More conference realignment talk

[rocky_warrior]

I'm not sure about the etiquette of copying posts from other sites so I suggest reading a very long post from  Gonzaga fan Murphy on the holyland site under the "Ackerman BE TV...." thread.

I actually wouldn't care if you copied, but a link would have at least been helpful so I didn't have to go track down this crap by myself
https://holylandofhoops.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7738&sid=e9a9a88f9ab26b58877a0d584c25acb3&start=60#p133196

[Skip Intro]

That was a very well-written and smart post.  The logistics and financials are well-thought out.  The next few months will be fascinating.  I hadn't taken into consideration the loss of BYU for the WCC.  That's a blow.

While the financials may make sense (or at least not be too large of a burden), I think it's the travel reality that will keep this from happening.  It might work if only the basketball teams joined the BE, but constant travel between coasts would quickly begin to hurt a team's performance and health.  Heck, pro teams have a really hard time with it.  I just don't see it being sustainable for soccer, track, tennis, etc.

[MU82]

I actually wouldn't care if you copied, but a link would have at least been helpful so I didn't have to go track down this crap by myself
https://holylandofhoops.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7738&sid=e9a9a88f9ab26b58877a0d584c25acb3&start=60#p133196

Thanks for the link. That's why you get the big bucks!

Very interesting read. I'd love to see the Zags join our conference. I don't think it will happen, but I'd love to be wrong about that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/oct/19/qa-new-gonzaga-ad-chris-standiford-on-mark-fews-su/

A few questions about conference realignment to Gonzaga's AD. He very loudly doesn't say no to the possibility of Gonzaga moving.

[forgetful]

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/oct/19/qa-new-gonzaga-ad-chris-standiford-on-mark-fews-su/

A few questions about conference realignment to Gonzaga's AD. He very loudly doesn't say no to the possibility of Gonzaga moving.

Interesting that he says the Big12 is certainly not done yet. Wonder what he thinks the next moves for them would be.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Interesting that he says the Big12 is certainly not done yet. Wonder what he thinks the next moves for them would be.

Big 12 expansion: Boise State, Memphis among schools being discussed as future conference additions
There may be a second round of expansion sooner than later in the Big 12
By Dennis Dodd
Sep 10, 2021 at 3:31 pm ET

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/big-12-expansion-boise-state-memphis-among-schools-being-discussed-as-future-conference-additions/

[Hards Alumni]

And they've been to the Elite 8 more recently than MU. 

Heck, they almost won it all in 1967!  (Which, of course, sounds ridiculous - until you realize that many here still act like the Al days are recent history.)

Butler made their way into the Big East with less of an all-time resume (albeit with a genius head coach at the time), and we're not worse off for having them in the league to this day.

Butler gives you Indianapolis market, Dayton gives you effing Dayton market.

Dayton would be a much worse addition than SLU.  By a couple million people.

[Skip Intro]

Butler gives you Indianapolis market, Dayton gives you effing Dayton market.

Dayton would be a much worse addition than SLU.  By a couple million people.

That's true.  So if a major requirement is the size of untapped markets, SLU should really be a no-brainer.  And UMass or Boston U should be in the conversation, too.  VCU or U of Richmond, too.  Davidson is basically in Charlotte, which is a huge market. 

People want Gonzaga in the BE because of their bball success, not because of the Spokane market.  I get the sense that a lot of posters here just really don't like Dayton as a city (which is fine), or have lingering anger from the years 1993-1995 when we shared a conference, which is pretty ridiculous. 

[panda]

That's true.  So if a major requirement is the size of untapped markets, SLU should really be a no-brainer.  And UMass or Boston U should be in the conversation, too.  VCU or U of Richmond, too.  Davidson is basically in Charlotte, which is a huge market. 

People want Gonzaga in the BE because of their bball success, not because of the Spokane market.  I get the sense that a lot of posters here just really don't like Dayton as a city (which is fine), or have lingering anger from the years 1993-1995 when we shared a conference, which is pretty ridiculous.

The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.

Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they're long down the pecking order.

That's somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.

Adding a market doesn't equal automatic eyes.

Add smart. Gonzaga is the only program I'd entertain. Dayton has a rabid fan base and sustained success but I still don't love their fit in the BE.

[Herman Cain]

I subscribe to Extra Points by Matt Brown, who focuses a lot on conference re-shuffling.  Here is what he had to say about AAC's addiions:

"Rather than focusing on established athletic brands with supportive fan bases, it appeared to me that the AAC instead went out and focused on markets, population centers, and potential.

I have to admit... I was not impressed with this argument. After all, that's essentially the exact same argument Conference USA used when they added programs like FAU, Charlotte and UTSA to the conference in the first place. It didn't work, as the Sun Belt passed Conference USA in almost every metric that matters. Does the AAC really think that a few million more in TV revenue and regular games against Memphis and South Florida will be enough to completely unlock the potential for these brands? Especially after some of them go through coaching changes?"

I think the ACC played the hand they were dealt. This growth market strategy was really their only possible move. Now they can at least make the claim that they are a geographically focused conference in the Southern Quadrant of the US ( one outlier Temple) .  They have density within the sub markets. 

The big plus the ACC still have is the ESPN contract , where some of their football games are broadcast on ABC. So for example if this realignment had taken place prior to this year, in theory a game between two top 25 teams in Texas  ( UTSA and SMU) would have been broadcast in a sold out Alamo dome.

Over time the AAC has had some good football teams, I think that will be the case going forward and they should be able to make some money on the football TV. Especially if some of the potential geographical rivalries take hold. I think the AAC has done enough to ensure their long term survival as a conference .

Of course it will be a long time before the ACC is ever a decent basketball conference in this new structure. That of course is a secondary consideration.
   

[Spotcheck Billy]

That's true.  So if a major requirement is the size of untapped markets, SLU should really be a no-brainer.  And UMass or Boston U should be in the conversation, too.  VCU or U of Richmond, too.  Davidson is basically in Charlotte, which is a huge market. 

People want Gonzaga in the BE because of their bball success, not because of the Spokane market.  I get the sense that a lot of posters here just really don't like Dayton as a city (which is fine), or have lingering anger from the years 1993-1995 when we shared a conference, which is pretty ridiculous. 

From what I have read several times lately, the BE expansion is not based on adding markets because Fox/FS1 etc. are already carried in most markets. I believe the ACC's latest media package was hinged more on adding streaming content.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.

Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they're long down the pecking order.

That's somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.

Adding a market doesn't equal automatic eyes.

It's not necessarily about adding eyes but rather adding channels to specific markets. Rutgers and Maryland were added to the B1G for the sole purpose of putting the B1G Network in millions of households in the NYC and DC metro areas...even though the vast majority of those households couldn't tell you what channel B1G Network was on.

With more and more people cutting the cord, I think the adding a market argument is getting weaker and weaker.

[Billy Hoyle]

I think the ACC played the hand they were dealt. This growth market strategy was really their only possible move. Now they can at least make the claim that they are a geographically focused conference in the Southern Quadrant of the US ( one outlier Temple) .  They have density within the sub markets. 

The big plus the ACC still have is the ESPN contract , where some of their football games are broadcast on ABC. So for example if this realignment had taken place prior to this year, in theory a game between two top 25 teams in Texas  ( UTSA and SMU) would have been broadcast in a sold out Alamo dome.

Over time the AAC has had some good football teams, I think that will be the case going forward and they should be able to make some money on the football TV. Especially if some of the potential geographical rivalries take hold. I think the AAC has done enough to ensure their long term survival as a conference .

Of course it will be a long time before the ACC is ever a decent basketball conference in this new structure. That of course is a secondary consideration.

The AAC adding two Texas schools wasn't about TV, it was about exposure for recruiting.

[The Lens]

Folks, this is a done deal, we're getting Gonzaga and its going to be awesome. 

The Big East doesn't do Dayton or SLU.  The goal is and always been to be the SEC Football of Hoops.

I'm really shocked people are debating any of this.  Val said it.  It's done. 

[roadwarrior3]

The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.

Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they're long down the pecking order.

That's somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.

Adding a market doesn't equal automatic eyes.

Add smart. Gonzaga is the only program I'd entertain. Dayton has a rabid fan base and sustained success but I still don't love their fit in the BE.

Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?

Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU hasn't cracked that list since 2001.

[shoothoops]

The size of market argument never really made much sense to me.

Even though Indy is a large market, Butler is probably the fourth most popular college program in the city. Add in the Pacers and Colts and they're long down the pecking order.

That's somewhat similar to many of the smaller schools in the conference who play in larger cities.

Adding a market doesn't equal automatic eyes.

Add smart. Gonzaga is the only program I'd entertain. Dayton has a rabid fan base and sustained success but I still don't love their fit in the BE.

One of the discussion points regarding SLU, among several, has been past sustained success. SLU has made the same amount of NCAA Tourneys the past 30 years as Dayton. They both also have made the same amount amount in the past decade.(4)

[Uncle Rico]

Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?

Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU hasn't cracked that list since 2001.

The Big East isn't adding either, so it's not worth arguing about

[shoothoops]

Agree with this. How many people watch UWM play? Does the Milwaukee market bring a huge impact to the Horizon League?

Dayton is consistently in the top 25 for annual attendance. SLU has cracked that list since 2001.

1) It's about being competitive. When a team is competitive, they get fans.

2) It's about the size of the venue. Spoon Ball was top 25 national attendance, 17k a game, playing in a large arena. In 2008, their on campus arena opened which is similar in size to Xavier's Cintas Center. 10k. They have filled it up at much higher prices when Majerus and Ford have been competitive etc...

Fan interest isn't an issue. This is their game at SLU January, 2020 just before the pandemic:

https://twitter.com/slunaticsstl/status/1216886384532869120?s=21

[roadwarrior3]

The Big East isn't adding either, so it's not worth arguing about

I think over the next few years you may be in for a rude awakening if you think the league will be content sitting at 11 or 12 members. Sure the talk now might be on only adding "one" but the league will grow to 16-18 members, it is only a matter of time. Just look at any other major conference ever. It's happened to every single one of them. More teams =  greater geographic reach, more marquee games for television, more teams making NCAA appearances etc.

The focus is going to be on adding schools who have strong programs, demonstrated success, and will be able to maintain the basketball focus without later being recruited by a bigger conference for football. When looking at schools that fall in that bucket, SLU and Dayton are two of the names at the top of the list.

[The Lens]

I think over the next few years you may be in for a rude awakening if you think the league will be content sitting at 11 or 12 members. Sure the talk now might be on only adding "one" but the league will grow to 16-18 members, it is only a matter of time. Just look at any other major conference ever. It's happened to every single one of them. More teams =  greater geographic reach, more marquee games for television, more teams making NCAA appearances etc.

The focus is going to be on adding schools who have strong programs, demonstrated success, and will be able to maintain the basketball focus without later being recruited by a bigger conference for football. When looking at schools that fall in that bucket, SLU and Dayton are two of the names at the top of the list.

Dude, there are three candidates for the Big East:

Kansas, Notre Dame & Gonzaga.  Only 1 is happening.  Adding Dayton (lol) or SLU (lolololololol) does nothing for the conference.

[JakeBarnes]

Folks, this is a done deal, we're getting Gonzaga and its going to be awesome. 

The Big East doesn't do Dayton or SLU.  The goal is and always been to be the SEC Football of Hoops.

I'm really shocked people are debating any of this.  Val said it.  It's done.

I like it. This got me hyped.

[Billy Hoyle]

I like it. This got me hyped.

If there's another Gonzaga besides the one in Spokane then don't get too hyped.

[Galway Eagle]

1) It's about being competitive. When a team is competitive, they get fans.

Ah the part that Wojo missed

Fan interest isn't an issue. This is their game at SLU January, 2020 just before the pandemic:
https://twitter.com/slunaticsstl/status/1216886384532869120?s=21

To be fair if they leave that arena on a Friday they're stuck in St Louis...

If there's another Gonzaga besides the one in Spokane then don't get too hyped.

You need to be more SpoCAN not SpoCANT

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think over the next few years you may be in for a rude awakening if you think the league will be content sitting at 11 or 12 members. Sure the talk now might be on only adding "one" but the league will grow to 16-18 members, it is only a matter of time. Just look at any other major conference ever. It's happened to every single one of them. More teams =  greater geographic reach, more marquee games for television, more teams making NCAA appearances etc.

The focus is going to be on adding schools who have strong programs, demonstrated success, and will be able to maintain the basketball focus without later being recruited by a bigger conference for football. When looking at schools that fall in that bucket, SLU and Dayton are two of the names at the top of the list.

Maybe. The PAC 12 bucked that trend. They voted on expansion a month or so ago and decided against it. The Big 12 supposedly is exploring further expansion but hasn't pulled the trigger. The ACC has sat at 14.5 teams for awhile now and the B1G at 14. Really only the SEC has moved to the 16-18 team range and they're at 16.

I think the law of diminishing returns comes into play. The reality is, there just isn't that many valuable programs to justify all of the top conferences moving to 16-18. If I had to guess, I think the Big East moves to 12 by adding Gonzaga and stands pat for awhile. I don't think they need to rush additions. They can hold tight and see how the landscape shifts in the future. Maybe Kansas does become more than a pipe dream. After all, many here declared that UConn was never ever ever going to join the BEast and they were wrong. Many have declared that Gonzaga was never ever ever going to join the BEast and it appears they may be wrong in the nearish future. We are at the top of the basketball-only food chain and can afford to be choosy.

[Billy Hoyle]

1) It's about being competitive. When a team is competitive, they get fans.

2) It's about the size of the venue. Spoon Ball was top 25 national attendance, 17k a game, playing in a large arena. In 2008, their on campus arena opened which is similar in size to Xavier's Cintas Center. 10k. They have filled it up at much higher prices when Majerus and Ford have been competitive etc...

Fan interest isn't an issue. This is their game at SLU January, 2020 just before the pandemic:

https://twitter.com/slunaticsstl/status/1216886384532869120?s=21

that't nice, they showed up for a top 5 team. How is the student section looking against Fordham, Duquense, Richmond, basically anyone other than Dayton? Why not pics of the 5200 fans who showed up for Duquense or 5100 for St. Joe's?