More conference realignment talk

[shoothoops]

that't nice, they showed up for a top 5 team. How is the student section looking against Fordham, Duquense, Richmond, basically anyone other than Dayton? Why not pics of the 5200 fans who showed up for Duquense or 5100 for St. Joe's?

Nah. Fan interest has never been their issue.

Spoon Ball? Romar?

24, 7, 7, 18, 6, 12, 20, 23rd Nationally in consecutive seasons.

What changed after that? Spoon retired and Romar left for Washington. They hired Soderberg. Then Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, DePaul, etc left for the Big East. Then they switched to a smaller venue.

Fan support there is good, whether it’s with Ford or Majerus or some of the others above. Have a competitive team, play competitive games.

St. Joe’s? They were 6-26 with a KenPom of 260.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Spoon Ball?  Seriously?

Spoon left SLU in 1999 and died in 2012.  *That's* what you are basing your fan interest on?

In 2019, a 20-win season that would end with a NCAA tournament appearance, they would have finished 10th in the BE in attendance.  Ahead of only DePaul.

[shoothoops]

Spoon Ball?  Seriously?

Spoon left SLU in 1999 and died in 2012.  *That's* what you are basing your fan interest on?

In 2019, a 20-win season that would end with a NCAA tournament appearance, they would have finished 10th in the BE in attendance.  Ahead of only DePaul.

Nope. I named four different coaches and eras. And, I’ve explained their situation. Fan interest isn’t an issue for them. Troll all you want.



 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Nope. I named four different coaches and eras. And, I’ve explained their situation. Fan interest isn’t an issue for them. Troll all you want.

I'm not trolling.  I stated a statistic that shows attendance at their games would be at the bottom of the Big East.  Your continued exaggeration and use of historically insignificant statistics is laughable and doesn't really help your argument.

[shoothoops]

I'm not trolling.  I stated a statistic that shows attendance at their games would be at the bottom of the Big East.  Your continued exaggeration and use of historically insignificant statistics is laughable and doesn't really help your argument.

You knowingly are not comparing apples to apples. That’s trolling. Providing relevant, factual, information by definition isn’t exaggeration.

[JWags85]

I enjoy how any SLU disagreement is now “trolling”.  Constant claims of trolling, gaslighting, projecting, and “triggered” tribal hatred whenever SLU or it’s namesake city are not met with full throated agreement or praise, much less besmirched in any way, are getting to be a bit boy who cried wolf.

Chaifetz Arena is a really nice venue and yes it’s smaller so they can’t be bringing in 12-15K a game, but they haven’t averaged more than 7000 fans in more than 5 years.  They aren’t packing the house with any regularity. Maybe they get 8000+ like in Crews’ best year but the likelihood of them going nearly unbeaten at home, like back then, in the BEast is unlikely.  You can make fun of St Joes RPI, but it’s not like casual fans would suddenly come out in droves for a mid-bottom BEast SLU team playing against DePaul, Providence, or SHU

[shoothoops]

I enjoy how any SLU disagreement is now “trolling”.  Constant claims of trolling, gaslighting, projecting, and “triggered” tribal hatred whenever SLU or it’s namesake city are not met with full throated agreement or praise, much less besmirched in any way, are getting to be a bit boy who cried wolf.

Chaifetz Arena is a really nice venue and yes it’s smaller so they can’t be bringing in 12-15K a game, but they haven’t averaged more than 7000 fans in more than 5 years.  They aren’t packing the house with any regularity. Maybe they get 8000+ like in Crews’ best year but the likelihood of them going nearly unbeaten at home, like back then, in the BEast is unlikely.  You can make fun of St Joes RPI, but it’s not like casual fans would suddenly come out in droves for a mid-bottom BEast SLU team playing against DePaul, Providence, or SHU

My post was in reference to this poster saying he or she was doing exactly that his previous post. His words not mine. You may have missed that post.

You are assuming SLU would be a mid bottom Big East Team once they were in the Big East? They wouldn’t have the same budget, revenue, etc…and we’ve already covered many of these things. Without them they already covered the middle part.

[🏀]

Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?

Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU hasn't cracked that list since 2001.

Because Dayton sucks and so do the people that live there. What else you going to do?

[The Lens]

Markus Howard and Joey Hauser will go camping together at Devils Lake before SLU & Dayton are added to this Big East. 

The only way those schools are added is if there’s an exodus of current teams.   

It’s Gonzaga or no one. 

[JWags85]

You are assuming SLU would be a mid bottom Big East Team once they were in the Big East? They wouldn’t have the same budget, revenue, etc…and we’ve already covered many of these things. Without them they already covered the middle part.

Yes, I am assuming that the program that hasn’t finished above 4th in the A10 for the last 5 years, and has more seasons finishing 10th or below than they do finishing top 3 in a mid major conference since joining the A10, won’t storm into the BEast and suddenly jostle at the top.

You repeatedly cite budgets as if there aren’t schools that spend tons on basketball yet don’t dominate.  TCU, Northwestern, and Pitt are all among the top 25 budgets in NCBB but the on court results don’t bear it out.  Xavier is 10x the program SLU is and has been for 20 years.  It’s clearly more than money.  You clearly have a fondness for the program and view their potential with blue tinted glasses, and that’s fine. But there is just as much evidence for skepticism about SLU being a strong BEast program, much less a contender, and to think so is not trolling or hating or whatever you want to say. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Markus Howard and Joey Hauser will go camping together at Devils Lake before SLU & Dayton are added to this Big East. 

The only way those schools are added is if there’s an exodus of current teams.   

It’s Gonzaga or no one.

Not so sure. Notre Dame’s football deal ends in 2025. Fox Sports didn’t exist when they signed with NBC. MU and ND have a two year trial before then coincidently and they may have buyer’s remorse for the rest of their sports. Their football footprint has not been helped in the ACC.

I have heard the Domers have missed us in their Big East sports.

[JakeBarnes]

Not so sure. Notre Dame’s football deal ends in 2025. Fox Sports didn’t exist when they signed with NBC. MU and ND have a two year trial before then coincidently and they may have buyer’s remorse for the rest of their sports. Their football footprint has not been helped them in the ACC.

I have heard the Domers have missed us in their Big East sports.

Fine. Then ND and Zags or no one 

[Viper]

Fine. Then ND and Zags or no one 

if given the option, take ND. Let’s say Few retires in a couple of seasons and Gonzaga craters. Then what? ND has staying power, a brand. Even if they suck, it’s still ND...not to mention our oldest rival.

[shoothoops]

Yes, I am assuming that the program that hasn’t finished above 4th in the A10 for the last 5 years, and has more seasons finishing 10th or below than they do finishing top 3 in a mid major conference since joining the A10, won’t storm into the BEast and suddenly jostle at the top.

You repeatedly cite budgets as if there aren’t schools that spend tons on basketball yet don’t dominate.  TCU, Northwestern, and Pitt are all among the top 25 budgets in NCBB but the on court results don’t bear it out.  Xavier is 10x the program SLU is and has been for 20 years.  It’s clearly more than money.  You clearly have a fondness for the program and view their potential with blue tinted glasses, and that’s fine. But there is just as much evidence for skepticism about SLU being a strong BEast program, much less a contender, and to think so is not trolling or hating or whatever you want to say.

Marquette is a school that spends more than most on Men’s basketball. And they have the same number of NCAA Tourney appearances as SLU this past decade. Xavier has been more successful than Marquette as well, and, most of the Big East Conference. Butler, Providence, Creighton have also been more successful than Marquette this past decade. Some of the newer Big East Schools have had more success in the Big East than prior to joining. Budgets and leagues matter with regard to being competitive, among several other things. No one said the schools that spend the most dominate. But, facilities, budgets, leagues, BOT, admin, (President, AD) boosters, all matter. (Marquette knows this well) And several of those things have changed and are changing in this example program from its past.

This is the conference realignment thread. In it I have discussed the topic. Regarding the particular school referenced, which others mentioned before me, I explained, in detail, clearly, why their positives and challenges, and why they could be successful in the Big East. I explained what’s changed, when,  what’s different, when and why, and what’s the same or similar, and what things look like moving forward in the future.

You entered the conversation in a sub topic about their fan interest. Fan interest isn't one of the challenges they would would have in the Big East.

When I post about other topics, places, things, sports, people, in other threads, c-r-i-c-k-e-t-s. But there is that one place that keeps you coming back, in the same way, in different threads.

[shoothoops]

Not so sure. Notre Dame’s football deal ends in 2025. Fox Sports didn’t exist when they signed with NBC. MU and ND have a two year trial before then coincidently and they may have buyer’s remorse for the rest of their sports. Their football footprint has not been helped in the ACC.

I have heard the Domers have missed us in their Big East sports.

Not sure wha you are hearing and where, but Notre Dame likes being in the ACC for its Olympic sports, as it is the best conference for that. It’s one of 3 important things for them. The other two are access to the playoff and the other is a tv partner.

[JWags85]

When I post about other topics, places, things, sports, people, in other threads, c-r-i-c-k-e-t-s. But there is that one place that keeps you coming back, in the same way, in different threads.

Cause 90% of your other posts are you talking to yourself.  Endless tennis posts to nobody.  Random posts about stuff you’re interested in that isn’t engaging to others. I and many others don’t post cause predominantly we DGAF because you view Scoop as your own Wordpress blog

But when you swoop in with impassioned and biased posts about STL in sports threads? That’s worth engagement. Cause you’ve never been wrong about anything in your entire life and deal only in neutral facts and logic and you can’t bring yourself to comprehend how anyone disagrees with you without tossing out terms like troll or projection or other condescending BS. 

Yet you’re still in denial about your STL love affair.  Show me your countless other paragraphs breathlessly defending things that aren’t STL related?  Maybe the occasional diatribe about Vandy athletics

But I get it. You’re SOOOO worldly and versed and completely neutral about EVERYTHING but just a poor misunderstood victim cause everyone picks on you and STL.  Shockingly, me and countless others, who you are so firmly convinced are constantly following you and out to get you, posted on myriad topics and thrived while you spent time away from the board.

I’ll hang up and look forward to you throwing forth a bunch of labels and and explanations of what I’m actually thinking and feeling, maybe accompanied by screenshots and links of posts from 6 months to 6 years ago.  Totally normal!

But hey, it’s almost time to add Porter Moser Oklahoma updates to the shoothoops STL/Vandy/Tennis RSS feed 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You knowingly are not comparing apples to apples. That’s trolling. Providing relevant, factual, information by definition isn’t exaggeration.

You clearly don't understand what trolling is, because I am not doing that.  What you are doing is using statistics from a bygone era to show "fan support," but aren't using relevant, more recent statistics.  If anyone is trolling it is you comparing SLU to Marquette, which is hilarious because Marquette's history, success and fan support exceed SLU's significantly. 

I like SLU.  It's a nice program with a lot of potential.  When it accomplished what similar programs have accomplished, maybe it will get a BE invite like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  Until then it can keep plugging away in the A10.

[MUDPT]

Not sure wha you are hearing and where, but Notre Dame likes being in the ACC for its Olympic sports, as it is the best conference for that. It’s one of 3 important things for them. The other two are access to the playoff and the other is a tv partner.

Isn’t the P12 best for Olympic sports? Also, I know they have ACC FB requirements (also last year was messed up for many reasons), but isn’t ND’s playoff access independent of the ACC? If Clemson gets in, that doesn’t bar ND.

[shoothoops]

Isn’t the P12 best for Olympic sports? Also, I know they have ACC FB requirements (also last year was messed up for many reasons), but isn’t ND’s playoff access independent of the ACC? If Clemson gets in, that doesn’t bar ND.

The ACC carries the most Olympic Sports.

Those things I mentioned, football playoff, olympic sports, tv partner are separate from each other. Those are things tbey care about. They lhave liked being independent.

[Scoop Snoop]

Markus Howard and Joey Hauser will go camping together at Devils Lake before SLU & Dayton are added to this Big East. 

The only way those schools are added is if there’s an exodus of current teams.   

It’s Gonzaga or no one.

You really seem focused on Gonzaga, Lens.

Your thoughts on timing of the announcement (since you believe it is inevitable) ?

I'm not fully convinced it will happen but if so, questions remain about their non revenue sports teams and, of course, travel. My guess is that if they join the BE they may be allowed a certain amount of preferential treatment by the BE for scheduling conference games so that they can play two road games in three days. Just a wild idea but could they cut a deal with the WCC conference with $ involved to entice them to allow Gonzaga to leave their non revenue sports in the WCC?

[shoothoops]

You clearly don't understand what trolling is, because I am not doing that.  What you are doing is using statistics from a bygone era to show "fan support," but aren't using relevant, more recent statistics.  If anyone is trolling it is you comparing SLU to Marquette, which is hilarious because Marquette's history, success and fan support exceed SLU's significantly. 

I like SLU.  It's a nice program with a lot of potential.  When it accomplished what similar programs have accomplished, maybe it will get a BE invite like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  Until then it can keep plugging away in the A10.

You voluntarily said you were mocking etc…in your previous post. Do we need to repost it? People get out of posting what they put into it.

I use Marquette as an example because many of the Big East Schools are closer to Marquette than Gonzaga or Villanova.

Marquette has made 5 NCAA Tourney 2nd weekends in 40 plus years. I wish it were a national championship annually, but it is what it is.

DePaul has made the NCAA Tourney twice in the 21st century, and you have to go back over 30 years since they made it more regularly.

Georgetown has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend 3 times in the past 25 years.

St. John’s has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend twice in 35 years.

Seton Hall has made the NCAA Tourney 2nd weekend once in 30 years.

I could tell you stories about how Majerus used to battle the past 25 year SLU President for charter flights etc..and other things. Rick didn’t always win those battles. And if he couldn’t win some of them others certainly didn’t.

Those days are over for SLU. They have big money donors. Some of them have found their way on their BOT. They have a better AD and President situation. They upped their budget recently to the same as Xavier. And it’s still going to go up. They have spent $125 Million on 3 buildings all within the past 15 years when some of this board and admin changes have been taking place.

The factual points of reference I made matter. Let’s say it was Marquette. No Big East, no more Louisville and Cincy at the time over two conferences etc…difficult President, difficult board, less boosters, hire Soderberg (nothing against Brad who is a super nice guy who knows basketball) who wasn’t a coach who could do more with less. Have to scramble again, join another league and start over. Of course VCU, Dayton etc are going to be the bigger games, (I flew in town to see SLU beat Shaka by 16 at VCU, sold out and louder than when Novak hit the game winner over Notre Dame).

Fans want a competitive team playing repeated competitive games against other competitive teams. That’s how rivalries happen. Marquette has had some over the years with randoms like Pittsburgh (nothing like Aaron Gray at home on a Saturday night) or whomever because of those reasons.

I can say confidently that fan interest will not be an issue with SLU students, SLU fans, general fans. SLU has to do their part and be competitive and successful. When they are, the whole metro area goes to their games, watches them on tv etc…that’s how it works.

SLU already routinely plays many Big East Schools in other sports. If a competitive team plays competitive games…

https://twitter.com/slumenssoccer/status/1429230188387241989?s=21

If someone made a list of concerns this subtopic of fan interest would be at the bottom of the list. They would certainly have many more people who would watch Fox Sports 1 and Fox as opposed to now.

I can understand some people wanting to add Gonzaga, who wouldn’t.

But if SLU could be competitive with Marquette and some of those other schools in the past, without lots of the things they have in place now, there is little reason to believe they wouldn’t compete at a high level in the future.

On the one hand you don’t want to include some of SLU’s attendance stats that I referenced because they are too dated for you. But at the same time you want to mention Marquette’s historical success, much of which is half a century ago. Can’t have it both ways.

SLU made a decision to commit more to Athletics regardless in whatever league they play.

Again, as you have several times now in this thread, you have gotten defensive whenever I have mentioned MUBB results or lack of, to illustrate a greater point. Sometimes the truth hurts.

KO a Sweet 16. Crean a FF. Buzz 3 2nd weekends. 40 plus years.

I’ve been a long time MUBB Season Tix holder, so I know a thing or two about fan support and crowds. It’s only a matter of time for this year’s thread about Sweater vests, lack of student interest, covering part of the student section, why can’t MUBB get a bigger crowd on a weeknight against xyz school. Just a matter of time.

MUBB hasn’t won an NCAA Tourney game since Buzz left.

[shoothoops]

You really seem focused on Gonzaga, Lens.

Your thoughts on timing of the announcement (since you believe it is inevitable) ?

I'm not fully convinced it will happen but if so, questions remain about their non revenue sports teams and, of course, travel. My guess is that if they join the BE they may be allowed a certain amount of preferential treatment by the BE for scheduling conference games so that they can play two road games in three days. Just a wild idea but could they cut a deal with the WCC conference with $ involved to entice them to allow Gonzaga to leave their non revenue sports in the WCC?

He’s made the same post 6 times in a row in part because who wouldn’t want to add Gonzaga, and, part because the other two schools are a negative trigger for him. (Maybe he doesn’t want to see Hughes drop 40 on Bargen, or Fisher lock down Wade twice. Maybe some flashbacks there) Maybe there’s fear there if they could compete before without a hoops commitment, they’d probably compete a lot more with their recent ongoing new commitment to it.

Not sure why the other two schools were lumped together. Just because Dana O’Neil wrote an article that way, doesn’t make it so.

[The Lens]

I've made my posts bc Gonzaga is a darn near blue blood and Dayton & SLU are sooooo far off the national radar.  They are nothings.  I know Dayton had a GREAT run in 2020 but they're 84th in KenPom now.  SLU is 92nd. 

Gonzaga is a name.  It's a brand.  And oh by the way it's #1 in KenPom right now.  Let's look at Gonzaga during the NBE era:

KenPom: 

2022 = 1
2021 = 1
2020 = 2
2019 = 2
2018 = 10
2017 = 1
2016 = 21
2015 = 7
2014 = 24

Average KenPom ranking = 8

Should we do Dayton (73rd) or SLU (160th) now?

And while I won't pretend to know the timeline, I do know that people like Val don't publicly ponder opportunities like Gonzaga unless the deal is 85% done.   

[shoothoops]

I've made my posts bc Gonzaga is a darn near blue blood and Dayton & SLU are sooooo far off the national radar.  They are nothings.  I know Dayton had a GREAT run in 2020 but they're 84th in KenPom now.  SLU is 92nd. 

Gonzaga is a name.  It's a brand.  And oh by the way it's #1 in KenPom right now.  Let's look at Gonzaga during the NBE era:

KenPom: 

2022 = 1
2021 = 1
2020 = 2
2019 = 2
2018 = 10
2017 = 1
2016 = 21
2015 = 7
2014 = 24

Average KenPom ranking = 8

Should we do Dayton or SLU now?

And while I won't pretend to know the timeline, I do know that people like Val don't publicly ponder opportunities like Gonzaga unless the deal is 85% done.   

Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…

MUBB was 83rd in KenPom this past season. 8 Big East teams were not in the KenPom top 50 this past season. SLU had a better KenPom than all of them.

Preseason predictions are also fun. Matt Norlander has MUBB 105 and SLU in the top 68 NCAA Tourney field.

No one said they didn’t want to have Gonzaga for Men’s basketball.

[wadesworld]

Let’s do Marquette next. Or DePaul or St. John’s or Georgetown etc…

MUBB was 83rd in KenPom this past season. 8 Big East teams were not in the KenPom top 50 this past season. SLU had a better KenPom than all of them.

Preseason predictions are also fun. Matt Norlander has MUBB 105 and SLU in the top 68 NCAA Tourney field.

No one said they didn’t want to have Gonzaga for Men’s basketball.

We don't need to do Marquette next.  Marquette is already in the Big East.  And has had recent and historical success that SLU can't even dream of.  It would be like comparing Texas football to Memphis football.