More conference realignment talk

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

But that's irrelevant.  Marquette is already in the Big East.  SLU isn't.  That is the heart of the matter.

If you're argument is that Marquette has been terrible for the last 7 years... well no kidding, we all know that.  But what does that have to do with anything?  This isn't a discussion of who is better at basketball SLU or MU.  This is about SLU having no business being in the BEAST. 

Welcome to the chat.  Hope you like arguing with a brick wall.

[Scoop Snoop]

Yup.  And if we're really breaking things down, would Creighton be here if UConn wasn't still chasing football dreams when the basketball-only BEast came together? We needed to get to 10, and Creighton was the best game in town, but they're also already the western-most member.  I think if UConn had been an original member, these threads would be talking about adding Creighton and Gonzaga, and the SLU conversation would be a distant, "yeah maybe if we eventually go to 14" conversation.

This is why SLU and Dayton are not viable additions. Then was then and now is now. And yes, SLU does need to go to 2nd weekend NCAA games to even sniff a possible invite to the BE some day in the future. It does not matter one bit where the current teams were when the NBE was formed. The here and now of it is the BE should be very careful and picky about extending invites because we can be.

Imagine if UCONN had given up on FB back then. The BE could have taken both UCONN AND Creighton to get to 10 and left De Paul to fend for itself.

Lastly, in regard to TAMU's comment about the NCAA rules about a school splitting bball and the non revenue sports- yeah, I know its a problem but I'm optimistic that they would give in. Its light years apart from that rule and NIL fiasco but I think the humiliation of a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling, the scathing comments by at least one of the judges and the broad media coverage of the NCAA getting their nose rubbed in dog sh!t will make them adverse to defending the BS rule that does not apply to FB.

[Uncle Rico]

This is why SLU and Dayton are not viable additions. Then was then and now is now. And yes, SLU does need to go to 2nd weekend NCAA games to even sniff a possible invite to the BE some day in the future. It does not matter one bit where the current teams were when the NBE was formed. The here and now of it is the BE should be very careful and picky about extending invites because we can be.

Imagine if UCONN had given up on FB back then. The BE could have taken both UCONN AND Creighton to get to 10 and left De Paul to fend for itself.

Lastly, in regard to TAMU's comment about the NCAA rules about a school splitting bball and the non revenue sports- yeah, I know its a problem but I'm optimistic that they would give in. Its light years apart from that rule and NIL fiasco but I think the humiliation of a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling, the scathing comments by at least one of the judges and the broad media coverage of the NCAA getting their nose rubbed in dog sh!t will make them adverse to defending the BS rule that does not apply to FB.

NCAA rules are no longer of concern to leagues

[MDMU04]

Nobody is arguing SLU or Dayton over Gonzaga. Gonzaga is obviously the top choice of basketball programs to add.

But the point your missing is that the statement of "outside of alum and a few locals, who gives a ** about SLU basketball" can be applied to every team in the conference, no? Villanova is *maybe* an exception given their success, but no other team in the Big East has a national following and no addition to the conference will bring that, besides Gonzaga, who we mentioned is the clear top choice. But Dayton, SLU, even VCU or WS add to the overall depth of the conference and would lead to greater number of competitive games - which as fans seems like a win for all.

Expanding the conference with teams that don't raise the profile of the conference does not improve the conference.  It adds more inventory to games that no one will care about, ie dilution of the product.  I'm not watching SLU vs. Providence or Dayton vs Butler.  I don't care if the games are competitive.

Adding Gonzaga objectively improves the conference.  Adding SLU or Dayton or VCU or whoever adds more games.  That's the difference.

If expansion does not include adding Gonzaga, I would rather the Big East do nothing.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is why SLU and Dayton are not viable additions. Then was then and now is now. And yes, SLU does need to go to 2nd weekend NCAA games to even sniff a possible invite to the BE some day in the future. It does not matter one bit where the current teams were when the NBE was formed. The here and now of it is the BE should be very careful and picky about extending invites because we can be.

Imagine if UCONN had given up on FB back then. The BE could have taken both UCONN AND Creighton to get to 10 and left De Paul to fend for itself.

Lastly, in regard to TAMU's comment about the NCAA rules about a school splitting bball and the non revenue sports- yeah, I know its a problem but I'm optimistic that they would give in. Its light years apart from that rule and NIL fiasco but I think the humiliation of a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling, the scathing comments by at least one of the judges and the broad media coverage of the NCAA getting their nose rubbed in dog sh!t will make them adverse to defending the BS rule that does not apply to FB.

The idea that all NCAA bylaws are irrelevant because the SC ruled a certain way on some of their rules, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Scoop Snoop]

The idea that all NCAA bylaws are irrelevant because the SC ruled a certain way on some of their rules, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I'm just suggesting that the humiliation of that might make them reluctant to get into an even much smaller pissing contest. That's all.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

SLU doesn’t need to go on NCAA 2nd weekend tourney runs to get invited to the Big East. Other teams didn’t.

Actually they did. For all intents and purposes, the Big East in its current form is only 8 years old and had 10 founding members. You can argue that SLU should have been one of the founding members but they weren't and that's in the past. Since then, the Big East has only invited one new member and they brought with them 4 championships, 5 final fours, 11 elite eights, 18 Sweet 16s, 33 NCAAT appearances, 10 conference tournament championships, and 31 regular season conference championships. That's the level the Big East is looking to add to at this point. Their next addition is probably not quite that impressive, but that's the level or program the Big East is interested in adding.

It depends on the money.

So that means you do agree that the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered, so my use of the word promotion was fair.

I don't know if that mean you do or don't agree on SLU being valuable enough to be added to the Big East. I don't know either, I guess it depends on what Fox thinks. My guess is the money probably says SLU isn't valuable enough.

[shoothoops]

Actually they did. For all intents and purposes, the Big East in its current form is only 8 years old and had 10 founding members. You can argue that SLU should have been one of the founding members but they weren't and that's in the past. Since then, the Big East has only invited one new member and they brought with them 4 championships, 5 final fours, 11 elite eights, 18 Sweet 16s, 33 NCAAT appearances, 10 conference tournament championships, and 31 regular season conference championships. That's the level the Big East is looking to add to at this point. Their next addition is probably not quite that impressive, but that's the level or program the Big East is interested in adding.

So that means you do agree that the Big East conference is unquestionably better than the Atlantic 10 conference in every meaningful metric and every A10 school would accept a Big East invitation if offered, so my use of the word promotion was fair.

I don't know if that mean you do or don't agree on SLU being valuable enough to be added to the Big East. I don't know either, I guess it depends on what Fox thinks. My guess is the money probably says SLU isn't valuable enough.

“The past is the past.” Much of this entire board lives in the past.

League success varies year to year, team to team.

I believe SLU would accept a Big East invite, yes. But I also believe they are content being in the A-10, yes. They have a few bottom teams that don’t make an effort in basketball that affect their overall numbers some years.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

“The past is the past.” Much of this entire board lives in the past.

Says the guy who brought up the Charlie Spoonhauer era when proving SLU has excellent fan support.

[MU82]

SLU has just as many NBA Finals appearances as the Clippers.

Billikens to the NBA!

[Hards Alumni]

It’s not about if SLU is better than Marquette in basketball. It’s partly about (for some because they have said so) if SLU would be successful in it. Newer Big East teams have been more successful in it than they were prior to it.

But that's irrelevant.  Marquette is already in the Big East.  SLU isn't.  That is the heart of the matter.

[Its DJOver]

Man, I cannot wait for the season to start so we can go back to arguing about on-court issues again. All this off-season stuff has just been one circular argument after another. We need new material.

[Galway Eagle]

Man, I cannot wait for the season to start so we can go back to arguing about on-court issues again. All this off-season stuff has just been one circular argument after another. We need new material.

You're referring to SLU's season or Gonzaga's season?

[Litehouse]

I haven't seen the issue of divisions mentioned, and I'm not going to comb through the thread because my mind is numb from these repeated useless SLU talking points.  But if the BE picks up SLU/Dayton, MU might get stuck in the "BE West" division, with more games against Creighton, Butler, Xavier, DePaul, SLU/Dayton, and fewer games against Villanova, UConn, SJU, SH, G-town, and Providence.

[Uncle Rico]

I haven't seen the issue of divisions mentioned, and I'm not going to comb through the thread because my mind is numb from these repeated useless SLU talking points.  But if the BE picks up SLU/Dayton, MU might get stuck in the "BE West" division, with more games against Creighton, Butler, Xavier, DePaul, SLU/Dayton, and fewer games against Villanova, UConn, SJU, SH, G-town, and Providence.

The only way we see divisions is if the BE goes big, to say 16 teams.

[The Equalizer]

I still don't get the attraction of Gonzaga.  Where are the benefits?  People are talking about the Big East as if we're no better than the WCC.

Seriously, what would the Big East gain?

1. Respect?  Cleary some must think the Big East lacks respect today.  We need Gonzaga so the national press respects the Big East.

2. The Big East teams would gain access to the deep Spokane talent pool.  Because as it turns out, there are no great players that come out of NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago, Baltimore, etc.  Eastern Washington is where it's at, and right now our teams have no exposure.

3. When's the last time a Big East team earned at at-large bid?  Without more powerful teams in our midst, our league can only count on one team making the tourney--maybe two tops if our regular season champ is upset in the tournament.  Adding Gonzaga would give us a fighting chance at getting at least two bids every year.

4. Our TV contract stinks--clearly, there's no market for watching any Big East team.  Nobody wants to watch Big East games or the Big East tournament as currently constituted. Without Gonzaga, our contract will expire and we'll never be on TV again.

5. The current makeup leaves people questioning whether our league champion is really any good, after all, how hard is it to run off 16 or 18 conference wins in the Big East?  It's not like we're a powerhouse like the WCC.

6. The current makeup leaves our league champ completely unprepared for the NCAA tournament, meaning a lot of early exits when our champ is finally tested.

7. Big East teams spend most of November and December having to play the road, trying to beef up their weak schedules.  If only we had a good team in the conference--someone like Gonzaga--so that we'd have some strong games in conference play as well.

8. We don't currently generate enough interest for our conference tournament.  Those well-traveling Gonzaga fans will finally bring some noise to MSG.


Let's face it--too many people look at Gonzaga like a shiny object and uncritically think "oooh me want!" 

The reality is that Gonzaga joining the Big East would be hugely beneficially for one team and only one team . . . Gonzaga. 

They get significantly increased visibility in deeply talented recruiting markets.  They get to move half their conference games into prime time for most of the country.  They add an annual trip to MSG for the conference tournament.  They get to eliminate all the chatter about how they only managed 21 straight tournaments because they can wipe the slate in a weak conference. 

What does the rest of the Big East get?  Slightly more TV money?  An annual road trip to Spokane? 

And lost in all the discussion is the fact that conference play is a zero-sum game.  If we invite Gonzaga, and they continue to win, it means the rest of the league has to absorb those losses.  If Gonzaga joins and earns an NCAA bid, the Big East team that was formerly on the bubble is now out, having two more losses to overcome. 

My guess is Val wants this to happen not necessarily because it's good for the Big East, but because it's good for Val.  She'll be showered with attention for making the deal happen, regardless of whether it's good for any of the current members. 
 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What does the rest of the Big East get?  Slightly more TV money?   

FIFY. Honestly, this all that matters to the decision makers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

“The past is the past.” Much of this entire board lives in the past.

What does much of this entire board living in the past have to do with whether or not SLU should be added to the Big East? If you want to start a discussion on whether or not SLU should have been invited back in 2013 instead of one of the other members, I don't think anyone would object. But that has no bearing on whether or not they should be added now or in the future.

I believe SLU would accept a Big East invite, yes. But I also believe they are content being in the A-10, yes. They have a few bottom teams that don’t make an effort in basketball that affect their overall numbers some years.

So again, no issue with referring to SLU moving from the A10 to the Big East as a promotion.

[Spotcheck Billy]

And that “consistency” was good enough to get Wojo fired. MUBB couldn’t crack the top 30 since Buzz did it in 2012-2013.

Not accurate, like it or not Wojo did hit the top 25 rankings
https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/marquette-ranked-then-now
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2019/01/28/marquette-boasts-two-top-10-basketball-teams/2698925002/

[MU82]

We'll agree to disagree, Equalizer.

Gonzaga is one of the half-dozen best "national brands" in basketball today, not to mention a highly successful program over multiple decades now.

Saying the Big East would like to add a program like that is not the same as saying the Big East "needs" Gonzaga, which seems to be what your long list of talking points is addressing. We don't.

I would hope the Big East would rather add a great program that will make everybody else up their game instead of a mediocre program that others would feel, "No sweat, we're better than them." Put me in the camp of those who would much rather stay at 11 than add a Dayton or SLU.

Personally, my list for expansion is:

1. Notre Dame (unlikely to happen)

2. Kansas (very unlikely to happen)

3. Gonzaga (seems possible)

4. There is no 4. Just stay at 11 teams.

[Nukem2]

We'll agree to disagree, Equalizer.

Gonzaga is one of the half-dozen best "national brands" in basketball today, not to mention a highly successful program over multiple decades now.

Saying the Big East would like to add a program like that is not the same as saying the Big East "needs" Gonzaga, which seems to be what your long list of talking points is addressing. We don't.

I would hope the Big East would rather add a great program that will make everybody else up their game instead of a mediocre program that others would feel, "No sweat, we're better than them." Put me in the camp of those who would much rather stay at 11 than add a Dayton or SLU.

Personally, my list for expansion is:

1. Notre Dame (unlikely to happen)

2. Kansas (very unlikely to happen)

3. Gonzaga (seems possible)

4. There is no 4. Just stay at 11 teams.

I would agree though I would say ND is ‘very’ unlikely as well.  As to Dayton and SLU, what if Fox and the membership should come to the conclusion that the BE should expand for that next contract?  From a BB only perspective, Dayton would be far more attractive to me than SLU.  But, I would rather stay at 11 unless it were one of the first 3 above.

[shoothoops]

Not accurate, like it or not Wojo did hit the top 25 rankings
https://onmilwaukee.com/articles/marquette-ranked-then-now
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2019/01/28/marquette-boasts-two-top-10-basketball-teams/2698925002/

The other poster was using a specific measuring metric, (Torvic) and, he was using it as end of season number, year by year.

[wadesworld]

I've been swayed.  Either add SLU or fold the Big East.

[MDMU04]

We'll agree to disagree, Equalizer.

Gonzaga is one of the half-dozen best "national brands" in basketball today, not to mention a highly successful program over multiple decades now.

Saying the Big East would like to add a program like that is not the same as saying the Big East "needs" Gonzaga, which seems to be what your long list of talking points is addressing. We don't.

Right now you're absolutely right, we don't "need" to add Gonzaga.

I think some longer term strategic issues may be at play here, to be honest.  The NCAA Tournament contract currently runs through 2032.  I am not sure what the postseason tournament environment is going to look like a decade from now, but the odds of a P5/NCAA bifrucation in the 2033 season are probably non-zero at this point.

The Big East needs to continue to improve by adding championship caliber programs to maintain their long term relevance.  Because I have a feeling that a day of reckoning is approaching sooner than later, and this conference is going to need as many perennially relevant and contending teams as possible to force their way into the conversation.

Gonzaga is a unicorn, they're pretty much a perfect fit in this regard.  This potential addition represents an enormous strategic opportunity to enhance the profile of the conference in both the short and long term.  The risk of being on the wrong side of a split is enormous to the basketball program and the University as a whole.  I'd rather Val be proactive and mitigate that risk now while we have a unique opportunity to do so than not.

[cheebs09]

FIFY. Honestly, this all that matters to the decision makers.

A lot of posts for what boils down to this. The Big East would only expand if it made financial sense to do so.

We can use all kinds of other reasons to discuss what that means for the competitiveness of the league, but the decision makers aren’t going to care. The reason people talk about Gonzaga is mainly due to the fact that they might be a brand a TV Network would view as worth adding money to the deal or future offers.

I have to imagine there’s a financial benefit, or at least it’s even, for each school when UCONN joined.