sea change.
I just don't see how a lot of the ACC schools are going to increase the $$ per school increase to the Big Ten or SEC. Is North Carolina or Virginia really going to do that? I could see some P12 schools in those markets doing this, but even then I am not sure.
I think the bar for getting into the B10 right now is REALLY high. Right now outside of ND, I am not sure who can clear it.
I think the networks have decided that they want all these properties consolidated and will pay to make it happen.
Perhaps. But I just don't understand why.
https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-pac-12-eyeing-loose-partnership?sd=pfAnother "well informed" writer who thinks Louisville is in the Big 12. These guys have little credibility when they can even get basic facts correct.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/acc-pac-12-discuss-loose-partnership-that-could-include-championship-game-in-las-vegas/
"The ACC and Pac-12 have discussed what has been termed a "loose partnership" that could end the season with the conferences playing a "championship game" in Las Vegas, sources confirm to CBS Sports.
The concept, believed to have been proposed by the ACC, is seen as a way for the conferences' common rightsholder, ESPN, to increase the value of their current media rights contracts."
Yeah, this season the game would have been Pittsburgh v. Utah. But regardless, I wonder what schools like Miami, Clemson and Oregon think about this.
Notre Dame and North Carolina are the linchpins at this point. Both the SEC and Big will want them. If SEC got them along with FSU and Clemson they would rule the sport. If Big can land UNC and ND it would maintain 2 league balance. Of course the grant of rights is the issue with the ACC, but will it hold under all this pre$$ure?
ND is probably Big 10 only. Can't see them going to the SEC with all their worry about tradition and rivalries. UNC could go either way. My question is when they go, what happens to the rest of the Tobacco Road schools? I'm not sure any of them are all that attractive on their own merits.
Without major conference football money there could be schools following the UConn path of giving up their expensive and money losing football dreams. Among them: Stanford, Kansas, Duke, Wake, Syracuse, BC. Then the Big East becomes relevant again in the conference realignment talk.
Without major conference football money there could be schools following the UConn path of giving up their expensive and money losing football dreams. Among them: Stanford, Kansas, Duke, Wake, Syracuse, BC. Then the Big East becomes relevant again in the conference realignment talk.Has UCONN stopped playing football? I know they went independent but hadn't heard they gave up on football. (honestly I don't follow UCONN football).
I would be extremely surprised if any of the above give up football.
I don't think any give up football. But I can see some programs having to change what they envision their football program to be. I think Stanford will find a home, but some programs like Wake Forest, Boston College, Kansas, or Syracuse that are poor at football, non-AAU members, small and private, or a combination of those factors may have to take a severe downgrade in their conference affiliation or follow the UConn route and go independent with football.
The number of seats at the big boy table is shrinking and there will definitely be some programs left standing up when the music stops.
My concern isn't that they don't go independent in football. My concern is that the ACC left-overs recruit UConn as a full member.
Hypothetically, if you have a conference of BC, Pitt, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Duke, etc. as the left overs, why wouldn't you look at potentially adding schools like UConn, Temple and a couple of American programs? That provides you with a decent all-sports league and wouldn't require you to do something else with your football program.
They might, and if they do, so be it. That's why the Big East put a huge poison pill in UConn's original entry. But what UConn already recognized was that being in an AAC style conference wasn't all that attractive, and when you have a monster Big 10, SEC, and mini-monster Big 12, the difference between the current AAC (before their best programs go B12) and a new reformed ACC will be cosmetic at best. They will be closer to a Mountain West than they will be any of those bigger three conferences.
Is that worth it? Maybe. But they will have to make the same decision UConn already made, which is picking the high-level basketball conference over the decent all-sports league with football. Are Duke, Syracuse, and BC football along with the AAC leftovers all that much more attractive than Houston, Cincinnati, and UCF, all of whom are better football programs than any of the ACC remnants will be and already programs UConn abandoned when they came here in the first place?
My concern isn't that they don't go independent in football. My concern is that the ACC left-overs recruit UConn as a full member.
Hypothetically, if you have a conference of BC, Pitt, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Duke, etc. as the left overs, why wouldn't you look at potentially adding schools like UConn, Temple and a couple of American programs? That provides you with a decent all-sports league and wouldn't require you to do something else with your football program.
I would think that Duke, Syracuse and BC football are most definitely NOT more attractive football programs than the AAC. But they are MUCH better all sports members than the AAC, and IMO probably better than the BE. Especially if you can park football there.
I don't see UConn leaving. That version of the ACC would be roughly equivalent to the AAC that they left when they joined the Big East. I think they've come to terms with the reality that their football program will never be relevant and will stick with maximizing their basketball program. I could see schools like Syracuse, Pitt, Wake, Boston College, etc doing the same thing. The dream is that Duke and Kansas follow that path.
I don't see UConn leaving. That version of the ACC would be roughly equivalent to the AAC that they left when they joined the Big East. I think they've come to terms with the reality that their football program will never be relevant and will stick with maximizing their basketball program. I could see schools like Syracuse, Pitt, Wake, Boston College, etc doing the same thing. The dream is that Duke and Kansas follow that path.
Never underestimate the desire to chase football glory, aka, the money, regardless of the cost to the university.
In a crazy turn of events, I can see UCONN football becoming an interesting piece. If the ACC elite gets picked off by the SEC & Big Ten, the Syracuse/Pitt/Wake/Va Tech contingency will need to add some warm bodies, and, well, UCONN is a warm body. Left for dead a few years ago, UCONN may be given CPR by it's very own killer.
I laughed off the talk on the Boneyard about UCONN leaving for the ACC, but now agree that it actually could happen. Kerching for the BE from the exit fee if it happens.This says $30 million
This is why I think UNC is key. They are, like ND and Texas, a huge national sports brand. If UNC departed the ACC then NC ST, Duke, Wake, Virginia, etc all are devalued and the athletics departments will feel the pain of carrying modern D1 football without full stadiums or big TV $. UConn could not afford to play in that game and many others will be similar.
I would think that Duke, Syracuse and BC football are most definitely NOT more attractive football programs than the AAC. But they are MUCH better all sports members than the AAC, and IMO probably better than the BE. Especially if you can park football there.
Yup, yup, yup. UNC is the next big brand outside of Notre Dame that knocks down a few more dominoes.
I am curious what those associated with UNC think. That’s a very tight-knit community from alum through administrators. They might be one of the schools outside Notre Dame that doesn’t chase the bag, at least immediately.
This says $30 million
https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-clb-uconn-big-east-contract-20190626-20190626-44voas7itffazjtcnrseuaspeu-story.html (https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-sp-clb-uconn-big-east-contract-20190626-20190626-44voas7itffazjtcnrseuaspeu-story.html)
The covered up rapes/assaults and fake classes weren't chasing the bag?
The only thing I read about ND and the SEC is that they may find playing in the south and Texas preferable from both an athletic and general student recruitment point of view. They like their affiliation with the ACC for that reason.
Yeah, I have a hard time seeing UConn spending $30 million to join the reanimated corpse of the ACC. I think that conference would end up getting a very similar contract to what the AAC currently has.
Not as hard if you drop the assumption that the Big East will retain its relevance when the music stops.
Like it or not, one of the potential outcomes of these musical chairs is that there is a hard split between football-playing schools and non-football schools, leaving the Big East outside looking in. Everyone here just seems to assume that the Big East is good enough that the football schools will be willing to bring them along for the ride.
Frankly, it's not even guaranteed that the ACC would be brought along for the ride, but from UConn's perspective, it's not hard to rationalize that a conference of 100% FBS schools will be included over a conference with 7 basketball only, 3 FCS, and 1 FBS school.
I have a hard time seeing them wanting to put the extra work into putting on the NCAA Tournament when someone is already doing it for them. But if they do, the power schools will still probably be capping out at 60-80 schools between the three surviving leagues. Even if they vacuum up 60% of the bids, that will still leave 25 bids to fill out. It is hard for me to envision them leaving out basketball only schools, unless they're trying to stage a 32-team tournament.I see them capping it at 32 like you say. Or something around there but in the end, it will be an incestuous tournament that does not invite anyone outside their power 2.5 sphere. Do they go that far and even leave nova and Gonzaga out because they would take a piece of their money pie? The Huggins and caliparis of the world hate Cinderellas and don't even want the door open for a non-p2.5 to win it all
I have a hard time seeing them wanting to put the extra work into putting on the NCAA Tournament when someone is already doing it for them. But if they do, the power schools will still probably be capping out at 60-80 schools between the three surviving leagues. Even if they vacuum up 60% of the bids, that will still leave 25 bids to fill out. It is hard for me to envision them leaving out basketball only schools, unless they're trying to stage a 32-team tournament.
Georgia and Florida are pretty good academic schools, but beyond that your point is hard to argue with. Interested to see if the B10 dangles an invite to Stanford to lure ND.
Yeah leaving the NCAA entirely paints them as the bad actors - a role that the NCAA occupies now. As long as the NCAA doesn't touch the football money, and gives them a large enough share of the basketball tournament money, the big conferences don't have much of a reason to leave the NCAA. It serves a useful purpose for them anyway. (Staging championships, eligibility, etc.)
Never underestimate the desire to chase football glory, aka, the money, regardless of the cost to the university.
Not as hard if you drop the assumption that the Big East will retain its relevance when the music stops.
Like it or not, one of the potential outcomes of these musical chairs is that there is a hard split between football-playing schools and non-football schools, leaving the Big East outside looking in. Everyone here just seems to assume that the Big East is good enough that the football schools will be willing to bring them along for the ride.
Frankly, it's not even guaranteed that the ACC would be brought along for the ride, but from UConn's perspective, it's not hard to rationalize that a conference of 100% FBS schools will be included over a conference with 7 basketball only, 3 FCS, and 1 FBS school.
Texas, A&M, Auburn, etc. The SEC isn't terrible in that regard.
A&M yes (always forget about them in the SEC...sorry TAMU). Florida has made massive strides in improving their academic reputation. But even still, they don't really hold academic cache.The Pac 12 had a good academic reputation due to Cal/Stanford/USC/UCLA. and maybe Washington. All of the others are on the same level of Auburn/Tennessee.
Auburn, is a no. The other SEC schools, also no.
The SEC does not have a good academic reputation, period. Same with the B12.
The B10, and P12 do/did. That is why it is easier for the B12 to potentially expand and survive. They don't have to swallow their pride to let in Arizona/Arizona St./Utah. The P12 would have to swallow their pride to let in most of the teams that are available.
By this argument, the Big East does not have an academic reputation either.
23. Georgetown
49. Villanova
63. Connecticut
83. Marquette
103. Creighton
127. DePaul
127. Seton Hall
172. St. John's
(PC, Butler, and Xavier are not national schools.)
The SEC in US News' rankings isn't that bad in comparison:
14. Vanderbilt
28. Florida
48. Georgia
68. Texas A&M
99. Auburn
103. Tennessee
117. South Carolina
122. Missouri
127. Kentucky
148. Mississippi
148. Alabama
162. Arkansas
172. LSU
196. Miss St.
Exactly.
Even really bad football money is much better than most basketball money.
exactly, especially if you are already getting football TV money. That's why anyone who actually thinks Kansas is "kicking the tires" of going independent and joining the Big East deserves to be laughed at.
By this argument, the Big East does not have an academic reputation either.
The Pac 12 had a good academic reputation due to Cal/Stanford/USC/UCLA. and maybe Washington. All of the others are on the same level of Auburn/Tennessee.
Exactly.
Even really bad football money is much better than most basketball money.
exactly, especially if you are already getting football TV money. That's why anyone who actually thinks Kansas is "kicking the tires" of going independent and joining the Big East deserves to be laughed at.
UCLA's football money was so good it ran a $100MM deficit the last three years and was going to axe multiple sports.
Exactly.Bring back MU football, COLE would grow exponentially.
Even really bad football money is much better than most basketball money.
By this argument, the Big East does not have an academic reputation either.
23. Georgetown
49. Villanova
63. Connecticut
83. Marquette
103. Creighton
127. DePaul
127. Seton Hall
172. St. John's
(PC, Butler, and Xavier are not national schools.)
The SEC in US News' rankings isn't that bad in comparison:
14. Vanderbilt
28. Florida
48. Georgia
68. Texas A&M
99. Auburn
103. Tennessee
117. South Carolina
122. Missouri
127. Kentucky
148. Mississippi
148. Alabama
162. Arkansas
172. LSU
196. Miss St.
Possible Pac-12 ACC merger?
https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/06/acc-pac-12-espn-tv-partnership-discussions
Why? What is a national school?
It doesn't sound like a merger. More like a deeper alliance between two conferences that have been mismanaged for awhile now. The Pac 12's issues have been well stated, but the ACC's television contract is terrible. They signed a 20 year deal with ESPN back in 2016 with no out for renegotiation, and it is likely that the B10 and SEC schools are going to make three times annually what ACC schools make.
This is a backdoor into getting that contract renegotiated.
Interesting. Jim Mora pitching UCONN football recruits with the goal of joining the ACC in the next 5 years:
https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/article/uconn-football-coach-jim-mora-recruits-17289940.php (https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/article/uconn-football-coach-jim-mora-recruits-17289940.php)
Interesting. Jim Mora pitching UCONN football recruits with the goal of joining the ACC in the next 5 years:
https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/article/uconn-football-coach-jim-mora-recruits-17289940.php (https://www.ctinsider.com/uconn/article/uconn-football-coach-jim-mora-recruits-17289940.php)
@BradenKeith: North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, and Clemson are all negotiating to join the SEC. ESPN is trying to void their TV deal with the ACC.
While this may be true, the fact that this was broke by SwimSwam.com, and not yet verified by any more well known source, is a bit of a red flag for me.
Virginia and UNC could be leaking to test the waters, so to speak
UConn joining the ACC in 5 years:(https://i.giphy.com/media/6uGhT1O4sxpi8/giphy.webp)
Where did everyone go?
I like it. They can pay the Big East their exit fee then return when the ACC folds.And pay an entrance fee again
"Hey B1G, we're going to jump over here if you don't invite us already"
The AAC makes less per school than the Big East does despite having football. I think that is the type of contract the likes of Syracuse, Pitt, Wake, Oregon State, etc. have to look forward to once their conferences are pillaged, maybe worse.
I think people are making the mistake of thinking that this will be like when the P5 left the Big East behind in football. They became a football mid-major but were still D1. I think this will be more akin to turning the SEC/B1G (and possibly the B12) into their own league and every one else into a separate lower league with the viewership of FCS football. And this time, I don't think there will be any future realignment to pin your hopes on.
If I recall correctly, you said similar about UConn years ago and I see them listed in the Big East standings at the left of the screen. And if you weren't the one, there were plenty who did. Any non-B1G/SEC athletic program worth their salt is currently researching all possible options, to not to would be negligent (and yes, I include Big East programs in that equation).
Luckily breaking up the NCAA will allow college basketball to renegotiate its horrible CBS deal
Unfortunately, I think in the years ahead the Big East has to grow or die. Add as many basketball centric programs as we can to remain competitive. How about: Duke, Wake, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Kansas, Gonzaga, Cal? 20 team conference, play everyone once. Best basketball in the country.
Be very careful what you wish for. If the NCAA breaks apart, the big schools will have no motivation or need to share basketball revenue with anyone.
From Paint Touches.
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1545125374945902594
Hey, that's what I've been alluding to.
No, probably not. Just a fantasy. Cal is probably more likely to declare all competitive sports to be fascist and ban them altogether.
Be very careful what you wish for. If the NCAA breaks apart, the big schools will have no motivation or need to share basketball revenue with anyone.
From Paint Touches.
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1545125374945902594
I did not. The bigger issue for UConn was whether they should drop football or drop down to FCS all things considered. Travel costs and lost
ticket revenue killed off any additional money they made from the AAC TV deal. They also stood to make more money from NCAA Tourney revenue (more teams making the Dance, fewer teams to split the revenue).
However, there is a big difference between the lack of money of the AAC TV deal and what a Big 12 program receives. After UConn left the AAC signed a "lucrative" TV deal getting each school $7 million per year (while UConn was running a $30 million deficit). Meanwhile, the Big 12 schools in 2021 were receiving $34.7 to $36.5 million each through their media rights deals. One estimate was that could fall to a minimum of $28 million with the addition of four new schools (thought BYU would bring more in), but that's still a significant amount.
The Big East's deal pays $4.6 million annually. While it will hopefully increase it will still dwarf the Big 12's deal.
Unfortunately, I think in the years ahead the Big East has to grow or die. Add as many basketball centric programs as we can to remain competitive. How about: Duke, Wake, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Kansas, Gonzaga, Cal? 20 team conference, play everyone once. Best basketball in the country.problem is outside of gonzaga none of these schools want to end up in the big east. i mean its like the if all else fails plan. does anyone really belive any of these acc or big 12 schools are likely to fall below big east relevancy?? doubt it
I did not. The bigger issue for UConn was whether they should drop football or drop down to FCS all things considered. Travel costs and lost
ticket revenue killed off any additional money they made from the AAC TV deal. They also stood to make more money from NCAA Tourney revenue (more teams making the Dance, fewer teams to split the revenue).
However, there is a big difference between the lack of money of the AAC TV deal and what a Big 12 program receives. After UConn left the AAC signed a "lucrative" TV deal getting each school $7 million per year (while UConn was running a $30 million deficit). Meanwhile, the Big 12 schools in 2021 were receiving $34.7 to $36.5 million each through their media rights deals. One estimate was that could fall to a minimum of $28 million with the addition of four new schools (thought BYU would bring more in), but that's still a significant amount.
The Big East's deal pays $4.6 million annually. While it will hopefully increase it will still dwarf the Big 12's deal.
All those schools, except one, play football though. They aren't giving that up to join the BE.
Not right now. But after the SEC, B1G, and possibly the B12 are raptured into their own private league? Maybe.
My belief is that there will be a group of P5 schools that combine into 2 or 3 super conferences and create their own football league separate from the NCAA. Once this happens, almost all of the TV dollars will shift to that new league and that league will be what people think of when they talk about college football. The remainders, the mid-major football programs and the P5 programs that don't make the cut will be as relevant as FCS football currently is and will have the TV contract to match. I think the chosen ones will keep all other sports, including basketball, in the NCAA. At this point is when I think the Big East will have the opportunity to get more UConn style arrangements with some significant basketball powers.
UConn football has a TV contract with CBS Sports Network for home games and the women's BB has a TV contract with SNY for untelevised Fox games.
You seem to be under the impression that I believe that Kansas would leave the B12 as it currently is to join the Big East. That would be ludicrous. What I have been saying is that Kansas is doing its due diligence (as all non-B1G/SEC schools are) on what all possible options are. Because a possible outcome in this whole realignment mess is that the B12 folds or becomes a glorified AAC with the TV contract to match. Personally, I think the B12 survives and Kansas will make the cut into the chosen few.
Not right now. But after the SEC, B1G, and possibly the B12 are raptured into their own private league? Maybe.
My belief is that there will be a group of P5 schools that combine into 2 or 3 super conferences and create their own football league separate from the NCAA. Once this happens, almost all of the TV dollars will shift to that new league and that league will be what people think of when they talk about college football. The remainders, the mid-major football programs and the P5 programs that don't make the cut will be as relevant as FCS football currently is and will have the TV contract to match. I think the chosen ones will keep all other sports, including basketball, in the NCAA. At this point is when I think the Big East will have the opportunity to get more UConn style arrangements with some significant basketball powers.
I devil's advocated Andrei on that one, but I disagree. Would they get the basketball revenue? Sure, but they would also have to administer the regular seasons and championships for 24 additional sports that currently the NCAA handles. If they do a full break, it would be just that, and suddenly it wouldn't be only basketball they had to address but rowing, water polo, cross country, and all the other sports that don't bring in revenue. I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze to do away with the NCAA.
And before someone suggests just folding those sports, they would have to maintain a number of them because of Title IX, which guarantees enough scholarships to at the minimum offset the 98 allotted to football and basketball. Could they significantly trim their athletic budgets by dropping a dozen or so sports? Sure, but that would create a pretty big backlash as they pocket record profits.
PT shared another graphic that just 36% of the NCAA Tourney dollars go to basketball. That means pouring the majority of those dollars into other sports. Sports that don't generate revenue. It isn't a good investment.
So you can see Syracuse, L'ville, and Pitt returning to the BE?
So you can see Syracuse, L'ville, and Pitt returning to the BE?
No, I don't. I'm just examining the economics of such a move and comparing them to UConn's decision while contemplating the death of college sports as we knew them.
So you can see Syracuse, L'ville, and Pitt returning to the BE?
I just don't see how the ACC is going to implode with the Grants of Rights issue hanging out there.
Money isn’t an issue in major college sportsMost would say that money IS the issue in major college sports.
Most would say that money IS the issue in major college sports.
Possible Pac-12 ACC merger?I don't care if this happens or not, but I'd give it about a 5% chance. If I'm the ACC or ESPN and why would they partner with the 10 maybe 6 or even 4 PAC12 schools? The ACC could easily end up with less money. I'm not so sure the public is excited about Wake Forest v. Oregon State or Syracuse v. Washington State.
https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/06/acc-pac-12-espn-tv-partnership-discussions
I don't care if this happens or not, but I'd give it about a 5% chance. If I'm the ACC or ESPN and why would they partner with the 10 maybe 6 or even 4 PAC12 schools? The ACC could easily end up with less money. I'm not so sure the public is excited about Wake Forest v. Oregon State or Syracuse v. Washington State.
Agreed. And I don't see ANY chance schools like Miami, NC, FSU, Oregon and Washington agreeing to a grant of rights. So why would ESPN pay good money for that product.
Exactly. They talked about some sort of championship game concept. Last year that would have been Pittsburgh v. Utah.
But even in "good" years where a highly ranked Florida State plays Oregon, is that going to draw eyeballs from the ACC or B10 championship games?
If the ACC does in fact implode, the reality, unbelievable as it may sound, is that some of those schools will be homeless. And the candidates are those that GENERALLY play bad football but good basketball. The SEC and the B10 have no interest in taking on additional bad football-----why would they.
I'm not predicting anything. But if the ACC implodes, a handful of those schools are going to be left out. And apparently in the brave New world of college football, if your football program is not "in", then you are "out"-----way out.And those orphans will then be confronted with the "Connecticut" decision.That MAY mean opportunity for the BE.
I would say a definite yes to Duke; a probable yes to Wake and BC and Louisville; and a a go F yourself to Pitt and Syracuse. Those 2 can go to the America East or MEAC.
If the ACC does break apart, and all these schools drop football, you aren't going to turn Pittsburgh and Syracuse down out of spite. All of the leaders who made those decisions over a decade ago are gone.
How many different conferences has MU been in?
2003 didn't start this. Conference realignment has been a near constant since the independents were all lapped up in the early 1990s and the B12 formed in 1994. The breakup of the Southwest Conference caused the WAC to explode in membership, and then eventually break apart with the creation of the Mountain West in the late 90s.
Anyway, this all started with the conferences taking the football television rights away from the NCAA, and the NCAA losing the eventual court case, in 1984.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_Oklahoma
This thread paints a pretty dismal picture of Rutgers athletics right now. If this is the normal at the higher P5s, it will be interesting to see what happens when politicians eventually get involved, especially in state legislatures that aren't fans of public education.Rutgers in a lot of debt.
Rutgers in a lot of debt.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/watchdog/2022/07/07/rutgers-athletics-spends-big-builds-debt-big-ten-conference/65367819007/
The bigger untold aspect of this story, is Rutgers is not alone. Nearly all D1 programs routinely cook the books to hide the athletics losses, and to hide the fact that they are funneling massive amounts of student tuition, and taxpayer dollars (for public schools) to athletics instead of education.
Some schools like Missouri force their faculty to take out their own trash from their offices, because they can't afford janitorial service for them, but will be doing what Rutgers is doing and spending millions a year on entertainment for coaches and players.
The bigger untold aspect of this story, is Rutgers is not alone. Nearly all D1 programs routinely cook the books to hide the athletics losses, and to hide the fact that they are funneling massive amounts of student tuition, and taxpayer dollars (for public schools) to athletics instead of education.
Some schools like Missouri force their faculty to take out their own trash from their offices, because they can't afford janitorial service for them, but will be doing what Rutgers is doing and spending millions a year on entertainment for coaches and players.
Texas Tech is announcing a $200 million football facilities upgrade. Huh
Thank goodness the universities themselves don't have to pay the athlete-students.
Thank goodness the universities themselves don't have to pay the athlete-students.I would guess they are indirectly. They are making less money off of players likeness as the money is now directly going to the players. I would also think there are cases of individuals/companies paying NIL money that will be reducing their donations to universities. I could be wrong, but I think universities are losing revenue because of NIL.
Wonder how people would waste their money if not for college athletics? $200 million to upgrade football facilities in Lubbock, Texas. Good lordWow. Quite a project.
I would guess they are indirectly. They are making less money off of players likeness as the money is now directly going to the players. I would also think there are cases of individuals/companies paying NIL money that will be reducing their donations to universities. I could be wrong, but I think universities are losing revenue because of NIL.
Wonder how people would waste their money if not for college athletics? $200 million to upgrade football facilities in Lubbock, Texas. Good lordNo COLE
Brother Dgies' Scenario on How Realignment will Play out:Love the Creativity here
1) The SEC welcomes Clemson, North Carolina, Florida State and Miami to the fold. Claims it solidifies the conference, creates more natural rivalries and strengthens the conference's reach throughout the Southland. Alabama goes 12-0 and defeats Georgia for the 2026 conference Championship, its fourth in a row. Nick Saban says he signed a new five-year agreement making him the Joe Biden of college football coaches.
2) The Big12 merges with the remnants of the Pac12, making a national super-conference extending from Orlando to Seattle. While the PAC12's largest markets are Orlando, Denver, Seattle and San Francisco, the amount of network programming is substantial enough that it becomes the third super-conference joining the SEC and BIG. By 2026, Colorado plays Washington for the Conference Championship. Washington is ranked Number 1 in the nation and uses Amazon's NIL money to poach four of Nick Saban's 2025 superstars. Oregon, now a Big 20 member, uses Nike money to poach Georgia five-star recruits, setting up a battle in 2027 between Oregon and Washington for what is expected to be an all BIG12 National Championship.
3) Not to be left-behind, Notre Dame and the BIG finally merge in 2026. Notre Dame immediately reduces its non-conference schedule to one game -- Navy. Notre Dame is joined by Virginia in the BIG. In 2027, with a BIG schedule that features USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, UCLA, Rutgers, Purdue and Maryland, Notre Dame goes 6-6 and the alumni call for leaving the BIG. Unfortunately, Notre Dame has given the BIG an assignment of rights until 2400, consistent with all other BIG schools.
4) Seeing money floating around like water and amateurism relegated to tiddly winks and online gaming competition, member institutions pull the plug on the NCAA in 2027. The BIGs and the SEC announced that in 2028, member institutions will compete for the FoxSports cup, awarded to the top college football team in the nation.
5) Left out in the cold, Duke, Virginia Tech, NC State, Wake Forest, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt merge with the Big East and renounce football forever in 2029. "We had a hell of a run," said ACC Commissioner Archibald Bunker, "but we're looking forward to joining the Big East for basketball and non-rev sports. We hope our associate membership in the Non_Football college world will allow us to be competitive again." In 2030, Duke University has its first winning basketball season since 2023-2024, as Marquette University wins its third consecutive League of All Big Schools National basketball Championship, defeating Kentucky 138-70. Coach Shaka Smart turns down an offer to become head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks.
Brother Dgies' Scenario on How Realignment will Play out:
1) The SEC welcomes Clemson, North Carolina, Florida State and Miami to the fold. Claims it solidifies the conference, creates more natural rivalries and strengthens the conference's reach throughout the Southland. Alabama goes 12-0 and defeats Georgia for the 2026 conference Championship, its fourth in a row. Nick Saban says he signed a new five-year agreement making him the Joe Biden of college football coaches.
2) The Big12 merges with the remnants of the Pac12, making a national super-conference extending from Orlando to Seattle. While the PAC12's largest markets are Orlando, Denver, Seattle and San Francisco, the amount of network programming is substantial enough that it becomes the third super-conference joining the SEC and BIG. By 2026, Colorado plays Washington for the Conference Championship. Washington is ranked Number 1 in the nation and uses Amazon's NIL money to poach four of Nick Saban's 2025 superstars. Oregon, now a Big 20 member, uses Nike money to poach Georgia five-star recruits, setting up a battle in 2027 between Oregon and Washington for what is expected to be an all BIG12 National Championship.
3) Not to be left-behind, Notre Dame and the BIG finally merge in 2026. Notre Dame immediately reduces its non-conference schedule to one game -- Navy. Notre Dame is joined by Virginia in the BIG. In 2027, with a BIG schedule that features USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, UCLA, Rutgers, Purdue and Maryland, Notre Dame goes 6-6 and the alumni call for leaving the BIG. Unfortunately, Notre Dame has given the BIG an assignment of rights until 2400, consistent with all other BIG schools.
4) Seeing money floating around like water and amateurism relegated to tiddly winks and online gaming competition, member institutions pull the plug on the NCAA in 2027. The BIGs and the SEC announced that in 2028, member institutions will compete for the FoxSports cup, awarded to the top college football team in the nation.
5) Left out in the cold, Duke, Virginia Tech, NC State, Wake Forest, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt merge with the Big East and renounce football forever in 2029. "We had a hell of a run," said ACC Commissioner Archibald Bunker, "but we're looking forward to joining the Big East for basketball and non-rev sports. We hope our associate membership in the Non_Football college world will allow us to be competitive again." In 2030, Duke University has its first winning basketball season since 2023-2024, as Marquette University wins its third consecutive League of All Big Schools National basketball Championship, defeating Kentucky 138-70. Coach Shaka Smart turns down an offer to become head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks.
3) Not to be left-behind, Notre Dame and the BIG finally merge in 2026. Notre Dame immediately reduces its non-conference schedule to one game -- Navy. Notre Dame is joined by Virginia in the BIG. In 2027, with a BIG schedule that features USC, Ohio State, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, UCLA, Rutgers, Purdue and Maryland, Notre Dame goes 6-6 and the alumni call for leaving the BIG. Unfortunately, Notre Dame has given the BIG, now called the NBCUniversal Conference an assignment of rights until 2400, consistent with all other BIG schools.
Actually, Shaka wanted the Bucks job, but Marquette wouldn't let him out of his contract.
Does Wojo finally attain his dream of being HC at Duke? Where is Buzz in all of this? It's important to honor the Scoop tradition of being totally obsessed with our past coaches.
Does Wojo finally attain his dream of being HC at Duke? Where is Buzz in all of this? It's important to honor the Scoop tradition of being totally obsessed with our past coaches.Crean sucks....
I think the biggest question is the ACC Grant of Rights. If ND goes B10, perhaps 8 of the 14 remaining ACC schools could vote to dissolve the league? Clemson, FSU, Miami, Louisville to the SEC. UNC, Virginia, Georgia Tech, Duke to the ACC. For the SEC, they would generally consolidate the south, add rivals for South Carolina, Florida, & Kentucky, and add football brands. For the Big 10, they add four AAU members, expand their footprint south & east, & keeping the UNC/Duke rivalry would make both coming more likely.A lot makes sense to me. I don't like it but nobody is asking me. One of the things I like about sports is the underdog and knowing schools or pro teams have a chance to compete. Funny how if this came to pass years ago schools Army would be a player in all of this and Miami, who I believe came very close to dropping football in the 70's, would not be on any ones radar. Maybe Temple could become Miami or the Gonzaga of football years ago, but all the door are being shut permanently now. Just my opinion but I don't like it.
I would guess the B10 also then adds Stanford, Oregon, & Washington to get to 24 & then both the ACC and Pac-12 are killed. Arizona, ASU, Colorado, & Utah to the Big 12 as previously rumored, leaving a 24-team B10, 20-team SEC, & 16-team Big 12.
That would leave Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Va Tech, NC State, Wake, Wazzu, and Cal out in the cold. The question for them is if they pursue football in a mediocre American/Mountain West style league where brand reach and licensing rights will be limited, or follow the UConn model, farm out your football as a high priced buy game for the big boys, and look to more lucrative basketball contracts.
For those that flirted with recent football success, like Pittsburgh or Wake, it could be a tough decision. For those who perennially suck at football and could get $7-10M in basketball rights and farm out their football program for high major buys at $1-2M per game it might be worth moving to the Big East.
Also, if the P5 contracts and tries to break off their own basketball tournament, Greg Sankey tipped their hand. They would look to cut out the one bid leagues. So FBS leagues like CUSA, the MAC, and the Sun Belt (along with all the non-FBS low majors) would be left out rather than legit basketball powers like us.
5) Conference realignment has resulted in several programs repositioning themselves in basketball. After years of not mattering, basketball at the University of Washington suddenly matters. With Amazon and Microsoft NIL money, Washington suddenly attracts a team of eight five-star recruits. Head Coach Buzz Williams said, "haaaaillll, they deserve every dime they can get."…Douglas Cty got it all!!, agreed, Brother Dgies?
6) In 2026, after several years of living off severance from Marquette University, former Duke Blue Devil and MU Coach Wojo was announced as the new head basketball coach at the University of Wisconsin-Superior. "I just love the idea of living in such a gracious place as Superior," said Wojo.
…Douglas Cty got it all!!, agreed, Brother Dgies?
That would leave Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Va Tech, NC State, Wake, Wazzu, and Cal out in the cold.
Also, if the P5 contracts and tries to break off their own basketball tournament, Greg Sankey tipped their hand. They would look to cut out the one bid leagues. So FBS leagues like CUSA, the MAC, and the Sun Belt (along with all the non-FBS low majors) would be left out rather than legit basketball powers like us.
I think the biggest question is the ACC Grant of Rights. If ND goes B10, perhaps 8 of the 14 remaining ACC schools could vote to dissolve the league? Clemson, FSU, Miami, Louisville to the SEC. UNC, Virginia, Georgia Tech, Duke to the ACC.I think NC State to the SEC and Louisville getting left out is more likely. In my experience living in NC, NC State has a bigger fan base than UNC in the state.
That would leave Syracuse, BC, Pitt, Va Tech, NC State, Wake, Wazzu, and Cal out in the cold. The question for them is if they pursue football in a mediocre American/Mountain West style league where brand reach and licensing rights will be limited, or follow the UConn model, farm out your football as a high priced buy game for the big boys, and look to more lucrative basketball contracts.
Also, if the P5 contracts and tries to break off their own basketball tournament, Greg Sankey tipped their hand. They would look to cut out the one bid leagues. So FBS leagues like CUSA, the MAC, and the Sun Belt (along with all the non-FBS low majors) would be left out rather than legit basketball powers like us.
I think NC State to the SEC and Louisville getting left out is more likely. In my experience living in NC, NC State has a bigger fan base than UNC in the state.
In my experience living in NC, NC State has a bigger fan base than UNC in the state.
I'd agree with most of this but I seem to remember the VA legislature (through UVA) was involved in forcing the ACC to take VAtech if they wanted to expand. They may make VA and VATech a package deal
I'd agree with most of this but I seem to remember the VA legislature (through UVA) was involved in forcing the ACC to take VAtech if they wanted to expand. They may make VA and VATech a package deal
Most of what I'm reading is that the B1G and SEC are done expanding for now. B12 might still try to poach from the P12. Guess we can put off the death of college sports for at least a few more years.
Maybe. But I read (I never verified) that Oklahoma had a state law that said that Oklahoma and Oklahoma State had to be in the same athletic conference and one couldn't leave without the other. I don't think the Pokes are getting into the SEC anytime soon.
Duke: Yeah, their basketball team was a blue blood, but do you want to bet on the future with Coach K gone?
Syracuse: The last time Syracuse football was competitive, Ernie Davis was their running back and I was 3.
Most of what I'm reading is that the B1G and SEC are done expanding for now. B12 might still try to poach from the P12. Guess we can put off the death of college sports for at least a few more years.
hate to say I told you so, but.... Outside of football, this has been a long term goal of the Power conferences and they have been discussing this with CBS for a while:
Stadium/Field of 68's Goodman says at a recent DI Council meeting SEC Commissioner Sankey hinted at the potential of a hoops NCAA Tournament that may not include automatic qualifiers from some conferences. Goodman: "Sankey made it look like the NCAA Tournament may not look like the NCAA Tournament in a couple years. Meaning, that the little guys might not be involved anymore. All I’m saying is don’t be surprised if there’s a push … to not include the usual." Goodman adds that he talked to others involved in the meeting who disagreed with the assessment that Sankey was suggesting major change could be coming to tourney access. More. (link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83_idrdR6e8
From stories I've read my guess is not much might happen unless/until ND decides to make a jump.I don't think ND makes a move until they have to. They're in a unique position where they can be patient and wait to see how things shake out vs the others that are rats on a sinking ship.
While it is fun to think that anyone in the NCAA basketball tournament can "win it all," the fact remains that once the games start, reality sets in. Sure, Loyola will make a deep run once in awhile, and a Miami of Ohio will, once in the school's history defeat a defending national champion. But by and large, Cindarella may be at the ball but she's an unnoticed wallflower.
I actually would rather see a tournament where more Power 5+ conference members compete. Cut it off long before UMBC shows up on a 16 line. It aint going to happen again. I'd rather see a marginal Marquette team get hot, like we did last January in regular season, and take down college basketball's sequoias, that a 60 point win by a one-or-two seed in what amounts to a warm-up bye game.
Of course, we've had our a*sses handed to us the last few years too!
If they do this, I would like them to cut the number of auto-bids rather than eliminate them. The beauty of the NCAA Tournament is that every eligible team has a path to the National Championship when the season starts. Sure, it's incredibly unlikely, but we have seen teams like Loyola and St. Peter's get closer than anyone would ever expect, and even that 5-seed Butler that was a lucky bounce away from taking the title from Duke shows that having those teams is still worthwhile.
I would propose the following if this was the route we had to go:
- Go back to a 64-team field.
- The 8 highest ranked NET conferences from the previous year have their conference tournaments during Championship Week and each get to send one automatic qualifier.
- The bottom 24 NET leagues from the previous year play their conference tournaments the week before Championship Week (like many already do), then those 24 champions are seeded into four six-team brackets. Those six-team tournaments are played during Championship Week on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday (top two NET ranked teams get byes). The 4 winners get auto-bids as 16-seeds.
- That gives you 12 auto-bids. The other 52 bids go to at-large teams. They can be from any league, giving smaller leagues a theoretical chance to get a second bid from time to time, but generally the big boys get them.
- By having the four Tournaments of Champions during Championship Week, every team retains a theoretical opportunity to win the National Championship.
- If they want to retain play-in games, expand the field from 64 to 72 and create two sites, Dayton and Omaha. Each site has two play-in games on Tuesday and Wednesday to determine the final 8 participants. Ratings would be higher as these would all be at-large caliber teams.
Would be fun for the fans, but bad for business and is therefore very pie in the sky.
I think one of my main concerns is the lack of visibility guys like Ja Morant, Steph Curry, etc. would get under a new tournament that didn't include mid majors.
Basically, if you want to get drafted, then you'd better go to a school which is eligible for the new format tournament. Would consolidate talent even more than we already see.
I think A10 would end up making the cut so Curry would have still been in. Hard to see Murray State making the cut.Davidson was in the Southern Conference when Curry was there.
Would be fun for the fans, but bad for business and is therefore very pie in the sky.
So what does the Big East look like in 10 years? Here's my best guess today.
Legacy Members
Marquette
Georgetown
Butler
Depaul
Creighton
UConn
Villanova
St. John's
Xavier
Providence
Seton Hall
"Legacy" is defined as 2022 members of the Big East. None of these teams are going anywhere. DePaul may get the riot act read to them but they're staying.
Probability Greater than 50 Percent by 2032
Gonzaga -- Will wake up to the fact that to win a natty, you have to play a real live Natty schedule. Needs the Big East for that.
Duke -- See earlier comment. Football is crap and has very little legacy to it.
Wake Forest -- Duke only with less appeal to anyone else.
Syracuse -- See earlier comment. If they haven't yet sent Val flowers, they will SOON!
This would bring us to a 15 team league, restore Syracuse to the Eastern rivalries and add the plum of the break-up, Duke. All three will follow the UConn model for football. This would be a very, very competitive basketball conference and would be a killer for recruiting. Whoever comes out of this will be a Natty favorite.
Well, yeah, but....
Louisville -- Would be nice to get these birds back, but I'd expect the Big 12 to take them immediately. Restores rivalries with Cincinnati and West Virginia. Major commitment to football.
Pittsburgh -- Ditto Louisville. Bigger dreams than reality.
NC State -- Ditto All of the above.
Vanderbilt -- They'll come when they get drummed out of the SEC for having a crappy football program. Big problem is baseball. Vandy is REALLY good in baseball and I don't see the Big East playing competitive baseball at Vandy's level.
The Kansases -- Not gonna happen either.
Duke more likely than Kansas is hilariousWhy?
Davidson was in the Southern Conference when Curry was there.
Duke more likely than Kansas is hilarious
It would be far better for business and far more lucrative. High major vs high major games are typically the highest rated games. The high major play in games destroy the 16-seeds play in games on the same night. Paint Touches did a dive into NCAA ratings and P5 v P5 is significantly better for ratings than even prominent non-P5s like Big East or Gonzaga. Something like this is probably the only chance the low majors have of inclusion beyond 2032.
Brother 61:
I don't agree with you because the Big12/10/?? has options. It can merge with the remnants of the Pac 8, sans the Beavs and Cougs, and become a powerhouse conference. In that vein, Kansas would have to be kicked out, a la Vanderbilt. I just don't see that happening.
Plus, if Oregon, Washington, Cal and Stanford along with the Buffs stay in the merged conference, there's money and markets available.
Duke, on the other hand, may be left with its proverbial pants down. I can see the SEC taking Clemson, UNC, Miami and the Seminoles. It makes sense on so many levels. I can't see them taking Duke and Wake Forest and its doubtful such schools as Boston College, Virginia Tech, North Carolina State, Syracuse, Pitt, etc, will end up in the SEC. Some might go Big12/10/?? but I can't see Duke doing that. Their football isn't THAT good to warrant Power 5/4/3 inclusion and I don't know any conference this side of the MAC that would want them in Football.
There's no tradition there. They are even worse than Vanderbilt because they suck in a conference where they shouldn't. In short, Vanderbilt plays tougher competition. And, they've never lucked into a conference championship the way Northwestern has.
Unlike Syracuse, who needs to be sending Val flowers and chocolate by the carload, Val needs to put on her party dress, pack a couple of lightweight suits (preferrably with a blue and white scarf) and go spend some time at the Durham, NC country club with Duke. Hint: Val might want to talk about Theo and how he inspired her!
If they SEC grabs those teams, I could see them taking VA (if they don't end up in the B1G) or VaTech as a consolation. Otherwise, the other schools make sense and foster new local rivalries.
If they do this, I would like them to cut the number of auto-bids rather than eliminate them. The beauty of the NCAA Tournament is that every eligible team has a path to the National Championship when the season starts. Sure, it's incredibly unlikely, but we have seen teams like Loyola and St. Peter's get closer than anyone would ever expect, and even that 5-seed Butler that was a lucky bounce away from taking the title from Duke shows that having those teams is still worthwhile.I think it is more likely the tournament expands. Top 12 seeds get a bye. 32 teams play first round play in game. This will allow more bids for power 5 conferences and most of non-major conferences will be out in first round.
I would propose the following if this was the route we had to go:
- Go back to a 64-team field.
- The 8 highest ranked NET conferences from the previous year have their conference tournaments during Championship Week and each get to send one automatic qualifier.
- The bottom 24 NET leagues from the previous year play their conference tournaments the week before Championship Week (like many already do), then those 24 champions are seeded into four six-team brackets. Those six-team tournaments are played during Championship Week on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday (top two NET ranked teams get byes). The 4 winners get auto-bids as 16-seeds.
- That gives you 12 auto-bids. The other 52 bids go to at-large teams. They can be from any league, giving smaller leagues a theoretical chance to get a second bid from time to time, but generally the big boys get them.
- By having the four Tournaments of Champions during Championship Week, every team retains a theoretical opportunity to win the National Championship.
- If they want to retain play-in games, expand the field from 64 to 72 and create two sites, Dayton and Omaha. Each site has two play-in games on Tuesday and Wednesday to determine the final 8 participants. Ratings would be higher as these would all be at-large caliber teams.
SMU had discussions to join ACC…
https://www.si.com/college/fsu/football/report-acc-has-had-conversations-in-regards-to-adding-new-team-to-conference
NCAA Basketball locked up till 2032. Networks love it the way it is. Emmert made a bad deal by extending.
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2016/04/cbs-turner-ncaa-march-madness-eight-year-extension-final-four-cable-2032/#:~:text=CBS%20and%20Turner%20Sports%20have,set%20to%20expire%20in%202024.
https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/cbs-turner-partnership-ncaa-tournament-huge-benefits-76504960
https://www.yahoo.com/video/ncaa-president-mark-emmerts-35-billion-mistake-will-define-his-failed-tenure-232648011.html
What no BCI sometimes forget BC is D1 in sports.
I sometimes forget BC is D1 in sports.
You're assuming the NCAA includes the P5-6 in this scenario.NCAA doesn’t have a right to change a pre existing deal .
NCAA doesn’t have a right to change a pre existing deal .
NCAA doesn’t have a right to change a pre existing deal .
For many reasons I've listed before, I don't see it, because it's not just taking on the March Madness but all the other sports the NCAA currently administers that go with it. I do think we will see gradual pressure toward altering the current format as we get closer to 2032, and expect the tournament will look radically different once the next contract is negotiated.
If they break off, it will be for football purposes, and it will end up with a football playoff that only includes probably 2-3 leagues (at most 5). I just don't see them staging a basketball tournament out of those leagues exclusively because no one wants to watch the dregs of even those leagues in March. They certainly won't include other (current) FBS schools in such an endeavor after cutting them out of the football revenues.
I think it's far more likely they force the NCAA to gradually reduce the number of auto-bids. Whether it's shrinking the size of D1, a consolidated low-major Tournament of Champions system like I suggested above, or the (most likely) at-large only, I do think they'll include the other NCAA leagues simply for inventory. You'll have a better product with better ratings and more revenue if you retain the Big East and other prominent non-P5 programs, while at the same time knowing that the bulk of the bids will go to those P5 (or 2, or 3, or whatever) schools.
What if they want to 'pay for play' with the players? What if they want enrollment at the school to be optional for the players? What if they want to collectively barging with a player's union? How would any of that fit within the framework of the NCAA and 90%+ of the member schools?
Two thoughts...
First, the P5 schools have no reason to break off from the NCAA for football. The NCAA is still a useful organization in terms of services for eligibility, recruiting, etc., and provides those services at no extra cost. Furthermore it can be a nice scapegoat when those schools need to blame something on someone.
What if they want to 'pay for play' with the players? What if they want enrollment at the school to be optional for the players? What if they want to collectively barging with a player's union? How would any of that fit within the framework of the NCAA and 90%+ of the member schools?The P5 is not a concept developed by sportswriters , it is a legally defined concept within the NCAA. The Autonomy conferences as defined by the NCAA ( Big 10, Big 12 , SEC, ACC and PAC-12)have the right to set their own rules and regulations.
The P5 is not a concept developed by sportswriters , it is a legally defined concept within the NCAA. The Autonomy conferences as defined by the NCAA ( Big 10, Big 12 , SEC, ACC and PAC-12)have the right to set their own rules and regulations.
What if they want to 'pay for play' with the players? What if they want enrollment at the school to be optional for the players? What if they want to collectively barging with a player's union? How would any of that fit within the framework of the NCAA and 90%+ of the member schools?
https://www.yahoo.com/video/ncaa-president-mark-emmerts-35-billion-mistake-will-define-his-failed-tenure-232648011.html
"One expert predicted it could have gotten $1.5 billion from 2025-29, done a short deal and shot for $2.25 billion annually in 2030."
They definitely don't want 1 and 3. I don't think they want 2 either. If they do, they will have the power to make it happen within the NCAA frameworkWell if they get/forced to have 1. pay for play, they may want 3. collective bargaining. That could help the sports with a salary cap.
Two thoughts...
First, the P5 schools have no reason to break off from the NCAA for football. The NCAA is still a useful organization in terms of services for eligibility, recruiting, etc., and provides those services at no extra cost. Furthermore it can be a nice scapegoat when those schools need to blame something on someone.
Second, I agree with you completely on the NCAA tournament. I can see more Tuesday and Wednesday play in games as a next step.
Interesting. I always thought it was branding, nothing more, and found it amusing when the AAC tried to sell the idea of "P6".
There is nothing the B1G and SEC (and Big 12, ACC and PAC) cannot already do that the NCAA is currently "tasked" with doing. Administration? The leagues have large offices that can already administer each of their sports (and only be responsible for 16 teams rather than 300+). Enforcement? The NCAA has already thrown in the towel here. Again a league enforcing rules for 16 schools (and each of their programs) is much easier to do than 300+ schools and all those programs. Running conference/postseason tournaments? Again, the schools already do this themselves (and give a big hunk to the NCAA).For the record, the NCAA has 1,100 schools. I understand the drive by media acts like they only have the D1 schools but they facilitate athletic opportunities for 10,000+ students.
The NCAA was officially deemed absolute as soon as Alston was determined by the Supreme Court. It's starting with football, and will inevitably trickle down to Olympic sports.
There is nothing the B1G and SEC (and Big 12, ACC and PAC) cannot already do that the NCAA is currently "tasked" with doing. Administration? The leagues have large offices that can already administer each of their sports (and only be responsible for 16 teams rather than 300+). Enforcement? The NCAA has already thrown in the towel here. Again a league enforcing rules for 16 schools (and each of their programs) is much easier to do than 300+ schools and all those programs. Running conference/postseason tournaments? Again, the schools already do this themselves (and give a big hunk to the NCAA).
The NCAA was officially deemed absolute as soon as Alston was determined by the Supreme Court. It's starting with football, and will inevitably trickle down to Olympic sports.
#AmericanPow6r
One of the most hilariously awful marketing campaigns in college sports history. When you have to continually reinforce and assure to the public that you're a member of a highly selective country club, guess what? You're not actually a member of the selective country club.
The Big East never once pumped its chest, whined in the corner or put stickers on its courts saying how we belonged with the big boys. Our success on the court spoke for itself, as did our relationships with P5 conferences.
Had the AAC NOT done this campaign (and UCF not declared itself a national champion), I truly think the perception and optics of the league would have been better. But that's my opinion.
#AmericanPow6r
One of the most hilariously awful marketing campaigns in college sports history. When you have to continually reinforce and assure to the public that you're a member of a highly selective country club, guess what? You're not actually a member of the selective country club.
The Big East never once pumped its chest, whined in the corner or put stickers on its courts saying how we belonged with the big boys. Our success on the court spoke for itself, as did our relationships with P5 conferences.
Had the AAC NOT done this campaign (and UCF not declared itself a national champion), I truly think the perception and optics of the league would have been better. But that's my opinion.
I wonder at what point congress would step in. The power 5 schools breaking off could result in a lot of non-included schools cutting down their sports programs. This is of course would result in less opportunities for women and minorities. Congress could also look at the tax-exempt status of power 5 programs. They could declare their sports programs to be unrelated businesses and thus make them subject to income tax. Of course, if they are losing money, they still would not be paying any tax. I think there is a risk for the power 5 programs going too far along the path they may be going on.
I also think TV rights might become less valuable. Cutting out the non-power 5 schools, could result in a big decrease in people watching college basketball games. As a Marquette fan I am not sure I would watch much college basketball, if Marquette was left out. I might not even watch the new NCAA tournament, if it was limited to only power 5 schools.
I wonder at what point congress would step in. The power 5 schools breaking off could result in a lot of non-included schools cutting down their sports programs.
I wonder at what point congress would step in. The power 5 schools breaking off could result in a lot of non-included schools cutting down their sports programs. This is of course would result in less opportunities for women and minorities. Congress could also look at the tax-exempt status of power 5 programs. They could declare their sports programs to be unrelated businesses and thus make them subject to income tax. Of course, if they are losing money, they still would not be paying any tax. I think there is a risk for the power 5 programs going too far along the path they may be going on.
I also think TV rights might become less valuable. Cutting out the non-power 5 schools, could result in a big decrease in people watching college basketball games. As a Marquette fan I am not sure I would watch much college basketball, if Marquette was left out. I might not even watch the new NCAA tournament, if it was limited to only power 5 schools.
I wonder at what point congress would step in. The power 5 schools breaking off could result in a lot of non-included schools cutting down their sports programs. This is of course would result in less opportunities for women and minorities. Congress could also look at the tax-exempt status of power 5 programs. They could declare their sports programs to be unrelated businesses and thus make them subject to income tax. Of course, if they are losing money, they still would not be paying any tax. I think there is a risk for the power 5 programs going too far along the path they may be going on.
I also think TV rights might become less valuable. Cutting out the non-power 5 schools, could result in a big decrease in people watching college basketball games. As a Marquette fan I am not sure I would watch much college basketball, if Marquette was left out. I might not even watch the new NCAA tournament, if it was limited to only power 5 schools.
I've been wondering about it more at the state level. When UW-Madison's conference breaks away and savages the sports programs at Milwaukee, Green Bay, Whitewater, and others in the process, that seems like something they'd want to have a say in.
It is not the P5's (or top grouping's) responsibility to ensure financial health of all other programs within D1. Not in football. Not in any sport. The fact that so many fans openly declare they won't watch anymore if their team cannot play the top teams just affirm that point, and highlight the reason why the top brands seek to play more against, and exclusively, against each other.
So you think that the conference offices can just pick up things like running a track and field national championship at no extra cost? Very doubtful. Those are the things that the NCAA does well and with some efficiency.
I'll repeat it: there is nothing the NCAA is currently doing that the autonomous conferences cannot either do themselves, or work with the Olympic governing body of the said sport, to successfully administer it. The NCAA takes huge cuts of every championship sport. This will be another revenue source that the autonomous conferences will inevitably keep for themselves.
It's all about survival. Texas didn't get in the way of the Longhorns leaving behind Tech, Baylor and TCU. Oklahoma didn't care it is leaving behind OK State. California won't stop UCLA and USC from going to the Big Ten. These moves are within the P5; do you think any politician can realistically prevent the State's top athletic brand (and ability to make more money) in favor of small, money-losing, athletic programs? Not a chance.
I've been wondering about it more at the state level. When UW-Madison's conference breaks away and savages the sports programs at Milwaukee, Green Bay, Whitewater, and others in the process, that seems like something they'd want to have a say in.
Can? Absolutely. Want to? Doubt it.
Never underestimate a powerful university's desire to maintain the status quo.
It is not the P5's (or top grouping's) responsibility to ensure financial health of all other programs within D1. Not in football. Not in any sport. The fact that so many fans openly declare they won't watch anymore if their team cannot play the top teams just affirm that point, and highlight the reason why the top brands seek to play more against, and exclusively, against each other.
The bolded part is nonsense. If Alabama was told they could no longer compete at the top tier, the majority of their fans would lose interest. Their are a lot of reasons why the top tier teams might break away from the others, but the fact that those fan bases would lose interest if they weren’t in the top tier is not one of them. Every fan base in college football and basketball would weaken considerably if you took away their team’s opportunity to compete against the best.
It won’t happen. Madison largely gets free reign within the UW System and state because of their resources.
I genuinely hope with all of my heart that congress will concern themselves with more important issues.I do too but that would be the first time for that to happen. Both Democrats and Republicans have brought more ridiculous issues before congress.
Yes. NIL has already shown us state legislatures can and will take action. People constantly forget we aren't talking about private corporations, we're talking about public schools. And state legislatures have ZERO PROBLEM stepping in when it comes to public schools. Just because they have limited how much they do so to this point doesn't mean they can't or won't.
The bolded part is nonsense. If Alabama was told they could no longer compete at the top tier, the majority of their fans would lose interest. Their are a lot of reasons why the top tier teams might break away from the others, but the fact that those fan bases would lose interest if they weren’t in the top tier is not one of them. Every fan base in college football and basketball would weaken considerably if you took away their team’s opportunity to compete against the best.I think Golden's point, and I could be wrong, was that schools like OSU, Alabama and Texas don't care if a school or the majority of schools stop competing in sports. It is not their concern if MU or Oregon State or Villanova or Wake Forest fold. They are singularly interested in their own program. There is no one in charge of looking out for the best interest of the sports as a whole.
The bolded part is nonsense. If Alabama was told they could no longer compete at the top tier, the majority of their fans would lose interest. Their are a lot of reasons why the top tier teams might break away from the others, but the fact that those fan bases would lose interest if they weren’t in the top tier is not one of them. Every fan base in college football and basketball would weaken considerably if you took away their team’s opportunity to compete against the best.
I think Golden's point, and I could be wrong, was that schools like OSU, Alabama and Texas don't care if a school or the majority of schools stop competing in sports. It is not their concern if MU or Oregon State or Villanova or Wake Forest fold. They are singularly interested in their own program. There is no one in charge of looking out for the best interest of the sports as a whole.
Pro spots have figured this out with great success. Salary caps and revenue sharing level the playing field allowing teams like the Rays, Packers and Thunder to compete, heck, even exist. This is good for the overall product. If pro sports teams worked like college sports New York, Chicago and LA would dominate with advantages almost no different than giving the Giants 5 downs, the Cubs 4 outs or the Lakers 3 points for every basket.
Alabama isn't going to be locked out because they are one of the top brands and storied programs, so that example is irrelevant. The top fan bases, and programs that are generating the most revenues, aren't the ones that are going to be moved down.
Once again, it's all about consolidating revenues. When the CFP was created, viewership dramatically increased (and this was a model that killed a football playing conference, regulating multiple programs down via loss guaranteed access of a BCS slot). Even the BCS model dramatically increased viewership and revenues, and that was after the power brokers and networks killed off the SWC, leaving Rice, TCU, Houston and SMU behind.
Consolidation and regulation has been occurring for years, it's just that fans don't like to recognize or admit it.
I'm not so sure. When athletic directors and presidents start calling their alumni and local reps that are elected state officials, it can resonate. Less so in Wisconsin where you don't have as many D1s, but I can easily see it starting in an Illinois or California then spreading to other states as lower D1s, D2s, and D3s are threatened.
Contrary to what many (including in athletic departments) believe, these are not corporations that can put profit above all else.
There is a huge difference between college football and college basketball. The mergers are being created by football. The mergers are good for football, but in my opinion are bad for the college basketball we love.I had the same question about the tax exempt status but was told on this board that the schools do in fact pay income tax on sports income.
It is starting to look like to me that college sports are becoming big business. They should no longer be included in the tax exemption that universities are given. This decision can only be made by congress. It is after all federal tax law.
I had the same question about the tax exempt status but was told on this board that the schools do in fact pay income tax on sports income.
I think Golden's point, and I could be wrong, was that schools like OSU, Alabama and Texas don't care if a school or the majority of schools stop competing in sports. It is not their concern if MU or Oregon State or Villanova or Wake Forest fold. They are singularly interested in their own program. There is no one in charge of looking out for the best interest of the sports as a whole.
Pro spots have figured this out with great success. Salary caps and revenue sharing level the playing field allowing teams like the Rays, Packers and Thunder to compete, heck, even exist. This is good for the overall product. If pro sports teams worked like college sports New York, Chicago and LA would dominate with advantages almost no different than giving the Giants 5 downs, the Cubs 4 outs or the Lakers 3 points for every basket.
College athletics is not subject to unrelated business income tax.Well I'd guess that will be changing soon. Rightfully so. As a tax payer of this country I can't think of one good reason they should be tax exempt. The athletes are no longer amateurs. Why should we subsidies Texas, Alabama and USC? So they can have a new video room and an extra beer stand in their stadiums?
Should it be? Who knows. But that’s not stopping what is happening now.
Can? Absolutely. Want to? Doubt it.
Never underestimate a powerful university's desire to maintain the status quo.
Will? Most likely.
A handful of teams stands to increase their revenue by probably a billion dollars a year if they invest no more than $50 million/year on an organization that can take over what the NCAA does today.
And then they would be able to distribute the total pot across maybe 100 schools, instead of the 1100 the NCAA does today.
At some point, the powerful university's desire to increase power and revenue will surpass their desire to maintain the status quo.
I'm not so sure. When athletic directors and presidents start calling their alumni and local reps that are elected state officials, it can resonate. Less so in Wisconsin where you don't have as many D1s, but I can easily see it starting in an Illinois or California then spreading to other states as lower D1s, D2s, and D3s are threatened.
Contrary to what many (including in athletic departments) believe, these are not corporations that can put profit above all else.
What's the argument they're going to make? That the University of Illinois can't be allowed make decisions in its own best interest? Its unfair they no longer want to compete with us, but want to compete only against a smaller number of equally powerful teams?
I don't see a successful argument that the U of I should be held back by state law because fans of Chicago State or SIU-Edwardsville or Eastern Illinois are miffed that they are no longer considered competors at the same level.
And it's a lot easier to understand the counterargument from Illinois being "well, fans of NIU, Governors State, Illinois State, etc, all you need to do is build an athletic program that brings as much to the table as we do, and I'm sure you'll be invited to participate as well. But until then, it sounds like you're just trying to ride our gravy train.
What's the argument they're going to make? That the University of Illinois can't be allowed make decisions in its own best interest? Its unfair they no longer want to compete with us, but want to compete only against a smaller number of equally powerful teams?Large public universities have been built on and continue to "ride the gravy train" of tax payers. What would the economic fortunes underwriting the massive investment into sports look like if the Big Ten (x- N'western) universities had to simply purchase the land they sit on? (This is say nothing of annual tax revenues they receive.) I dare say we would not see a new sports facility for decades.
I don't see a successful argument that the U of I should be held back by state law because fans of Chicago State or SIU-Edwardsville or Eastern Illinois are miffed that they are no longer considered competors at the same level.
And it's a lot easier to understand the counterargument from Illinois being "well, fans of NIU, Governors State, Illinois State, etc, all you need to do is build an athletic program that brings as much to the table as we do, and I'm sure you'll be invited to participate as well. But until then, it sounds like you're just trying to ride our gravy train.
I don't think we agree on how it will look, but we seem to agree that a group of 100-150 schools will break off from the rest of D1. I just think they will break off entirely in football, and create a new division of the NCAA in all other sports.
What's the argument they're going to make? That the University of Illinois can't be allowed make decisions in its own best interest?
No. That the University of Illinois-Champaign-Urbana isn't a private corporation and must act in the best interest of the University of Illinois SYSTEM as a whole.
They “must act in best interest of the System as a whole?” How does one campus know what’s in the best interests of the entire system? Is an action that disproportionately benefits one campus necessarily against the best interests of the system?You have a point, you're talking about Illinois government. I don't know if anyone at the State of Illinois knows what's in the best interest of anything in that state.
I don't think we agree on how it will look, but we seem to agree that a group of 100-150 schools will break off from the rest of D1. I just think they will break off entirely in football, and create a new division of the NCAA in all other sports.If the power 5 breaks off, it will be less than 75 schools.
Well, they are going to have to break off completely from the NCAA in basketball as well, because if they don't, total revenue will be limited by the current NCAA basketball tournament contract.
Those breakaway schools alone could conceivably land a TV deal that could double what the NCAA contract is worth between now and 2032. Staying in the NCAA means leaving billions on the table.
If the power 5 breaks off, it will be less than 75 schools.
If the power 5 breaks off, it will be less than 75 schools.
It would be a good thing, if sports were generating income that was used to reduce overall college tuition. However, I do not think that is what is actually happening.
True and supply, relative to populations growth, of high quality college education has shrunk. Top 150 schools have not increased enrollments to keep pace with population growth but have leveraged the scarcity of their "product" into significantly higher tuition. I know I'm far from alone where I pay $90,000 per year on college tuition for 2 kids. Over time this will/has factored into the wealth gap. That said, my friend and business partner never went to college and did not inherit anything (dirt poor parents) but is in the top 0.5% of wealthy Americans, so it can be done without a degree.
Because tuition is largely set by supply and demand.
If the power 5 breaks off, it will be less than 75 schools.
It would be a good thing, if sports were generating income that was used to reduce overall college tuition. However, I do not think that is what is actually happening.
If the power 5 breaks off, it will be less than 75 schools.
Because tuition is largely set by supply and demand.
Per Dodd, Notre Dame is looking at $75 million (at least) annually from NBC to extend their football TV deal with them. Dodd (a Big 12 reporter) is pushing for the Big 12 to be paired with the ND package for NBC to become a big(ger) player in college football content. ND sitting pretty at the moment, as they continue to have a standing invitation to the Big Ten (that will likely eclipse $100 million annually as a B1G member).I wonder if TV does not realize that there is a risk that nobody is going to play Notre Dame if Notre Dame remains independent by negotiating their own TV contract. When conferences go to 20 teams. It is possible the big power conferences will not be playing out of conference opponents.
If NBC doesn't meet the demands, ND could be gone to the Big Ten - thus sparking off another wave of realignment. Pretty wild that NBC basically controls the fate of the PAC, Big 12 and ACC moving forward. If ND books it to the Big Ten, they will certainly add another member to get to 18 teams, and the SEC isn't going to stand back and watch the Big Ten (over the course of several weeks) poach USC, UCLA, Notre Dame and potentially others.
I wonder if TV does not realize that there is a risk that nobody is going to play Notre Dame if Notre Dame remains independent by negotiating their own TV contract. When conferences go to 20 teams. It is possible the big power conferences will not be playing out of conference opponents.
Notre Dame will have no trouble filling out a schedule. The P5 will not be going more than 9 or 10 conference games regardless of size.
Because tuition is largely set by supply and demand.
NBC is usually pretty conservative when it comes to rights fees. (Outside of the NFL.) Plus they already shuddered NBCSN so are they going to show games on USA?
nah, it's to keep up with the ever-growing bureaucracy and expanding departments. Cal Berkeley is spending $25 million a year in DEI department salaries, 58% of that from tuition. Michigan spends over $13 million for DEI salaries. IT has always been an every growing department too, especially with so many schools doing online classes. Then the facilities arms race and increasing scholarships to keep up with costs.
nah, it's to keep up with the ever-growing bureaucracy and expanding departments. Cal Berkeley is spending $25 million a year in DEI department salaries, 58% of that from tuition. Michigan spends over $13 million for DEI salaries. IT has always been an every growing department too, especially with so many schools doing online classes. Then the facilities arms race and increasing scholarships to keep up with costs.
I’ve mentioned it a couple times in this thread (by no means yelling at you) that NBC wants a Saturday Big 10 5pm(ish) EST game, and also a handful of games to show on Peacock in September (non conference).
Thamel reporting the PAC and Big 12 will not be partnering or merging. The financials didn't work.I'm by far no expert, but I read somewhere that the PAC12 will be hampered in a new TV contract due to the feeling that Oregon and Washington are not long for the PAC12 and no network wants what is left over; whereas the Big12 "seems" stable. I can follow that logic if I was FOX or ESPN.
Both leagues will look to poach from the other, IMO. I don't think the payouts will be radically different. The only way a merger would have made sense is if the top brands of each league consolidated and trimmed the fat of the deadweights.
Close but no cigar on those numbers
Yeah, I’m probably too low by now. The Cal numbers were from last year. And tuition keeps rising…
Go back to the College Fix article you we were referencing. You misrepresented what those numbers were. The numbers were correct but they aren't what they spend on "DEI salaries"
Notre Dame will have no trouble filling out a schedule. The P5 will not be going more than 9 or 10 conference games regardless of size.I am thinking that schools like USC need non-conference games they can win. I think you need six wins for a bowl bid. Does USC continue to schedule Notre Dame or do they find a different game that is more likely to be a win?
I am thinking that schools like USC need non-conference games they can win. I think you need six wins for a bowl bid. Does USC continue to schedule Notre Dame or do they find a different game that is more likely to be a win?USC Notre Dame is a fixture . Hard to see a desire to change for either school.
I am thinking that schools like USC need non-conference games they can win. I think you need six wins for a bowl bid. Does USC continue to schedule Notre Dame or do they find a different game that is more likely to be a win?
Finding bowl bids if you’re a 6-6 Big Ten team is really easyYeah, bowl bids are COLE
I am thinking that schools like USC need non-conference games they can win. I think you need six wins for a bowl bid. Does USC continue to schedule Notre Dame or do they find a different game that is more likely to be a win?Considering USC is a favorite by Vegas to win the championship this year, I think their schedule is fine.
Considering USC is a favorite by Vegas to win the championship this year, I think their schedule is fine.I am not talking this year. I am talking about when(if) leagues go to 20 teams. I just read an article where a sports analyst was predicting we end up with three power conferences. He was not sure what happens to the teams left out. I would think it would not be wise for Notre Dame to be on the outside of the three super conferences.
I am not talking this year. I am talking about when(if) leagues go to 20 teams. I just read an article where a sports analyst was predicting we end up with three power conferences. He was not sure what happens to the teams left out. I would think it would not be wise for Notre Dame to be on the outside of the three super conferences.Get that, bit when you stated teams like USC. USC is a blueblood and will be even more powerdul now(Move to Big10 and NIL). They are not a team IMO that needs to schedule non conference lightweights.
Some guy on twitter:
Marc Fiscarelli
@MarcFiscHoops
Anonymous coaching source:
Gonzaga is set to join the Big East, and it’s going to happen sooner rather than later.
Both sides have been in contact with each other since 2021.
It is not currently known when the move will happen.
https://twitter.com/MarcFiscHoops/status/1549416712533168129
Some guy on twitter:
Marc Fiscarelli
@MarcFiscHoops
Anonymous coaching source:
Gonzaga is set to join the Big East, and it’s going to happen sooner rather than later.
Both sides have been in contact with each other since 2021.
It is not currently known when the move will happen.
https://twitter.com/MarcFiscHoops/status/1549416712533168129
That guy throws a ton of crap at the proverbial wall, forgets the wild predictions that don't happen, and pretends to be prescient when something does.
They’ll be in as part of the next TV deal
Entirely possible, but that account wouldn't be one I cite as proof of that.
Some guy on twitter:
Marc Fiscarelli
@MarcFiscHoops
Anonymous coaching source:
Gonzaga is set to join the Big East, and it’s going to happen sooner rather than later.
Both sides have been in contact with each other since 2021.
It is not currently known when the move will happen.
https://twitter.com/MarcFiscHoops/status/1549416712533168129
Just another scooper.
Interview with SEC Commissioner. They are focused on absorbing Texas and Oklahoma and having a 16 team conference for now.Yes, and Putin said they were just running military exercises near Ukraine. ;D
Yes, and Putin said they were just running military exercises near Ukraine. ;DPut the link for the actual interview on the original post
Put the link for the actual interview on the original postI guess you're missing the point.
I guess you're missing the point.
I think Herman meant "I put the link for the actual interview on the original post"I agree with this analysis
I think Herman meant "I put the link for the actual interview on the original post"Ok but WhiteTrash was addressing SEC (Russia)...
I think Herman meant "I put the link for the actual interview on the original post"
Some guy on twitter:
Marc Fiscarelli
@MarcFiscHoops
Anonymous coaching source:
Gonzaga is set to join the Big East, and it’s going to happen sooner rather than later.
Both sides have been in contact with each other since 2021.
It is not currently known when the move will happen.
https://twitter.com/MarcFiscHoops/status/1549416712533168129
Gonzaga has to join for the same reason Creighton joined. If Gonzaga ever wants to win a Natty, they better start playing teams worthy of the talent they put on the court.
Gonzaga won't get that in the Intermountain Baby League, or whatever conference they play in.
LOL.I think that both Gonzaga and the Big East would like to join up as it would benefit both. The distance issue is material and I think the only hurdle to it happening. But Gonzaga can win it out of the WCC, I have no doubt.
Gonzaga has played in 2 of the last 5 CHAMPIONSHIP games.
3 of the last 5 Elite 8's and 5 of the last 5 S16s.
Find me a program that has that track record. Their conference is not the reason they haven't won it all. The only issue they have is time because that's the only thing standing in their way. It's gonna happen.
I think that both Gonzaga and the Big East would like to join up as it would benefit both. The distance issue is material and I think the only hurdle to it happening. But Gonzaga can win it out of the WCC, I have no doubt.
Long term I would suspect that resolving the distance issue and coming into the Big East would be in their best interest since nobody knows what Gonzaga will be after Few leaves. The Big East would definitely add more money to Gonzaga's program to help sustain what has been built.
Hopefully the NCAA will finally allow "basketball only" so that the travel issues of Gonzaga's other sports could be resolved and those can stay out West.
LOL.
Gonzaga has played in 2 of the last 5 CHAMPIONSHIP games.
3 of the last 5 Elite 8's and 5 of the last 5 S16s.
Find me a program that has that track record. Their conference is not the reason they haven't won it all. The only issue they have is time because that's the only thing standing in their way. It's gonna happen.
They've earned it for sure and you cant scoff at those numbers by any means - they've had some really good teams. But coasting to a basically unbeaten record all year and therefore easily earning a 1 seed time after time diminishes anything outside of a final four run IMO. If you're a 1 seed the run is basically laid out there for you. Whatever, I'm just salty it's not us
If what Gonzaga was doing was easy, wouldn't everyone do it? They don't just go basically unbeaten, they beat the brains in of a league that is typically a top-10 league. Programs like Loyola-Chicago, San Diego State, Dayton, and Houston have every opportunity to do the same, but none have. In the past 4 years that Gonzaga was 1-seed worthy and finished top-2 at kenpom, they have 2 league play losses combined.
In that same span, only two teams in the MVC, MWC, A-10, or American have finished their season with 0-1 league losses. Both were in 2020, when 18-0 Dayton would have been a 1-seed and 17-1 San Diego State would've been a 2-seed. It's there for other programs, Gonzaga's the only one good enough to do it consistently.
Regarding the idea of a "west coast travel partner." I like the idea in concept, but I'm not sure any school fits the profile. You'd think St. Mary's, but its not as though that's easy jump from Spokane.
I really wish Denver would have been able to get their basketball program in gear because it would be a nice fit with the addition of Gonzaga. And is already a BE conference member in lacrosse.
BEast schools on the east coast can play a midwest school on the way to or from Spokane. And Gonzaga can play a midwest school on the way to or from the east coast.
I really don't think it's a very big deal for Gonzaga's basketball program, which has a huge budget, or for the rest of the BEast schools, which will only have to make the trip once a year each.
It's possibly a much bigger deal for the non-revenue sports at all schools, especially Gonzaga, though there might be ways to mitigate those costs. For the Zags, getting significantly more TV money because they're part of the BEast could certainly help its entire athletic program travel.
Don't add for the sake of a travel partner. No good options worth cutting another slice out of the pie.
Give schools heading west an extra couple days and let them use it to travel or schedule a non-con while they're out there if they want. I imagine there are enough mid-major schools who would jump at the chance to get a BE squad at home that you can find someone who fits the schedule if you want.
Would Gonzaga be as good once Few retires? He turns 60 this year.My guess is they go down a notch
Will Villanova? Duke? Will Kansas ever get punished?
A fair point, though. If Gonzaga's coach retires after they have joined the Big East, would that make the next deal worth a Few less million?
Would Gonzaga be as good once Few retires? He turns 60 this year.
My guess is they go down a notch
Would Gonzaga be as good once Few retires? He turns 60 this year.They will not be any worse than Marquette is.
It’s happeningNo GIF? Very COLE of you.
They will not be any worse than Marquette is.
We haven't been any good for what? Eight years now!
We haven't been any good for what? Eight years now!Actually, since the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
When did this happen?https://c.tenor.com/fghL8vRH8YsAAAAd/animal-house-bluto.gif
They will not be any worse than Marquette is.I got less grief on this than I thought I would.
I got less grief on this than I thought I would.Spokane is OK. Nothing special. Milwaukee is much better.
The big differences between Gonzaga and Marquette are the leagues they are in, and the fact MU won the national title in 1977.
Gonzaga moving to Big East removes the one difference.
I have no idea if Spokane is any better or worse than Milwaukee. They are both Jesuit schools with big basketball budgets. They are likely to drop down a notch, if Few retires. No different than MU after McGuire. I suppose they could become as bad as DePaul, but I do not buy the argument they would not be a good addition to the Big East, because Few is 60 years old.
Spokane is OK. Nothing special. Milwaukee is much better.
I got less grief on this than I thought I would.
The big differences between Gonzaga and Marquette are the leagues they are in, and the fact MU won the national title in 1977.
Gonzaga moving to Big East removes the one difference.
I have no idea if Spokane is any better or worse than Milwaukee. They are both Jesuit schools with big basketball budgets. They are likely to drop down a notch, if Few retires. No different than MU after McGuire. I suppose they could become as bad as DePaul, but I do not buy the argument they would not be a good addition to the Big East, because Few is 60 years old.
Spokane has access to amazing outdoor activity and natural beauty. Milwaukee is in the Midwest. As far as the city goes, the ‘cane is pretty bleak. Trade offs.
I love Wisconsin, but nothing in Wisconsin, including the water show at the Dells, compares to Northern Idaho, or the Cascades, or the Canadian Okanagan....
I love Wisconsin, but nothing in Wisconsin, including the water show at the Dells, compares to Northern Idaho, or the Cascades, or the Canadian Okanagan....
It depends on what you like to do. Wisconsin has some of the very best destination golf courses in the Country. Every golfer should have Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and Sand Valley on their bucket list. Northern Wisconsin is filled with beautiful lakes that are with great fishing. Buffalo county is a destination for serious Deer Hunters. Milwaukee has great Professional sports, and visiting Green Bay and Lambeau is a pilgrimage every NFL fan has on their list. I don’t know that the Water show in the Dells would be what I would highlight.I would guess that most college basketball players are not deer hunters.
I would guess that most college basketball players are not deer hunters.
So most are probably big downhill skiers?
So most are probably big downhill skiers?hard to believe, but there are a couple World Cup downhillers that go 6’8”!
You guys are hilarious.
Comparing Milwaukee to Spokane is like comparing Milwaukee to Dubuque.
You just can't.
Look, here's the reality: Players will go anywhere for the right coach and the right circumstance. If you're getting your best shot at the NBA and a good education to boot, even Rock Island, IL or Wilkes Barre, PA would look good. Nobody gave a darn what Milwaukee was like when Al McGuire was coach. You came for Al and you found your way. Ditto for Spokane with Mark Few. Gonzaga hires a great coach when Coach Few retires and players will beat a path to Spokane.
Louisville, KY is no great Mecca of urban wonderland either. But when Slick Rick and Denny Crum were winning, great players found their way!
You guys are hilarious.This is true. Look at the home of the last two National Champs; Waco and Lawrence. Yuk!
Comparing Milwaukee to Spokane is like comparing Milwaukee to Dubuque.
You just can't.
Look, here's the reality: Players will go anywhere for the right coach and the right circumstance. If you're getting your best shot at the NBA and a good education to boot, even Rock Island, IL or Wilkes Barre, PA would look good. Nobody gave a darn what Milwaukee was like when Al McGuire was coach. You came for Al and you found your way. Ditto for Spokane with Mark Few. Gonzaga hires a great coach when Coach Few retires and players will beat a path to Spokane.
Louisville, KY is no great Mecca of urban wonderland either. But when Slick Rick and Denny Crum were winning, great players found their way!
This is true. Look at the home of the last two National Champs; Waco and Lawrence. Yuk!
(Cue the Waco and Lawrence are underrated comments) ::)
This is true. Look at the home of the last two National Champs; Waco and Lawrence. Yuk!
(Cue the Waco and Lawrence are underrated comments) ::)
Waco is a craphole. Lawrence is pretty nice.
Have you been there? Waco is better than that.
Or East Lansing, MI? Bloomington, IN? Storrs, CT?Bloomington is actually a really nice college town. You've been watching Breaking Away too much, cutter!
Players will go anywhere, if that's where their coach is, or if that's where their best opportunity is.
East Lansing is garbage. Worst Big whatever cityWest Lafayette says hello…
West Lafayette says hello…
Lawrence is pretty nice.For Kansas, yes. A KU grad told me how great it was, then I visited. 'Great' wasn't the word I would use. Compared to Manhattan, KS, maybe. (never been there)
Still better than East LansingWhat about CU, IL.?
What about CU, IL.?
Still better than East LansingEast Lansing is mostly MSU. The rest of the town is Middle to Upper Middle class homes .
East Lansing is mostly MSU. The rest of the town is Middle to Upper Middle class homes .
East Lansing is fine.
Still better than East Lansing
There’s a difference between East Lansing and Lansing, EL is a college town, so much to do on Grand River. Used to visit friends there and bar hop, rooftop restaurants, etc. Just don’t go towards downtown Lansing.East Lansing is the best........................ for sexually assaulting girls.
Janet Reno should have burned the entire area down back in the day. Waco is nasty, maybe as nasty as Champaign-Urbana.
Janet Reno should have burned the entire area down back in the day. Waco is nasty, maybe as nasty as Champaign-Urbana.
I visited Waco when a MU friend worked there. Hell hole was being generous.What school is in Piscataway?
The worst college towns I've visited are Pullman, WA, Columbia, MO, West Lafayette, IN, and Piscataway, NJ
What school is in Piscataway?Rutgers
I visited Waco when a MU friend worked there. Hell hole was being generous.
The worst college towns I've visited are Pullman, WA, Columbia, MO, West Lafayette, IN, and Piscataway, NJ
RutgersBeing pedantic, I thought RU was in New Brunswick, which has a much different vibe than Piscataway.
Being pedantic, I thought RU was in New Brunswick, which has a much different vibe than Piscataway.
Its technically both. The Campus spreads over the river on both. The formerly known RAC and whatever they call the football stadium these days are both in Piscataway, for example.Right, but from my recollection, all of the real campus stuff, and any entertainment stuff is in New Brunswick. So going to Piscataway, doesn't really give you the college experience. That being said, it's still not a destination many clamor to go to.
On the alternative, Morgantown was really pleasantly surprising. Its really pretty in a lot of parts.
In what might bode well for the Big East, ESPN is backing away from the Big 10 broadcast rights.https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2022/08/09/Media/ESPN-Big-Ten-TV-rights.aspx
The Big East will likely steer clear of ESPN given its prior efforts to run the Big East out of business.Yuk.
Fox is the incumbent but there are a number of new players on the market who might want to make a bid with streaming services: Apple, Amazon, Hulu, etc.
The Big East will likely steer clear of ESPN given its prior efforts to run the Big East out of business.
Fox is the incumbent but there are a number of new players on the market who might want to make a bid with streaming services: Apple, Amazon, Hulu, etc.
And eliminating ESPN because I f what occurred over ten years ago would be simply bad business.
What about CU, IL.?
You don't eliminate them but they come from a competitive disadvantage. Future ESPN deals outside the P2/3 will be heavy on games moving to ESPN+, which is why UConn wanted out of the AAC once their contract kicked in. Also to remember: ESPN picked up the NHL and that's 100 more regular season games to schedule on their networks through 2028 (and, by default, college games to go elsewhere).
In what might bode well for the Big East, ESPN is backing away from the Big 10 broadcast rights.https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Daily/Issues/2022/08/09/Media/ESPN-Big-Ten-TV-rights.aspxInteresting reading the article. ABC first had Big Ten Coverage in 1966. I can remember going to the 1966 Michigan State Notre Dame game in East Lansing, the infamous 10-10 tie. The MSU fans were screaming "Kill Bubba Kill " for Bubba Smith. It was quite a spectacle and really kick started ABC as a college football leader.
You don't eliminate them but they come from a competitive disadvantage. Future ESPN deals outside the P2/3 will be heavy on games moving to ESPN+, which is why UConn wanted out of the AAC once their contract kicked in. Also to remember: ESPN picked up the NHL and that's 100 more regular season games to schedule on their networks through 2028 (and, by default, college games to go elsewhere).
My guess is that the B10 wanted to get this out there ASAP, and NOT look at additional expansion from the P12, because the University of California Regents were rumbling about blocking UCLA's move.
Right, but from my recollection, all of the real campus stuff, and any entertainment stuff is in New Brunswick. So going to Piscataway, doesn't really give you the college experience. That being said, it's still not a destination many clamor to go to.
Interesting reading the article. ABC first had Big Ten Coverage in 1966. I can remember going to the 1966 Michigan State Notre Dame game in East Lansing, the infamous 10-10 tie. The MSU fans were screaming "Kill Bubba Kill " for Bubba Smith. It was quite a spectacle and really kick started ABC as a college football leader.
New Brunswick was my hometown growing up. I lived a mile from the Queens college campus located on the west end of New Brunswick. Douglas college ( primarily still today the women's college) is located on the east end of town and south of Douglas is the Cook campus which houses the Agricultural college; yes, they don't call us the Garden State for nothing. Livingston college is located on the Piscataway campus where the bulk of classes are held. They all are considered Rutgers.
Well New Brunswick may not be the destination many clamor to go for college sports it is certainly a destination many clamor to go as it is the Corporate Head Quarters of Johnson &.Johnson and the Robert Wood Johnson Medical School as well as Rutgers University.
I thought New Brunswick was a province.
I thought New Brunswick was a province.
University of New Brunswick to the Big East?
Not big, but very east.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXtyo5FUEAId5xC?format=jpg&name=small)
Doc,
Fxxk law and order. We need rocket and ziggy set free today!!!
Absolutely, the people have spoken, hey?
Absolutely, the people have spoken, hey?
Perhaps they should be better at submitting to the bosses around here, aina?
Perhaps they should be better at submitting to the bosses around here, aina?
Seriously. It's surprisingly cheap to bribe Rocky.Arby's
Matt Brown reported yesterday that both Oregon and Washington have met with B10, but it doesn't look like an offer is forthcoming. Said that the conference might be out ahead of the presidents on this.This would be a good reason why the networks are opening up talks with the B12 early. The PAC12 is too unstable to commit 100's of millions of dollars to. Substituting SDSU and UNLV for Oregon and Washington would be a game changer for the networks.
This would be a good reason why the networks are opening up talks with the B12 early. The PAC12 is too unstable to commit 100's of millions of dollars to. Substituting SDSU and UNLV for Oregon and Washington would be a game changer for the networks.
I feel bad for the PAC12. Yes, USC and UCLA screwed them , but it also sound like the last commish, Larry Scott, was an overpaid 'do nothing' leader and the schools are responsible for that.
But they also have to step up and perform. Two top ten teams in action this weekend. Utah lost at an unranked Florida and Oregon got absolutely trounced v Georgia. The P12 would be more valuable if they actually played better football.
BTW hiring a 36 year old coach who previously was DC at Georgia was probably not a great choice.
BTW hiring a 36 year old coach who previously was DC at Georgia was probably not a great choice.
I mean, their last great coach was a guy in his early 40s who spent his entire career in the Northeast at FCS schools except for a single year as the OC in Eugene.
Georgia went from an offensive/QB mind in Mark Richt to a 40 year old DC from Bama in Kirby Smart.
I don't know if Lanning is the guy, but its not like he's some coddled legacy SEC hire. He was a D2 player who went from HS coach to coaching for one of the best FCS schools within 4 years. And then position coaching at UGA another 4 years after. And he coached OLBs and that absurd defense at UGA. And was one of the highest ranked recruiters in the country.
He may not work out but I don't think it was a bad hire at all. And getting thumped by one of the 2 best teams in the country has little bearing on that, IMO. They had to replace their QB, 2 of their top 3 RBs, and a couple WRs, not to mention Thibodeaux
Georgia is the new ClemsonNeither will ever beat MU football
Neither will ever beat MU footballPut that on a t-shirt! Wear it in the Southeast and see how many inbreds want to kick you ass.
Colin Cowherd made a comment about this is why USC HAD to leave the Pac-12.
Probably had to leave more because they aren't getting big CFP money if they don't, particularly if the P12 gets left out at any point. They didn't leave because it will make the football program better, but rather because they have a big enough brand to do it and the money they get will allow them to continue even if the football program is mediocre.
Put that on a t-shirt! Wear it in the Southeast and see how many inbreds want to kick you ass.Very racist
Colin Cowherd made a comment about this is why USC HAD to leave the Pac-12. The Pac-12 hasn’t been good, however, usc hasn’t made the playoff yet and haven’t been a relevant power in over a decade. Pac-12 football needs USC to be good or contending and they haven’t been. USC thinking the grass is greener moving to the Big 10 is interesting when realignment hasn’t been for the most part for schools unless moving up. The extra dollars will make things look greener, but making USC better on the field because the league isn’t good is an interesting take
Colin Cowherd made a comment about this is why USC HAD to leave the Pac-12. The Pac-12 hasn’t been good, however, usc hasn’t made the playoff yet and haven’t been a relevant power in over a decade. Pac-12 football needs USC to be good or contending and they haven’t been. USC thinking the grass is greener moving to the Big 10 is interesting when realignment hasn’t been for the most part for schools unless moving up. The extra dollars will make things look greener, but making USC better on the field because the league isn’t good is an interesting takeSC is back, baby!! No doubt.
It’s not the PAC-12’s fault USC has been cheap and made bad hires since Carroll left. Kiffin, Sark (drinking issues were known at UDub), Clay Helton. They’d been pretty mediocre since John McKay and John Robinson left (the first time) until Carroll was hired…a hire that was universally panned by sports media.
This would be a good reason why the networks are opening up talks with the B12 early. The PAC12 is too unstable to commit 100's of millions of dollars to. Substituting SDSU and UNLV for Oregon and Washington would be a game changer for the networks.
I feel bad for the PAC12. Yes, USC and UCLA screwed them , but it also sound like the last commish, Larry Scott, was an overpaid 'do nothing' leader and the schools are responsible for that.
This is really a pathetic move by the P12.
All right, next up..... Washington?
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34646721/in-letter-pac-12-george-kliavkoff-cites-significant-financial-mental-health-concerns-ucla-move-big-ten (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34646721/in-letter-pac-12-george-kliavkoff-cites-significant-financial-mental-health-concerns-ucla-move-big-ten)
While I personally would find it funny and enjoyable for UCLA to get smacked back to the P12; asking Kliavkoff his opinion on the matter is like asking Trump how he thinks Biden is doing as president.
Finally, Kliavkoff said added travel runs contrary to the UC system's climate goals and works against UCLA's commitment to "climate neutrality" by 2025.
Is this an appeal to Biden and Newsom to step in with some kind of executive order?
Stupid, stupid, stupid!
You would think we were back in the day where everyone still traveled by train. Yeah, when it takes three days each way to get across the country (yes, folks, this is Amtrak), the Pac-12 argument makes sense.
But the reality is that UCLA can reach the core of the Big 10 (Nebraska to Ohio State) in about 4.5 to 5 hours non-stop on a charter. That's maybe an hour longer than going to Pullman, WA or Seattle.
Pac 10 -- the Big 12 is waiting.
But LA to Pullman is in the same time zone. LA to Columbus is not. That’s a factor for the kids traveling both ways. And you assume golf, softball, or volleyball will charter. They won’t.True, but you assume Football and Basketball will be tied to schools is some way that would demand equality amongst student athletes. They won't.
True, but you assume Football and Basketball will be tied to schools is some way that would demand equality amongst student athletes. They won't.
True, but you assume Football and Basketball will be tied to schools is some way that would demand equality amongst student athletes. They won't.
In 10 years, the Big 12 will be revealed as the #3 conference. The top ACC brands will leave for the SEC/B1G, and then the Big 12 will take what's left. The B1G will inevitably take UW/Oregon/Stanford/California at some point in the coming years.
I think the Big 12 will be a very special basketball league.
Early on I thought that the Big 12 would be left for dead by realignment. As this has played out, I realized that I wasn't thinking about them correctly. Once Texas and Oklahoma left...none of the remaining programs are really worth that much. They are a collection of teams that are a the second, third, fourth, or fifth most popular teams in their own state, plus Kansas and West Virginia. BUT, they are a collection of programs that have been solid performers in football and championship level performers in basketball. This simultaneously gets them a seat at the big boys table while also protecting them from getting raided by the big boys. The Big 10 and SEC don't want what they have left...but they are good enough to be the third power conference.
If I had to guess, one day we will be seeing:
Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Washington, ND, Colorado, Georgia Tech, Virginia to the Big 10 (24 teams)
Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Virginia Tech, Louisville, NC State, North Carolina, and Duke to the SEC (24 teams)
Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Washington State to Big 12 (16 teams)
Leaving teams like Syracuse, Pitt, Boston College, Wake Forest, and Oregon State on the outside looking in. This is just a guess and we can certainly argue over which teams go where, but I do think there will be a population of schools that are currently P5 that will not make the cut for P2.5. I think the Big East should be ready to offer these schools a lifeline in the form of a UConn type arrangement.
Pete Thamel reporting Gonzaga and Big XII have had some discussions
Would make a lot of sense
Would make a lot of sense
Why does this make sense panda or more sense than joining the BEast?
Most of the schools are only 2 time zones away than 3, but what do I know.
Not a fan of Gonzaga partnering up with the Big East at all because of the travel.
Meh. Give me Dayton. Resurrect the old rivalry.Teal?
Meh. Give me Dayton. Resurrect the old rivalry.
Meh. Give me Dayton. Resurrect the old rivalry.
Drunk?Not in years. There is a part of me that thinks the Big East should steal from the EPL and have relegation and promotion with the A-10.
It is a lonely bandwagon.
Why does this make sense panda or more sense than joining the BEast?
Meh. Give me Dayton. Resurrect the old rivalry.no
Dayton or SLU?
Hospital food or airline food?
Premier basketball conference with the majority of members mucg closer than BE schools..
.
Is another hour or so on their plane that big of a deal? Perhaps I am biased but as a non-football school I think the BEast makes more sense.
So, the best program or a new media market? From a strictly basketball standpoint, give me a team that can get nationally ranked in the A-10.That is one of the best arguments for Dayton I have ever read. You've moved me to the point where I'll be happy with Dayton in the Big East.............. when hell freezes over.
I get it. Now, Fox says find a 12th team. Gonzaga says no. Who is your pick and why?1) ABD
I get it. Now, Fox says find a 12th team. Gonzaga says no. Who is your pick and why?
Why does this make sense panda or more sense than joining the BEast?
[/quote
Seriously? Money and travel.
I get it. Now, Fox says find a 12th team. Gonzaga says no. Who is your pick and why?It is not an easy / obvious answer. As for Dayton, I can overlook the arrogant fans and school that act like they are UNC, Kentucky & UCLA all rolled into one. I really don't like the proximity to Xavier.
I still argue there's at least one more BIG move coming. IT will be triggered by, who else? The SEC.A lot to unpack here but I think it makes sense. Not sure how the SEC, B10, ACC fallout trips a Big12, PAC12 merge but I'll buy it. I think there's a fair chance the B12 will pick off PAC12 teams in advance of the end of the ACC Grant of Rights ending in 2035(?) when the SEC will come calling on the ACC. All in all, I think you are right.
North Carolina, Clemson, Miami and Florida State to at some point end up in the SEC. At that point, the SEC is finished expanding. This makes too much sense.
Virginia and Notre Dame end up in the BIG 10. The rest of the ACC is toast.
The Big whatever, headed by Okie State, Kansas, Kansas State and Iowa State join with what's left of the Pac10 to form a superconference. Washington and Oregon become the lynchpins, savings the Beavs and the Cougs for big time college athletics. This one could happen in the near future as the Pac10 renegotiates its television contract.
As I've said before, Val needs to then court Duke and maybe Wake Forest for the BEast.
I don't see Gonzaga as a big problem for us, iof they want to join us. Some of the distances they travel now are about as far as they'd go for most of our conference. As Brother Muggsy said, what's another hour on an airplane? Oh, and for Gonzaga to join the B12, they need a semblance of a football team.
A lot to unpack here but I think it makes sense. Not sure how the SEC, B10, ACC fallout trips a Big12, PAC12 merge but I'll buy it. I think there's a fair chance the B12 will pick off PAC12 teams in advance of the end of the ACC Grant of Rights ending in 2035(?) when the SEC will come calling on the ACC. All in all, I think you are right.
Meh. Give me Dayton. Resurrect the old rivalry.
I get it. Now, Fox says find a 12th team. Gonzaga says no. Who is your pick and why?
The Big East isn't actively looking at anyone.I assume this is the case. However, it would be negligent to not have a plan just in case.
The real question here is who leaked that this meeting took place last week. My suspicion is that it was Gonzaga. Yormark can say all he wants about telegraphing intentions, but if he really wants to add Gonzaga, the way to do it is keep quiet until there's something to announce.
Instead, this comes out as the Big East is meeting in NYC? Virtually no chance that's a coincidence. This is a signal flag that Gonzaga is going to move up and letting all the suitors know it's put up or shut up time. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't someone at Gonzaga that made sure this went public exactly when it did.
As for Dayton, I can overlook the arrogant fans and school that act like they are UNC, Kentucky & UCLA all rolled into one. I really don't like the proximity to Xavier.
Saint Louis checks a lot of boxes except tradition and the new arena is smallish for BE.
VCU - like Dayton, I don't like the proximity to GTown.
Loyola - DePaul
It is not an easy / obvious answer. As for Dayton, I can overlook the arrogant fans and school that act like they are UNC, Kentucky & UCLA all rolled into one. I really don't like the proximity to Xavier.
I think market is a major factor (see Big10 with Rutgers & Maryland) along with tradition and competitiveness.
Saint Louis checks a lot of boxes except tradition and the new arena is smallish for BE.
VCU - like Dayton, I don't like the proximity to GTown.
Loyola - DePaul
I think the MVC is picked over at this point (Bradley is tempting with the coach there :D)
Does Memphis want to go independent in football?
Yeah these are good points. To compound this, why would the B12 expand to include them AFTER they announced their new media deal?Is this Yormark messing with the PAC12? In the BIGXII interest in Gonzaga and SDSU a little too coincidental right after USC & UCLA bolt?
On arena capacity, Chaifetz is on par with the Cintas Center, Wintrust, Gampel, and Hinkle. And larger than Carnesecca and Finneran where St. Johns and Villanova play at least some games each year--and St. Louis can always do the same and shift some games to the Enterprise Center, which would be one of the larger venues in the Big East. I don't see venue capacity as an issue here.
In terms of distance, why would the 54 miles from Dayton to Cincinnati be problematic, but not the 51 miles from Providence to Storrs or 41 miles from Seton Hall to St. Johns? As far as the 109 miles from Richmond (VCU) to DC being too close, it would be about 25 miles more distant than Marquette is from DePaul. Plus, the St. Johns/Seton Hall, Providence/Uconn, and Seton Hall/Villanova pairs are all closer than Richmond to DC, and Villanova to Georgetown is only marginally more distant.
Okay then, my answer is VCU and Saint Louis. Then Dayton when hell freezes over.
The only school worth adding at the moment is Gonzaga. Because of TV negotiations, things are seemingly pressing. Ideally, the league waits to see how things shake out with the major conferences.
The real question here is who leaked that this meeting took place last week. My suspicion is that it was Gonzaga. Yormark can say all he wants about telegraphing intentions, but if he really wants to add Gonzaga, the way to do it is keep quiet until there's something to announce.
Instead, this comes out as the Big East is meeting in NYC? Virtually no chance that's a coincidence. This is a signal flag that Gonzaga is going to move up and letting all the suitors know it's put up or shut up time. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't someone at Gonzaga that made sure this went public exactly when it did.
The same guy who leaks every GU conference rumor: Mark Few. Only this time the AD was aware and involved.
I get the Xavier/Dayton proximity but VCU/GTown? Yes, on a map-they are close but only on a map. Speaking from first-hand experience over many years-driving time was once about 2 hours but today 3 hours minimum and closer to 4 is much more realistic. Add in that the two metro areas have nothing to do with each other -no love lost between them- and Gtown is acting like that no longer care about bball. VCU fans and Richmond enthusiastically support their team unlike (reportedly) St. Louis fans.
Passage between DC and Fredericksburg is always a nightmare. I've never not seen a slow down. Are they ever going to finish the I-95 construction in Virginia?
Can’t wait until they’re in a new league
The only school worth adding at the moment is Gonzaga. Because of TV negotiations, things are seemingly pressing. Ideally, the league waits to see how things shake out with the major conferences.I agree but the question was any school except Gonzaga.
They’ve gotten everything they can from the WCC. Nothing more financially to squeeze from them. Talking with some GU contacts today, the concern about costs for olympic sports to travel can be addressed by dropping sports. Foe example, no current Big 12 schools have Men’s Soccer. See ya, gents.
They’ve gotten everything they can from the WCC. Nothing more financially to squeeze from them. Talking with some GU contacts today, the concern about costs for olympic sports to travel can be addressed by dropping sports. Foe example, no current Big 12 schools have Men’s Soccer. See ya, gents.
Pennywise and pound foolish.
Gonzaga has 30 men on its soccer roster. The scholarship limit is 10. (9.9 actually but I am rounding up.) If those 20 FTE are paying a net tuition revenue of around $20,000, that would mean $400,000 in revenue that would be gone if they dropped soccer. That is way more than the marginal cost of educating those students and funding the operations of the team - including the increased travel. I am not including the room and board those 20 FTE would pay either.
you're saying $400,000 a year (generous amount) is more than the additional $10+ million a year (likely much more) GU will realize from being in a Power 5 conference?
And considering the demand to get into GU, they'll fill those male spots immediately and not have to provide them athletic aid, expenses, Alston benefits, travel, etc.
Gonzaga has 30 men on its soccer roster. The scholarship limit is 10. (9.9 actually but I am rounding up.) If those 20 FTE are paying a net tuition revenue of around $20,000, that would mean $400,000 in revenue that would be gone if they dropped soccer. That is way more than the marginal cost of educating those students and funding the operations of the team - including the increased travel. I am not including the room and board those 20 FTE would pay either.
On a somewhat related note, Mount Union has 196 kids on their football roster (https://athletics.mountunion.edu/sports/football/roster).* That's damn near 10% of their students. Talk about using sports to drive revenue. Overall, more than 40% of the students at Mount Union participate in intercollegiate athletics.
*Go ahead and click on the link and take a look at that team picture. There are so many kids it looks ridiculous.
https://twitter.com/patrick_reusse/status/1615938801968484354?s=42&t=7bGvqbfHJUzux1Zfg-MAbA
Is there any truth to this tweet
https://twitter.com/patrick_reusse/status/1615938801968484354?s=42&t=7bGvqbfHJUzux1Zfg-MAbA
Is there any truth to this tweet
https://twitter.com/patrick_reusse/status/1615938801968484354?s=42&t=7bGvqbfHJUzux1Zfg-MAbASothern Illinois University has a better chance of getting into the SEC than this happening.
Is there any truth to this tweet
https://twitter.com/patrick_reusse/status/1615938801968484354?s=42&t=7bGvqbfHJUzux1Zfg-MAbAThe Big East could have its pick of the litter from the A10. It would not go for St. Thomas out of the Summit.
Is there any truth to this tweet
Yeah these are good points. To compound this, why would the B12 expand to include them AFTER they announced their new media deal?
Southern Illinois University has a better chance ofgetting intowinning the SEC in football than this happening.
Why would the PAC 10/12 whatever, the Big 12 or even a merged PAC/ACC want Gonzaga? I thought all this realignment is about football. Do you really think the Big East Schools would even think of joining the B1G or the SEC or Big 12 after being treated like second class step siblings in the Old Big East? So where does Gonzaga go? The Big East has all the leverage when it comes to Gonzaga.
Also what happens when Few decides to go the Jay Wright route; we might just have a GU West like we havea GU East at the moment.
Georgetown would jump at an ACC invite IMO.
The Tommies are throwing around a lot of cash right now. Anything is possible. Plus they have that new car smell, not the stench that follows Dayton or SLU.
https://twitter.com/patrick_reusse/status/1615938801968484354?s=42&t=7bGvqbfHJUzux1Zfg-MAbA
Is there any truth to this tweet
The Tommies are throwing around a lot of cash right now. Anything is possible. Plus they have that new car smell, not the stench that follows Dayton or SLU.
They emulate the comedic stylings of Dayton fans.
Is St Thomas joining BE ?
LOLLLLLLLLLL … uh. No.
Maybe in 2046. At the earliest…
I'm comfortable with this Expansion Power Ranking:
1) Gonzaga
2) St. Thomas
3) Not Expanding
4) Not Expanding
5) Not Expanding
6) Not Expanding
7) Not Expanding
8) Not Expanding
9) Dayton
10) SLU
Can you have more than 1 Saint in a conference?
I'm comfortable with this Expansion Power Ranking:Only if you meant St. Thomas, US Virgin Island.
1) Gonzaga
2) St. Thomas
3) Not Expanding
4) Not Expanding
5) Not Expanding
6) Not Expanding
7) Not Expanding
8) Not Expanding
9) Dayton
10) SLU
There are some objective folks in this thread who are forward thinking.
There are a few folks in this thread clinging awfully tight to MUBB winning an NCAA Tourney game in 8 seasons of the past 40 or so years. And that’s with the MUBB advantage of being in the Big East for almost 20 of those years.
And there are some folks fighting personal demons.
……………………
Creighton won an NCAA Tourney game 3 seasons since the 1970’s prior to joining the Big East. Of course they have done it 3 times since, (MUBB zero) I don’t see much whining about Creighton in the Big East. This is really the best example here.
Thank goodness for former long time Midwest Collegiate Conference Xavier.
Providence has won a game in the NCAA Tourney in 4 seasons in the past 35 plus years.
Seton Hall has won an NCAA Tourney game in 3 seasons in the past 30 or so years.
St. John’s has won an NCAA Tourney game about 5 times in the past 35 years.
DePaul has made 2 or so NCAA tourney appearances in almost 30 years.
Georgetown has won an NCAA Tourney game in about 4 of the past 25 seasons.
………….
Perhaps a proposed MUBB conference can be:
MUBB
UNC
Duke
Kentucky
UCLA
Kansas
The conference can be called the Marquette Six.
I'm sorry...what is your point exactly?
Butler and Xavier were obvious choices due to sustained performance over a decade plus. Creighton got the last invite because not only were they doing well on the basketball court, but were a top 10 program in terms of attendance, was a new market, and wasn't run by a moron like SLU was.
On another note, I personally don't understand the "personal demon" you fight as an apparent self-loathing Marquette alumnus who runs to the defense of a university you didn't attend anytime it is mentioned here.
Lol nah.
I don’t think you understand what self loathing means. I actually have enjoyed MU enough to have been a student athlete there, and a long time season ticket holder who has traveled to and from many states to attend games. (I often wonder why so many locals are so active in the game day thread home games instead of being at the games)
I have made zero posts whining and complaining about MU’s program. I hold zero ill will towards past coaches or players who have left the program. Inactively support and attend games of many MU athletic programs not just the Men’s basketball team, as well as of recruits in a variety of sports including MUBB hoops.
I wish Marquette had won a game in 40 of 40 NCAA tourneys instead of 8 of 40. It isn’t going to take away my enjoyment. In order to be an MUBB fan, I don’t have to have personal angst against insert team here, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, or whomever. I don’t need to put down other players, coaches, or teams to lift myself up. My self esteem is higher than that. I’m good.
Saying that MUBB has won an NCAA tourney game in 8 of the last 40 NCAA tourneys isn’t self loathing. The obvious overall point is that the misplaced defensive insecure arrogance is silly season.
Look, St. Thomas College is a small college with big ambition. My brother has a degree from there and its served him well in life.
But the Tommies have a long way to go before they reach the cache of most Big East teams. Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Providence, Villanova, UConn and Butler all have Final Four or NCAA championships in their history. Granted, some of that history is ancient --very ancient in some cases -- but these are traditional basketball schools whose notoriety ebbs and flows over time.
St. Thomas always will be a cupcake that teams like Marquette play in early November.
Call me when they recruit a team of three stars and four stars. Or when the Minneapolis-St. Paul ADI does not include the University of Minnesota. Adding the Tommies to the Big East for the Twin Cities is like adding the Gary Railcats minor league baseball team to a league to "gain access" to the Chicago market.
Sultan, I agree with you. I have no idea what this person is talking about.
Lotta words. No idea what they mean.
There are some objective folks in this thread who are forward thinking.
There are a few folks in this thread clinging awfully tight to MUBB winning an NCAA Tourney game in 8 seasons of the past 40 or so years. And that’s with the MUBB advantage of being in the Big East for almost 20 of those years.
And there are some folks fighting personal demons.
……………………
Creighton won an NCAA Tourney game 3 seasons since the 1970’s prior to joining the Big East. Of course they have done it 3 times since, (MUBB zero) I don’t see much whining about Creighton in the Big East. This is really the best example here.
Thank goodness for former long time Midwest Collegiate Conference Xavier.
Providence has won a game in the NCAA Tourney in 4 seasons in the past 35 plus years.
Seton Hall has won an NCAA Tourney game in 3 seasons in the past 30 or so years.
St. John’s has won an NCAA Tourney game about 5 times in the past 35 years.
DePaul has made 2 or so NCAA tourney appearances in almost 30 years.
Georgetown has won an NCAA Tourney game in about 4 of the past 25 seasons.
………….
Perhaps a proposed MUBB conference can be:
MUBB
UNC
Duke
Kentucky
UCLA
Kansas
The conference can be called the Marquette Six.
They'd tease you a lot less if you'd stop defending St. Louis like it was your only child on its first day of 4k.
Georgetown would jump at an ACC invite IMO.
I didn’t even mention St. Louis the place, or Saint Louis the school. The recent sub topic was St. Thomas.
I think the people who did mention those schools or geographies are the ones telling on themselves. I talk about a lot of places, schools topics etc on the board. Funny how just one place and school stirs up the same tiny percentage of frequent posters. That’s on them not me. I’m not going to change the way I post. I don’t need to put down Milwaukee or Chicago or other universities to lift myself up.
Those small percentage of people that do most of the posting want two things:
1) To be part of the tribe.
2) Have a scapegoated target.
I’m not really into that. Provincial parochialism isn’t my thing.
Objectivity is objectivity. Facts are facts.
As for the post, I do think its wishful thinking for the Twin Cities columnist for such a short turnaround time. I’d never say never down the road a bit. Each example is looked at objectively with an open mind without tribalism and scapegoating for other reasons.
Of course they would. They would not be the worst team in the league then. ::)LOL.
Okay? They're pushing your buttons, and you're letting them.
Also, St. Louis sucks. BBQ, pizza, Cardinals, Greatest Show on Turf was overrated, etc. ;D
Loving the rancor created by an idea as silly as St. Thomas joining the Big East 😂
“Adding a key market” is maybe the most overrated idea in conference expansion. I’m sorry, but nobody cares about St. Thomas in the twin cities. You’d be capturing a miniscule part of that market.
Right…that Emerson College would be the far better expansion option. Their athletics programs have been ready to make the jump from D3 for years!
Dodds used to talk about adding Boston University to capture the Boston market. That should tell you something...multiple things actually.
Say it Zig
Nah nah nah nah nah nah NAH ArchMan!
*Biff*
*bam*
*SLU*
Loving the rancor created by an idea as silly as St. Thomas joining the Big East 😂
“Adding a key market” is maybe the most overrated idea in conference expansion. I’m sorry, but nobody cares about St. Thomas in the twin cities. You’d be capturing a miniscule part of that market.
I completely agree but just to play devils advocate, couldn't one theorize that if big teams came in locals will tune in and root for the local team? Sort of a "if you build it they will come" mindset?
Nah nah nah nah nah nah NAH ArchMan!
*Biff*
*bam*
*SLU*
That's the kind of thinking that got Fordham invited to the A10, which has largely been bad.
I completely agree but just to play devils advocate, couldn't one theorize that if big teams came in locals will tune in and root for the local team? Sort of a "if you build it they will come" mindset?
When they joined originally was there any momentum behind them? And outside of a couple years did the A10 really have enough good teams to achieve that goal of getting local eyes on the program?
Again just playing a bit of devils advocate.
Some gifts are timeless.
Anyway you cut it, St. Louis won’t be in the Big East. Doesn’t matter what you think of Notre Dame, Wisconsin or whoever. They bring nothing to the table when it comes to any possible Big East expansion.I mean, this is just not true. With it, SLU brings a top 25 TV market, and one of the best and fastest growing recruiting bases in the country.
Great threadSome of Scoop's finest work.
Heard the Tommies are hiring Tommy so he can get another team into the Big East all by himself.Nice.
I mean, this is just not true. With it, SLU brings a top 25 TV market, and one of the best and fastest growing recruiting bases in the country.
I'd agree that these on their own aren't enough for them to get a BE invite, but let's not pretend it's nothing.
I mean, this is just not true. With it, SLU brings a top 25 TV market, and one of the best and fastest growing recruiting bases in the country.
I'd agree that these on their own aren't enough for them to get a BE invite, but let's not pretend it's nothing.
I’m sure tv networks are advising the Big East to expand and include the coveted St. Louis market.
The Big East is in a great spot. A competitive, basketball-oriented conference with a fan-friendly round robin schedule and a historic conference tournament in the most famous basketball arena in history.
Perhaps SLU and Dayton are the next most logical fits for the conference. But why change what’s already working? It only makes sense to expand if a program truly moves the needle, e.g. Gonzaga.
Correct
If markets matter for the conference then Nashville is better than St. Louis and North Carolina, too.
But brand is far more important than markets unless you’re getting into NYC (done), Chicago (done) or LA
Are we really? I mean till Wednesday I'm sure DePaul alumni had no idea they still had a basketball team it's why I actually think LUC wouldn't be a horrible addition (if the new guy can get back to stable success)
Are we really? I mean till Wednesday I'm sure DePaul alumni had no idea they still had a basketball team it's why I actually think LUC wouldn't be a horrible addition (if the new guy can get back to stable success)
The Big East doesn't "need" any new teams. The league is like a billionaire; he or she doesn't need any new investments, but if a great one comes along at the right time, sure, he or she will buy it.
So if Gonzaga or Notre Dame wants in, the Big East can say, "Come on down!" Anyone else ... move along, pal. It's pretty simple, really.
The Big East is in a great spot. A competitive, basketball-oriented conference with a fan-friendly round robin schedule and a historic conference tournament in the most famous basketball arena in history.
Perhaps SLU and Dayton are the next most logical fits for the conference. But why change what’s already working? It only makes sense to expand if a program truly moves the needle, e.g. Gonzaga.
Or Notre Dame since they do their own thing anyway.
Or maybe a very very select few G5 teams who go the UConn route.
ABD
The Big Ten didn’t add Rutgers because they might be good. They added them because there are a lot of alumni in NYC/Jersey. There are a lot of alumni in Chicago from the Big East.
I think the Rutgers addition had to do with the BTN and what the revenue would be with getting to put BTN onto cable in New York homes. I’m not sure that benefit still exists.
Due to the BTN, the adding a team because of the market made more sense than it would for the Big East.
The Big Ten didn’t add Rutgers because they might be good. They added them because there are a lot of alumni in NYC/Jersey. There are a lot of alumni in Chicago from the Big East.
UConn was a nice surprise and a great addition. Would love to see ND back and perhaps there’s a sliver of possibility for that in the future. The Syracuses of the world seem extremely unlikely.Syracuse was my thought, in addition to Pitt and Boston College. Unlikely now, but the next major moves in college football would leave those programs out of the sec and big 10/16. Probably 10 years away from it being a possibility but it's out there.
I’m sure tv networks are advising the Big East to expand and include the coveted St. Louis market.Rico knows TV
Wait folks, we may have something here with St. Thomas. Would it not be worth admitting them to the Big East just to witness the Dayton meltdown?
Maybe I am wrong, but I can't imagine that Gonzaga would bring enough eyeballs to warrant a large enough media contract where it works out for everyone. And then if they fade, they are stuck with a member that isn't bringing much value.
Speaking of silly rumors…
Saw a tweet from someone that said bring Marquette along with Gonzaga to the Big 12, lol.
Wouldn’t that be something?
Speaking of silly rumors…Shaka has unfinished business in the Big XII. ;D
Saw a tweet from someone that said bring Marquette along with Gonzaga to the Big 12, lol.
Wouldn’t that be something?
Speaking of silly rumors…
Saw a tweet from someone that said bring Marquette along with Gonzaga to the Big 12, lol.
Wouldn’t that be something?
Don't get me wrong, I love playing in the Big East, but the Big XII is year in and year out the best college hoops conference, even without Oklahoma and Texas (Houston, Cincy, and BYU each have good hoops history coming in).
MU Admin would have to at least think about it.
Yall are crazy if you think MU would turn down an invite from the B12 (or SEC/B1G). Only way they would is if they offered a ridiculously low cut of the pie.
Why would they take it? The marginal revenue for a non-football school in one of those conferences would be minimal. And I don’t think anyone would want to trade places with Syracuse right now
If the number was minimal, they wouldn't take it. The amount we get from our current contract with fox is a rounding error for those schools. If they wanted to pay (I don't believe they do), they could have any basketball only school they wanted.
It's fine to enjoy and appreciate our current situation and to want it to continue as fan. But we have to be honest about the Big East's place in the hierarchy of College Athletics.
If the number was minimal, they wouldn't take it. The amount we get from our current contract with fox is a rounding error for those schools. If they wanted to pay (I don't believe they do), they could have any basketball only school they wanted.
It's fine to enjoy and appreciate our current situation and to want it to continue as fan. But we have to be honest about the Big East's place in the hierarchy of College Athletics.
Once Few retires I have my doubts about Gonzaga's success.
I don't get this sentiment. There is just no way you go to 25 straight NCAA tournaments and are one of the best programs and brands in the game for more than a decade without that having lasting effects on the future of your program. That's how it has always worked for every great/good program (Marquette included) - one coach raised the team up for so long it also raised trajectory of the future of that program.
If the number was minimal, they wouldn't take it. The amount we get from our current contract with fox is a rounding error for those schools. If they wanted to pay (I don't believe they do), they could have any basketball only school they wanted.
It's fine to enjoy and appreciate our current situation and to want it to continue as fan. But we have to be honest about the Big East's place in the hierarchy of College Athletics.
Yall are crazy if you think MU would turn down an invite from the B12 (or SEC/B1G). Only way they would is if they offered a ridiculously low cut of the pie.
I don't get this sentiment. There is just no way you go to 25 straight NCAA tournaments and are one of the best programs and brands in the game for more than a decade without that having lasting effects on the future of your program. That's how it has always worked for every great/good program (Marquette included) - one coach raised the team up for so long it also raised trajectory of the future of that program.
I'm not sure about this. I mean, if they wanted to overpay using the entire TV deal that is powered by football, sure. But why would they take money away from the football schools to pay a basketball-only? I don't think the Big East basketball contract is off by much of the non-SEC/B1G schools.I think your numbers are off some, the BIG XII distributed $43M (under the old TV deal, projected to go up $6-$10M) while the ACC was about the $36M (no change till 2036). *
The CBS article estimates about 20% of a TV rights value comes from basketball. The BigXII's brand new rights deal is worth $31.66 million per school a year. That comes out to $6.3 million for the basketball side of things. I believe the Big East's is $4.6 million and is set to be renegotiated next year. A modest increase to that contract, esp with 10 years of inflation, likely puts our next deal close. The Pac-12/10/? current deal nets them a little over $20 million a year and the new deal is expected to be around the Big 12's range. The ACC's is $32 million/school and isn't up for renegotiation till (lol) 2036.
Now the SEC and B1G are a different animal. They were both around $45-55 million before their new rights agreements raised that to around $70-75 million per school. Using the 20% number that increases the basketball contract value from $10 million to $15 million (20% is debatable, but seems unlikely to be higher - maybe its 25% but if anything I would guess industry people would put it lower).
I don't get this sentiment. There is just no way you go to 25 straight NCAA tournaments and are one of the best programs and brands in the game for more than a decade without that having lasting effects on the future of your program. That's how it has always worked for every great/good program (Marquette included) - one coach raised the team up for so long it also raised trajectory of the future of that program.
Villanova says hello
You're saying this after one year?! Jay Wright didn't even win Nova's its first championship. They'll be fine, but yeah it's hard to follow a legend.
Their roster isn’t all that different than last year when they went to the Final Four.
Neptune looks completely inept
I think your numbers are off some, the BIG XII distributed $43M (under the old TV deal, projected to go up $6-$10M) while the ACC was about the $36M (no change till 2036). *
The PAC12/10 is in a weird spot, they were have to had a deal in place by now. I don't know if they will get close to the Big XII or more importantly stay intact.
* All-In revenue , not TV only.
Their roster isn’t all that different than last year when they went to the Final Four.
Neptune looks completely inept
Yeah, and they'll move on if he doesn't show something by year 3. That doesn't mean the entire program has sunk.
You're saying this after one year?! Jay Wright didn't even win Nova's its first championship. They'll be fine, but yeah it's hard to follow a legend.
I don't think Gonzaga is ever going to happen.
I'd love to add BC. They have a past with the Big East, and fit the profile of our schools and would add a school in Massachusetts, which we don't have. Even though they generally suck at sports, it would be a net positive for the conference. Their football team could easily go independent like UConn.
I don't think Gonzaga is ever going to happen.
I'd love to add BC. They have a past with the Big East, and fit the profile of our schools and would add a school in Massachusetts, which we don't have. Even though they generally suck at sports, it would be a net positive for the conference. Their football team could easily go independent like UConn.
But why would they do that? If UConn were in the ACC, they would have never joined the BE. If the ACC invites them tomorrow, they'd be out the door in a nanosecond.
Louisville is finding it's hard to follow the guy who followed a legend.
Georgetown is finding it's hard to follow the son of legend who followed the guy who followed a legend--even if you hire a legend in his own right.
And don't get me started on DePaul or UCLA.
You might call him "Ineptune"
I don't get this sentiment. There is just no way you go to 25 straight NCAA tournaments and are one of the best programs and brands in the game for more than a decade without that having lasting effects on the future of your program. That's how it has always worked for every great/good program (Marquette included) - one coach raised the team up for so long it also raised trajectory of the future of that program.Gonzaga has been good for a sustained period of time, and I think they'll continue that "good" level of going to the NCAAs most years. However, I think their recent "great" level of getting #1 seeds has coincided with a lot of the Pac-12 being down. If some of the other west coast programs (USC, UCLA, Arizona, Washington, etc.) can get back to previous levels, I think that (along with Few's nearing retirement) is going to impact their ability to stay at their recent "great" level.
Louisville is finding it's hard to follow the guy who followed a legend.
Georgetown is finding it's hard to follow the son of legend who followed the guy who followed a legend--even if you hire a legend in his own right.
And don't get me started on DePaul or UCLA.
Are we trying to argue that no program is worth adding if they may not be as great as their program's literal peak? Seems a bit dismissive coming from Marquette fans who've had their own problems even getting close to McGuire's era, much less the early aughts and early 2010s - but I dont think we would say our program is not worth value even 10 years past our last NCAA win.
Are we trying to argue that no program is worth adding if they may not be as great as their program's literal peak? Seems a bit dismissive coming from Marquette fans who've had their own problems even getting close to McGuire's era, much less the early aughts and early 2010s - but I dont think we would say our program is not worth value even 10 years past our last NCAA win.
Frame the question differently. Name a program that:
- Could even remotely be considered available
- Isn't at their peak
- You want in the Big East
If the answer were obvious, I think the conference would have expanded already.
You might call him "Ineptune"i’d like to call you a dweeb, but “Ineptune”…that’s pretty funny.
Laughter? No? I'll see myself out...
Frame the question differently. Name a program that:
- Could even remotely be considered available
- Isn't at their peak
- You want in the Big East
If the answer were obvious, I think the conference would have expanded already.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing in the Big East, but the Big XII is year in and year out the best college hoops conference, even without Oklahoma and Texas (Houston, Cincy, and BYU each have good hoops history coming in).I think you're lost
MU Admin would have to at least think about it.
What is its place? Is our contract worth more than say the MAC football contract? Or AAC? Or financially are we actually only comparable to BBall only and non TV football conferences?
I think you're first question is the most important one when talking about potential conference realignment. My personal take:
Tier 1: Big 10 and SEC. They are and for the forseeable future will always be the class of college athletics. They are the apex predators.
Tier 2: Big 12. It was unclear for a while, but I think the Big 12 has emerged as the clear best of the rest. I also think they will be safe no matter what the B1G and SEC decide to do. The Big 12 will never catch Tier 1, but I don't think they will ever be left behind.
Tier 3: Big East, ACC, and PAC 12. These groups are ultimately at the mercy of Tier 1. Tier 1 could decide to invite them into the new world order as is which would move them to Tier 2, they could strip them for parts, or they could leave them behind. Ultimately, I think the Big East is actually the best positioned of the three. I think there's a real danger for the ACC and P12 that they will eventually be stripped of their best programs because they still have some quality football programs to give. I think Tier 1 will invite more basketball programs than football programs and the Big East will have the advantage of not being burdened with football programs who are now doomed to FCS level status.
Tier 4: MVC, AAC, A10, MWC, WCC, maybe others. I think their basketball programs will be safe but it's less certain than Tier 3 and they'll never be at Tier 3's level.
Tier 5: Everyone Else
This is the real reason why I think any Big East school would jump at at B1G/SEC/B12 offer, stability...along with more money.
I think you're first question is the most important one when talking about potential conference realignment. My personal take:
Tier 1: Big 10 and SEC. They are and for the forseeable future will always be the class of college athletics. They are the apex predators.
Tier 2: Big 12. It was unclear for a while, but I think the Big 12 has emerged as the clear best of the rest. I also think they will be safe no matter what the B1G and SEC decide to do. The Big 12 will never catch Tier 1, but I don't think they will ever be left behind.
Tier 3: Big East, ACC, and PAC 12. These groups are ultimately at the mercy of Tier 1. Tier 1 could decide to invite them into the new world order as is which would move them to Tier 2, they could strip them for parts, or they could leave them behind. Ultimately, I think the Big East is actually the best positioned of the three. I think there's a real danger for the ACC and P12 that they will eventually be stripped of their best programs because they still have some quality football programs to give. I think Tier 1 will invite more basketball programs than football programs and the Big East will have the advantage of not being burdened with football programs who are now doomed to FCS level status.
Tier 4: MVC, AAC, A10, MWC, WCC, maybe others. I think their basketball programs will be safe but it's less certain than Tier 3 and they'll never be at Tier 3's level.
Tier 5: Everyone Else
This is the real reason why I think any Big East school would jump at at B1G/SEC/B12 offer, stability...along with more money.
Their roster isn’t all that different than last year when they went to the Final Four.
Neptune looks completely inept
This all makes sense except the last paragraph. The B10 and SEC aren’t taking any basketball only schools (at least not at a price that would actually make it worthwhile for a Big East school to jump) and even if they did, those programs would immediately be at the bottom at the heap (such as BC, Cuse, Pitt) and at the whim of the football schools a la the 2010 Big East… highly unstable. Football will continue to consolidate and the Big East will continue to ride sidecar for basketball. But the ACC and PAC 12 are in real danger.I agreed with the analysis too. And you are right about the ACC and PAC12. I think the ACC will continue is some form but when FSU, Miami, UNC and Clemson leave it will look closer to the old AAC than a P5 conference. As for the PAC12, I think total dissolution is possible. (OR, WA, AZ, AZ ST, UT and CO leaving)
I think you're first question is the most important one when talking about potential conference realignment. My personal take:I agree with this analysis
Tier 1: Big 10 and SEC. They are and for the forseeable future will always be the class of college athletics. They are the apex predators.
Tier 2: Big 12. It was unclear for a while, but I think the Big 12 has emerged as the clear best of the rest. I also think they will be safe no matter what the B1G and SEC decide to do. The Big 12 will never catch Tier 1, but I don't think they will ever be left behind.
Tier 3: Big East, ACC, and PAC 12. These groups are ultimately at the mercy of Tier 1. Tier 1 could decide to invite them into the new world order as is which would move them to Tier 2, they could strip them for parts, or they could leave them behind. Ultimately, I think the Big East is actually the best positioned of the three. I think there's a real danger for the ACC and P12 that they will eventually be stripped of their best programs because they still have some quality football programs to give. I think Tier 1 will invite more basketball programs than football programs and the Big East will have the advantage of not being burdened with football programs who are now doomed to FCS level status.
Tier 4: MVC, AAC, A10, MWC, WCC, maybe others. I think their basketball programs will be safe but it's less certain than Tier 3 and they'll never be at Tier 3's level.
Tier 5: Everyone Else
This is the real reason why I think any Big East school would jump at at B1G/SEC/B12 offer, stability...along with more money.
I think you're first question is the most important one when talking about potential conference realignment. My personal take:
Tier 1: Big 10 and SEC. They are and for the forseeable future will always be the class of college athletics. They are the apex predators.
Tier 2: Big 12. It was unclear for a while, but I think the Big 12 has emerged as the clear best of the rest. I also think they will be safe no matter what the B1G and SEC decide to do. The Big 12 will never catch Tier 1, but I don't think they will ever be left behind.
Tier 3: Big East, ACC, and PAC 12. These groups are ultimately at the mercy of Tier 1. Tier 1 could decide to invite them into the new world order as is which would move them to Tier 2, they could strip them for parts, or they could leave them behind. Ultimately, I think the Big East is actually the best positioned of the three. I think there's a real danger for the ACC and P12 that they will eventually be stripped of their best programs because they still have some quality football programs to give. I think Tier 1 will invite more basketball programs than football programs and the Big East will have the advantage of not being burdened with football programs who are now doomed to FCS level status.
Tier 4: MVC, AAC, A10, MWC, WCC, maybe others. I think their basketball programs will be safe but it's less certain than Tier 3 and they'll never be at Tier 3's level.
Tier 5: Everyone Else
This is the real reason why I think any Big East school would jump at at B1G/SEC/B12 offer, stability...along with more money.
Louisville is finding it's hard to follow the guy who followed a legend.
Georgetown is finding it's hard to follow the son of legend who followed the guy who followed a legend--even if you hire a legend in his own right.
And don't get me started on DePaul or UCLA.
Are you serious Clark?
Yea, totally the same except they lost the 2 time BE POY, lost a very reliable and experienced Jermaine Samuels, and they haven’t had an All BE senior in Moore all year until last week. Oh and their star freshman missed the first month plus of the season and has only been a starter for less than 10 games.
Listen, I don’t think Neptune has been good and he was an ehh hire from the start, but to pretend he has a FF roster that he’s turned into a sub 500 team is just not true at all
This is why I think a school like BC may actually join the Big East at some point. Even though the ACC is supposedly a superior conference right now.BC gets a lot of coin from the ACC that the BE can’t match.
BC gets a lot of coin from the ACC that the BE can’t match.
The most well-heeled athletic programs money can buy and nary a win to show for it.Yea, but the ACC locked up the massive Boston college football market. The SEC is still kicking itself for going after the Texas market and getting punked by the ACC in the Northeast.
Yea, but the ACC locked up the massive Boston college football market. The SEC is still kicking itself for going after the Texas market and getting punked by the ACC in the Northeast.
The most well-heeled athletic programs money can buy and nary a win to show for it.
To be fair, BC did have Flutie Flakes in the 80s.BC > TA&M
A couple of sites, one being Villanova's premium Scout site, are saying that there are discussions between the Big 12 and Villanova, St John's, and Uconn to join the Big 12 as basketball only schools. Most on the Villanova site indicate it is something VU would have to do if offered.
has anyone else heard this, does this rumor have "legs"? seems like an odd list of Big East Schools to go after. are they only focused on market size/media coverage?
It was posted on HLOH and on Daytons board (a Dayton poster used their board as a reference).
Idk how much truth there actually is. Probably depends on if you believe the Zags/B12 rumor as that'd be an indicator of the B12's basketball only direction.
I wonder how we would all react if the Big 12 invited MU to join along with 'Nova, UConn, etc.
It was posted on HLOH and on Daytons board (a Dayton poster used their board as a reference).
Idk how much truth there actually is. Probably depends on if you believe the Zags/B12 rumor as that'd be an indicator of the B12's basketball only direction.
I wonder how we would all react if the Big 12 invited MU to join along with 'Nova, UConn, etc.
A couple of sites, one being Villanova's premium Scout site, are saying that there are discussions between the Big 12 and Villanova, St John's, and Uconn to join the Big 12 as basketball only schools. Most on the Villanova site indicate it is something VU would have to do if offered.It's predatory leaking trying to get Marquette committed to joining the Big 12 out of fear of being left out. Marquette is the richest team in the Big East by far (even after 7 years of Wojo destroying our brand) and is the crown jewel that the Big 12 wants. We mesh with their footprint and will give them a Chicago/Milwaukee presence along with the prestige Marquette has in the NBA.
has anyone else heard this, does this rumor have "legs"? seems like an odd list of Big East Schools to go after. are they only focused on market size/media coverage?
I wonder how we would all react if the Big 12 invited MU to join along with 'Nova, UConn, etc.
It's predatory leaking trying to get Marquette committed to joining the Big 12 out of fear of being left out. Marquette is the richest team in the Big East by far (even after 7 years of Wojo destroying our brand) and is the crown jewel that the Big 12 wants. We mesh with their footprint and will give them a Chicago/Milwaukee presence along with the prestige Marquette has in the NBA.
SJU facilities are worse than many high schools and their brand is so dead as they can't even draw in the nation's largest media market. Laughable that they would mention them also.... clearly a ploy.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/richest-college-basketball-programs-america-210045624.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
has anyone else heard this, does this rumor have "legs"? seems like an odd list of Big East Schools to go after. are they only focused on market size/media coverage?
I wonder how we would all react if the Big 12 invited MU to join along with 'Nova, UConn, etc.
They have been discussing on the Boneyard (the UConn fan board) the last 2 weeks. Apparently the "comment" came off of some TCU fan on Twitter, some guy with 24 followers and in conjunction with the Gonzaga stuff.
There was also some discussion of a "rumor" of a Big East & Big 12 shared media deal. Both independent, but shared media-wise.
https://the-boneyard.com/threads/any-news-on-possible-expansion-for-the-big-east-anytime-soon.188048/
https://the-boneyard.com/threads/realignment.172852/page-61
If they do pull the trigger, we need to hope that we are included because all of those schools would say yes.
It's predatory leaking trying to get Marquette committed to joining the Big 12 out of fear of being left out. Marquette is the richest team in the Big East by far (even after 7 years of Wojo destroying our brand) and is the crown jewel that the Big 12 wants. We mesh with their footprint and will give them a Chicago/Milwaukee presence along with the prestige Marquette has in the NBA.
SJU facilities are worse than many high schools and their brand is so dead as they can't even draw in the nation's largest media market. Laughable that they would mention them also.... clearly a ploy.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/richest-college-basketball-programs-america-210045624.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
A couple of sites, one being Villanova's premium Scout site, are saying that there are discussions between the Big 12 and Villanova, St John's, and Uconn to join the Big 12 as basketball only schools. Most on the Villanova site indicate it is something VU would have to do if offered.
Funny how Duane hasn't posted much lately, but chimes in on a chit stirring topicEqually amazing how Marquette is annually top 10 to 15 every measure of the elite basketball programs from attendance, total revenues, NBA players, facilities, amount spent on basketball, etc., etc... so based on this you would think the board boobs would finally realize we are an extremely elite program that has a lot of leverage and desirability to negotiate from.
Equally amazing how Marquette is annually top 10 to 15 every measure of the elite basketball programs from attendance, total revenues, NBA players, facilities, amount spent on basketball, etc., etc... so based on this you would think the board boobs would finally realize we are an extremely elite program that has a lot of leverage and desirability to negotiate from.
Instead they poor mouth us at every turn with woe is me proclamations like we're St. Norbert's or St. Thomas instead of Marquette. NIT proclamations the first three years of the Shaka era reign supreme as we're the perceived runt at the litter in spite of a roster full of high major players and the nation's best facilities. If any of you worked for a publicly traded company and you were sent to negotiate for us the board of directors would call an emergency meeting and have you fired before you even got on the plane to save the company from a dumb deal. Marquette is playing from a hand of great strength instead of a hand of weakness... time we realize this. If conference realignment is driven by money then Marquette stands to benefit as we bring in a lot of it!
The "Power 5" is a misnomer... many of these basketball programs and even football programs stink. Stanford basketball, for example, draws close to 2,000 fans per game.
Don't believe me and think I'm ill informed? Then below is just a handful of links that all say the same thing... once again they all indicate we are a financial power in spite of having Wojo stinking it up the last seven years. Yes... gross football revenues are much larger however they also have many more expenses so it's not an apples to apples comparison. Further programs like Alabama and Georgia are outliers while most teams just make modest football revenues.
Marquette is rich, powerful and has a very high desirability to both coaches, recruits and conferences. It's ok to embrace this... it's a good thing! 8-)
Maybe with a higher board IQ we'll collectively laugh ourselves silly when a fake rumor indicate St. John's will be chosen before Marquette in any conference realignment. ;D
https://money.yahoo.com/richest-college-basketball-programs-america-210045624.html
https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/TopRevenue/Sports/Basketball/
https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/economy/schools-that-make-the-most-money-off-college-basketball/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/christinasettimi/2020/03/19/college-basketball-most-valuable-teams-ncaa-march-madness/?sh=52431c26285d
https://thegamehaus.com/college-basketball/most-valuable-college-basketball-programs-in-2021/2021/04/17/
It's all about market. Milwaukee is not New YorkSo based on that logic Notre Dame football in small and lowly South Bend, IN would get a much smaller tv contract than Rutgers in the tri-state area. ::)
So based on that logic Notre Dame football in small and lowly South Bend, IN would get a much smaller tv contract than Rutgers in the tri-state area. ::)
Philadelphia is closer to NYC than South Bend is to Chicago
Philadelphia is closer to NYC than South Bend is to Chicago
I’m a bit curious on the B12’s interest in that. Would the added inventory improve the TV contract for basketball more than the splitting of the pie of 3 teams?
Philadelphia is closer to NYC than South Bend is to Chicago
Do you not understand the history of the University of Notre Dame?Wait... so branding actually matters? I'm all confused now? I thought it was all about the gross amount of viewers in your market and that was the determining factor. With this said Manhattan, Fordham and Long Island will even be chosen for conference expansion before Marquette will be.
Anyway, I am not sure markets still matter like they used to. But they still matter to a point.
There are definitely legs to it. But it's just conversations at this point. I think people underestimate how often these types of conversations happen. FWIW, I've heard we've been mentioned in those conversations as well. I don't think the B12 is close to pulling the trigger yet. If they do pull the trigger, we need to hope that we are included because all of those schools would say yes.
This article was written 6 months ago but the B12 media is looking at Pac12 teams to poach. They also hinted that basketball may help their tv negotiations. I think they'll go with football schools unless they are really desparate.
Looks like ESPN will be looking for content.
I would rather stay with FOX. I think they have done a really good job with the product.
Anyway, I am beginning to think the remaining Pac 12 schools are screwed. I think the B12 acting boldly with expansion and being first out the gate renegotiating their rights was a smart move. Some of the rumors out there about Pac 12 partners are....really not good. I really think Oregon and Washington are not as valuable as some people thought.
I would rather stay with FOX. I think they have done a really good job with the product.
Is the Big East that much more stable than 2012-13? We just talked about Nova, STJ, and UCONN going to the Big 12. The conference is still one Power Football conference wanting basketball only schools from the Big East fundamentally changing.
I’m not sure if that’s any more likely than it was before. The Big East is certainly more established, but I think the risks to stability are still the same.
Yeah, if we wen't back to ESPN I'd likely have to subscribe to ESPN+ to get all the games. I'd prefer the FS1, FS2, CBS, FOX setup.
I would rather stay with FOX. I think they have done a really good job with the product.
I would rather stay with FOX. I think they have done a really good job with the product.
I can solve ESPN's content problem.
As the current Big East television contract expires, ESPN should offer the Big East more than FOX is offering.ESPN gets more content, and BE schools get more money. Both problems solved.
I would also note that since the current TV contract between FOX and the BE was negotiated in 2012-13, two important things have occurred. First, the addition of UCONN is extremely attractive to FOX ( and to ESPN I would presume). Second, the current iteration of the league has proven to be immeasurably more stable than in 2013 for a number of reasons ( not the least of which is the addition of UCONN virtually guaranteeing sellouts every year at MSG for the BET. And Nova's 2 Nattys sure doesn't hurt either).
You want to stick with cable when "advanced sports" are moving to sign BIG deals with Amazon (NFL) and Youtube (NBA).
Cable is bleeding out; let it die without us.
At least you're not demanding we get on broadcast TV more.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/044/247/297.png)
As an aside, how do some of our games end up on CBSSN? Does Fox sell those to them? Or does the Big East have a secondary deal with CBS?
Never say never, particularly with UCLA and USC making the Western Conference actually Western, but I do not see how it makes sense. Of course if there are buckets of money out there to be made, any school would have to at least listen. However, I doubt that there are. This does not seem to make much sense.
First, schools would have to consider an offer that would make them a great increase in money. However, no matter how good their basketball teams are, the bulk of the Big 12 money is going to come from football and they are not going to share any of it with non-football members. If what they were offered was only a modest increase, hooking up with football teams does not seem like a good idea. The Big East has the advantage right now of being what it was intended to be - a conference centered around men's basketball. Right now, the conference has most schools who fit this profile and who have more in common with each other than it has since it was founded.
I cannot imagine that UConn would be anxious to join as a basketball-only member when they actually do have a football team. As for why the Big 12 would want those particular schools, it does not matter if the schools in question are rich or poor or draw flies. The point is TV. Rutgers does not fit the geographic, academic, or athletic profile of the Big Ten. They are having one of their big years now. Those are few and far between and few people in the state of New Jersey are all fired up about the University of New Jersey. But thier presence means that every cable subscriber in NYC is paying money for the BTN regardless of whether they actually want it or care about Rutgers. So the fact that Marquette is supposedly one of the richest programs (which I take with a grain of salt, as you can do all kinds of tricks with accounting) that is irrelevant. The conference is not going to see the money anyway.
If it is on Amazon, will you still be able to turn it off in a huff?Fake News! One of my angry girl friends was upset and logged on as me! I thought the game was never in doubt! ;)
I think BC, Pitt, and Cuse have put themselves in a spot where they are one poaching attack on the ACC away from being relegated to the American, which would all but kill them as major college sports programs.
Cable is dying as the world is moving toward streaming. You sign up for a data service provider with a speed of at least 50 to 100 Mbps and you then find your own customized programming which may not even include live tv (i.e.: YouTube, Hulu, Xfinity, Amazon, Netflix, ATT, boutique providers, etc.). We're moving toward a la carte programming fast where each individual pays for only what they want and nothing more. The pre-set cable packages, of say 50 to 100 channels, will be the minority option within five years. Once this happens low ratings channels who traditionally survived on cable package fees in spite of low ratings (i.e.: CNN) will have to adapt or die.
With soooooo much programming out there to choose from (I can't come close to keeping up with all the shows/series people tell me to watch) the providers will fight to obtain and produce programming with inelastic demand and a loyal niche audience. Hence why there is a lot of value in paying for the rights to Big East basketball. Don't be surprised if someone like Amazon comes in and overpays for the rights to the Big East where each team gets 3x's as much as we got from the last seven year contract. They want more Amazon Prime Video Subscribers and the advertising revenues that come within the games as well.
Poo poo the financial revenues of Marquette all you want... they are very real and Marquette has a lot to offer and all the power brokers outside of MU scoop know this. Marquette will have a lot of opportunities available to us in this ever changing world as long as we continue to offer an excellent product.
Is it possible that in the future the media providers may offer separate deals for football and basketball rather than package them together as they are now?
If it is on Amazon, will you still be able to turn it off in a huff?
Will there be "media deals" in the future?
We have media deals now to get distribution? Do you need distribution in a streaming world? Anyone can spin up a website with a stream, and then you have all the distribution you need, just like that!
As I noted in the post above, everyone is thinking the switch from cable to streaming means the same business model transports over. Again, the current business model came because of cable. When cable goes away, so does the business model.
Yes, in the interim, the streaming platforms will overpay for content to stay relevant (but they will eventually die too). So the Big East will get a big payday from Netflix, Hulu, Facebook, Amazon, Youtube, Twitter, Clubhouse or someone like that. But, eventually, this will give way to everything going the route of their own stream without a media deal.
All good points. The world of entertainment is changing at lightening speeds and it behooves Marquette and the Big East to be innovative and forward thinking.
However, don’t use well-thought-out, backed points on this board. It will be met with no response, misdirections and/or negative gag reflex responses. 🤷♂️
Someone needs to tell the SEC, Big Ten and Big XII they screwed up their media rights deals
See Texas; they have the Longhorn network. They are very close to going off on their own.
Texas is closing down the Longhorn Network when it joins the SEC.
So good call.
Texas is closing down the Longhorn Network when it joins the SEC.
So good call.
The CONFERENCE did not screw up. But the marquee NAMES, Michigan, Alabama, Texas et. al will soon do better with their own streaming deals apart from the conference.
UCLA and USC joining the B1G are short-sighted. They are jumping in at the end of an era, not thinking forward.
Meaning you think such a poach would dissolve the ACC?
https://trojanswire.usatoday.com/2021/07/26/dont-laugh-at-the-longhorn-network-it-served-its-purpose-for-texas/
LOL. Did you even read this? This article states that the success of the Longhorn Network is that it leveraged Texas' move to the SEC. Not that independent schools streaming their own content is the future as you stated above.
So it pretty much did the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are suggesting.
Good call.
Did you read what I wrote? Conferences TV rights are now based on cable TV. Streaming is the future. And with new technology comes new business models.
Why do you always fight? Why don't you contribute to this discussion in a thoughtful way?
Are you posting from 2015 or something? Streaming isn't the future. Streaming is now. Pretty much all the current deals come with streaming options.
But your assertion above is that schools would have been better breaking off and streaming their own deals instead of joining conferences. You used Texas and the LHN as an example, saying they are "close to going off on their own."
But in actuality they are shutting down the LHN and joining the SEC next year! So even the school you use as an example is moving in the opposite direction as you are suggesting.
Because you constantly make assertions that are bogus, and when its shown to be bogus, shift the goalposts.
My thought is that you were wrong about the Longhorn Network and Texas going off on their own. Furthermore, the big schools seem to be perfectly happy to continue to align with one another in conferences and don't believe, as you stated above, that they are making mistake in doing so.
And if these points of evidence are the basis of your thesis, I would say you are mistaken and the current model isn't changing anytime soon.
We'll see how long this model lasts. Selling conference TV rights is asking people to pay for things they do not want. It worked in the cable world because the technology did not exist to allow you to only pay for only what you wanted to watch. Streaming now makes a la carte pricing, down to the show or game, a reality.You are not right about a la carte pricing.
And Texas did go off with the Longhorn network for 11 years. Now they are ending it and going into a superconference; you're assuming this is a good LONG TERM deal for them. If I'm right about a la carte pricing, Texas is making a big mistake.
You are not right about a la carte pricing.
The reason why college sports is such a valuable property is because schools are bundled into conferences and therefore draw huge audiences from multiple fanbases across large geographies. When you can bundle together the fanbases of Alabama and Florida and Tennessee, etc. you are reaching a mass audience and can charge a very large amount of money to advertisers (who love to reach large engaged audiences in live viewing environments). If each school is on their own, the number of viewers of their content is a tiny fraction of what it was, and the value of that audience to advertisers is diminished.
You are not right about a la carte pricing.
The reason why college sports is such a valuable property is because schools are bundled into conferences and therefore draw huge audiences from multiple fanbases across large geographies. When you can bundle together the fanbases of Alabama and Florida and Tennessee, etc. you are reaching a mass audience and can charge a very large amount of money to advertisers (who love to reach large engaged audiences in live viewing environments). If each school is on their own, the number of viewers of their content is a tiny fraction of what it was, and the value of that audience to advertisers is diminished.
I agree with your assessment, but Notre Dame football appears to be at the moment the exception. Full disclosure, I have not watched a college football game in years. The reason I don't watch is that no Football Team not in the P5 will ever have a chance at a National Title, which is why the NCAA Basketball tournament is truly a National tournament; even a little School like St. Peters has a chance. I am sure the greedy state schools will eventually wreck that too.
But Notre Dame makes significantly less on their football media deal then each B10 and SEC school makes on theirs.
And Cincinnati made the CFP just last year.
Huh?
Are we being picky? Cincinnati made the College Football Playoff at the end of the 2021 season. A team "not in the P5."
You are not right about a la carte pricing.
The reason why college sports is such a valuable property is because schools are bundled into conferences and therefore draw huge audiences from multiple fanbases across large geographies. When you can bundle together the fanbases of Alabama and Florida and Tennessee, etc. you are reaching a mass audience and can charge a very large amount of money to advertisers (who love to reach large engaged audiences in live viewing environments). If each school is on their own, the number of viewers of their content is a tiny fraction of what it was, and the value of that audience to advertisers is diminished.
A la carte pricing or smaller bundles have always been something the providers *could* have done. They didn't because they didn't have to. The delivery mechanism is changing quickly, but so far the model has not. The LHN may have worked at UT as a means to an end. A Golden Eagle Network would not be viable.
100% correct.
Golden Eagle network is not viable now. But I contend that is where everything is going.
It might be. But schools can adjust in the future. Conference affiliations aren't lifetime contracts.
I agree with your assessment, but Notre Dame football appears to be at the moment the exception. Full disclosure, I have not watched a college football game in years. The reason I don't watch is that no Football Team not in the P5 will ever have a chance at a National Title, which is why the NCAA Basketball tournament is truly a National tournament; even a little School like St. Peters has a chance. I am sure the greedy state schools and media buddies will eventually wreck that too.
I want Twitch-style streaming for CBB, with a variety of announcers that I can choose to watch cast the game live. The current streaming model is the same as cable tv, just on the internet.
Amazon is already streaming Thursday Night Football on Twitch. I'm looking forward to sports continued movement towards new media.
ACC in trouble?
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35762510/college-football-realignment-acc-big-money-battle
This makes more sense than a deal with the Big East
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/big-12-in-contact-with-arizona-arizona-state-colorado-utah-as-pac-12-media-rights-future-remains-uncertain/
It’s obviously just business, but I don’t see how the Big12 doesn’t take the opportunity to leave Colorado out in the cold.
ACC in trouble?
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35762510/college-football-realignment-acc-big-money-battle
UNC has a standing offer to join the SEC. When they decide to make that move it’s game over for the ACC. For now they continue to believe in their conference and its traditional rivals.
It baffles me that we are close to a world in which neither the flagship university of the largest state in the country nor the university with the closest ties to the biggest sporting apparel company are in a major conference.(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwGjh4h5qyjNjQd08oFDYFQ7PeeUPcYKo-3g&usqp=CAU)
The future PAC 12 of the Washington schools, the Oregon schools, Cal, Stanford, Boise, SDSU, Fresno, and Nevada is a little geographically spread out but is clearly a second or third tier league.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwGjh4h5qyjNjQd08oFDYFQ7PeeUPcYKo-3g&usqp=CAU)
https://youtu.be/K9cYcRotufULove the comment below that:
Love the comment below that:
This has something for everyone. It involves alchemy, terrorism, armageddon, space travel, the crossing of dimensions, and ice hockey, all performed by a polar bear. A+ 10/10
My schaefenfreude when then ACC disintegrates will be almost uncontainable. Cuse, Louisville, Pitt, BC… talk about sleeping in the bed you made…
They have a different one for each season. I think they retired the use of the terrorist bear a few seasons back. I’m fond of this one for blowing up Michigan State, Ohio State and Miami (OH) for some reason
I read an article over the weekend that made a case that the ACC could dissolve. The ESPN contracts doe not account for dissolution and the GoR is meaningless if the ACC goes away.
The ACC is an LLC (I believe) in North Carolina that only requires a majority of members to approve dissolving the entity. The author thought it entirely possible that the power schools are so upset about the financial arrangement, for the next 13 years, that blowing up the ACC is preferable. The shortfall compared to the Big10 & SEC could be $500-$600 million per school.
Schools likely to vote for ending the ACC are: FSU, Miami, Clemson, NC, Virginia, NCST, VT. Possible schools would be Duke, ND and UofL. I believe they need 8 votes.
I think there is a strong possibility that the ACC is going away. I don't know if that is good or bad for MU.
This has been my theory ever since it became clear that the B12 was going to emerge as the winner over the P12 and ACC. Whenever the B1G/SEC decide they are going to expand, they will take a combined 8+ ACC teams and those teams will vote to dissolve the ACC to end the GoR and exit fees, essentially making them free agents. The leftovers will need to decide if they reform the ACC with whatever is left in the AAC or will be free to be picked up by the Big East and AAC.
What a cluster. I hate it. I wish we could just keep things as-is.
What a cluster. I hate it. I wish we could just keep things as-is.
I'll top that. I wish things could go back to where they were several iterations ago.
Between these mega conferences, NIL, and free transfers it's going to be a lot harder for me to maintain interest in major college sports.
I'll top that. I wish things could go back to where they were several iterations ago.
Between these mega conferences, NIL, and free transfers it's going to be a lot harder for me to maintain interest in major college sports.
Me thinks you missed the scurviest of them all.
The Big East 2005-2013 was fun but I actually like the current setup better. I'm good. Let the football conferences do whatever they want.
I don't have a problem with NIL or the transfer portal, in theory. They may need tweaking.
The Big East 2005-2013 was fun but I actually like the current setup better. I'm good. Let the football conferences do whatever they want.
I don't have a problem with NIL or the transfer portal, in theory. They may need tweaking.
Agree completely. I'm really hoping we don't have football schools coming along and poaching basketball programs. I love this league's stability, balance, and schedule.
The Big East could get poached but I don't think they will. I think we won't lose any members. We may gain members which would be good for the health of the conference but could dilute the product a bit.
Realistically who could we gain though?
Dayton and SLU.
Realistically who could we gain though?
I could see a scenario where any number of teams like BC, Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, Wake Forest, Pitt could be on the outside looking in and needing a new home. Some of those are obviously more likely than others. Depending on how else the landscape shifts, I could see a situation where a UConn type deal with the Big East is more profitable for those schools than merging with the AAC.Throw them in with UConn, Memphis, and Houston and you have a really good basketball conference.
Throw them in with UConn, Memphis, and Houston and you have a really good basketball conference.Houston is going to the B12.
Throw them in with UConn, Memphis, and Houston and you have a really good basketball conference.
I could see a scenario where any number of teams like BC, Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, Wake Forest, Pitt could be on the outside looking in and needing a new home. Some of those are obviously more likely than others. Depending on how else the landscape shifts, I could see a situation where a UConn type deal with the Big East is more profitable for those schools than merging with the AAC.
Houston is spoken for in this scenario but otherwise yes, that's a possibility as well. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
For those pining for the old conferences, I think you may get your wish. I think eventually the B1G and SEC will eventually bloat to 24 teams each. They can then divide themselves into 4 divisions of 6 and effectively recreate old conferences. Imagine a B1G like:
PAC Division: USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Oregon, Washington
Midwest Division: Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Illinois
MI/IN/OH Division: Purdue, Notre Dame, Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State
Atlantic Division: Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, North Carolina, 2 of Duke/GT/NCST/VT
Coast to coast coverage...major rivalries still intact. Best of both worlds.
I'll top that. I wish things could go back to where they were several iterations ago.I agree. I find it’s a bummer that great rivalries, especially-so in football, have gone away, along with traditional bowl game match-ups.
Between these mega conferences, NIL, and free transfers it's going to be a lot harder for me to maintain interest in major college sports.
I'll top that. I wish things could go back to where they were several iterations ago.
Between these mega conferences, NIL, and free transfers it's going to be a lot harder for me to maintain interest in major college sports.
The ACC implosion could either be great for the Big East when they add (or re-add) these teams.
Or it could be awful if those ACC remnants poach Nova, etc. However, I think MU is well positioned to be on the right side of the cut line. Nova and UConn are obviously the most valuable pieces, but after that it's Marquette and X, then the big city schools (StJ, GTown, and DePaul). I would not want to be Providence, Seton Hall, Butler, or Creighton (though they have the fans/$$ to be attractive despite distance).
I do not agree with that list of most valuable teams. But I’d take it.
The Big East 2005-2013 was fun but I actually like the current setup better. I'm good. Let the football conferences do whatever they want.
I don't have a problem with NIL or the transfer portal, in theory. They may need tweaking.
Because students can’t make money?
Students can make money, but too many of them that are pulling in huge amounts of money are not students.
Students can make money, but too many of them that are pulling in huge amounts of money are not students.
Can people pulling in huge amounts of money not be students?
Can people pulling in huge amounts of money not be students?First, I am good with NIL. I think it is fair. Maybe some tweaks are in order but mostly all good with it.
First, I am good with NIL. I think it is fair. Maybe some tweaks are in order but mostly all good with it.
Let's be real about the difference of regular students making money and student athletes. Student athletes make money off the venue/platform provided by the schools. I said "f*ck 'em" a lot as a MU student and nobody would ever by my t-shirt.
If some student gets paid $100k by Microsoft to program while in school, that student will still be making money programing after they graduate or if they transfer from MU to Northern Colorado. No one will give a damn about buying a TK shirt once he's no longer on the platform MU basketball provides.
There are some correlations between making money as an athlete and as a regular student, but there are some significant differences. But it's not enough for me to oppose NIIL.
They could be, but you know as well as I do that many of them are not.
There really is no control - should have phased in stages maybe with a “salary cap” concept per team. Who knows
That is clearly where we are headed. Legally, ethically and common sense dictates that outcome.
Really can't do that without making them employees and having a CBA in place.
That is clearly where we are headed. Legally, ethically and common sense dictates that outcome.
That is clearly where we are headed. Legally, ethically and common sense dictates that outcome.
Unless, of course, the athletes don't want to be in a union. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure I agree that law, ethics or common sense dictate that outcome. If the athletes want a union, all three might be true. If the athletes don't want a union, all three might be incorrect.Fair enough. That is true but every other professional sport has chosen to unionize. But college sports may choose not to.
The reality is that college conferences have never been static. Check the wiki page of pretty much any conference and you'll see charts that show all of the various members that have joined and left (and sometimes rejoined) conferences over the years--some of which are pretty wild in retrospect. Sure, some conferences have had more core stability but there is a ton of fluidity when you zoom out a few years.
Some schools inevitably get left behind, others take advantage of moving up a rung on the ladder, and some realize that maybe the grass isn't always greener. The main thing is staying well-positioned so you are ready the next time the winds of change blow. And enjoy the ride in the meantime.
In the overall scheme of things, the major conference realignments have been a relatively recent phenomenon, and I don't see them as a positive from a spectator's perspective.I agree, but until viewership and money falls off our opinion seems irrelevant to university presidents.
I go back a long way. From the 50's when I first was aware of college sports until the mid 90's, the Big Ten (which is what I followed most closely) had the same 10 teams. There were great rivalries that were renewed almost every year. The winner of the football championship went to the Rose Bowl and the winner in basketball went to the NCAA tournament. The other major conferences were also stable, and each had storied rivalries like USC-UCLA in the Pac 8, Nebraska-Oklahoma in the Big 8, Texas-Arkansas in the SWC, Alabama-Tennessee in the SEC, etc.
In the overall scheme of things, the major conference realignments have been a relatively recent phenomenon, and I don't see them as a positive from a spectator's perspective.
Really can't do that without making them employees and having a CBA in place.
By relatively recent, you mean thirty years - an entire generation - then yes. I could even go back further because the "Pac 8" stopped being called that in the late 70s.
They went from the PAC 8 to the PAC 10 in the 70s when the Arizona schools joined. So there were about 50 years with the only change being adding those two teams.
Similar to the Big 10 which went over 50 years with just the addition of Penn State in 1990
I enjoyed the stability and tradition of those years much more than the volatility of the last 10-15 that have created unwieldy conferences and destroyed traditional rivalries.
You guys all are missing the opportunity.
When the SEC comes calling for North Carolina, Clemson, Florida State and Miami, the ACC will implode.
Virginia and the Green Scum will end up in the Big 10.
As I said before, Val needs to put on her party dress and head to Durham, NC and spend some time with Duke. Then she needs to go across the state and visit Winston-Salem and Wake Forest. Neither are football schools with anything more than a marginally discernable heartbeat. Their basketball would fit in well with the Big East and make us a true beast of a conference.
The rest of the ACC will end up in the AAC.
BC? Pass. They were the first ones to jump ship in 2003. No NCAA bids since 2009.
Let them struggle.
You are only looking at two conferences though, but the landscape of all of college sports has been in flux since the early 1990s. The Big Ten, SEC and ACC all added teams. The SWC fell apart and helped to form the Big 12. The Big East added football. Marquette was a member of three conferences in less than a decade!
I think you are engaging in a bit of nostalgia because in reality, this stuff has been in constant flux for much longer than its been stable.
I agree about the nostalgia, but the changes in the last 15-20 years have been much more frequent and dramatic than the previous 50.
This is really the next domino to fall. And because getting out of the Grant of Rights probably means dissolving the conference, it makes poaching the remnants a lot easier.
Thinking about the teams in the ACC that might be available leads me to three categories:
1. Highly Valuable Football Schools / Big Name State Universities: UNC, Virginia, Florida St, Miami, Clemson
2. See above, but a step down in value: Louisville, NC State, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech (they're almost the top tier simply because Atlanta = $$$)
3. Regional private(ish) schools: Syracuse, Duke, Wake Forest, Boston College
4. The Outlier: Notre Dame
Group 1 and Group 2 will be the schools that vote to dissolve to pursue the SEC or Big10. It's possible some of Group 2 don't make the initial cut, if each conference takes 4, 2 of those will be left out. Notre Dame might also be one of those, but if they desire to remain football independent that won't happen.
Whatever is left is likely to find a home in the Big East (Duke, Wake, BC, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Cuse make a lot of sense) or a more "national" conference like the Big 12 (Louisville, Virginia Tech, maybe Pitt, NC State all would fit) or AAC (no one wants this).
The more I think about it the more I love this possibility.
I doubt this will happen. Why would football schools join a non-football conference when the Big 12 would be so much more attractive.
Why do you think the B12 would be interested in Duke, Wake, BC or Syracuse?
Duke and Syracuse are not much different than Kansas and basketball is what the league at present is known for. Do you think the Big East would take BC and Wake?
The Big 12 Commish said some interesting things not too long ago. Mentioned he wanted to rethink how they sell their media rights and that they should be selling basketball and football rights separately. I'm not sure what that means practically, but am curious about the potential implications
Really can't do that without making them employees and having a CBA in place.
Do the networks and streamers want to buy them separately?
Actually pretty easy to do in principle. Treat them like Graduate student TAs, who agree to accept a stipend (and scholarship) under agreement that they do not do any outside work.
Set an NCAA wide cap on the stipend.
Thinking about the teams in the ACC that might be available leads me to three categories:
1. Highly Valuable Football Schools / Big Name State Universities: UNC, Virginia, Florida St, Miami, Clemson
2. See above, but a step down in value: Louisville, NC State, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech (they're almost the top tier simply because Atlanta = $$$)
3. Regional private(ish) schools: Syracuse, Duke, Wake Forest, Boston College
4. The Outlier: Notre Dame
Group 1 and Group 2 will be the schools that vote to dissolve to pursue the SEC or Big10. It's possible some of Group 2 don't make the initial cut, if each conference takes 4, 2 of those will be left out. Notre Dame might also be one of those, but if they desire to remain football independent that won't happen.
Whatever is left is likely to find a home in the Big East (Duke, Wake, BC, Notre Dame, Pitt, and Cuse make a lot of sense) or a more "national" conference like the Big 12 (Louisville, Virginia Tech, maybe Pitt, NC State all would fit) or AAC (no one wants this).
The more I think about it the more I love this possibility.
The Big East at ten years. Time flies but this is an interesting coaches' perspective when things seemed bleak at the start (and MU was in the crapper). Unbelievable job by Val and her staff.
https://www.bigeast.com/news/2023/3/7/mens-basketball-new-big-east-at-10-years-mission-accomplished.aspx
Brother Save OD:
Interesting breakdown, so please indulge me as I put my spin on it:
1) The Green Slime (Notre Dame) is not an outlier. They're going to learn really quick that the only way the Irish are able to get 12 annual football opponents is by fully joining a conference. Period. Hello, Big 10.
2) For rivalry, television and name recognition, the SEC will want North Carolina, Clemson, Florida State and Miami. North Carolina is like Kentucky, an occasionally good football name but a major basketball power. Imagine UK and North Carolina playing twice a year. You don't think that has ratings power? Florida State, Miami and current SEC Gator, UF, would make a nice rivalry triangle while Clemson, South Carolina and North Carolina will be fun to watch in football and in basketball. Plus, I can't imagine the SEC wanting a TV interloper to poach Miami and Florida State.
3) Duke and Wake are the Vanderbilts of the ACC. The SEC doesn't want any more of THAT! Vandy is an SEC legacy gives them credibility but would never be allowed today. Duke and Wake would give them low TV ratings. For these two schools, realignment will create the same cross-roads UConn faced: let your failing football program drive some crazy vision of revenue or do the right thing and join the Big East.
4) The Big Ten and SEC will fight for Virginia but it just means more to the Big Ten, especially with Notre Dame joining them. As much as Virginia fashions itself as a southern school, it fits in far better with the BIG than it does with most SEC institutions. Plus, the BIG needs the Virginia TV market more than the SEC does.
5) Everyone else in layers 2 and 3 will be driven by football. Most, including Georgia Tech, Boston College and Syracuse, hang on to a long-distant football tradition that for the most part harks back to a more quaint time. Louisville has been struggling to be a big-time football power and will go to the AAC or Big 12 in hopes of maintaining it.
All this said, with the possible exception of Duke and Wake, football will be the driver in realignment. Duke and Wake, divorced from a big-time football contract (I can't see anyone picking them up who has a wonderfully large football agreement) will do a UConn and focus on basketball.
Brother Save OD:
Interesting breakdown, so please indulge me as I put my spin on it:
1) The Green Slime (Notre Dame) is not an outlier. They're going to learn really quick that the only way the Irish are able to get 12 annual football opponents is by fully joining a conference. Period. Hello, Big 10.
2) For rivalry, television and name recognition, the SEC will want North Carolina, Clemson, Florida State and Miami. North Carolina is like Kentucky, an occasionally good football name but a major basketball power. Imagine UK and North Carolina playing twice a year. You don't think that has ratings power? Florida State, Miami and current SEC Gator, UF, would make a nice rivalry triangle while Clemson, South Carolina and North Carolina will be fun to watch in football and in basketball. Plus, I can't imagine the SEC wanting a TV interloper to poach Miami and Florida State.
3) Duke and Wake are the Vanderbilts of the ACC. The SEC doesn't want any more of THAT! Vandy is an SEC legacy gives them credibility but would never be allowed today. Duke and Wake would give them low TV ratings. For these two schools, realignment will create the same cross-roads UConn faced: let your failing football program drive some crazy vision of revenue or do the right thing and join the Big East.
4) The Big Ten and SEC will fight for Virginia but it just means more to the Big Ten, especially with Notre Dame joining them. As much as Virginia fashions itself as a southern school, it fits in far better with the BIG than it does with most SEC institutions. Plus, the BIG needs the Virginia TV market more than the SEC does.
5) Everyone else in layers 2 and 3 will be driven by football. Most, including Georgia Tech, Boston College and Syracuse, hang on to a long-distant football tradition that for the most part harks back to a more quaint time. Louisville has been struggling to be a big-time football power and will go to the AAC or Big 12 in hopes of maintaining it.
All this said, with the possible exception of Duke and Wake, football will be the driver in realignment. Duke and Wake, divorced from a big-time football contract (I can't see anyone picking them up who has a wonderfully large football agreement) will do a UConn and focus on basketball.
https://twitter.com/MHver3/status/1633301652366147584?s=20 (https://twitter.com/MHver3/status/1633301652366147584?s=20)
https://twitter.com/MHver3/status/1633301652366147584?s=20 (https://twitter.com/MHver3/status/1633301652366147584?s=20)
4 days ago that dude tweeted that Georgetown and Nova were deep in talks to join the B12. Now today he's saying "Georgetown would have been a shoe-in in 20 years ago" and three other schools are in. I think this guy volume tweets what he hears through telephone game and hopes something sticks.
Doesn't sound promising though.
I also think this is likely, but I won't believe it until I see it.
The problem is that of the teams you listed there aren't enough votes to blow up the ACC. Notre Dame + Virginia (Big 10) and UNC, FSU, Miami, Clemson (SEC) is only 6 votes. The real movement will happen when someone realizes that to get those 6, they will need to also offer 2 of NC State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Syracuse, or Pitt a spot in the Big 10 or SEC. I think NC State could make sense as a consolation prize to NC, ditto Virginia Tech for Virginia. And I still think Georgia Tech might offer the academics and market that the Big 10 desires.
Duke, Wake, BC are screwed. Some of Louisville, Cuse, Pitt, VT will also be left in the cold.
So...in other words, make them employees. And the NCAA would not be able to unilaterally cap the stipend. That's illegal.
In addition to your 2 excellent points (Herman will love that!), the admin seems to have "who gives a rat's ass?" attitude towards their sport teams. The only plus is a lucrative market, but if, like DP, a team is consistently bad, it waters down the market factor. Neither the Chicago Tribune nor the Washington Post seem interested enough to even post short stories about the games of the local BE teams, and I would guess the Boston Globe doesn't waste time on BC.
No, according to federal law, graduate students are not considered employees, that is one of the reasons it is considered a stipend.
And if they were governed by a central organization, e.g. the NCAA, they could establish minimum and maximum stipends, in a similar way as the NIH do for anything funded by them. Essentially any organization that receives support, or funds (tournament payouts) must adhere to their minimum/maximums.
He’s been wrong a lot through the years
4 days ago that dude tweeted that Georgetown and Nova were deep in talks to join the B12. Now today he's saying "Georgetown would have been a shoe-in in 20 years ago" and three other schools are in. I think this guy volume tweets what he hears through telephone game and hopes something sticks.
Doesn't sound promising though.
Has the Philadelphia Inquirer or the Washington Post or the NY Post published anything on this in the last month. Those 3 usually have their ears pretty close to the ground when it comes to covering the Big East. Or has it been just one dork with a Twitter account??
This! ^^
I have 3 kids that graduated BC and have spoken with Fr. Leahy SJ (former Marquette faculty and admin) often and he didn't say it directly, but athletics is something that he just wishes would go away.
I also think this is likely, but I won't believe it until I see it.
The problem is that of the teams you listed there aren't enough votes to blow up the ACC. Notre Dame + Virginia (Big 10) and UNC, FSU, Miami, Clemson (SEC) is only 6 votes. The real movement will happen when someone realizes that to get those 6, they will need to also offer 2 of NC State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Syracuse, or Pitt a spot in the Big 10 or SEC. I think NC State could make sense as a consolation prize to NC, ditto Virginia Tech for Virginia. And I still think Georgia Tech might offer the academics and market that the Big 10 desires.
Duke, Wake, BC are screwed. Some of Louisville, Cuse, Pitt, VT will also be left in the cold.
I think I read that the Virginia schools are tied together by state law on future conference changes
Let's hope for the scenario where the ACC implodes and the Big East grabs Duke and Wake. I love the double round robin format...keep it and limit your non-conference schedule to just a few games. We can play Wisconsin and ND and then mostly a Big East schedule. Let's hope that DePaul and Georgetown elevate their programs and everyone's SOS goes through the roof.
I think I read that the Virginia schools are tied together by state law on future conference changes
The only way Duke goes to the Big East is if the B1G, SEC and Big12 give them the cold shoulder. Duke Football is no worse than Rutgers or Kansas.
Again, there is a difference between inviting a new member with a weak football program and dealing with one already in your conference.
...but the B12 is also looking at their basketball programs as well. If there were feelers out there for Gonzaga, Duke is a no brainer.
The only way Duke goes to the Big East is if the B1G, SEC and Big12 give them the cold shoulder. Duke Football is no worse than Rutgers or Kansas.
https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/14/power-5-desirability-rankings-sec-big-ten-acc
If they enter the market for basketball only schools....that would be very bad for the Big East.
Which could be very good (joining the Big XII) or very bad (getting left behind with Providence, DePaul, and Butler) for Marquette
Marquette joining the Big 12 would be bad from any reasonable fan’s perspective. Why would anyone want to mess with what’s happening in the Big East right now?
Obviously it would be much better than being left in the cold without a major conference affiliation. But if the Big 12 wants to package basketball media rights separate from football, who’s to say there would be much (if any) financial incentive for Big East universities to switch? Isn’t the entire appeal of moving to the P5 getting at least a tiny piece of that football pie?
The Big XII has produced the last two national champions and is year in and year out the best conference in college basketball.
Sure, Kansas would win the conference every year. But we'd be in the next tier with Baylor, Houston, etc and at the very least no worse off than Iowa St or K State.
I prefer the current Big East, but I'd much rather be IN an expanded Big XII than out of it.
If the worst case happened, and Villanova, UConn and SJU left the conference, the Big East would be able to pick up 2 or 3 decent programs and move forward. It would not make Marquette irrelevant and most certainly not be the next version of the MCC. Don't get me wrong, it would not be nearly as good as the conference is now, but have some faith.
I think the worst case scenario leads to a slightly stronger version of the A-10. The MCC was a little hyperbole on my part. My concern would be the continued erosion of status that would eventually lead to a second tier in college basketball. MU needs to be in a conference that is part of the 75-100 teams that eventually break away from the rest and have their own championship. The movement for power conference consolidation in the last 10-15 years has been exponentially faster than the last 100 years combined. The writing is on the wall. They will break away. MU needs an invite from the big boys and there is concern on my part that will not happen. Hopefully I am dead wrong.
Of course if the Big East is majorly poached we’d want to be a part of that. But what’s incentivizing those first Big East teams to make the jump? Even if you could guarantee the Big 12’s quality long-term (which you can’t—they’ll have down years soon enough), that isn’t a good enough reason to blow up decades-long rivalries, participation in the BET, and everything else the Big East has going it.
The Big12 isn’t an attractive spot for MU or any other BE program. It would just take one phone call from the Big10 to snag Kansas and the basketball conference would quickly become crap. The success of Baylor and Houston are largely tied to their coaches and if they leave those programs and fan bases could easily fall off a cliff. Nothing would excite me less to look at the schedule and see games @BYU and home against UCF back to back.
A couple of things:
1. No.
2. Houston isn't in the Big 12.
A couple of things:
1. No.
2. Houston isn't in the Big 12.
They would be when any basketball only school would be a part of the conference. And what do you mean by “no”?
There would be much more attractive options for any basketball only school than the Big12.
Houston will be in the B12 next year.
Houston will be in the B12 next year.
Actually, this July as they negotiated an early exit.
https://www.uh.edu/news-events/stories/2022-news-articles/june-2022/06102022-big12.php
If the worst case happened, and Villanova, UConn and SJU left the conference, the Big East would be able to pick up 2 or 3 decent programs and move forward. It would not make Marquette irrelevant and most certainly not be the next version of the MCC. Don't get me wrong, it would not be nearly as good as the conference is now, but have some faith.
If the BE loses the greater metro NY market with a Nova, UConn and SJU exit then the conference takes a big hit imo.
John Fanta
@John_Fanta
NEWS: Big East Commissioner Val Ackerman announces that the conference will be initiating talks about a renewal deal with media rights holder FOX Sports in the coming months.
https://twitter.com/John_Fanta/status/1633523513842647040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1633523513842647040%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
The Big12 isn’t an attractive spot for MU or any other BE program. It would just take one phone call from the Big10 to snag Kansas and the basketball conference would quickly become crap. The success of Baylor and Houston are largely tied to their coaches and if they leave those programs and fan bases could easily fall off a cliff. Nothing would excite me less to look at the schedule and see games @BYU and home against UCF back to back.
This and the fact that Fox holds the rights to B12 basketball, makes me think that a B12 raid on the BE is unlikely, and that its more likely to see some sort of B12-BE alliance hybrid for basketball (and maybe olympic sports?).
This and the fact that Fox holds the rights to B12 basketball, makes me think that a B12 raid on the BE is unlikely, and that its more likely to see some sort of B12-BE alliance hybrid for basketball (and maybe olympic sports?).
This and the fact that Fox holds the rights to B12 basketball, makes me think that a B12 raid on the BE is unlikely, and that its more likely to see some sort of B12-BE alliance hybrid for basketball (and maybe olympic sports?).
The Big12 isn’t an attractive spot for MU or any other BE program. It would just take one phone call from the Big10 to snag Kansas and the basketball conference would quickly become crap. The success of Baylor and Houston are largely tied to their coaches and if they leave those programs and fan bases could easily fall off a cliff. Nothing would excite me less to look at the schedule and see games @BYU and home against UCF back to back.
In a wide-ranging interview with CBS Sports on Wednesday night, Robbins provided what might be the most inside look at the Pac-12-Big 12 realignment tussle to date. Robbins said out loud what the industry has been whispering: Fox had a significant hand in luring USC and UCLA to the Big Ten. We learned that Arizona and Arizona State are basically a package deal with Robbins and ASU president Michael Crow in lockstep. If one leaves the conference, the other might follow.
No matter what happens with a Pac-12 deal, the SEC and Big Ten will be at least $30 million annually ahead of everyone else on a per-school basis. That gulf is significant and will be difficult to overcome.
https://www.offtackleempire.com/2023/3/24/23654940/matt-painter-purdue-dusty-may-florida-atlantic-badgers-hoosiers-terrapins-wolverines-spartans-izzo
An opinion piece about the Big 10 being a mid major. Enjoy.
https://www.offtackleempire.com/2023/3/24/23654940/matt-painter-purdue-dusty-may-florida-atlantic-badgers-hoosiers-terrapins-wolverines-spartans-izzo
An opinion piece about the Big 10 being a mid major. Enjoy.
https://www.offtackleempire.com/2023/3/24/23654940/matt-painter-purdue-dusty-may-florida-atlantic-badgers-hoosiers-terrapins-wolverines-spartans-izzo
An opinion piece about the Big 10 being a mid major. Enjoy.
Looks like the ACC finally knows what the rest of the country has known for years....
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35945209/jim-phillips-acc-meet-changing-men-hoops-narrative (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35945209/jim-phillips-acc-meet-changing-men-hoops-narrative)
Phillips make PC's AD look like a grown ass man. Someone get that man some cheese to go with his whine.
In my opinion, looks like AZ is setting the table to jump to the Big 12. Here are the comments:
University of Arizona president Robert Robbins tried to quiet rumors that his school, or any in the Pac-12, is currently looking to the Big 12 for membership.
"There's a lot of disinformation, for instance, that Arizona is going to the Big 12," Robbins said recently.
https://www.offtackleempire.com/2023/3/24/23654940/matt-painter-purdue-dusty-may-florida-atlantic-badgers-hoosiers-terrapins-wolverines-spartans-izzo
An opinion piece about the Big 10 being a mid major. Enjoy.
Looks like the ACC finally knows what the rest of the country has known for years....
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35945209/jim-phillips-acc-meet-changing-men-hoops-narrative (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35945209/jim-phillips-acc-meet-changing-men-hoops-narrative)
Phillips make PC's AD look like a grown ass man. Someone get that man some cheese to go with his whine.
What a total embarrassment of a conference. This is the same freaking league that poached Pitt and Syracuse, and then L'Ville, and immediately proclaimed it to be the best conference in history with a sit down on ESP.N with Coach K, Roy, Pitino, and Boeheim. What a pathetic, cry-baby, response.Out of curiosity I popped over to a Syracuse site to see how Phillip's act is playing to his constituents, 9/10 think he's a cry baby, embarrassing and some think he should be fired. Even a couple of calls to return to the Big East :D
Enjoyed it, except for the silly argument that Conference USA is much good at hoops.
Enjoyed it, except for the silly argument that Conference USA is much good at hoops.This is not aging well. Holding their own against P6 schools.
https://twitter.com/TheMontyShow/status/1653135765323542528?t=tOPBR8bYcS4KeNxKjlJw7w&s=19
Meanwhile in the PAC 12...
Is that serious? Because that makes no sense.The PAC is a mess. BYU would have been a good fit but they fell asleep at the wheel.
Problem is that UNLV has absolutely sucked on the football field and hasn’t done much better elsewhere.true that, but Colorado has been football garbage for a lot of seasons. I would think UNLV would elevate in hoops with PAC12 entry, and football might get to ‘good enough’. Splashy market, close proximity on travel. I don’t know if the academics align.
true that, but Colorado has been football garbage for a lot of seasons. I would think UNLV would elevate in hoops with PAC12 entry, and football might get to ‘good enough’. Splashy market, close proximity on travel. I don’t know if the academics align.
true that, but Colorado has been football garbage for a lot of seasons. I would think UNLV would elevate in hoops with PAC12 entry, and football might get to ‘good enough’. Splashy market, close proximity on travel. I don’t know if the academics align.
I'm pretty sure that academics no longer matter in conference alignment.
https://twitter.com/TheMontyShow/status/1653135765323542528?t=tOPBR8bYcS4KeNxKjlJw7w&s=19
Meanwhile in the PAC 12...
I would have agreed but explain their supposed interest in Rice and Tulane?
The fact that the P12 is entertaining Rice/SMU/Tulane is truly shocking for a P5 conference.
Like the P12, I don't know of much better options. But it speaks to how bad things have gotten for the P12.
And it appears to possibly getting worse. There is chatter of unequal distributions of revenue because the "new" schools don't move the needle at all for TV. This is an absolute receipt of failure; the animosity will be palpable in the conference from not only the "lesser" schools to the "greater" schools but also the "greater" towards the "lesser" schools when Tulane or Rice or SDSU are not performing well. Is there any doubt we'll be hearing ASU and Oregon fans complain about the dead weight at the bottom of their conference? The B12 tried this with Texas and it was a complete disaster.
Yep. In addition to the scenario you listed, what happens when previously "lesser/greater" schools becomes stronger or weaker? Do the conference members agree to reapportion the money? ;D
Notre Dame has been one of the rare exceptions to a school raking in the Big Bucks because they were able to stay independent for so long. Teams like DePaul collect money despite doing nothing other than serving as sparring partners for the rest of the BE. It's just the way it is.
Simple. The greater schools start talking to the other conferences and bail.
https://www.si.com/college/2023/05/15/college-football-expansion-whats-next-power-5-conferences
I am going to be so freaking happy when BC, Pitt, and Cuse get left out in the cold by the big football schools and have to crawl to the American with their tails between their legs... I just hope the Big East doesn't allow any of them back.
If Syracuse, Pitt and/or BC want to come back on a UConn-type arrangement, and media partners show them the $$$, you take them in a heartbeat.Even BC? I know they were dominant in the old Big East, so maybe.
If Syracuse, Pitt and/or BC want to come back on a UConn-type arrangement, and media partners show them the $$$, you take them in a heartbeat.
What confidence should the Big East have that any of those schools are going to be any good at basketball in the future? Boeheim is gone. BC no longer cares about sports. And Pitt is just meh all around. Why dilute the product with them? And I doubt any of them would move the needle with network executives.I totally follow your logic, but I think Pitt and Cuse could/would be strong partners. I'd even put up with their painful fans. BC does nothing for me and BC's 2 fans are not worth it either.
What confidence should the Big East have that any of those schools are going to be any good at basketball in the future? Boeheim is gone. BC no longer cares about sports. And Pitt is just meh all around. Why dilute the product with them? And I doubt any of them would move the needle with network executives.
What confidence should the Big East have that any of those schools are going to be any good at basketball in the future? Boeheim is gone. BC no longer cares about sports. And Pitt is just meh all around. Why dilute the product with them? And I doubt any of them would move the needle with network executives.
| Audience | Day | Date | Game | Notes | Notes |
| 2991 | Sunday | 25-Dec | Creighton/Depaul | FOX | |
| 1158 | Tuesday | 22-Nov | Creighton/Arkansas | ESPN | Maui |
| 1104 | Wednesday | 23-Nov | Creighton/Arizona | ESPN | Maui |
| 1092 | Saturday | 28-Jan | Xavier/Creighton | CBS | |
| 1000 | Friday | 25-Nov | Xavier/Duke | ESPN | PK Legacy |
| 998 | Saturday | 10-Dec | Villanova/Boston College | FOX | |
| 937 | Satudray | 10-Dec | Georgetown/Syracuse | ABC | |
| 913 | Saturday | 25-Feb | Uconn/St. Johns | CBS | |
| 901 | Saturday | 11-Feb | Uconn/Creighton | FOX | |
| 873 | Saturday | 7-Jan | Creighton/Uconn | FOX | |
| 815 | Saturday | 17-Dec | Providence/Seton Hall | FOX |
If Syracuse, Pitt and/or BC want to come back on a UConn-type arrangement, and media partners show them the $$$, you take them in a heartbeat.
What confidence should the Big East have that any of those schools are going to be any good at basketball in the future? Boeheim is gone. BC no longer cares about sports. And Pitt is just meh all around. Why dilute the product with them? And I doubt any of them would move the needle with network executives.
Yep. In addition to the scenario you listed, what happens when previously "lesser/greater" schools becomes stronger or weaker? Do the conference members agree to reapportion the money? ;D
Notre Dame has been one of the rare exceptions to a school raking in the Big Bucks because they were able to stay independent for so long. Teams like DePaul collect money despite doing nothing other than serving as sparring partners for the rest of the BE. It's just the way it is.
It's much more likely that UConn is poached again than BC/Pitt/Cuse return to the Big East.
The endless pursuit of the almighty football dollar is just a moth to a flame.
I also suspect college football is near its apex in terms of popularity and will start a very slow decline in influence over the next 25 years. Fewer kids playing organized football is going to lead to less interest in the long run. Basketball will never catch up but football will fall back. Heck, in 25 years the gaming team might be the biggest revenue generator.
I have to agree. Football is perfect for gambling (fantasy) and that has fueled it growth. As popular as the NFL is, some teams some years have difficulties selling out so the bottom line is not growing from fan interest. Maybe somebody actually knows but I feel like 50% of viewers are not fans of either team.
People have been saying football has been near its peak for decades. And I have yet to see any indication that’s accurate.
And people don’t have to play a sport to want to watch a sport.
I've heard the SMU/Rice and even Tulane chatter before. The Texas schools seem like a no-brainer, but it took me a second to think through Tulane. However, it does make a lot of sense.
- Recruiting in Texas and Louisiana to compete with the SEC and Big XII who already have a presence there.
- Academic reputation. This does still matter a bit to the PAC12.
- Presence in 3 time zones.
- In Tulane's case, they're at least a little bit of a rising athletic program.
SDSU is a slam dunk and is going to happen. I still think Fresno and ONE of the Nevada schools makes a lot of sense. Boise has had success but is too small to offer much. Then it's schools in the "near" west, of which Rice or SMU and Tulane actually check a lot of boxes.
I totally follow your logic, but I think Pitt and Cuse could/would be strong partners. I'd even put up with their painful fans. BC does nothing for me and BC's 2 fans are not worth it either.
Meanwhile in the ACC....
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1658174167789756433?t=skhQVqDK8hHu_dQL1-eyGg&s=19
Clemson, FSU, Miami, UNC, NC State, Virginia & Virginia Tech are “The Magnificent 7” ACC schools, sources told @ActionNetworkHQ. These schools, @RossDellenger reported, have met in past several months, w/lawyers examining grant-of-rights to determine just how unbreakable it is. ACC deal runs thru 2036
I don't see the GoR lasting until 2036
I totally follow your logic, but I think Pitt and Cuse could/would be strong partners. I'd even put up with their painful fans. BC does nothing for me and BC's 2 fans are not worth it either.
Regarding Big East, I’ve long assumed that if they stuck to the plan of not adding football schools that VCU and Saint Louis make the most sense? Maybe Davidson? Others that are decent bball schools that geographically make sense are Dayton and Drake. However Dayton would share the Cincy market with Xavier so that might be a deal breaker of them ever being added but they are a good competitive bball school. Drake probably too small of a media market (Des Moines) to add.
A sneaky school who could gain traction if they continue their hot start at the D1 level is Saint Thomas (Minneapolis/Saint Paul market)
Not sure who else? Oral Roberts (Tulsa, OK)? Fordham (NYC)? Of course if they choose to not factor in geography that opens up a ton more possibilities. Saint Mary’s? San Francisco?
The impending ACC blowup might be biggest factor of who is added to the BE so maybe they sit tight until that happens?
Probably will add 1 school for short term when the time comes but 2 if UConn leaves. Not sure if their plan would be to get to 12 or eventually 14 or 16 teams.
No one wants the Domers, hey?
They are destined to end up in the Big T#n eventually. Also, yes, no one wants to be associated with them if they don’t have to.
Meanwhile in the ACC....I think you are right but not because they will find an out in the GoR, that has ben reviewed by every lawyer east of the Mississippi. I think the ACC will dissolve.
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1658174167789756433?t=skhQVqDK8hHu_dQL1-eyGg&s=19
Clemson, FSU, Miami, UNC, NC State, Virginia & Virginia Tech are “The Magnificent 7” ACC schools, sources told @ActionNetworkHQ. These schools, @RossDellenger reported, have met in past several months, w/lawyers examining grant-of-rights to determine just how unbreakable it is. ACC deal runs thru 2036
I don't see the GoR lasting until 2036
" Pitt and Cuse could/would be strong partners" ?Good points. I was referring only to quality of the basketball product, not the quality of the schools. I'd be happy with the status quo.
You have a short memory. Back in 2011-12 not only did Pitt and Cuse turn their backs on the BE and bail in favor of the ACC, they actually led the charge in blowing up the old BE completely. There was even suggestions ( strong evidence ??) that the Pitt and Cuse ADs at the time went behind the backs of the Catholic 7 and sabatoged an ESPN deal reportedly on the table, which all but guaranteed the old BE would fall apart.
With "strong partners" like that, who the F needs enemies? UCONN was a special case and allowing them to come back to the BE was correct on all levels. The current BE should have nothing to do with these 2 disgusting institutions.
I think you are right but not because they will find an out in the GoR, that has ben reviewed by every lawyer east of the Mississippi. I think the ACC will dissolve.
I don't think the ACC bylaws are public, so it isn't widely known how many votes are needed to do this.
I think you are right but not because they will find an out in the GoR, that has ben reviewed by every lawyer east of the Mississippi. I think the ACC will dissolve.
The bylaws are public but they never clarified the means of dissolution.
https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2022/08/2020-21-ACC-Manual-2020-9-17-2.pdf
New big east? Who says no?
https://twitter.com/JackMacCFB/status/1658450194495668227?t=4kWe8d_5tB0QamdxGTR4Lw&s=19
I'd say no. I really don't want to get back in bed with football as the driver. Duke would be great, but that's taking on a lot of scattered garbage to get them.
New big east? Who says no?
https://twitter.com/JackMacCFB/status/1658450194495668227?t=4kWe8d_5tB0QamdxGTR4Lw&s=19
I do.
The expression "been there, done that" may be very dated, but it really fits here. For a long time, UCONN wanted an invite to the ACC and was an absolute hussy trying to get their attention.
Who knows, but kinda funny if the BEast outlives the ACC.
https://twitter.com/GSwaim/status/1658494618458116096?s=20
BREAKING: Just verified this with a colleague who will also be reporting soon that #CardNation just became the eighth team to put the #ACC's existence into serious jeopardy. Of course that means the #Big12 has made the offer. Conference Realignment is going down...and soon!!
Didn't UCONN have to accept having a huge penalty if they tried to leave the BEast again?
They did, although I believe that the amount declined quite a bit over a period of years. I think it is very unlikely that they would leave the BE, but the delusion that they could easily become a football power like they are in basketball probably still remains. What I am saying is that never assume that UCONN is fully committed to the BE.
I found this: (https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/article/Could-UConn-leave-the-Big-East-if-conference-16333801.php)
Did you hear the other news? After losing its two marquee programs, the Big 12 will raid the ACC, leaving a void in that league that will obviously be filled by UConn.
OK, that’s just rampant speculation on social media, message boards, even from some media types.
Bottom line, that’s not happening right now. UConn officials scoff at the notion. The school couldn’t be happier to be back in the Big East, and one way it’s showed its gratitude is by agreeing to pay a whopping $30 million exit fee if it were to leave any time within its first six years in the league.
Which begs the question, how much media money could a conference consisting of Duke, Wake Forest, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Pitt, Syracuse and UCONN command for their football content alone. My guess would be not much, relatively speaking. UCONN would merely be jumping from one bad football conference ( AAC ) to a worse conference.
I found this: (https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/article/Could-UConn-leave-the-Big-East-if-conference-16333801.php)
Did you hear the other news? After losing its two marquee programs, the Big 12 will raid the ACC, leaving a void in that league that will obviously be filled by UConn.
OK, that’s just rampant speculation on social media, message boards, even from some media types.
Bottom line, that’s not happening right now. UConn officials scoff at the notion. The school couldn’t be happier to be back in the Big East, and one way it’s showed its gratitude is by agreeing to pay a whopping $30 million exit fee if it were to leave any time within its first six years in the league.
Would UConn accept Big 12, Power Five invitation? Athletic director calls it 'complicated' question
https://www.ctinsider.com/sports/uconn/article/david-benedict-big-east-big-12-18104155.php
That is a brutal decision for that athletic director. Either choice you make could look really foolish in five years or so.
Would UConn accept Big 12, Power Five invitation? Athletic director calls it 'complicated' question
Big 12? No, but realistically the Big 12 have better candidates.
ACC with a GOR? No, because it merely makes them BC.
ACC after the seven other schools leave? Maybe.
Largely undiscussed: its football stadium is falling apart.
https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/hartford/rentschler-field-repairs-would-cost-millions-of-dollars/
Matches???
Hart said renovations go beyond UConn’s gamedays. The stadium hosts 100 events each year outside of football matches.
Largely undiscussed: its football stadium is falling apart.
https://www.wtnh.com/news/connecticut/hartford/rentschler-field-repairs-would-cost-millions-of-dollars/
Big 12? No, but realistically the Big 12 have better candidates.
ACC with a GOR? No, because it merely makes them BC.
ACC after the seven other schools leave? Maybe.
Well, I've said it before in this thread:
Val needs to put on a party dress and work the country clubs down in Durham and Winston-Salem. It would be really nice to get Duke and Wake in the BEast.
Both of their football programs suck and unlike Vanderbilt, they're not likely be in the SEC/Big Ten conferences.
https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/college-football/conference-realignment-rumors-7-acc-schools-reportedly-looking-into-breaking-from-media-rights-agreement/
Well, I've said it before in this thread:
Val needs to put on a party dress and work the country clubs down in Durham and Winston-Salem. It would be really nice to get Duke and Wake in the BEast.
Both of their football programs suck and unlike Vanderbilt, they're not likely be in the SEC/Big Ten conferences.
https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/college-football/conference-realignment-rumors-7-acc-schools-reportedly-looking-into-breaking-from-media-rights-agreement/
I agree with this comment on the article:
"UNC, FSU, Clemson, and UVA can be pretty sure of making the SEC or B1G.
Miami, GT, VT, Duke, and NC State could potentially get accepted to one of them, if not they will have a place in the Big 12 and make more money.
Louisville and Pitt could also be pretty sure of a Big 12 invite.
Thats theoretically enough to end the conference. Sorry Syracuse, Wake, and BC"
I don't think Duke is going to end up in the Big East. BC and Wake? Could happen. Syracuse is less likely but possible.
The probelm with UConn's basketball problem prior to rejoining the Big East was not a loss of traditional rivals--it was that recruiting suffered as recruits were concerned about not playing enough highly visiblie, highly ranked programs.
The B12 isn't an unattractive home while the American was toxic to top-level recruits. The B12 provides a competitive field that is no worse than the Big East.
UNC, Clemson, Fla State and Miami will end up in the SEC.
Virginia and maybe Notre Dame will be in the BIG. I still believe this.
Louisville, Syracuse, NC State and Va Tech will be in the Big 12.
Everyone else is toast. Their football won't get them an invitation to the Vanderbilt Invitational Tournament, much less t5o a P5 conference. About the only exception could be Boston College, but I see them in the AAC or C-USA.
That leaves Wake and Duke. Hello Big East!
UConn in the Big 12 is Boston College. They will lose the Eastern recruiting edge and subject their fans to divisional games with the likes of UCF, Houston, Iowa State, Cincinnati, and Oklahoma State.
Duke won't be left behind. It is too good of a brand and academic institution. I don't know where they will land, but it won't be the Big East.My gut reaction is you are correct about Duke. But I have been surprised in the past about this stuff and the fact that Duke is a non-factor in football is very relevant.
I still maintain Wake and BC are the most likely to land in the Big East.
BC in the Big East is DePaul. With five national championships and a long track record of success, UConn is not BC in any major conference.
I just heard a reporter on the radio, who is at the ACC meetings, who said that some of the ACC ADs refused to sign "a letter of solidarity". Ouch!
Duke won't be left behind. It is too good of a brand and academic institution. I don't know where they will land, but it won't be the Big East.
I still maintain Wake and BC are the most likely to land in the Big East.
Brother Coleman:
Most of the time I agree with you. This time: No way!
It's about dollars, pure and simple. Duke football does nothing for the ratings or the overall competitive strength of a conference's programming. Playing Duke will consign a team to playing on ESPN12 between Slippery Rock vs. Marshall and Vanderbilt vs. The Citadel.
There is no chance Duke football will finish in the upper half of the SEC or the BIG, much less compete for a championship. The SEC already has Kentucky, Vanderbilt and Mississippi State to line the bottom of the bird cage. Why on earth would they want Duke?
As to the BIG, every legacy team has one at least one outright conference championship, Even Northwestern, who currently sucks. Add Notre Dame and Virginia and you have a true power conference.
On Wake, I agree with you. But I think we can get Duke too and we'd be America's BEST basketball conference. Bar none.
I think it is extremely doubtful that Duke is ever in the Big Ten, unless it comes in a package deal with UNC or something similar. They just don't have the football fanbase, and their basketball "move the needle" cannot make up for that.
For sure. Duke will be fine, but it will not be in the Big 10.
Because Rutgers was primarily added to get the BTN on a primary cable tier in the NYC metro. Same with Maryland and DC.
I get that, but what I’m saying is if I’m a TV exec, I find it hard to believe that more people are evaluating TV packages based on where to watch Rutgers football than Duke basketball.
I would guess Rutgers football draws more than Duke basketball. And regardless, if they don’t, there would be better options overall than Duke and its basketball team. It’s not a binary option between Duke and Rutgers at this point.
There is no chance Duke football will finish in the upper half of the SEC or the BIG, much less compete for a championship.
Why is adding Duke football worse than adding Rutgers football? And I’d bet Duke basketball is more accretive to the TV contract than adding Maryland football. And Duke’s academics are far superior to Nebraska’s. It’s not crazy.
I agree with this comment on the article:
"UNC, FSU, Clemson, and UVA can be pretty sure of making the SEC or B1G.
Miami, GT, VT, Duke, and NC State could potentially get accepted to one of them, if not they will have a place in the Big 12 and make more money.
Louisville and Pitt could also be pretty sure of a Big 12 invite.
Thats theoretically enough to end the conference. Sorry Syracuse, Wake, and BC"
I don't think Duke is going to end up in the Big East. BC and Wake? Could happen. Syracuse is less likely but possible.
Fair, but I suspect UNC and Duke might be a package deal. And the SEC certainly won’t take Duke. And I suspect the Big Ten wants to tap into the Southeast.
Fair, but I suspect UNC and Duke might be a package deal. And the SEC certainly won’t take Duke. And I suspect the Big Ten wants to tap into the Southeast.Honest question: why would UNC and Duke be a package deal? I'm not following why UNC would pass on any good opportunity if it did not include Duke.
Well, TCU was in the NC game, and had their 2nd top 2 finish in the past 10-15 years. Not saying they are Bama or UGA but they are smaller than MU and better than a Wisconsin or any other B10 school not named OSU or Michigan in the past 20 years.
Last but not least, for all you hopeless romantics who somehow think that Marquette should never have dropped football and that we'd be a P4 team if the Jesuits had just shown more wisdom back in the dark ages of 1960, I got news. How many schools with 11,000 students and Marquette's resources have legitimate P4 football programs. Think about it -- maybe Stanford, USC, and that obnoxious drunken leprechaun. We're debating whether Boston College is a legitimate football power (it aint) and anyone who thinks Duke, Vanderbilt and Northwestern are, well, you're probably the same people that would donate money for an on-campus, 60,000 football stadium on the near west side of Milwaukee! Right?
I get that, but what I’m saying is if I’m a TV exec, I find it hard to believe that more people are evaluating TV packages based on where to watch Rutgers football than Duke basketball.
Iirc, the move allowed a major cable provider to add the B1G network to a pretty basic cable package in the the NYC and DC metros. This meant that millions of people were now paying for the B1G network who weren't before.... whether they ever watched it or not. It brought in millions in revenue a year.FIFYI don't thinkDuke would have the same impact
FIFY
Would they? I honestly don't know what the cable situation is down Durham way. Even if there is a similar setup, if the B1G grabbed a UNC (or maybe UVA or VT) first, they wouldn't need Duke to accomplish thatAgreed.
Agreed.
On the flip side, would Duke want to chase big time football? They have a great name and tradition in basketball and it has been proved out that you don't need big time football to be a basketball power and TV draw. Not knowing much about Duke football, I'll venture a guess that they play in a 30k seat stadium and have below average facilities. To keep up in the super conferences may take a $250M investment (wild @ss guess)
But (there's always a but) if the super conferences break off from the NCAA , Duke may be compelled to take money from the dorms or med school to invest in football. Of course, the super conferences may include the Big East sooo...... ;)
If there is a break off from the NCAA, Duke will be invited along and continue to invest the same amount of money and resources into football they always have.You may be correct, but that doesn't align with the public or not so public narrative that conferences are looking for schools that maintain or add to the conference value. Duke right now is looking at a real possibility of getting a diminished share of the current ACC deal. Schools like Clemson, FSU, Miami, VT & NC are looking for a $10M per year bump so some ACC schools will take a $10M hit annually. I'm not saying it will happen but I think it gives us a general market value of Duke.
Regarding Big East, I’ve long assumed that if they stuck to the plan of not adding football schools that VCU and Saint Louis make the most sense? Maybe Davidson? Others that are decent bball schools that geographically make sense are Dayton and Drake. However Dayton would share the Cincy market with Xavier so that might be a deal breaker of them ever being added but they are a good competitive bball school. Drake probably too small of a media market (Des Moines) to add.
A sneaky school who could gain traction if they continue their hot start at the D1 level is Saint Thomas (Minneapolis/Saint Paul market)
Not sure who else? Oral Roberts (Tulsa, OK)? Fordham (NYC)? Of course if they choose to not factor in geography that opens up a ton more possibilities. Saint Mary’s? San Francisco?
The impending ACC blowup might be biggest factor of who is added to the BE so maybe they sit tight until that happens?
Probably will add 1 school for short term when the time comes but 2 if UConn leaves. Not sure if their plan would be to get to 12 or eventually 14 or 16 teams.
Honest question: why would UNC and Duke be a package deal? I'm not following why UNC would pass on any good opportunity if it did not include Duke.
I framed the question that way because IMHO Duke athletics doesn't bring the $75-$100M per year of revenue that the BIG10 or SEC demand.
Perhaps the same reasons USC and UCLA were a package deal.And what reasons were those? I'm not saying your wrong but the parallels are not obvious to me.
And what reasons were those? I'm not saying your wrong but the parallels are not obvious to me.
The Duke/UNC regular season games are among the most watched college basketball games all season.
The 3/4 matchup drew 2.6 million fans, and the 2/4 game was even larger with 2.8 million. Those are HUGE audiences. MU's biggest regular season game by comparison was 540k
No network is going to split Duke/UNC because they'll lose out on those two huge paydays.
St Thomas? You must be one of their four fans.
There are 10 football programs that average 2.6 million per game or more. But Duke football averages 115,700 viewers.I agree with this. And I don't think UNC needs a travel partner if they go to either the SEC or BIG10.
If it were a basketball-only conference, those games might matter. To a football conference, those games are just blips on their least important radar. Duke isn't going to be a package deal with North Carolina because of 2 basketball games per year.
https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-zach/which-college-football-programs-were-the-most-watched-in-2022-94eca4f6acbd
Those four fans make it their full time job to say “the Big East will come crawling to add St Thomas.”I bet that will happen.................... right after a spot in the Big East opens because MU joins the Big10. ::)
The delusion is that real.
Those four fans make it their full time job to say “the Big East will come crawling to add St Thomas.”
The delusion is that real.
I probably would take St Thomas to the BE before Dayton :)I probably would take Chicago St. to the BE before Dayton ;D
I get that, but what I’m saying is if I’m a TV exec, I find it hard to believe that more people are evaluating TV packages based on where to watch Rutgers football than Duke basketball.Getting Rutgers in the B1G, was about the B1G alumni in the area to get that region with BTN on their TV's.
I probably would take St Thomas to the BE before Dayton :)
Would they? I honestly don't know what the cable situation is down Durham way. Even if there is a similar setup, if the B1G grabbed a UNC (or maybe UVA or VT) first, they wouldn't need Duke to accomplish thatTAMU, just saw that my attempt to be witty was wrong. I meant to remove the "think" from Duke not have the same impact. I think your read on this is 100% correct, and that is what I was trying to convey.
TAMU, just saw that my attempt to be witty was wrong. I meant to remove the "think" from Duke not have the same impact. I think your read on this is 100% correct, and that is what I was trying to convey.
When do the power football conferences reach saturation? A 20 team mega conference has well hit the point of diminishing returns, IMO. This will be true with TV markets too. It sounds like the B1G is almost there and would be selective (Notre Dame, UNC).
Also, would ND join the B1G to finish in 8th place every year and give up playoff bid? They have had at least 10 chances to do that. I think they prefer their own TV deal. Maybe the BE has a chance of them returning?
Also, would ND join the B1G to finish in 8th place every year and give up playoff bid? They have had at least 10 chances to do that. I think they prefer their own TV deal. Maybe the BE has a chance of them returning?
And what reasons were those? I'm not saying your wrong but the parallels are not obvious to me.BIG wanted USC for football. USC wanted the FOX TV revenue, but wanted to maintain the UCLA rivalry across all sports (hence, package deal). And, UCLA NEEDED the FOX revenue due to their extreme athletic dept. debt. I have not heard if the California ‘system’ has officially granted UCLA a release from the PAC12, but assuming so as it appears all systems-go for ‘24.
BIG wanted USC for football. USC wanted the FOX TV revenue, but wanted to maintain the UCLA rivalry across all sports (hence, package deal). And, UCLA NEEDED the FOX revenue due to their extreme athletic dept. debt. I have not heard if the California ‘system’ has officially granted UCLA a release from the PAC12, but assuming so as it appears all systems-go for ‘24.
true. Not sure what the undergraduate enrollment is at UCLA, but probably double that of SC? (I’m sure SC’s tuition, being a private school, plays a factor in enrollment #’s too.)
Additionally, I would guess there are more alumni of UCLA in southern California than any other school. Over half of their alumni still live in the area.
Good stuff. UConn jumping also means predicting the future. Say they jump and net $8M per year of that $20M after added costs and expenses. That's strictly a guess, no research, just for thought experiment purposes.
So $8M/year means with their $30M Big East buyout, they don't really start to see the profits until year 5. Where will we be in 5 years? Might the SEC & B10 decide to go to 20 programs each? If so, is half of the Big 12 changing again at that point? Might UConn be left in the cold a second time, in a football conference they aren't competitive in with teams from the Carolinas, Texas, Utah, and Florida, among others?
Seems like a big gamble with a very real possibility of UConn having 2015 deja vu.
Ironclad Scoop rule, ABD.
There are 10 football programs that average 2.6 million per game or more. But Duke football averages 115,700 viewers.
If it were a basketball-only conference, those games might matter. To a football conference, those games are just blips on their least important radar. Duke isn't going to be a package deal with North Carolina because of 2 basketball games per year.
https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-zach/which-college-football-programs-were-the-most-watched-in-2022-94eca4f6acbd
As long as NBC or some other network is willing to pay ND the big bucks, there is little incentive for Notre Dame to join a conference. Some argue that being an independent hurts their chances to qualify for the playoffs, but I agree with you -- being a Big 20 also-ran would hurt their chances a lot more. And with the playoffs expanding, they will be in good shape to make it many years.
I also think that playing all non-football sports in the Big East could end up being the best fit for ND. It's hard to imagine that the Big 20 or SEC would let them stay independent in football the way the ACC has, but maybe.
Did you post this on reddit? I swear I saw almost this exact same argument there. I don't disagree
I didn't, but it seems like a logical conclusion considering how they couldn't wait to get back here despite our no-football status.Has the P5 ever added a school for their basketball program? Either moving into P5 or switching P5? I can't think of one.
As far as the Duke/UNC game, it's more that I don't see any thought of basketball being a driver in these decisions. It's all football centric because that's where their money is made. Basketball is the equivalent of a spring hobby.
The difficulty with this theory is Notre Dame has to have someone to play. TV ain't going to pay them BIG BUCKS if they're playing University of Minnesota-Duluth , Navy, Yale, Outer Slobobia State, Nashville State Technical College and the University of Wisconsin Superior.…My man Dgies. You know this!…don’t slight UWSuperior Yellowjacket football!! Wait…does UWS have football? 😊
That's why they play in the ACC.
To get the caliber of competition Notre Dame needs to be Notre Dame, they've got to be in either the SEC or BIG. Take your pick Domers. One or the other!
The difficulty with this theory is Notre Dame has to have someone to play. TV ain't going to pay them BIG BUCKS if they're playing University of Minnesota-Duluth , Navy, Yale, Outer Slobobia State, Nashville State Technical College and the University of Wisconsin Superior.
That's why they play in the ACC.
To get the caliber of competition Notre Dame needs to be Notre Dame, they've got to be in either the SEC or BIG. Take your pick Domers. One or the other!
Has the P5 ever added a school for their basketball program? Either moving into P5 or switching P5? I can't think of one.
More power to Duke if they can become the first.
In the scenario of the ACC unraveling, that would give Duke its chance, I see way more attractive schools available than Duke. IMHO.
Has the P5 ever added a school for their basketball program? Either moving into P5 or switching P5? I can't think of one.
Maryland?
When do the power football conferences reach saturation? A 20 team mega conference has well hit the point of diminishing returns, IMO. This will be true with TV markets too. It sounds like the B1G is almost there and would be selective (Notre Dame, UNC).
Also, would ND join the B1G to finish in 8th place every year and give up playoff bid? They have had at least 10 chances to do that. I think they prefer their own TV deal. Maybe the BE has a chance of them returning?
Maryland?
You really think that the ACC added L'ville, Syracuse and Pitt for their football?
You really think that the ACC added L'ville, Syracuse and Pitt for their football?
They added them for markets and inventory. That is almost always why schools are added.
Second is for football.
You really think that the ACC added L'ville, Syracuse and Pitt for their football?Yes, yes and yes.
To an extent, but killing the Big East is another reason the schools were picked. We know ESPN directed the ACC in terms of who to target. The Big East TV contract was coming up and the ACC raid allowed ESPN to retain what they felt were the most marketable Big East schools by moving them to the ACC while saving them from having to bid on another P6 package.
Right. The ACC wanted those markets in question and used ESPN to help guide them.I honestly believe killing the Big East was 1b on the list of motivations. It was a good business decision to eliminate competition. I don't blame them for putting the boot on the BE neck. The SEC or Big10 or Big XII will do it to the ACC.
I really don't think the motivation by the ACC was to kill the Big East.
…My man Dgies. You know this!…don’t slight UWSuperior Yellowjacket football!! Wait…does UWS have football? 😊
Right. The ACC wanted those markets in question and used ESPN to help guide them.
I really don't think the motivation by the ACC was to kill the Big East.
"ESPN is the one who told us what to do."--Gene DeFilippo, Boston College athletic director
And the Big East would do the same with Fox if expansion is ever on the table.
Has the P5 ever added a school for their basketball program? Either moving into P5 or switching P5? I can't think of one.
More power to Duke if they can become the first.
In the scenario of the ACC unraveling, that would give Duke its chance, I see way more attractive schools available than Duke. IMHO.
Why is the Big 12 looking at UConn then? It certainly isn’t because they have a prestigious football program. I think football is closing in on a point where there are no viable football targets for the SEC, Big 10 and Big 12. At that point, overall brand recognition comes into play and the Big 10 might prefer adding UNC and Duke to its roster than another football also ran.So the answer is 'no' about basketball motivated P5 expansion.
Are you from Superior or something?biz client in Duluth. Get up there now& then.
Given the climate up there, the Yellowjackets should really be the mosquitos!
Why is the Big 12 looking at UConn then? It certainly isn’t because they have a prestigious football program. I think football is closing in on a point where there are no viable football targets for the SEC, Big 10 and Big 12. At that point, overall brand recognition comes into play and the Big 10 might prefer adding UNC and Duke to its roster than another football also ran.
The Big 12 is looking at most of the PAC 12, half the BEast, half the ACC, Gonzaga, and a handful of AAC and MWC schools. They won't end up taking most of them. My guess is that UConn doesn't make the cut.
They can only be looking at Gonzaga and all Big East schools other than UConn if they're thinking about having a basketball-only division. Is that the case? Which 5-6 Big East schools do you think they're looking at?IMHO, the Big XII is trying to create noise and perceived urgency for PAC12 members. I think the BB only strategy is a bluff. I have zero facts to back this up, just a gut feeling.
They can only be looking at Gonzaga and all Big East schools other than UConn if they're thinking about having a basketball-only division. Is that the case? Which 5-6 Big East schools do you think they're looking at?
IMHO, the Big XII is trying to create noise and perceived urgency for PAC12 members. I think the BB only strategy is a bluff. I have zero facts to back this up, just a gut feeling.
The Big 12 is looking at most of the PAC 12, half the BEast, half the ACC, Gonzaga, and a handful of AAC and MWC schools. They won't end up taking most of them. My guess is that UConn doesn't make the cut.
However, I think we are heading for a world where the B1G/SEC dominate football (even more than they already have) and the B12 is the third power conference but is several steps behind the top two. Could they try to close the gap some by shifting more resources into basketball and dominating there? I don't know but I think it bears monitoring.
I think the Big 12 wishes they didn't jump on UCF so quickly now. Beyond being a directional, it really spreads out the conference on the East coast right when it's clear could create an entire formidable mountain west/southwest bloc (Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah, BYU).
The East Coast(ish) side right now is just West Virginia, Cincinnati, and Central Florida and there's really no candidate out there that could help bridge that connection (Memphis is closer to Kansas and Iowa State).
Disagree about UCF. UCF is step one into Florida. UCF has been aggressive in lobbying for inclusion which is ironic
Why is it ironic? Lobbying for inclusion of inclusion of the PAC schools? Not quite following.
I just dont see what step 2 would be and why anyone would view the #4 program in a state desirable.
Why is it ironic? Lobbying for inclusion of inclusion of the PAC schools? Not quite following.
I just dont see what step 2 would be and why anyone would view the #4 program in a state desirable.
They can only be looking at Gonzaga and all Big East schools other than UConn if they're thinking about having a basketball-only division. Is that the case? Which 5-6 Big East schools do you think they're looking at?
What do you do with all the other sports?
I myself was a 'drive by' critic of UCF a year ago. I have changed my view of that acquisition by 180 degrees. That could be the crown jewel of the Big XII expansion.
UCF is the largest university in Florida, in a booming part of the state, has on-field success and sells out a 45,000 seat stadium.
Not competitively, but culturally. BC has nothing in common with Clemson, with NC State, with Georgia Tech. The Tomahawk Chop and The Tiger Rag is foreign to people in Boston who ride the T and who think winter is for hockey, not basketball. So to with UConn in the AAC...er, Big 12. What do their fans share with Iowa State, UCF, or now BYU? When Texas Tech fans say "Guns Up!" it's a sign of welcome. Do that in Hartford and someone's calling 911.
Another example: Maryland in the Big 10. Does anyone care in Madison or Champaign when the Terrapins come to town? Maryland football attendance has actually decreased since joining the B10--an announced average of 39,848 a game last season, its lowest in 42 years. Maryland will make money but they will never be nationally competitive anymore: that's the Faustian bargain of these moves.
I may have said this before, but I really appreciate your views and takes around here. Always making good points.
I used to live and die with Nebraska football especially against the Sooners. My first game in Lincoln was some 40 years ago against the Buffs. Big 8, Orange Bowls, National Championships, Thanksgiving weekend games, it was so much fun. With my dislike for Wisconsin, it has been a fun “rivalry” at times, although Nebraska now rarely beats UW. As a fan, I do miss the historical rivalries of my youth, and I’ve also grown out of many of my emotional swings based on sports. I still sometimes get incredibly excited to be sure.100%. Nebraska - OU was the best. Texas -Texas A&M too. I too have moved past sports ups/downs…maybe 10 yrs of MU meh numbed my nerves, although my dislike for UW Dane Cty still burns hot.
PAC12 showing (more) cracks?
Colorado AD: "In a perfect world, we'd love to be in the Pac-12, but we also have to do what's right for Colorado at the end of day. We'll evaluate things as we move forward"
Funny comment coming from a school that just left the Big 12 a decade ago.They are using the UCONN playbook.
Funny comment coming from a school that just left the Big 12 a decade ago.
I would say that Xavier, Butler, and Creighton all benefited from joining the Big East. UConn as well in coming back.
But by and large, I feel that while many of these moves have been profitable for the athletic departments, how many have been good for the fans? How many fanbases of schools that made major moves feel they are in a better place now than they were 20 (or so) years ago?
In the ACC, how many of Boston College, Miami, Va Tech, Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame or Louisville feel better? Va Tech is probably the only one whose flagship program has been demonstrably better in the ACC than it was historically.
How about Nebraska, Maryland, or Rutgers in the Big 10? The only program markedly improved is Rutgers basketball, and that's probably related more to a good hire of Pikiell than league affiliation.
The Big 12 has been fantastic for TCU, there's really no arguing that, though I think it's been a clear step down for West Virginia, who is still the sore thumb of the league in terms of fit and location.
The Pac-12 added Colorado and Utah. The Buffaloes football is on life support, we'll see what Sanders does. Utah was already on the come when they entered the league and has been a strong addition. Neither basketball program has done much.
In the SEC, Mizzou and TAMU are richer, but I'm not sure they have been notably more successful. Those are probably the best case scenarios in football, though.
Honestly, I think conference realignment has been good for athletic departments and university executives, but nearly universally bad for fans. With rare exception (TCU, Va Tech) most of the programs that moved since the early 2000s shakeups have seen their levels of success decline in the sports they care most about. This is also the reason I want the Big East to stay as far away from football as it possibly can. When you start mish-mashing football programs across the country, the results are bad. Why would we want to introduce that to the one league that has been an unquestioned success since divorcing itself from the oblong devil?
Because Rutgers was primarily added to get the BTN on a primary cable tier in the NYC metro. Same with Maryland and DC.
Trilly Donovan on UConn to B12.
https://twitter.com/trillydonovan/status/1664270876538462210?s=20
Absolute nightmare for their fans and basketball program. Hope players and staff are pumped for 3-5 hour flights for every road game of the season.
Imagine being a UConn volleyball player and having to travel to Ames, Iowa to play on a Wednesday night. How effing dumb.
Ames? That's closer than Omaha.
It's the trips to Texas and Utah that are the problem.
You can get a direct flight from NYC to Omaha. How does one get from Storrs to Ames in less than a full day of travel? The school certainly isn’t chartering a private jet for girls volleyball.
But to your point, getting from Storrs to Provo to play volleyball against Mormons is even more asinine.
If it happens, I feel sorry for their fans. Not much to get excited about on the basketball side of things.
Imagine being a UConn volleyball player and having to travel to Ames, Iowa to play on a Wednesday night. How effing dumb.What about travel to Gonzaga for UConn?
You can get a direct flight from NYC to Omaha. How does one get from Storrs to Ames in less than a full day of travel? The school certainly isn’t chartering a private jet for girls volleyball.??? Would it be ok to play against bigots like yourself?
But to your point, getting from Storrs to Provo to play volleyball against Mormons is even more asinine.
??? Would it be ok to play against bigots like yourself?
Sorry, I don’t respect a religion that teaches that blacks are the cursed descendants of Cain.
Maybe we shouldn't make the same mistake others do by painting the entire religion by what those on fringes state. Not really a good look.
It’s literally in their scripture (2 Nephi 5:21; Moses 7:8) but whatever that wasn’t my point.
It’s literally in their scripture (2 Nephi 5:21; Moses 7:8) but whatever that wasn’t my point.
It’s literally in their scripture (2 Nephi 5:21; Moses 7:8) but whatever that wasn’t my point.
The Bible says women should be silent and have no authority over men, illegitimate children and any descendants of their own will no be allowed in the church, men who sleep with a virgin should pay the virgin's father and marry her, men who have gay sex should be put to death, slave owners should not be punished if they strike a slave and the slave dies as long as the slave does not die immediately, a man should marry his brother's wife if his brother dies, etc.
But yes. Those damn Mormons are terrible people who acknowledge a terrible religion.
Don’t apologize. All religion is nonsense
Sorry, I don’t respect a religion that teaches that blacks are the cursed descendants of Cain.
All this conference realignment stuff just reinforces my hatred of college football for what’s it’s doing to college sports.
So we go back to 10 teams in that case and then add 2 (St Louis as one?)
In all seriousness, conference realignment could be the best thing to happen to the Big East. All the football schools water down their natural rivalries and geographic recruiting footprints in search of the all-powerful football dollar. Meanwhile, the Big East focuses on carving out its own niche in basketball.
So we go back to 10 teams in that case and then add 2 (St Louis as one?)ST THOMAS!!!!! and whoever to round it out to 12. Maybe Gonzaga or ND. ;)
Edit: and VCU?
That said, the BE has done nothing to encourage intersectional meetings among its four football schools. UConn has played Villanova once since 1999, Villanova hasn't played Georgetown since 1950, and Georgetown has played Butler once ever.
So we go back to 10 teams in that case and then add 2 (St Louis as one?)
Edit: and VCU?
So we go back to 10 teams in that case and then add 2 (St Louis as one?)
Edit: and VCU?
you call the two good remaining WCC schools. you hope for the best. Hang up the phone after that, and wait for the Magnificent seven to implode the ACC
Honestly any expansion is about maximizing media rights revenue. As you approach the next deal, you figure out with potential partners what will be the most lucrative adds. It doesn't matter if that's VCU, SLU or Dayton.
Honestly any expansion is about maximizing media rights revenue. As you approach the next deal, you figure out with potential partners what will be the most lucrative adds. It doesn't matter if that's VCU, SLU or Dayton.
So we go back to 10 teams in that case and then add 2 (St Louis as one?)
Edit: and VCU?
Honestly any expansion is about maximizing media rights revenue. As you approach the next deal, you figure out with potential partners what will be the most lucrative adds. It doesn't matter if that's VCU, SLU or Dayton.
The Big East has to decide if it wants to have the best basketball conference top to bottom or have the best media deal.
At this point, inventory will be a bigger driver of value to the networks than individual team selection. With 11 teams today, the Big East offers media partners 10 to 11 games per week. If UConn leaves and you replace them with two new teams, inventory will increase to 12 games/week--and as discussions here have shown, there really aren't two teams you can add without diluting the quality of the league. And you're not really increasing inventory that much.
Thinking out loud, the most lucrative deal from a league standpoint might be to merge with the WCC to form a 20-team league and offer the networks a solid 4-game block on your game days. First game at 6 PM local on the east coast, the second at 8 PM eastern/7 Central, the third at 9 Central/7 Pacific, and the fourth at 9 Pacific. That would give Val more negotiating power with the nets via a doubling of the inventory she can offer.
To protect the current BE teams, you play an unbalanced schedule so you could feature your marquee matchups (Villanova/Gonzaga, Marquette Santa Clara, Creighton/St. Marys) but limit dilution of the NET ratings from playing Pepperdine or Pacific.
Let's go nuts. Take 30 of the best non-football schools and throw them in one conference with a three tier pro-rel system. When SLU is good, they can ball with Nova and MU and Gonzaga. When they suck, they'll hang out with Loyola and Bradley in some middle tier. DePaul can hang out in tier 3 but enjoy the beautiful views from Pepperdine's campus.
Imagine the joy in Minneapolis when St Thomas becomes the Luton Town of this new arrangement.
Now I'm not working because of this. Hear me out:
Division 1 (bottom 2 relegated)
Gonzaga
Marquette
Creighton
St Marys
Xavier
Providence
Nova
Seton Hall
VCU
Dayton
Division 2 (top 2 promoted, bottom 3 relegated)
St Johns
Drake
Santa Clara
Bradley
SLU
San Fran
Loyola Marymount
Butler
Duquesne
DePaul
Division 3 (top 3 promoted)
Fordham
Davidson
Seattle
George Mason
Richmond
Portland
Pepperdine
St Josephs
Pacific
Bonnie's
UMass
San Diego
Loyola Chicago
Rhode Island
Give each division a tournament and an AQ. Division 3 is a 1 bid league. Division 2 could get two in a good year. Division 1 is the best league in the country and challenges for 7-8 bids year-in and year-out.
Keep non-revenue sports in traditional alignments.
Now I'm not working because of this. Hear me out:
Division 1 (bottom 2 relegated)
Gonzaga
Marquette
Creighton
St Marys
Xavier
Providence
Nova
Seton Hall
VCU
Dayton
Division 2 (top 2 promoted, bottom 3 relegated)
St Johns
Drake
Santa Clara
Bradley
SLU
San Fran
Loyola Marymount
Butler
Duquesne
DePaul
Division 3 (top 3 promoted)
Fordham
Davidson
Seattle
George Mason
Richmond
Portland
Pepperdine
St Josephs
Pacific
Bonnie's
UMass
San Diego
Loyola Chicago
Rhode Island
Give each division a tournament and an AQ. Division 3 is a 1 bid league. Division 2 could get two in a good year. Division 1 is the best league in the country and challenges for 7-8 bids year-in and year-out.
Keep non-revenue sports in traditional alignments.
Getting players to play for this would be a tough sell IMO.That's what they get paid for.
Now I'm not working because of this. Hear me out:
Division 1 (bottom 2 relegated)
Gonzaga
Marquette
Creighton
St Marys
Xavier
Providence
Nova
Seton Hall
VCU
Dayton
Division 2 (top 2 promoted, bottom 3 relegated)
St Johns
Drake
Santa Clara
Bradley
SLU
San Fran
Loyola Marymount
Butler
Duquesne
DePaul
Division 3 (top 3 promoted)
Fordham
Davidson
Seattle
George Mason
Richmond
Portland
Pepperdine
St Josephs
Pacific
Bonnie's
UMass
San Diego
Loyola Chicago
Rhode Island
Give each division a tournament and an AQ. Division 3 is a 1 bid league. Division 2 could get two in a good year. Division 1 is the best league in the country and challenges for 7-8 bids year-in and year-out.
Keep non-revenue sports in traditional alignments.
Dayton over St. Johns? No.I think you are putting way too much thought into this.
I feel like you'd have to include some games against other divisions for it to truly be considered a single conference. How would that work?
So much shade being cast on St. John’s here lol
Dayton over St. Johns? No.
Now I'm not working because of this. Hear me out:
Division 1 (bottom 2 relegated)
Gonzaga
Marquette
Creighton
St Marys
Xavier
Providence
Nova
Seton Hall
VCU
Dayton
Division 2 (top 2 promoted, bottom 3 relegated)
St Johns
Drake
Santa Clara
Bradley
SLU
San Fran
Loyola Marymount
Butler
Duquesne
DePaul
Division 3 (top 3 promoted)
Fordham
Davidson
Seattle
George Mason
Richmond
Portland
Pepperdine
St Josephs
Pacific
Bonnie's
UMass
San Diego
Loyola Chicago
Rhode Island
Give each division a tournament and an AQ. Division 3 is a 1 bid league. Division 2 could get two in a good year. Division 1 is the best league in the country and challenges for 7-8 bids year-in and year-out.
Keep non-revenue sports in traditional alignments.
I get that the premise is that UConn will have moved elsewhere, by why no Georgetown?Who?
I get that the premise is that UConn will have moved elsewhere, by why no Georgetown?
I only get a 25 minute lunch before the freshmen come back to my classroom. Cut me some slack.
I only get a 25 minute lunch before the freshmen come back to my classroom. Cut me some slack.
Its a Friday afternoon. Put on a movie.
For those who don't understand what SaveOD did, he listed the teams in order of last season's KenPom finish
So your KenPom score will determine what division you end up in for the following season.
The Big East has to decide if it wants to have the best basketball conference top to bottom or have the best media deal.
At this point, inventory will be a bigger driver of value to the networks than individual team selection. With 11 teams today, the Big East offers media partners 10 to 11 games per week. If UConn leaves and you replace them with two new teams, inventory will increase to 12 games/week--and as discussions here have shown, there really aren't two teams you can add without diluting the quality of the league. And you're not really increasing inventory that much.
Thinking out loud, the most lucrative deal from a league standpoint might be to merge with the WCC to form a 20-team league and offer the networks a solid 4-game block on your game days. First game at 6 PM local on the east coast, the second at 8 PM eastern/7 Central, the third at 9 Central/7 Pacific, and the fourth at 9 Pacific. That would give Val more negotiating power with the nets via a doubling of the inventory she can offer.
To protect the current BE teams, you play an unbalanced schedule so you could feature your marquee matchups (Villanova/Gonzaga, Marquette Santa Clara, Creighton/St. Marys) but limit dilution of the NET ratings from playing Pepperdine or Pacific.
Honestly any expansion is about maximizing media rights revenue. As you approach the next deal, you figure out with potential partners what will be the most lucrative adds. It doesn't matter if that's VCU, SLU or Dayton.
Networks aren’t going to make it worthwhile to add a ton of content that people aren’t going to watch. I would guess the audience for even bad BE games is way bigger than the typical WCC game.
Agreed, I think Big east keeps it simple and adds 2 best available basketball only school untouched TV markets for now (assuming UCONN is gone taking us to 10 teams) rather than overloading on way too many useless WCC schools. Assuming this is what plays out I think Saint Louis is most obvious candidate with VCU, Davidson and Dayton next 3 best candidates? This is also factoring in geography and travel but if they throw that out there is many West Coast candidates (San Francisco, San Diego, etc)
A. I think the possibilities of UCONN to the Big XII are very slim. I read an article this weekend that the Big XII is "targeting tradition rich UCONN, Villanova and Marquette"; I don't buy it.
B. SLU and Dayton do nothing (for me) as expansion candidates. Backfill schools, if we loose teams, yes, but not for expansion. Plus the Big East could have added them at any time if they were viable. People smarter about this stuff don't think much of them as BE members.
anathema
So your KenPom score will determine what division you end up in for the following season.
That would be awesome, finally something meaningful to use KenPom for…
Do you think Dayton stands a chance considering they are close to the Cincinnati TV market which we already have in Xavier? They have proved to be a yearly competitive basketball school
Dayton wouldn't stand a chance if they were 500 miles from the nearest TV market.
They've been available every day for the last 11 years. I would take that as a sign of no interest on the part of the Big East.
Dayton wouldn't stand a chance if they were 500 miles from the nearest TV market.
They've been available every day for the last 11 years. I would take that as a sign of no interest on the part of the Big East.
I’d literally take Detroit Mercy before Dayton.
Rutgers was available for 20+ years, prtically begging for a Big Ten invite. They finally got one when they served a media rights purpose.
It’s likely Dayton doesn’t get an invite, but the fact they have it got one in the past isn’t really evidence of anything. If it makes their upcoming media deal more lucrative per school, the invite will come.
🙄🙄🙄 And that’s why you’re not a conference commissioner. Even Dayton’s current conference has no interest in Detroit Mercy.
Your post is internally inconsistent, do you realize that? Dayton is a city of 150k. Detroit is a city of 3.5 million.
Rutgers was available for 20+ years, prtically begging for a Big Ten invite. They finally got one when they served a media rights purpose.
It’s likely Dayton doesn’t get an invite, but the fact they have it got one in the past isn’t really evidence of anything. If it makes their upcoming media deal more lucrative per school, the invite will come.
🙄🙄🙄 And that’s why you’re not a conference commissioner. Even Dayton’s current conference has no interest in Detroit Mercy.
At a minimum, its evidence that in 2012-13 the so called "Catholic 7" had significant interest in Creighton, Xavier and Butler and no interest in Dayton.
At a minimum, its evidence that in 2012-13 the so called "Catholic 7" had significant interest in Creighton, Xavier and Butler and no interest in Dayton.
According to UDPride, the question was whether Dayton was willing to lower themselves to associate with the Catholic 7.
Your post is internally inconsistent, do you realize that? Dayton is a city of 150k. Detroit is a city of 3.5 million.
One of my recurring objections to the BE affiliating with Dayton basketball is delusion and fan stupidity.
I still don't see the point in expanding, even if UConn leaves. I find it hard to believe any school other than Gonzaga adds enough to make it a net positive for each school financially. Plus, schools like Marquette, Creighton, Xavier, and DePaul all compete against SLU and Dayton for regular students, and offering a Big East basketball experience gives us a differentiating factor for attracting those students. Elevating SLU and Dayton to the Big East will take that away.
I am by no means an expert in this, so I don't know if UConn left, whether it would be more beneficial to stay at 10, or say move to 12 with Dayton and SLU. It all comes down to the math of a TV deal.Just a hunch, but if the Big12 adds basketball schools, we're on that train with UConn, Nova, and Gonzaga.
If adding those two markets adds enough revenue to the TV deal when you divide it by 12, more goes to each school, then it would probably be worthwhile. If it ends up as less for each school than a 10 team TV deal, you don't do it. I think its really as simple as that. I don't know what the actual outcome of that math would be. But if the Big East is consulting with Fox Sports and they tell them one way or the other, that's probably the route they would go.
I'd obviously rather keep UConn and add Gonzaga to get to 12, but that may or may not be a possibility.
I still don't see the point in expanding, even if UConn leaves. I find it hard to believe any school other than Gonzaga adds enough to make it a net positive for each school financially. Plus, schools like Marquette, Creighton, Xavier, and DePaul all compete against SLU and Dayton for regular students, and offering a Big East basketball experience gives us a differentiating factor for attracting those students. Elevating SLU and Dayton to the Big East will take that away.
In the current realignment climate, the one place I would NOT want to be is a nationally recognized school that plays historically good basketball and historically crappy football.
Side question: Does UCONN lose it's tournament credits to the Big East if they bolt?
Side question: Does UCONN lose it's tournament credits to the Big East if they bolt?
Side question: Does UCONN lose it's tournament credits to the Big East if they bolt?
Your inclusion of St. Thomas makes it looks like your missing out on the running joke. MU to the Big 10 is a more likely scenario than St. Thomas to the BE.
It makes no sense to further water down the product with Dayton, SLU, Detroit, St. Thomas, VCU or even Memphis until we know more about the ACC in conference realignment. If we stay strong and somehow add Duke and Wake Forest, man we'd be good!
I don't know the details of these TV contract negotiations, but doesn't FOX currently get first dibs on all our home non-conference games as well? If they're just looking for content, all the Big East teams can still schedule non-conference games to fill that void.
The only benefit it would bring is that it would generate more content for the media partner. 11 teams playing a 20 game schedule = 110 conference games. 14 teams playing a 20 game schedule = 140 games.
Does that make the pie so much bigger that everyone benefits? IMO it is doubtful, which I think it is unlikely we will see expansion unless UConn does leave.
I don't know the details of these TV contract negotiations, but doesn't FOX currently get first dibs on all our home non-conference games as well? If they're just looking for content, all the Big East teams can still schedule non-conference games to fill that void.
Ultimately, we'll get a number with expansion and without expansion and see what's more on a per school basis, but the expansion number better be significantly bigger to justify making a change like this. I'm in the camp that we should just hang tight until we see what happens with the ACC.
The downside to SLU is that St. Louis is not a hotbed of basketball. I lived in St. Louis for several years and was always amazed that basketball just did not seem to be on the radar of many people. Two NBA teams have failed there as well as one teams in the old ABA. It is a baseball / hockey town.
If by "fail" you mean "agreed to fold the team in exchange for 1/30 of the NBA TV revenue in perpetuity," then yes, the ABA team in St. Louis failed.
If by "fail" you mean "agreed to fold the team in exchange for 1/30 of the NBA TV revenue in perpetuity," then yes, the ABA team in St. Louis failed.
Just a hunch, but if the Big12 adds basketball schools, we're on that train with UConn, Nova, and Gonzaga.
| Audience (000) | Day | Date | Game | Notes | Notes |
| 574 | Sunday | 15-Jan | Marquette/Xavier | FOX | |
| 538 | Saturday | 4-Mar | St. Johns/Marquette | FOX | |
| 302 | Saturday | 3-Dec | Marquette/Wisconsin | FS1 | |
| 298 | Tuesday | 21-Feb | Marquette/Creighton | FS1 | |
| 239 | Wednesday | 1-Feb | Villanova/Marquette | FS1 | |
| 208 | Friday | 16-Dec | Creighton/Marquette | FS1 | |
| 204 | Saturday | 31-Dec | Marquette/Villanova | FS1 |
| Audience (000) | Day | Date | Game | Notes | Notes |
| 2991 | Sunday | 25-Dec | Creighton/Depaul | FOX | |
| 1158 | Tuesday | 22-Nov | Creighton/Arkansas | ESPN | Maui |
| 1104 | Wednesday | 23-Nov | Creighton/Arizona | ESPN | Maui |
| 1092 | Saturday | 28-Jan | Xavier/Creighton | CBS | |
| 901 | Saturday | 11-Feb | Uconn/Creighton | FOX | |
| 873 | Saturday | 7-Jan | Creighton/Uconn | FOX | |
| 814 | Thursday | 1-Dec | Creighton/Texas | ESPN | Big 12/Big East |
| 730 | Saturday | 25-Feb | Creighton/Villanova | FOX | |
| 567 | Saturday | 4-Feb | Villanova/Creighton | FOX | |
| 345 | Saturday | 18-Feb | Creighton/St. Johns | FS1 | |
| 332 | Sunday | 4-Dec | Creighton/Nebraska | FS1 | |
| 323 | Tuesday | 14-Feb | Creighton/Providence | FS1 | |
| 298 | Tuesday | 21-Feb | Marquette/Creighton | FS1 | |
| 263 | Monday | 21-Nov | Creighton/Texas Tech | ESPN2 | Maui |
| 208 | Friday | 16-Dec | Creighton/Marquette | FS1 | |
| 200 | Wednesday | 8-Feb | Creighton/Seton Hall | FS1 |
I think Creighton draws the nod before Marquette based on TV audience. They're simply a bigger draw.…marquette is old money, in the bank and earning interest. If a BIG12, for example, is looking at a very national reach, MU checks boxes w/large alumni bases in major markets, i.e. Chicago, St Louis, NYC, Boston, Philly, DC. And, the Marquette basketball ‘name’ still carries some pizazz. This matters more-so than one season of tv ratings. Imo, of course.
Here's every game last season that drew more than 200,000 viewers for both teams. Even if you remove the outliers (Maui, the Christmas Day game) they consistently generated a bigger regular season audience than Marquette for both FOX and FS1 games--despite the fact that we were ahead of them in the standings almost the entire season.
Couple better TV ratings with the fact that they're a better geographic fit with most Big 12 teams and that they've been generally as good as MU has been over the last decade, and it's not a foregone conclusion that we would get a Big 12 invitation ahead of Creighton.
As an aside, Xavier probably gets the nod ahead of us as well.
Marquette 2023 Ratings:
Audience (000) Day Date Game Notes Notes 574 Sunday 15-Jan Marquette/Xavier FOX 538 Saturday 4-Mar St. Johns/Marquette FOX 302 Saturday 3-Dec Marquette/Wisconsin FS1 298 Tuesday 21-Feb Marquette/Creighton FS1 239 Wednesday 1-Feb Villanova/Marquette FS1 208 Friday 16-Dec Creighton/Marquette FS1 204 Saturday 31-Dec Marquette/Villanova FS1
Creighton 2023 Ratings
Audience (000) Day Date Game Notes Notes 2991 Sunday 25-Dec Creighton/Depaul FOX 1158 Tuesday 22-Nov Creighton/Arkansas ESPN Maui 1104 Wednesday 23-Nov Creighton/Arizona ESPN Maui 1092 Saturday 28-Jan Xavier/Creighton CBS 901 Saturday 11-Feb Uconn/Creighton FOX 873 Saturday 7-Jan Creighton/Uconn FOX 814 Thursday 1-Dec Creighton/Texas ESPN Big 12/Big East 730 Saturday 25-Feb Creighton/Villanova FOX 567 Saturday 4-Feb Villanova/Creighton FOX 345 Saturday 18-Feb Creighton/St. Johns FS1 332 Sunday 4-Dec Creighton/Nebraska FS1 323 Tuesday 14-Feb Creighton/Providence FS1 298 Tuesday 21-Feb Marquette/Creighton FS1 263 Monday 21-Nov Creighton/Texas Tech ESPN2 Maui 208 Friday 16-Dec Creighton/Marquette FS1 200 Wednesday 8-Feb Creighton/Seton Hall FS1
Marquette doesn't have a "very national reach." In the grand scheme of things, Marquette has a small but passionate fanbase.
Marquette doesn't have a "very national reach." In the grand scheme of things, Marquette has a small but passionate fanbase.i don’t necessarily disagree. However, mention MU basketball in many east coast locales…name resonates. AL’s success still paying dividends…and just when a ‘fade’ was setting in, DWade led a charge back. The Woj fade, the Smart recharge. Passionate fan base, for sure. Certainly not a Duke-class national base, but surprisingly stout.
In regards to sheer number of graduates, sure.
But I dunno man, I’ve met some Marquette grads in weird places that I’d never expected .
I think Creighton draws the nod before Marquette based on TV audience. They're simply a bigger draw.Kind of apples to oranges at that. Creighton's Fox games were against UConn. Creighton was picked much higher preseason, so they received the better TV matchups.We'll see what this year looks like.
Here's every game last season that drew more than 200,000 viewers for both teams. Even if you remove the outliers (Maui, the Christmas Day game) they consistently generated a bigger regular season audience than Marquette for both FOX and FS1 games--despite the fact that we were ahead of them in the standings almost the entire season.
Couple better TV ratings with the fact that they're a better geographic fit with most Big 12 teams and that they've been generally as good as MU has been over the last decade, and it's not a foregone conclusion that we would get a Big 12 invitation ahead of Creighton.
As an aside, Xavier probably gets the nod ahead of us as well.
Marquette 2023 Ratings:
Audience (000) Day Date Game Notes Notes 574 Sunday 15-Jan Marquette/Xavier FOX 538 Saturday 4-Mar St. Johns/Marquette FOX 302 Saturday 3-Dec Marquette/Wisconsin FS1 298 Tuesday 21-Feb Marquette/Creighton FS1 239 Wednesday 1-Feb Villanova/Marquette FS1 208 Friday 16-Dec Creighton/Marquette FS1 204 Saturday 31-Dec Marquette/Villanova FS1
Creighton 2023 Ratings
Audience (000) Day Date Game Notes Notes 2991 Sunday 25-Dec Creighton/Depaul FOX 1158 Tuesday 22-Nov Creighton/Arkansas ESPN Maui 1104 Wednesday 23-Nov Creighton/Arizona ESPN Maui 1092 Saturday 28-Jan Xavier/Creighton CBS 901 Saturday 11-Feb Uconn/Creighton FOX 873 Saturday 7-Jan Creighton/Uconn FOX 814 Thursday 1-Dec Creighton/Texas ESPN Big 12/Big East 730 Saturday 25-Feb Creighton/Villanova FOX 567 Saturday 4-Feb Villanova/Creighton FOX 345 Saturday 18-Feb Creighton/St. Johns FS1 332 Sunday 4-Dec Creighton/Nebraska FS1 323 Tuesday 14-Feb Creighton/Providence FS1 298 Tuesday 21-Feb Marquette/Creighton FS1 263 Monday 21-Nov Creighton/Texas Tech ESPN2 Maui 208 Friday 16-Dec Creighton/Marquette FS1 200 Wednesday 8-Feb Creighton/Seton Hall FS1
Reading the ESPN article https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/37781820/big-12-talks-expansion-source-says-commish-touts-plan (https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/37781820/big-12-talks-expansion-source-says-commish-touts-plan), UCONN sounds like a basketball only candidate for the Big XII, a guess to even out a theoretical Gonzaga addition. Where would UCONN put their other sports?
Regardless the article points out the presidents are not doing anything until the PAC12 mess is resolved.
Saudis could buy them.
UConn to the PGA/LIV Tour!!!well played
UConn to the PGA/LIV Tour!!!That feels more like an ND move.
I still don’t understand the Big 12’s interest in UConn. All of this is driven by the football money, which is several multiples higher than basketball. Why would the conference want to share that with another party who’s bringing very little to the football side of the equation? They just want UConn basketball that badly? But isn’t UConn’s bball’s financial impact significantly lower than adding even a middling football program?
They don’t want UConn. They want Arizona, ASU, Utah and Colorado and acting like they want UConn advances that goal.
Brett Yormark might want UConn. He seems to think basketball is an untapped market & is preparing for a future where it has a more dominant market position like football does now.
The problem is twofold. First, that future is 15-20 years away at minimum. Second, I highly doubt his athletic directors want to make trips to Storrs for the next couple decades to see if he's right.
Do you think if the Big XII were to do this, they would stop at 1 school?
If UConn is added, i think it is as a basketball only school
But also sort of this. I don't think Yormak b thinks it will be more dominant than football, but rather recognizes that they will always be a distant 3rd in football and thinks he can close the gap some by being dominant in basketball.
If UConn is added, i think it is as a basketball only school
Do you think if the Big XII were to do this, they would stop at 1 school?
If UConn is added, i think it is as a basketball only school
My guess is that when TAMU means "basketball only" he means "everything but football." I could be wrong though but that's how I took it.
... and when all this realignment sorts itself out and they create their own basketball tournament UCONN hoops will remain relevant while the NCAA fades away.
Do you think if the Big XII were to do this, they would stop at 1 school?
Big 12 leadership seems to be intent on leaking Gonzaga + UConn news. I think. they are trying to apply some heat to Utah, Colorado, SDSU etc.
... and when all this realignment sorts itself out and they create their own basketball tournament UCONN hoops will remain relevant while the NCAA fades away.
This
But also sort of this. I don't think Yormak thinks it will be more dominant than football, but rather recognizes that they will always be a distant 3rd in football and thinks he can close the gap some by being dominant in basketball.
If UConn is added, i think it is as a basketball only school
And that could be, but I'm not sure BYU, UCF, or Texas Tech want to deal with getting all their non-revenue sports to and from Storrs every year.
I don't think UConn accepts in this case unless they offer some ND type of deal of (5) guaranteed football games a year or something like that and the $$$s work.That will never happen. ND was forced to play ACC teams in football, your scenario is the mirror opposite. I can never see the Big XII being forced to surrender football games to get UCONN basketball.
I don't think UConn accepts in this case unless they offer some ND type of deal of (5) guaranteed football games a year or something like that and the $$$s work.
If Big 12 is only interested in UConn as a basketball-only (or non-football) member, wouldn’t that destroy UConn’s financial incentive to join? That’s what I’m not getting. Optimistically, maybe they’d make $5-10 million more annually than what they’re pulling in now. Is that really worth a $30+ million exit fee and millions more forfeited in tournament shares? Plus the risk of future realignment leaving them high and dry (again)?
Not to mention the additional annual cash coming to Big East members with the new media rights deal soon.
It would definitely depend on money. I don't know what UConn could make per year in the B12 with just basketball. If it is $5-10 million more a year than what they could earn in the Big East's new media rights deal, I think they 100% would go for that. They would pay off the exit fee in 3 to 6 years and then be making $5-10 million more per year from then on. They'd lose two years worth of tournament credits but keep in mind those are split amongst the conference, so it's not as large of a number as you might think. Maybe make it 5-8 years to recoup their losses before they start making 5-10 million more a year in perpetuity.
The bolded is where I think you might be wrong. I think the B12 is more stable moving forward than the Big East is. The only two conferences powerful enough to pull from the B12 are the SEC and B1G. They are both already likely approaching their saturation points and will likely only be able to poach a few more schools each. Looking at what's out there, I think the likely targets for their next round of realignment all come from the ACC and P12. Maybe one or two schools in the B12 could be poached but their properties simply aren't as valuable as the best remaining properties in the P12 and ACC. So if the B1G and SEC fill up on ACC/P12 teams and reach saturation, I don't think the B12 has to worry about realignment anymore.
The Big East on the other hand is really only safe because the future P3 (SEC, B1G, and B12) have never targeted basketball only schools before. What if that changed? We are already hearing rumblings of the B12 targeting Gonzaga and whispers of them targeting schools like Villanova, Marquette, Georgetown, and St. John's. What if after the P3 finish carving up the ACC and P12, they decide they don't want there to be a fourth power conference in basketball? They'd have money to burn and having larger basketball conferences is easier than having larger football conferences. I don't think they'd have any issues poaching the BEast's top programs if they wanted to (which is a big if).
This also doesn't even address the (remote IMHO) possibility of the P3 deciding they want to split from the NCAA. Even if that remote possibility happens I think they take along enough basketball schools to field a quality March Madness but that's far from a guarantee. You risk being left in a second tier of college athletics that no one outside of their alumni will pay to watch.
TLDR, it sucks for us fans, but if Marquette (or any other BEast school) gets offered more money to join the B12 (or SEC/B1G), I think they take it and run.
It would definitely depend on money. I don't know what UConn could make per year in the B12 with just basketball. If it is $5-10 million more a year than what they could earn in the Big East's new media rights deal, I think they 100% would go for that. They would pay off the exit fee in 3 to 6 years and then be making $5-10 million more per year from then on. They'd lose two years worth of tournament credits but keep in mind those are split amongst the conference, so it's not as large of a number as you might think. Maybe make it 5-8 years to recoup their losses before they start making 5-10 million more a year in perpetuity.
The bolded is where I think you might be wrong. I think the B12 is more stable moving forward than the Big East is. The only two conferences powerful enough to pull from the B12 are the SEC and B1G. They are both already likely approaching their saturation points and will likely only be able to poach a few more schools each. Looking at what's out there, I think the likely targets for their next round of realignment all come from the ACC and P12. Maybe one or two schools in the B12 could be poached but their properties simply aren't as valuable as the best remaining properties in the P12 and ACC. So if the B1G and SEC fill up on ACC/P12 teams and reach saturation, I don't think the B12 has to worry about realignment anymore.
The Big East on the other hand is really only safe because the future P3 (SEC, B1G, and B12) have never targeted basketball only schools before. What if that changed? We are already hearing rumblings of the B12 targeting Gonzaga and whispers of them targeting schools like Villanova, Marquette, Georgetown, and St. John's. What if after the P3 finish carving up the ACC and P12, they decide they don't want there to be a fourth power conference in basketball? They'd have money to burn and having larger basketball conferences is easier than having larger football conferences. I don't think they'd have any issues poaching the BEast's top programs if they wanted to (which is a big if).
This also doesn't even address the (remote IMHO) possibility of the P3 deciding they want to split from the NCAA. Even if that remote possibility happens I think they take along enough basketball schools to field a quality March Madness but that's far from a guarantee. You risk being left in a second tier of college athletics that no one outside of their alumni will pay to watch.
TLDR, it sucks for us fans, but if Marquette (or any other BEast school) gets offered more money to join the B12 (or SEC/B1G), I think they take it and run.
Back in 50s and 60s the NIT and NCAA were the two major tournaments with the NIT some would argue being the better tournament. To day the NIT is an after thought. I could see the NCAA fading over time. It has pretty much abrogated most of its ruling authority to the individual sports authorities already. The contract for the basketball tournament ends in 2032. Other than that what purpose does the NCAA really serve any more. I'll be in my mid 80s by then so I hope MU can snag a title by then.
Even if UConn were to make $5-10 million more in the B12 as a non-football member, that differential is likely to shrink considerably with the new Big East media deal. And it really seems like $5 million more would be a best case scenario for a non-football invitee. How much are the full football members really going to sacrifice to attract a UConn? My guess would be little to none. But would love to hear from an expert on what’s realistic there.
I think my main disagreement with your reply is in the stability of the Big 12 moving forward. We’ve had nothing approaching stability in the NCAA for decades now. It always feels easy to think this is the time things are finally settled. I personally am not betting on it. I think the Big 12 is already a ragtag group of schools with very little tying them together. Maybe media cash will be enough to keep them together. I’d bet something will break them up within 10-12 years.
I said $5-10 million more than what they would make in the new Big East media deal. I have no idea how much the B12 is willing to shell out for a basketball only school but I am fairly certain that they are more likely to overpay for UConn basketball than they are to give UConn football an equal cut of the football pie.
But what would break the Big 12 up? The only thing that has ever broken up a D1 conference is being poached by a more powerful conference. I can't see the B1G/SEC growing beyond 24 schools each and I think it's more likely they stop at 20. Once they hit that point, it would take something unprecedented to break up the B12.
$5 to $10 million extra a year would be more than enough for UConn to jump. Especially if there would be a natural place for them to get a football invite down the line should they actually get competitive.
I honestly don’t even think it would be a question.
You might be right about the money, but who would take just UConn football, even if they become even a little competitive, without the money maker that is UConn bball?
Using the $5-10 mil over a future a Big East deal as the theoretical figure, I don’t see any reason for the B12’s football members to be interested. I see even less reason for them to be interested in diluting their football pie by letting the Huskies in as full members.
From UConn’s perspective, I’d predict they’re only interested in full membership. I don’t think the economics of what the Big 12 will offer would work in a non-football deal. All this is to say I bet UConn stays put.
Re: NCAA D1 stability. Of course what drives change is top conferences poaching and bottom conferences losing. But the predictability of which conferences will be the powers in 10-20 years is significantly overrated. Programs change. Media landscapes change. Public preferences change. I get that as conferences coalesce there might be fewer variables, but I wouldn’t at all be confident in predicting SEC, B1G, and B12 as the undisputed powers for decades to come.
Um...when was the last time the SEC and B1G weren't on top? And when was the last time that the B12, P12, and ACC weren't the next three right below them? Since then, all that has happened is that those five have put even more distance between them and the rest and the SEC/BIG have distance themselves from the other three. Until college sports die or the conference model dies, the SEC and B1G will always be on top. No one is coming to usurp them. There's a little more doubt about the B12 being number 3, but the most obvious places for the B1G and SEC to expand are the ACC and P12. They won't recover by adding MWC and Sun Belt schools to replace what the B1G/SEC are eventually going to take.
Had dinner the other night with a big SMU booster. They are furiously trying to lobby for a PAC-12 or Big 12 invite.
Their basic strategy is to keep upping NIL dollars to improve performance on the football field and basketball court.
As they should be. I don't think the Big 12 will have much interest unless they really feel the need to be in the Metroplex. But it feels like an easy move for the PAC.
They already are in the metroplex with TCU.
Maybe he thinks the Big10 added UCLA after USC to get the LA market. ;D
They already are in the metroplex with TCU.
You contradicted your central point when getting back to the conference actually under discussion. Truly anything could happen with the Big 12 in the next 5-20 years. That should factor into UConn’s decision.
Less bad can happen with the B12 than the BEast in the next 5-20 years. That should factor into UConn's decision (along with several other factors, some that favor the B12, some the BEast).
Honestly, I think it is all moot for now. I don't think they will get an invite any time soon.
Totally disagree. Unless you’re in the SEC or Big 10 you’re in the same boat just shuffling deck chairs. UConn wants to join a conference that called Cinci & UCF first? Good luck.
The Big East is a known entity. The Big 12 is fly by the seat of their pants. Some days those pants are Lululemon, most days those pants are Lee jeans.
Less bad can happen with the B12 than the BEast in the next 5-20 years. That should factor into UConn's decision (along with several other factors, some that favor the B12, some the BEast).
Honestly, I think it is all moot for now. I don't think they will get an invite any time soon.
Totally disagree. Unless you’re in the SEC or Big 10 you’re in the same boat just shuffling deck chairs. UConn wants to join a conference that called Cinci & UCF first? Good luck.I agree with your take on the Big East.
The Big East is a known entity. The Big 12 is fly by the seat of their pants. Some days those pants are Lululemon, most days those pants are Lee jeans.
I agree with your take on the Big East.
Your take on the Big XII is way off. You may not understand the significance of football in relation to basketball. Then pair that with the passion and money involved with southern football and you have the 3rd most significant/powerful conference in college sports. The Big XII is legit, "little" TCU has done what Wisconsin, UCLA, Nebraska, Penn State have never accomplished by playing in the CFP championship. ALSO, the Big XII is the best in college basketball. (The Big East is a strong #2)
I completely understand the worth of hoops relative to football. What I am not sold on is the Big 12 love.
Look at the brands in the Pac-12
Oregon
Washington
Stanford
Cal
Colorado
Arizona
Utah
ASU
Washington State
Now do the top 9 of the Big 12
Kansas
West Virginia
Oklahoma State
Baylor
TCU
Iowa State
Kansas State
BYU
Cinci
Kansas (historically terrible at football) and West Va are the only flagship University's in their respective state. The rest rank in their own state like this:
Oklahoma State #2
Baylor #3 at best
TCU #4
Iowa State #2
Kansas State #2
BYU N/A
Cinci #2 but it feels like #5
It's a leftover league. And UConn wants to jump into a league that called UCF & Cinci first? For what? A seat at kid's table, maybe?
Is the PAC 12 trying to recruit Big 12 schools to jump, or is it a one way street?
I'm going to push back a little on this. The basic problem with the Big 12 is that I don't believe any of their schools would be considered the most popular programs in their state outside of Kansas and West Virginia. The rest are all "runners up" to schools in other conferences. (BYU is a little different I know.)
So I can see why the Pac 12 schools aren't really all that excited about leaving. Outside of California, they are the largest schools in their respective markets. And if they make a couple of decent additions, they might be in a better place in the long term than the Big 12 could be.
EDIT: Lens pretty much said the same thing.
TAMU, I am of the opinion that the Big 10 + SEC will each go to 20-24 teams that will define "power" football.
They aren't now. But they don't have a media deal to offer. The larger question is...who would they want?Could they get one if they poached BYU, Kansas State, TCU, Baylor and Oklahoma State?
But why does this matter? Texas is massive and football crazy. Being the #3 and #4 schools in Texas is still better than being the #1 school in Washington or Arizona.
Is it? I would bet that more people watch regular season University of Washington football games than TCU ones.
Is it? I would bet that more people watch regular season University of Washington football games than TCU ones.
This exactly why the B12 is stable. They are an established power conference with no programs in danger of being poached.
You'd be wrong. And it isn't even that close. TCU and Baylor are both ahead of Washington. Arizona isn't even top 50.
https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-zach/which-college-football-programs-were-the-most-watched-in-2022-94eca4f6acbd
Ohio State — 5.80M
Alabama — 5.11M
Michigan — 4.37M
Tennessee — 4.13M
Georgia — 3.50M
Notre Dame — 3.30M
LSU — 3.22M
Texas — 3.06M
Penn State — 3.05M
Clemson — 2.59M
Florida — 2.57M
Oregon — 2.21M
TCU — 2.20M
Southern Cal — 2.07M
Florida State — 2.03M
Nebraska — 1.98M
Michigan State — 1.91M
Texas A&M — 1.87M
Maryland — 1.864M
Auburn — 1.863M
Arkansas — 1.80M
Mississippi — 1.753M
Oklahoma — 1.748M
Oklahoma State — 1.68M
UCLA — 1.591M
Wisconsin — 1.587M
Iowa — 1.50M
Kentucky — 1.35M
Baylor — 1.32M
Kansas State — 1.23M
Indiana — 1.19M
Illinois — 1.17M
Utah — 1.16M
Washington — 1.15M
Northwestern — 1.13M
Mississippi State — 1.10M
Minnesota — 1.05M
BYU — 997K
South Carolina — 990K
Navy — 976K
Washington State — 907K
Iowa State — 882K
NC State — 881K
Purdue -870K
California — 857K
North Carolina — 849K
Stanford — 846K
Syracuse — 841K
Georgia Tech — 837K
Missouri — 793K
West Virginia — 774K
Kansas — 732K
Army — 681K
Texas Tech — 680K
Cincinnati — 653K
Pittsburgh — 650K
Oregon State — 625K
Rutgers — 618K
Miami FL— 608K
Wake Forest — 523K
UCF — 510K
Arizona — 506K
Louisville — 496K
Colorado State — 386K
Tulane — 354K
Boise State — 353K
Colorado — 352.9K
Air Force — 326K
Utah State — 324K
Boston College — 322K
Arizona State — 314K
SMU — 312K
Toledo — 306K
East Carolina — 305K
Appalachian State — 298K
What am I missing with this statement? Their two premier programs were just poached, no? SEC or Big10 gives Kansas a phone call and that conference is looking very AACish.
Understandable for most of us who are not huge college football fans. To use a frequently cited school here, TCU, I'd guess most people in Big 10 country would not put TCU and say Wisconsin or MSU at the same level. The fact is that a Wisconsin or MSU are not not really at the same level as TCU (#4 team in Texas). It just drives home the passion, expressed in all forms, for college football in the south. There is a reason a Wisconsin head coach would jump to a middle or lower level SEC school. Or a ND coach to leave for the SEC.
I stand corrected.
Would UConn stay independent for football? Or would they join big 12?
The current thinking is that any B12 invite would be non-football.
That just seems ludicrous. Their share without football would be a comparable pittance. Hard to imagine it would really make it worth it to move all their non-revenue sports there.
If the B12 decides they want UConn basketball, they can outspend the BEast and it wouldn't even be close. I'm skeptical that the B12 actually wants UConn basketball that badly. If they do, they will make it happen.
If the B12 decides they want UConn basketball, they can outspend the BEast and it wouldn't even be close. I'm skeptical that the B12 actually wants UConn basketball that badly. If they do, they will make it happen.
If the B12 offered UConn $10 million a year, they would be gone so fast it wouldn't even be a question. I honestly think UConn would go even if it were a break-even proposition. Even if it is remote, the possibility of landing their football program in a BCS conference would be worth the risk.
And brew, I don't think the extra travel would come close to $5 million a year.
The remaining Pac 12 members just verbally agreed to a grant of rights deal. The fact that no one has actually left the P12 after talking with the B12 leads me to believe that their media negotiations are going better than has been reported. I would guess that they make a media announcement soon, and that they add a couple of schools (SDSU and SMU) and continue as is.
I completely understand why the B12 added four schools after losing UT and OU, but if they knew that USC and UCLA were going to leave for the B10, they probably would have waited. UCF, BYU, Cincy and Houston are fine schools, but that means cutting the pie an extra piece - I can't see how that would be more lucrative for a school like Arizona or Arizona State.
I have lomg felt the B12 is making noise while the Pac 12 is making moves. Which is saying something bc the Pac 12 has been mismanaged for years.You maybe right but comments from Colorado and some from Arizona lead me to believe if the Pac 12 is making moves, they are not communicating them to the members. Plus, the PAC 12 has publicly indicated that they would have a deal soon since last fall; sort of undermining their credibility.
You maybe right
*may beThanks mom. I'll do better to proofread in the future. :D
Mountain West: Won't approve any exceptions for San Diego St. (https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/37881275/mountain-west-approve-exceptions-san-diego-st)
SDSU apparently requested to leave the MW before being invited to join the PAC or Big 12.
"it's not a matter of if but when we will become a full member of the @Big12Conference. We could not be happier to someday be part of one of the most exciting and forward looking conferences in college sports. UCONN is a power 5 school and we look forward to hosting some B12 games at MSG and/ or Brooklyn showcasing the best Men's & Women's college basketball conference in the NCAA. It's also important to have our football program ramp up again and help the conference establish strong NE presence."
DC-based sportswriter quoted an anonymous “major” UConn booster on twitter (https://twitter.com/JWMediaDC/status/1679443378818150400):
I’m not sure this convinces me UConn is any closer to getting the Big 12 invite. The “someday” rhetoric in particular is absurd. Sounds to me like a bitter football booster who’s trying to push this thing forward despite significant opposition (internally or/and with B12 members).
It is notable he/she specified that UConn would be a "full member." And lol at ramping up the football program "again to help the conference establish a strong NE presence." UConn working hard to get back to where they were when they took down the Sanka Coffee Alternatives Bowl back in 1987.
DC-based sportswriter quoted an anonymous “major” UConn booster on twitter (https://twitter.com/JWMediaDC/status/1679443378818150400):Unfortunately, it is turning out that Val is like Carrie Fisher in the Blue Brothers Tunnel Scene. She had U- Conn cornered ,and on the run ,when they wanted to rejoin the conference. Could have extinguished any opportunity for The Huskies to bolt again. Unfortunately, U Conn kissed and ran.
I’m not sure this convinces me UConn is any closer to getting the Big 12 invite. The “someday” rhetoric in particular is absurd. Sounds to me like a bitter football booster who’s trying to push this thing forward despite significant opposition (internally or/and with B12 members).
It is notable he/she specified that UConn would be a "full member." And lol at ramping up the football program "again to help the conference establish a strong NE presence." UConn working hard to get back to where they were when they took down the Sanka Coffee Alternatives Bowl back in 1987.
I can't fault UCONN for accepting full membership to the BIG XII.
I am surprised the BIG XII would want them.
Unfortunately, it is turning out that Val is like Carrie Fisher in the Blue Brothers Tunnel Scene. She had U- Conn cornered ,and on the run ,when they wanted to rejoin the conference. Could have extinguished any opportunity for The Huskies to bolt again. Unfortunately, U Conn kissed and ran.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftt4f2H3GDs
Even if they leave again, re-admitting UConn will have been extraordinarily lucrative for the Big East.
Yeah I mean I’d certainly be okay with Val taking this “risk” knowing that worst case the league gets $30 million it otherwise wouldn’t have had.
But UConn I doubt UConn is ever getting that phone call. If the Big 12 wanted UConn they could have called at any point in the last decade.
Disney is looking to step back from or step out of ESPN. It will be interesting to see how ESPN acts without the Disney balance sheet backing them.
Tough timing for the PAC 12.
https://twitter.com/criddlebenjamin/status/1679643857414393856?s=61&t=6XPB8f4sAKmJIzxgMcsCjw
Bob's Discount Furniture Guy?
Buffs making it official tomorrow and headed back to the Big 12.
These things always happen in pairs. So who's #2?
Arizona, ASU and Gonzaga
Buffs making it official tomorrow and headed back to the Big 12.https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38076854/colorado-discussing-move-pac-12-big-12-sources-say
UCONN. And they would be dumb to pass on an invite to the Big 12. The idea that the Big East will stay fully in tact for when 5 more years is hopeful at the absolute best. Conference realignment has been a constant in college athletics. It’s not stopping now.
I think it will stop (at the levels that matter) in the next 15-20 years I think.
UCONN. And they would be dumb to pass on an invite to the Big 12. The idea that the Big East will stay fully in tact for when 5 more years is hopeful at the absolute best. Conference realignment has been a constant in college athletics. It’s not stopping now.
Bold call
This was the wisdom of the Great Schism in 2013; it basically took the Big East out of the conference realignment madness and allowed it’s programs to differentiate themselves by devoting everything to basketball.
Oregon to Big 12??
https://twitter.com/mattprehm/status/1684337241605410816?s=46&t=HLoNtkTVfvSoDEzJafqc2g
I think it will stop (at the levels that matter) in the next 15-20 years I think. SEC and B1G will hit their saturation points and no one will be able to touch them. I think the B12 will settle in as the third power conference and will also reach saturation. Big East will be the fourth power conference in basketball. ACC/P12 will either not exist or be AAC/MWC level. Lower levels will continue to realign but few will notice.
Big question for the BEast will be if the SEC/B1G/B12 decide to start taking on basketball only schools. If they do, BEast will be gowne.
The ACC is very unstable. Seems like some school don't like the ACC, some schools don't like other schools and distrust all around. Not the best recipe for a stable future.
I think the next big issue is going to come up when the ACC grant of rights expires in 2036. Even prior to then, ACC schools are going to see the relative GOR cost decrease the closer they get to 2036.
Oregon to Big 12??
If there is an Oregon move, I'd bet on it being to the Big10.
Oregon and its Nike ties are a reasonably valuable asset and one the Big10 has looked at. If they thought it might be imminent that Oregon moves to the Big12, they may jump at them now.
The ACC is very unstable. Seems like some school don't like the ACC, some schools don't like other schools and distrust all around. Not the best recipe for a stable future.
I think it will stop (at the levels that matter) in the next 15-20 years I think. SEC and B1G will hit their saturation points and no one will be able to touch them. I think the B12 will settle in as the third power conference and will also reach saturation. Big East will be the fourth power conference in basketball. ACC/P12 will either not exist or be AAC/MWC level. Lower levels will continue to realign but few will notice.
Big question for the BEast will be if the SEC/B1G/B12 decide to start taking on basketball only schools. If they do, BEast will be gowne.
If the NCAA tournament is still around, with these leagues dissolving will there be fewer auto bids and more at large bids?
If there is an Oregon move, I'd bet on it being to the Big10.I 100% agree. Oregon could, would and should go to the B10 if invited. The possible thought processes is the B10 passed on Oregon already and the B10 is holding spots for ACC targets. Oregon may see the B12 as the best fall back option if/when the PAC12 fails and does not want to be left in the MWC if AZ, AZ ST and Utah take the final B12 spots. But who knows?
Oregon and its Nike ties are a reasonably valuable asset and one the Big10 has looked at. If they thought it might be imminent that Oregon moves to the Big12, they may jump at them now.
Oregon is valuable, but are they valuable enough to increase everyone's piece of the pie?
Big question for the BEast will be if the SEC/B1G/B12 decide to start taking on basketball only schools. If they do, BEast will be gowne.
I don't see the point of the Big Ten keeping Northwestern. What's the point anymore? Just boot them out. They can't compete with the larger schools and now with the latest scandal, it will even be tougher. Keeping them around for tradition? That went out the window eons ago when schools like Rutgers got an invite and USC and UCLA bailed the Pac. Same thing with Vanderbilt in the SEC. Are they concerned about overall GPA or something? It's a new world. I don't like it, but schools like Rutgers, NW, Vanderbilt - they just can't compete in those power leagues.
I don't see the point of the Big Ten keeping Northwestern. What's the point anymore? Just boot them out. They can't compete with the larger schools and now with the latest scandal, it will even be tougher. Keeping them around for tradition? That went out the window eons ago when schools like Rutgers got an invite and USC and UCLA bailed the Pac. Same thing with Vanderbilt in the SEC. Are they concerned about overall GPA or something? It's a new world. I don't like it, but schools like Rutgers, NW, Vanderbilt - they just can't compete in those power leagues.
I doubt we see leagues fully dissolve and give up their auto-bid. But we might see a VERY watered down Pac12 with schools moving up from D2 or D3 to backfill the WAC/MVC.
Big East is not going anywhere. Besides, with its eclectic mix of 30 sports, disparate funding, and facilities, I couldn't see another conference even considering schools like Georgetown at this point.
Depends on if Phil Knight/Nike are willing to make it worth it.
Also, with Colorado leaving, it's hard to believe at least 1 more school won't leave.
That likely leaves the PAC12 inviting San Diego State and SMU. Their market viability isn't looking pretty.
I think basketball conferences could be larger than football conferences so one way to grow would be to add basketball only schools.
Who is a "basketball-only" school? When your athletic department fields 20, 25, 30 or more sports, those are not insignificant investments.
If the NCAA allowed schools to field a minimum of one sport (e.g., basketball), would Marquette do this? No.
A basketball school only school is a commonly used term for schools with a basketball program but no football program. I assume you know this.
The Athletic is reporting that while the Big 12 is still courting Pac-12 schools, what commissioner Brett Yormark "wants to sell his members on is UConn."I can follow the logic. I also know commissioners don't always get what they want, like in the Big10. School presidents make the calls and ADs have the loudest voice in the president's ears.
In UConn, Yormark sees something that other Big 12 leaders don’t. They think football first and have their doubts that UConn football can become relevant. The recent track record — 27-83 since 2013 — is hard to ignore. They see the success in men’s and women’s basketball as undeniably attractive, but it’s less easy to get them to buy the pitch that UConn adds value for this league, in part because these presidents, chancellors and ADs have spent the past year locked in on trying to land Power 5 football schools.
But Yormark sees an entry point into New York City. He sees a dominant basketball conference and big-time events at Madison Square Garden. He sees a future in which the Big 12 makes more money down the road by decoupling its media rights package and selling its basketball rights separately. Conference sources say he sees a sort of buy-low opportunity here, a bet that the Big 12 investing in UConn over the rest of the decade will drive up the conference’s value. For him, there’s no hesitation. There’s real conviction.
If there is an Oregon move, I'd bet on it being to the Big10.
Oregon and its Nike ties are a reasonably valuable asset and one the Big10 has looked at. If they thought it might be imminent that Oregon moves to the Big12, they may jump at them now.
The Athletic is reporting that while the Big 12 is still courting Pac-12 schools, what commissioner Brett Yormark "wants to sell his members on is UConn."
In UConn, Yormark sees something that other Big 12 leaders don’t. They think football first and have their doubts that UConn football can become relevant. The recent track record — 27-83 since 2013 — is hard to ignore. They see the success in men’s and women’s basketball as undeniably attractive, but it’s less easy to get them to buy the pitch that UConn adds value for this league, in part because these presidents, chancellors and ADs have spent the past year locked in on trying to land Power 5 football schools.
But Yormark sees an entry point into New York City. He sees a dominant basketball conference and big-time events at Madison Square Garden. He sees a future in which the Big 12 makes more money down the road by decoupling its media rights package and selling its basketball rights separately. Conference sources say he sees a sort of buy-low opportunity here, a bet that the Big 12 investing in UConn over the rest of the decade will drive up the conference’s value. For him, there’s no hesitation. There’s real conviction.
Oregon and Washington to the Big10
Big 12 will probably make a play for Arizona or ASU
It also applies to a school where basketball is the only sport a school federates (e.g., joins) in a conference, much as Navy is "football only" in the AAC but has a full collection of other programs elsewhere. There are no schools that I am aware of play only basketball within the confines of one Division I conference and park its other sports elsewhere.
Besides losing Colorado and potentially others to the Big 12, the Pac-12’s biggest remaining brand names — Oregon and Washington — held meetings in August with the Big Ten about potential membership, Action Network reported.
The Ducks and Huskies already have been “vetted and approved” by the Big Ten to join the conference, sources said. However, the Big Ten does not want “the Pac-12’s blood on its hands,” by taking Oregon and Washington before any other schools leave the Pac-12, sources said.
In the Big 12’s new Grant of Rights, ESPN’s contract guaranteed pro-rata — the same revenue ($20 million per school annually) — if the Big 12 added additional Power 5 schools. FOX was not contractually obligated to match its revenue ($11.7 million per school annually), but the network has agreed to do so if the Big 12 added other Power 5 schools, sources told Action Network.
This guarantees Colorado — and any other Power 5 schools moving to the Big 12 — a full media rights share of nearly $32 million in the Big 12 starting in 2025, sources said.
If these sources are correct, it sounds like the B1G has already decided that they will be adding Washington and Oregon at some point in the future, only question is when.
Credit to Andrei for sharing this article with me: https://www.actionnetwork.com/ncaaf/colorado-leaving-pac-12-to-join-big-12
Two interesting points:
If these sources are correct, it sounds like the B1G has already decided that they will be adding Washington and Oregon at some point in the future, only question is when.
If these sources are correct, there are two big takeaways:
1. ESPN and FOX is actively incentivizing the Big 12 (and probably the SEC and B1G as well) to kill the ACC and P12
2. No way UConn is getting an invite any time soon, at least not as a full member.
It may be true that UConn eventually gets a Big 12 invitation, but it is hard for me to imagine given UConn's pathetic football program. But, strange things happen all the time in college sports. Perhaps there will come a day when universities put their football programs in one conference and basketball programs in a different conference. Actually, that might make a lot of sense. One thing I am certain of, however, is that the NCAA will not be the source of a solution nor even a meaningful contributor toward a solution.
Credit to Andrei for sharing this article with me: https://www.actionnetwork.com/ncaaf/colorado-leaving-pac-12-to-join-big-12
Two interesting points:
If these sources are correct, it sounds like the B1G has already decided that they will be adding Washington and Oregon at some point in the future, only question is when.
If these sources are correct, there are two big takeaways:
1. ESPN and FOX is actively incentivizing the Big 12 (and probably the SEC and B1G as well) to kill the ACC and P12
2. No way UConn is getting an invite any time soon, at least not as a full member.
Someone was reporting locally that ESPN this time around was pushing the Big 12 to take UConn. No idea if true and hadn't seen elsewhere..
Well then I guess I would be wrong.
But that really is a dumb reason to not invite them now.
There was a really good article in the Athletic. The TLDR is that The Big 12 wants to separate its TV deals for football and basketball to maximize revenue and that adding UConn would bring value to the basketball TV deal. Super weird in this day and age of football being king, but it really is a basketball play at the end of the day.
Separating out the TV deals also opens the door to inviting non-football members at some point.
San Diego State, SMU , Fresno State and UNLV discussed
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/pac-12-expansion-candidates-san-diego-state-smu-among-targets-to-stabilize-league-after-colorado-exit/amp/
1. ESPN and FOX is actively incentivizing the Big 12 (and probably the SEC and B1G as well) to kill the ACC and PAC12.
I don’t get this part. Why would ESPN want to kill off 2 of the 6 big conferences? Wouldn’t you want more conferences chasing the same TV revenue? If I’m a buyer of content, I want more content to choose between and play against.
I guess it may be to keep Apple and Netlix out, but if so they’re already leaving the door wide open with the Pac12 so that doesn’t seem to be it.
I don’t get this part. Why would ESPN want to kill off 2 of the 6 big conferences? Wouldn’t you want more conferences chasing the same TV revenue? If I’m a buyer of content, I want more content to choose between and play against.Your thoughts on supply and demand are correct. I think you give ESPN too much credit for being business savvy.
I guess it may be to keep Apple and Netlix out, but if so they’re already leaving the door wide open with the Pac12 so that doesn’t seem to be it.
I don’t get this part. Why would ESPN want to kill off 2 of the 6 big conferences? Wouldn’t you want more conferences chasing the same TV revenue? If I’m a buyer of content, I want more content to choose between and play against.
I guess it may be to keep Apple and Netlix out, but if so they’re already leaving the door wide open with the Pac12 so that doesn’t seem to be it.
Your thoughts on supply and demand are correct. I think you give ESPN too much credit for being business savvy.
That may change as it looks like Disney is going to stop paying ESPN's Visa bill and kick them out of the basement bedroom. ESPN is going have to live within their means not their wants.
Igor looking for a partner, not a sale. ABC television network on the block. Iger loves sports, started as a scheduler for ABC Sports back in the day. Disney will maintain an interest.I thought the article in WSJ said either partner or sale, but the overall point stands I believe. Unless the partner is LIV, ESPN is going to have to pay its own bills. The Bank of Mickey Mouse is being shut off.
I thought the article in WSJ said either partner or sale, but the overall point stands I believe. Unless the partner is LIV, ESPN is going to have to pay its own bills. The Bank of Mickey Mouse is being shut off.
I thought the article in WSJ said either partner or sale, but the overall point stands I believe. Unless the partner is LIV, ESPN is going to have to pay its own bills. The Bank of Mickey Mouse is being shut off.
Isn’t what ESPN is seeking more and less a hedge against the massive value of their rights payouts? That by partnering with some of the leagues / conferences, they can be sheltered on a potential downside while sharing in a potential upside?
If it turns out that Clemson and Florida State end up in the BIG, the SEC really got out-maneuvered. That will be a prize football recruiting ground the BIG is tapping into, and it is surprising the SEC would let that happen.Does Florida State cast a wider net for viewers than Miami?
If it turns out that Clemson and Florida State end up in the BIG, the SEC really got out-maneuvered. That will be a prize football recruiting ground the BIG is tapping into, and it is surprising the SEC would let that happen.
A. Clemson and FSU aren’t leaving the ACC until the lawyers are certain they can
B. Let’s not act the SEC needs either for recruiting purposes or that this makes it easier for the Big Ten to recruit these areas. The Big Ten gets plenty of kids out of Florida
C. I believe if the Big Ten is taking Clemson and FSU, they’d be inclined to take UNC and Virginia over Washington and Oregon
C.
Don't leave us hanging....what is the 2nd C?
FWIW...
Barstool Sports' Jack McGuire is hearing a rumor that the Big Ten is adding four schools this week: Clemson, Florida State, Oregon and Washington.
If this is all true (BIG if), that leaves 7 teams in the PAC. I believe that is not even enough to get an autobid in the NCAA tournament (I think you need 8?)...so basically, the conference would be dead....leaving as members:
Arizona
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Oregon State
Utah
Washington State
Does the PAC try to plug the gaps with San Diego State, UNLV, Colorado State to get back to 10 teams? IMO, this might buy them a couple years but if I am Stanford, Cal, or Arizona I am not staying in that conference for very long.
If this is all true (BIG if), that leaves 7 teams in the PAC. I believe that is not even enough to get an autobid in the NCAA tournament (I think you need 8?)...so basically, the conference would be dead....leaving as members:First, I agree this is a BIG IF.
Arizona
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Oregon State
Utah
Washington State
Does the PAC try to plug the gaps with San Diego State, UNLV, Colorado State to get back to 10 teams? IMO, this might buy them a couple years but if I am Stanford, Cal, or Arizona I am not staying in that conference for very long.
First, I agree this is a BIG IF.
Second, if this happens and the PAC? extends offers to the schools above, do they accept? They could be the only schools in the conference in 1 year, with the others bolting for the Big12. Is it better to hang in the MWC and pick up the scraps?
UVA & UNC must be set on going to the SEC. Agree that UVA & UNC feels more B10 and Clemson & FSU feels more SEC.
Getting UW + Oregon is smart. Gives them great programming for late window with games on west coast.
If this is all true (BIG if), that leaves 7 teams in the PAC. I believe that is not even enough to get an autobid in the NCAA tournament (I think you need 8?)...so basically, the conference would be dead....leaving as members:
Arizona
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Oregon State
Utah
Washington State
Does the PAC try to plug the gaps with San Diego State, UNLV, Colorado State to get back to 10 teams? IMO, this might buy them a couple years but if I am Stanford, Cal, or Arizona I am not staying in that conference for very long.
If this is all true (BIG if), that leaves 7 teams in the PAC. I believe that is not even enough to get an autobid in the NCAA tournament (I think you need 8?)...so basically, the conference would be dead....leaving as members:
Arizona
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Oregon State
Utah
Washington State
Does the PAC try to plug the gaps with San Diego State, UNLV, Colorado State to get back to 10 teams? IMO, this might buy them a couple years but if I am Stanford, Cal, or Arizona I am not staying in that conference for very long.
First, I agree this is a BIG IF.
Second, if this happens and the PAC? extends offers to the schools above, do they accept? They could be the only schools in the conference in 1 year, with the others bolting for the Big12. Is it better to hang in the MWC and pick up the scraps?
There are only so many Power 3 lottery tickets left. A lot of teams going to have to come to reality soon.
This. We keep seeing references to more and more schools allegedly trying to go to the SEC, Big Bazillion or Big 12, but there has to be a saturation point for each conference.In addition to saturation point, the Pac 12 is still an Autonomy Conference with a guaranteed Jan 1 Bowl. If they get some kind of reasonable post USC/UCLA TV deal they should be able to cobble together a conference .
We will know the answers soon. Media Rights deal to be presented to schools.Rumors are $21 million per school per year. Mostly streaming.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/pac-12-commissioner-george-kliavkoff-set-to-present-media-rights-deal-to-member-schools-per-reports/
In addition to saturation point, the Pac 12 is still an Autonomy Conference with a guaranteed Jan 1 Bowl.
Rumors are $21 million per school per year. Mostly streaming.
How long is the guarantee for? Is it iron-clad?Autonomy Conference which means it can set its own rules and deals is part of the NCAA restructuring in 2014.
31 > 21 = U of A emergency BofR meeting.
https://theathletic.com/3744588/2022/10/30/big-12-rights-espn-fox/
If this is all true (BIG if), that leaves 7 teams in the PAC. I believe that is not even enough to get an autobid in the NCAA tournament (I think you need 8?)...so basically, the conference would be dead....leaving as members:
Arizona
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Oregon State
Utah
Washington State
Does the PAC try to plug the gaps with San Diego State, UNLV, Colorado State to get back to 10 teams? IMO, this might buy them a couple years but if I am Stanford, Cal, or Arizona I am not staying in that conference for very long.
Losing USC and UCLA for sure equals lower Pac-12 media rights. However remaining gains and losses may still enable low 20s million per year which would still comfortably make Pac-12the 5th best conference from media rights perspective. Of course if they lose Utah and ASU it then starts too feel like Mountain West 2.0
Pac-12 gained and lost MSA
Lost
Denver 3 million
Tucson 1.2 million
Gained
San Diego 3.2 million
Dallas 7.9 million
And potentially
Las Vegas 2.3 million
Boise 0.8
Losing USC and UCLA for sure equals lower Pac-12 media rights. However remaining gains and losses may still enable low 20s million per year which would still comfortably make Pac-12the 5th best conference from media rights perspective. Of course if they lose Utah and ASU it then starts too feel like Mountain West 2.0Adding SMU to get the DFW market is like the A10 adding Loyola to get the Chicago market.
Pac-12 gained and lost MSA
Lost
Denver 3 million
Tucson 1.2 million
Gained
San Diego 3.2 million
Dallas 7.9 million
And potentially
Las Vegas 2.3 million
Boise 0.8
Adding SMU to get the DFW market is like the A10 adding Loyola to get the Chicago market.Yes it is just like that.
Yes it is just like that.And how much did the A10 TV deal change with the 10 mil Chicago market in hand?
And how much did the A10 TV deal change with the 10 mil Chicago market in hand?
Can someone remind me how much each Big East team currently gets with our deal with Fox Sports?
I know the deal is up for renewal soon.
Nevermind, I found it myself. North of $4 million per team per year. Should roughly double with the next deal. Not bad for basketball only
When is the current contract up? After this year? Does that mean we should hear about the new one pretty soon?
Arizona to Big12 tomorrow?
2025. Based on what I found online, negotiations began this year, so I suspect we will find out sometime in late 2023 or early 2024.Hopefully the Big XII doesn't jump in front of us to get a deal done first.
More info: https://ncaahoopsdigest.com/2021/06/18/the-big-easts-media-marriage-life-beyond-2025-with-fs1/
Losing USC and UCLA for sure equals lower Pac-12 media rights. However remaining gains and losses may still enable low 20s million per year which would still comfortably make Pac-12the 5th best conference from media rights perspective.
The gap will only increase when(not if) Oregon and Washington leave.
Being the 5th place conference from a media right perspective is an utter failure by Pac 12 leadership. B10 schools will be receiving four times as much annually. Ten years ago the P12's contract was about 2/3 of the B10s.
The gap will only increase when(not if) Oregon and Washington leave.
BTW, everyone is saying Arizona is leaving for the B12 and points to the fact that their Board of Regents is meeting tomorrow in Tucson. However the Regents oversee both Arizona AND Arizona State, so I think they both might be gone.
If those two schools leave, as well as Arizona and ASU, then the rest basically have to merge with the Mountain West and it will no longer be considered a major conference.
BTW, everyone is saying Arizona is leaving for the B12 and points to the fact that their Board of Regents is meeting tomorrow in Tucson. However the Regents oversee both Arizona AND Arizona State, so I think they both might be gone.
I have no sources but I thought I remember someone saying here on Scoop that Arizona and ASU have some of thing in place where they will only go to a new conference together. Like they have to invite both for one of them to accept. No idea if this is true or not.
I have no sources but I thought I remember someone saying here on Scoop that Arizona and ASU have some of thing in place where they will only go to a new conference together. Like they have to invite both for one of them to accept. No idea if this is true or not.
And how much did the A10 TV deal change with the 10 mil Chicago market in hand?Exactly nothing. 8-)
I have no sources but I thought I remember someone saying here on Scoop that Arizona and ASU have some of thing in place where they will only go to a new conference together. Like they have to invite both for one of them to accept. No idea if this is true or not.
Arizona, Arizona State, and Utah may be a 3 or nothing situation.
I just don't see any way that a significant number of people are going to subscribe to this service. I think so much of the eyeballs around college football, for example, are the people who will watch any college football game. For instance, I love watching a good ole SEC battle under the lights on a Saturday night when I have nothing going on, but I'm not going to subscribe to anything extra to do so.
I just don't see any way that a significant number of people are going to subscribe to this service. I think so much of the eyeballs around college football, for example, are the people who will watch any college football game. For instance, I love watching a good ole SEC battle under the lights on a Saturday night when I have nothing going on, but I'm not going to subscribe to anything extra to do so.Well, it is the Conference of Champions.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/insider/story/_/id/38109648/college-realignment-buzz-pac-12-big-12-arizona-nexthttps://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38116124/sources-pac-12-leaders-presented-apple-streaming-deal
Also Thamel, the deal presented to Pac 12 today was Apple, less than Big 12 $ but potentially more $ with incentives.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/insider/story/_/id/38109648/college-realignment-buzz-pac-12-big-12-arizona-next
Also Thamel, the deal presented to Pac 12 today was Apple, less than Big 12 $ but potentially more $ with incentives.
Less guaranteed money than the Big 12, with significantly less exposure. The escalators in this proposed deal weren’t even hit by the MLS after they signed Messi. While schools like Washington State and Oregon State would probably love nothing more than to sign and keep the PAC together, Arizona, Oregon and Washington will not have any interest in signing.
If Arizona leaves, it could further devalue the league value even further.
Between this deal and the recommended expansion additions of Rice, Tulane and UNLV (with SDSU and SMU) by PAC mouthpieces Wilner and Constanzo, there’s plenty of red flags here that should give alarm to the schools.
I just don't see any way that a significant number of people are going to subscribe to this service. I think so much of the eyeballs around college football, for example, are the people who will watch any college football game. For instance, I love watching a good ole SEC battle under the lights on a Saturday night when I have nothing going on, but I'm not going to subscribe to anything extra to do so.
I, as a Christian, don’t gamble but many charlatans do
Less guaranteed money than the Big 12, with significantly less exposure. The escalators in this proposed deal weren’t even hit by the MLS after they signed Messi. While schools like Washington State and Oregon State would probably love nothing more than to sign and keep the PAC together, Arizona, Oregon and Washington will not have any interest in signing.
If Arizona leaves, it could further devalue the league value even further.
Between this deal and the recommended expansion additions of Rice, Tulane and UNLV (with SDSU and SMU) by PAC mouthpieces Wilner and Constanzo, there’s plenty of red flags here that should give alarm to the schools.
Yeah I think a PAC remnant-Mountain West merger (retaining PAC name, although it will more closely resemble the Mountain West plus Oregon State, Washington State, and a few others) is becoming more likely.It's logical to think Cal & Stanford will be in a power conference. I'm starting to think Stanford goes independent and Cal MWC. I think Cal's interest in sports is akin to the Ivy League schools. Just a guess.
I still think a Power Conference (BIG?) will pick up Cal and Stanford when all is said and done.
It's logical to think Cal & Stanford will be in a power conference. I'm starting to think Stanford goes independent and Cal MWC. I think Cal's interest in sports is akin to the Ivy League schools. Just a guess.Knowing both Cal and Stanford alums, there is no way one would allow the other to be in a better conference.
It's logical to think Cal & Stanford will be in a power conference. I'm starting to think Stanford goes independent and Cal MWC. I think Cal's interest in sports is akin to the Ivy League schools. Just a guess.
One of them will end up somewhere, but I'm not sure there is a place for both.The collapse of the ounce proud Pac-12 is the 2.0 version of what happened to the once proud Southwest Conference .
In the end, I think we will get to 3 power conferences of 20 teams each.
Big10 (most likely candidates)
FSU or Miami (get a Florida school, FSU might be strongly targeted by the SEC)
Notre Dame
Oregon
Washington
SEC
UNC
Clemson (I know mentioned to the Big10, but I don't think the SEC lets them get away)
Virginia
Georgia Tech (or FSU if they target them)
Big12
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Georgia Tech/Miami (whichever is left after the Big10 and SEC pick)
Louisville
That leaves 2 seats left at the table. Who gets them. I think the Big12 grabs a California school, so either Cal or Stanford gets a seat at the table.
Curious as to what others think.
ACC has a very strong grant of rights , which have been thoroughly reviewed . Nothing can happen till 2036. It is possible an individual school could pony up a big exit fee, bit very unlikely.
Most seem to think that the Big 12 is going to pick up Arizona, Arizona State, and Utah. I'm not an expert in this area, but would Arizona State and Utah be redundant to the Big 12? I think Arizona brings in Phoenix as much as Arizona State does and BYU already brings in the tiny SLC market. Utah is at least a decent football program I guess. Does it make more sense for the Big 12 to grab Arizona and then a school like Cal, Stanford, or even San Diego State to establish a presence in California?
One of them will end up somewhere, but I'm not sure there is a place for both.
In the end, I think we will get to 3 power conferences of 20 teams each.
Big10 (most likely candidates)
FSU or Miami (get a Florida school, FSU might be strongly targeted by the SEC)
Notre Dame
Oregon
Washington
SEC
UNC
Clemson (I know mentioned to the Big10, but I don't think the SEC lets them get away)
Virginia
Georgia Tech (or FSU if they target them)
Big12
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Georgia Tech/Miami (whichever is left after the Big10 and SEC pick)
Louisville
That leaves 2 seats left at the table. Who gets them. I think the Big12 grabs a California school, so either Cal or Stanford gets a seat at the table.
Curious as to what others think.
It is my understanding that if enough schools join in, they could vote to dissolve the ACC thereby ending the GoR. If this is true, I think after the PAC 12 is thoroughly demolished, the Power 3 will coordinate and make enough offers between the three of them to ACC schools to secure the votes necessary to dissolve the ACC.Dissolving a corporation does not extinguish the underlying obligations and liabilities . Typically contracts are very tight and cover successors and assigns etc The ACC GofR lasts till 2036 so very cost prohibitive to escape even on a negotiated basis. This is why the ACC has gone to asymmetrical profit sharing to placate certain schools in the meantime.
Dissolving a corporation does not extinguish the underlying obligations and liabilities . Typically contracts are very tight and cover successors and assigns etc The ACC GofR lasts till 2036 so very cost prohibitive to escape even on a negotiated basis. This is why the ACC has gone to asymmetrical profit sharing to placate certain schools in the meantime.
And I’m not sure how much “California” you grab with Cal and Stanford.
Time for the Big East to think big
You forgot Duke.
I mean that's the Bay Area between the two of them, which isn't nothing.
I think Duke will get picked up.I don't see any football schools coming to the BE, unless the BE returns to a split football / basketball setup (yuck). There will be enough football schools to form an all sports conference. AAC on steroids. Maybe including UCONN.
Some disagree with me. But I don't think we land Duke.
You forgot Duke.
I think Duke will get picked up.
Some disagree with me. But I don't think we land Duke.
Bear in mind some of these conferences may expand to as many as 24 teams. There will be some strays, but not that many. It is going to be the real bottom of the barrel left from the ACC. Which begs the question....will we even want the BCs of the world? They will be there for the picking but I think the Big East should also be a little choosey. We would be fine with 12 teams. I'm fine with picking up a program that would add value, but we don't need all of the ACC's backwash either. Maybe Syracuse, because of the history and rivalry in the Big East. But Wake? BC? I'm not sure.
Personally, I think Duke gets a B12 invite. The B12 highly values basketball, and it gets them a marquee name.
That's also why I slated Louisville to the B12.
Those "extra 2 seats at the table" for the B12 I think go to a California school, and Duke, but Duke to the B12 sounds so weird to me.
The PAC 12 will be dead by Friday.
Dissolving a corporation does not extinguish the underlying obligations and liabilities . Typically contracts are very tight and cover successors and assigns etc The ACC GofR lasts till 2036 so very cost prohibitive to escape even on a negotiated basis. This is why the ACC has gone to asymmetrical profit sharing to placate certain schools in the meantime.
The GoR is a contact between the schools and the conference, no one else. If the conference no longer exists who can enforce the GoR?ESPN relied on the GoR in making its media rights contract with ACC. That is why there are big penalties and large negotiated payments for release when a school leaves. Makes no business sense for ESPN to go from paying 40 million a year for ACC schools to double that in another conference they have rights to. No network willingly wants to increase their cost of content. ESPN, and their ACC network, loves the ACC status quo.
As for the television contracts, I promise you that ESPN will happily let them out of any obligations. They are actively incentivizing the Power 3 to pach from the ACC.
As soon as enough ACC schools get Power 3 invites, the ACC is doomed.
ESPN relied on the GoR in making its media rights contract with ACC. That is why there are big penalties and large negotiated payments for release when a school leaves. Makes no business sense for ESPN to go from paying 40 million a year for ACC schools to double that in another conference they have rights to. No network willingly wants to increase their cost of content. ESPN, and their ACC network, loves the ACC status quo.
The only ACC schools worth poaching from an eyeballs perspective are Duke and UNC in basketball, which doesn't materially drive economics of these deals ; and Clemson in Football. The current schools in the poaching conferences don't want to dilute their present compensation.
It is possible that Florida State has some big donor to put up the 9 figures needed to escape . Not sure how many of the others are willing to come up with the coin.
So dissolving the ACC would end the GoR.
All of what your wrote is exactly why ESPN is pushing to kill the ACC. They can consolidate the few schools worth paying for under one of their other properties and then offer the leftovers an AAC level contract. This would save them tens of millions.
If ESPN isn't trying to kill the ACC, why has it offered to automatically add 20 million a year to the Big 12s contact if they poach another P5 school? If the liked the status quo, they wouldn't be incentivizing the B12 to poach ACC teams.
I'm not disagreeing that ESPN is comfortable with the Big 12 adding ACC teams, but you could argue that it was the Big 12 who pushed to include that clause in the deal.
Do you think the Big 12 is starting to have buyer's remorse with the quality/quantity of their 2023 additions (BYU, UCF, Cinci, & Houston) compared to what's likely available in the short term (Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, Utah) and long term (SEC & B1G likely can't gobble up all the good ACC assets)?
Hindsight's obviously 20/20 and the Big 12 was teetering a bit after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, but there was no/is no foreseeable future competition to poach Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, & Utah. Grant it, poaching the PAC12 got a lot easier in 2022 with the B1G grabbing the best assets in USC & UCLA, and now the possibility of grabbing the next best in Oregon & Washington. Splitting the Big 12's revenue pie with some of those 2023 additions moving forward has to come with a pinch of regret. If the B1G & SEC do raid the ACC sometime between now & 2036 and each grow to 20 teams (say grabbing FSU, UNC, UVA, Clemson, ND, & Miami), there are still some good middle-tier ACC assets (VT, Duke, GT, NCST) that would be open to a Big 12 life raft.
I guess what I'm asking is, if you were the Big 12 after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, how would you rank the list below of realistic assets to pursue/wait for?
1. Arizona
2. Colorado
3. Cal
4. Stanford
5. Potential ACC Team to be named later
6. Potential ACC Team to be named later
7. BYU
8. UCF
9. ASU
10. Utah
11. Houston
12. Cinci
No. BYU is a good brand and UCF gets you into Florida, fwiw. The top Floridia schools will be either SEC or Big Ten bound. As for Cincinnati and Houston, well, there’s probably some regretAlso, big picture it is possible without those four additions at that time, the Big 12 does not get the big TV deal, falls apart and the PAC12 and ACC are sitting pretty right now. I think the Big12 is more than happy with those schools.
Do you think the Big 12 is starting to have buyer's remorse with the quality/quantity of their 2023 additions (BYU, UCF, Cinci, & Houston) compared to what's likely available in the short term (Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, Utah) and long term (SEC & B1G likely can't gobble up all the good ACC assets)?
Hindsight's obviously 20/20 and the Big 12 was teetering a bit after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, but there was no/is no foreseeable future competition to poach Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, & Utah. Grant it, poaching the PAC12 got a lot easier in 2022 with the B1G grabbing the best assets in USC & UCLA, and now the possibility of grabbing the next best in Oregon & Washington. Splitting the Big 12's revenue pie with some of those 2023 additions moving forward has to come with a pinch of regret. If the B1G & SEC do raid the ACC sometime between now & 2036 and each grow to 20 teams (say grabbing FSU, UNC, UVA, Clemson, ND, & Miami), there are still some good middle-tier ACC assets (VT, Duke, GT, NCST) that would be open to a Big 12 life raft.
I guess what I'm asking is, if you were the Big 12 after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, how would you rank the list below of realistic assets to pursue/wait for?
1. Arizona
2. Colorado
3. Cal
4. Stanford
5. Potential ACC Team to be named later
6. Potential ACC Team to be named later
7. BYU
8. UCF
9. ASU
10. Utah
11. Houston
12. Cinci
Well, it is the Conference of Champions.
No, I don't think they have any buyer's remorse. With the addition of Colorado, they are at 13 schools. Even with the possible addition of Utah, Arizona and ASU, they'll still only be at 16. Same size as the B10 after USC and UCLA join and the SEC after Texas and Oklahoma join.
And without those four, they don't get the media rights deal they ended up getting - the one where they skipped in front of the Pac 12. If they don't expand when they did, they'd be the ones breaking apart. And remember in this deal, current members see no decrease in rights fees if a P5 schools is added. It was a brilliant move by the conference.
The Pac 12 should have been bold. In retrospect, when Texas and Oklahoma left the B12, they should have tried to pick apart the rest and add Texas Tech, TCU, Oklahoma State and the two Kansas schools. But they played it safe, watched their two greatest assets leave, and waited for a market to come to them - and it never came.
But for argument sake, I would suggest that UCF and BYU for sure move the needle more than Stanford and Cal. Probably Houston too.
Personally, I thought the Big 12 was dead the day Texas and Oklahoma left. They've somehow persevered, and instead of them being dead, they're in a spot to claim a couple of schools from the rotting corpse that is the PAC12. The Big 12 governing board should be praised for their navigation of a no win situation into positioning themselves at the third best conference... albeit quite a bit behind the top two.
Do you think the Big 12 is starting to have buyer's remorse with the quality/quantity of their 2023 additions (BYU, UCF, Cinci, & Houston) compared to what's likely available in the short term (Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, Utah) and long term (SEC & B1G likely can't gobble up all the good ACC assets)?
Hindsight's obviously 20/20 and the Big 12 was teetering a bit after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, but there was no/is no foreseeable future competition to poach Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, & Utah. Grant it, poaching the PAC12 got a lot easier in 2022 with the B1G grabbing the best assets in USC & UCLA, and now the possibility of grabbing the next best in Oregon & Washington. Splitting the Big 12's revenue pie with some of those 2023 additions moving forward has to come with a pinch of regret. If the B1G & SEC do raid the ACC sometime between now & 2036 and each grow to 20 teams (say grabbing FSU, UNC, UVA, Clemson, ND, & Miami), there are still some good middle-tier ACC assets (VT, Duke, GT, NCST) that would be open to a Big 12 life raft.
I guess what I'm asking is, if you were the Big 12 after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, how would you rank the list below of realistic assets to pursue/wait for?
1. Arizona
2. Colorado
3. Cal
4. Stanford
5. Potential ACC Team to be named later
6. Potential ACC Team to be named later
7. BYU
8. UCF
9. ASU
10. Utah
11. Houston
12. Cinci
PAC 12 died when UCLA and USC left.
The only ACC schools worth poaching from an eyeballs perspective are Duke and UNC in basketball, which doesn't materially drive economics of these deals ; and Clemson in Football.
Make no mistake, ESPN and FOX want the P12 and ACC dead.
Yessir. Talk about a doomsday bomb.I'd quibble with this. I would say mediocre to below .500 most years.
UNC is a good property, period. Decent to very good at football most years, and an outstanding academic profile (when they aren't pushing athletes into pretend courses).
Yep.
All the PAC schools seem to have scheduled immediate board meetings tonight.
All the PAC schools seem to have scheduled immediate board meetings tonight.Read AZ voted into Big12. AZ just need to accept. I believe these conferences don't vote unless they know 100% it will be accepted.
So essentially there is no longer a P-12?Sad to say but yes. They would have to look at keeping the remaining members and add schools like Tulsa and Memphis. I don't think Apple will pay $20 mil a year for that.
Sad to say but yes. They would have to look at keeping the remaining members and add schools like Tulsa and Memphis. I don't think Apple will pay $20 mil a year for that.
So essentially there is no longer a P-12?
Do you think the Big 12 is starting to have buyer's remorse with the quality/quantity of their 2023 additions (BYU, UCF, Cinci, & Houston) compared to what's likely available in the short term (Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, Utah) and long term (SEC & B1G likely can't gobble up all the good ACC assets)?
Hindsight's obviously 20/20 and the Big 12 was teetering a bit after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, but there was no/is no foreseeable future competition to poach Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford, & Utah. Grant it, poaching the PAC12 got a lot easier in 2022 with the B1G grabbing the best assets in USC & UCLA, and now the possibility of grabbing the next best in Oregon & Washington. Splitting the Big 12's revenue pie with some of those 2023 additions moving forward has to come with a pinch of regret. If the B1G & SEC do raid the ACC sometime between now & 2036 and each grow to 20 teams (say grabbing FSU, UNC, UVA, Clemson, ND, & Miami), there are still some good middle-tier ACC assets (VT, Duke, GT, NCST) that would be open to a Big 12 life raft.
a
I guess what I'm asking is, if you were the Big 12 after the Texas & Oklahoma departure announcement, how would you rank the list below of realistic assets to pursue/wait for?
1. Arizona
2. Colorado
3. Cal
4. Stanford
5. Potential ACC Team to be named later
6. Potential ACC Team to be named later
7. BYU
8. UCF
9. ASU
10. Utah
11. Houston
12. Cinci
Now rumblings the Pac-12 or whatever zombie version is left might survive as Dan Wetzel of Yahoo and Pat Forde of SI report Oregon/Washington to Big Ten has lost “steam” and a GOR and deal with Apple might be in the offing
WIll people buy Apple TV to watch P--12 football and basketball? I can't see it.
Now rumblings the Pac-12 or whatever zombie version is left might survive as Dan Wetzel of Yahoo and Pat Forde of SI report Oregon/Washington to Big Ten has lost “steam” and a GOR and deal with Apple might be in the offing
WIll people buy Apple TV to watch P--12 football and basketball? I can't see it.
Washington and Oregon are going to the Big Ten. Looks like Arizona, ASU and Utah will be heading to the Big 12.
https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-big-ten-adding-oregon-and-washington-leaving-pac-12-with-uncertain-future-163742534.html
I'm wondering if the Pac-12 falling apart might be good for the ACC. I think eventually the ACC will go down, but they need 8 votes to dissolve the contract and get out of the Grant of Rights. I imagine the Big 12 is full for now. Seems like the Big 10 has 2 spots left and the SEC has 4. Not sure 6 is enough to get them to dissolve.The Pac-12 and ACC cases are much different.
Also trying to figure out how to rank the remaining high major property values, less on a strict ranking and more by bundle. Maybe something like...
Tier 1: Notre Dame, UNC, Virginia, Florida State, Clemson
Tier 2: Georgia Tech, Stanford, Miami, Cal, Virginia Tech
Tier 3: Pittsburgh, Duke, Louisville, NC State, Syracuse, UConn
Tier 4: Boston College, Wake Forest, Oregon State, Washington State
The bold text teams are AAU members. I'm guessing that Tier 1 will get an invite regardless. I think at least one Tier 2 school will get an invite, and if all 3 leagues go to 20, it's likely all the Tier 1&2, though some of those Tier 3 will be pushing hard (I give Pitt & Duke the edge with AAU membership).
While recruiting territories might matter, I don't think media markets are as important as they once were, which is why Syracuse isn't higher up. That and terrible football. The only question is what the remains do. Say all the Tier 1&2 school get invites. Oregon State and Washington State likely merge with the Mountain West under the Pac-12 name.
What happens when Pitt, Duke, Louisville, NC State, Syracuse, BC, and Wake are the 7 left out? Do they try to reform the ACC getting the best deal they can (which will be crappy, even if they can add the best American schools) or do they let the conference dissolve?
This is where opportunity lies. First, I think Val should be in Spokane today with terms for Gonzaga. Yormark played his hand and lost. The B12 went to 16 without Gonzaga or UConn, which means if Gonzaga wants a seat at the big boy basketball table, it's Big East or bust. Second, if the ACC does fall apart, can you maybe pick off some of those ACC leftovers with a deal like UConn has? If this league could ultimately add Gonzaga, Duke, Syracuse, Louisville, and Pitt, that remain a top-tier basketball league.
I’ll never forget where I was for the three hours this morning when the PAC 12 got off life support only to drop dead.
Cal going to drop football?
I can’t imagine Stanford joining the Mountain West, but I have no idea what they do other than go independent.
I'm starting to think that the FSU announcement of, "we need to leave," may be more of begging of the Big10 and SEC to extend an offer.
ACC , on the other hand, has an ironclad G of R until 2023. The “Have Nots” in their conference are ecstatic over their media rights deal with ESPN and its ACC Network. The “Perceived Haves” have greater football ambitions and see the gap between ACC and SEC/Big 10 growing.
With those financial disparities, it's not at all iron clad. When B10 and SEC rights are doubling what ACC schools get, they will be looking to get out regardless and it only takes 8 schools to dissolve the league. I'm pretty sure UVA, UNC, Clemson, FSU, and ND could go wherever they like. If Georgia Tech, Miami, and one other school can get an invite, the ACC is toast.The deal itself is Iron Clad. Not the League.
If it's only 6 spots left, maybe that saves the ACC for the short term, but their contract goes for too long for that to hold. Within the next few years, that league will dissolve. Considering the money at play, I think it's a matter of when, not if.
Utah and Arizona St. likely on their way to the Big 12. That should just about put UConn’s hopes to bed. For the foreseeable future, at least.
https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1687575233111187456
Weird the pac 12 is essentially gone. Maybe they will scrap some mid majors together and become tantamount to the wacc big whatever is now a super conference
The only upside of this whole episode was watching UConn fans irrationally get their hopes up and have them crashed to pieces again. Eff them.Totally agree, great stuff. I think many scoopers correctly identified that offering UConn a full share was never going to make sense for Big 12 presidents.
Totally agree, great stuff. I think many scoopers correctly identified that offering UConn a full share was never going to make sense for Big 12 presidents.
Now rumblings the Pac-12 or whatever zombie version is left might survive as Dan Wetzel of Yahoo and Pat Forde of SI report Oregon/Washington to Big Ten has lost “steam” and a GOR and deal with Apple might be in the offing
https://www.espn.com/college-football/insider/story/_/id/38109648/college-realignment-buzz-pac-12-big-12-arizona-next
Also Thamel, the deal presented to Pac 12 today was Apple, less than Big 12 $ but potentially more $ with incentives.
So PAC12 merges with MWC and becomes the PAC16, the ACC GOR continues to hold up, we shut this thread down until 2035, and we're all to bed by 9:00? Sweet.Yes, please.
Guessing the remaining schools will probably just raid the Mountain West. The Pac-12 brand name likely still has some value. The only question is if they just take the top 6-10 teams in the MWC or if they take everyone, and what they do with outliers like Air Force (service academy) and Hawaii (football only member).
"Mountain West schools have to pay $34 million dollar exit fee to leave for the Pac 12.
The Pac 12 that doesn't have a media deal.
This is not happening."
https://twitter.com/HotTalkJayhawk/status/1684646001913556992 (https://twitter.com/HotTalkJayhawk/status/1684646001913556992)
Big 12 now pursuing UConn and Gonzaga.I also hear they are interested in Colorado, Utah, Arizona and ASU.
Well written piece indeed. I like the simple point about bama and miss still getting the same check in this new paradigm. How long will that be tolerated by greedy admins at the top?
This is a great column. I couldn’t agree more with everything. A bunch of money and power whores everyone involved. Everyone else in our way, screw you. And the columnist is right too that it doesn’t end with this round. Am unquenchable thirst for power and greed.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2023/08/03/college-sports-ruined-failed-leaders-expansion-ncaa-pac-12/70519616007/
Well written piece indeed. I like the simple point about bama and miss still getting the same check in this new paradigm. How long will that be tolerated by greedy admins at the top?I agree but as the teams consolidate some teams have to finish in the bottom of the conference. What is the tolerance at Auburn or Penn State or Florida or Wisconsin to be sub-.500 teams?
Raleigh News & Observer article about UNC AD Bubba Cunningham telling coaches and staff that they are not leaving the ACC. It's behind a paywall, so here's the lead for those interested:Right? Pretty sure AZ, AZ ST, Utah, Oregon and Washington pledge loyalty to the PAC12 in the past few weeks.
Even before it was official that Oregon and Washington were fleeing the wreckage of the Pac-12 for the Big Ten, it had been such a crazy week in the no-holds-barred world of conference realignment — thanks in large part to the constant yipping out of Tallahassee — that North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham held a call with his department Friday morning to tell them UNC was not leaving the ACC.
That’s what passes for breaking news these days in college sports. Nothing is actually something.
“When the news cycle starts spinning like this, I have the obligation to let our staff know what I know and reassure them we’re going to be OK,” Cunningham said later Friday. “That I value what they do. That the university values what they do. That’s my role, to reassure them that things are going to be fine.”
And as for UNC? “We have a $137 million budget,” Cunningham said. “We have 285 employees. Eight hundred student-athletes. We’re going to host 200 events this year. Over a million people are going to come to our games. We’re in good shape.”
Kind of like a "vote of confidence" for a coach who gets fired anyway?
Big 12 now pursuing UConn and Gonzaga.
Raleigh News & Observer article about UNC AD Bubba Cunningham telling coaches and staff that they are not leaving the ACC. It's behind a paywall, so here's the lead for those interested:
Even before it was official that Oregon and Washington were fleeing the wreckage of the Pac-12 for the Big Ten, it had been such a crazy week in the no-holds-barred world of conference realignment — thanks in large part to the constant yipping out of Tallahassee — that North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham held a call with his department Friday morning to tell them UNC was not leaving the ACC.
That’s what passes for breaking news these days in college sports. Nothing is actually something.
“When the news cycle starts spinning like this, I have the obligation to let our staff know what I know and reassure them we’re going to be OK,” Cunningham said later Friday. “That I value what they do. That the university values what they do. That’s my role, to reassure them that things are going to be fine.”
And as for UNC? “We have a $137 million budget,” Cunningham said. “We have 285 employees. Eight hundred student-athletes. We’re going to host 200 events this year. Over a million people are going to come to our games. We’re in good shape.”
Kind of like a "vote of confidence" for a coach who gets fired anyway?
Guessing the remaining schools will probably just raid the Mountain West. The Pac-12 brand name likely still has some value. The only question is if they just take the top 6-10 teams in the MWC or if they take everyone, and what they do with outliers like Air Force (service academy) and Hawaii (football only member).
A $137M budget, of which $48M is coming directly from student fees. That comes to $2400 from each undergraduate per year, and is significantly increasing the cost of the education.Thanks for the info, I had no idea the students subsidized the athletics so much. UNC is also planning on investing $500 million into the athletics.
This is the absurdity. They keep getting more and more money from TV deals, destroy the rivalries people/students care about, and at the same time, keep requiring more and more money from the students to support athletics.
The whole system is F'd up.
Rumor is basketball only though. No chance UConn does thatIs this just a rehash of the year old rumor? UCONN fans are bitching about "being played" by the Big12 and I don't see any new info on this elsewhere. UCONN to the Big12 seems as relevant as the Georgetown to the ACC rumors.
A $137M budget, of which $48M is coming directly from student fees. That comes to $2400 from each undergraduate per year, and is significantly increasing the cost of the education.
This is the absurdity. They keep getting more and more money from TV deals, destroy the rivalries people/students care about, and at the same time, keep requiring more and more money from the students to support athletics.
The whole system is F'd up.
In regards to sheer number of graduates, sure.
But I dunno man, I’ve met some Marquette grads in weird places that I’d never expected .
This is a great column. I couldn’t agree more with everything. A bunch of money and power whores everyone involved. Everyone else in our way, screw you. And the columnist is right too that it doesn’t end with this round. Am unquenchable thirst for power and greed.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2023/08/03/college-sports-ruined-failed-leaders-expansion-ncaa-pac-12/70519616007/
Raleigh News & Observer article about UNC AD Bubba Cunningham telling coaches and staff that they are not leaving the ACC. It's behind a paywall, so here's the lead for those interested:UNC has a massive capital raising campaign for Athletics. Equal in Size to many universities normal course capital campaigns. They enjoy being part of the ACC and are proud of being a founder of the league. Bubba is not the kind of guy to give phony pledges of feality.
Even before it was official that Oregon and Washington were fleeing the wreckage of the Pac-12 for the Big Ten, it had been such a crazy week in the no-holds-barred world of conference realignment — thanks in large part to the constant yipping out of Tallahassee — that North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham held a call with his department Friday morning to tell them UNC was not leaving the ACC.
That’s what passes for breaking news these days in college sports. Nothing is actually something.
“When the news cycle starts spinning like this, I have the obligation to let our staff know what I know and reassure them we’re going to be OK,” Cunningham said later Friday. “That I value what they do. That the university values what they do. That’s my role, to reassure them that things are going to be fine.”
And as for UNC? “We have a $137 million budget,” Cunningham said. “We have 285 employees. Eight hundred student-athletes. We’re going to host 200 events this year. Over a million people are going to come to our games. We’re in good shape.”
Kind of like a "vote of confidence" for a coach who gets fired anyway?
I agree that this sucks for us as fans but why is college sports the one place where so many people decry the free market? There's just doing what makes the most sense financially. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?
Thanks for the info, I had no idea the students subsidized the athletics so much. UNC is also planning on investing $500 million into the athletics.
I’d say no. Nonprofit entities with other goals. Colleges have other constituents. Should a college be only looking out for itself and maximizing revenue as its primary concern. No stock holders
Should a professional only be concerned about maximizing profit? Should your doctor only be concerned about maximizing profit as long as it’s legal? That doc would not be my doctor for long. Yes, there are plenty out there like that, but we also try to avoid them. And they probably aren’t the model of what should be.
Colleges aren’t traditional for profit business’s primarily concerned with net profit and shareholder value.. Or at least they shouldn’t be as most are not for profit organizations.
No doubt that college athletics is out of whack at many schools. I think schools like Duke and Stanford, could frankly be better off without athletics at the D-1 level and follow the University of Chicago or Ivy league model. Focus on being the best for students, professors, research, etc.. Avoid the distraction and some of the poor quality students that come along with Division I athletics.
It is a weird aspect of their reporting. They report $48M from student fees “assessed and restricted for support of intercollegiate athletics.” That is only assessed to undergraduates, as far as I can tell, so it is $2400 per year.
The reason it is odd, is their tuition statements report a $279 athletics charge. The numbers don't add up, so I'm not sure which aspect is being misreported.
Yep, that got my attention too. That day is coming. Maybe a few years off, but wait for it.
I agree that this sucks for us as fans but why is college sports the one place where so many people decry the free market? There's just doing what makes the most sense financially. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?
Is this just a rehash of the year old rumor? UCONN fans are bitching about "being played" by the Big12 and I don't see any new info on this elsewhere. UCONN to the Big12 seems as relevant as the Georgetown to the ACC rumors.
It’s so few and concentrated the beneficiaries of all this. Students and parents paying outrageous tuitions aren’t going to get any help from all this money from media deals to ease that burden. These supposed institutions of higher learning just keep getting further and further from their core missions. It’s all about feeding the beast to those at the top. Chase the dollar and screw everyone else. Rivalries, long standing conference affiliations, traditions, fan experience, all suffer. A student athlete has become even more of a sham notion. How much benefit is there for non football and basketball athletes? But boy are these schools going to be able to pay coaches in those sports outrageous contracts and buy them out for enormous sums when they don’t reach insane expectations.
All the collateral damage of chasing power and greed with a total disregard of everything and everyone else.
I agree that this sucks for us as fans but why is college sports the one place where so many people decry the free market? There's just doing what makes the most sense financially. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?not necessarily. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Relatively recently, there was a mayoral race in Phoenix where all 3 candidates were Marquette alums.
I agree that this sucks for us as fans but why is college sports the one place where so many people decry the free market? There's just doing what makes the most sense financially. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?
Does it suck for us as fans? How?
College football kicks off in a few weeks and the stands will be packed and the TV ratings will be huge. Seems like a lot of these hand wringing articles have been written for decades and yet it seems like in the end, the numbers are still big.
not necessarily. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
It’s so few and concentrated the beneficiaries of all this. Students and parents paying outrageous tuitions aren’t going to get any help from all this money from media deals to ease that burden. These supposed institutions of higher learning just keep getting further and further from their core missions. It’s all about feeding the beast to those at the top. Chase the dollar and screw everyone else. Rivalries, long standing conference affiliations, traditions, fan experience, all suffer. A student athlete has become even more of a sham notion. How much benefit is there for non football and basketball athletes? But boy are these schools going to be able to pay coaches in those sports outrageous contracts and buy them out for enormous sums when they don’t reach insane expectations.
All the collateral damage of chasing power and greed with a total disregard of everything and everyone else.
And since another word for fans is customers….….most businesses understand that they need to consider the customer when making decisions.
Not to mention the other stakeholders ie student athletes.
Typically businesses prosper by adding value to customers……and the profit then follows.
I mean, the reasons for college football attendance declines are many. But their television ratings continue to be huge. And that's what is driving this. People can lament what is happening, but most will still watch. And until they stop watching, and the networks notice and stop doling out big $$ for media rights, why would the major conferences change their tune?
Outside of a few writers lamenting what is in the past, the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12 will face no real repercussions for these moves.
It would also help if Arizona, Maryland and Syracuse would put a better product on the field.
not necessarily. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Wow comrade! The disgust for the rich executives, the rage for the plight of the common workingman. You sound like a card-carrying commie!
Snark aside, I think you underestimate how much money college football and basketball raises for universities and overestimate how much of it goes to the people at the top. Most of the money raised gets reinvested into the universities so they can better serve students and better carry out their mission. "Rivalries, long standing conference affiliations, traditions, fan experience" all do suffer but you may be surprised to learn that none of those are in the mission of any university.
Universities are doing what any good organization should do, ensuring the financial health of the organization.
I mean, the reasons for college football attendance declines are many. But their television ratings continue to be huge. And that's what is driving this. People can lament what is happening, but most will still watch. And until they stop watching, and the networks notice and stop doling out big $$ for media rights, why would the major conferences change their tune?
Outside of a few writers lamenting what is in the past, the Big Ten, SEC and Big 12 will face no real repercussions for these moves.
It would also help if Arizona, Maryland and Syracuse would put a better product on the field.
Do you really believe that most of the money raised in these new contracts is reinvested into the educational mission? That flies so much in the face of everything I've seen at Universities.
Most administrators don't even try to claim that, rather they claim that the profile of the University is raised by athletics, and that draws in more donations...which of course is very difficult to prove.
Snark aside, I think you underestimate how much money college football and basketball raises for universities and overestimate how much of it goes to the people at the top. Most of the money raised gets reinvested into the universities so they can better serve students and better carry out their mission. "Rivalries, long standing conference affiliations, traditions, fan experience" all do suffer but you may be surprised to learn that none of those are in the mission of any university.
Universities are doing what any good organization should do, ensuring the financial health of the organization.
I didn't say money raised in these new contracts. I said money raised by college athletics. College athletics is a development tool.
Would it ever make sense for conferences like the BEAST and Big 12 to merge?
I’m sorry, but this is just an asinine take. You think any of the money SEC schools make is being “reinvested” into education or serving the student experience? No, it’s being used to build the next practice facility, add five more marketing directors in the athletics department, and charter more jets for assistants to recruit. Most schools are lucky if their athletics programs break even, even the big ones. The money just further feeds the beast.
It's not asinine, you just don't understand how much money college athletics raises for universities and how. If athletic departments truly didn't even break even in value, they would have died out a long time ago
You’re also disregarding the debt for which athletic dept’s run in. This isn’t in the best interest of literally anyone. College sports are a mess - the latest move isn’t gone lead to positives.
We all know the percentage of revenue for these programs are going back into football. The incremental revenue isn’t going to lead to better women’s soccer, men’s volleyball, etc.
This all is built on a major, very tenuous assumption: that the next TV deals are going to match or exceed what exists now. I don’t think that is going to be the case.
It's not asinine, you just don't understand how much money college athletics raises for universities and how. If athletic departments truly didn't even break even in value, they would have died out a long time ago
Last year the Badgers athletics made $148MM and they spent… $148MM. They aren’t building libraries with this money, they’re building practice facilities.
The money doesn’t bother me. The consolidation of power does. This is different than “what has alway happened in college athletics”. I hope MU is not second tier/class 10-25 years from now.That is the most likely outcome. College athletics will consolidate to the point of diminishing returns. Colleges make decisions on an individual basis and will do so until the money starts shrinking. I think it it a logical outcome in 25 years to have 30 D1 schools.
He's explained this twice. He's not talking about the direct money earned by athletics. He is talking about the alumni engagement and philanthropy that occurs around athletic activities.
Marcus Lemonis sits with President Lovell at a basketball game, National Marquette Day, etc. Marquette's primary "point of pride" and "point of connection" is the men's basketball team.
I have said this before, but intercollegiate athletics for many D1 schools is their most effective marketing tool. At the lower levels, it is a huge enrollment driver.
Here's the lead on The Athletic's epitaph of the Pac-12:
On the morning of Nov. 12, 2011, Palo Alto, Calif., was the improbable epicenter of college football. ESPN’s “College GameDay” was live from Stanford, where that night the undefeated, third-ranked Cardinal hosted sixth-ranked Oregon. The Pac-12 finished that regular season with three of the top six teams in the country. It was the same year that the league signed what was then the richest television contract in college sports history (12 years, $3 billion).
That this same storied conference would be on the verge of extinction just a dozen years later seems utterly inconceivable. And almost entirely self-inflicted.
We all know the percentage of revenue for these programs are going back into football. The incremental revenue isn’t going to lead to better women’s soccer, men’s volleyball, etc.
You’re also disregarding the debt for which athletic dept’s run in. This isn’t in the best interest of literally anyone. College sports are a mess - the latest move isn’t gone lead to positives.
My only concern with this consolidation of power is its long term impact (or not so long term) on CBB, the college sport that I and most of us on here care about way more than college football. My fear, however irrational, is that this will lead to another division of bball higher than MU will be allowed to play in. I don’t want MU to be a “buy game” at some point for a school that once was a peer if not below our status.
The money doesn’t bother me. The consolidation of power does. This is different than “what has alway happened in college athletics”. I hope MU is not second tier/class 10-25 years from now.
That is the most likely outcome. College athletics will consolidate to the point of diminishing returns. Colleges make decisions on an individual basis and will do so until the money starts shrinking. I think it it a logical outcome in 25 years to have 30 D1 schools.
The hierarchy for college sports (football, men's basketball) is 1. School/Team 2. Conference 3. The Sport/NCAA
The hierarchy for other professional sports are 1. The Sport/League 2. The Team.
Other professional sports like the NFL and teams like the Jets understand their competition is MLB, NBA, MLS, movies, reality TV shows, HBO and NOT the Packer or Cowboys or Titans.
Michigan or Ohio State would put the boot on Wisconsin's or Illinois' neck in a second to get a better contract or win more games. So yes, the idea of 30 team D1 is real.
I'm not disregarding anything. Athletics raises 5-10 times what they spend, not just direct income but donations driven by athletics. That is the money that gets reinvested into the university, often directly into the endowment which then grows even more.
But I'm glad we have so many visionaries on this board who can clearly see how universities have been making mistakes for decades and have been running giant money sucks that are harming the university's bottom line while somehow simultaneously making "the people at the top" obscene amount of money. It's a wonder that every single D1 university hasn't figured this out but so many on Scoop have.
College sports is just another minor league. The only reason it is profitable is because of people's connections to their alma maters or schools they grew up cheering for. You lop too many of those out and it just becomes the g-league or the XFL.Your thinking like the NBA or NFL not like college presidents. I trust you, the NFL and NBA more than NCAA members.
TAMU, the data does not support your first bolded assertion. Time-series data over all institutions for multiple years indicates that athletic performance does not have a consistent and significant effect on donations. Those making assertions like yours usually point to artifactual data, e.g. Loyola-Chicago, but neglect larger data sets, which contradict these artifacts.
Regarding the second bolded. For me at least, I'm not being visionary, I'm referencing actual conversations with institutional leaders, that both state the same thing you are, but also acknowledge that largely they are just stuck working with the system as it is, because change is hard and often major athletic supporters are on the board that makes decisions. They also acknowledge a significant fear of what to do in the future, as most from this generation and to some extent the previous generation, do not have the same connection between athletics and their University, and in some cases have an animosity regarding the relationship between athletics, tuition costs, and their University.
He's explained this twice. He's not talking about the direct money earned by athletics. He is talking about the alumni engagement and philanthropy that occurs around athletic activities.
Marcus Lemonis sits with President Lovell at a basketball game, National Marquette Day, etc. Marquette's primary "point of pride" and "point of connection" is the men's basketball team.
I have said this before, but intercollegiate athletics for many D1 schools is their most effective marketing tool. At the lower levels, it is a huge enrollment driver.
Saying that college athletics is a good marketing and promotional tool is one thing, something no rational person would dispute. Saying it advances institution’s educational / philanthropic missions is quite another, and a ludicrous proposition.
I'm not disregarding anything. Athletics raises 5-10 times what they spend, not just direct income but donations driven by athletics. That is the money that gets reinvested into the university, often directly into the endowment which then grows even more.
But I'm glad we have so many visionaries on this board who can clearly see how universities have been making mistakes for decades and have been running giant money sucks that are harming the university's bottom line while somehow simultaneously making "the people at the top" obscene amount of money. It's a wonder that every single D1 university hasn't figured this out but so many on Scoop have.
I don't believe TAMU asserted that success in athletics necessarily correlates with increase philanthropy. Schools can struggle on the field or the court, but still use athletics to drive engagement or philanthropy. Look at Northwestern for instance.
You accuse TAMU of using "artificial data," but then use an anecdote. Not terribly consistent.
Then why worry about needing to spend more money on athletics, if success doesn't matter?
Also, in that case, there is no data to support an assertion that athletics raises general funding, rather it is just a case of "well that's how it has always been done". The latter is for the most parts true. A reluctance to make a change.
You realize that your claim here is that the University of Alabama athletics raise between $1 and 2 billion annually. And those funds then get reinvested instep a school with an endowment of $1.09 billion. They must be the world’s worst hedge fund managers.I think Alabama went heavy on Redman Chewing Tobacco and Bud Light in their portfolio. ;D
This hasn't been my experience with the free market. I've found that most companies don't focus on maximizing value to their customers, they focus on providing the value that is most profitable to them while still providing enough value to keep customers coming back...which is exactly what these universities are doing. The loss of rivalries, the consolidation of power, the brutal travel on student athletes, the decrease in winning (for most programs)....all of that sucks for fans, but...
This is exactly right. Even though most fans/customers hate these changes, they will still come back for more. So if changing conferences will make the university more money and the fans will come back despite hating it, than the university is doing exactly what any smart organization would do.
Just make sure you keep that same energy for the next time a company moves thousands of jobs overseas to save money, or causes an environmental disaster without technically breaking the law, or upcharges a life saving medicine like insulin beyond what a middle class family can afford.
Your thinking like the NBA or NFL not like college presidents. I trust you, the NFL and NBA more than NCAA members.
NCAA members just "lopped" off fans of Cal, Stanford, WSU and OSU.
Then why worry about needing to spend more money on athletics, if success doesn't matter?
All that said, College Sports are not a business.
(https://i.imgur.com/e4Y5TYc.png)
I don't think this is as true as you think. I think college presidents are acutely aware of this reality.I think you give the presidents too much credit. You'd need to point out examples to me to change my mind.
They didn't "lop off" the PAC 4, at least not in the way we were talking about earlier. You said there would be 30 D1 teams. No one has been removed from D1 at this point. Washington State still plays at the same level as Alabama.
I agree with a lot of your post, but the above is simply naïve. Of course they are a business, at least at the FBS level.Agreed. If college sports (FBS level) is not a business than neither is Conoco, GM or Apple. I hope Herman meant something different, because that was right up there with 'the world is flat' claims.
Not sure how practically that works…
I agree with a lot of your post, but the above is simply naïve. Of course they are a business, at least at the FBS level.
Agreed. If college sports (FBS level) is not a business than neither is Conoco, GM or Apple. I hope Herman meant something different, because that was right up there with 'the world is flat' claims.I oversimplified what I meant. To clarify , while College Sports at The FBS level have large revenues in total and have lots of business like aspects, the are effectively a collection of not- for profit organizations when taken as a whole governed by their trade association (NCAA) with no overarching strategic plan . For example, that means including the mandated sponsorship of all the various varsity sports for both genders. They have massive imbedded investments that are necessary to compete with limited return going in.
I agree with a lot of your post, but the above is simply naïve. Of course they are a business, at least at the FBS level.
And it's now time for the IRS to tax the sports side of universities and for the FTC to start regulating competition. If BAMA is pulling in $1-2B per year, that is a much bigger pot of gold to go after than my airline and hotel points. There is simply no reason to maintain the tax free status of this cartel.Ha. So true. I have been told multiple times on this site the universities are paying tax on athletics income.
And it's now time for the IRS to tax the sports side of universities and for the FTC to start regulating competition. If BAMA is pulling in $1-2B per year, that is a much bigger pot of gold to go after than my airline and hotel points. There is simply no reason to maintain the tax free status of this cartel.
And it's now time for the IRS to tax the sports side of universities and for the FTC to start regulating competition. If BAMA is pulling in $1-2B per year, that is a much bigger pot of gold to go after than my airline and hotel points. There is simply no reason to maintain the tax free status of this cartel.
Of course there's a reason. They are fundraising tools that support higher education. You can argue that this is too flimsy of a reason but my guess is they start taxing megachurches before they tax college sports.
But the point we in this thread are mostly agreeing with is there is nothing but a flimsy excuse to say these mega conferences and gigantic media revenues are now supporting “higher education”, especially with athletes now being paid. I am all for these revenues to support the schools but these mega conferences with media and endorsement dollars are nothing now but tax shelters for conference monopolies that don’t have anything to do with “higher education”. Go after the B1G and SEC.
It’s a sham.
And this is hyperbole. As previously discussed, college athletics drives alumni engagement, development, and recruitment. Without it, the academic missions of the universities would suffer.
I have no idea what athletes being paid by third parties has to do with a university's tax exempt status.
Of course there's a reason. They are fundraising tools that support higher education. You can argue that this is too flimsy of a reason but my guess is they start taxing megachurches before they tax college sports.
As long as the colleges and universities are paying their required taxes on athletic income, "unrelated business", as you outline, I am satisfied.
Colleges and universities could still accept donations as 501(c)(3) institutions and pay unrelated business income tax on athletic activities such as media rights and game ticket revenue.
The IRS has just never classified such income as unrelated to their charitable purpose. Quick look up finds this quote: “An athletic program is considered an integral part of the educational process of a university.”
Colleges and universities pay unrelated business tax regularly on various items. This would be no different.
As long as the colleges and universities are paying their required taxes on athletic income, "unrelated business", as you outline, I am satisfied.
If they are not, then those schools are are running an ENRON level financial fraud scheme.
And it's now time for the IRS to tax the sports side of universities and for the FTC to start regulating competition. If BAMA is pulling in $1-2B per year, that is a much bigger pot of gold to go after than my airline and hotel points. There is simply no reason to maintain the tax free status of this cartel.
And this is hyperbole. As previously discussed, college athletics drives alumni engagement, development, and recruitment. Without it, the academic missions of the universities would suffer.
I have no idea what athletes being paid by third parties has to do with a university's tax exempt status.
Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers.
They aren't paying income tax on media rights fees, etc. because the IRS has determined that such fees are exempt from taxation. There is no "fraud" if its legal.
Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers.You think tuition is bad now, wait until you tax the universities.
As should be obvious to all, it doesn't matter what the revenue streams are, we are talking about income for "income tax". If the schools can prove they are running at a loss or breakeven, then no taxes. Just like every other company or organization.
You think tuition is bad now, wait until you tax the universities.That's how it works in the US. The universities can reign in spending on athletics or can pass the tax expense to the students. People are free to choose if they will pay the tuition or not. As long as the rules are equally applied to all, the market will sort it out.
Then the rules need to changed. These are professional sports organizations no different than the Cubs or Cowboys. This is blatantly unfair to all tax payers.
Would be great if this thread could get back on topic.
Only 4 Pac12 teams remain.
I think it is inevitable that a Mountain West merger happens under the Pac12 name. It will initially have 16 teams but I do think Stanford and Cal will get picked up by the B1G at some point.
Brother Coleman:dgies9156:
I don't think so. Cal and Stanford do nothing for the core reason of the BIG: television revenue. How many times in the next 10 years would you expect to either team, Northwestern, Missouri, Minnesota or Rutgers on the prime-time game of the week?
Cal and Stanford probably will end up in the Big 12, along with the Beavs and the Cougs.
On the larger question of athletic revenue, I can only speak to our beloved alma mater. The McGuire money collected during the salad days of our program made an incredible difference in our campus. The university did everything it could to kill our basketball program in the 1980s and geez did that make a difference both in direct revenue and in contributions.
An interesting, very old article, was written by the Milwaukee Journal (yeah, Journal back then) about the impact of the loss to Miami of Ohio in 1978. Remember, we were independent back then. The direct impact from not being a final four team (which was expected) was massive.
While do you think Father Wild revitalized the program?
Cal and Stanford do nothing for the core reason of the BIG: television revenue.
dg: Agree about Cal, disagree about Stanford. IMHO the Former Big 10 and the Former Big 12 would both be very interested in an elite academic university that over the years has run athletics at a pretty high level. And not only is the SF metro area large, but Stanford is something of a national name.I 100% agree with your thoughts on Stanford. So why the hell can they be left out? There must be something we don't understand. Attendance, viewership, arrogance?
I 100% agree with your thoughts on Stanford. So why the hell can they be left out? There must be something we don't understand. Attendance, viewership, arrogance?
When does the Big East add Gonzaga?
Why is Stanford being left out? A few reasons.
First, this isn't yesterday's Big Ten. The idea of getting an "elite academic university" is less and less relevant.
Second, Stanford just isn't that much of a draw ratings wise.
Third, as others have pointed out, they may get in eventually.
Yes.
Meanwhile, this from The Athletic showing that membership in the Big 18+ isn't necessarily a guarantee:
Rutgers’ time in the Big Ten has been a competitive and financial nightmare, compounded by a few salacious scandals. Entering its 10th season in the conference, the football team has gone 13-66 in league play. Meanwhile, despite astronomical increases in shared Big Ten revenue, the athletic department has racked up more than $250 million in debt, according to financial documents obtained by The Athletic and first reported by NorthJersey.com.
Adding Rutgers and Maryland was horrific for the league - especially Rutgers, which isn't even competitive in most non-football sports.
https://twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1688627770987794433?s=20
When does the Big East add Gonzaga?
I don't think it happens. I think the Big East is more interested in picking off the eventual corpse of the ACC.
Some discussion in this article about p-12 Autonomy Conference Value and NCAA units vis a vis merger with Mountain West
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/story/2023-08-05/san-diego-state-sdsu-mountain-west-pac-12-conference-realignment-merger-oregon-state-washington-cal-stanford
I doubt this happens. Adding two more teams would either require them to dilute their media deal revenue share per team, or renegotiate a deal with the two additional teams included.Agreed. Cal and Stanford to the ACC is not happening.
As I understand it the GOR last for the durations of the media deal, and that a renegotiated deal would end the GOR...which would allow anyone out with no GOR issues.
Should have been yesterday
Why?
Mark Few turns 61 this year. He's done wonders there, in spite of many disadvantages compared to other programs, but how likely is Gonzaga to remain a strong asset after he retires? Odds are they join the brotherhood of DePaul, Holy Cross, San Francisco, Temple, Wake Forest, (Marquette for a quarter century,) and other small, private schools that fell off significantly, but without the advantages of geography or market.
61? He could coach another decade.
You take them if it helps your next media deal. Sort out the future when it gets here.
If you want Gonzaga, you get Gonzaga if you can.
True, but if you don’t, you don’t.
I don’t.
The biggest question isn't whether Gonzaga is a fit for the Big East, but rather where are the TV slots the Big East is going to get with its new TV deal.
The Big Ten is now essentially owned by Fox. With 18 teams and EST, CST and PST access, it will dominate FS1, the B1GN and probably FS2. In addition to the Big Ten, Fox also has 50% of the Big 12 content, which now has 16 teams. Even if we could get our $$ bump, what channel and slots do that leave the BE?
ESPN has the SEC, ACC, 50% Big 12 and the American. There won't be much access there either.
It won't matter if we get $10 million per year (and that's a stretch) if we don't get on TV. The elimination of a conference has only tightened network windows because of consolidation. The PAC faced a strictly streaming deal. I hope we are more fortunate.
The biggest question isn't whether Gonzaga is a fit for the Big East, but rather where are the TV slots the Big East is going to get with its new TV deal.Big East has been a steady fixture for Fox and Fox Sports. I would hope that remains the case going forward given that the league is now a proven product .
The Big Ten is now essentially owned by Fox. With 18 teams and EST, CST and PST access, it will dominate FS1, the B1GN and probably FS2. In addition to the Big Ten, Fox also has 50% of the Big 12 content, which now has 16 teams. Even if we could get our $$ bump, what channel and slots do that leave the BE?
ESPN has the SEC, ACC, 50% Big 12 and the American. There won't be much access there either.
It won't matter if we get $10 million per year (and that's a stretch) if we don't get on TV. The elimination of a conference has only tightened network windows because of consolidation. The PAC faced a strictly streaming deal. I hope we are more fortunate.
I’d be fine with a streaming-only deal with someone like YouTube TV or AppleTV, as Lon as they had a lot of assurances about production and announcing. Most people under 50 are streaming their TV anyway and I think the added “publicity” of being on ESPN or big Fox is overblown in an age where no one is flipping channels anymore. As long as the production quality and announcers are there, I’m comfortable with the Big East thinking about the future rather than the past.
dgies9156:
Every time you bring up that Miami of Ohio game, I have PTSD from being in the stands watching another natty go down the drain.
Big East has been a steady fixture for Fox and Fox Sports. I would hope that remains the case going forward given that the league is now a proven product .
Big East has been a steady fixture for Fox and Fox Sports. I would hope that remains the case going forward given that the league is now a proven product .
Just remember that Fox and the Catholic 7 got together when both parties REALLY needed one another. Fox was launching FS1 and FS2, and the C7 were putting together a conference that needed a media outlet.
Fox doesn't need the Big East like it did then. Given the P12's experience, I am actually feeling pretty nervous about the next contract.
Brother Herm:
It was a terribly sad day in MU history. The PTSD from that moment lasted for decades. Only now are we truly getting back to where we should be!
I was in Dubuque, Iowa with my then-girlfriend (now my wife of 43 years) that day. Kinda wrote it off as one of those "things that happen." Didn't realize how bad it was until we thought we had a great recruiting year when we brought in Terrell Schlundt.
The amount of lost opportunity in the 1980s and 1990s was astronomical. Only God knows for sure how much money we didn't raise because we tried like hell to kill off the basketball program.
Morale of the story: Athletic Department Administration that fields a consistently winning team at a high level is the most important thing a school can do. It's nice to be in the BIG, but unless Washington and Oregon can compete for a football natty regularly playing Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Iowa, Penn State and a resurgent Illinois, they are nobody. Ditto for UCLA and USC!
Yes, Minnesota and Northwestern get big paydays but does anyone think either school ever will be elite. Ditto for Vanderbilt, Missouri, Kentucky and Mississippi State in the SEC!
Illinois football? Have people 35 and younger ever heard of Illinois football?Our friends in Madison definitely know about Illinois football. ;D
Just in case they haven’t. Dick Butkus and Red Grange went to Illinois.
Just remember that Fox and the Catholic 7 got together when both parties REALLY needed one another. Fox was launching FS1 and FS2, and the C7 were putting together a conference that needed a media outlet.
Fox doesn't need the Big East like it did then. Given the P12's experience, I am actually feeling pretty nervous about the next contract.
I'm in the same boat as you. Unless half the schedule gets sold to CBSSN I don't see where they're gonna have room for BE content once the B1G expansion happens.There are 7 days in a week that can be filled with content. Also a lot of Big Content will end up on Big Ten network. The Big East will be fine, although It is possible there may not be materially increased economics
Just remember that Fox and the Catholic 7 got together when both parties REALLY needed one another. Fox was launching FS1 and FS2, and the C7 were putting together a conference that needed a media outlet.
Fox doesn't need the Big East like it did then. Given the P12's experience, I am actually feeling pretty nervous about the next contract.
Why?
Mark Few turns 61 this year. He's done wonders there, in spite of many disadvantages compared to other programs, but how likely is Gonzaga to remain a strong asset after he retires? Odds are they join the brotherhood of DePaul, Holy Cross, San Francisco, Temple, Wake Forest, (Marquette for a quarter century,) and other small, private schools that fell off significantly, but without the advantages of geography or market.
The biggest question isn't whether Gonzaga is a fit for the Big East, but rather where are the TV slots the Big East is going to get with its new TV deal.
The Big Ten is now essentially owned by Fox. With 18 teams and EST, CST and PST access, it will dominate FS1, the B1GN and probably FS2. In addition to the Big Ten, Fox also has 50% of the Big 12 content, which now has 16 teams. Even if we could get our $$ bump, what channel and slots do that leave the BE?
ESPN has the SEC, ACC, 50% Big 12 and the American. There won't be much access there either.
It won't matter if we get $10 million per year (and that's a stretch) if we don't get on TV. The elimination of a conference has only tightened network windows because of consolidation. The PAC faced a strictly streaming deal. I hope we are more fortunate.
Isn't there a difference though in televising Pac12 football as opposed to BE basketball. College football is a one day a week proposition (Saturday) with a rare Thursday or Friday evening sprinkled in. Whereas college basketball plays 7 days a week and if necessary one network could cover 3 games every weeknight. I'm guessing with the B10 and B12 playing a lot of games in the Pacific and Mountain time zones starting next year, that third TV window on weeknights is going to offer a lot of late games.Good points. Time slots are not nearly as important for basketball as compared to football. Football time slots are way more important not only for viewers but also the entire game day event on campus. These schools get 6 or 7 Saturdays a year to host games and everything that goes into it. 10am Saturday is not nearly as valuable as an afternoon kickoff. Not sure about Big10 games but in the south, it is common to have festivals and tailgating with big screen TVs, bartenders and waiters. These move the local economies significantly.
Our friends in Madison definitely know about Illinois football. ;DHeard for decades in the stodgy chasms of Memorial Stadium:
I'm in the same boat as you. Unless half the schedule gets sold to CBSSN I don't see where they're gonna have room for BE content once the B1G expansion happens.
Isn't there a difference though in televising Pac12 football as opposed to BE basketball. College football is a one day a week proposition (Saturday) with a rare Thursday or Friday evening sprinkled in. Whereas college basketball plays 7 days a week and if necessary one network could cover 3 games every weeknight. I'm guessing with the B10 and B12 playing a lot of games in the Pacific and Mountain time zones starting next year, that third TV window on weeknights is going to offer a lot of late games.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
There will be plenty of *room* for BE basketball content. The Big Ten is putting games on the Big Ten Network and on Peacock. So there will be "slots" available for BE games, especially if streaming is part of the equation.
The point I am making is if Fox will be willing to *pay* significantly for that content. The last go around they were because they needed the content. They don't need it as much now.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
There will be plenty of *room* for BE basketball content. The Big Ten is putting games on the Big Ten Network and on Peacock. So there will be "slots" available for BE games, especially if streaming is part of the equation.
The point I am making is if Fox will be willing to *pay* significantly for that content. The last go around they were because they needed the content. They don't need it as much now.
No, I get your point, and I agree 100%.
But I would hope that as a counterweight to that when FOX gets out its checkbook in this round of contract negotiations it realizes that at least a couple of things have changed since 2013:
1. UCONN is back in the fold.
2. The BE has won 3 National
Championships.
Throw in the fact that the BE now delivers a loud, sold out MSG for its conference tournament. Back in 2013 FOX kind of bought " a pig in a poke" as my Irish grandparents used to say. But they certainly know what they're getting this time around for the BE media rights, and they should pay.
Might want to check the BET Championship ratings on Fox, not FS1, over the past few years. If the BE is presenting that as cause for pay increase, we might get laughed out of the room.Big East has 10 years of rating history . What ever the eventual number for the contract renewal is, will not be a surprise to The Conference .
Big East had 10 years of rating history . What ever the eventual number for the contract renewal is, will not be a surprise to The Conference .
It is a valid point. I still think we get a bigger deal. While Fox may not be as desperate for content, the value of the Big East has gone up tremendously. Since the last deal was signed, we have added UConn and the conference has won 3 National Championships. The conference in 2023-2024 will be be deeper than it has ever been since the 2013 reformulation.
It is also worth noting that not only is UCONN in the fold, but Georgetown and St. John's have taken major steps to upgrade their basketball programs. Having traditional and powerful brands in big media markets matters, many forget that St. John's and G'town not only put the Big East on center stage, they also played a major role in building ESPN and popularizing televised college basketball.
It is also worth noting that not only is UCONN in the fold, but Georgetown and St. John's have taken major steps to upgrade their basketball programs.
It's an upgrade in coaching, but there's no more new money into the program. Georgetown is still in a ditch in that their three largest athletic teams by budget and support are at or near historic lows.
Agreed, same with any conference expansion likely being done with consultation of the networks..
The networks are driving sports.
On another note: Amazon has done a good job with Overtime Elite. I think we should listen to their pitch for Big East basketball
It's an upgrade in coaching, but there's no more new money into the program. Georgetown is still in a ditch in that their three largest athletic teams by budget and support are at or near historic lows.
https://twitter.com/jasonscheer/status/1689454569749893120?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EtweetI'd clarify this and say 'the ACC as we know it is doomed'. Just by sheer number of schools I think the brand survives without FSU, Miami, UNC, Clemson, Virginia, etc. Maybe add UCONN or SMU and then a slightly better than AAC level TV deal. Then we have the Power 3, for however long that lasts.
As expected, ACC is not expected to invite Cal and Stanford.
The networks want the ACC dead, no way they offer additional funds for ACC to invite new schools. Which means that any new additions means every current member taking a paycut. Maybe you can sell that to Cuse, BC, and Pitt who are desperately trying to keep the ACC together at all costs....but too many of the schools are looking for the exit. ACC is doomed.
The ACC is not doomed. Far from it. Has a 13 year contract that serves the needs of the majority of the Conference very well.
I'd clarify this and say 'the ACC as we know it is doomed'. Just by sheer number of schools I think the brand survives without FSU, Miami, UNC, Clemson, Virginia, etc. Maybe add UCONN or SMU and then a slightly better than AAC level TV deal. Then we have the Power 3, for however long that lasts.
But it doesn't serve a majority of the conference's wants. Once over half the membership has a solid invite from the Power 3, they will vote to dissolve and leave...or will threaten to dissolve in exchange for being let out of the GoR.I don’t see the economics of the Media Companies supporting many additions to the other conferences. A careful examination of the ACC schools shows that there are only a handful that drive the Media eyeballs necessary to avoid existing dilution in other conferences . FSU in a good year can make that case , presently their eyeballs are down because their team has not performed well.
Long term economics dictate that there will be one large FBS set up more like the NFL with schools who have most media viability. A lot of schools will go down to FCS with fewer football scholarships and lower cost structure .
Finally, over time streaming will gain more market share versus linear TV ,and that will ultimately be the sorting device .Long term economics dictate that there will be one large FBS set up more like the NFL with schools who have most media viability. A lot of schools will go down to FCS with fewer football scholarships and lower cost structure .
Number of schools which have dropped to FCS since 1993?
One. (Idaho)
I don’t see the economics of the Media Companies supporting many additions to the other conferences. A careful examination of the ACC schools shows that there are only a handful that drive the Media eyeballs necessary to avoid existing dilution in other conferences . FSU in a good year can make that case , presently their eyeballs are down because their team has not performed well.
Also, todays Reality is ACC is still paying out more than The Big 12. So its a Power 4
The windfall received from any schools leaving the ACC will be substantial for the remaining members
Finally, over time streaming will gain more market share versus linear TV ,and that will ultimately be the sorting device .Long term economics dictate that there will be one large FBS set up more like the NFL with schools who have most media viability. A lot of schools will go down to FCS with fewer football scholarships and lower cost structure .
Number of schools which have dropped to FCS since 1993?
One. (Idaho)
I believe you meant ACC above?
Actually reality is that they pay out less than the Big 12: https://www.on3.com/teams/florida-state-seminoles/news/acc-schools-rank-4th-among-power-5-schools-in-average-conference-payout-for-fiscal-year-2022/. Even so, it is close enough to the Big 12 to still be considered a power conference for now. But its days are numbered.
Schools I would not be surprised to see drop to FCS within the next 10 years, just off the top of my head....I would be surprised. I suppose if the ACC dissolved it would create a possibility, but even with that it would be surprising, to me.
UConn
Boston College
Duke
Wake Forest
I believe you meant ACC above?
The Big12 revenue per school expected to go to $50-55M per school when the new TV deal kicks in. $10M+ gap compared to the ACC and the ACC number is not going up any time soon. The gap will be significant by 2036(?).
Schools I would not be surprised to see drop to FCS within the next 10 years, just off the top of my head....
UConn
Boston College
Duke
Wake Forest
No, I'm saying the ACC is currently close enough to the Big 12 to still be considered a power conference despite being behind the other threeOops. I misread your post. Your wording was correct, my mistake.
Schools I would not be surprised to see drop to FCS within the next 10 years, just off the top of my head....
UConn
Boston College
Duke
Wake Forest
https://twitter.com/jasonscheer/status/1689454569749893120?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
As expected, ACC is not expected to invite Cal and Stanford.
The networks want the ACC dead, no way they offer additional funds for ACC to invite new schools. Which means that any new additions means every current member taking a paycut. Maybe you can sell that to Cuse, BC, and Pitt who are desperately trying to keep the ACC together at all costs....but too many of the schools are looking for the exit. ACC is doomed.
The Athletic's Jason Kirk on what the next big conference deal should be:
The Huge 32: What if the ACC lets Clemson and FSU leave, then merges with the Big 12 and Pac-4? That’s a tidy 32, divisible into eight four-team pods. Everybody plays locals, in a top-three conference. If college sports had any adults in charge, it’d be considered. Thus it won’t.
Pac -12 unforced error. Do not adhere to old Wall Street adage , “ Bulls get a little, Bears get a little, Hogs get slaughtered”Failure by the commish and the presidents. Ultimately the presidents have to own it. While the commissioners are the media darlings or whipping boys, the presidents make the calls.
https://www.si.com/.amp/college/2023/08/11/pac-12-espn-media-rights-negotiations-50-million-ask-per-report
Oregon State leading the charge to preserve Pac-12 per this article
https://www.on3.com/news/oregon-state-president-statement-pac-12-rebuild-effort-future-plans-conference-realignment-jayathi-murthy-4-cal-stanford-washington/
Best they can hope for is a merger with the MWC and the continuation of the PAC 12 name.Given the current state of affairs, that would be a good outcome.
So it looks like the PAC 12 is dead and even if they merge with the MWC there will be one less automatic qualifier and one additional at-large spot for the NCAA Championship.
Good point.Do you think this will get Jimmy Boeheim back? :D
That is one bright spot in all of this consolidation for at large basketball teams on the bubble.
Makes me wonder if GU is holding out for a Big East invite. Why else would they turn down a B12 invite? The way he phrased it ("unfortunately") it sounds like the B12 wanted them.
Unless they are truly happy in the WCC but I find that hard to believe.
Makes me wonder if GU is holding out for a Big East invite. Why else would they turn down a B12 invite? The way he phrased it ("unfortunately") it sounds like the B12 wanted them.
Unless they are truly happy in the WCC but I find that hard to believe.
No the Big 12 never invited them. They were always used as leverage.
Makes me wonder if GU is holding out for a Big East invite. Why else would they turn down a B12 invite? The way he phrased it ("unfortunately") it sounds like the B12 wanted them.
Unless they are truly happy in the WCC but I find that hard to believe.
Makes me wonder if GU is holding out for a Big East invite. Why else would they turn down a B12 invite? The way he phrased it ("unfortunately") it sounds like the B12 wanted them.
Unless they are truly happy in the WCC but I find that hard to believe.
TAMU beat me too it
https://twitter.com/Ourand_SBJ/status/1691774754074644846?t=tkyD-Elh2BB5S9hh25uzhQ&s=19
We can close the book on UConn/Gonzaga to the B12....for now
Having UConn in the BE for the foreseeable future should help with the next TV contract. Very curious to see what happens going forward.
100%.
And I don't think it's possible to overstate the importance of this.
...by 5 seconds
This is the 1st mentions of Duke fans considering the Big East, from the Duke BB report:We’re sure everyone has done their due diligence and so on, but we really haven’t heard this idea mentioned: what about the Big East?
The big negative would obviously be the functional end of Duke football and Duke has a brilliant, if distant football history. And David Cutcliffe and Mike Elko have done much to breathe life into a program that was beyond life support: at one point, Duke actually argued that it should be allowed to cancel a game with Louisville because any substitute D-1 team would be a better program - and the judge agreed.
But the Big East has re-emerged as a great basketball league and at the end of the day, basketball is Duke’s crown jewel. It would also allow Duke to escape the endless aftershocks of realignment.
We’d vastly prefer the ACC, but clearly there are no guarantees of anything today.
I'm starting to wonder if more teams will begin considering going Independent for football if it makes sense for them, a la UConn. I'm not saying Duke should or shouldn't, but it makes more sense now than it did 10 years ago.
The Athletic has an article yesterday with many coaches on and off the record calling for football to break away and order to be restored conference wise. It's probably 10 years away but good to hear it being considered.
The Athletic has an article yesterday with many coaches on and off the record calling for football to break away and order to be restored conference wise. It's probably 10 years away but good to hear it being considered.
[/quot
I think that is an idea worth considering. The conference roulette chaos is getting old.
But the article also pointed out how very difficult this will be, given that football underwrites the entire athletic departments at many, many schools.
But the article also pointed out how very difficult this will be, given that football underwrites the entire athletic departments at many, many schools.I do not see why football being in a separate conference from the other school's sports would be a negative financially.
I do not see why football being in a separate conference from the other school's sports would be a negative financially.
The other sports could have less travel costs, so it might actually be a positive.
West Va's travel expenses in their last year of the Big East were 4 million, their first year of the Big 12 they were 8 million.
Correct but having Chip Kelly and Nate Oats on the record calling for it is a very big first step in the right direction.
West Va's travel expenses in their last year of the Big East were 4 million, their first year of the Big 12 they were 8 million.
West Va's travel expenses in their last year of the Big East were 4 million, their first year of the Big 12 they were 8 million.
Huggy's drinking bill on the longer flights?
I don't know if this should be in teal, but why is this a "very big first step?" They're just coaches.
Until athletic administrators or school presidents, and probably most important media partners, start talking like this, nothing Chip Kelly or Nate Oats says is all that relevant.
Bucket 3: If I were Rutgers, Northwestern or Vanderbilt (schools with brands that don’t move the TV needle and have had modest on-field success historically) … I would suggest winning some more football games. ...
[/i]
Good point.
That is one bright spot in all of this consolidation for at large basketball teams on the bubble.
If we're ranking biggest moves, USC + UCLA is up there with Oklahoma + Texas.
So when the UCLA football coach suggests split conferences, you don't think that's significant? That's a pretty big voice. And it's coming from a realignment winner. This isn't Jonathan Smith talking.
Brother MU:
I've been saying that for a long time. Unless ESPN Creates ESPN 6000 for schools like Vanderbilt, Duke et al, it's only time until they are gone. Vandy is in the SEC because the TV money is so good, even though their team is SOOOOOOO bad!
No, I don't think it's significant at all. The legendary Bo Schembechler wanted nothing to do with Penn State in the Big Ten, and was quoted all over the place voicing his opinion. Guess what? Penn State is in the Big Ten.
Coaches simply don't carry much weight in these matters.
No Sh!t.
I understand Chip Kelly has no say. I'm aware of org charts within Ath Depts.
Chip Kelly is UCLA's highest paid employee though and has the biggest microphone. He's going on the record saying the basketball + olympic sports should be returned normal conferences. And a dozen other coaches agree with him. That can sway public opinion.
Besides consider the optics of before you make this move your highest paid employee is suggesting rewriting half of it.
Brother MU:
I've been saying that for a long time. Unless ESPN Creates ESPN 6000 for schools like Vanderbilt, Duke et al, it's only time until they are gone. Vandy is in the SEC because the TV money is so good, even though their team is SOOOOOOO bad!
It was just one more perspective on it, Sultan. It's cool that you don't think it was worthy of being posted.
I don’t mind that it was posted. But George Will’s sports opinions are nearly universally bad and should be ignored at all costs.
The beautiful thing is that you could have seen the first two words of my post and then just moved on. Ain't freedom grand?
The Athletic's David Ubben says that after this rapid expansion, the next big step will be contraction. The gist:
It’s the nuclear option in the future of conference membership, a “press only in event of emergency” eject button. But when the two biggest conferences run out of expansion options, contraction will be the only option to make sure the revenues continue to grow.
Over the years, I’ve had a decent amount of idle conversations with administrators about the possibility. When I broach the topic, I get a mostly equal distribution of responses that fall into one of three buckets.
Bucket 1: I can’t see our leagues ever getting to that point.
Bucket 2: That’s definitely going to happen at some point. It’s a when, not if.
Bucket 3: If I were Rutgers, Northwestern or Vanderbilt (schools with brands that don’t move the TV needle and have had modest on-field success historically) … I would suggest winning some more football games. ...
If there were any doubt, the latest round of realignment has laid bare the harsh reality of college sports in 2023. There is no loyalty left. The only loyalty is to the almighty dollar. ...
Oregon and Oregon State have shared a conference since 1915. Washington and Washington State have been tied together since 1917. USC and UCLA have been alongside their Golden State brethren since 1928.
But when cash came into consideration, none of that mattered anymore.
I've been thinking about the upcoming Big East media rights negotiations, and whether there is anything to learn from how things shook out between the Big-12 and PAC-12. Clearly the Big-12 outmaneuvered the PAC-12 and got a media deal done sooner, but it seems like the real killer blow to the PAC-12 was the clause that allowed the Big-12 increase the size of the media deal if they poached teams from other power 5 conferences.
How much value should Big East leadership put in having that same sort of clause in their next media deal? I assume media companies aren't keen on that sort of clause because it would cost them more money, so the Big East would have to leave some money on the table to get it. But it would put the Big East in an extremely strong position if/when the ACC does implode. Alternatively, there is a chance the ACC doesn't implode, in which case the Big East would leave money on the table for nothing (assuming Gonzaga is a no-go, and the SLU's and Dayton's of the world don't move the needle).
I read something where the ex-president of Fox sports Bob Thompson said that Fox generally will not do pro-rata for conference adds, but ESPN will do pro-rata. If you get approval from Fox to add the team, they will renegotiate the contract and pay depending on the brand name of the team. This is different from ESPN who will just say, "add a team and your increase is X dollars".[/b]
I think the current payout to BE teams is 4.5M a year, give or take. I don't know how much that can go up due to networks spending big on the Big 10, 12 and SEC. If I was a school president, I would be very cautious on turning down any offer from Fox. 99% of the BE schools are very well off financially and the cost of not being on a big TV network outweighs arguing over a few million a year in a TV deal. Just my 2 cents.
FWIW, I saw on The Boneyard, UCONN board, that Fox Sports still needs about the same number of games that the Big East provides in a season. Someone did an an analysis looking at the other conference contracts and what % if games goes to where, as in ESPN, Big 10 Network, etc. Pac12 demise even helps the Big East case too
FWIW, I saw on The Boneyard, UCONN board, that Fox Sports still needs about the same number of games that the Big East provides in a season. Someone did an an analysis looking at the other conference contracts and what % if games goes to where, as in ESPN, Big 10 Network, etc. Pac12 demise even helps the Big East case too
Thank you for providing that insight! I was wondering what the new Big 10 and Big 12 contracts did for the Fox inventory. Hoping Fox is still the partner with a few games on CBS sports network. I would not prefer to go to ESPN, because that would probably mean ESPN plus for games and not nearly the exposure as we have today. Fox does a great job with BE basketball imho.Big East had a lot going for it Media Wise
Anyone have a sense of how long the next Big East media TV deal might be? Does it make more sense to align the expiration with when another major conference's deal expires (ACC 2036?), or to set it to expire before/after other conferences?
Big East had a lot going for it Media Wise
1. Proven track record of viewers makes it easy to value
2. Major Markets
3. Championship Pedigree
4. Big Coaching Personalties
5. Consistency of Rosters year to hear
creates Viewer interest
6. BET is historic and meaningful
I agree Fox has great production values and has done a lot for the Big East . I like that they sub out some to CBS Sports . CBS Sports has increased the Network games a little bit as well. Looking forward to the next contract .
If I’m Val, I want our next media deal to come up 1-2 years before the ACC’s and negotiate both deals with ACC-poaching in mind.
I think the BE should sign its best deal now and not put too much thought into a potential ACC break-up. Let the chips fall where they may when that occurs.Agreed. The ACC appears to be set up for an ugly breakup/reconfiguration. I'd steer clear and pick up the pieces, if there are any, after. I think the Big12, being an instigator in the P12 demise, made sense for it's own preservation. I don't think the BE needs the ACC to fall apart, so why get involved.
Happy Anniversary!Should have been called The Big10 Secret Shopper Agreement.
https://bigten.org/news/2021/8/24/general-acc-big-ten-and-pac-12-announce-historic-alliance.aspx
Happy Anniversary!
https://bigten.org/news/2021/8/24/general-acc-big-ten-and-pac-12-announce-historic-alliance.aspx
Based on the presser about the alliance, I can confidently say it will be a colossal failure
He was being sarcastic….you know Uncle Rico style.
where is Rico? doesn't feel like he's posting with usual frequency lately.
Not sure if you guys heard, but thr poster behind the Uncle Rico account got busted for violating his sex offender registration and is in the can for awhile.
Not sure if you guys heard, but thr poster behind the Uncle Rico account got busted for violating his sex offender registration and is in the can for awhile.
Not sure if you guys heard, but thr poster behind the Uncle Rico account got busted for violating his sex offender registration and is in the can for awhile.
If this is true it would be creepy.
The fact you know this though would be right up there too.
It's what i do. I drink and I know things.
Not sure if you guys heard, but thr poster behind the Uncle Rico account got busted for violating his sex offender registration and is in the can for awhile.
If you are like me, it’s a positive correlation.
Agreed. The ACC appears to be set up for an ugly breakup/reconfiguration. I'd steer clear and pick up the pieces, if there are any, after. I think the Big12, being an instigator in the P12 demise, made sense for it's own preservation. I don't think the BE needs the ACC to fall apart, so why get involved.
UNC Womans Soccer coach opposed to Stanford and Cal joining ACC
https://www.wralsportsfan.com/die-on-the-vine-unc-s-dorrance-not-interested-in-adding-stanford-cal-to-the-acc/21012562/
UNC Womans Soccer coach opposed to Stanford and Cal joining ACCWhile this is significant, I would not expect the ACC to make a decision until the Wake Forest men's gymnastics coach weighs in.
https://www.wralsportsfan.com/die-on-the-vine-unc-s-dorrance-not-interested-in-adding-stanford-cal-to-the-acc/21012562/
You must drink a lot
While this is significant, I would not expect the ACC to make a decision until the Wake Forest men's gymnastics coach weighs in.Well played
SMU, Cal and Stanford are invited to join the ACC.
What was SMU getting for TV now? What are they giving up? $15, $20 million?
The side benefits (attendance etc) of the ACC should cover old conference receipts.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand no one is even remotely excited.
Feels a lot like a shotgun wedding.
Also, SMU got picked up by the ACC before UConn, lol
It is a shotgun wedding but the crap of the ACC is excited about it. The likes of Cuse, Pitt, BC, etc know they will only be a power school for as long as the ACC stays alive. This move takes the required number of votes to dissolve the conference from 8 to 10 and they just stuffed the balloy box with three more schools that will vote to keep the ACC together. It also gives them some buffer room if any schools were to find their way out of the GoR on their own. Theres a clause that allows ESpN to renegotiate the ACCs contract if they fall below 15 schools, this gives them a 3 school buffer.This is a win for the ACC . ESPN is also happy.
The biggest loser here is ESPN. They didn't put any stipulations on quality of addition when they allowed for expansion in the ACCs contract.
Also, SMU got picked up by the ACC before UConn, lol
It is a shotgun wedding but the crap of the ACC is excited about it. The likes of Cuse, Pitt, BC, etc know they will only be a power school for as long as the ACC stays alive. This move takes the required number of votes to dissolve the conference from 8 to 10 and they just stuffed the balloy box with three more schools that will vote to keep the ACC together. It also gives them some buffer room if any schools were to find their way out of the GoR on their own. Theres a clause that allows ESpN to renegotiate the ACCs contract if they fall below 15 schools, this gives them a 3 school buffer.
The biggest loser here is ESPN. They didn't put any stipulations on quality of addition when they allowed for expansion in the ACCs contract.
Also, SMU got picked up by the ACC before UConn, lol
This is a win for the ACC . ESPN is also happy.
UNC Board of Trustees voted against this deal, will be interesting to see which schools voted for it. Or if UNC President ignored the Board.
SMU will be receiving $0 from the ACC for 7 years as part of the deal.
SMU is giving up about $8 million a year. They are making a bet that they can make that up on the back end of the ACC deal, which will be about five or six seasons beyond when their 0% payout is done. Not sure that's a great bet but SMU has the cash.
Hell, they could take $50M out of their $2B endowment and treat it like an alternative investment.
This is a win for the ACC . ESPN is also happy.
UNC Board of Trustees voted against this deal, will be interesting to see which schools voted for it. Or if UNC President ignored the Board.
This is a win for the ACC . ESPN is also happy.I think it is a win for the ACC. This is a big win for FSU, Miami, Clemson, NCST & UNC. Is there any doubt they have changed their vote (maybe not the U) because they have been given an exit path from the ACC?
UNC Board of Trustees voted against this deal, will be interesting to see which schools voted for it. Or if UNC President ignored the Board.
PAC12 is down to 2.
All that remains to be done is merge with the Mountain West, presumably under the PAC12 brand
PAC12 is down to 2.2PAC?
All that remains to be done is merge with the Mountain West, presumably under the PAC12 brand
2PAC?We have a winner!
We have a winner!
PAC12 is down to 2.
All that remains to be done is merge with the Mountain West, presumably under the PAC12 brand
Another thought... this makes the disintegration of the ACC less likely now. Even if FSU, UNC & Clemson leave, they still have 15 schools to hold things together, at least for now. Much lower chance now that some of the ACC schools would be left behind as potential options for the Big East.
American targeting Army to replace SMU
Would then have Army and Navy in same conference
https://www.si.com/.amp/college/2023/09/01/aac-wants-army-football-smu-leaves-for-acc-conference-realignment-report
SMU, Cal and Stanford are invited to join the ACC.
This must be very confusing to all those geography majors.
It's about time. Can't be the All Coasts Conference without the Pacific. Shame SMU isn't closer to the Gulf of Mexico, but I guess it'll do.
Does Lake Michigan count for the Domers?
Oregon State and Washington State have a meaningful inheritance as last men standing in Pac-12
https://theathletic.com/4826750/2023/09/01/oregon-state-washington-state-pac-12-mwc/?amp=1
To me the question regarding the PAC12 is will some type of deal emerge for teams to leave the MW/AAC to create a new PAC12 soon, or will everything wait until 2026 when the MW TV deal ends and the teams can leave without penalty.
There isn't a lot of benefit for Oregon/Washington St. to join the existing MW. Too many crap teams and not a significant TV deal. They can make more money off Tourney credits for the next several years than they would by joining the MW.
The MWC has a lot of leverage here. Oregon St. & Washington St. have less than a year to find a new conference or re-build the PAC, because without action, they have no TV deal & no conference games starting Fall 2024. They'll have the windfall from the departed, but without conference foes to fill out the schedules (and very little time & opportunities to scrounge together other opponents), Oregon St. & Washington St. face even more program damage from missing games, not being televised, & losing even more recruits.
OSU & WSU playing each other 8 times back and forth would be hilarious.
OSU & WSU playing each other 8 times back and forth would be hilarious.
I always knew Dexter Akanno would be a conference player of the year based on his high school videos.
I think OSU and WSU have more leverage than you think. From what I read, they actually can legally keep the Pac 12 together for another season beyond this one because the NCAA gives a one year exemption if a conference falls below the minimum of seven members. So they could conceivably exist as a two member conference with the NCAA autobid in each championship, and maybe even a BCS playoff spot.
Now this could all be nonsense, but it would be kind of fun!
After next season, my understanding is the MWC grant of rights either goes away or becomes easier for those departing to manage. Therefore OSU and WSU can invite the more attractive schools to the Pac-12 (SDSU) while leaving the others behind (Wyoming).
Just curious, what ever happened to George Kliavkoff?
He has been quiet lately while still collecting his $3.5M annual salary. LOL.Maybe he is the smartest commissioner in college? 8-)
Washington State and Oregon State sue to protect their right to control Pac-12 futureNot a good look for the 10 schools. OSU and WSU deserve that money and then some. When I say 'deserve' I mean they have legal rights to the funds and it looks like they are the only board members. IMO.
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/38353933/oregon-state-washington-state-file-complaint-pac-12?platform=amp
Two things in the conference-switcheroo realm that caught my eye this morning:+++ When listening to ESPN radio last week, they spent time talking about football and basketball teams splitting from the schools and operating under a licensing agreement for the name. (I can't remember the exact show and hosts) The logic is that these professional athletes should not be subject to thinly veiled academic requirements.
++ Eight Pac-12 teams, including the two left behind by the Power-4, are ranked in this week's AP football poll.
++ The Athletic's Dana O'Neil says the NCAA basketball tournament needs to expand to at least 96 teams, giving big conferences still more entrants, to help keep the Power-4 football conferences from breaking off and forming their own hoops tourney. https://theathletic.com/4849778/2023/09/11/ncaa-tournament-expansion-realignment/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=7685257
If they split away, Universities like MU will lose alumni engagement opportunities and money on multiple levels (tickets, tv contracts, donations, etc.).
Would there be a winnable lawsuit against the four conferences because of a monopoly? Just curious. It seems like that would cause irreparable financial harm to a significant number of non football schools.
Two things in the conference-switcheroo realm that caught my eye this morning:
++ The Athletic's Dana O'Neil says the NCAA basketball tournament needs to expand to at least 96 teams, giving big conferences still more entrants, to help keep the Power-4 football conferences from breaking off and forming their own hoops tourney. https://theathletic.com/4849778/2023/09/11/ncaa-tournament-expansion-realignment/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=7685257
Eh. The conferences determine their champion. If you want to "give the regular season more meaning," blame the conferences for taking away that meaning.
The tournament has needed to expand for years. Just do it.
Yet another reason for me to hate college football and what it’s doing to the athletic landscape.As someone who enjoys college football, I have to agree with you.
I still say expand to 80, not 96. The general guideline is 25% of participants and 96 would be more than that. Going to 80 would allow the addition of 12 at-large teams. The bulk would come from high-majors, insuring they get their money.
The key is expanding from the First Four games to the First Four sites with four games at each site. On Tuesday and Wednesday, each of the sites (I'd say Dayton, Omaha, Bloomington, and either Knoxville or Winston-Salem) play one at-large play-in and one auto-bid play-in. Then you need to structure 11-16 every year as follows:
11-seeds: at-large play-ins for true seeds 41-48 on Tuesday/Wednesday
12-seeds: at-large play-ins for true seeds 49-56 on Tuesday/Wednesday
13-seeds: auto-bids for true seeds 57-60
14-seeds: auto-bids for true seeds 61-64
15-seeds: auto-bid play-ins for true seeds 65-72
16-seeds: auto-bid play-ins for true seeds 73-80
This would likely give more at-large bids to high-majors as well as more opportunity for earning tourney credits on Tuesday/Wednesday, so high-majors win. It would also mean more tourney credits earned by low-majors on Tuesday/Wednesday (currently only 2 of the bottom 4 leagues can earn a Tuesday/Wednesday credit, this would insure 4 of the bottom 8), so the low-majors win. Finally, by weeding out 8 mid and low majors that only qualified because of winning their conference tournament, it would insure a higher quality field on Thursday/Friday so the fans also win. It would give a greater potential for upsets early because the quality of teams on the 13-16 lines would be improved across the board, but would also increase the likelihood of second and third weekends with more established brands because seeds 11-12 would have more big brands which is what fans profess to want after the first weekend chaos.
Everyone involved wins, from the players to the teams to the leagues to the fans.
I still say expand to 80, not 96. The general guideline is 25% of participants and 96 would be more than that. Going to 80 would allow the addition of 12 at-large teams. The bulk would come from high-majors, insuring they get their money.Damn, I was told there would be no math. ;D
The key is expanding from the First Four games to the First Four sites with four games at each site. On Tuesday and Wednesday, each of the sites (I'd say Dayton, Omaha, Bloomington, and either Knoxville or Winston-Salem) play one at-large play-in and one auto-bid play-in. Then you need to structure 11-16 every year as follows:
11-seeds: at-large play-ins for true seeds 41-48 on Tuesday/Wednesday
12-seeds: at-large play-ins for true seeds 49-56 on Tuesday/Wednesday
13-seeds: auto-bids for true seeds 57-60
14-seeds: auto-bids for true seeds 61-64
15-seeds: auto-bid play-ins for true seeds 65-72
16-seeds: auto-bid play-ins for true seeds 73-80
This would likely give more at-large bids to high-majors as well as more opportunity for earning tourney credits on Tuesday/Wednesday, so high-majors win. It would also mean more tourney credits earned by low-majors on Tuesday/Wednesday (currently only 2 of the bottom 4 leagues can earn a Tuesday/Wednesday credit, this would insure 4 of the bottom 8), so the low-majors win. Finally, by weeding out 8 mid and low majors that only qualified because of winning their conference tournament, it would insure a higher quality field on Thursday/Friday so the fans also win. It would give a greater potential for upsets early because the quality of teams on the 13-16 lines would be improved across the board, but would also increase the likelihood of second and third weekends with more established brands because seeds 11-12 would have more big brands which is what fans profess to want after the first weekend chaos.
Everyone involved wins, from the players to the teams to the leagues to the fans.
Yuck. First round byes make more sense than a bunch of play in games for crappy seeds.
The issue behind expanding the NCAA is engagement. The more teams, the more alumni, the more demand for tickets and the greater the demand for television.
The NCAA hasn't had the best 64 teams in the country in its tournament for years. Even in a bad year, Syracuse could beat Coastal Carolina 10 times out of 10. The NCAA loves to romanticize the Maryland-Baltimore Counties taking down Virginia, but that's happened like once in the history of seeding.
We'll get 96 and maybe even more in the NCAA tournament because, well, it is profitable to add more teams.
The issue behind expanding the NCAA is engagement. The more teams, the more alumni, the more demand for tickets and the greater the demand for television.I love the Costal Carolina's of the world. It makes for great stories when it happens. It also reminds us that college hoops is more than the P5 (sorry P12). Gonzaga used to be UMBC but the great system has rewarded them and their fans.
The NCAA hasn't had the best 64 teams in the country in its tournament for years. Even in a bad year, Syracuse could beat Coastal Carolina 10 times out of 10. The NCAA loves to romanticize the Maryland-Baltimore Counties taking down Virginia, but that's happened like once in the history of seeding.
We'll get 96 and maybe even more in the NCAA tournament because, well, it is profitable to add more teams.
The NCAA hasn't had the best 64 teams in the country in its tournament for years.
Judge grants temporary restraining order in favor of Washington State and Oregon State in their suit against Pac-12. Allows time to determine who will control Pac-12 future
My guess is Washington State and Oregon State will prevail , which will lead to a reverse merger with Mountain West being absorbed by Pac-12
https://apnews.com/article/oregon-state-washington-state-kliavkoff-pac12-34acf803402e3c5bf99d16d7ee398c67
The departing schools don’t have a leg to stand on legally. The least they could do was to leave OSU and WSU in peace; instead they decided to make another money grab with no basis.7 of the departing schools told CU that had no voting rights after CU announced their departure. Should be interesting how they explain the change of mind.
7 of the departing schools told CU that had no voting rights after CU announced their departure. Should be interesting how they explain the change of mind.
That's already built in. 48 teams get a bye to Thursday/Friday. If you don't want to watch Tuesday/Wednesday, you don't have to, and you still get a better product when the field is narrowed to 64.
The departing schools don’t have a leg to stand on legally. The least they could do was to leave OSU and WSU in peace; instead they decided to make another money grab with no basis.
The Departed are just trying to force a settlement. I am glad the NCAA's mission is all about "supporting amateur athletics"! 🤷I'm normally not a more tax guy, but the fact that that this money is not taxed at some reasonable level is insane and is unfair to US taxpayers and all citizens. Add to it that most of the beneficiaries are tax funded institutions.
Time to tax the golden goose!
I'm normally not a more tax guy, but the fact that that this money is not taxed at some reasonable level is insane and is unfair to US taxpayers and all citizens. Add to it that most of the beneficiaries are tax funded institutions.
Like the NCAA under which it is organized, the conference qualifies as a charitable organization because, in the words of the IRS, it “fosters national or international amateur sports competition.”
The Departed are just trying to force a settlement. I am glad the NCAA's mission is all about "supporting amateur athletics"! 🤷
Time to tax the golden goose!
With NIL, there is nothing "amateur" about college athletics any more. Tax them.NIL became a sham about 10 minutes after enacted. Yes, some athletes have legitimate deals capitalizing in actual NIL but the vast majority of "NIL" money is pure Pay for Play and recruiting enticements; just like all pro sports. Good for the players.
Watching UConn football. They are getting handled easily by Florida……International University. Them in the Big 12? Please, gimme a break.
Why are you intentionally watching UConn football?
Big East football day for me. Watching Villanova UCF, as my daughter goes to UCF.Sorry, I'm not tracking you. Villanova was the #8 team 2 years ago. Certainly no NDSU but respectable.
UCF with a backup QB is up 17-0 in the first quarter.
People that want Marquette to have a football team really needs to watch some Big East football. Yikes.
Sorry, I'm not tracking you. Villanova was the #8 team 2 years ago. Certainly no NDSU but respectable.
Number 8 in tier two. The football I saw today looked like high school level from Nova. And it looked like D2 football from UConn most of the day.I agree with this analysis
Number 8 in tier two. The football I saw today looked like high school level from Nova. And it looked like D2 football from UConn most of the day.Big XII v FCS as a data point?
Why are you intentionally watching UConn football?
Since announcing the move to the ACC, SMU has only raised $100 million in the past 7 days.
Makes you wonder if they like football in Texas.
Seriously, MU has no business playing in that world for football. Other than size and private Catholic/Christian affiliation of SMU and TCU, MU does not compare to schools like that.
Donors will float any and all losses that result from this deal. The gamble is whether the ACC still even exists at the end of all this...but their hope is that when all the dust settles this opportunity will give them the platform to prove they deserve a seat at the table in whatever new changes/realignments occur.
Sorry, I'm not tracking you. Villanova was the #8 team 2 years ago. Certainly no NDSU but respectable.
Seth Davis reporting Gonzaga to the Big XII has picked up some steam and may happen as soon as next season.
If it happens, it happens. I would have rather the Big East have picked them up, but I'd also rather the Big XII go after Gonzaga than take UConn from us.
I would guess that if the Zags go to B12, that would open the door for Uconn to follow. Yormark wants to assemble teams for a basketball only TV contract by end of decade.
I would guess that if the Zags go to B12, that would open the door for Uconn to follow. Yormark wants to assemble teams for a basketball only TV contract by end of decade.They will be diluting the football money if they add UCONN. The Fox deal only pays more for adding existing P5 schools. Seems unlikely to me, but so does Cal and Stanford in the ACC.
They will be diluting the football money if they add UCONN. The Fox deal only pays more for adding existing P5 schools. Seems unlikely to me, but so does Cal and Stanford in the ACC.
They will be diluting the football money if they add UCONN. The Fox deal only pays more for adding existing P5 schools. Seems unlikely to me, but so does Cal and Stanford in the ACC.
If UConn and Gonzaga go to the B12, and if the BEast is looking like it's even possibly on shaky ground in the ensuing 5-10 years, I hope we can join several other top BEast hoops schools in whatever basketball-centric thing the B12 would be putting together.
Yormark has publicly stated during the next round of TV deals, he wants 2 separate contracts: 1 for football and 1 for basketball. This would open the door for schools like Gonzaga and other basketball only schools. In this scenario, there is no diluting of football money.Anything is possible 6 years from now.
Four Big East schools play football. They could use more rivals.
Wonder who will be paying increased $$$ - ESPN or Fox or both. Fox could save money, and hurt ESPN, by just paying Gonzaga to be part of the BE/Fox deal. Despite the BE currently in ongoing negotiations with Fox, surprised it hasn't been floated.
Gonzaga to the Big East, and UConn to an all-sports league, make a ton of sense from a long-term perspective. We will see.
I get the impression from reading Val's interview, that there wasn't much mutual interest in the Zags joining the BE.Saw an article (don't have the link) that multiple B12 presidents said Gonzaga ain't happening.
Saw an article (don't have the link) that multiple B12 presidents said Gonzaga ain't happening.
Saw an article (don't have the link) that multiple B12 presidents said Gonzaga ain't happening.
Yeah honestly I don't understand their commissioners fascination with it.
I'm personally not a fan of Gonzaga to the BE...but at least I can understand why that might appeal to some. Gonzaga has a great MBB program. The BE is a great MBB conference. Gonzaga offers what the BE values most.
But Gonzaga doesn't offer what the B12 values most. I don't know why B12 would take them. As much as it pains me to say it, UConn to the B12 makes a lot more sense to me than Gonzaga to the B12.
Big 12 wanted to add UConn as a bball member only - this is a non starter for Uconn due to finances. My guess is, at this point, Uconn waits to ACC implosion and gets full membership there.
Yeah honestly I don't understand their commissioners fascination with it.
I think Yormack has accepted that the B12 will forever be the "third" power football conference, far behind the B1G/SEC. I think he sees value in cementing the B12's status as the top basketball conference, invest in the conference's strength so to speak.
I have no idea if his idea will work (right now it's not financially feasible without the B12's current members taking a paycut). However, I think he is the biggest threat to the Big East's future. If the P3 start taking basketball only schools....I don't see the BEast surviving.
I think Yormack has accepted that the B12 will forever be the "third" power football conference, far behind the B1G/SEC. I think he sees value in cementing the B12's status as the top basketball conference, invest in the conference's strength so to speak.
I have no idea if his idea will work (right now it's not financially feasible without the B12's current members taking a paycut). However, I think he is the biggest threat to the Big East's future. If the P3 start taking basketball only schools....I don't see the BEast surviving.
I just don't think it will be financially feasible.
Yormark has publicly stated during the next round of TV deals, he wants 2 separate contracts: 1 for football and 1 for basketball. This would open the door for schools like Gonzaga and other basketball only schools. In this scenario, there is no diluting of football money.
We keep going in circles on this point: UConn is excited about the prospect of a full B12 membership; the Big 12 is excited about the prospect of UConn as a basketball-only member. Neither party is excited about the same potential outcome.
We don't have any evidence that jumping to the Big 12 on a non-football deal makes any sense for UConn, financially or otherwise, especially given their exorbitant Big East exit fees. We're all conditioned to assume that any non-P3 school would come running to the SEC/B10/B12, but that logic only holds when an invitee gets a piece of the football pie.
Furthering the same point, I don't see the logic in assuming the Big East is dead if the P3 starts adding basketball-only schools. Are P3 conferences going to pay a premium for the top basketball schools to draw them away from the Big East? Why would that even be appealing for P3 schools; isn't the theoretical motivation that they want to make and keep more money? If a UConn would give them a media deal bump, but they'd have to distribute that extra revenue directly to UConn to lure them in the first place, what's the point of making the add?
It's not now. But eventually the Power 3 will reach saturation in football. My guess is that they won't be content there and will search for other ways to increase their power and revenue. I could see many ways that this plays out, one of them being expanding in basketball only. I think a basketball conference can take on more teams than football before reaching saturation. No idea if this will come to pass, but I think Yormack is interested in making it happen.
I think (I maybe wrong) the reference to 'saturation point' means number of schools in a conference or P3. That has played out with OSU and WSU being kicked out. Additionally, I believe the writing is on the wall for a number of ACC institutions.
I have been hearing phrases like "reach saturation in football" for years now - maybe even decades. And if anything, football seems to be driving the bus more and more. College football viewership is through the roof. The marginal value that a basketball-only schools going to bring one of these conferences seems so miniscule to me that its not worth the effort.
Right now regular season college basketball has a limited audience. Networks have a ton of inventory. And if the networks want to see the Zags more, its probably just easier to ask Kansas, Duke, etc. to just go schedule them non-conference.
Eliminating a rival conference, consolidating power, and mostly because ESPN or FOX tells them to.
If the P3 start adding basketball only schools, it will be because it makes sense for them to do so. It doesn't right now, so they haven't. Will that always be the case? I don't know.
Unfortunately, I think your take is spot on. ESPN happily eliminated the original BE and produced "A Requiem for the Big East". It was like a mafioso taking out a rival and then sending a massive amount of flowers to his funeral.
It was not that long ago that scoopers laughed at conference realignment, smugly confident that we were safe and could grab a bag of popcorn and watch it all unfold.
I think (I maybe wrong) the reference to 'saturation point' means number of schools in a conference or P3. That has played out with OSU and WSU being kicked out. Additionally, I believe the writing is on the wall for a number of ACC institutions.
Thanks to Shaka, I don't have any fear we'd be left behind in a P3 basketball-only move. Had we stuck with Wojo who knows. The Shaka hire might end up being the single best decision MU ever made.
Thanks to Shaka, I don't have any fear we'd be left behind in a P3 basketball-only move. Had we stuck with Wojo who knows. The Shaka hire might end up being the single best decision MU ever made.
I hope you are right.
They took out the BE because of football though.
Marquette will join the A-10
Big 12 wanted to add UConn as a bball member only - this is a non starter for Uconn due to finances. My guess is, at this point, Uconn waits to ACC implosion and gets full membership there.
Even then, I don't understand the value of adding basketball only schools.I totally agree. I think Yormark is doing his job (well) and exploring all ideas. He is going to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. I wouldn't be surprised if Val has had some ideas that once vetted seemed not so good.
Thanks to Shaka, I don't have any fear we'd be left behind in a P3 basketball-only move. Had we stuck with Wojo who knows. The Shaka hire might end up being the single best decision MU ever made.the hiring of Al McGuire and Crean getting DWade eligible might rank higher, imo…but I hear ya.
the hiring of Al McGuire and Crean getting DWade eligible might rank higher, imo…but I hear ya.
Ok but what if we don't get Wade but keep Dameon mason, make the sweet 16 in 03 and make it again in 04?
What if Tom Crean built the soccer stadium?What if Freeway was on Dancing with the Stars?
What if Freeway was on Dancing with the Stars?
It is very clear that conferences will have different tv contracts for football and basketball in the future. That will happen the next time a major conference contract comes up for renewal. It makes too much sense for everyone. The only question is when, not if. The other question is what happens after that becomes reality. Yes, theoretically, it does open up the P3 for basketball-only schools. But, just like those conferences can only handle so many football schools, they can also only handle so many b'ball schools - or so I would think.Not that I disagree, but if the contract split is, as you suggest, set in stone, what happens to the non-revenue sports that have been forced on networks to get the football/basketball deals?
What if Freeway was on Dancing with the Stars?
Sacred Heart, Merrimack to Join Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC) Next Season
Billy McGuire October 25, 2023
http://fairfieldmirror.com/sports/sacred-heart-merrimack-to-join-metro-atlantic-athletic-conference-maac-next-season/
Also, it looks like Army football only to the AAC is official.
So how do you pronounce MAAC?
Assuming that the MAC is "mack," does that mean the MAAC is "make?" Or do you elongate the a-sound like "Maaaack?"
And if the answer is "just like the MAC," then that's just stupid and they need to rebrand.
What a great question. My fiancé was on the swim team at Marist College and they all pronounce the MAAC as "mack", which confuses me to this day being from the midwest and pronouncing MAC the same way.
Sacred Heart, Merrimack to Join Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference (MAAC) Next Season
Billy McGuire October 25, 2023
http://fairfieldmirror.com/sports/sacred-heart-merrimack-to-join-metro-atlantic-athletic-conference-maac-next-season/
Also, it looks like Army football only to the AAC is official.
So how do you pronounce MAAC?
Assuming that the MAC is "mack," does that mean the MAAC is "make?" Or do you elongate the a-sound like "Maaaack?"
And if the answer is "just like the MAC," then that's just stupid and they need to rebrand.
The Midwestern MAC is MAC Attack or Maction, never just MAC. So, NE MAAC can be Mack
So how do you pronounce MAAC?
Assuming that the MAC is "mack," does that mean the MAAC is "make?" Or do you elongate the a-sound like "Maaaack?"
And if the answer is "just like the MAC," then that's just stupid and they need to rebrand.
Airing this week on ESPN+
The MAC vs. MAAC basketball challenge.
Maybe to you younger folk. But to us older midwesterners, who saw the likes of Central Michigan and Toledo battle for the right to play PCAA champs Fresno State in the California Raisin Bowl, it's just MAC.
The Midwestern MAC is MAC Attack or Maction, never just MAC. So, NE MAAC can be Mack
YES! Winner keeps the "mack" pronunciation for a year.
Airing this week on ESPN+Didn't it used to be on The Ocho?
The MAC vs. MAAC basketball challenge.
The MAC vs. MAAC basketball challenge.
Airing this week on ESPN+
The MAC vs. MAAC basketball challenge.
VCU rumored to be in talks to join the AAC
https://x.com/hitmenhoops/status/1717213461900374247?s=46&t=5FASZRHgruhjFLVJKu-4pQ
Story in top right of attached. Your take? Val is the polar opposite of Yormark in terms of keeping quiet about future plans, so this surprised me a bit.
https://scorezagsscore.com › 2023 › 10 › 24 › big-east-commissioner-val-ackerman-no-better-fit-for-g
I think WSU and OSU are going to prevail in their litigationI think you are right. OSU and WSU appear to rightfully have the upper hand in this issue, but obviously severely disadvantaged in the big picture.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38744725/osu-wsu-ask-court-strip-all-departing-pac-12-schools-board-seats
I think you are right. OSU and WSU appear to rightfully have the upper hand in this issue, but obviously severely disadvantaged in the big picture.
Not a good look for UW, UO and the rest. Perhaps Washington and Oregon legislators will impose a UCLA "tax" payment to Cal type arrangement on UW and UO. I support those intergovernmental transfers of resources.
Link is broken but think you’re referring to this. It did raise my eyebrows.
Big East commissioner Val Ackerman: “There’s no better fit for Gonzaga than the Big East, if you look at the kind of school they are, basketball focus, their enrollment, their budget, it’s totally on point." Said they stay in touch with them.
https://x.com/nypost_brazille/status/1716937085561770074?s=46&t=it8D1ecjv7y0DPlekdEgBw
Good info, makes sense. I support the state's rights to govern and administer these types of issues as they see fit.
That's going to be harder to do in Oregon and Washington's case. UCLA and Berkeley are both part of the University of California System, so the System just had to do the transfer with Board approval. OU is governed separately from OSU. Ditto UW and WSU. So these transfers will have to be done at the State level and usually legislature don't really want to be involved in that. And they may not have much of authority anyway - Wisconsin is very much an outlier in how deep the legislature can get involved in the operations of the UW System.
I checked the link via "preview" and it worked for me, but thanks for catching the problem.
I think Vals' comments are extremely interesting. Sounds somewhat similar to what she said before UCONN joined the BE. She doesn't make very many remarks like this one.
Here is a direct link on Val's remarks.
https://scorezagsscore.com/2023/10/24/big-east-commissioner-val-ackerman-no-better-fit-for-gonzaga-than-the-big-east/
VCU rumored to be in talks to join the AAC
https://x.com/hitmenhoops/status/1717213461900374247?s=46&t=5FASZRHgruhjFLVJKu-4pQ
This is somewhat unfortunate because I always thought they could be a good addition to the BE.
This is somewhat unfortunate because I always thought they could be a good addition to the BE.
Even if they join the AAC I would think they would jump ship if the Big East wanted the them.
Unless they also want to start a football program.
If the Big East is adding, that's also another reason to think Gavitt Games might be on hold. Trying to put a positive spin on that.
Longshot - Maybe they are floating this rumor to apply some leverage in regards to the Big East?
Longshot - Maybe they are floating this rumor to apply some leverage in regards to the Big East?
If so, that is a dumb strategy. We just took UConn from the AAC but we wouldn’t be able to poach VCU? They should focus on winning more basketball games if they are looking for an invite to a big boy league.
If so, that is a dumb strategy. We just took UConn from the AAC but we wouldn’t be able to poach VCU? They should focus on winning more basketball games if they are looking for an invite to a big boy league.
VCU has made the NCAA Tourney the same number of times as Marquette the past 20 years, 13. When Marquette was invited to a "Big Boy League," it had made 2 of the previous 8 NCAA Tourneys.ok, but will you agree VCU doesn’t have a basketball pedigree as Marquette does? Will you agree VCU hasn’t had player talent over the last, say, 20 yrs as Marquette has had…the basketball budget…the facilities that MU has? VCU has definitely carved a niche, a solid fan base amongst a number of marquee tobacco road programs, but VCU isn’t necessarily a national draw as I see it. Equal ncaa tournament bids over 20 years is excellent, but not so sure VCU and MU are equal programs.
I'm all for a successful MUBB program and league, but these types of comments make me laugh.
ok, but will you agree VCU doesn’t have a basketball pedigree as Marquette does? Will you agree VCU hasn’t had player talent over the last, say, 20 yrs as Marquette has had…the basketball budget…the facilities that MU has? VCU has definitely carved a niche, a solid fan base amongst a number of marquee tobacco road programs, but VCU isn’t necessarily a national draw as I see it. Equal ncaa tournament bids over 20 years is excellent, but not so sure VCU and MU are equal programs.
VCU has made one S16 in its entire history. That is 1/16th the number as compared to Marquette. Adding Butler looks questionable in retrospect. Does Richmond even add a market when you already have DC? Winning the Colonial is great and all, and they’ve done well in a down A10 since joining, but does anyone really doubt they’d be bottomfeeders if they joined the Big East? They’ve been there for the taking for a decade and there is no smoke anywhere.
VCU has made one S16 in its entire history. That is 1/16th the number as compared to Marquette. Adding Butler looks questionable in retrospect. Does Richmond even add a market when you already have DC? Winning the Colonial is great and all, and they’ve done well in a down A10 since joining, but does anyone really doubt they’d be bottomfeeders if they joined the Big East? They’ve been there for the taking for a decade and there is no smoke anywhere.
Careful! Your ignorance is on full display. VCU was in the Final Four in 2011, having defeated USC, Georgetown, and Purdue by double digits enroute in Shaka's second season as their coach.
Also, I lived in Richmond for over 20 years and half of my company's business was in the DC area. They are totally different markets. Unlike you, I know this. Again, your ignorance is on full display.
I doubt that VCU will receive an invite to the BE due to its market size, but shoothoop's comments-"insecure, dismissive arrogance"-sums it up nicely..
I think most people would acknowledge that it’s much easier to get to the NCAA Tourney from the Big East than non Power 6 leagues.I would not be most people. IMO, most people in the know would say the exact opposite. Just my opinion.
VCU has made one S16 in its entire history. That is 1/16th the number as compared to Marquette. Adding Butler looks questionable in retrospect. Does Richmond even add a market when you already have DC? Winning the Colonial is great and all, and they’ve done well in a down A10 since joining, but does anyone really doubt they’d be bottomfeeders if they joined the Big East? They’ve been there for the taking for a decade and there is no smoke anywhere.
I would not be most people. IMO, most people in the know would say the exact opposite. Just my opinion.
I'd guess there are 15-20 teams in the tournament each year that would never make it if they were in the Big East.
Marquette is a much better basketball program than VCU.
The Big East is also a "big boy league" and the A10 is not.
I think VCU would do great in the Big East. If Gonzaga and current P6 schools were not available and the Big East needed to expand, VCU would be on the shortlist for me, might even be my top choice.
Marquette entered the Big East from Conference USA.
The Big East should stick with 11 teams if VCU is a serious suggestion.
I am not against expansion if it is reserved for really good programs or historic programs with traditional rivalries with existing members (Gonzaga and Syracuse immediately come to mind). VCU is not a value add.
If we lose members to realignment (UConn to Big12 for example), I'd be ok adding them to fill the hole, but there is absolutely no reason to add them when we already have 11 teams. They aren't going anywhere. We could add them at any time if truly needed.
That Conference USA was very different then, it was arguably a power conference as it included teams that are now part of power conferences such as Louisville, Cincinnati, TCU, SMU, Central Florida. Obviously it also had some teams that are now considered mid-majors but Conference USA at the time was, at the very least as good, if not better, than the AAC is today.
That Conference USA was very different then, it was arguably a power conference as it included teams that are now part of power conferences such as Louisville, Cincinnati, TCU, SMU, Central Florida. Obviously it also had some teams that are now considered mid-majors but Conference USA at the time was, at the very least as good, if not better, than the AAC is today.
Xavier and Butler played in the A10 before entering the Big East.
St. Joes made the Elite 8 the year after MUBB made the Final Four, something something pedigree.
Silly season.
Marquette is a much better basketball program than VCU.
The Big East is also a "big boy league" and the A10 is not.
I think VCU would do great in the Big East. If Gonzaga and current P6 schools were not available and the Big East needed to expand, VCU would be on the shortlist for me, might even be my top choice.
The top of CUSA had Charlotte Memphis Louisville Cincinnati, a better iteration of DePaul and us. I wouldn't use SMU UCF or that version of TCU to make this argument.
Butler was in the A10 for 1 year, they weren't an A10 team. Zero players in that roster were recruited to be A10 players.
A10 has had a decent few years this past decade finishing above the PAC12 & ACC in NET (or RPI back in the old days) not saying it's a big boy league but certainly above 90% of the crap that's out there.
All this to say yes we're snobby and dismissive of VCU, I doubt they'd replicate Creighton's success but I don't think they'd fall flat either. Too committed for that to happen.
“Yes we’re snobby and dismissive.”
Marquette made the NCAA Tourney 6 times in the previous 22 seasons before entering the Big East.
Marquette is a much better basketball program than VCU.
The Big East is also a "big boy league" and the A10 is not.
I think VCU would do great in the Big East. If Gonzaga and current P6 schools were not available and the Big East needed to expand, VCU would be on the shortlist for me, might even be my top choice.
Yes? Isn't that what I'm saying? Or did you want me to write 'unwarranted snobby and dismissive?
You and some others might be snobby and dismissive, but I’m not.
I believe some of these people have a deep, irrational, insecure, fear of some of MUBB going back to those days. And I think that says more about them than it does MUBB or other teams.
The Big East should stick with 11 teams if VCU is a serious suggestion.
I am not against expansion if it is reserved for really good programs or historic programs with traditional rivalries with existing members (Gonzaga and Syracuse immediately come to mind). VCU is not a value add.
If we lose members to realignment (UConn to Big12 for example), I'd be ok adding them to fill the hole, but there is absolutely no reason to add them when we already have 11 teams. They aren't going anywhere. We could add them at any time if truly needed.
But unlike MU, there isn't anything to "resurrect" at those schools
Why? Because those fan bases had the balls to come on this message board in 2013 and tell us that MU should get on its knees and beg to get an invite to their second-rate league.
I'm not suggesting we add them. But if a potential TV partner says "you should add VCU," then you add VCU.
Of course Gonzaga and Syracuse are better options, but I think VCU is a way better option than schools like Dayton and SLU.
Are you sitting down?
What if I told you the MUBB Head Coach has made the Sweet 16 once in 14 seasons as a Head Coach? And, he’s coaching in a Big Boy League. New Shaka Smart nickname: Bottom Feeder.
“Yes we’re snobby and dismissive.”
Marquette made the NCAA Tourney 6 times in the previous 22 seasons before entering the Big East.
You're taking the wrong lesson from this. The lesson is, that despite only making 6/22 NCAA tournaments, Marquette was STILL invited to join the Big East. That's because Marquette has loads of tradition, fan support and resources that the University devotes to basketball. It pays their coaches a lot of money and 80% fills an NBA arena with regularity.
I feel like this is just a generational difference here. If you became an MU fan in the pre-Big East era, you probably have sympathy for the plight of schools like VCU, Dayton, and SLU, and are more open to taking a chance on them, knowing that MU resurrected itself. But unlike MU, there isn't anything to "resurrect" at those schools, they'd be entering a whole new stratosphere that those programs have never consistently operated at.
Does the Big East have some down programs? Obviously. Do we need more? No. Is Duquesne at the same level as DePaul? No. Am I snobby and dismissive when it comes to the A10? Yes. Why? Because those fan bases had the balls to come on this message board in 2013 and tell us that MU should get on its knees and beg to get an invite to their second-rate league. Instead, we just took their best programs, blew them out of the water, and left the rest to be the mid-major they are today. Screw them.
Calling your argument valid is snobby and dismissive? I think barking up the wrong tree here lol I'm agreeing with your argument and giving credence to the A10 having some high major years.
You literally said you were snobby and dismissive.
This is such a dumb argument that it proves my point. Do you realize what I happened to our last coach? He got fired because he couldn't make a tournament run. VCU was perfectly happy keeping Shaka for life based on that 2011 run. At MU, he'll be gone in five years if we haven't made a Sweet Sixteen. The expectations are worlds apart.
VCU would obviously get better if added to the Big East. But so would about 275 other programs in CBB. There is little reason to talk about adding them unless something drastic happens with the ACC, which I'll admit is a real possibility.
You're taking the wrong lesson from this. The lesson is, that despite only making 6/22 NCAA tournaments, Marquette was STILL invited to join the Big East. That's because Marquette has loads of tradition, fan support and resources that the University devotes to basketball. It pays their coaches a lot of money and 80% fills an NBA arena with regularity.
Yeah "we" in this context means "Marquette fans as a whole" which we are. We constantly thumb our noses at other programs (call Dayton the epitome of mid major) and have named everything but the university AL because he allowed us to turn our noses up at other programs. But if you had read my post rather than fixating on the wrong interpretation of a single line you'd have seen I said VCU wouldn't fall flat and defended the A10's metric success in certain years.
Take that chip off your shoulder and you might realize not everyone attacking your viewpoint.
I am not in your "We" here. I believe it's popular on this message board which is a teeny tiny fraction of the fan base. And regardless it is something of which I don't do or with which I agree.
I am 100% focused on the snobby dismissive part. That was El Guerrero's first comment about Big Boy League etc...that is 100% why I am here replying.
I am not in your "We" here. I believe it's popular on this message board which is a teeny tiny fraction of the fan base. And regardless it is something of which I don't do or with which I agree.
I am 100% focused on the snobby dismissive part. That was El Guerrero's first comment about Big Boy League etc...that is 100% why I am here replying.
Now you're just being argumentative for arguments sake. Anybody would know you weren't included in that based on your posts. I said that we based on the old ESPN message boards, posts on Reddit, posts you see on 247 & on Holyland of hoops. Still a small percentage yes but MU fans have a rep for needing to tell everyone about where our tradition is among the top programs and you pointing out a bad stretch doesn't negate that "we" still are all part of the MU fandom which has that reputation.
I'll be sure to write out specific exceptions in the future. There'll be a sign up sheet for anyone who doesn't thumb their nose at VCU next time I use we.
You realize that bragging rights are a significant reason why college athletics are popular right? Why do we have an AP poll and a national tournament in March if not to rub our superiority in the faces of those beneath us? That is part of what makes college basketball fun.
I really don't understand the need to defend the honor of VCU, a program that you acknowledge isn't on the same level as MU or the rest of the Big East. I'll give elite mid-major programs their due but that doesn't mean I need to acknowledge them as a peer.
That’s a lot of words that don’t include Duquesne and DePaul. I’m pretty fast but you are giving me a good workout catching up to all of these moving goalposts.
Your post here perfectly illustrates the same point as your first post on the subject. I haven’t seen anyone this obtuse since Warden Samuel Norton when talking with Andy Dufresne in his office.
I am a lot of things but obtuse isn't one of them. Review the bolded part above and consider whether you're making any sense.
Actually you are projecting the opposite about being argumentative. I don’t need to argue MUBB’s historical place, and, I don’t need to be dismissive and snobby of other schools and leagues.
I also have a realization of where Marquette is and where Marquette has been, good, bad, indifferent included.
Actually you are projecting the opposite about being argumentative.
Shoot, sometimes when people don't respond to your arguments it is because they are dumb and don't merit a response.
VCU would be a fine addition. Not great, not a must-add, but not terrible. I looked back at the history, 10 years before joining the Big East and 10 years since. Here are the numbers for our additions:
Butler
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 61.5
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 65.1
10-year kenpom range BEFORE: 12-145
10-year kenpom range AFTER: 20-121
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5 (including 2020)
Creighton
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 58.2
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 34.5
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-116
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 12-79
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 4
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 7 (including 2020)
Xavier
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 41.0
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 37.7
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-81
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 14-66
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5
VCU
10-year kenpom average: 56.4
10-year kenpom range: 25-144
10-year NCAA Appearances: 7
Generally, it seems that programs stay mostly what they are. There might be a case for some slight average improvement, but really the consistent difference is that joining the league is a floor-raiser. Considering how much an outlier that 144 is for VCU (their next worse was 73) my guess is they would consistently be a middle of the pack Big East team. Generally in the 20-70 range, competing for at-large berths most years but not really a league title threat very often. Certainly a fine addition, and a better program than some that are here now, but not one that is a must-add by any means.
Yes. The one who constantly gets in arguments around here is clearly not being argumentative.
Or because they always devolve into something like this topic has devolved into.
VCU would be a fine addition. Not great, not a must-add, but not terrible. I looked back at the history, 10 years before joining the Big East and 10 years since. Here are the numbers for our additions:
Butler
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 61.5
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 65.1
10-year kenpom range BEFORE: 12-145
10-year kenpom range AFTER: 20-121
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5 (including 2020)
Creighton
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 58.2
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 34.5
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-116
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 12-79
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 4
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 7 (including 2020)
Xavier
10-year kenpom average BEFORE: 41.0
10-year kenpom average AFTER: 37.7
10-year kenpom finish range BEFORE: 15-81
10-year kenpom finish range AFTER: 14-66
10-year NCAA Appearances BEFORE: 6
10-year NCAA Appearances AFTER: 5
VCU
10-year kenpom average: 56.4
10-year kenpom range: 25-144
10-year NCAA Appearances: 7
Generally, it seems that programs stay mostly what they are. There might be a case for some slight average improvement, but really the consistent difference is that joining the league is a floor-raiser. Considering how much an outlier that 144 is for VCU (their next worse was 73) my guess is they would consistently be a middle of the pack Big East team. Generally in the 20-70 range, competing for at-large berths most years but not really a league title threat very often. Certainly a fine addition, and a better program than some that are here now, but not one that is a must-add by any means.
Projecting 10,142 posts later.
By unconfirmed rumors, Georgetown was blocking VCU from serious consideration in 2012/2013 (likely due to geography). Wonder if that would still be the case.
VCU has some strong metrics. They are a basketball-first athletic department with a sustained successful run of regularly competing for NCAAT appearances; although outside of Shaka, they have not made it to the second weekend. Ever. They have very nice and new(er) facilities, with a capacity of just under 8k (it would be the smallest full-time arena in the Big East). Richmond is outside the top-50 in TV markets, and averages just under 7k per game (it would bring down the average home attendance per game in the BE); thus I'm not sure what it really adds from the fan/viewership column. Each of their past five head coaches (Capel, Grant, Smart, Wade, Rhoades) have made the NCAAT.
Is VCU worth adding for #12? I'd argue no. If they were part of a larger expansion grouping, I could see them as #14 or #16.
Shoot, sometimes when people don't respond to your arguments it is because they are dumb and don't merit a response.
The bottom line is that VCU is clearly a tier below the Big East programs, has no history of prestige or success, doesn't add any dollars or eyeballs, best case scenario would be Butler-lite, and can be added at literally any point between now and the end of time. Those are the reasons Val hasn't made that call for a decade.
And so, back to the original point, if the theory is that VCU is leaking stories about joining the AAC in order to put pressure on the Big East, they would be better served by raising their basketball profile to something akin to Gonzaga in order to really make themselves an attractive add. Otherwise, they're just a serviceable Plan B in case of emergency.
Lol. This is what someone says when they are unable to back up their claims. And the funny part is I merely responded to each of your initial claims specifically.
The point was and still is the insecure snobby dismissiveness. It never was about VCU specifically.
Wow... all that and it wasn't even SLU.
Defending the honor of VCU on a Marquette message board is an odd hill to die on, but you do you.
Marquette entered the Big East from Conference USA.
I don't understand how this relates to what I posted. Marquette left CUSA to come to the Big East because the Big East was/is a better conference. VCU would do the same now because the Big East is a better conference. I alsob think that VCU would be successful in the Big East because of the advantages they would gain from being in the Big East.
😳
I'm self-aware enough to know I'm argumentative.
Just trying to figure out what VCU adds to the conference, except as a Plan B if someone poacehes UConn.
Amazing how little you understood about the conversation.
I don't think you actually have a point other than saying that Marquette fans are bad for thinking Marquette is a better program than VCU. Talk about a COLE perspective.
You certainly haven't made any case for why the Big East should add VCU.
VCU sucksF Commonwealths.
This post is factually incorrect. Again, similar to before, you have a tendency to make things up and you offer zero evidence to support it.
Please explain why it makes sense for the Big East to add VCU. So far all I've understood you to say is that, if you squint enough, VCU kinda looks like Butler or Creighton circa 2013 and why not add them because DePaul and SJU suck anyway.
Go back to your initial post and my initial reply. But the problem is you still won’t understand because you still haven’t to this point.
Other people are trying to help you out with recent replies. They are exercising their right to be insecurely snobby and dismissive. I’m gonna go ahead and be Charlie Dalton and exercise my right not to walk, when he was asked by John Keating why he wasn’t participating.
Can I get some support for Virginia Union? Good enough for Charles Oakley, good enough for me.
So at bottom, you object to Marquette fans thumbing their noses at VCU for expansion but don't actually think it makes sense for the Big East to add VCU? That is a weird perspective but okay.
As for the A10 not being a "big boy" league, the reality is that the A10 was a one-bid conference last year. The Big East has never been and never will be a one-bid conference.
And by comparison Wojo had made just 2 NCAA Tourneys in 7 seasons at MUBB. Do you now see how those two sets of results are different and why one set would be more valued than another? I’m confident that if Shaka made 5 of 6 NCAA Tourneys at MUBB he would still be the coach with or without a Sweet 16 in those years. MUBB kept Wojo 7 seasons, only 2 NCAA tourneys and zero wins.
TV networks will have a major say in any decision, but the Big East doesn't "need" to add anybody.Duke, ND, Gonzaga, for sure. No A-10 teams light my fire.
Personally, the only schools I'd want to add would be Gonzaga and Notre Dame, assuming something like Duke leaving the ACC doesn't happen (and why would it?).
If the likes of VCU or St. Louis come in, it won't affect my enjoyment watching Marquette basketball, but I don't think it would really help the league. Or hurt the league, either.
You should be saying 2/6 given 2020 never happened itd be like saying "the packers never won the Super Bowl before 1967!!!" Well yeah it wasn't possible.
TV networks will have a major say in any decision, but the Big East doesn't "need" to add anybody.
Personally, the only schools I'd want to add would be Gonzaga and Notre Dame, assuming something like Duke leaving the ACC doesn't happen (and why would it?).
If the likes of VCU or St. Louis come in, it won't affect my enjoyment watching Marquette basketball, but I don't think it would really help the league. Or hurt the league, either.
It counts because MUBB was not in position to make the tourney in 2020.
This thread moved 4 pages since I last checked.
Do I need to read it or nah?
Smash or pass?
They would have gotten in had the tournament not been cancelled. Probably a 10 seed.
You can certainly debate the relevance of it, but Marquette was an absolute stone cold lock to make the 2020 NCAA Tournament. It wouldn't have been the seed they wanted, but they were not at any risk of missing out.
I think we keep our powder dry in the Big East for now. Gonzaga would be nice but do they add anything once Mark Few retires? From a TV perspective probably not.
Val knows. I suspect she is waiting for the ACC to implode. When UNC, Clemson, Miami and Florida State become SEC members and UVA and Notre Dame join the BIG, she will have her pick!
Until then, VCU, Dayton and the rest of the A10 can stay where they belong!
If the Big East wanted or needed VCU, Dayton or St.Louis as members, they would already be here. And any one of them or all of them can be added with a phone call at any time.
Wait until the football people get to where they want to get to, and then see what opportunities might present themselves.
If the Big East wanted or needed VCU, Dayton or St.Louis as members, they would already be here. And any one of them or all of them can be added with a phone call at any time.
Wait until the football people get to where they want to get to, and then see what opportunities might present themselves.
If the Big East wanted or needed VCU, Dayton or St.Louis as members, they would already be here. And any one of them or all of them can be added with a phone call at any time.
Wait until the football people get to where they want to get to, and then see what opportunities might present themselves.
It counts because MUBB was not in position to make the tourney in 2020.
Yep. Here is the last Bracket Matrix from 2020. They were on 97 of 97 brackets and slotted as a nine seed.
http://bracketmatrix.com/matrix_2020.html
8-10 league record. I don’t know.
Either way that one year doesn’t really change the point of why it was mentioned in the discussion.
Sultan responded with what I was going to say
It changes the "facts" that you have been misrepresenting as the truth.
It doesn’t change the fact that 5 of 6 NCAA Tourneys was good enough for Shaka to keep his job at VCU. It doesn’t change the fact that those results are better than Wojo’s at MUBB in one additional season. That part of the discussion that I was having with someone else doesn’t change in any way with or without the 2020 Big East Conference Tourney which also wasn’t played. or the NCAA Tourney.
The person I was speaking with said Shaka would have been fired at MUBB in 5 seasons without a Sweet 16.. He talked about the much higher standard at MUBB. Yet Wojo very recently coached 7 seasons, won zero NCAA games and only made it twice. Whether that is 6 or 7 seasons doesn’t matter and doesn’t change that part of the discussion. Seems simple enough. You can be pedantic all you want about it.
What happened to Wojo again? I forget. Did he get canned?
Did the mods get rid of the ignore button? If so that is a loss.
It's just no longer a button. Go to this link, and type inshoothoopsthe username into the member box, and click add.
It's just no longer a button. Go to this link, and type inshoothoopsthe username into the member box, and click add.
WSU and OSU given control of remnant Pac-12 Board and thus gain access to remaining Assets. Delighted to see them prevail. Can proceed to some kind of merger with Mountain West .Very good news. Fair and just outcome.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38899331/judge-ruling-grants-oregon-state-washington-state-full-control-pac-12-board
Dont like the judges interpretationHusky fan no doubt.
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/11/29/state-supreme-court-puts-ruling-that-gave-oregon-state-washington-state-control-of-pac-12-on-hold/?outputType=amp
Washington State and Oregon State have settlement with departing Pac-12 members , they are now The Pac-2. My guess is they eventually merge in The Mountain West and become Pac-14 for football.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/washington-state-oregon-state-reach-agreement-with-departing-pac-12-schools-to-end-litigation/amp/
Washington State and Oregon State have settlement with departing Pac-12 members , they are now The Pac-2. My guess is they eventually merge in The Mountain West and become Pac-14 for football.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/washington-state-oregon-state-reach-agreement-with-departing-pac-12-schools-to-end-litigation/amp/
Also participating in the WCC for the next two seasons in all non-football sports.
Are they independent for basketball or part of WCC auto bid if they win the all their games against WCC teams.
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39242303/florida-ag-requests-documents-acc-related-fsu-lawsuit
I’m trying to figure out what the legal basis for the Florida attorney general to be involved is.
If the conference structure survives, the Big East picks-up a few ACC cast-offs such as Syracuse, Boston College, and maybe Duke or Pitt or Wake Forest or Georgia Tech, and they all get to play UCONN in football.
Wow, you think so?
the guy posts the most vanilla soft serves here and ya gotta piss on this fire hydrant too? shocker!
yes...reeeko's been here too. pick your target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it...hmmmm
That's one possibility.
On the other hand, those same six ACC teams you mention would probably make a play to add Villanova, St. Johns, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall and Providence. It would make a very attractive 12-team reformulated version of the legacy Big East (with the bonus of adding Duke, Wake and Georgia Tech). And the departing teams would probably purchase the Big East name from the Midwest Five, just as the C7 did after leaving.
That leaves MU, Creighton, Xavier, Butler and DePaul to fill out the conference with Loyola, St. Louis, Dayton, Gonzaga and St. Thomas. And still dreaming about Gonzaga.
the guy posts the most vanilla soft serves here and ya gotta piss on this fire hydrant too? shocker!
yes...reeeko's been here too. pick your target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it...hmmmm
With regard to MU making the 2020 tournament, I think we could all agree that there was no way we were going to win a game in it. So Wojo would’ve gone to three tournaments in seven years with zero wins. End of story.
We would we agree to that?
Anyway it was four years and one coach ago. Who gives a rip?
Exactly. I wouldn't agree to it when we had Markus Howard, who still had the ability to go off against anyone for 40 on a given night and Marquette was 7-0 when he did so. We were going to be playing someone in a 7/10 or 8/9 game, so there's every chance we could've gone to the second round.
But I'm far more interested in where this team will end up than a tournament that never happened.
Strong disagree but you were a slurper like TAMU
That's one possibility.
On the other hand, those same six ACC teams you mention would probably make a play to add Villanova, St. Johns, Georgetown, UConn, Seton Hall and Providence. It would make a very attractive 12-team reformulated version of the legacy Big East (with the bonus of adding Duke, Wake and Georgia Tech). And the departing teams would probably purchase the Big East name from the Midwest Five, just as the C7 did after leaving.
That leaves MU, Creighton, Xavier, Butler and DePaul to fill out the conference with Loyola, St. Louis, Dayton, Gonzaga and St. Thomas. And still dreaming about Gonzaga.
Everyone thinks the Wojo thing to do would've been to lose in the first round, but the real Wojo thing would've been to win in the first round, upset a 1-seed in the second (Dayton was ripe for the picking), then give up a lead and collapse against a 13-seed in the Sweet 16, but guarantee a big contract extension as his bell cow Howard goes out the door.
We're probably lucky 2020 didn't happen.
UMass dropping out of the A10 to join the MAC for all sports. They decided they needed a football conference with the new college football playoff, and apparently weren't concerned enough with what it would do to their basketball program.
Wonder what conversations may be happening in Storrs.
Everyone thinks the Wojo thing to do would've been to lose in the first round, but the real Wojo thing would've been to win in the first round, upset a 1-seed in the second (Dayton was ripe for the picking), then give up a lead and collapse against a 13-seed in the Sweet 16, but guarantee a big contract extension as his bell cow Howard goes out the door.
We're probably lucky 2020 didn't happen.
The Hurley sniffing around other jobs could be a prelude to UConn and the Big XII. I think he’s pretty clear in his thinking for basketball purposes, being in the Big East matters for UConn. Or it could be nothing
With this move, there are two remaining football independents - Notre Dame and UConn.
UMass dropping out of the A10 to join the MAC for all sports. They decided they needed a football conference with the new college football playoff, and apparently weren't concerned enough with what it would do to their basketball program.
Wonder what conversations may be happening in Storrs.
I'm missing your angle as to what conversations might be taking place in Storrs ( other than UCONN's 24/7/365 delusion that their football team belongs in the Big 12).
Elucidate please.
UMass dropping out of the A10 to join the MAC for all sports. They decided they needed a football conference with the new college football playoff, and apparently weren't concerned enough with what it would do to their basketball program.
Wonder what conversations may be happening in Storrs.
Sure. There is likely no room for non-ND college football independents in this new College Football Playoff, and my guess is that a lot of the bowls that would be a good consolation prize are going to end up drying up.
UMass made the decision that sticking with football, and moving to a lesser basketball conference, was the smart decision in this scenario.
Is UConn thinking similarly? Would they make a stronger pitch to join the B12? Or would they reapproach the AAC (or CUSA) with a football affiliate membership?
One thing I don't have window to is UConn's football media deal.
Sure. There is likely no room for non-ND college football independents in this new College Football Playoff, and my guess is that a lot of the bowls that would be a good consolation prize are going to end up drying up.
UMass made the decision that sticking with football, and moving to a lesser basketball conference, was the smart decision in this scenario.
Is UConn thinking similarly? Would they make a stronger pitch to join the B12? Or would they reapproach the AAC (or CUSA) with a football affiliate membership?
One thing I don't have window to is UConn's football media deal.
Sultan,
UConn has a TV football deal with CBS Sports Network that pays $500,000 per year. They televise (4) home games. It just ended after the current season and from what I read they are still negotiating with CBS Sports again.
Other than winning a national championship in hockey recently I don't think UMass has had good luck with any of it's sports teams. Which is the exact opposite of UConn.
Sultan,
UConn has a TV football deal with CBS Sports Network that pays $500,000 per year. They televise (4) home games. It just ended after the current season and from what I read they are still negotiating with CBS Sports again.
Other than winning a national championship in hockey recently I don't think UMass has had good luck with any of it's sports teams. Which is the exact opposite of UConn.
Clemson reportedly suing to get out of the ACC.
ACC is cooked. FSU and Clemson desperate to leave.
ACC is cooked. FSU and Clemson desperate to leave.
Yup. I’d say o/u on implosion is 1.5 years. Just a matter of who the Big Ten takes. I’d say UNC and Virginia are locks and at least 1 of the Florida schools.
SEC has some issues with current members probably not thrilled with adding intrastate rivals but probably don’t have a choice
Don't the states of North Carolina and Virginia have requirements to keep their respective flagship and state schools together? e.g., if UVA goes to the Big10, wouldn't VaTech have to go too?
Don't the states of North Carolina and Virginia have requirements to keep their respective flagship and state schools together? e.g., if UVA goes to the Big10, wouldn't VaTech have to go too?
Allegedly was the case in Oklahoma, too. Virginia and VaTech weren’t in the same conferences for years.
At this point with conference realignment, I’m putting all these considerations out to pasture.